Regarding moderator approval. I ask you to display this email on the emailing list. Thereby enabling transparency and ensuring that subscribers get to know my arguments. Not doing so I will hold against you.
you seem to believe that you have the right to do whatever you want: you don't. every time i have asked you to respect my authority you have ducked or ignored the question.
I think you are as happened before exaggerating, and misrepresenting what previous disputes we have had. About what follows I have not searched for documentation in previous posts and emails. Because I am not going to do the effort.
First one. On another forum I made some critical posts about the pc card crowdfunding. I did so because it can be beneficial for the owner of a project to get more angles on his work and everyone should be scrutinized. My main critique was including the pc card laptop housing in a crowdfunding. My point of view was that for a one person enterprise that would be to big a task. It would require a frictionless course. It turned out I was right. No usable parts have been manufactured so far? Instead I would have concentrated on getting more people to buy the pc card. If lkcl wanted to shut me up or not, I do not know. He could not. It was not his forum. Lkcl accused me of sabotaging the crowdfunding. Said I could make the crowdfunding fail. An undocumented claim and heavily questionable, which I told him. Without being obligated to, I told lkcl I would stop further postings, should he want me to. I had made my points known.
Second one. When posting emails on the arm netbook emailing list, I wanted to keep all previous posts unedited in my next post. Lkcl told me, that is not how it is done. And he explained how I should edit posts and importantly why I should edit. One argument was, he had to read a high number of emails and edited posts were time saving for him. I have to accept that my english writing skills are limited. My answer to him may have been unclear. The content of my answering post was, every email list member should decide for himself how to edit a post. But I accepted his arguments about editing posts and told him I would concur. Then lkcl misread my post. Believing I would not concur. Therefore lkcl told me, I had to make a specific declaration about complying to the rules about posting. Having done nothing wrong and perceiving lkcl's request as unnecessarily cornering, I wrote in a post, that he had misread my post and he could take any action he should want to. Then I got on the moderation approval list. To my knowledge from that point none of my postings have not complied to rules about posting. At some point, not on me request, I got off the moderator list.
Third one. In a post I mentioned lkcl in third person. I was not aware it would be a rude action. Because I am addressing a bunch of people. When lkcl asked me to not do so, I explained why I had phrased the sentence like I did. To me the matter was insignificant. And I saw no reason to alter my phrasing. It resulted in lkcl escalating the matter to become relevant for the moderator approval list. Looking back on lkcl's outbursting tendencies I did not pay any attention to it. Even more because lkcl dances with profanities. Which I do not.
All this in order to show that I do not do whatever I want. Some times I do not listen.
I mentioned my free speech in a post. It resulted in several rubbish comments. I was not referring to any legal system. I wanted to state my point of view on free speech in a forum or on an emailing list.
Lkcl, since you are in favor of straightening things out and not dodge, answer these questions about your emailing list:
Should your emailing list aspire to grand the highest level of free speech? Do you adhere to the principle of equal matters must be dealt with equally? Do you adhere to the principle of proportionality?
Because you own this emailing list, you can do whatever you want. I am not questioning that. The question is should you do whatever you want? How you manage your email list tells a tale about you. If your answer to my 3 questions are no, then I have misread you as a person and you do not have to unsubscribe me. I do it myself.
When I wrote 'Has lkcl' you managed to infringe on all 3 principles. There are no strong reasons, other than your vanity, to prohibit such phrasing. I cannot write third person. You write profanities, masked or not. If using third person is an infraction, it is a minor. Calling in the moderator approval list is an overreaction.
Part 2. Lkcl has thrown into the air that I may be infringing on one or more laws and maybe a license or certification. I have no overview on this matter.
do you, ron wirring, accept that i am the SOLE EXCLUSIVE Copyright Holder of the EOMA68 Standard? please answer simply yes or no.
I am not going to answer yes or no until I know what I am answering yes or no to.
First I want to say, I have never read the standards. I have no idea about the purchase agreement. Which laws apply. Which certification. Which licenses. The reason is the pc card is to me no more important than buying a mixer. If I get a pc card, fine. If not, it was a nice initiative. Lkcl will probably blame me for this approach. Does not matter. I am not going to put an effort into getting knowledgeable on these matters for an item which may not get shipped and due to what it costs. In wanting to make the asus eeepc accept pc cards I can have done a lot of infringements not knowing it. Lkcl suddenly shouting about trademarks and copyright came as a surprise to me. When this is sorted out, what stands is I have no intention infringing on anything. This is my look on it. I have no use for the pc card. Maybe it can run a freedombox. Then I thought I would like to have an asus eeepc which accepts pc cards. Lkcl was firmly against it. Costs could spiral. I appreciated the warning. The computer could catch fire. An important warning. But I planned to power it by power supply and a power bank via usb and not at the same time. I soon found out the task was to difficult for me. I stopped further steps. I do not remember any posts about trademarks, copyright or certification. I thought getting a pc card was like getting a raspberry pi. You can use it like you want. Then one person on this email list said, I think we can make it. And I restarted the matter. Again lkcl stated his objections. I noticed lkcl would participate in making the computer secure. On that I thanked him, because he already has enough to do. Now it is about infringements. Am I not allowed to make a pc card housing? Is this what it is about? Then why would you participate? You demanded to get to approve the battery hardware setup. On which I agreed. So did picugins, what more are you asking for? Can you display the law text in question I am infringing on?
also if you do not answer "yes" i will NOT grant you permission, AS IS MY RIGHT UNDER COPYRIGHT LAW, to utilise the word "EOMA68" in ANY way, shape or form.
