Hi,
It occurred to me that for blind people, who use a screen reader such as Speakup or Orca, a laptop housing without the screen or the touchpad would be quite convenient. And if this housing used the same battery as the regular laptop housing, it would last longer because there's no screen.
To the engineers on the list, how difficult would it be to modify the current laptop housing to remove the screen and touchpad? I suppose there are two ways to go about removing the touchpad: either it could just be replaced with empty space, or the keyboard could be moved to the front. In the latter case, how much smaller could the housing be made without removing anything inside (battery, space for a USB dongle, etc.)?
Matt
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 9:31 PM, Matt Campbell mattcampbell@pobox.com wrote:
Hi,
It occurred to me that for blind people, who use a screen reader such as Speakup or Orca, a laptop housing without the screen or the touchpad would be quite convenient.
and a lot thinner. hmmm...
And if this housing used the same battery as the regular laptop housing, it would last longer because there's no screen.
yeah it would. about twice as long.
To the engineers on the list, how difficult would it be to modify the current laptop housing to remove the screen and touchpad?
don't connect the cable, make a couple of fillers for the hinge holes and something to cover the touchpanel 3d-printed - that's about... 6-10 days of work.
I suppose there are two ways to go about removing the touchpad: either it could just be replaced with empty space,
if you wanted to just put a blanking plate across it you could knock something up (and glue it in place) in an hour or so. actually redoing the parts to *fit* a blanking plate - several days.
or the keyboard could be moved to the front.
that's a good 3-5 weeks of work.... no wait.... possibly a lot more than that. there are about eight separate physical parts that would need to be redesigned, and PCB2 might need redesigning as well.
In the latter case, how much smaller could the housing be made without removing anything inside (battery, space for a USB dongle, etc.)?
anything is possible if you have enough time. PCB3 is right at the front, in front of the battery: there's nowhere else to fit it on the right-hand side: there's no space to "stack" them one above the other, and the entire RHS that's not taken up by battery (160mm x 130mm x 6mm) is taken up with PCB3 (80mm x 35mm x 1.5mm with 6mm high components).
you could move it to the LHS but that would require a total redesign of PCB3 (2 months work)
you would also lose space in the compartment on the LHS.
answer: absolutely no space could be saved. at all.
now, if you could source a smaller battery that would be a different matter for the RHS, but PCB1 still is at the limit taking up the entire LHS with the 3x USB2 "dogleg", so now you'd need to redesign PCB1.
basically it's an adjustment of virtually every single part (PCBs and casework), which is several months work. it's a new product in other words.
much better to just leave everything as-is and just not have the screen. converting the EOMA68 RGB/TTL output to a standard HDMI output (with a TFP401) would be a neat addition, though. but that would be an alteration of PCB1 which would be... mm.... 3-4 weeks to first prototype.
l.
Thanks, Luke, for the information on how time consuming the modifications would be.
And I think Benson is right that it wouldn't be worth the trouble to remove the touchpad.
Matt
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Matt Campbell mattcampbell@pobox.com wrote:
It occurred to me that for blind people, who use a screen reader such as Speakup or Orca, a laptop housing without the screen or the touchpad would be quite convenient.
I don't know anyone in that situation personally, but it's not clear to me that the touchpad should go. Sure, using it for pointing input is unhelpful with no screen, but I would expect it could still be useful for gesture input, right?
Seems there's not much benefit from removing the touchpad, as it doesn't buy you any space savings, and it should have pretty small impact on battery life compared to the screen. (Especially if you can run it as input without powering the touchpad display -- I assume this is possible, but haven't really looked.) So I wonder if even a little usefulness for gesture input means it should stay.
Benson
All that is also assuming that the laptop won't be shared with someone able to use a display
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Benson Mitchell benson.mitchell+arm-netbook@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Matt Campbell mattcampbell@pobox.com wrote:
It occurred to me that for blind people, who use a screen reader such as Speakup or Orca, a laptop housing without the screen or the touchpad would be quite convenient.
I don't know anyone in that situation personally, but it's not clear to me that the touchpad should go. Sure, using it for pointing input is unhelpful with no screen, but I would expect it could still be useful for gesture input, right?
