[Arm-netbook] systemd nonsense ad-infinitum

[Philip Hands]

zap <calmstorm at posteo.de> writes:

>> Indeed, volunteer time is seriously limited, and there are things that
>> are just beyond what can be expected from them.
>>
>> E.g. if a mayor DE would start requiring systemd to work, Debian would
>> not be in the position to fork it, but that doesn't mean that
>> non-systemd users will be forced to migrate to systemd, just that they
>> would have to use one of the many other DE available in Debian.
>>
>> ¹ this is not that unlikely, however: there have been a number of calls
>> for help because the numbers of complaints on the mailing list is much
>> higher than the number of people actually giving even a tiny bit of help
>> in ensuring that sysvinit continues to be tested and supported in
>> Debian, and if nobody tests it, eventually it will bitrot and stop
>> working.
>>
> That is why, runit and openrc are badly needed as options but no matter
> what, the developers of debian had no right to force all packages to
> require systemd if they are calling their distro "universally free or
> free software" because that is the opposite of how free software is
> supposed to work.

WTAF?

There is no "forcing" or "requiring" involved, and people spouting this
bullshit is getting _really_ old now.

If any such radical change had actually been enacted then:

  a) well, we'd be in a different universe, where Debian was run by some
  sort of overlord who was prone to making snap decisions on a whim.

  b) there would have been a mass bug filing for all these packages that
  did not require systemd, to somehow add that requirement.

  c) there would have then been a vast wave of new package uploads with
  the new packages, encumbered with those requirements.

NONE OF THIS HAPPENED.

Debian didn't even make it so that other inits were somehow downgraded,
except for the fact that sysvinit is no longer the default on those
platforms where systemd actually exists (so on other platforms it's not
even the default, and most packages happily build on _all_ platforms, so
how does that sit in the same universe as one where systemd is "required"?) 

In fact Debian instead made efforts (much of the effort being done by
the Debian systemd maintainers) to make sure that is was actually rather
easier to switch between inits.  The systemd folk even wrote extra code
to make sure that sysvinit and other inits could continue to support
programs where the upstreams have decided that they want to depend on
the services that systemd provides.  That strikes me as above and beyond
the call of duty.

What thanks do they get for it?

They get unending inchoate screaming about how they are part of some
sort of global conspiracy, until they started burning out.

The result being that they no longer have time, and certainly have no
inclination, to support systemd-shim, and the useless wankers that did
all the screaming of course cannot be arsed to put any effort into it,
so it's now rotting, and the chances of being able to continue using
other inits in Debian are now beginning to diminish.

This is NOT because anyone forced anyone to do anything.

If people were to decide not to post another anti-systemd rant, and
instead do something as trivial as reporting a single bug where
non-systemd-as-init was causing a problem, then there would be some hope
of making sure that other inits continue to work, but from what I can
see that is not happening.

Instead people are spreading lies and scuttling off to the likes of
Devuan (who are also not addressing the issues, because they are not
improving application portability, because it's impossible to have
Devuan _with_ systemd).

Also, note that Debian is still going to the effort of making choice
possible -- other ditros that switched have made the rather more
sensible choice of supporting only systemd, and thus saving themselves
the effort of supporting the minority inits.

I imagine that's why people are still bothering to attack Debian on this
since they imagine that there's a slim chance that we might switch
again, but what you have now is definitely the best you're going to get.

As a parent of two small children I can tell you that screaming never
gets rewarded, and my children if they scream long enough will either
both lose the toy they are fighting over, or have something they like
even less happen to them -- I think that's pretty much the mindset that
most Debian Developers have adopted to people howling about systemd, so
be warned:

  Life can always get worse, and if you don't want that, stop screaming
  and put some effort into building the world as you'd like it to exist.

Cheers, Phil.
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