-------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces@lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 18:17:16 +0100
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 4:49 PM, ronwirring@safe-mail.net wrote:
I do not know about this. I understood it all wrong. I thought it was a matter of tfirefly withholding part of the full schematics.
the t-firefly 3399 is designed, manufactured and sold by a third party compapy (t-firefly) that has *nothing* to do with rockchip, the manufacturer of the RK339 processor.
Is it correct to say, that the pdf schematics provide the required pieces of information for an eoma rk3399 pc card?
that is incorrect in about two or three separate and distinct way.
Is it correct to say, that pdf full schematics are not easy usable for you in order to make an eoma rk3399 pc card?
that would be correct in about two or three separate and distinct ways, the implications of which are that it would cost about $30,000 and take maybe 6 to 12 *months* to make an eoma rk3399 pc card purely from a PDF schematic.
It is a matter of transforming pdf data into cad data?
yes, which is a f******g stupid way to do it, as everything has to be RE-ENTERED - by hand - into the CAD program, to make it "look" like the PDF output.
then once that's done you then have to do the PCB design *from* the schematics, and that takes even longer. and will contain mistakes.
it's basically a total waste of time and money to eveen consider.
Is it difficult or takes a lot of time? I ask because the converting to cad files cannot be split up in numerous pieces and put on a website, where people can each solve one piece?
Having rk3399 cad data, you can make an eoma rk3399?
correct! and it would, in total contrast to trying the incredibly stupid idea of re-producing that CAD data taking almost a YEAR and cost tens of thousands of dollars because you made dozens of mistakes, take about 2-3 weeks instead.
Does tfirefly have the firefly rk3399 cad data?
yes they do otherwise they would not be able to produce the Gerber files to send off to the PCB manufacturing factory.
If so, why won't tfirefly make them public?
because it's their proprietary and confidential data that's why! they're a commercial company that wants to make money, having absolutely nothing to do with rockchip (who are just a supplier of the RK339 processor).
why on earth would they destroy their own business by making it possible for people to take the CAD files, create some gerbers, have SOMEONE ELSE manufacture THEIR product and thus cut them completely out of the loop?
that would be very dumb of them to do, if their business is to make money from selling t-firefly-rk3399 products, wouldn't it?
Because a license prohibits it?
no.
Because competitors can use them?
correct.
Lkcl, have you asked tfirefly to give you the full schematics cad data?
no... because they would think i was a bit dumb. or worse, wanted to steal their business. i have no desire to piss them off.
Because I got to think, you said tfirefly is withholding some schematics,
no i did not say that. it may be true but i would not have specifically said it. i may have said that *rockchip* has *not made available the reference design* which is a totally different matter.
you may have then thought "rockchip equals firefly".
please try not to make cross-connections and/or correlations that aren't actually the case.
I wrote tfirefly asking them to email me the full schematics. Tfirefly never denied, that they had not made the full schematics public. They said, they could not disclose the full schematics. Maybe due to a lack of english skills on both sides.
no, you've just misunderstood their business model. please don't ask them again, it's not fair to ask them to make public something which will destroy their business model.
Then what should you ask tfirefly for? Full schematics cad data?
absolutely nothing. you don't ask them for anything. they're a third party business - an OEM.
and we also can't ask rockchip either, because we're not going to order a million of their processors, cash up-front... *until* they have made full CAD data available.
classic catch 22 situation.
so instead we wait - as i specifically, specifically said - until rockchip's Reference Designs leak out onto the public internet and are available on e.g. taobao or other site, for sale for $25.
l.
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btw ron please do cut context that's not necessary, it was very hard to find the questions you wrote.
On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 3:47 PM, ronwirring@safe-mail.net wrote:
then once that's done you then have to do the PCB design *from* the schematics, and that takes even longer. and will contain mistakes.
Is it difficult or takes a lot of time? I ask because the converting to cad files cannot be split up in numerous pieces and put on a website, where people can each solve one piece?
so, cutting all but the relevant context, and answering just the questions you asked: there are two aspects.
firstly, the schematics: these just take time. it could be parallelised in theory
secondly, the PCB layout: this takes time *and* is difficult. creating the footprints for compoents could be parallelised, but the PCB layout - positioning of components, connecting components, laying out tracks and the planes? no - for such a small PCB that is best handled by one person with the required expertise.
and that task alone takes months to do from scratch.
l.
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton -
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