I do not have any intention on utilizing the word eoma68. What exactly are you referring to? That I will put an eoma68 sticker on the computer? That I may not publish a picture of the computer and a text saying, this is a computer which accepts eoma68 pc cards? Is that it? If so no problem. I will not. Explain what you are asking for?
You should have anticipated someone would want to do their own pc card housing. On your website you should make a page displaying what you can and cannot do in regards to a pc card housing. It should show what law texts are into play. Show certifications.
within 72 hours
We do not know if the pc card gets shipped. We do not know if the asus eeepc housing will be made. Why not make it 24 hours?
Don't make enemies where you don't have to, Luke. I'm just sayin'.
Lkcl is not my enemy. He does not snide. You do not doubt lkcl goes a long way to achieve his goal. You know he will not skip his principles. On communicating however.
forced to simply unsubscribe you from this list
Why unsubscribe? Can't you disable my option to post? It would be a less extensive action. The emails are public in the archive anyway.
do you wish me to terminate this project
Who here does not understand your frustration? What does it have to do with what I am doing?
Next time you are accusing me from nowhere and misrepresenting what I have done previously I will not answer this lengthy. I will know you are doing it on purpose.
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apologies i am going to keep this brief, i am on the clock, an extremely limited amount of time for this visit to the UK... which this is causing massive problems for me to have to deal with. so please STOP taking up my time.
On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 5:09 PM, ronwirring@safe-mail.net wrote:
Regarding moderator approval. I ask you to display this email on the emailing list.
you can ask, but i go by its contents NOT by whether you have asked. you are still in moderation because you're pissing everybody off.
you seem to believe that you have the right to do whatever you want: you don't. every time i have asked you to respect my authority you have ducked or ignored the question.
I think you are as happened before exaggerating, and misrepresenting what previous disputes we have had.
no... i haven't. you fail, plain and simple, to state clearly that you respect the rules that are set. this is why you were placed into moderation for several months, and you have STILL failed to clearly state that you intend to respect the rules that i set.
About what follows I have not searched for documentation in previous posts and emails. Because I am not going to do the effort.
well, that's just plain fucking rude and is directly contrary to every single netiquette rule covering interaction with people on a mailing list for about 30+ years. why the fuck should WE do YOUR work for you when you can't fucking well be bothered to do your own research.
we're not your "lackeys" ron, helping you to "suck on the great documentation tit in the sky".
First one. On another forum I made some critical posts about the pc card crowdfunding. I did so because it can be beneficial for the owner of a project to get more angles on his work and everyone should be scrutinized. My main critique was including the pc card laptop housing in a crowdfunding.
_great_. and that's the only reason why people are now tolerating you. you're pissing everyone off, ron.
My point of view was that for a one person enterprise that would be to big a task. It would require a frictionless course. It turned out I was right. No usable parts have been manufactured so far? Instead I would have concentrated on getting more people to buy the pc card. If lkcl wanted to shut me up or not, I do not know. He could not. It was not his forum. Lkcl accused me of sabotaging the crowdfunding. Said I could make the crowdfunding fail.
no, you could undermine the entire EOMA68 project by killing someone through your incompetence and unwillingness to listen to advice. which is much much more serious.
Second one. When posting emails on the arm netbook emailing list, I wanted to keep all previous posts unedited in my next post. Lkcl told me, that is not how it is done.
actually several people did. you can't decide what rules YOU want to follow. you have to follow the rules of interaction that suit EVERYONE.
NOT your own fucking PERSONAL and SELFISH needs.
And he explained how I should edit posts and importantly why I should edit. One argument was, he had to read a high number of emails and edited posts were time saving for him.
AND EVERYONE ELSE ON THE LIST.
I have to accept that my english writing skills are limited.
great. this is progress.
My answer to him may have been unclear.
... actually, you evaded the question "will you follow the rules, yes or no". *that* is why you were placed into moderation. it was your unwillingness to LISTEN.
The content of my answering post was, every email list member should decide for himself how to edit a post.
absofuckinglutely NOT. there are FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY OTHER PEOPLE YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT ron.
But I accepted his arguments about editing posts and told him I would concur.
actually... you didn't.
Then lkcl misread my post. Believing I would not concur. Therefore lkcl told me, I had to make a specific declaration about complying to the rules about posting.
... which you did... for about a day. and then stopped.
