after trying for 90 minutes to connect to accounts.google.com last night, with over twenty refreshes, finally obtaining just the HTML of a page then having to spend ANOTHER hour just to get the matching CSS... only to run into HTTP proxy problems and having to clear the cache and DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN....
... i'm absolutely sick and tired of the fucking fucked internet here, how it's interfering with my ability to communicate, get source code and much more.
so, i'm converting to offline imap, setting up the "prayer webmail" client, a cyrus imap server, and syncing everything to my laptop now i have the spare space on the 500GB SSD.
the only thing is... well... look at the numbers:
Folder INBOX [acc: lkcl]: Copy message UID 143 (98/155030) Remote:INBOX -> Local Folder INBOX.bak.sent [remote name [Gmail]/Sent Mail] [acc: lkcl]: Copy message UID 307 (116/55244) Remote:[Gmail]/Sent Mail -> Local Folder INBOX.bak.flagged [remote name [Gmail]/Starred] [acc: lkcl]: Copy message UID 508 (161/3185) Remote:[Gmail]/Starred -> Local Folder INBOX.bak.important [remote name [Gmail]/Important] [acc: lkcl]: Copy message UID 296 (114/51381) Remote:[Gmail]/Important -> Local
that's nearly 10 GIGABYTES of mail over a ten year period (i created the gmail account in 2006 when i was running out of space on my laptop to hold all the email i had in mutt Maildirs).
55 *thousand* messages in the "sent mail" folder. a hundred and fifty five thousand in the inbox.
after hacking offlineimap so that it would only use HTTPS proxy for connecting to accounts.google.com but would connect direct to imap.gmail.com (using a fixed IP address because the china government MODIFIES the DNS entries to point to the wrong locations...)....
... i was able to initiate the download / sync process. connectivity is so fucking slow it's about one message every... two to five seconds. at this rate it's going to take TWO HUNDRED hours to sync the entire mailbox. that's ten DAYS for god's sake.
we may actually have to go stay in a hotel in hong kong (where they have a 100 mbytes / sec internet connection) just so i can sync all the email.
dang.
l.
I'm pretty sure Gmail has an option to ignore emails before a certain point for POP3. I don't know about IMAP, though.
Is there a particular reason you're using IMAP rather than POP? You could very easily just download the new emails, leave them on the Gmail server, and delete them from your computer when you're done with them at the moment (with some custom settings on Gmail and/or on your email client).
On 12/16/16, Julie Marchant onpon4@riseup.net wrote:
I'm pretty sure Gmail has an option to ignore emails before a certain point for POP3.
yeah i came across that when enabling imap last night
I don't know about IMAP, though.
it doesn't
Is there a particular reason you're using IMAP rather than POP?
from what i understand it's a far better protocol. POP3 if i recall correctly, if you want to get even just the most recent messages you have to get EVERYTHING. there's absolutely no practical way i can grab 9.8gb of mail each time.
IMAP4 has a means to tell you which messages are most recent, it has UIDs per message... it's basically designed for synchronisation.
You could very easily just download the new emails, leave them on the Gmail server, and delete them from your computer when you're done with them at the moment (with some custom settings on Gmail and/or on your email client).
i need access to the full ten years of history of the messages that i've sent and received: it's proved invaluable numerous times. so deleting is not an option. also, it's simply flat-out impractical to consider at this point.
OfflineImapError: Server 'imap.gmail.com' closed connection, error on SELECT '[Gmail]/Important'. Server said: command: EXAMINE => socket error: <type 'exceptions.IOError'> - Too many read 0
... gotta love that... :)
so the combination of "need offline access" with "deleting impractical and undesirable" basically means "use IMAP because it's designed specifically for sychronisation.
offlineimap does *two way* synchronisation, so everything i write on the laptop will be *uploaded* to gmail, so that i can continue to use gmail in unusual circumstances.
later, once i'm confident with this setup, i can increase the hard drive space on my server, replicate the synchronisation, and shut down the gmail account (or turn it into a redirector).
l.
Hey Luke -- which is worse, in your opinion, Internet that sucks because of lawful corporate greediness, or Internet that sucks because of governmental meddling?
rant.
