(1) *approximately* how much would it cost me to get an MEB, a current CPU Card (I assume that'd be A10 based?) and a case, almost-ready-to-go (as in, assemble the case, stick in the card, and drop on an OS), including shipping...? I'm in NC, US -- ZIP+4 for me is 27344-6644. (...or are we not quite there yet? I'm a little confused on that one.) To be super de doober clear -- estimate, not quote :P
(2a) how realistic is the idea of putting together a prototype of the VGA adapter I came up with using perfboard? (I can't afford custom PCBs, and I can only do thru-hole soldering... I'll be socketing everything if I can work out the wiring for it!) What limitations should I expect, resolution-wise?
(2b) alternatively, I have an eBay issue HDMI-to-VGA-and-Audio adapter, one of the ones that pulls power from the HDMI port. (It works, I've tested it.) Would that work with the MEB+CPU Card as things are now (don't mind needing adapter cables, but I am NOT rewiring the thing, even to provide extra power -- my soldering skills are simply too poor).
On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
(1) *approximately* how much would it cost me to get an MEB, a current CPU Card (I assume that'd be A10 based?)
i have a *very* limited number of early A10 CPU Cards here. the ethernet will not work without a flying lead soldered to a 0.5mm pitch pin. i would offer it to you (or anyone) if they had a *really* good strategic reason as to why they needed it, and if you (or anyone) had the required soldering skills.
l.
On 11/3/2013 3:47 PM, luke.leighton wrote:
On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
(1) *approximately* how much would it cost me to get an MEB, a current CPU Card (I assume that'd be A10 based?)
i have a *very* limited number of early A10 CPU Cards here. the ethernet will not work without a flying lead soldered to a 0.5mm pitch pin. i would offer it to you (or anyone) if they had a *really* good strategic reason as to why they needed it, and if you (or anyone) had the required soldering skills.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
I'm not that good at soldering! (But I know someone who is.) My home network is all wireless anyways.
But I can't fill the strategic reason requirement -- I just want to see if one of the two efforts at an ARM-able Puppy Linux will run on the dang thing.
Guess I'll leave things in the wishlist department for now. Maybe for Christmas... :P
On Sunday, November 3, 2013 14:03:57 Christopher Havel wrote:
(1) *approximately* how much would it cost me to get an MEB, a current CPU Card (I assume that'd be A10 based?) and a case, almost-ready-to-go (as in, assemble the case, stick in the card, and drop on an OS), including shipping...? I'm in NC, US -- ZIP+4 for me is 27344-6644. (...or are we not quite there yet? I'm a little confused on that one.) To be super de doober clear -- estimate, not quote :P
When do you need it by?
If you can wait ~8 weeks for delivery: US$75 for MEB + A20 card. I will know Wednesday when this will launch, but I’m hoping we’ll be taking orders next week.
(2a) how realistic is the idea of putting together a prototype of the VGA adapter I came up with using perfboard? (I can't afford custom PCBs,
We already have a prototype VGA adapter done up. We’d like to offer it as an add-on but have not yet decided on pricing or worked out logistics for it. Most likely we will be releasing project files for it and you can whip one up yourself that attaches to the 44 pin DIL on the MEB.
On 11/4/2013 5:00 AM, Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2013 14:03:57 Christopher Havel wrote:
(1) *approximately* how much would it cost me to get an MEB, a current CPU Card (I assume that'd be A10 based?) and a case, almost-ready-to-go (as in, assemble the case, stick in the card, and drop on an OS), including shipping...? I'm in NC, US -- ZIP+4 for me is 27344-6644. (...or are we not quite there yet? I'm a little confused on that one.) To be super de doober clear -- estimate, not quote :P
When do you need it by?
If you can wait ~8 weeks for delivery: US$75 for MEB + A20 card. I will know Wednesday when this will launch, but I’m hoping we’ll be taking orders next week.
(2a) how realistic is the idea of putting together a prototype of the VGA adapter I came up with using perfboard? (I can't afford custom PCBs,
We already have a prototype VGA adapter done up. We’d like to offer it as an add-on but have not yet decided on pricing or worked out logistics for it. Most likely we will be releasing project files for it and you can whip one up yourself that attaches to the 44 pin DIL on the MEB.
"Need" is a bit of a strong word... but I really really really really want one ;)
Alas, $75 is not something I can just throw around, to say the very least. I'm quite poor. The super-brief explanation (probably the best, here) is that I live with my disabled mother -- in return for helping her with what she needs, I'm provided with a home and food and all that good stuff. Unfortunately, her check is only about $1k/mo -- she made the "mistake" of being mostly self-employed during her ~55 years of being a working person (that sort of thing screws you over if you get disabled, apparently). So we're technically in the black, but only just barely. I really don't know how she does it -- but finances are total wizardry to me, to begin with...
A $75 want goes on either my birthday list or my Christmas list (depending on what time of year it is) -- since it's well past June, it'll be on my Christmas list this year. *shrug* it's just how it goes. It's hard, but what choice do I have?
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
A $75 want goes on either my birthday list or my Christmas list (depending on what time of year it is) -- since it's well past June, it'll be on my Christmas list this year. *shrug* it's just how it goes. It's hard, but what choice do I have?
well, you have internet, you're coherent, have time on your hands and make good use of it (twice so far on this list alone). your mum's alive, for you both to be able to appreciate each other's company. i'd say you were pretty rich! famous quote for you: "being broke is a temporary situation. poverty is a state of mind".
anyway enough of that - back to schematics for me... :)
l.
