Hello Luke,
two ideas:
Have you ever thought aboat contacting Fairphone? They have similar goals. Maybe you could write an guest-article on their blog. - It would be great, if you could partner with them in the future for producing the Card with their fair substances and fairer working conditions.
Would it be possible to get a card wit preinstalled nextcloud?
Wolfgang
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Wolfgang Romey (hier) hier@wolfgangromey.de wrote:
Hello Luke,
two ideas:
Have you ever thought aboat contacting Fairphone?
yeahhh... i've been in touch with them in the past (when i was in holland). even after the hard lessons of the GPL-violating Mediatek "abandonware" they still haven't really got the message, bless 'em, having gone with a spyware-riding Qualcomm chipset for the second version.
They have similar goals. Maybe you could write an guest-article on their blog. - It would be great, if you could partner with them in the future for producing the Card with their fair substances and fairer working conditions.
have you heard the phrase, "sometimes you just gotta let the train-wreck happen"? Fairphone's team are trying hard: their hearts are in the right place, but they have tackled something that has ethical implications which can only be fully understood if you have an *EXTREME* technical background and knowledge-set.
the Fairphone team unfortunately do *NOT* yet have the level of technical knowledge required to understand that their ethical goals simply CANNOT be met without that full technical knowledge and background.
i've tried... several people have also independently tried... they're "Not Getting The Message"... so we just have to "let the train-wreck happen".
give it another 2 years: when their second phone also turns into a privacy and land-fill train-wreck due to qualcomm "abandonware" policies, security vulnerabilities and privacy violations from the qualcomm chipset, causing people to throw ANOTHER $EUR 500 phone into landfill in disgust, **THEN** they will be ready to listen.
Would it be possible to get a card wit preinstalled nextcloud?
i don't see why not - what is it?
l.
Hello Luke,
Am Freitag, 29. Juli 2016, 19:58:08 schrieb Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton:
Would it be possible to get a card wit preinstalled nextcloud?
i don't see why not - what is it?
Oh, I am surprized. I thought you would know everything :-)
Nextcloud is the fork of owncloud, which allows you to setup your private cloud with calendar, contacts and so on and for example allows you to federate with other clouds.
Wolfgang
Hello Luke,
I am a bit surprized about your harsh reaction, but do not want to open a discussion about fairphone.
You are right, that they started with a task, which is gigantic, but they learned and hopefully will learn more. Some aspects which are for ME important:
- they will offering an update of the os for the fairphone I. I has been hard work as they made mistakes in the beginning, but they succeeded. For my two years old LG-D855 there is no update in sight.
- they offer a google-free android for the fairphone II and it will be possible to install other OSs like Sailfish or Ubuntu mobil. They try to built a community
- they got 10 points on ifixit for the easy way to repair it and their modular construction.
- the are using more conflict free minerals and there are better working conditions in as with the great players.
Do you know any other smartphone, which is a better choicel than the Fairphone?
Wolfgang
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Wolfgang Romey hier@wolfgangromey.de wrote:
Hello Luke,
I am a bit surprized about your harsh reaction, but do not want to open a discussion about fairphone.
it's not harsh - it's realistic. the evidence comes from their own forums, with people asking them for security updates... which they *COULDN'T PROVIDE* because they had based the Fairphone 1 around an "abandonware" Mediatek GPL-violating processor.
.... all they had to do was ask people in the software libre community, "what's the best processor and design strategy to use which will help us fufill the ethical sustainable considerations that we hold dear".... they didn't do that... end-result: landfill.
You are right, that they started with a task, which is gigantic, but they learned and hopefully will learn more. Some aspects which are for ME important:
- they will offering an update of the os for the fairphone I. I has been hard
work as they made mistakes in the beginning, but they succeeded. For my two years old LG-D855 there is no update in sight.
why are _they_ offering it? why are they not providing full source so that people can do the updates themselves?
- they offer a google-free android for the fairphone II and it will be possible
to install other OSs like Sailfish or Ubuntu mobil. They try to built a community
interesting. so it looks like they're learning from the really hard lesson of the Fairphone 1. that's really good.
- they got 10 points on ifixit for the easy way to repair it and their modular
construction.
- the are using more conflict free minerals and there are better working
conditions in as with the great players.
fantastic. except they're not big enough to deal with the cartels in the LCD manufacturing in order to ensure that conflict-free minerals and manufacturing techniques are used there. it's a start though...
