Just one question,
I am assuming since there will be internal sd cards that your replacing one or both of the internal usbs?
or am I wrong?
By the way, I have a suggestion if you feel up to it,
Debian 9 seems to be very close to stable, if you feel like it, and anyone wants it, install it for them.
Whenever I order it, probably that will be what I will want. Using Debian 9 right now to be honest. It seems more stable then Debian 8 to me.
just a thought.
I wish you the best of luck, not that you will need it. :)
Hoping you don't get sick again also, I am glad you will be sticking the libre guidelines. Even if it is a pain
in the butt to be putting it lightly I am sure.
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 4:08 AM, zap zapper@openmailbox.org wrote:
Just one question,
sure.
I am assuming since there will be internal sd cards
yes.
that your replacing one or both of the internal usbs?
no.
or am I wrong?
removing the TSSOP-48 *NAND* IC, which leaves tracks free on layer 3 to route the (preferred) SDC2 interface through to the *internal* MicroSD card slot, which was *previously* wired to SDC3.
according to this: http://linux-sunxi.org/BROM
the boot order in the A20 eGON boot ROM is as follows:
* SDC0 * NAND * SDC2 * SPI * FEL (USB-boot)
note that MMC3 is *NOT* on that list. so, where previously the boot order was:
* SDC0 (external on EOMA68 connector) * NAND
it's now:
* SDC0 (external on EOMA68 connector) * SDC2 (internal on EOMA68-A20 Card)
both of which are removable, so i feel it's a hell of a lot better.
By the way, I have a suggestion if you feel up to it,
Debian 9 seems to be very close to stable, if you feel like it, and anyone wants it, install it for them.
it's already been explained in a previous update... wherre is it... ah ha! here you go:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/assembling-pcbs-at-...
so, first things, it wouldn't work (because it is necessary to ship with the sunxi 3.4.104+ kernel as it is the *only* linux kernel that supports the *FULL* set of hardware, and systemd is *NOT COMPATIBLE* with the 3.4 kernel) but secondly, i've done a heck of a lot of comprehensive testing of what i'll be providing... which includes some custom software compiles for things like the sunxi-vdpau drivers... and i'm not about to spend the time redoing all that. i simply don't have time... and people are entirely free to do it themselves anyway. just grab another MicroSD Card and prepare it.
Whenever I order it, probably that will be what I will want.
there will be a lot of people who will want the same thing. they will be either here on this list, or on debian-arm, or on the (planned) eoma68.com forums... etc. etc.
it's actually incredibly straightforward to get a Card set up with a new OS: https://wiki.debian.org/ArmHardFloatChroot
err... then... err... copy that to a MicroSD card and... err.. that's it. done.
this version looks a little more complicated: https://wiki.debian.org/EmDebian/CrossDebootstrap#QEMU.2Fdebootstrap_approac...
but is essentially the same thing.
oh look: there's the same instructions in here: http://linux-sunxi.org/Bootable_SD_card
section 8, "rootfs" - or section 8.2 use debootstrap.
the earlier sections describe setting up u-boot and linux kernel, but you should by now have the general impression that this is *extremely* well-documented. google "sunxi a20 microsd boot" and you'll find absolutely everything you need.
I wish you the best of luck, not that you will need it. :)
thanks.
Hoping you don't get sick again also,
i consulted an expert that i trust and they pointed out that the symptoms are consistent with the presence of parasites. i looked that up, and found that some of the foods i've been craving... kill parasites! yay! so i was subconsciously on the right track, but it's good to have positive confirmation as well as a TODO list - a list of foods to avoid as much as ones that will help.
I am glad you will be sticking the libre guidelines. Even if it is a pain in the butt to be putting it lightly I am sure.
*sigh* yeah it is... but there are plenty of people who don't... and make a ton of money (because of the compromises)... and cause exactly the kinds of problems we see that people complain about on a regular and constant basis.
only a new seed will yield a new crop.
l.
it's actually incredibly straightforward to get a Card set up with a new OS: https://wiki.debian.org/ArmHardFloatChroot
err... then... err... copy that to a MicroSD card and... err.. that's it. done.