On 11/4/2013 11:31 AM, luke.leighton wrote:
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
A $75 want goes on either my birthday list or my Christmas list (depending on what time of year it is) -- since it's well past June, it'll be on my Christmas list this year. *shrug* it's just how it goes. It's hard, but what choice do I have?
well, you have internet, you're coherent, have time on your hands and make good use of it (twice so far on this list alone). your mum's alive, for you both to be able to appreciate each other's company. i'd say you were pretty rich! famous quote for you: "being broke is a temporary situation. poverty is a state of mind".
anyway enough of that - back to schematics for me... :)
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
Can't buy food with good feelings ;) financially speaking I'm flat freaking broke.
On Monday, November 4, 2013 11:07:38 Christopher Havel wrote:
"Need" is a bit of a strong word... but I really really really really want one ;)
first, what Luke says about poverty is completely true. and i feel you: i’ve experienced poverty myself.
that all said, something i’ve learned with hardware is that if you give it away 99% of people don’t do anything with it. i say that as someone who has been involved with giving away more than a few devices in the past, 100s at a single event even :)
we want these devices to be *used*, and by having people pay for them not only do we help support production and development but it gives people a pretty good reason to actually *use* them.
so that’s the “why i don’t plan on just giving these things away”.
however, i am very open to the idea of putting aside a limited # of these devices for people who demonstrate not just need, but also a plan, and sending earmarked devices to those people at our expense.
what i’d look for is:
* a short, written plan of what you are going to use the device for. it wouldn’t have to be ground breaking / earth shattering in amazingness, just a “here’s what i’ll be doin’ with it”. this will help us prioritize between different kinds of projects
* a commitment to post regular updates (e.g. 1-3 times / month) online so others can follow your progress. believe it or not, this is a *really* nice way to give something back to the community and would be a way of supporting the project with your time rather than your money.
for me, such a program would have to:
* be able to produce results everyone would identify with as “good”; put another way: no losers, only winners
* be respectful to everyone involved; i would not want to initiate a beg’n’grovel fest, for instance, so the application process should be focused on positives: a description of my project(s), how i plan to document my progress so the community can join in on my successes, etc.
would that work for you, or would you tweak something in there?
i can’t promise we’d have this program ready for launch, but i’d be willing to make it happen in the mid-term.
On 11/4/2013 12:19 PM, Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2013 11:07:38 Christopher Havel wrote:
"Need" is a bit of a strong word... but I really really really really want one ;)
first, what Luke says about poverty is completely true. and i feel you: i’ve experienced poverty myself.
that all said, something i’ve learned with hardware is that if you give it away 99% of people don’t do anything with it. i say that as someone who has been involved with giving away more than a few devices in the past, 100s at a single event even :)
we want these devices to be *used*, and by having people pay for them not only do we help support production and development but it gives people a pretty good reason to actually *use* them.
so that’s the “why i don’t plan on just giving these things away”.
however, i am very open to the idea of putting aside a limited # of these devices for people who demonstrate not just need, but also a plan, and sending earmarked devices to those people at our expense.
what i’d look for is:
- a short, written plan of what you are going to use the device for. it
wouldn’t have to be ground breaking / earth shattering in amazingness, just a “here’s what i’ll be doin’ with it”. this will help us prioritize between different kinds of projects
- a commitment to post regular updates (e.g. 1-3 times / month) online so
others can follow your progress. believe it or not, this is a *really* nice way to give something back to the community and would be a way of supporting the project with your time rather than your money.
for me, such a program would have to:
- be able to produce results everyone would identify with as “good”; put
another way: no losers, only winners
- be respectful to everyone involved; i would not want to initiate a
beg’n’grovel fest, for instance, so the application process should be focused on positives: a description of my project(s), how i plan to document my progress so the community can join in on my successes, etc.
would that work for you, or would you tweak something in there?
i can’t promise we’d have this program ready for launch, but i’d be willing to make it happen in the mid-term.
...maybe...
What I want to do with it is run FatDogARM, which is a version of Puppy Linux made for ARM processors and an offshoot of another community version (more on that in a minute) of Puppy Linux called FatDog (speaking as a member of the Puppy Community, FatDog is one of our two 64bit offerings; the other is Lighthouse 64). FatDogARM is in Alpha stage right now, and is being done by a fellow on the Puppy Linux forum (well, the official one -- there's an official, a backup-official, and one or two unofficials).
Getting FatDogARM to run on an EOMA68 platform would contribute both to EOMA68 and to FatDogARM, in providing an additional Linux OS supporting EOMA68, and providing additional hardware compatible with FatDogARM.
FatDogARM can be made (at present) to run on all A10/A20 systems with at least 512mb RAM (I'm told 1gb is hugely better -- at 512mb the compiler memory-thrashes IIRC) with some gentle futzing.
Regarding Puppy Linux itself (for x86 systems here)... Puppy is a little different from most Linuces (as I like to say the word). Puppy is a single root user Linux distro (it's safe to run Puppy as root -- the distro is well built against any threats it might otherwise be vulnerable to). The best way to install Puppy is also different -- us Puppians call it a "frugal install" (we call a conventional Linux install a "full install") -- basically it's a process of copying over the vmlinuz, initrd.gz, and SquashFS file (with the actual filesystem inside, along with optional additional *.sfs's for additional programs and sometimes drivers), and tacking a bootloader on top (I'm used to grub4dos, it's *almost* idiotproof). It's also a community-oriented distro, and as a result is more of a "distro family" than one single OS. There are a tremendous number of Puppies and Puplets (a "Puplet" is a community-created version of Puppy); we have a forum member who collects as many versions as possible for archive purposes (and has an account with archive[dot]org for that) -- and I've been told by that member that the collection is well over 1000 Pups.