Do you know any other smartphone, which is a better choicel than the Fairphone?
*sigh* because of the spying that goes on through the modems, not a single one of the smartphones can be considered "a better choice". i have a stricter set of ethical criteria than they do, and will not *use* a smartphone until i have full control over the hardware. i would rather do without one.
i used to own *9* smartphones - i was involved in the xanadux.sf.net project behind xda-developers before it became really popular (due to android). look up the irc logs on #htc-linux dating back to 2003.
i've just set up a page http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/ lot happening in a very short amount of time. this proposed phone design has a hardware kill-switch on the modem. cuts the power entirely.
l.
Am Freitag, 29. Juli 2016, 22:20:17 schrieb Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton:
it's not harsh - it's realistic. the evidence comes from their own forums, with people asking them for security updates... which they *COULDN'T PROVIDE* because they had based the Fairphone 1 around an "abandonware" Mediatek GPL-violating processor.
Of course, they made that mistake, but now they are delivering security- updates for the fairphone I.
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/06/30/fairphone-1-upgrade-to-android-kitkat-4...
.... all they had to do was ask people in the software libre community, "what's the best processor and design strategy to use which will help us fufill the ethical sustainable considerations that we hold dear".... they didn't do that... end-result: landfill.
Yes. But they do care about landfill: https://www.fairphone.com/2016/07/14/closing-the-loop-the-garbage-collectors...
Is there any other smartphone producer, which is doing that too?
This is another example:
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/04/22/from-the-factory-to-you-packaging-the-f...
why are _they_ offering it? why are they not providing full source so that people can do the updates themselves?
You are of course right, but they learned for the Fairphone II:
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/04/28/releasing-the-fairphone-2-open-operatin...
- they got 10 points on ifixit for the easy way to repair it and their
modular construction.
- the are using more conflict free minerals and there are better working
conditions in as with the great players.
fantastic. except they're not big enough to deal with the cartels in the LCD manufacturing in order to ensure that conflict-free minerals and manufacturing techniques are used there. it's a start though...
You too are not big enough to deal with the cartells, But as far as I understand it, there is nut much need to deal with them at this point. But, if you wanted to be shure, that the EOMA68-Card only used conflict free materials and was produced under acceptable conditions, which is an ethical aspect too, you you would have to go a long way. I think, Fairphone did not choose the right starting point. Your's seems to me a lot better.
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/ lot happening in a very short amount of time. this proposed phone design has a hardware kill-switch on the modem. cuts the power entirely.
It would be great, if this could be come to life too.
Wolfgang
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Wolfgang Romey hier@wolfgangromey.de wrote:
Am Freitag, 29. Juli 2016, 22:20:17 schrieb Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton:
it's not harsh - it's realistic. the evidence comes from their own forums, with people asking them for security updates... which they *COULDN'T PROVIDE* because they had based the Fairphone 1 around an "abandonware" Mediatek GPL-violating processor.
Of course, they made that mistake, but now they are delivering security- updates for the fairphone I.
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/06/30/fairphone-1-upgrade-to-android-kitkat-4...
goood.... but are they providing the full source code? if not, they're actually operating as a *Criminal Cartel* - as an Organised Crime Syndicate! and it's illegal to fund organised crime. this is not a joke.
.... all they had to do was ask people in the software libre community, "what's the best processor and design strategy to use which will help us fufill the ethical sustainable considerations that we hold dear".... they didn't do that... end-result: landfill.
Yes. But they do care about landfill: https://www.fairphone.com/2016/07/14/closing-the-loop-the-garbage-collectors...
Is there any other smartphone producer, which is doing that too?
there's several that indirectly reduce e-waste, they're listed on the phonebloks.com web site. irony is that there's no common standard between any of them to share components.... whoops...
This is another example:
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/04/22/from-the-factory-to-you-packaging-the-f...
why are _they_ offering it? why are they not providing full source so that people can do the updates themselves?
You are of course right, but they learned for the Fairphone II:
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/04/28/releasing-the-fairphone-2-open-operatin...
hooray!
- they got 10 points on ifixit for the easy way to repair it and their
modular construction.