To my knowledge from that point none of my postings have not complied to rules about posting. At some point, not on me request, I got off the moderator list.
yes... because despite you NOT having actually explicitly agreed to .... you know what? this is taking up far too much of my valuable time. i am under a LOT OF PRESSURE right now, i cannot be dealing with this.
I mentioned my free speech in a post. It resulted in several rubbish comments.
no... you pissed a lot of people off... and you've now indicated that you don't give a shit about what other people think, ron.
this is not a good sign.
Lkcl, since you are in favor of straightening things out and not dodge, answer these questions about your emailing list:
Should your emailing list aspire to grand the highest level of free speech?
fuck no.
Do you adhere to the principle of equal matters must be dealt with equally?
when it comes to my obligations under the Certification Mark, i am *required* to be "FRAND" (Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory).
outside of that legal obligation, FUCK no.
Do you adhere to the principle of proportionality?
don't know what it means.... don't really care at this point. all i can say is: when it comes to my obligations under the Certification Mark, i am *required* to be "FRAND" (Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory).
basically i follow the "Bill of Ethics" as written by Bob Podolski. i'd say "go look it up" but you've already indicated that you don't give a fuck about following people's recommendations.
Because you own this emailing list, you can do whatever you want. I am not questioning that. The question is should you do whatever you want?
an interesting point.... governed by the Bill of Ethics and the goals that i have set.
How you manage your email list tells a tale about you. If your answer to my 3 questions are no, then I have misread you as a person and you do not have to unsubscribe me. I do it myself.
that's your right.
When I wrote 'Has lkcl' you managed to infringe on all 3 principles. There are no strong reasons, other than your vanity, to prohibit such phrasing. I cannot write third person. You write profanities, masked or not. If using third person is an infraction, it is a minor. Calling in the moderator approval list is an overreaction.
not at all.
Part 2. Lkcl has thrown into the air that I may be infringing on one or more laws and maybe a license or certification. I have no overview on this matter.
you're required to respect the law. in this case, copyright law. which you've indicated that you can't be bothered to research and read up on. which makes you DANGEROUS to the project.
do you, ron wirring, accept that i am the SOLE EXCLUSIVE Copyright Holder of the EOMA68 Standard? please answer simply yes or no.
I am not going to answer yes or no until I know what I am answering yes or no to.
well, it's real simple: if i am the copyright holder of a work, and i make that clear, i'm asking, "do you respect Copyright Law and my rights AS a Copyright Holder?"
it's REAL simple, ron.
First I want to say, I have never read the standards.
whoops. that's not a good sign.
I have no idea about the purchase agreement. Which laws apply. Which certification. Which licenses. The reason is the pc card is to me no more important than buying a mixer. If I get a pc card, fine. If not, it was a nice initiative. Lkcl will probably blame me for this approach. Does not matter. I am not going to put an effort into getting knowledgeable on these matters for an item which may not get shipped and due to what it costs. In wanting to make the asus eeepc accept pc cards I can have done a lot of infringements not knowing it.
ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Lkcl suddenly shouting about trademarks and copyright came as a surprise to me.
well of course it's fucking well copyrighted, what did you expect!! Copyright Law applies to EVERYTHING for fuck's sake!
Am I not allowed to make a pc card housing?
i've already explained this to you that there are two conditions, one where you do NOT make mention of "EOMA68" - anywhere - in which case you can do whatever you like.
but if you mention "EOMA68" *ANYWHERE* you are NOT permitted to do ANYTHING without my EXPRESSED AND EXPLICIT APPROVAL.
come on, ron, this isn't hard.
Is this what it is about? Then why would you participate? You demanded to get to approve the battery hardware setup. On which I agreed. So did picugins, what more are you asking for? Can you display the law text in question I am infringing on?
fucking well look it up for yourself! fuck me, i'm not your mother for fuck's sake. do your own fucking research!!! stop making everyone else your lackey!
jaezuss.
also if you do not answer "yes" i will NOT grant you permission, AS IS MY RIGHT UNDER COPYRIGHT LAW, to utilise the word "EOMA68" in ANY way, shape or form.
I do not have any intention on utilizing the word eoma68.
GOOD. i am going to hold you to that. it's the only reason why i've let this message get through to the list. you are also not permitted to mention EOMA68 on any documentation that you write and release publicly.
WHEN you are mentally ready to understand the implications of what you're doing - and have actually fucking well bothered to read the EOMA68 Standard - THEN we can talk about compliance *WITH* that Standard, and IF and ONLY if you conform FULLY with the Standard will i grant you the right to put EOMA68 on "stuff".
this is *basic* stuff.
What exactly are you referring to? That I will put an eoma68 sticker on the computer?
just like "Bluetooth Low Energy" (BLE) or "HDMI" or "RYF Hardware Endorsed"... on the computer, on public documentation, on public web sites, on *anything*.... yes.
That I may not publish a picture of the computer and a text saying, this is a computer which accepts eoma68 pc cards?
that's absolutely correct.