Seems there's not much benefit from removing the touchpad, as it doesn't buy you any space savings, and it should have pretty small impact on battery life compared to the screen. (Especially if you can run it as input without powering the touchpad display -- I assume this is possible, but haven't really looked.) So I wonder if even a little usefulness for gesture input means it should stay.
Benson
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On 9/12/2016 1:06 AM, Vincent Legoll wrote:
All that is also assuming that the laptop won't be shared with someone able to use a display
That's a valid point. And for organizations that purchase several laptops, such as schools providing laptops to their students or businesses providing them to employees, it's probably more economical to purchase just one model.
Your point brings to my mind a subject of some controversy within the blind community itself. If you all will pardon a digression, I think this will serve as yet another minor demonstration of the potential benefits of a modular computer over the typical monolithic approach:
For about three decades now, there have been PDAs designed specifically for blind people. These usually have braille keyboards, though some have QWERTY keyboards, and some models also have a refreshable braille display (using pins that move up and down as the braille dots). These devices have been especially useful for blind students in the classroom; in fact, they're often called "note-takers" because of this killer application.
As you might expect, these devices have been monolithic designs, and they have tended to fall behind mainstream technology. They're also expensive, as in $1000 or more. One semi-recent example with which I'm particularly familiar was the LevelStar Icon, first released in 2007 and discontinued around 2011. It was based on a ~500 MHz ARM processor (using the ARMv5 instruction set with no hardware floating point). Just two and a half years after the original release (judging by the hardware in the iPhone 3GS in mid-2009), that processor was thoroughly obsolete. But what could be done? The device wasn't upgradeable, and it was expensive to boot (around $1400 for the base unit), because of the relatively small target user base. It didn't help that the software platform was completely proprietary (albeit built on embedded Linux), and the web browser in particular didn't keep up. The company moved on to a new product based on Android (ultimately brought to market as the APH Braille Plus second generation), which was eventually discontinued in 2015.
In the past 8 years or so, in response to the cost of these specialized devices and their tendency to fall behind the mainstream, there has been a backlash against these devices in the blind community. Some people refer to these devices as "blind ghetto" products. For an explanation of the controversy (in the context of an opinion piece opposing the use of that phrase), see this blog post:
http://mosen.org/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-blind-ghetto-product/
Today, there are several braille displays (that category of device also typically includes a braille keyboard) which can pair with a PC or mobile device via Bluetooth. But that kind of setup requires two devices, one of which is defined largely by a screen that is useless to the target user. Yes, in theory, one can pair such a braille device to the phone that they probably already have in their pocket, and use that for note-taking, document preparation, etc. But Mr. Mosen pointed out in the blog post referenced above that iOS isn't really suitable as a replacement for the PC for typical office tasks. And I'm quite sure that Android is no better. Several months ago, I heard about an interesting product called the ElitaBraille (no official English-language web page that I'm aware of), which is basically an Atom-based PC that is designed to house a specific model of braille display/keyboard.
BUT, all of this assumes the typical monolithic approach to designing a portable computer, whatever one chooses to call it and whatever form factor it takes. What if one of the vendors in this space could be persuaded to design an EOMA68 computer housing with a braille keyboard and display, and a less expensive one with just a braille keyboard? Some of these vendors are still making and selling complete portable computers, still even calling them note-takers; one current example is the BrailleNote Touch (http://www.humanware.com/microsite/bntouch/index.php). So they might not be keen on the open, modular approach. But at least one prominent braille display vendor seems to have given up on the note-taker category of products.
Anyway, it seems to me that if sighted people can have their 7-inch tablets for content consumption, it's not totally unreasonable to want a computer housing that's optimized for the way blind people work. A housing with a braille keyboard would probably be optimal, but even just removing the screen from the 15.6" laptop housing, which is where this thread started, would be a modest improvement.
I suspect, though, that this wish is currently rather quixotic on my part. The reality is that, as I understand it, even the most accessible GNU/Linux desktop environment for a blind person (probably GNOME 3 on a machine with 3D acceleration, or MATE on one without) leaves much to be desired in comparison to Windows or Mac. One of my friends is a blind programmer who runs GNU/Linux as his primary desktop OS. He told me that while it works for him, he thinks it wouldn't be the best choice for most blind people wanting to use their computers for everyday tasks. I don't know what the specific problems are; I'll have to spend some time using GNOME or MATE with the Orca screen reader myself and find out. Anyway, I'm guessing most blind computer users wouldn't be interested in a computer that can only run GNU/Linux, even if the form factor, keyboard, and display (or lack thereof) are perfectly optimized for them. The appeal of a 15.6" laptop housing with the screen removed would probably be even less, unless the extended battery life turns out to be a killer feature and someone can put in the time to make the software adequately usable for common tasks.