- the are using more conflict free minerals and there are better working
conditions in as with the great players.
fantastic. except they're not big enough to deal with the cartels in the LCD manufacturing in order to ensure that conflict-free minerals and manufacturing techniques are used there. it's a start though...
You too are not big enough to deal with the cartells,
i'm dealing with that by picking LCDs that are so hugely mass-produced (and also not using MIPI) that they *have* to be "open".
But as far as I understand it, there is nut much need to deal with them at this point. But, if you wanted to be shure, that the EOMA68-Card only used conflict free materials and was produced under acceptable conditions, which is an ethical aspect too, you you would have to go a long way. I think, Fairphone did not choose the right starting point. Your's seems to me a lot better.
*sigh* i wish i had their marketing expertise though.
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/ lot happening in a very short amount of time. this proposed phone design has a hardware kill-switch on the modem. cuts the power entirely.
It would be great, if this could be come to life too.
working on it. slowly. one thing at a time.
Wolfgang
Wolfgang Romey Krokusstraße 37 47249 Duisburg
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On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/ lot happening in a very short amount of time. this proposed phone design has a hardware kill-switch on the modem. cuts the power entirely.
It would be great, if this could be come to life too.
working on it. slowly. one thing at a time.
btw, one of the reasons for starting a smart-ish phone with a hard kill switch on the modem is down to a story where i accidentally found out that there are over-the-air arbitrary remote code execution paths in these modems.
i had been asked by dr stallman to investigate the possibility of hard-disabling firmware updates in a 3G modem. the sales person that i spoke to *misunderstood* my enquiry, and accidentally answered the question "is it possible for governments or other third parties to arbitrarily load and run executables over-the-air without the end-user's knowledge?" with an implicit "yes".
we also know that this feature is something that Telit provide and actively advertise as part of their Industrial and Automotive modem series, but with Telit's range that is something that is definitely desirable (to be able to fix any software bugs in a modem which could be embedded absolutely in the remotest or most hostile and inaccessible environments, used for Telemetry data gathering).
the accidental example however was *NOT* an industrial 3G modem - it was an end-user "mobile phone" 3G modem that is commonly-used in smartphones and tablets.
so this is not a theoretical exercise: modem manufacturers are forced to provide back-door paths for spying purposes without end-user's knowledge, hence the need for open transparent hardware and hard kill-switches on all and any components that can't be audited.
l.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Almost all non-iPhone phones come with what I would argue as a pretty effective such 'kill switch' device -- a removable battery.
Or am I seeing an insufficient number of daggers in the shadows...? I mean, I figure Google and the NSA already know me better than I do, and I don't really care, because I've nothing to hide and I don't feel like being afraid all the time. Oh -- and I think that "having nothing to hide" is a very good security policy.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Almost all non-iPhone phones come with what I would argue as a pretty effective such 'kill switch' device -- a removable battery.
that doesn't allow you to write messages or prepare responses or access the calendar or anything else.
the scenario that such a phone covers is one that was covered by Dr Stallman at Hope2016: i attended his talk. he explained that by having a hard kill-switch on the radio part of the phone you can prepare some communications using the device such that when *you* are ready to move to a location where *you* feel comfortable sending and receiving a pre-arranged batch of messages and calls, you may do so.
this covers the scenario where you know from experience that there is a high probability that your activities could result in death or imprisonment for yourself or others. under such circumstances you want to ABSOLUTELY minimise the time spent online. the actual sending and receiving may only take seconds or minutes - you may not feel comfortable being in the open even amongst a large crowd of people doing that. but if you have to SIT THERE writing the communications, the chances of being arrested or murdered go up with every second spent in one place.
under such persecuted circumstances where terrorists are after you (we don't call them "government authorities" - we call them by what they are: individuals operating outside of all known ethical and humanitarian frameworks, whose actions are DESIGNED to terrorise others), a device on which you could write messages with the radio switched off could actually save your life.
Or am I seeing an insufficient number of daggers in the shadows...? I mean, I figure Google and the NSA already know me better than I do, and I don't really care, because I've nothing to hide and I don't feel like being afraid all the time. Oh -- and I think that "having nothing to hide" is a very good security policy.
yeahh... i've heard this argument before. then when mafia organisations start to work out how to use the same backdoors, or the police start to get bribes from criminals to allow access to the database, or you just get people with access to the devices downloading people's private pictures and having a laugh at them, or start selling pictures of your children to child pornography groups, or when you do the research and find that minority groups STOP TALKING TO EACH OTHER even if they SUSPECT that their conversations could be listened into and they could be killed or jailed for expressing their opinion...
so the bottom line is, chris, *you* don't have anything to hide... *at the moment*.
l.
