arm-netbook June 2017

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42 participants
41 discussions

Re: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv
by ronwirring＠Safe-mail.net 14 Jun '17

14 Jun '17

-------- Original Message -------- From: Neil Jansen <njansen1(a)gmail.com> Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces(a)lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-netbook(a)lists.phcomp.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 11:07:56 -0400 Thank you for the information. I have watched a rutkowska video on how complicated intel's management features are. Difficult. > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 11:54 AM, <ronwirring(a)safe-mail.net> wrote: > > > It was very informative. A lot of the technical matter I did not > understand. > > This was a GREAT talk. Thanks for the link. > > > Can you explain: > > 23.04 The 2 lowermost boxes? > > 1) PDK / Foundries. The factories in which the chips are made in. They're > not open. They're proprietary and there's a implication of trust. > 2) Equipment / Raw Materials. The equipment that makes the chips and the > raw materials that go into the chips. All a very cloudy and and murky area > that is not open, and very proprietary. > > He's basically saying that those that want *100%* open source hardware > would require infinite recursion down to the raw components, which is > impossible. That's the whole point of the talk. The 'impedance mismatch' > thing is a sort of metaphor to describe the unrealistic expectations of > those idealists that want 100% open source hardware. He's saying it cannot > happen today. And BTW I've met Bunnie on several occasions, he's legit, > and you can trust what he's saying to be technically correct. He's the > real deal. > > > What is a stepper? > > A stepper motor. That is, do you trust the motors that move the machines > that made the integrated circuits? > > > What is fuse? > > See this link: > https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/1262/what-are-atmel-fuses > > > > 25.15 The 4 lowermost boxes? > > * BIOS > * Firmware > * Hidden / fused silicon blocks - Blocks of silicon on the chip that aren't > usually turned on, but are there. Lots of big vendors are doing this now: > Intel, AMD, Nvidia, and it's anyone's guess as to what their real purpose > is. That leads to conspiracy theories, as Bunnie said. This is a problem > because if you put a chip like this into an open source laptop, it begs the > question of what would happen if something turned on that section and > started execution code from it? Nobody will know until (A) documentation > is leaked from the company or (B) someone reverse engineers it. Basically > if you use anything application processor chip made in the last 5-10 years, > you probably have some hidden / fused silicon blocks doing god knows what. > * Pre-boot microcode - Microcode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcode) > that executes BEFORE your computer boots. This is a big deal, because > everything that happens after this point can be considered suspect. > (similar to how a boot virus would spread because it executes first). > * IP industry practices - Intellectual property used by silicon > manufacturers that are not open. What he's saying is, say that you're a > silicon vendor and you just bought a intellectual property from ARM to make > an ARM chip. They're giving you HDL (hardware description language) and > netlists (a large list of the connections to be made in the die), and guess > what, they gave them to you encrypted so that their intellectual property > is safe. You (the guy that runs a third party chip factory) cannot review > or inspect the intellectual property that ARM gave you. The point here is > that unless you're using an open source (RISC-V, etc) core, then using an > ARM isn't really 100% open source hardware. > * Mask trojans & glitches - These are malicious things in the CPU die > itself, that even if you were looking at the silicon die under a microscope > and studying it, you'd still completely miss it. Very nasty but they Remarkable that you cannot do a verification using a microscope. > exist. Hackaday.com has a lot of interesting articles that break these > sort of things down in layman's terms. Very interesting. Basically > because these exist, there's no way to know that you are really executing > what you think you are executing unless you built the foundry and > supervised the chips being made, and analyzed everything that went into the > manufacture of them. It's a trust problem. > > These are all highly complex subjects that hardware engineers like Bunnie > deal with a lot, and other (I'll say idealist) software guys probably have > never thought of. They're important in that when you realize that they're > there, you will then understand how silly wanting 100% open hardware really > is. It's a huge problem that hardly anybody is trying to fix. > > > Recently the 6502 was completely dissected and recreated, so that's one of > the only fully documented (and I'd say fully trusted) cores out there > today. And that was made probably before I was born. Everything since > that should be assumed to be compromised and < 100% open. Oh, and even > then, the 6502 would have to hook up to OTHER chips like flash, RAM, and > whatever generates the video and handles the peripherals. Those have not > been completely dissected, and could be suspect. Do you see what Bunnie > means now? That's the impedance mismatch. > > We should have libre software hdds and ram. > P.S. my apologies to LKCL and others, I don't have a plain text email > client. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook(a)lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook(a)files.phcomp.co.uk