Here in my little town of Siler City, North Carolina, Murrika The Great (yeah right) -- population roughly eight thousand according to the 2010 census (would've been probably ~9k but the chicken plant died Oct '09)... we have basically three choices for Internet. Sort of. There's the phone co, the cable TV co, and weird $#!* mobile/cell phone stuff, unless you want to go to the local public library, which generously offers their computers for one hour per week (three, if you bring your own computer and leech their WiFi) -- mind you, they monitor and exclude certain content there, and the chances of any real security being present on those machines (and, therefore, a lack of a serious virus infestation, as well) is... unlikely at best. (I'm being /phenomenally/ generously diplomatic here.)
Most of the town's populace is in "Greater Siler City", i.e. out in the county (for you city dwellers, around here there's actual space between small towns... the next one away is Pittsboro, and there's /sixteen miles/ of cow-patty countryside in between...) and that includes me. I'm about a mile and a half past the Wal*Mart that's about a half-mile outside of the old town limits (they extended 'em for Wally World, go figure).
The cable company, Charter Communications, will only really affordably service you if you have a fairly short driveway -- if yours is 300ft (~91.5m) or less, they will pay for the cable installation. If it's at least an inch more, /you/ pay. We -- Mom and I -- were quoted, some years ago, a price of us$3,059.95 (yes, three thousand fifty-nine dollars and ninety-five cents) for that run. Five hundred feet. There's a technological reason for that -- they use RG-6 coax for the signal, and 300ft is as far as it can go without an expensive signal-booster in the line. We of course declined the small fortune in expenditure -- we wouldn't have been able to pay it even if we were that desperate -- and that was the end of that. Last I heard, which was early this year, they weren't even servicing the road I'm on any more at all. So that's option one.
Option two, the phone company (which, in addition to old-fashioned POTS --plain old telephone service, i.e. landline phone-- offers DSL services) is well known in these parts for defrauding customers by promising speeds far, far in excess of what they can actually deliver, and then refusing to be held responsible. There's option two.
Mom and I have option three. We have a Netgear router, model MBR1515, as issued to --and locked to-- Verizon Wireless. Inside that router is a little PCIe Mini Card 4g WWAN card, like you'd find in their (undoubtedly horribly cheap and nasty, but I'm not fool enough to find out) tablet offerings. We used to pay ~us$70 a month, but since we have a very very grandfathered "unlimited" 4g plan -- i.e., we're able to evade their incredibly strict data caps -- they've knocked our bill up us$20 every billing cycle. Eventually, they'll probably try and force us to submit, at which point, they'll be looking at losing a customer -- not that they actually /care/, mind you.
Unfortunately, Mom and I are in their antenna shadow, so our "4g" service is more like 2g service. You know those overpriced Dyson vacuum cleaners... the ones that "never lose suction"...? Neither does Verizon. Our tenuous tether is the modern equivalent of an acoustic coupler and a payphone with a noisy line, and the part that rankles me even more than the corporate apathy machine they have going, is that there's /absolutely no real need for it/ -- they're basically extorting people because they /can/ -- sure, they have radio-tower space to rent, and fiber and copper cables to lay, and all that -- but they're literally choosing to shake down their customers for the lunch money, because they know they can do it and get away with it. There is absolutely no financial reason whatsoever that they /have/ to set a data cap on people -- electrical pulses are by and large free (the electric company sends us sixty of them every second for about eleven cents every couple hours or thereabouts, although the rate depends on the weather a bit), and they can /more/ than handle the infrastructure costs they have, even with expansion. They're literally just being greedy #^@%$ for the sake of being greedy #^@%$, and it pisses me off no end.
Oh, by the way, that router? It regularly overheats, even with a rather gusty 120mm PC fan sitting in front of it... and consistently reboots itself, spontaneously, at almost exactly 9:30pm every day... it's maddening. Reboots take about five to ten minutes.
/rant.
So -- Luke -- what do you say...?
On 12/16/16, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Hey Luke -- which is worse, in your opinion, Internet that sucks because of lawful corporate greediness, or Internet that sucks because of governmental meddling?
all of the above and then technical incompetence as sugar on top
on the weather a bit), and they can /more/ than handle the infrastructure costs they have, even with expansion. They're literally just being greedy #^@%$ for the sake of being greedy #^@%$, and it pisses me off no end.