It is true that there has been (heated) discussions about what kind of image should be shipped with the Eoma68-A20 cards and a lot has been explained here at this list and with the updates at crowdsupply. Still it seems kind of unfair to point Zap in the direction of how to set up a root filesystem as it is obviously not the hard part. The hard parts are the mentioned mainline kernel bug somewhere after 4.7-rc1 and to get all or most of the hardware working with a mainline kernel or at least a custom kernel based on mainline and to make everything work smooth with vanilla Debian. Some minor issues can be the correct setup of U-boot, sd-card filesystems, kernel config, ... although we can probably copy from the Eoma68-A20-Sd-Card provided by Luke.
kind regards Pablo
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Pablo pablo@parobalth.org wrote:
it's actually incredibly straightforward to get a Card set up with a new OS: https://wiki.debian.org/ArmHardFloatChroot
err... then... err... copy that to a MicroSD card and... err.. that's it. done.
It is true that there has been (heated) discussions about what kind of image should be shipped with the Eoma68-A20 cards and a lot has been explained here at this list and with the updates at crowdsupply. Still it seems kind of unfair to point Zap in the direction of how to set up a root filesystem as it is obviously not the hard part.
that's a misunderstanding and is out-of-context, so allow me to clarify: note the first part of what i said: I EXPECT THERE TO BE SEVERAL PEOPLE INTERESTED IN CREATING THEIR OWN CARDS.
that means that there will be a ton of people to ask "how do i create my own Card image".
there is even such documentation on the rhombus-tech wiki. kernel configs and links to kernel configs are included, as well as instructions on how to compile them.
it really isn't that hard.
The hard parts are the mentioned mainline kernel bug somewhere after 4.7-rc1 and to get all or most of the hardware working with a mainline kernel or at least a custom kernel based on mainline and to make everything work smooth with vanilla Debian.
true. and is why i'm not going to get directly involved.
Some minor issues can be the correct setup of U-boot, sd-card filesystems, kernel config, ... although we can probably copy from the Eoma68-A20-Sd-Card provided by Luke.
exactly. copy the first 128mb of any microsd card verbatim with dd then sort out the rootfs partition after that. i've done that at least 10 times when creating the various different images.
it's all been done, many many times.
l.
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 04:18:08PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Pablo pablo@parobalth.org wrote:
it's actually incredibly straightforward to get a Card set up with a new OS: https://wiki.debian.org/ArmHardFloatChroot
err... then... err... copy that to a MicroSD card and... err.. that's it. done.
It is true that there has been (heated) discussions about what kind of image should be shipped with the Eoma68-A20 cards and a lot has been explained here at this list and with the updates at crowdsupply. Still it seems kind of unfair to point Zap in the direction of how to set up a root filesystem as it is obviously not the hard part.
that's a misunderstanding and is out-of-context, so allow me to clarify: note the first part of what i said: I EXPECT THERE TO BE SEVERAL PEOPLE INTERESTED IN CREATING THEIR OWN CARDS.
that means that there will be a ton of people to ask "how do i create my own Card image".
Yes, I agree. Thank you for the clarification.
there is even such documentation on the rhombus-tech wiki. kernel configs and links to kernel configs are included, as well as instructions on how to compile them.
I am trying to prepare to build a mainline kernel on the development board and/or my Eoma68-A20 card. So far at rhombus-tech.net I found: http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner/a20/boot/ and http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner/a20/nand_mainline_boot/
At linux-sunxi.org I found this Howto for mainline kernel: http://linux-sunxi.org/Mainline_Kernel_Howto
Now can I simply run:
make ARCH=arm CROSS_COMPILE=arm-linux-gnueabihf- sunxi_defconfig
ARCH=arm CROSS_COMPILE=arm-linux-gnueabihf- make zImage dtbs modules to get a mainline kernel usable with the A20 card? Did I miss some important sources at rhombus-tech?
kind regards Pablo
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Pablo pablo@parobalth.org wrote:
I am trying to prepare to build a mainline kernel on the development board and/or my Eoma68-A20 card. So far at rhombus-tech.net I found: http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner/a20/boot/ and http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner/a20/nand_mainline_boot/
At linux-sunxi.org I found this Howto for mainline kernel: http://linux-sunxi.org/Mainline_Kernel_Howto
Now can I simply run:
make ARCH=arm CROSS_COMPILE=arm-linux-gnueabihf- sunxi_defconfig ARCH=arm CROSS_COMPILE=arm-linux-gnueabihf- make zImage dtbs modulesto get a mainline kernel usable with the A20 card?
yyep! personally i've been using cubietruck configs.
you found the allwinner/a20/boot configs so... yeah.
btw if you're going to be doing active early experimentation (and publishing it) do you want me to add you to the list of people to send a pre-production prototype to?
l.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 02:30:27PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
btw if you're going to be doing active early experimentation (and publishing it) do you want me to add you to the list of people to send a pre-production prototype to?