The official Puppy Linux forum is at http://murga-linux.com/puppy/index.php http://murga-linux.com/puppy/index.php, and the forum member developing FatDogARM has the handle there of 'jamesbond' (w/o quotes). Current thread (for FatDogARM Alpha-4) is at http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=89998 . I've spoken with jamesbond about EOMA68, briefly, in the FatDogARM Alpha-3 thread (linked in the first post of the Alpha-4 thread). I can post a link to the page with that discussion if needed, but the general gist is that jamesbond thinks it'll be a cakewalk. I'm not 100% sure, mostly because of that EEPROM and the fact that I can't compile.
On Monday, November 4, 2013 12:43:16 Christopher Havel wrote:
What I want to do with it is run FatDogARM, which is a version of Puppy
cool. sounds quite useful and interesting.
i didn’t actually mean for you to post your project here directly, but i appreciate that you did.
thinks it'll be a cakewalk. I'm not 100% sure, mostly because of that EEPROM and the fact that I can't compile.
the EEPROM doesn’t interfere with anything; you can happily ignore it as much as you want.
On 11/4/2013 1:18 PM, Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2013 12:43:16 Christopher Havel wrote:
What I want to do with it is run FatDogARM, which is a version of Puppy
cool. sounds quite useful and interesting.
i didn’t actually mean for you to post your project here directly, but i appreciate that you did.
Well, I thought you might not be the only one who would want to hear it. Consider it also a partial introduction for me ;) I'm a Puppian for sure, although I'm not certainly not representing Puppy in any official capacity! By the way, I'm also a community dev with Puppy -- I created a Puplet for artists, that I'm sort of maintaining, called Vincent Van Pup ("sort of" because I need to mix up the next revision and I keep dang procrastinating...). *truly shameless plug* the thread for that Puplet (Vinnie, for short :P ) is here, if there's any interest at all --> http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=89395
thinks it'll be a cakewalk. I'm not 100% sure, mostly because of that EEPROM and the fact that I can't compile.
the EEPROM doesn’t interfere with anything; you can happily ignore it as much as you want.
It's not "interference" that I'm concerned about with the EEPROM. It's an interface issue -- how does an OS, eg FatDogARM, "know" that the EEPROM is there, read the contents, and act accordingly...? I know that ARM is largely un-autoprobe-able...
On Monday, November 4, 2013 13:26:17 Christopher Havel wrote:
thinks it'll be a cakewalk. I'm not 100% sure, mostly because of that EEPROM and the fact that I can't compile.
the EEPROM doesn’t interfere with anything; you can happily ignore it as much as you want.
It's not "interference" that I'm concerned about with the EEPROM. It's an interface issue -- how does an OS, eg FatDogARM, "know" that the EEPROM is there, read the contents, and act accordingly...? I know that ARM is largely un-autoprobe-able...
FatDogARM won’t need to know it is there unless it wants to get things like the device ID.
for that .. if we can agree on the format of data on the EEPROM in the other thread, you’ll get a library and command line tool that handles that for you.
anyways, this isn’t an ARM issue as much as it is a bus issue. you can actually probe an i2c bus .. though it can undesired side effects (generally used for troubleshooting and poking at devices). the usb, sata... those buses support such things, however, just fine.
anyways, the EOMA68 informational EEPROM address is hardcoded to a specific i2c address on a specific i2c bus. you can see this in the EOMA68 spec.
On 11/4/2013 1:48 PM, Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2013 13:26:17 Christopher Havel wrote:
thinks it'll be a cakewalk. I'm not 100% sure, mostly because of that EEPROM and the fact that I can't compile.
the EEPROM doesn’t interfere with anything; you can happily ignore it as much as you want.
It's not "interference" that I'm concerned about with the EEPROM. It's an interface issue -- how does an OS, eg FatDogARM, "know" that the EEPROM is there, read the contents, and act accordingly...? I know that ARM is largely un-autoprobe-able...
FatDogARM won’t need to know it is there unless it wants to get things like the device ID.
for that .. if we can agree on the format of data on the EEPROM in the other thread, you’ll get a library and command line tool that handles that for you.
anyways, this isn’t an ARM issue as much as it is a bus issue. you can actually probe an i2c bus .. though it can undesired side effects (generally used for troubleshooting and poking at devices). the usb, sata... those buses support such things, however, just fine.
anyways, the EOMA68 informational EEPROM address is hardcoded to a specific i2c address on a specific i2c bus. you can see this in the EOMA68 spec.
I was under the impression that the EEPROM served to fix the autoprobe issue -- that is, to identify what devices and capabilities were present on the MEB (or any other 'carrier board') and tell the OS about it. Was I mistaken...?
On Monday, November 4, 2013 14:04:43 Christopher Havel wrote:
I was under the impression that the EEPROM served to fix the autoprobe issue -- that is, to identify what devices and capabilities were present on the MEB (or any other 'carrier board') and tell the OS about it. Was I mistaken...?
well yes, if you want to be able to bring up all devices on a random application board then getting to the EEPROM will be necessary, though that will hopefully also be handled by provided tools (bootloader, etc.). i’d hate to see that have to be adapted to for every target OS one by one :/
even then, if you don’t care to be able to see every device automatically, you don’t even need that. we’ve obviously all been working with EOMA68 boards with that so far, right?
what you are limited to are things like USB devices and the rest has to be hand-configured. and of course that is only applicable to the application board: what is on the EOMA68 card itself is well documented. so not the end of the world...
putting the (non-autodiscoverable) device tree on the EEPROM is just to remove the hand-configuration process. but it is not required to getting an OS on one of the EOMA68 cards.