So -- Luke -- what do you say...?
f***'em'all. fund 3G / LTE open hardware replacements (cell towers *and* handsets), combined with 802.22 whitespace broadband operating on between 140 to 700mhz for long-range communications, all as SDR...
... then get the equipment FCC Certified so that it's known to be safe...
... then completely ignore the FCC entirely except for actual genuine safety reasons.
i've had it with hearing these kinds of stories [and experiencing them]
l.
p.s. yes, OpenBTS is developing 3G and 4G (LTE) as open hardware but they forgot to develop a client at the same time.
Unfortunately, government-owned and co-op Internet services are illegal in NC. I can't really specify how that happened without getting into politics, which I won't do, because that tends to cause electronic (and, occasionally, IRL) fistfights. No thanks!
On 12/16/16, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Unfortunately, government-owned and co-op Internet services are illegal in NC. I can't really specify how that happened without getting into politics, which I won't do, because that tends to cause electronic (and, occasionally, IRL) fistfights. No thanks!
look up robert david steele.
l.
Looked him up on Wikipedia. Sounds to me like he's a bit of a wingnut, sorry. I'm sure he's done good things for the open source cause -- but anyone who uses the term "false flag" about... well, let's just leave it at 'well-known events', is of questionable sanity at best, in my book. /Triply/ so for anyone who's been a guest of that Alex Jones guy. Sure, I believe in aliens -- I'll admit that -- but for me it's almost entirely a matter of statistics. I /certainly/ don't think there are lizard people from Mars taking over (or at least attempting to) multiple major national governments, FFS... Alex Jones does.
On 12/16/16, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Looked him up on Wikipedia. Sounds to me like he's a bit of a wingnut,
don't for god's sake trust what you read on wikipedia, it's "ignorance by consensus".
google the 2014 guardian newspaper article.
he's HIGHLY respected in the intelligence community.
l.
I'm afraid I'm one of those ignorant sheeple* who has an unshakable trust in Wiki. Sorry. I was raised to value sanity and common sense... I know you've had a bad experience with Wiki -- you've mentioned that, once or twice -- but I've yet to find anything on there that doesn't fit the definition of trustworthy that's in my dictionary. I should probably mention that I also don't believe in grudges -- I've learned that the hard way -- it just makes one sound old, bitter, and cratchety well beyond one's actual age. Not to mention it's bad for one's blood pressure and mental health in general.
If you're going to insist on going all conspiracy theorist on me, I'm afraid it'll fall on some rather deaf ears. Again, sorry, but, in addition to the above, Alex Jones and his ilk are the best reason I've ever heard that 'manure salesman' should be a licensed profession. My head's solidly grounded, and, thank you just the same, but I'd like to keep it that way...
I think, actually, I'll take this opportunity to ring off for the night. It's ~1am here, and that puts me a solid hour overdue...
* http://xkcd.com/1013/ -- well, maybe not... ;)
On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 12:52 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < lkcl@lkcl.net> wrote:
On 12/16/16, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Looked him up on Wikipedia. Sounds to me like he's a bit of a wingnut,
don't for god's sake trust what you read on wikipedia, it's "ignorance by consensus".
google the 2014 guardian newspaper article.
he's HIGHLY respected in the intelligence community.
l.
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On 12/16/16, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
I'm afraid I'm one of those ignorant sheeple* who has an unshakable trust in Wiki. Sorry. I was raised to value sanity and common sense... I know you've had a bad experience with Wiki -- you've mentioned that, once or twice --
it was four separate pages, four completely separate bunches of fuckwits, over something like an eight year period.