Thank you. I am looking forward to do early experimentation and I am willing to publish my efforts. I am already on the list for a pre-production prototype with the username "Parobalth". I try to reduce my dependence on google and recently changed my primary email address. Prior activity on this mailing list came from my "Parobalth" gmail address.
Pablo
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 9:36 PM, Pablo pablo@parobalth.org wrote:
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 02:30:27PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
btw if you're going to be doing active early experimentation (and publishing it) do you want me to add you to the list of people to send a pre-production prototype to?
Thank you. I am looking forward to do early experimentation and I am willing to publish my efforts.
awesome.
I am already on the list for a pre-production prototype with the username "Parobalth".
ah - i wondered who it was. excellent.
l.
On 04/16/2017 06:35 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 4:08 AM, zap zapper@openmailbox.org wrote:
Just one question,
sure.
I am assuming since there will be internal sd cards
yes.
that your replacing one or both of the internal usbs?
no.
or am I wrong?
removing the TSSOP-48 *NAND* IC, which leaves tracks free on layer 3 to route the (preferred) SDC2 interface through to the *internal* MicroSD card slot, which was *previously* wired to SDC3.
according to this: http://linux-sunxi.org/BROM
the boot order in the A20 eGON boot ROM is as follows:
- SDC0
- NAND
- SDC2
- SPI
- FEL (USB-boot)
note that MMC3 is *NOT* on that list. so, where previously the boot order was:
- SDC0 (external on EOMA68 connector)
- NAND
it's now:
- SDC0 (external on EOMA68 connector)
- SDC2 (internal on EOMA68-A20 Card)
both of which are removable, so i feel it's a hell of a lot better.
By the way, I have a suggestion if you feel up to it,
Debian 9 seems to be very close to stable, if you feel like it, and anyone wants it, install it for them.
it's already been explained in a previous update... wherre is it... ah ha! here you go:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/assembling-pcbs-at-...
so, first things, it wouldn't work (because it is necessary to ship with the sunxi 3.4.104+ kernel as it is the *only* linux kernel that supports the *FULL* set of hardware, and systemd is *NOT COMPATIBLE* with the 3.4 kernel) but secondly, i've done a heck of a lot of comprehensive testing of what i'll be providing... which includes some custom software compiles for things like the sunxi-vdpau drivers... and i'm not about to spend the time redoing all that. i simply don't have time... and people are entirely free to do it themselves anyway. just grab another MicroSD Card and prepare it.
Actually I forgot debian 9 used a kernel that a20 eoma68 doesn't support.
But I am guessing this could be an option for the rk3188 right?
Whenever I order it, probably that will be what I will want.
there will be a lot of people who will want the same thing. they will be either here on this list, or on debian-arm, or on the (planned) eoma68.com forums... etc. etc.
it's actually incredibly straightforward to get a Card set up with a new OS: https://wiki.debian.org/ArmHardFloatChroot
err... then... err... copy that to a MicroSD card and... err.. that's it. done.
this version looks a little more complicated: https://wiki.debian.org/EmDebian/CrossDebootstrap#QEMU.2Fdebootstrap_approac...
but is essentially the same thing.
oh look: there's the same instructions in here: http://linux-sunxi.org/Bootable_SD_card
section 8, "rootfs" - or section 8.2 use debootstrap.
the earlier sections describe setting up u-boot and linux kernel, but you should by now have the general impression that this is *extremely* well-documented. google "sunxi a20 microsd boot" and you'll find absolutely everything you need.
I wish you the best of luck, not that you will need it. :)
thanks.
Hoping you don't get sick again also,
i consulted an expert that i trust and they pointed out that the symptoms are consistent with the presence of parasites. i looked that up, and found that some of the foods i've been craving... kill parasites! yay! so i was subconsciously on the right track, but it's good to have positive confirmation as well as a TODO list - a list of foods to avoid as much as ones that will help.
I am glad you will be sticking the libre guidelines. Even if it is a pain in the butt to be putting it lightly I am sure.