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Re: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv
by ronwirring＠Safe-mail.net 14 Jun '17

14 Jun '17

From: Neil Jansen <njansen1(a)gmail.com> > On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 4:38 PM, <ronwirring(a)safe-mail.net> wrote: > > Thank you for the information. > > I have watched a rutkowska video on how complicated > > intel's management features are. > > Difficult. > > That's why I'm here, lol. The Intel stuff is getting bad enough that it > has me wondering what I can do for the open source hardware world. Moving > to ARM via EOMA68 is a good near-term solution, but even that's not going > to be 100% trustable at lest by bunnie's standards in the lecture. > Something like RISC-V has the potential to get there, but as he pointed > out, even that's not completely open. I think right now the important > thing is to just be an early adopter of this stuff to show that the > market's there. bunnie broke the demographics down pretty well, there's > definitely money to be made. Back to Intel though. It makes me want to > jump on eBay and pick up some older vintage Intel CPU's that didn't have > the management features, but obviously there's no way to know if those > aren't blown wide open by other means. Man, very interesting times we live > in. > > > > Remarkable that you cannot do a verification using a microscope. > > You can do exactly this, and it'll get you to maybe 99% of the way there. > Companies like ChipWorks do exactly this for money. Others do it for hobby > (see: http://www.visual6502.org/, http://siliconpr0n.org/, > https://zeptobars.com/en/, http://www.righto.com/). It can often get great > results. bunnie was playing devils advocate by saying even if you did > this, there are still things that can be present but in an obfuscated > manner, that could be malicious or careless. This doesn't really mean to > throw the baby out with the bathwater. Having a reverse engineered CPU > with a small possibility of shenanigans is still better than having a 100% > proprietary CPU or a 50% proprietary CPU. Security through obscurity and > all that. > > > > We should have libre software hdds and ram. > > Can you elaborate on that a bit? I don't understand what you mean. https://www.theverge.com/2015/2/16/8048243/nsa-hard-drive-firmware-virus-st… Devices like hdd, ram, sd card have their own system software. You cannot access it and do not know what it can do. https://opencores.org/ > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook(a)lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook(a)files.phcomp.co.uk

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Re: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet toacceptapccard
by ronwirring＠Safe-mail.net 13 Jun '17

13 Jun '17

> On 10/06/17 06:03, ronwirring(a)Safe-mail.net wrote: > > About the battery. If I can find an usb power bank having the right > > specifications, I could then use the power bank to power the > > computer and if I wanted to be able to charge the battery and > > have the computer turned on at the same time, I could get > > a charger with 2 usb connectors? > > With a power bank this might work, because they (AFAIK) all have their > charging circuitry inside the power bank and take a straight-up voltage > source to charge. It won't make too much difference how you connect them > as long as you have adequate gauge wires for all connections. > > If you're dealing with Li-ion cells, it's not recommended. It has to do > with how Li-ion charging works. In short the charge schedule (most > notable in a "fast" charge, meaning anything less than 5 hours or so) is > constant current at a rate the battery can handle to voltage, and then > constant voltage as the current tapers off to nearly nothing. > > The upshot of this is that trying to power a device with the > battery/charger combo while charging the battery will confuse any decent > charger (and if it isn't a decent charger you SHOULD NOT use it). The > only way around this is a charge controller designed for such use that > has three sets of terminals. One for a source, one for battery, and one > for load. The charge controller is then able to distinguish the load > from the battery charge current and charge it intelligently. Your lowermost section, I do not follow. Let us assume you somehow are able to get the battery bank into the computer's cabinet. Let us say, you use an usb port on the usb battery bank to both charge the usb battery bank and power supply the pc card. In order to power the pc card, you would have an usb cable connecting the power bank and the pc card. I have no power banks. Looking around, it appears power banks have a port for getting charged and one for power supplying devices. In general, are you sure, you cannot charge a power bank and simultaneously have it power supplying a device? If the power bank can be charged and power supply a device simultaneously you would connect another usb cable from the charger which charges the power bank to the power bank. Else if the power bank gets empty, you would remove the usb cable connecting the power bank and the pc card. Then connect an usb cable from the charger of the power bank to the power bank. I suggest to use a https://www.att.com/chargers/att-42a-dual-usb-low-draw-universal-wall-charg… if you want to charge the power bank and turn on the pc card at the same time. One usb cable from the charger to the power bank. One usb cable form the charger to the pc card. > > Tor > > -- > Tor Chantara > http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ > 808-828-1107 > GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB > *Be wary of unsigned emails* > Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook(a)lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook(a)files.phcomp.co.uk