If you're going to insist on going all conspiracy theorist on me, I'm
read the guardian article. i can't be bothered with conspiracy theories, they're a waste of my time.
there's a conversation i'd like to have, which i cannot do if you're going to dismiss out-of-hand one of the key strategic people because of some fuckwits on wikipedia.
l.
heh this guy. i was read that article the other day :) and found some more on shared website, inc ones written by a curtain someone from this list, hint hint ;)
heres the article:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jun/19/open-sourc...
easy find, search the name + year. top result on duckduckgo
basically it looks like hes a open minded, innovator type person, who questioned the current way and attitude of the way the security services do things and looked, thought, seeked, tried,exploded alt ways but we know how the types of people in these org’s are stuck up there asses.... they really didn’t like him. bear in mind these people think its there right to trample on top of anyone/country. its there fault if they don’t manage to stop them
really nasty way of thinking.. and yet the ex top cia chief had just that attitude. we’re doomed. check out john pilger docs. theres a interview with the asshole him self. see for ya self what i mean.
the false flags is mentioned/talked about on a alex jones interview.... dont trust him... :/ :/ hmm watching it now.... :/
the article still holds out on its own anyway. still makes for new incites to alt way of security being done, one which sounds like a far less bad will spreading one.
On 12/16/16, Alexander Ross maillist_arm-netbook@aross.me wrote:
heh this guy. i was read that article the other day :) and found some more on shared website, inc ones written by a curtain someone from this list, hint hint ;)
... so you know where i'm going with this. it was the "open manifesto" (open health, open intelligence, open source, open information etc.) that robert steele wrote, after being accidentally inspired by the open approach in intelligence and finding that people in the wider intelligence community *liked* it, that caught my eye.
heres the article:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jun/19/open-sourc...
that's the one.
basically it looks like hes a open minded, innovator type person, who questioned the current way and attitude of the way the security services do things and looked, thought, seeked, tried,exploded alt ways
you mean explored not exploded :)
yep, after forming the u.s. navy seals intelligence corp, he looked at setting up a conference on "open sources in intelligence", and it was highly successful. but his bosses at the CIA didn't like it and refused to fund the next conference or permit him to go to it... so he quit.
basically he can see that the current approach is self-perpetuating, corrupt, and, from being *in* the CIA he *KNOWS* damn well that their approach is completely ineffective. aaaalll that information-gathering, with the associated violations of privacy, and it's completely ineffective at achieving its intended goal: stopping "terrorists" and criminals alike because it *doesn't provide actionable intelligence*.
it's *word-of-mouth* and sources *outside* of the intelligence community that *actually* provides the valuable, actionable intelligence and corroborated facts!
let me reiterate: people in the U.S. govt do *NOT* go to the CIA to find sources of information on which to make intelligence decisions, they go out on... guess what? the internet! and they communicate with people via... the internet!
so it's really not hard to imagine why robert made the intuitive leap that security is achieved through open access to information, but that's not enough: he had to witness how utterly ineffective the CIA really was (is), from the inside.
the article still holds out on its own anyway. still makes for new incites to alt way of security being done, one which sounds like a far less bad will spreading one.
yeah.
so, part of the series i'm writing is to advocate the funding of OpenBTS and projects like it, and to curtail the powers of the FCC.
l.
On 12/16/2016 12:52 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
don't for god's sake trust what you read on wikipedia, it's "ignorance by consensus".
google the 2014 guardian newspaper article.
he's HIGHLY respected in the intelligence community.
You mean this one?
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jun/19/open-sourc...
It's written by Nafeez Ahmed, a conspiracy theorist who thinks 9/11 was an inside job. That raises my skepticism alarm right away. Just trusting whatever some conspiracy theorist wrote in an article on the Guardian would be foolish. That said, I don't even know what this article has to do with Internet services or why you brought it up. It starts by promoting a bunch of books these two wrote and then goes on to talk about "open source intelligence", the idea of intelligence agencies that don't collect any secret data. Nothing in there at all is about Internet services.
The claim that Steele is "hugely respected" in the article, the only part of it that you specifically referenced, is entirely unsourced. It seems to just be Ahmed's unsubstantiated opinion.
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net writes:
after trying for 90 minutes to connect to accounts.google.com last night, with over twenty refreshes, finally obtaining just the HTML of a page then having to spend ANOTHER hour just to get the matching CSS... only to run into HTTP proxy problems and having to clear the cache and DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN....
... i'm absolutely sick and tired of the fucking fucked internet here, how it's interfering with my ability to communicate, get source code and much more.
so, i'm converting to offline imap, setting up the "prayer webmail" client, a cyrus imap server, and syncing everything to my laptop now i have the spare space on the 500GB SSD.