Is that it?
with the above additions and corrections... yes. the absolute last thing that is needed is for you to make a mistake (because you didn't fucking well read the Standard) and end up being responsible for KILLING someone.... oh and the investigators find the word "EOMA68" and start blaming *ME*. that would be... apart from the loss of life being.... i can't even find the right words here.
If so no problem. I will not.
_great_
Explain what you are asking for?
You should have anticipated someone would want to do their own pc card housing.
i did. years ago. there just haven't been any people who've DISAGREED with or fundamentally questioned my rights and responsibilities as the Copyright Holder and Guardian of the EOMA68 Standard as you have, ron.
everyone else i've talked to has implicitly understood it and gone, "ok i get it".
On your website you should make a page displaying what you can and cannot do in regards to a pc card housing. It should show what law texts are into play. Show certifications.
yes. i know. if i am honest, i have been kinda avoiding doing that. it's down to the huge responsibility. i don't *want* to tell people "no you can't", i want to EMPOWER people rather than DISempower them... and saying "no".... *sigh*.
ok enough. too long taken already.
one of the main reasons i tolerate you, ron, is because you are actually extremely useful. you *do* pick up on the "things that are missing". yes, i really should have a section on the Standards page saying "EOMA68 is a Certification Mark". this is actually required by law.
*sigh* if anyone can help with that, it would be really apprecaited. both the elinux.org standards page *and* the rhombus tech wiki.
l.
Let there be two "levels" of EOMA68. "EOMA68" by itself can be construed from now on to mean "compatible with the standard in some reasonable way". Then, /with a separate and distinct but visually similar/ logo - "EOMA68 Certified", which is exactly that.
That doesn't get around the internationalization problem.
If someone doesn't speak english and they are reading an english label, not seeing the word certified anywhere but in fact seeing the word EOMA68, then they might falsely assume the device is certified.
[void all warrantees] if an EOMA68-Certified device is connected to an EOMA68 non-certified device. That's rude as heck, IMNSHO, but it does the job.
Luke, wouldn't and again "can't" do that. Luke is the guardian of a standard and a consultant for ThinkPenguin, helping them develop their card and documenting everything possible.
I mean Luke could advise ThinkPenguin to do that, but it's kinda ridiculous and doesn't fix the internationalization problem. When we talk about someone following these instructions, we're talking about a sleezy electronics repair shop owner in China. When we talk about someone dieing, we are talking about that shop owner's customer who bought a pyra computer after getting shown an instructables page in english (which they can't read), and being pointed to the word EOMA68.
This is a very realistic and also very real scenario that happens everyday all over the world.
This is why China Geo-blocks the rest of the world.
I think it's important to remember Ron also said this :)
Lkcl is not my enemy. He does not snide. You do not doubt lkcl goes a long way to achieve his goal. You know he will not skip his principles. On communicating however.
Most everything else seemed like venting misunderstanding. Well articulated, though!
This falls pretty religiously under trademark law. However, in this case; the case of a certification mark, that trademark law is more strict than copyright because there is no fair use and hobby projects will count as commercial use of the term in most jurisdictions.
Not using the word EOMA68 and covering up the mark on any pictures, is pretty important if we don't want to give geo-restrictions a reason to exist. And, I'm sure Luke doesn't.
---
Can we all just be civil though? I feel like I've explained this all well enough, is there really anyone who can still disagree this is the correct course of action?
Correction, it is fair use to criticize or make commentary.
Otherwise the word EOMA68 is essentially a copyrighted word.
It's kinda funny and scary to think such things exist.
However they kind of have to, because the confusion does endanger people.
I'll admit the possibility of a battery fire killing someone here is low, because, if it was likely, then no website would host the documentation.
The issue is that someone could get hurt as the result of a language barrier. That is something that creates issues of legal liability in addition to the moral what-the-fuck.
Also, who is likely to trust a certification if a sleezy seller can get away with a stunt like that?
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Jean Flamelle eaterjolly@gmail.com wrote:
Let there be two "levels" of EOMA68. "EOMA68" by itself can be construed from now on to mean "compatible with the standard in some reasonable way". Then, /with a separate and distinct but visually similar/ logo - "EOMA68 Certified", which is exactly that.
remember this is a mass-volume standard, the suggestion itself would cause massive confusion. think in terms of, "does the FSF allow such unclear distinctions about RYF Endorsement" and "why not" and the answer is, "because confusion has disastrous consequences"
also, which one is "OKAY" if one "lesser variant" of the standard can kill someone, but the other one can't?
... neither are ok, are they?
That doesn't get around the internationalization problem.
no... and i am legally NOT PERMITTED to subdivide continents and apply different "rules".... because that would be anti-D as in FRAND as in "Discriminatory".
If someone doesn't speak english and they are reading an english label, not seeing the word certified anywhere but in fact seeing the word EOMA68, then they might falsely assume the device is certified.
nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE" or the Certification Mark "HDMI".
argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry. REALLY limited time right now.
nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE" or the Certification Mark "HDMI".
argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry. REALLY limited time right now.