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Re: [Arm-netbook] why are notebook devices not usb?
by David Niklas 13 Jun '17

13 Jun '17

On Sat, 27 May 2017 18:56:18 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl(a)lkcl.net> wrote: > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Christopher Havel > <laserhawk64(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Money. It's cheaper to do it that way.. > > yyep. this s pretty much.. errr... on the money > > > There's also the form factor to consider -- to an extent, there are no > > standards for laptop gadgetry because there's no way to do that. > > Different laptop sizes and shapes require differently-sized and > > -shaped crap inside. > > ... all completely optimised and customised based around what they > can get hold of, or what the reference design from intel is (which > will have specific power requirements and thermal requirements)...then > there is the constant demand for "thin-ness" which, as chris says, > means that a CUSTOM CONNECTOR gets ordered and made... and you can't > get hold of them. > > ron i wrote a long time ago when developing the tablet, about using a > single embedded controller which only costs $1, instead of putting in > a $1 USB hub, a $1.50 USB camera, a $1 USB audio IC and so on. <snip> Do you still know where your write up is? Thanks, David

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EOMA68 card news
by Nick Hardiman 12 Jun '17

12 Jun '17

Where should I look for news about EOMA68 card production? http://rhombus-tech.net/ home is out of date. https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates has May’s update about 3D printing, I guess for the micro-desktop and laptop. http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/ has plenty of threads, mainly kicking ideas around. Thanks, Nick

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FYI: risc-v 6 workshop proceedings 2017 now available
by David Niklas 12 Jun '17

12 Jun '17

This is just me trying to be friendly and informative. Talks are here (I've not listened to them yet): https://riscv.org/2017/05/6th-risc-v-workshop-proceedings/ You're welcome, David

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bunnie about riscv
by ronwirring＠Safe-mail.net 11 Jun '17

11 Jun '17

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXwy65d_tu8 It was very informative. A lot of the technical matter I did not understand. Can you explain: 23.04 The 2 lowermost boxes? What is a stepper? What is fuse? 25.15 The 4 lowermost boxes? 27.35 It appears there is money. 31.21 Alex Bradbury has said, it is difficult to verify, you get the hardware, you were told, you would get. 46.31 I agree.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to acceptapccard
by ronwirring＠Safe-mail.net 11 Jun '17

11 Jun '17

-------- Original Message -------- From: Christopher Havel <laserhawk64(a)gmail.com> Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces(a)lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-netbook(a)lists.phcomp.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to acceptapccard Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 16:17:45 -0400 > Respectfully, if you can't understand the protocol, you're out of your > depth and need to tackle something simpler and build up to this. Take the > scenic route, it will reward you better. Trust me -- I speak from > experience on this -- you'll wind up with a half-completed project that > doesn't work and you don't know why. I have a dozen or so of those in my > past. > It is not a big matter to me. I do not know to do any of it. I ask around. If I get easy to understand low priced solutions, I take advantage of them. > As for the Teensy... yes, one for mouse, one for keyboard. Use a touch > panel for a small LCD for the touchscreen. There's really no way to combine > them without getting into proprietary chips from eg Holtek -- and since > those chips are proprietary and therefore expensive and hard to get, you're > thankful that you can use a pair of Teensies ;) About the battery. If I can find an usb power bank having the right specifications, I could then use the power bank to power the computer and if I wanted to be able to charge the battery and have the computer turned on at the same time, I could get a charger with 2 usb connectors? > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook(a)lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook(a)files.phcomp.co.uk

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Proprietary Free Android
by Allan Mwenda 07 Jun '17

07 Jun '17

https://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=iMX6-Buffer-Modifiers-Work Found this lovely article on phoronix.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed?
by ronwirring＠Safe-mail.net 02 Jun '17

