[Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at promoting lima?

[David Niklas]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 06:30:13 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:44 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:30:17 +0100
> > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:  
> > > ---
> > > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware:
> > > https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 2:58 PM David Niklas <doark at mail.com>
> > > wrote:  
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:43:29 +0100
> > > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > > >  
> > > > > USD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to
> > > > > 100% completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a
> > > > > smaller geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU
> > > > > would be damn good).
> > > > >
> > > > > l.  
> > > >
> > > > Wait a sec! Last year you said:
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 8 May 2017 16:43:07 +0100
> > > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:  
> > > > > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:27 PM,  <ronwirring at safe-mail.net>
> > > > > wrote:  
> > > > > > Best knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be
> > > > > > reverse engineered. What in regard of the latest mali gpus?
> > > > > > If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered?  
> > > > >
> > > > >  yes.  about $150k would do it.   but the question is, really:
> > > > > what would happen if you did?  and, what else could you do with
> > > > > the same money?
> > > > >
> > > > >  well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own
> > > > > libre processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D
> > > > > graphics *without* paying anyone a cent.  any company tries to
> > > > > claim patent royalties, all that happens is a search is made on
> > > > > their "claims", for anything similar that has prior art.
> > > > >
> > > > >  if it's another company, guess what?  we notify that other
> > > > > company and watch the fireworks...
> > > > >
> > > > > l.  
> > > >
> > > > 1M - 150k = 750K!!!
> > > > Therefore you're tripling your price estimate on us!  
> > >
> > >  it depends on what you take into account.  if someone else pays the
> > > NREs to the foundry, i.e. a university agrees to collaborate and is
> > > offered access to a foundry for either free or at reduced rates,
> > > $250k-$500k comes off that amount, straight away.  
> >
> > My statement was based on: 1M - (3 x 150K == 450K [for the HDL]) =
> > 550K for the silicon, and that's huge!  
> 
>  relatively speaking it's tiny.

That's the equivalent of a good house over here *totally paid for*!

> > What is the cost here?  
> 
>  it was a throwaway comment, david, written in about 30 seconds, with
> about 5 seconds thought.  the focus was more "a much higher bang per
> buck can be achieved with that kind of money" than "here is a detailed
> statement of work".
> 
>  it would take me a *lot* more time to specifically answer that very
> general question without specific information.
> 
> > Silicon as an
> > element is inexpensive and even 32nm foundries should have their HW
> > paid for by now. It's been what? 8 years since 32nm and the half
> > node, 28nm started? And the big buyers (AMD, Intel, Nvidia) were on
> > it for 3+ years.  
> 
>  28nm mask charges - the lithographic stencils onto glass - for 28nm
> are i think USD $2m.  it's an exponential curve.  45nm is $1m.  it
> drops to around $250,000 for 180nm.

I had imagined that with at least 4 people (by my memory and including
me), offering you funding (in the fullness of time), you might have taken
a cursory look into the matter.

<snip>
> > > last time i collaborated with an associate to
> > > come up with a proper figure it was around USD $5m (for a client)
> > > and it took us around five days to put that together. however that
> > > particular deal excluded certain resources and had specific
> > > requirements.  
> >
> > :(
> > I was aiming for 2M minimum. And that is BIG to me.  
> 
> If aiming for 28nm (without additional investors) that would barely
> cover the production mask charges.  hence why i am interested to work
> with IIT Madras.
> 
> If requiring, for example, a modern DDR4 memory controller, over 50% of
> that budget would be taken up. Hence why I am interested in HyperRAM
> (upcoming JEDEC xSPI).

URL?
I've only heard of the upcoming DDR5 non-volatile memory.

> If not using a back-end team such as the people that IIT Madras have
> access to, that USD $2m would be entirely eaten by proprietary layout
> tool licensing from Mentor Graphics and the engineers who would need
> to be hired to do the work.  hence why I am interested in Magic,
> alliance2 / coriolis, and libresilicon, all of which are developing
> open ASIC layout tools.
> 
> There is a *lot* i simply have not had time to talk about, here, david.

Open source HW is going to require lots of talking, luke, esp. as each
part of the work gets closer to fruition. I don't deny your wisdom in
discerning your own path, but please consider at least attempting to take
on a liaison/spokesmen if you cannot keep up.

Remember The Foul Mouth of Sauron from LOTR? :)

<snip>
> > I don't always agree with you, but what you write I do pay attention
> > to. And I have a terrible tendency of believing you. :)  
> 
>  :)  always never do that:

Double self canceling absolute. Grammar error. SEGFAULT. Core dumped. :)

> i am first and foremost an ethical person,

Me too(TM).