If you can deal with emacs, have a look at notmuch
Even if you cannot -- you should probably have a look at notmuch (there's a vim-based thingumy, and there are other front ends too)
the only thing is... well... look at the numbers:
Folder INBOX [acc: lkcl]: Copy message UID 143 (98/155030) Remote:INBOX -> Local Folder INBOX.bak.sent [remote name [Gmail]/Sent Mail] [acc: lkcl]: Copy message UID 307 (116/55244) Remote:[Gmail]/Sent Mail -> Local Folder INBOX.bak.flagged [remote name [Gmail]/Starred] [acc: lkcl]: Copy message UID 508 (161/3185) Remote:[Gmail]/Starred -> Local Folder INBOX.bak.important [remote name [Gmail]/Important] [acc: lkcl]: Copy message UID 296 (114/51381) Remote:[Gmail]/Important -> Local
that's nearly 10 GIGABYTES of mail over a ten year period (i created the gmail account in 2006 when i was running out of space on my laptop to hold all the email i had in mutt Maildirs).
55 *thousand* messages in the "sent mail" folder. a hundred and fifty five thousand in the inbox.
after hacking offlineimap so that it would only use HTTPS proxy for connecting to accounts.google.com but would connect direct to imap.gmail.com (using a fixed IP address because the china government MODIFIES the DNS entries to point to the wrong locations...)....
... i was able to initiate the download / sync process. connectivity is so fucking slow it's about one message every... two to five seconds. at this rate it's going to take TWO HUNDRED hours to sync the entire mailbox. that's ten DAYS for god's sake.
we may actually have to go stay in a hotel in hong kong (where they have a 100 mbytes / sec internet connection) just so i can sync all the email.
If you point notmuch at that it'll say something like:
523,567 mails, that's not much mail...
and you'll be able to do similar searchy things to what you probably got used to with google.
I tend to shunt my inbox into an archive directory so that I can use dumb imap on my phone and not need to fill the phone with 110k of mails, but I know I've got more mail than you're talking about, and searches return useful results in sub-second mostly.
% find ./Maildir -type f | wc -l 559007 % du -hs Maildir 12G Maildir
Cheers, Phil.
On 12/16/16, Philip Hands phil@hands.com wrote:
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net writes:
after trying for 90 minutes to connect to accounts.google.com last night, with over twenty refreshes, finally obtaining just the HTML of a page then having to spend ANOTHER hour just to get the matching CSS... only to run into HTTP proxy problems and having to clear the cache and DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN....
... i'm absolutely sick and tired of the fucking fucked internet here, how it's interfering with my ability to communicate, get source code and much more.
so, i'm converting to offline imap, setting up the "prayer webmail" client, a cyrus imap server, and syncing everything to my laptop now i have the spare space on the 500GB SSD.
If you can deal with emacs, have a look at notmuch
i remember you mentioning it a few years ago, so yes, i installed it in preparation, a few days ago. only did cyrus last night so haven't got round to configuring it
Even if you cannot -- you should probably have a look at notmuch (there's a vim-based thingumy, and there are other front ends too)
yeah i decided to go with the web-based front-end, it seems sane and like prayer-webmail-imap-client doesn't depend on php...
we may actually have to go stay in a hotel in hong kong (where they have a 100 mbytes / sec internet connection) just so i can sync all the email.
If you point notmuch at that it'll say something like:
523,567 mails, that's not much mail...
:)
and you'll be able to do similar searchy things to what you probably got used to with google.
goooood
I tend to shunt my inbox into an archive directory so that I can use dumb imap on my phone and not need to fill the phone with 110k of mails,
yehhh the whole reason i started using gmail was because i'd had HDDs die, i had several gig of maildirs, not enough space: when i started with SSDs the capacity was just far too small. now it's up to sane amounts.
but I know I've got more mail than you're talking about, and searches return useful results in sub-second mostly.
faantastic. yeah i can't remember what the dependency was for the indexing but i've seen it used before and it's pretty damn good.
% find ./Maildir -type f | wc -l 559007 % du -hs Maildir 12G Maildir
frickin mad, innit? :)
l.
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-
Alexander Ross -
Christopher Havel -
Julie Marchant -
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton -
Philip Hands