Don't worry, I think I understand your point of view and I'm trying to put it in terms everyone else can follow. At least, I hope that's what I'm doing.
Those are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about.
If someone implements bad HDMI, then I assume they'll get sued if they even mention the word HDMI. Likewise if a hobbyist documents hacking an HDMI port to connect to a chip inside an adapter that converts it composite video, they'll run into either geo-restrictions or legal trouble, if that adapter fries the HDMI port.
In the US people can say whatever they want, but, elsewhere in the world, they'll say 18-pin audio-video port to save their butts. And, again, for good reason because of scam artists exploiting language barriers.
BLE they will say custom wifi.
---
Luke has mentioned that if Intel makes a card the even looks slightly confuse-able for an EOMA68, without being certified then that would be infringement of the certification.
I presume HDMI has probably tested this in various courts, because, if a someone implements bad HDMI, they can't just get away with it by calling it something else. So that's another way how certification law, could be stricter than copyright or trademark law. But, I find it hard to believe patents owned by HDMI wouldn't be involved in securing a case like that.
Another quick phone post.
YedIf the problem with my idea is the word "certified" - DON'T USE THAT WORD IN THE LOGO but require it somewhere nearby in a local language to the intended geographic region where the device is to be sold.
Also, the very idea of my two levels, two labels approach is to avoid confusion. This isn't rocket science. Put away the hydrazine lol.
On Feb 15, 2018 7:34 AM, "Jean Flamelle" eaterjolly@gmail.com wrote:
nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE" or the Certification Mark "HDMI".
argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry. REALLY limited time right now.
Don't worry, I think I understand your point of view and I'm trying to put it in terms everyone else can follow. At least, I hope that's what I'm doing.
Those are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about.
If someone implements bad HDMI, then I assume they'll get sued if they even mention the word HDMI. Likewise if a hobbyist documents hacking an HDMI port to connect to a chip inside an adapter that converts it composite video, they'll run into either geo-restrictions or legal trouble, if that adapter fries the HDMI port.
In the US people can say whatever they want, but, elsewhere in the world, they'll say 18-pin audio-video port to save their butts. And, again, for good reason because of scam artists exploiting language barriers.
BLE they will say custom wifi.
Luke has mentioned that if Intel makes a card the even looks slightly confuse-able for an EOMA68, without being certified then that would be infringement of the certification.
I presume HDMI has probably tested this in various courts, because, if a someone implements bad HDMI, they can't just get away with it by calling it something else. So that's another way how certification law, could be stricter than copyright or trademark law. But, I find it hard to believe patents owned by HDMI wouldn't be involved in securing a case like that.
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if specific to one country that would be fine chris. EOMA68 like HDMI and BLE is not intended for one country. it's global. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Another quick phone post.
YedIf the problem with my idea is the word "certified" - DON'T USE THAT WORD IN THE LOGO but require it somewhere nearby in a local language to the intended geographic region where the device is to be sold.
Also, the very idea of my two levels, two labels approach is to avoid confusion. This isn't rocket science. Put away the hydrazine lol.
On Feb 15, 2018 7:34 AM, "Jean Flamelle" eaterjolly@gmail.com wrote:
nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE" or the Certification Mark "HDMI".
argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry. REALLY limited time right now.
Don't worry, I think I understand your point of view and I'm trying to put it in terms everyone else can follow. At least, I hope that's what I'm doing.
Those are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about.
If someone implements bad HDMI, then I assume they'll get sued if they even mention the word HDMI. Likewise if a hobbyist documents hacking an HDMI port to connect to a chip inside an adapter that converts it composite video, they'll run into either geo-restrictions or legal trouble, if that adapter fries the HDMI port.
In the US people can say whatever they want, but, elsewhere in the world, they'll say 18-pin audio-video port to save their butts. And, again, for good reason because of scam artists exploiting language barriers.
BLE they will say custom wifi.
Luke has mentioned that if Intel makes a card the even looks slightly confuse-able for an EOMA68, without being certified then that would be infringement of the certification.
I presume HDMI has probably tested this in various courts, because, if a someone implements bad HDMI, they can't just get away with it by calling it something else. So that's another way how certification law, could be stricter than copyright or trademark law. But, I find it hard to believe patents owned by HDMI wouldn't be involved in securing a case like that.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
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On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net
wrote:
if specific to one country that would be fine chris. EOMA68 like HDMI and BLE is not intended for one country. it's global.
Hence why I said "in a local language to the geographic region" where the intended market is. Obviously there would be more than one of these. Each manufacturer would be required to write it in eg their own local language, be that English, Simplified Chinese, some Sanskrit dialect, or whatever. If they're selling to another region, then THAT region's language takes precedence -- for example, if a US company wanted to sell to the Tamil Tigers (which would be problematic, but for other reasons) -- they would write the words "EOMA68 Certified" in Tamil.