Or am I seeing an insufficient number of daggers in the shadows...? I mean, I figure Google and the NSA already know me better than I do, and I don't really care, because I've nothing to hide and I don't feel like being afraid all the time. Oh -- and I think that "having nothing to hide" is a very good security policy.
I would agree on this point. So, security itself is not issue for most of ppl.
But there must be business case where it is.
@luke -- I'll agree with you on the first point. I hadn't thought of that one.
The second, though... someone would have to plant something to get me. I've thought about that. I'm so clean, I squeak. I *may* have one or two skeletons from forever ago -- but I can guarantee you quite nicely that the statute of limitations has long since run out on anything I was ever stupid enough to do when I was younger -- and I'm not stupid any more ;) I suppose if someone wanted to blackmail me and was *really* desperate, they might find something, but I'd be quite surprised. Besides. The other half of my security policy is to do my best not to make enemies in the first place ;)
You cannot know, if you have nothing to hide. Maybe eating meat or drinking beer or smoking or having read the wrong books and papers will in the future turn against you. Wolfgang
Am 30. Juli 2016 20:22:12 MESZ, schrieb Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com:
@luke -- I'll agree with you on the first point. I hadn't thought of that one.
The second, though... someone would have to plant something to get me. I've thought about that. I'm so clean, I squeak. I *may* have one or two skeletons from forever ago -- but I can guarantee you quite nicely that the statute of limitations has long since run out on anything I was ever stupid enough to do when I was younger -- and I'm not stupid any more ;) I suppose if someone wanted to blackmail me and was *really* desperate, they might find something, but I'd be quite surprised. Besides. The other half of my security policy is to do my best not to make enemies in the first place ;)
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I find the chances of that rather low, and predictably so. Possible, yes, but not likely. And I do not partake in anything stronger than caffeine.
I'll save my worrying for when there's obvious harbingers of incoming trouble. We're *definitely* not there right now.
On 7/30/2016 1:31 PM, hier@wolfgangromey.de wrote:
You cannot know, if you have nothing to hide. Maybe eating meat or drinking beer or smoking or having read the wrong books and papers will in the future turn against you. Wolfgang
Or having the wrong nationality or ethnicity or religion (or no religion), depending on who's in power.
Matt
Tell you what. I'll start worrying under one of three conditions. One, Donald Trump actually wins in November. Two, he doesn't win and instead those who voted for him actively begin a second US Civil War. Three, some outside group creates conditions that mandate a World War III.
Those right now are, in entirety, the things that are on my SJHTF radar, and they are listed in order of presumed likelihood.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 7:36 PM, Matt Campbell mattcampbell@pobox.com wrote:
On 7/30/2016 1:31 PM, hier@wolfgangromey.de wrote:
You cannot know, if you have nothing to hide. Maybe eating meat or drinking beer or smoking or having read the wrong books and papers will in the future turn against you. Wolfgang
Or having the wrong nationality or ethnicity or religion (or no religion), depending on who's in power.
... yeah how did that work out in pohl pot's regime?
l.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 7:31 PM, hier@wolfgangromey.de wrote:
You cannot know, if you have nothing to hide. Maybe eating meat or drinking beer or smoking or having read the wrong books and papers will in the future turn against you. Wolfgang
welcome to 1984...
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 7:15 PM, Hrvoje Lasic lasich@gmail.com wrote:
Or am I seeing an insufficient number of daggers in the shadows...? I mean, I figure Google and the NSA already know me better than I do, and I don't really care, because I've nothing to hide and I don't feel like being afraid all the time. Oh -- and I think that "having nothing to hide" is a very good security policy.
I would agree on this point. So, security itself is not issue for most of ppl.
But there must be business case where it is.
well the simplest business case for the average end-user is: it saves a lot of battery life and money! you only use bandwidth when you switch the modem on.... and all those apps that monitor you and waste your money... all gone.
l.
* Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net [160730 19:41]:
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/ lot happening in a very short amount of time. this proposed phone design has a hardware kill-switch on the modem. cuts the power entirely.