*sigh* yeah it is... but there are plenty of people who don't... and make a ton of money (because of the compromises)... and cause exactly the kinds of problems we see that people complain about on a regular and constant basis.
only a new seed will yield a new crop.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
On 04/16/2017 12:58 PM, zap wrote:
On 04/16/2017 06:35 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 4:08 AM, zap zapper@openmailbox.org wrote:
Just one question,
sure.
I am assuming since there will be internal sd cards
yes.
that your replacing one or both of the internal usbs?
no.
or am I wrong?
removing the TSSOP-48 *NAND* IC, which leaves tracks free on layer 3 to route the (preferred) SDC2 interface through to the *internal* MicroSD card slot, which was *previously* wired to SDC3.
according to this: http://linux-sunxi.org/BROM
the boot order in the A20 eGON boot ROM is as follows:
- SDC0
- NAND
- SDC2
- SPI
- FEL (USB-boot)
note that MMC3 is *NOT* on that list. so, where previously the boot order was:
- SDC0 (external on EOMA68 connector)
- NAND
it's now:
- SDC0 (external on EOMA68 connector)
- SDC2 (internal on EOMA68-A20 Card)
both of which are removable, so i feel it's a hell of a lot better.
By the way, I have a suggestion if you feel up to it,
Debian 9 seems to be very close to stable, if you feel like it, and anyone wants it, install it for them.
it's already been explained in a previous update... wherre is it... ah ha! here you go:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/assembling-pcbs-at-...
so, first things, it wouldn't work (because it is necessary to ship with the sunxi 3.4.104+ kernel as it is the *only* linux kernel that supports the *FULL* set of hardware, and systemd is *NOT COMPATIBLE* with the 3.4 kernel) but secondly, i've done a heck of a lot of comprehensive testing of what i'll be providing... which includes some custom software compiles for things like the sunxi-vdpau drivers... and i'm not about to spend the time redoing all that. i simply don't have time... and people are entirely free to do it themselves anyway. just grab another MicroSD Card and prepare it.
Actually I forgot debian 9 used a kernel that a20 eoma68 doesn't support.
But I am guessing this could be an option for the rk3188 right?
yeah... sorry for even mentioning that, It does work disregard this change...
Whenever I order it, probably that will be what I will want.
there will be a lot of people who will want the same thing. they will be either here on this list, or on debian-arm, or on the (planned) eoma68.com forums... etc. etc.
it's actually incredibly straightforward to get a Card set up with a new OS: https://wiki.debian.org/ArmHardFloatChroot
err... then... err... copy that to a MicroSD card and... err.. that's it. done.
this version looks a little more complicated: https://wiki.debian.org/EmDebian/CrossDebootstrap#QEMU.2Fdebootstrap_approac...
but is essentially the same thing.
oh look: there's the same instructions in here: http://linux-sunxi.org/Bootable_SD_card
section 8, "rootfs" - or section 8.2 use debootstrap.
the earlier sections describe setting up u-boot and linux kernel, but you should by now have the general impression that this is *extremely* well-documented. google "sunxi a20 microsd boot" and you'll find absolutely everything you need.
I wish you the best of luck, not that you will need it. :)
thanks.
Hoping you don't get sick again also,
i consulted an expert that i trust and they pointed out that the symptoms are consistent with the presence of parasites. i looked that up, and found that some of the foods i've been craving... kill parasites! yay! so i was subconsciously on the right track, but it's good to have positive confirmation as well as a TODO list - a list of foods to avoid as much as ones that will help.
I am glad you will be sticking the libre guidelines. Even if it is a pain in the butt to be putting it lightly I am sure.
*sigh* yeah it is... but there are plenty of people who don't... and make a ton of money (because of the compromises)... and cause exactly the kinds of problems we see that people complain about on a regular and constant basis.
only a new seed will yield a new crop.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 5:58 PM, zap zapper@openmailbox.org wrote:
Actually I forgot debian 9 used a kernel that a20 eoma68 doesn't support.
... correct. there's quite a lot of work to be done, which is precisely why i've tried to keep this current campaign to a smaller (and where possible more technical) run, so that things can be got right *before* expanding.
But I am guessing this could be an option for the rk3188 right?
yyep
On 4/16/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
so, first things, it wouldn't work (because it is necessary to ship with the sunxi 3.4.104+ kernel as it is the *only* linux kernel that supports the *FULL* set of hardware, and systemd is *NOT COMPATIBLE*
Look what I found while investigating guixsd's development status with arm:
https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/
I couldn't find any indications of which versions of the linux kernel it's been tested on in their mailing lists.