On 11/4/2013 2:16 PM, Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2013 14:04:43 Christopher Havel wrote:
I was under the impression that the EEPROM served to fix the autoprobe issue -- that is, to identify what devices and capabilities were present on the MEB (or any other 'carrier board') and tell the OS about it. Was I mistaken...?
well yes, if you want to be able to bring up all devices on a random application board then getting to the EEPROM will be necessary, though that will hopefully also be handled by provided tools (bootloader, etc.). i’d hate to see that have to be adapted to for every target OS one by one :/
even then, if you don’t care to be able to see every device automatically, you don’t even need that. we’ve obviously all been working with EOMA68 boards with that so far, right?
what you are limited to are things like USB devices and the rest has to be hand-configured. and of course that is only applicable to the application board: what is on the EOMA68 card itself is well documented. so not the end of the world...
putting the (non-autodiscoverable) device tree on the EEPROM is just to remove the hand-configuration process. but it is not required to getting an OS on one of the EOMA68 cards.
Thanks -- that explanation made a lot of sense :) I think I'll wait till the EEPROM's all sorted out... sounds like it'd be much easier for the OS at that point.
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Aaron J. Seigo aseigo@kde.org wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2013 14:04:43 Christopher Havel wrote:
I was under the impression that the EEPROM served to fix the autoprobe issue -- that is, to identify what devices and capabilities were present on the MEB (or any other 'carrier board') and tell the OS about it.
there are two possible approaches here. one is a "cooperative" approach - the OS is aware and adapts. the other is a Virtual Machine approach (lxc, xen, other). each guest OS is brought up as-and-when depending on the type of underlying hardware.
last resort - reboot. this would be generally bad.
Was I mistaken...?
well yes, if you want to be able to bring up all devices on a random application board then getting to the EEPROM will be necessary, though that will hopefully also be handled by provided tools (bootloader, etc.). i’d hate to see that have to be adapted to for every target OS one by one :/
eventually that's what will be needed. there are ways to cope in the meantime. KDE / Plasma is by far and above the furthest along of all the software-libre eco systems that will handle the radical changes of screen and hardware.
even then, if you don’t care to be able to see every device automatically, you don’t even need that. we’ve obviously all been working with EOMA68 boards with that so far, right?
what you are limited to are things like USB devices and the rest has to be hand-configured.
RGB/TTL, gpio, i2c - all of those will need (by way of the EOMA68 EEPROM) to be "turned into" discoverable udev-event-driven "buses", giving them auto-discoverability just like USB, SATA and Ethernet have automatic hotplugging.
l.
On 4 Nov 2013 16:07, "Christopher Havel" laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/4/2013 5:00 AM, Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2013 14:03:57 Christopher Havel wrote:
(1) *approximately* how much would it cost me to get an MEB, a current CPU Card (I assume that'd be A10 based?) and a case, almost-ready-to-go (as in, assemble the case, stick in the card, and drop on an OS), including shipping...? I'm in NC, US -- ZIP+4 for me is 27344-6644. (...or are we not quite there yet? I'm a little confused on that one.) To be super de doober clear -- estimate, not quote :P
When do you need it by?
If you can wait ~8 weeks for delivery: US$75 for MEB + A20 card. I will
know
Wednesday when this will launch, but I’m hoping we’ll be taking orders
next
week.
(2a) how realistic is the idea of putting together a prototype of the VGA adapter I came up with using perfboard? (I can't afford custom PCBs,
We already have a prototype VGA adapter done up. We’d like to offer it
as an
add-on but have not yet decided on pricing or worked out logistics for
it.
Most likely we will be releasing project files for it and you can whip
one up
yourself that attaches to the 44 pin DIL on the MEB.
"Need" is a bit of a strong word... but I really really really really
want one ;)
Alas, $75 is not something I can just throw around, to say the very
least. I'm quite poor. The super-brief explanation (probably the best, here) is that I live with my disabled mother -- in return for helping her with what she needs, I'm provided with a home and food and all that good stuff. Unfortunately, her check is only about $1k/mo -- she made the "mistake" of being mostly self-employed during her ~55 years of being a working person (that sort of thing screws you over if you get disabled, apparently). So we're technically in the black, but only just barely. I really don't know how she does it -- but finances are total wizardry to me, to begin with...
A $75 want goes on either my birthday list or my Christmas list
(depending on what time of year it is) -- since it's well past June, it'll be on my Christmas list this year. *shrug* it's just how it goes. It's hard, but what choice do I have?
I didn't buy you a birthday present last year just drop me a mail with what you want.
Justin
TOP POST WARNING:
I have a few MEBv1s left, some not super pretty but fully functional. And I can build a VGA board after the weekend. Feel free to email me and I'll see what I can do.
-Christopher Thomas
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 7, 2013, at 4:51 PM, Justin Cormack justin@specialbusservice.com wrote:
On 4 Nov 2013 16:07, "Christopher Havel" laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/4/2013 5:00 AM, Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2013 14:03:57 Christopher Havel wrote:
(1) *approximately* how much would it cost me to get an MEB, a current CPU Card (I assume that'd be A10 based?) and a case, almost-ready-to-go (as in, assemble the case, stick in the card, and drop on an OS), including shipping...? I'm in NC, US -- ZIP+4 for me is 27344-6644. (...or are we not quite there yet? I'm a little confused on that one.) To be super de doober clear -- estimate, not quote :P
When do you need it by?
If you can wait ~8 weeks for delivery: US$75 for MEB + A20 card. I will know Wednesday when this will launch, but I’m hoping we’ll be taking orders next week.
(2a) how realistic is the idea of putting together a prototype of the VGA adapter I came up with using perfboard? (I can't afford custom PCBs,
We already have a prototype VGA adapter done up. We’d like to offer it as an add-on but have not yet decided on pricing or worked out logistics for it. Most likely we will be releasing project files for it and you can whip one up yourself that attaches to the 44 pin DIL on the MEB.