It would be great, if this could be come to life too.
working on it. slowly. one thing at a time.
btw, one of the reasons for starting a smart-ish phone with a hard kill switch on the modem is down to a story where i accidentally found out that there are over-the-air arbitrary remote code execution paths in these modems.
i had been asked by dr stallman to investigate the possibility of hard-disabling firmware updates in a 3G modem. the sales person that i spoke to *misunderstood* my enquiry, and accidentally answered the question "is it possible for governments or other third parties to arbitrarily load and run executables over-the-air without the end-user's knowledge?" with an implicit "yes".
This is part of the GSM standard. The SIMs need to be able to run Java applets insider their processor. Allowing the tracking of the device amongst other things. This has been made public in 2013:
https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5449_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312271715_-_mobile_net...
Kind regards,
Christian
-- May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from suffering, and may you live with ease.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Christian Kellermann ckeen@pestilenz.org wrote:
- Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net [160730 19:41]:
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/hybrid_phone/ lot happening in a very short amount of time. this proposed phone design has a hardware kill-switch on the modem. cuts the power entirely.
It would be great, if this could be come to life too.
working on it. slowly. one thing at a time.
btw, one of the reasons for starting a smart-ish phone with a hard kill switch on the modem is down to a story where i accidentally found out that there are over-the-air arbitrary remote code execution paths in these modems.
i had been asked by dr stallman to investigate the possibility of hard-disabling firmware updates in a 3G modem. the sales person that i spoke to *misunderstood* my enquiry, and accidentally answered the question "is it possible for governments or other third parties to arbitrarily load and run executables over-the-air without the end-user's knowledge?" with an implicit "yes".
This is part of the GSM standard. The SIMs need to be able to run Java applets insider their processor. Allowing the tracking of the device amongst other things. This has been made public in 2013:
jaezuss. ok thank you.
https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5449_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312271715_-_mobile_net...
Kind regards,
Christian
-- May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from suffering, and may you live with ease.
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oops.... quotes from code.fairphone.com....
M.Stramm M.Stramm • 4 months ago
Pretty bad not bad enough? Well, the legalese gets worse:
"This Agreement can be terminated in writing by Fairphone, at any time, without prior notice. Upon termination, you must destroy the Software, all backup copies, and all related material."
How do I truly own a phone that's based on software I can be legally forced to destroy at any time for any reason by the manufacturer?
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Wolfgang Romey hier@wolfgangromey.de wrote:
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/06/30/fairphone-1-upgrade-to-android-kitkat-4...
goood.... but are they providing the full source code? if not, they're actually operating as a *Criminal Cartel* - as an Organised Crime Syndicate! and it's illegal to fund organised crime. this is not a joke.
Yes. But they do care about landfill:
https://www.fairphone.com/2016/07/14/closing-the-loop-the-garbage-collectors...
Is there any other smartphone producer, which is doing that too?
yes, lets start from Apple
http://www.apple.com/recycling/
Actually, every electronic device imported in EU will be recycled. Manufacturers (or importers) pay some fee at the time they put device on market and in theory there is some on other side of cycle who is responsible for collecting and recycling. Companies doing recycling are not only paid by this money but also there is money to be made from raw materials.
In third world countries there might be a problem but as I said garbage is not garbage but opportunity to make some money so as long as there is system organized it will be done. Certain % of devices can not be recycled.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Hrvoje Lasic lasich@gmail.com wrote:
Actually, every electronic device imported in EU will be recycled. Manufacturers (or importers) pay some fee at the time they put device on market and in theory there is some on other side of cycle who is responsible for collecting and recycling. Companies doing recycling are not only paid by this money but also there is money to be made from raw materials.
i think it was phil who mentioned that the concentration of heavy and rare earth metals is now higher in landfill sites than they are in the original mines...
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net
wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Hrvoje Lasic lasich@gmail.com wrote:
Actually, every electronic device imported in EU will be recycled. Manufacturers (or importers) pay some fee at the time they put device on market and in theory there is some on other side of cycle who is
responsible
for collecting and recycling. Companies doing recycling are not only
paid by
this money but also there is money to be made from raw materials.
i think it was phil who mentioned that the concentration of heavy and rare earth metals is now higher in landfill sites than they are in the original mines...
truth
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