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 10:30 AM, John Luke Gibson eaterjolly@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/16/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
so, first things, it wouldn't work (because it is necessary to ship with the sunxi 3.4.104+ kernel as it is the *only* linux kernel that supports the *FULL* set of hardware, and systemd is *NOT COMPATIBLE*
Look what I found while investigating guixsd's development status with arm:
fascinating. bizarre but fascinating. i seem to remember chris from thinkpenguin mentioned it to me (or someone did) as a potential OS to investigate: with four already on the list i remember thinking "ok that's probably enough for now".
still, might be worth investigating at some point. it's on the GSoC list so clearly has a following.
l.
Hello,
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 11:53 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 10:30 AM, John Luke Gibson eaterjolly@gmail.com wrote:
fascinating. bizarre but fascinating. i seem to remember chris from thinkpenguin mentioned it to me (or someone did) as a potential OS to investigate: with four already on the list i remember thinking "ok that's probably enough for now".
It may have been me, I remember digging in GuixSD at that same time as the eoma campaign was going.
still, might be worth investigating at some point. it's on the GSoC list so clearly has a following.
I'll still be interested in this distro, when eoma ships.
Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now update to kernels newer than 3.x ? On Apr 16, 2017 12:19 PM, "zap" zapper@openmailbox.org wrote:
Just one question,
I am assuming since there will be internal sd cards that your replacing one or both of the internal usbs?
or am I wrong?
By the way, I have a suggestion if you feel up to it,
Debian 9 seems to be very close to stable, if you feel like it, and anyone wants it, install it for them.
Whenever I order it, probably that will be what I will want. Using Debian 9 right now to be honest. It seems more stable then Debian 8 to me.
just a thought.
I wish you the best of luck, not that you will need it. :)
Hoping you don't get sick again also, I am glad you will be sticking the libre guidelines. Even if it is a pain
in the butt to be putting it lightly I am sure.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Bill Kontos vkontogpls@gmail.com wrote:
Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now update to kernels newer than 3.x ?
you can do anything you want to. however if you mean "are there any additional changes in the plans which are affected by NAND not being on-board" the answer is no.
l.
On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 10:05:25AM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Bill Kontos vkontogpls@gmail.com wrote:
Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now update to kernels newer than 3.x ?
you can do anything you want to. however if you mean "are there any additional changes in the plans which are affected by NAND not being on-board" the answer is no.
Understood. Luke, do you think the kernel bug could be related to NAND or do you guess another cause?
Pablo
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Pablo pablo@parobalth.org wrote:
On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 10:05:25AM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Bill Kontos vkontogpls@gmail.com wrote:
Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now update to kernels newer than 3.x ?
you can do anything you want to. however if you mean "are there any additional changes in the plans which are affected by NAND not being on-board" the answer is no.
Understood. Luke, do you think the kernel bug could be related to NAND or do you guess another cause?
power instability due to not enough space in the layers to keep a reasonably solid power plane.
l.
On 05/09/2017 04:32 AM, Bill Kontos wrote:
Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now update to kernels newer than 3.x ?
Just a thought but I believe top posting annoys Luke.
On Apr 16, 2017 12:19 PM, "zap" <zapper@openmailbox.org mailto:zapper@openmailbox.org> wrote:
Just one question, I am assuming since there will be internal sd cards that your replacing one or both of the internal usbs? or am I wrong? By the way, I have a suggestion if you feel up to it, Debian 9 seems to be very close to stable, if you feel like it, and anyone wants it, install it for them. Whenever I order it, probably that will be what I will want. Using Debian 9 right now to be honest. It seems more stable then Debian 8 to me. just a thought. I wish you the best of luck, not that you will need it. :) Hoping you don't get sick again also, I am glad you will be sticking the libre guidelines. Even if it is a pain in the butt to be putting it lightly I am sure. _______________________________________________ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk <mailto:arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook <http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook> Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk <mailto:arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk>
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
2017-05-09 12:55 GMT+02:00 zap zapper@openmailbox.org:
On 05/09/2017 04:32 AM, Bill Kontos wrote:
Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now update to kernels newer than 3.x ?
Just a thought but I believe top posting annoys Luke.
Bill didn't know how to post in-line. But we figured it out right Bill?