02 Jun '17

-------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl(a)lkcl.net> Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces(a)lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-netbook(a)lists.phcomp.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 06:01:54 +0100 > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:07 PM, <ronwirring(a)safe-mail.net> wrote: > > In a previous post, lkcl wrote the firefly rk3399 staff > > has the pcb cad files and he had no objection about firefly rejecting, > > which they have done towards me, to email the cad files. > > aiyaaa, you didn't ask them did you? it's their proprietary and confidential > business, and they're most likely under NDA with rockchip - please don't > do that, ron. > > > About lkcl's crowd funding, the mali gpu source code is > > not available. Lkcl can make the mali gpu source code > > not available, because he makes a reservation in the text in his ad. > > this is a rather confusing sentence-construction... ad... ad... ah, you > may be referring to the crowd-funding text as "advertising". that word > is reserved for businesses. this is *not* a business. > > > > About the pcb cad files, lkcl has decided they will not be > > available until lkcl decides to provide them. > > noooo, ron, most of the CAD files *are* available. the only ones that > are not are the EOMA68-A20 ones because i've invested literally tens > of thousands of dollars in their development, and if someone else goes > and clones them (particularly in china) before the project's properly > established it jeapordises the ENTIRE PROJECT. especially if they > fuck it up and get it wrong. I understand your arguments and why you made the decision. I was pointing out, that proper open source reasoning, in my opinion, would require that all data is provided. > > > > I disagree on the decision. > > tough. > > > Being open source I find it implicit that all data will be > > provided immediately. > > normally i would agree with you 100%. and in the case of the > housings those *are* 100% available. > > however in the case of the A20 PCB i have to make an exception > to not make them available *IMMEDIATELY*. > > let me be clear. they WILL be made available. is that clear? > > > > Because lkcl has made a reservation in his ad > > there is no advertising, ron. advertising is a tool utilised by > businesses. this is not a business. I have reflected on that. What I write now is not directed against you or your crowd funding. It is in general about crowd funding. It seems crowd funding is some form of workaround about buying an item. I have no knowledge about court decisions in this field. I could imagine due to consumer law, a court would rule it a common purchase. Meaning consumer rights would apply. > > > about the cad files in question he can make that choice. > > > > In the firefly rk3399' ad it says, the hardware is open source. > > that means that the software is available under libre licenses. it > does not mean that the *CAD* files for the *hardware* are available. > > > The ad is misleading and deceptive. > > ron, i do notice that you are often confused by the use of words that > potentially have multiple meanings, or that you sometimes > cross-associate words. > > in this case however you would be correct, there is the possibility > of thinking that "open source" applies *to* the hardware CAD files. > > however if they meant that, they would have used the words "open > hardware" or "libre hardware". I disagree. Firefly writes "open source hardware platform". I find my interpretation legitimate. You are not backing up your interpretation with arguments. My argument is, they say it is open source. Then everything has to be open source if no reservations are stated. > > it's a common enough mistake. > > > I have found no reservations about the mali gpu > > source code or the pcb cad files. Firefly can probably > > not email the mali gpu source code, because they do > > not have it. > > that's correct. you'd be asking them for something they don't have, > and are not legally obligated to provide even if they did. That is debatable. > > > They can email the pcb cad files because they have them. > > ron: they are in absolutely no way obligated to you to provide them. > they've used the right words, and it is *you* who is confused by their > choice of words. Again debatable. > > > > That is why I am going to demand both the mali gpu > > source code and the pcb cad files from firefly. > > ron please don't do that. you will only harm the reputation of the > free software community by doing so. I do not believe playing nice with the manufacturers will show a great rate of successes. Rather if big numbers of people would coordinated act like I do, some impact might show. There is no reason to not try both path simultaneous. Some people play nice. Other make demands. > > > If firefly does not provide the data in question, > > then I will file a complaint to kickstarter. It is unacceptable calling something open source, if it is not all open source. > > that's down to confusion on your part about wording, and it is their > choice and right as a proprietary business what they choose to release > and do not choose to release. > > you have *no right* to tell them that they *have* to release the > source code. that is down to them to learn the consequences of their > decisions. > > > > Of cource I will not mention lkcl in any form. > > don't do it, ron. you'll cause damage to the reputation of the > entire free software community, lessening the chances of companies > like Acer from wanting to work with us. You have a tendency to magnify the impact of one persons actions. Do you actually believe, that me writing manufacturers and making demands, right or wrong demands, has any impact on the situation of libre software? Do you think acer in any way takes notice? No. If half a million people in a short period of time hammered acer with demands, then there might be some impact. Previously you told me, that putting pressure on manufacturers should be done. Then I discarded what you said. I have reached to another point of view. Maybe coordinated campaigns, which are not being done now, might show some results. It can mobilize libre software people. Getting the power to have a say against manufacturers. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook(a)lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook(a)files.phcomp.co.uk

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arm-netbook June 2017