If you want to be extra careful, since English really is something of a Lingua Franca across the globe at this point, you could require it to be written TWICE -- once in English and once in the local language.
Again, this isn't rocket science... I really don't understand the resistance to what is actually a simple and elegant solution that would cause a minimum of confusion, if any at all...
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net
wrote:
if specific to one country that would be fine chris. EOMA68 like HDMI and BLE is not intended for one country. it's global.
Hence why I said "in a local language to the geographic region" where the intended market is. Obviously there would be more than one of these. Each manufacturer would be required to write it in eg their own local language,
Trademarks and Certification Marks yes you could do that... but you don't translate the "M" of "Macdonalds" just as you don't translate "HDMI" or "BLE" or "RYF Endorsed". you apply for GLOBAL world-wide Certification on the letters, in that order, E followed by O followed by M followed by A followed by 6 followed by 8.
people regardless of native language get to recognise the shape of those letters LITERALLY as if it was a piece of art.
even i am getting used to recognising the letters for "Taiwan".
l.
So... have the word "EOMA68" in the logo for both tiers, just have something that universally indicates "premium" or "certified" or "extra" or "plus" in the "EOMA68=Certified" logo, and have that something NOT be in the other logo. (A yellow or gold-colored award-ribbon symbol comes to mind, but that's just me.)
Luke, with all due respect, it's kind of obvious that you're not even trying here. This is super easy stuff. This is "grade school" easy. You should not be flunking art class over this!
...feck it. I've got to get ready for some errands, it's that day of the week. I'll draw up examples and show you, when I get back later. It'll be a few hours.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
So... have the word "EOMA68" in the logo for both tiers,
no tiers. too dangerous, too confusing.
just have something that universally indicates "premium" or "certified" or "extra" or "plus" in the "EOMA68=Certified" logo,
which means "optional" which means "confusion". no, sorry chris.
Luke, with all due respect, it's kind of obvious that you're not even trying here.
i'm trying *really hard* to get across that the risk when you have a hundred million people buying "stuff" it's a totally different ballgame.
if this was only maybe 50,000 people world-wide even in my wildest dreams, i simply would not be bothering. at all.
can you reassure me that out of a HUNDRED MILLION people there will be ZERO CONFUSION over what a different colour means?
...feck it. I've got to get ready for some errands, it's that day of the week. I'll draw up examples and show you, when I get back later. It'll be a few hours.
it's appreciated... but no, i do appreciate what you're saying, i do appreciate the distinction you're trying to make.... and unless you can provide GUARANTEED reassurance that there will be ZERO confusion in the eyes of hundreds of millions of users... no fear, no uncertainty, no doubt WHATSOEVER, the answer really does have to be no.
can you do that?
l.
Quickie from my phone, sorry.
I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but distinct logos should not be a challenge for the general population... even in the USA, where education is somewhat questionable in quality, or in African countries where education is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to be able to name e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different...
Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone with an iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a tremendous challenge just generally navigating through the world as-is, and we can therefore ignore that use case.
On Feb 15, 2018 11:26 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
So... have the word "EOMA68" in the logo for both tiers,
no tiers. too dangerous, too confusing.
just have something that universally indicates "premium" or "certified" or "extra"
or
"plus" in the "EOMA68=Certified" logo,
which means "optional" which means "confusion". no, sorry chris.
Luke, with all due respect, it's kind of obvious that you're not even trying here.
i'm trying *really hard* to get across that the risk when you have a hundred million people buying "stuff" it's a totally different ballgame.
if this was only maybe 50,000 people world-wide even in my wildest dreams, i simply would not be bothering. at all.
can you reassure me that out of a HUNDRED MILLION people there will be ZERO CONFUSION over what a different colour means?
...feck it. I've got to get ready for some errands, it's that day of the week. I'll draw up examples and show you, when I get back later. It'll
be a
few hours.
it's appreciated... but no, i do appreciate what you're saying, i do appreciate the distinction you're trying to make.... and unless you can provide GUARANTEED reassurance that there will be ZERO confusion in the eyes of hundreds of millions of users... no fear, no uncertainty, no doubt WHATSOEVER, the answer really does have to be no.
can you do that?
l.
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--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Quickie from my phone, sorry.
not a problem
I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but distinct logos should not be a challenge for the general population... even in the USA, where education is somewhat questionable in quality, or in African countries where education is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to be able to name e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different...
Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone with an iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a tremendous challenge just generally navigating through the world as-is, and we can therefore ignore that use case.
statistically unfortunately the number of 75 IQ outliers increases massively with sample size. if 100 million is not enough to satisfy you that we cannot take risks, increase it by an order of magnitude to a billion people.
sorry chris. really, we can't mess about with "options" here. it's one option or it's nothing at all. "any colour as long as it's black".
l.
Last from phone - got to go, will get back to you later... but this is still easily doable.