"Need" is a bit of a strong word... but I really really really really want one ;)
Alas, $75 is not something I can just throw around, to say the very least. I'm quite poor. The super-brief explanation (probably the best, here) is that I live with my disabled mother -- in return for helping her with what she needs, I'm provided with a home and food and all that good stuff. Unfortunately, her check is only about $1k/mo -- she made the "mistake" of being mostly self-employed during her ~55 years of being a working person (that sort of thing screws you over if you get disabled, apparently). So we're technically in the black, but only just barely. I really don't know how she does it -- but finances are total wizardry to me, to begin with...
A $75 want goes on either my birthday list or my Christmas list (depending on what time of year it is) -- since it's well past June, it'll be on my Christmas list this year. *shrug* it's just how it goes. It's hard, but what choice do I have?
I didn't buy you a birthday present last year just drop me a mail with what you want.
Justin _______________________________________________ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
On 11/7/2013 5:51 PM, Justin Cormack wrote:
On 4 Nov 2013 16:07, "Christopher Havel" <laserhawk64@gmail.com mailto:laserhawk64@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11/4/2013 5:00 AM, Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2013 14:03:57 Christopher Havel wrote:
(1) *approximately* how much would it cost me to get an MEB, a current CPU Card (I assume that'd be A10 based?) and a case,
almost-ready-to-go
(as in, assemble the case, stick in the card, and drop on an OS), including shipping...? I'm in NC, US -- ZIP+4 for me is 27344-6644. (...or are we not quite there yet? I'm a little confused on that one.) To be super de doober clear -- estimate, not quote :P
When do you need it by?
If you can wait ~8 weeks for delivery: US$75 for MEB + A20 card. I
will know
Wednesday when this will launch, but I'm hoping we'll be taking
orders next
week.
(2a) how realistic is the idea of putting together a prototype of the VGA adapter I came up with using perfboard? (I can't afford custom
PCBs,
We already have a prototype VGA adapter done up. We'd like to offer
it as an
add-on but have not yet decided on pricing or worked out logistics
for it.
Most likely we will be releasing project files for it and you can
whip one up
yourself that attaches to the 44 pin DIL on the MEB.
"Need" is a bit of a strong word... but I really really really
really want one ;)
Alas, $75 is not something I can just throw around, to say the very
least. I'm quite poor. The super-brief explanation (probably the best, here) is that I live with my disabled mother -- in return for helping her with what she needs, I'm provided with a home and food and all that good stuff. Unfortunately, her check is only about $1k/mo -- she made the "mistake" of being mostly self-employed during her ~55 years of being a working person (that sort of thing screws you over if you get disabled, apparently). So we're technically in the black, but only just barely. I really don't know how she does it -- but finances are total wizardry to me, to begin with...
A $75 want goes on either my birthday list or my Christmas list
(depending on what time of year it is) -- since it's well past June, it'll be on my Christmas list this year. *shrug* it's just how it goes. It's hard, but what choice do I have?
I didn't buy you a birthday present last year just drop me a mail with what you want.
Justin
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
Justin, I'm not complaining or anything but I am a little confused -- I wasn't on the list last year! I joined like less than a month ago...
Dear Aaron,
If you can wait ~8 weeks for delivery: US$75 for MEB + A20 card. I will know Wednesday when this will launch, but I’m hoping we’ll be taking orders next week.
can you please introduce yourself and your position in the MEB/EOMA68-A20 projects? As far as I know the MEB is produced by Christopher Thomas and I was going to buy it from him. In the case of EOMA68-A20 it was Luke Leighton.
Thank you, Arokux
On Monday, November 4, 2013 18:12:18 Arokux X wrote:
Dear Aaron,
If you can wait ~8 weeks for delivery: US$75 for MEB + A20 card. I will know Wednesday when this will launch, but I’m hoping we’ll be taking orders next week.
can you please introduce yourself and your position in the MEB/EOMA68-A20 projects?
Sure :)
For the last many years, I’ve been a Free software developer. It’s what I do for a living, and that was a conscious decision. I won’t bore you with the details .. but it may be useful/interesting to know that I do what I do because I believe in the importance of Free and open technology in a world that increasingly relies on that same technology.
I also like computers and computing. A lot. ;)
~2 years ago a few of us started a project to bring a fully Free software mobile user experience into the world. We started off with a focus on tablets, and our UI work is based on the KDE Plasma frameworks which was designed for device spectrum computing in mind. I know that because I founded that project and continue to be one of the leads in what has become a relatively large team.
Quick, but relevant, aside: When I maintained the panels and various other bits in the KDE 3.x desktop: it was me, myself and I working on the panels and occasionally 1-2 others on the desktop layer, 1 person on the window manager and a small handful of people on other bits like the control center, though I also maintained that for a while, too. Today when we have in-person Plasma dev meetings, we easily hit the 15-20 person ceiling we usually put on them with many others not attending. There are probably close to 10 people who are paid to work on various parts of Plasma these days, and a multiplier on that of community contributors. Some have been with the project now since its beginning.
Relevancy? I am familiar with running open projects, building communities and finding ways to tie in business and other commercial interests. Without killing the community or people wanting to kill each other ;)
So, the result of our tablet effort is here:
We’ve even developed a full content distribution server to along with it (think “app store” but “less constrained and not a walled garden”). It is, of course, also Free software.
I took the Plasma Active UI to a number of hardware companies, several of which you’d recognize by name. Probably your non-tech friends would too. The answer I got repeatedly was “looks great, but we’ll wait until someone else takes the first plunge”. So I decided we’d have to take the first plunge.