> who goes, "that's not good, let's fix that", has absolutely *no idea*
> how to go about "fixing that", and persistently chips away (often
> randomly) regardless of complete lack of knowledge and expertise,
> until success.

That is *amazing*! You really sound like you know what you're doing.

> it means that i really *really* need feedback and people to
> double-check and triple-check.

Don't look at me, I'm almost the same way. :)

> > I had assumed that
> > some company would opensource or support the OSS Mali drivers,
> > eventually. Google has android running off of Mali, Samsung and LG
> > have Smart TVs running off of Mali, the list goes on...
> > But when you wrote about creating an OSH GPU yourself I realized that
> > is spite of every Mali customer, Google et. al. would not support
> > opensourcing anything if they could help it.  
> 
>  YA THINK???

This is an important difference between us, I see people as having a
choice, where any day the CEOs of these companies could wake up and say,
"We have been using FLOSS for years and have not given a fraction of what
we have made back; I shall be the opensource monetary sponsor and
pathfinder for their endeavors."

Or, how about using this line of reasoning, "We treat the FLOSS devs as
expendable laborers. Like of old, in Egypt, we are their cruel
taskmasters, our thirst for their sweat and blood never satisfied. Truly,
they donate their lives to the cause, and we have only beads and trinkets
to offer them in return. Indeed, I shall reward their efforts, and see
that every devotee receives his due."

Stallmen and ESR both thought that FLOSS just needed to prove itself to
catch on. I bought into that strategy. I gave it up after 6 years. There
is a lot more morals involved than that. Even AMD's FLOSS diver is more
about the economics than anything else.

Did I mention that mixed source was returning under the guise of FLOSS
through chromium/android et. al.?

We need a leader for the OSH, someone who will stand up to the vendor
lock in/greedy bullies of out time. I thought RMS, then luke would be it,
but not so. You're a great person, luke, but you don't seem the type.

> > Chromium's binary blob
> > problems are even further proof.
> > This became painfully clear when RISC-V came out. I expected *at
> > least* the cache to be OSH... :CRY:
> >
> > I decided that if I could, it was up to me to pull in the funds for
> > OSH, and "I think I can"(TM).  
> 
>  awesome.  well, as usual i have a parallel set of tracks being
> investigated, as part of a wider strategy of deals and collaborations
> with various people, just bear in mind that your help would be part of
> a much larger deal, ok?

Ok, but I must confess I have been thinking and planning this for a long
time and have quite a few good ideas about the implementation.

I also have a thick head and no idea what I'm talking about. :)

> > > > I'm planning on calling you on this one  
> > >
> > >  excellent.  well, when that happens, let's talk (on or off list),
> > > you let me know what you can raise and i'll put the time in - which
> > > will be several days not a few moments - to work out what can be
> > > done, and what side-deals will be needed, if necessary.
> > >
> > > l.
> > >  
> >
> > I will tell you, but keep in mind that there are other OSH products
> > to be developed that I have my eyes on.
> >
> > Finally, I'm uncertain that I want to know, but what is a "side
> > deal"?  
> 
>  ok, so let's say we make a chip.  it's successfully made, it's all
> done, and it works, right?
> 
>  and then we go, "ok, who wanna buy?"
> 
>  and... total absolute silence.
> 
>  egg.
> 
>  on.
> 
>  face.

Eventually we will need normal people to be our user base. I know a bit
about marketing, but estimating demand or creating a sense of needing
non-propriety HW? *I have totally no idea*.

At all.

Ponder that for me luke, it is the one mystery that *totally evades* me.

The best I can do where I live is get blank looks and, "I want my icons!"
and "What I have now works." statements. Really!? That is all?! You, the
end user could have SO MUCH MORE!

They simply don't know what wonders and powers they're missing out on.

And how badly they are used and abused.

And then stuck through the meat grinder again and again.

They say/act like, "We owe [insert favorite company/politician]
everything."
"Yes," I respond, "that is what they want, *Everything*!"

>  so the way to deal with that is: find **MULTIPLE** potential
> customers, take their requirements into account, and make damn sure
> that the SoC is capable of fulfilling THEIR needs times as many of
> such potential customers as can possibly be found.
> 
>  and if even 30% of them come through and order 100,000, that's enough
> to actually get a serious order with a foundry.
> 
>  now, some of those people might be willing to actually invest
> up-front, to get the SoC made.
> 
>  that's what i mean by "side deals".  deals "on the side" that result
> in everybody succeeding in getting what they want.
> 
> l.

That's good. I thought you might have us eternally relying on a college
or some other deal where a slip of some money from [insert enemy company]
would lead to the projects all going down the drain.
And yes, if we *really* succeed the competition will band together and do
that to us.
If not the 3 letter US government agencies.

Thanks