On Feb 15, 2018 11:43 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Quickie from my phone, sorry.
not a problem
I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but distinct logos should not be a challenge for the general population... even in the USA, where education is somewhat questionable in quality, or in African countries where education is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to
be
able to name e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different...
Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone with
an
iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a tremendous
challenge
just generally navigating through the world as-is, and we can therefore ignore that use case.
statistically unfortunately the number of 75 IQ outliers increases massively with sample size. if 100 million is not enough to satisfy you that we cannot take risks, increase it by an order of magnitude to a billion people.
sorry chris. really, we can't mess about with "options" here. it's one option or it's nothing at all. "any colour as long as it's black".
l.
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On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:47 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Last from phone - got to go, will get back to you later... but this is still easily doable.
give it a shot when you have time - let's work through it when you're back.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 02/15/2018 06:43 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but distinct logos should not be a challenge for the general population... even in the USA, where education is somewhat questionable in quality, or in African countries where education is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to be able to name e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different...
True. The problem (as I understand it) is when you have even reasonably intelligent people who can't understand the language. Few websites are set up to refuse to serve pages to people who don't speak the language of the site, and cannot, practically or impractically, be fully reliably so limited.
If EOMA succeeds, this will be a problem in non-English to English speaker as well as the currently discussed English to non-English speaker .
Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone with an iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a tremendous challenge just generally navigating through the world as-is, and we can therefore ignore that use case.
statistically unfortunately the number of 75 IQ outliers increases massively with sample size. if 100 million is not enough to satisfy you that we cannot take risks, increase it by an order of magnitude to a billion people.
I had been thinking about this, and the problem, unfortunately, is not even just about the 75 IQ outliers. There is also the problem of demonstrably intelligent people who seem to shut off their brains around computers. Maybe the infamous question about the "any key" is the low IQ people, but I'm pretty sure it isn't entirely so, and there's a whole lot of issues one step up that really do seem to trip up intelligent people.
sorry chris. really, we can't mess about with "options" here. it's one option or it's nothing at all. "any colour as long as it's black".
Here is why it's "any colour as long as it's black": Any logo MUST work not just in colour, but in black and white, or further, embossed, or engraved without any colour or lightness information remaining.
So far the only solution I see is to have a second term, *not* EOMA, to refer to hobbyist hacking projects that are theoretically compatible. The challenge, AIUI, is that such term *cannot* be used in the official documentation, and even using it on this list, which is (imperfect name or not) the official EOMA discussion list, is problematic.
This second term will be generated sooner or later. It's unfortunate that the need to keep them separate makes the bootstrap process a lot harder, but that seems to be the price of keeping EOMA pure enough to work for non-technical users. And, frankly, for the technical users who aren't in the mood to fuss with specifications at any given time.
For that matter, being weary of checking compatibility was a large part of the reason I bought my computer from Think Penguin.
Tor
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--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Jean Flamelle eaterjolly@gmail.com wrote:
nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE" or the Certification Mark "HDMI".
argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry. REALLY limited time right now.
Don't worry, I think I understand your point of view and I'm trying to put it in terms everyone else can follow. At least, I hope that's what I'm doing.
Those are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about.
If someone implements bad HDMI, then I assume they'll get sued if they even mention the word HDMI.
no it's more than that: the Guardian (Copyright Holders) of the HDMI Standard begin proceedings according to EXACTLY the same Trademark / Certification Mark / Copyright Laws that *I* am required to follow....
... and that begins with "scuse me but you're using the word HDMI without our explicit expressed consent".
it's *EXACTLY* the same thing as if you tried to claim that a product was "RYF Hardware-Endorsed".... without actually bothering to contact the FSF.
now, it so happens in the case of HDMI that you can simply put an HDMI connector on the product.... what you CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO is put the *WORD* "HDMI" anywhere on your product, because that has SPECIFIC implications that the seller of that product HAS GONE THROUGH THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS.
it's real simple: if you haven't gone through the Certification Process, *as defined by the Copyright Holder of the Certification Mark*, you are NOT PERMITTED to put the word "HDMI" on the product. or whatever the Copyright Holder says that you MUST do in order to receive the Certification Mark.
all of this is extremely well-known, by anyone that's done RYF Certification, HDMI Certification, BLE (Bluetooth Low-Energy) Certification and so on.
EOMA68 is absolutely no different.
Likewise if a hobbyist documents hacking an HDMI port to connect to a chip inside an adapter that converts it composite video, they'll run into either geo-restrictions or legal trouble, if that adapter fries the HDMI port.
In the US people can say whatever they want, but, elsewhere in the world, they'll say 18-pin audio-video port to save their butts. And, again, for good reason because of scam artists exploiting language barriers.
BLE they will say custom wifi.
exactly.