After discovering the challenges with getting custom tablet hardware that you could count on:
* being produced in 6 months time * being GPL compliant
I eventually ran into the EOMA68 concept via Luke. We have Plasma Active booting and running on the AllWinner cards, including h/w accel graphics. Our hope is that one day the “flying squirrel” device will become a commercially available device running Plasma Active.
As that project saw its own share of hiccups, and having received an early revision of an engineering board for the A20, it occurred to me that we could take some of the things we’d learned in the process and do a engineering board as a proper, purchasable product.
It wasn’t going to happen with project management and some sense of retail logistics. I took that project on, oh, what, 6 weeks ago now? Sth like that...
As far as I know the MEB is produced by Christopher Thomas and I was going to buy it from him. In the case of EOMA68-A20 it was Luke Leighton.
Both are involved, yes. The A20 cards we’ll be purchasing via Luke’s business interests and Christopher is involved in the engineering of the engineering board along with another fellow.
When you buy one of these devices, those involved will be getting a share of the profit, so nobody is stealing out of the mouth of Christopher or anyone else. I believe in working together and making everyone win from things we accomplish as a team.
In the process of making this device, we’ve arranged for online purchasing, international shipping, retail boxing (and not just a boring generic box stuffed with bubble wrap ;), branding (yes, a name and a logo and everything! *gasp*) and what we hope can be the start of a more vigorous and visible online community around the EOMA68 platform.
On launch day i think there will be a few things that will surprise, in a good way, and am very excited to help make this happen.
More than anything, I can’t wait to see what you all make with them ...
If you have specific questions, I’ll do my best to answer them here. You can also find me on irc.freenode.net as aseigo, sometimes on skype by the same name and my email .. well, you have that already don’t you :)
On Mon, 2013-11-04 at 18:12 +0100, Arokux X wrote:
Dear Aaron,
If you can wait ~8 weeks for delivery: US$75 for MEB + A20 card. I will know Wednesday when this will launch, but I’m hoping we’ll be taking orders next week.
can you please introduce yourself
Arokux, Aaron is one of the legendary gods of Linux :)
(Aaron was due to release KDE tablet a while ago, but those were the early days when a project could mysteriously be 'interfered' with and it finds itself without working open source powered hardware.)
-----Original Message----- From: arm-netbook [mailto:arm-netbook-bounces@lists.phcomp.co.uk] On Behalf Of Aaron J. Seigo Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:01 AM To: Linux on small ARM machines Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Two Questions: MEB/Card/Case and VGA Proto
When do you need it by?
If you can wait ~8 weeks for delivery: US$75 for MEB + A20 card. I will know Wednesday when this will launch, but I’m hoping we’ll be taking orders next week.
-- Aaron J. Seigo
Aaron,
So what you are doing will replace the orders requested on the Rhombus-Tech Order Page (http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/orders/)?
If so, will you process all of the order requests placed there or do I need to cancel my order request posted there and create a new order with your company?
Craig Ballew
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Craig Ballew arm-netbook2013@mymemopad.com wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: arm-netbook [mailto:arm-netbook-bounces@lists.phcomp.co.uk] On Behalf Of Aaron J. Seigo Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:01 AM To: Linux on small ARM machines Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Two Questions: MEB/Card/Case and VGA Proto
When do you need it by?
If you can wait ~8 weeks for delivery: US$75 for MEB + A20 card. I will know Wednesday when this will launch, but I’m hoping we’ll be taking orders next week.
-- Aaron J. Seigo
Aaron,
So what you are doing will replace the orders requested on the Rhombus-Tech Order Page (http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/orders/)?
If so, will you process all of the order requests placed there or do I need to cancel my order request posted there and create a new order with your company?
this is a good question, one which i've raised with aaron. the approach i'd like to take is to notify everyone who's placed a preorder. so if you were to remove the preorder you would not receive a notification.
l.
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 8:43 PM, luke.leighton luke.leighton@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Craig Ballew arm-netbook2013@mymemopad.com wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: arm-netbook [mailto:arm-netbook-bounces@lists.phcomp.co.uk] On Behalf Of Aaron J. Seigo Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:01 AM To: Linux on small ARM machines Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Two Questions: MEB/Card/Case and VGA Proto
When do you need it by?
If you can wait ~8 weeks for delivery: US$75 for MEB + A20 card. I will know Wednesday when this will launch, but I’m hoping we’ll be taking orders next week.
-- Aaron J. Seigo
Aaron,
So what you are doing will replace the orders requested on the Rhombus-Tech Order Page (http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/orders/)?
If so, will you process all of the order requests placed there or do I need to cancel my order request posted there and create a new order with your company?
this is a good question, one which i've raised with aaron. the approach i'd like to take is to notify everyone who's placed a preorder. so if you were to remove the preorder you would not receive a notification.
l.
The pricing was way much more transparent with this info which got deleted
http://git.hands.com/?p=rhombus.git;a=commitdiff;h=1772b65a1999b5b7df12970d9...
Maybe it is a good idea to update it?
To tell the truth the EOMA project looses its "openness" in my opinion. It was first advertised to be an OSHW project. Then schematics of the EOMA68-A20 got closed. Then motivation for the pricing disappeared. I wonder what will happen next.
On Monday, November 4, 2013 21:09:52 Arokux X wrote:
To tell the truth the EOMA project looses its "openness" in my opinion. It was first advertised to be an OSHW project. Then schematics of the EOMA68-A20 got closed. Then motivation for the pricing disappeared. I wonder what will happen next.
i hope to help fix that. well, not all on my own, but with the help of everyone here. so:
* the upcoming MEB will be open hardware. it will sport the open hardware logo right on the PCB and we will host the layouts online for your enjoyment / forking / playing with. they currently exist in a git repository and i use kicad with them.