Now, having written that rather long-winded message, that's probably all I'll say on this subject, unless I eventually put in the time to improve GNU/Linux desktop accessibility. Anyway, I hope this was of some interest to some people on this list.
Matt
P.S. In case anyone is wondering, I'm legally blind myself, but with enough sight to read a desktop display up close. I use a screen reader some of the time on my desktop and all the time on my smartphone. I think I would use a screenless laptop myself for some tasks, but not for my real work.
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Matt Campbell mattcampbell@pobox.com wrote:
Anyway, it seems to me that if sighted people can have their 7-inch tablets for content consumption, it's not totally unreasonable to want a computer housing that's optimized for the way blind people work.
actually at this point i'd be more interested in doing a simple housing for partially-sighted people than i would a 7in tablet. the reason is that just as you say, it's a specialist community that would appreciate it more.
the 7in tablet market, people are going to compare an EOMA68 7in tablet housing against... a mass-produced 7in tablet. they're going to see the extra cost and the extra thickness, and conclude "that's utterly rubbish!!!!".
whereas people in the partially-sighted market who are getting proprietary high-priced crud would be *really grateful* for something that is clearly a long-term cost-saving investment as opposed to a throw-away device. they'll go "huh, i can upgrade this later... oh, and i can transfer the *actual computer* to a bigger device which someone who *does* have good sight can help me out... or i can transfer the *actual computer* into a device with a huge LCD on it".
i'm referencing this discussion here on http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/partially_sighted_handheld/ but could i ask you a favour and to fill that in with a bit of the specs of things that people *actually want* - or if there is some community that you know of, reach out to them and ask them "what do you *really* want to have?"
Now, having written that rather long-winded message, that's probably all I'll say on this subject, unless I eventually put in the time to improve GNU/Linux desktop accessibility. Anyway, I hope this was of some interest to some people on this list.
*yes*.
l.
Hi Luke,
I'm glad you're interested, though at this point, we're clearly talking about a whole new product, not a simple adaptation of the 15.6" laptop housing.
If we're talking about a whole new product anyway, I've decided to maximize the potential portability by basing it on a braille keyboard rather than a QWERTY one. I've filled out the page you created, and it explains what I mean. Let me know if this is the kind of information you want, and what kind of dimensions you think would be feasible for something with the specs I've outlined.
Matt
On 9/12/2016 7:43 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Matt Campbell mattcampbell@pobox.com wrote:
Anyway, it seems to me that if sighted people can have their 7-inch tablets for content consumption, it's not totally unreasonable to want a computer housing that's optimized for the way blind people work.
actually at this point i'd be more interested in doing a simple housing for partially-sighted people than i would a 7in tablet. the reason is that just as you say, it's a specialist community that would appreciate it more.
the 7in tablet market, people are going to compare an EOMA68 7in tablet housing against... a mass-produced 7in tablet. they're going to see the extra cost and the extra thickness, and conclude "that's utterly rubbish!!!!".
whereas people in the partially-sighted market who are getting proprietary high-priced crud would be *really grateful* for something that is clearly a long-term cost-saving investment as opposed to a throw-away device. they'll go "huh, i can upgrade this later... oh, and i can transfer the *actual computer* to a bigger device which someone who *does* have good sight can help me out... or i can transfer the *actual computer* into a device with a huge LCD on it".
i'm referencing this discussion here on http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/partially_sighted_handheld/ but could i ask you a favour and to fill that in with a bit of the specs of things that people *actually want* - or if there is some community that you know of, reach out to them and ask them "what do you *really* want to have?"
Now, having written that rather long-winded message, that's probably all I'll say on this subject, unless I eventually put in the time to improve GNU/Linux desktop accessibility. Anyway, I hope this was of some interest to some people on this list.
*yes*.
l.