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 2:31 PM, mike.valk@gmail.com mike.valk@gmail.com wrote:
2017-05-09 12:55 GMT+02:00 zap zapper@openmailbox.org:
On 05/09/2017 04:32 AM, Bill Kontos wrote:
Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now update to kernels newer than 3.x ?
Just a thought but I believe top posting annoys Luke.
Bill didn't know how to post in-line. But we figured it out right Bill?
Indeed. I'm from the slack generation, not too used to mailing lists. I
didn't realize I was breaking the flow.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Bill Kontos vkontogpls@gmail.com wrote:
Indeed. I'm from the slack generation,
ah so you've read their terms and conditions, then? and seen these news articles:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart-war...
not too used to mailing lists. I didn't realize I was breaking the flow.
it's a different world. slack is designed to self-promote, to entrap and entice you by "encouraging" - forcing - interaction with glitz and glamour. likewise github: it's NOT about teamwork, it's about encouraging you to promote yourself above others, to compete for attention and glory... all the while getting information that can be sold about you whilst lying to you that they don't do anything of the sort.
so in short: mailing lists are group communication minus the glamour, entrapment and promotion, but also without hard rules on formatting. so people need to set their own rules, and that's how netiquette formed.
l.
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:34 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Bill Kontos vkontogpls@gmail.com wrote:
Indeed. I'm from the slack generation,
ah so you've read their terms and conditions, then? and seen these news articles:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the- great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert- mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage
not too used to mailing lists. I didn't realize I was breaking the flow.
Yup. It's still hilarious when I trap people into chatting with slackbot for half an hour before they realize it's a bot because I have programmed it very carefully exactly for this job and not for being informative. Anyway by slack I mean modern chat rooms in general. I use whatever everyone else that I need to work with knows how to use and there is nothing I can do about that. Unfortunately I'm working on a daily basis with people who can't figure out by themselves how to add a new power point slide, let alone understand what the crap is going on with the world. Most of them are smart but don't understand shit about technology. There is very little I can do about educating most of my surroundings, but I do try my best.
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:23 PM, Bill Kontos vkontogpls@gmail.com wrote:
Yup. It's still hilarious when I trap people into chatting with slackbot for half an hour before they realize it's a bot because I have programmed it very carefully exactly for this job and not for being informative.
i love that :)
understand what the crap is going on with the world. Most of them are smart but don't understand shit about technology. There is very little I can do about educating most of my surroundings, but I do try my best.
well, i admire and respect anyone who helps other people's lives to be better when it comes to technology.
l.
Damn. You know a list has been taken over by posting nazis when entire threads get hijacked just to tell anyone who cares to listen that someone top posted, and that breaks someone's flow. Well, here's the deal. My e-mail client is threaded, so I see the whole conversation in order. It just flows naturally that way. If I want to read the same messages over and over, all I have to do is open them as many times as I want. There is therefore no need to quote anything at all, as I have the entire context. I'm looking at you especially, hard-core bottom posters, who just have to outlook-style quote the entire two ore more messages and move their cursor all the way down to the bottom to write their little one-liner response.
I see lots of this kind of thing: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A: It messes up the flow of the conversation. Q: What's wrong with top posting? But instead, we should be asking ourselves how this looks. Please try not to read the entirety of the example below; just see how easy it will be to see my comments after the example: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi. How are you
---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, "Person A" person.a@email.ext rote:
Hi. How are you:
I'm doing well. And you?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:32 PM, "Person B" person.b@othermail.ext wrote:
On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, "Person A" person.a@email.ext rote:
Hi. How are you:
I'm doing well. And you?
I'm having a great day. I just found this awesome information you just have to see about libre RISC computing. Could it be applied to your current work? http://thisismysite.link/truly-free-computing-is-possible/
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original message ----- From: "Person A" person.a@email.ext Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Could this work?
On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:32 PM, "Person B"
person.b@othermail.ext wrote:
On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, "Person A" person.a@email.ext
rote:
Hi. How are you:
I'm doing well. And you?
I'm having a great day. I just found this awesome information you
just have to see about libre > RISC computing. Could it be applied to your current work?
This looks like something I came across a couple of days ago. I think it has some merit, but needs lots of time and money to make it work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:34 PM, "Person A" person.a@email.ext wrote:
On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:32 PM, "Person B"
person.b@othermail.ext wrote:
On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, "Person A" person.a@email.ext
rote:
Hi. How are you:
I'm doing well. And you?
