[Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at promoting lima?

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:30 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:

> >  relatively speaking it's tiny.
>
> That's the equivalent of a good house over here *totally paid for*!

 and about 10-20 homes in say scotland... yes.

 the difficulty level and risks associated with silicon are so high
that the profits to be made are as equally enormous.

> > > What is the cost here?
> >
> >  it was a throwaway comment, david, written in about 30 seconds, with
> > about 5 seconds thought.  the focus was more "a much higher bang per
> > buck can be achieved with that kind of money" than "here is a detailed
> > statement of work".
> >
> >  it would take me a *lot* more time to specifically answer that very
> > general question without specific information.
> >
> > > Silicon as an
> > > element is inexpensive and even 32nm foundries should have their HW
> > > paid for by now. It's been what? 8 years since 32nm and the half
> > > node, 28nm started? And the big buyers (AMD, Intel, Nvidia) were on
> > > it for 3+ years.
> >
> >  28nm mask charges - the lithographic stencils onto glass - for 28nm
> > are i think USD $2m.  it's an exponential curve.  45nm is $1m.  it
> > drops to around $250,000 for 180nm.
>
> I had imagined that with at least 4 people (by my memory and including
> me), offering you funding (in the fullness of time), you might have taken
> a cursory look into the matter.

 indeed.  "paying some engineers time to get the libre-licensed HDL
developed", i have a vaaaague feeling that that was the focus of our
discussions some months back.


> > If requiring, for example, a modern DDR4 memory controller, over 50% of
> > that budget would be taken up. Hence why I am interested in HyperRAM
> > (upcoming JEDEC xSPI).
>
> URL?

 google it, as that's exactly and precisely what i would do anyway.
only cursory information is available as JEDEC runs on an ITU-style
(closed, proprietary) basis.

 HyperRAM on the other hand is extremely common.  it's basically Quad
SPI extended to 8 bit and DDR.


> > If not using a back-end team such as the people that IIT Madras have
> > access to, that USD $2m would be entirely eaten by proprietary layout
> > tool licensing from Mentor Graphics and the engineers who would need
> > to be hired to do the work.  hence why I am interested in Magic,
> > alliance2 / coriolis, and libresilicon, all of which are developing
> > open ASIC layout tools.
> >
> > There is a *lot* i simply have not had time to talk about, here, david.
>
> Open source HW is going to require lots of talking, luke, esp. as each
> part of the work gets closer to fruition.

 yup.

> I don't deny your wisdom in
> discerning your own path, but please consider at least attempting to take
> on a liaison/spokesmen if you cannot keep up.

 if there's funds available to pay them... of course.

> > who goes, "that's not good, let's fix that", has absolutely *no idea*
> > how to go about "fixing that", and persistently chips away (often
> > randomly) regardless of complete lack of knowledge and expertise,
> > until success.
>
> That is *amazing*! You really sound like you know what you're doing.

 i really don't: i just have a fast enough corrective loop that it may
*look* that way.  there are massive holes however.

> Did I mention that mixed source was returning under the guise of FLOSS
> through chromium/android et. al.?

 don't start.  i'm keenly aware of the damage that google has done by
using the apache2 license.

> We need a leader for the OSH, someone who will stand up to the vendor
> lock in/greedy bullies of out time. I thought RMS, then luke would be it,
> but not so. You're a great person, luke, but you don't seem the type.

 i'm tackling it differently by going further and further up the
hardware chain.  *that* is physical items that are required to be
bought.  that's where software cannot be "controlled", if you will.
anyone can download libre-licensed source and completely ignore their
ethical and moral obligation to fund the developers who created it.
that *cannot* be done with hardware.

> > > Chromium's binary blob
> > > problems are even further proof.
> > > This became painfully clear when RISC-V came out. I expected *at
> > > least* the cache to be OSH... :CRY:
> > >
> > > I decided that if I could, it was up to me to pull in the funds for
> > > OSH, and "I think I can"(TM).
> >
> >  awesome.  well, as usual i have a parallel set of tracks being
> > investigated, as part of a wider strategy of deals and collaborations
> > with various people, just bear in mind that your help would be part of
> > a much larger deal, ok?
>
> Ok, but I must confess I have been thinking and planning this for a long
> time and have quite a few good ideas about the implementation.

 cool.

> >  ok, so let's say we make a chip.  it's successfully made, it's all
> > done, and it works, right?
> >
> >  and then we go, "ok, who wanna buy?"
> >
> >  and... total absolute silence.
> >
> >  egg.
> >
> >  on.
> >
> >  face.
>
> Eventually we will need normal people to be our user base. I know a bit
> about marketing, but estimating demand or creating a sense of needing
> non-propriety HW? *I have totally no idea*.

 i have a potential client who will order 100,000 units in the first
year, if certain power and functionaliy requirements are met.  it's a
self-contained market for their product so the fact that it's RISC-V
is completely irrelevant to them.

 then there is the india smartphone / netbook / chromebook market.

> That's good. I thought you might have us eternally relying on a college
> or some other deal where a slip of some money from [insert enemy company]
> would lead to the projects all going down the drain.

 nope.  flexibility and multi-pronged strategy.