* coinciding with the MEB launch, a new website will be rolled out that can be used (or ignored :) by the community here. it will start out simple and contain various useful bits of information along with forums to get us all started ... and from there we will expand it together
* we will promote weekly videos posted showing different project concepts. we will create these videos as needed, but would love to promote community content as well / instead
* we will be hosting project files / schematics / etc in an online warehouse open to everyone.
* we will be providing opportunities for people to create custom devices and even work with people to productize their ideas where there is desire to do so. we will be offering a full range of coordination services including casework, PCB customization, boxing, branding, shipping. that work will be taken on by people and companies who are in the EOMA68 community and we will strongly encourage releasing the results as open hardware. to aid in this, we have a fledgling partner network that will be unveiled on launch that will be open (and gratis) to join for anyone with the desire and the skill set.
i’ll also address the elephant in the room regarding the new MEB hardware here:
the MEBv2 has been done largely behind the scenes.
why? well, so far the EOMA68 community has done lots of tinkering but quite honestly produced very, very little in the way actual “i can hold it in my hand” devices. this has led some to lose some faith in the community focus. personally, i’m a 100% believer in community .. but i also recognize it needs coordination. note: not imposed direction or leadership, but coordination.
i have been lurking in the outskirts of the EOMA68 world since last december; so while i’m not a newcomer to EOMA68, i am a newcomer to the community.
in recognition of the above, i decided to create a low-key, concerted and highly organized effort to create an MEB type product. this meant a small team working tightly together, and since this community lacks any sort of template for doing that the possibility of making a quality device in a short period of time by throwing schematics and ideas around on this list looked like a very low-odds-of-success type proposition.
trust me, it was hard enough to get something done in 6 weeks as we:
* made decisions like “usb2 or usb3”, “gig or just 10/100 ethernet” * 2-layer or 4-layer board * created the branding elements (logo, name, colors, etc) * had to do multiple prototype runs to prove the schematics
as i hope you can appreciate, the above things are completely ripe for bikeshedding discussions. just look at how difficult the relatively simple EEPROM layout discussion has been for reference.
Chris and I have been financing this effort out of our own pockets. between prototyping and branding, I’ve personally spent a thousands on this already. by the time all is done with production, a sum of money that could buy a small house in many developed nations will have been spent. i hope you can appreciate in light of that why i opted for a reliable method rather than toss this to the EOMA68 community which has yet to demonstrate its ability to produce such results.
my hope is that with this project behind us, we’ll be able to take the processes we used successfully and apply them in an open community context such that people in the wider community can replicate our successes and even, one hopes, improve on them.
the MEBv2 project has involved people from the existing EOMA68 community, such as Chris and Luke (and people you may not yet know very well, such as David), as well as myself. this is not the first EOMA68 relevant processes i’ve helped finance or been involved with, even if it is the first you may have heard of. so this is not an attempt to ‘hijack’ the EOMA68 community, but an exercise in creating a reproducable process that can produce success.
this community is in need of process that can be used to create amazing things together, and i hope that post-launch we can translate the processes used to make the MEBv2 a reality into the open community here to the benefit of all.
Dear Aaron,
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Aaron J. Seigo aseigo@kde.org wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2013 21:09:52 Arokux X wrote:
To tell the truth the EOMA project looses its "openness" in my opinion. It was first advertised to be an OSHW project. Then schematics of the EOMA68-A20 got closed. Then motivation for the pricing disappeared. I wonder what will happen next.
i hope to help fix that. well, not all on my own, but with the help of everyone here. so:
thank you for this lengthy E-mail. I really appreciate it. Let's hope for the best!
Kind regards, Arokux
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Aaron J. Seigo aseigo@kde.org wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2013 21:09:52 Arokux X wrote:
To tell the truth the EOMA project looses its "openness" in my opinion. It was first advertised to be an OSHW project. Then schematics of the EOMA68-A20 got closed. Then motivation for the pricing disappeared. I wonder what will happen next.
i hope to help fix that. well, not all on my own, but with the help of everyone here. so:
- the upcoming MEB will be open hardware.
hooraay. the first thing i want to do is merge the design with that of a router board i've been working on [in kicad]. phil hands kindly sent me an OpenWRT-based router with a gigabit 5-port switch on it that i can pick apart and check i've got the schematics right for it.
... so it begins...
l.
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Arokux X arokux@gmail.com wrote:
To tell the truth the EOMA project looses its "openness" in my opinion. It was first advertised to be an OSHW project. Then schematics of the EOMA68-A20 got closed. Then motivation for the pricing disappeared. I wonder what will happen next.
arokux: if people had come up with $10k to $20k at the beginning, or had helped contribute to creating the schematics and the PCB layout when i originally invited them to, or a thousand other things had happened, then what i *wanted* to happen right from the start - open hardware - would have happened.
as it turns out what i wanted to happen did not happen. so, that not having happened, i was forced to pursue other courses of action which would result in a successful business *such that*, after becoming financially independent, i might pursue the goals i have set out to achieve *without* having to be dependent on other people.
in short, i'm just as annoyed as you that the project has had to turn first into a commercial success *then* into an open hardware project. if that's the way it has to be to be a success i'll do what it takes.
oh - and btw: there's absolutely nothing stopping anyone *else* from implementing EOMA CPU Cards as Open Hardware Projects. it's an open standard, after all.
l.
:if people had come up with $10k to $20k at the beginning,
Troll!!!
...there is sooo many things wrong with saying that :)
Nobody owes open source projects a living.