I'm having a great day. I just found this awesome information you
just have to see about libre
RISC computing. Could it be applied to your current work? http://thisismysite.link/truly-free-computing-is-possible/
Yes. This looks quite promising. In fact, I've put lots of time and effort into this very idea. Thanks for the link.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:42 PM, "Person B" person.b@othermail.ext wrote:
On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:34 PM, "Person A" person.a@email.ext
wrote:
On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:32 PM, "Person B"
person.b@othermail.ext wrote:
On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, "Person A"
person.a@email.ext rote:
Hi. How are you:
I'm doing well. And you?
I'm having a great day. I just found this awesome information you
just have to see about libre
RISC computing. Could it be applied to your current work? http://thisismysite.link/truly-free-computing-is-possible/
Yes. This looks quite promising. In fact, I've put lots of time and
effort into this very idea. > Thanks for the link.
No problem. Glad to help.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Usually, if I feel the need to quote at all, I keep my quotes short and my attributions shorter: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is bottom posting bad?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Person A: # Why is bottom posting bad?
It forces readers to see the same message a hundred times or more before they can see responses. This makes it very hard to keep up with a thread, unless the reader intentionally comes in late. Threaded clients do all the hard work, so readers shouldn't have to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But most of the time, I try to retain context in other ways that don't require quoting: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is bottom posting bad?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bottom posting forces readers to see the same message a hundred times or more before they can see a response, making it hard to keep up with a thread unless they intentionally start reading late. Threaded clients do all the work, so readers shouldn't have to.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- This is what I do, and it would benefit readers everywhere. That said, I usually don't tell people how to post, and simply read the messages in context the best way I can. The problem is although I don't usually write my feelings about this rampant bottom posting down anywhere, I feel the need to speak out when threads start getting hijacked because someone posted something in a way that someone who wants to be the posting police didn't like.
I find this list to be quite informative, and I see a lot of good things coming in the hopefully not-too-distant future because of the ongoing work that is taking place here, as well as on various pages and articles linked here. However, post police hijacking threads to tell people they're posting wrong, when all they want to do is contribute to the discussion is counterproductive at best, has happened 2 to 3 times just on this list in the past 24 hours, has completely derailed a thread at least once in that time and is enough to make people who otherwise have good contributions want to leave. ~Kyle
2017-05-10 4:34 GMT+02:00 Kyle kyle@free2.ml:
Damn. You know a list has been taken over by posting nazis when entire threads get hijacked just to tell anyone who cares to listen that someone top posted, and that breaks someone's flow.
I'm not seeing any of that. The inline posting is simply the format chosen, for various reasons, on this list. Everyone from the "Outlook" world is unfamiliar with type of communication, that was including me.
But I find the inline posting quite refreshing. And doesn't require an email client capable of "story-lining". And helps with addressing multiple issues and responses in one thread.
<SNIP> TL;DR
Thanks for your point of view. But I wonder who's the posting n..i here.
~Kyle
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:55 AM, zap zapper@openmailbox.org wrote:
Just a thought but I believe top posting annoys Luke.
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting
"Some believe that "top-posting" is appropriate for interpersonal e-mail, but inline posting should always be applied to threaded discussions such as newsgroups."
blerk. ridiculous to be so pedantically politically correct.
@begin sing-song voice "some people believe" @end sing-song voice
it's quite simple: this is a list where topics are discussed in-depth. top-posting that breaks the context makes it REALLY hard for people to follow a complex or comprehensive discussion. making other people work harder at understanding and following isn't on.
if however there is like a throw-away comment (more a personal discussion or just a quip / joke) then i'm happy to tolerate top-posting.
generally i think people get it right, but if anyone feels that someone's made their lives awkward by breaking the context, PLEASE say so immediately.
l.
On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 02:10:25PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
it's quite simple: this is a list where topics are discussed in-depth. top-posting that breaks the context makes it REALLY hard for people to follow a complex or comprehensive discussion. making other people work harder at understanding and following isn't on.
if however there is like a throw-away comment (more a personal discussion or just a quip / joke) then i'm happy to tolerate top-posting.
generally i think people get it right, but if anyone feels that someone's made their lives awkward by breaking the context, PLEASE say so immediately.
I normally in-line post, because that seems to be the most effective way to communicate in a complex situation, but I've found one exception: When the new text is not really a reply, but a framing comment intended to alter the context in which a previous messgae should be read.
This is remarkably rare.
-- hendrik
arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
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