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--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 3:09 AM, Matt Campbell mattcampbell@pobox.com wrote:
Hi Luke,
I'm glad you're interested, though at this point, we're clearly talking about a whole new product, not a simple adaptation of the 15.6" laptop housing.
If we're talking about a whole new product anyway, I've decided to maximize the potential portability by basing it on a braille keyboard rather than a QWERTY one. I've filled out the page you created, and it explains what I mean. Let me know if this is the kind of information you want, and what kind of dimensions you think would be feasible for something with the specs I've outlined.
looks great matt, and really simple. two possible designs, one is compact but thick (CPU Card slot on *top* of battery) probably 15mm all-in and size 3.5in x 4.5in or 3in x 5in something like that, the other layout is CPU card side-by-side with battery, 4.5in x 6in or so and maybe 9mm thick.
l.
On 9/12/2016 10:05 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
looks great matt, and really simple. two possible designs, one is compact but thick (CPU Card slot on *top* of battery) probably 15mm all-in and size 3.5in x 4.5in or 3in x 5in something like that, the other layout is CPU card side-by-side with battery, 4.5in x 6in or so and maybe 9mm thick.
I think I'd go for the second design. Then maybe we could add a few niceties to the keyboard, such as arrow keys or a D-pad.
Matt
First of all, greetings. I've been subscribed to the list, and prior to that, spent some time reading list archives, once I found out about the EOMA68 project, which was around 7 or so days prior to the campaign ending. I love what I've read so far. I've backed the project, and am looking forward to getting hold of the hardware. :)
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 01:33:52AM AEST, Matt Campbell wrote:
I suspect, though, that this wish is currently rather quixotic on my part. The reality is that, as I understand it, even the most accessible GNU/Linux desktop environment for a blind person (probably GNOME 3 on a machine with 3D acceleration, or MATE on one without) leaves much to be desired in comparison to Windows or Mac. One of my friends is a blind programmer who runs GNU/Linux as his primary desktop OS. He told me that while it works for him, he thinks it wouldn't be the best choice for most blind people wanting to use their computers for everyday tasks. I don't know what the specific problems are; I'll have to spend some time using GNOME or MATE with the Orca screen reader myself and find out.
The core desktop shells for MATE and GNOME are accessible and usable with the Orca screen reader, with some rough edges that are fixable. The real rub here is the tools you need to get work done. Browsing the web is mostly painless, except for the inevitable sight that doesn't follow the ARIA spec properly, likely due to spec ambiguities. Email, both with console clients and GUI clients, well at least one, thunderbird, is doable to. LibreOffice is usable, at least for writing documents and working with spreadsheets, no idea on presentations, likely not usable at this point. Working with a calendar is another of those things that needs accessibility attention.
Luke
Hello,
Wouldn't that community better served by a "libre" (1) USB braille keyboard, that could be hooked to anything that has usb, and something like that as a display (I dont' know which technology those kind of displays need for cabling)
This would be cheaper / easier to produce / far more reaching that a specialized product ? And be reusable between different products, kept when upgrading the computer part, etc...
WDYT ?
(1) replace by whatever term is appropriate, (IANALanguageL)
Wouldn't that community better served by a "libre" (1) USB braille keyboard, that could be hooked to anything that has usb, and something like that as a display (I dont' know which technology those kind of displays need for cabling)
But the user would still need to carry around that keyboard plus a "standard" computer (I guess it could be a tablet).
On the flip side a "braille EOMA housing" with an EOMA A20 card inside could be turned into a "dumb USB braille keyboard" via the A20's OTG port.
Stefan
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 8:41 AM, Stefan Monnier monnier@iro.umontreal.ca wrote:
Wouldn't that community better served by a "libre" (1) USB braille keyboard, that could be hooked to anything that has usb, and something like that as a display (I dont' know which technology those kind of displays need for cabling)
But the user would still need to carry around that keyboard plus a "standard" computer (I guess it could be a tablet).
On the flip side a "braille EOMA housing" with an EOMA A20 card inside could be turned into a "dumb USB braille keyboard" via the A20's OTG port.
Seems like a good use of an EOMA68 passthrough card. If you're not using the chassis to house a computer card, put a passthrough card in that exposes the keyboard as a USB port.
Stefan
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Vincent Legoll