Luke/Aaron, stop trolling us with your sad stories of poverty. and say something nice like "can someone build us 10 alpha quality EOMAs" and I'm sure at least 4 of us here would give it some serious thought.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:38 PM, joem joem@martindale-electric.co.uk wrote:
:if people had come up with $10k to $20k at the beginning,
Nobody owes open source projects a living.
i know. i just wanted to make sure that people are aware that they were given the opportunity to make this an open hardware project right from the start. that they did not do so means that they have absolutely no right to complain when i am forced to pursue other means to fulfil the goal.
joe, please allow me to be blunt and absolutely clear: please do not accuse me of poverty-level thinking on this list again.
l.
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 8:32 AM, luke.leighton luke.leighton@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:38 PM, joem joem@martindale-electric.co.uk wrote:
:if people had come up with $10k to $20k at the beginning,
Nobody owes open source projects a living.
i know. i just wanted to make sure that people are aware that they were given the opportunity to make this an open hardware project right from the start. that they did not do so means that they have absolutely no right to complain when i am forced to pursue other means to fulfil the goal.
joe, please allow me to be blunt and absolutely clear: please do not accuse me of poverty-level thinking on this list again.
... by contrast you're more than welcome to tell me privately.
i think it's time i made clear what the process is that i've followed up to this point. i've invited people to participate in open hardware product development. that has not happened. so i have had to push forward, finding creative ways to lower the barrier to entry. i will keep on pushing, and i will keep on finding ways to lower the barrier so that the project takes off. that's now *just* about to happen.
however what i *do not* want to end up doing is overstepping the mark, taking opportunities away from people which they would otherwise both learn and profit from. so there is a balancing act that i have to consider, and it's why i work in the open, to let people know what's going on, invite them to participate at every phase. if they prove self-sufficient i am happy to let them get on with it, however if nobody joins in and that step happens to be a critical step then i will get that task completed in any way that i am able.
so. arokux. PLEASE LISTEN: the goal is, always has been and always will be to make open hardware possible in the *very* unusual context of joining that with mass-volume factory production. it's a very odd mixture that has never been done before.
and - arokux, you've seen this: http://git.rhombus-tech.net/?p=eoma.git;a=tree;f=pcb/allwinner_a10/pcmcia
it's the full - completed - schematics for an open hardware EOMA68-A10/20 CPU Card. that was released over 22 months ago.
anyway. can we move on now, please?
l.
: anyway. can we move on now, please?
Hmmm... I thought that is what I said first time :D
FYI - I got 1 kilo dollar to spend a month. So far I spend $5k in 18 months and up to my neck in Cubieboards, SoM boards, LCDs, components, test jigs, boxes, etc, but only 2 EOMAs.
So far 50k of page hits and 250GB of downloads in last month alone.
I don't know what go on before but I know it takes at least 18 months of hard work before good news filters down to the right people.
Moving on, I got 1 kilo dollar per month to spend on open sourced projects so if you want to build a batch of 10 EOMAs at a time, I can get it done. It will reduce likely hood of making a big batch of faulty units. We eventually intend to make the completely GPL'd SoM boards as mentioned before. So we won't commercially produce your board or SoM boards to supply to the masses because we are not in the CPU board maker market or have any infrastructure to support the boards. Manufacturing your board will be like an interim step learning all the processes to get our own boards built for internal use. At best we will make 1k to 2k SoM boards a year for internal use, which is nothing compared to what EOMA hopes to become.
On Friday, November 8, 2013 20:38:32 joem wrote:
Luke/Aaron, stop trolling us with your sad stories of poverty.
Er ... I haven’t trolled anyone with stories of poverty.
The only reason I’ve mentioned the investments made thus far is to help provide context for the level of commitment from myself and my company; those investments have been entirely opaque to others here (which is fine: I don’t make such commitments to get public recognition) and therefore at least some people were surprised when I “suddenly” appeared on this list :)
That said: we are a small group on this list with aligned goals. We certainly don’t need to be picking at each other in this fashion. Let’s move on to better things ...
On Friday, November 8, 2013 20:38:32 joem wrote:
Luke/Aaron, stop trolling us with your sad stories of poverty.
:Er ... I haven’t trolled anyone with stories of poverty.
Not to worry Aaron, the joke got lost somewhere in the translation.
(It is long tradition to call Luke a troll for not taking our money and give us EOMAs :D )
On Saturday, November 9, 2013 20:51:58 joem wrote:
On Friday, November 8, 2013 20:38:32 joem wrote:
Luke/Aaron, stop trolling us with your sad stories of poverty.
: :Er ... I haven’t trolled anyone with stories of poverty.
Not to worry Aaron, the joke got lost somewhere in the translation.
(It is long tradition to call Luke a troll for not taking our money and give us EOMAs :D )
ah :) yes, i missed that cultural context indeed.
in which case, luke is the biggest troll. EVAR. ;)
and don’t worry: the days of us not taking your money are nigh at an end.
On Monday, November 4, 2013 19:43:56 luke.leighton wrote:
If so, will you process all of the order requests placed there or do I need to cancel my order request posted there and create a new order with your company?
this is a good question, one which i've raised with aaron. the approach i'd like to take is to notify everyone who's placed a preorder. so if you were to remove the preorder you would not receive a notification.
we will service everyone who has pre-ordered first. the way i expect this to work is:
* on launch day, Luke will send everyone who pre-reg’d an email with ordering instructions. i need to discuss this in a bit more detail with Luke, but my hope is that he can generate unique emails for each of you with a script, since that way i can feed Luke a series of ordering codes which you can use to identify your order as a pre-reg order
* everyone who orders with a pre-reg order gets theirs first
imho this is simple and fair. feedback welcome, of course.
arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
-
Aaron J. Seigo -
Arokux X -
Christopher Havel -
Christopher Thomas -
Craig Ballew -
joem -
Justin Cormack -
luke.leighton