Luke has mentioned that if Intel makes a card the even looks slightly confuse-able for an EOMA68, without being certified then that would be infringement of the certification.
this is complex, but it's part of Trademark / Certification Mark Law. if even through "making something similar" you *still* cause confusion, to the detriment of the Certification Mark with which you are "competing", then yes, it doesn't actually matter if you don't actually put the name "EOMA68" on it, if it runs the risk of breaking something, or worst case killing someone due to a lithium battery fire, then under Trademark Law yes my understanding is that i would be permitted to drop a legal ton of bricks on the heads of the people who were being irresponsible.
there was a case involving Harrods and 'Arrods two decades ago.
I presume HDMI has probably tested this in various courts, because, if a someone implements bad HDMI, they can't just get away with it by calling it something else.
or... whatever.
So that's another way how certification law, could be stricter than copyright or trademark law. But, I find it hard to believe patents owned by HDMI wouldn't be involved in securing a case like that.
patents are totally different and in the specific example you gave.... yes quite probably. don't know. REALLY should not be replying to this right now.
Hi,
I did not want to enter this flame war, but I want to point out an obvious misunderstanding of the involved parties:
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 02:51:06PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
[...] now, it so happens in the case of HDMI that you can simply put an HDMI connector on the product.... what you CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO is put the *WORD* "HDMI" anywhere on your product, because that has SPECIFIC implications that the seller of that product HAS GONE THROUGH THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS.
Without a "product" and a "seller" there can be no infringement. A hobby project can exist and be publicly discussed and documented without being either a product or sold.
Over and out, Erik
On 16/02/18 11:13, Erik Auerswald wrote:
Hi,
I did not want to enter this flame war, but I want to point out an obvious misunderstanding of the involved parties:
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 02:51:06PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
[...] now, it so happens in the case of HDMI that you can simply put an HDMI connector on the product.... what you CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO is put the *WORD* "HDMI" anywhere on your product, because that has SPECIFIC implications that the seller of that product HAS GONE THROUGH THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS.
Without a "product" and a "seller" there can be no infringement. A hobby project can exist and be publicly discussed and documented without being either a product or sold.
Over and out, Erik
I didn't want to enter this either. But I'd like to clarify that if it's copyright we're talking about, then having a "product" or "seller" doesn't matter. It's simply about the making of copies, and unlicensed copies are forbidden by default regardless of how the copies are used. I don't like it and disagree with it's whole premise (see onpon4's earlier comment) but that's how it works.
On Fri, 16 Feb 2018, Pen-Yuan Hsing penyuanhsing@gmail.com wrote:
On 16/02/18 11:13, Erik Auerswald wrote:
Hi,
I did not want to enter this flame war, but I want to point out an obvious misunderstanding of the involved parties:
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 02:51:06PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
[...] now, it so happens in the case of HDMI that you can simply put an HDMI connector on the product.... what you CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO is put the *WORD* "HDMI" anywhere on your product, because that has SPECIFIC implications that the seller of that product HAS GONE THROUGH THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS.
Without a "product" and a "seller" there can be no infringement. A hobby project can exist and be publicly discussed and documented without being either a product or sold.
Over and out, Erik
I didn't want to enter this either. But I'd like to clarify that if it's copyright we're talking about,
I strongly suspect that it is _not_ copyright that we're talking about.
Until Luke or someone else points at an authoritative source to show otherwise, I would assume that he's just mixed up several of the barely related branches of law that people unhelpfully lump together under the "Intellectual Property" umbrella term.
Cheers, Phil.
FYI -- mostly to Luke -- I've got a two-tier logo design drawn out on paper, just haven't had a chance to scan it yet. I have a doc appointment today -- gave myself a friggin limp trying to empty out that room that got leaked in -- when I get back from the docs cussing me out, I'll try and see if I can get my scanner to work. It's unfortunately in that problem room, but it itself escaped water damage. I just have to run a power cord real quick like.
That should be about 4-4:30pm Eastern US time, with results hitting this list shortly thereafter... if I need more time, I'll let ya'll know.
Well, that didn't work out. Luke, can I please ask you to hold out till Sunday? I have company tomorrow helping with that room and I'll be busy all day with that.
I'm truly sorry to have to ask...
On 2/16/18, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Well, that didn't work out. Luke, can I please ask you to hold out till Sunday? I have company tomorrow helping with that room and I'll be busy all day with that.
I'm truly sorry to have to ask...
There's no rush.. Nothing said that a logo has to be decided immediately.
Luke and Ron are at conflict, because of fundamental ideals regarding serendipitous organization. Ron is skeptical of what good authority and one individual leading a troupe will bring the world. Luke is impassioned to bring about destined change as quickly and forcefully as possible. Ron is by no means an artist capable of inspiring serendipitous organization (no offense but the title is difficult to live up to), making the fellow very much a cynic.
Settling this one argument by desperately trying to live up to that title, isn't going to end their standing conflict. Only bringing a real artist who can rally real attention can undo that. I agree with you about the two-tier logo, but it would take something really inventive to communicate effectively the idea of a risky amateur project across language barriers. I said once and I'll say again, someone should invite Wenqing Yan to participate in the project.
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