[Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at promoting lima?

Thu Oct 18 06:45:58 BST 2018

There are dozens of arm sbs right now that are crippled mainly due to Mali
graphics. A lot of them would be very useful for stuff that e.g. the rpi
doesn't do like cheap nas. Just saying.

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 08:32 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>
wrote:

> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:44 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:30:17 +0100
> > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > > ---
> > > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware:
> https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 2:58 PM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:43:29 +0100
> > > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > USD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to 100%
> > > > > completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a smaller
> > > > > geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU would be
> damn
> > > > > good).
> > > > >
> > > > > l.
> > > >
> > > > Wait a sec! Last year you said:
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 8 May 2017 16:43:07 +0100
> > > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:27 PM,  <ronwirring at safe-mail.net> wrote:
> > > > > > Best knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be
> > > > > > reverse engineered. What in regard of the latest mali gpus?
> > > > > > If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered?
> > > > >
> > > > >  yes.  about $150k would do it.   but the question is, really: what
> > > > > would happen if you did?  and, what else could you do with the same
> > > > > money?
> > > > >
> > > > >  well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own
> > > > > libre processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D
> graphics
> > > > > *without* paying anyone a cent.  any company tries to claim patent
> > > > > royalties, all that happens is a search is made on their "claims",
> > > > > for anything similar that has prior art.
> > > > >
> > > > >  if it's another company, guess what?  we notify that other company
> > > > > and watch the fireworks...
> > > > >
> > > > > l.
> > > >
> > > > 1M - 150k = 750K!!!
> > > > Therefore you're tripling your price estimate on us!
> > >
> > >  it depends on what you take into account.  if someone else pays the
> > > NREs to the foundry, i.e. a university agrees to collaborate and is
> > > offered access to a foundry for either free or at reduced rates,
> > > $250k-$500k comes off that amount, straight away.
> >
> > My statement was based on: 1M - (3 x 150K == 450K [for the HDL]) = 550K
> > for the silicon, and that's huge!
>
>  relatively speaking it's tiny.
>
> > What is the cost here?
>
>  it was a throwaway comment, david, written in about 30 seconds, with
> about 5 seconds thought.  the focus was more "a much higher bang per
> buck can be achieved with that kind of money" than "here is a detailed
> statement of work".
>
>  it would take me a *lot* more time to specifically answer that very
> general question without specific information.
>
> > Silicon as an
> > element is inexpensive and even 32nm foundries should have their HW paid
> > for by now. It's been what? 8 years since 32nm and the half node, 28nm
> > started? And the big buyers (AMD, Intel, Nvidia) were on it for 3+ years.
>
>  28nm mask charges - the lithographic stencils onto glass - for 28nm
> are i think USD $2m.  it's an exponential curve.  45nm is $1m.  it
> drops to around $250,000 for 180nm.
>
> > It's not like an OSH project can purchase a license for closed source
> > HW something-or-another libraries,
>
>  the industry term is "HDL" - i think it's just "hardware definition
> language" or something.
>
> > which I've read as being the main
> > expense from anandtech (No, I'm not in the field).
>
>  so that's why i spent several months tracking down libre equivalents,
> and/or tracking down people in open hardware willing to *create*
> libre-licensed HDL
>
> > >  if only wanting to reach a target of say producing the design files
> > > (HDL), that's a different target entirely as well, and if someone else
> > > can take over at that point (and make the actual money selling
> > > product), then that's one way to ensure that the goal's reached [but
> > > not guarantee financial benefit from it].
> >
> > I assumed at the time, you were talking HDL and with an FPGA for
> > hardware backing with basic OpenGL, OpenCL, and 2D driver. No video
> > encode/decode HW or Vulkan driver. Not mass produced, just a few
> > prototypes. At about the same speed as a good Intel GPU, say a high end
> > HD630 series. If you have a more concrete or different idea I'd be glad
> > to hear it.
> >
> > > so it was a throwaway comment written in about 30 seconds with no
> > > strict analysis done.
> >
> > Really? You sounded so serious! Contrary to popular belief, sound does
> > travel across the Internet, it's just that no body has managed to tie the
> > Internet into the speakers yet. ;-)
>
>  :)
>
> > > last time i collaborated with an associate to
> > > come up with a proper figure it was around USD $5m (for a client) and
> > > it took us around five days to put that together. however that
> > > particular deal excluded certain resources and had specific
> > > requirements.
> >
> > :(
> > I was aiming for 2M minimum. And that is BIG to me.
>
>  if aiming for 28nm (without additional investors) that would barely
> cover the production mask charges.  hence why i am interested to work
> with IIT Madras.
>
>  if requiring for example a modern DDR4 memory controller, over 50% of
> that budget would be taken up.  hence why i am interested in HyperRAM
> (upcoming JEDEC xSPI).
>
>  if not using a back-end team such as the people that IIT Madras have
> access to, that USD $2m would be entirely eaten by proprietary layout
> tool licensing from Mentor Graphics and the engineers who would need
> to be hired to do the work.  hence why i am interested in Magic,
> alliance2 / coriolis, and libresilicon, all of which are developing
> open ASIC layout tools.
>
>  there is a *lot* i simply have not had time to talk about, here, david.
>
> > > > Seriously, when I get BIG money (which will be a while),
> > >
> > >  cool
> >
> > Let me be frank, luke, I am under no delusions. No lottery. No gambling.
> > No get rich quick schemes. But it will take time, as in ~5 years.
> > Therefore, be excited about the OSH, not the money which may or may never
> > be there.
> >
> > I don't always agree with you, but what you write I do pay attention to.
> > And I have a terrible tendency of believing you. :)
>
>  :)  always never do that: i am first and foremost an ethical person,
> who goes, "that's not good, let's fix that", has absolutely *no idea*
> how to go about "fixing that", and persistently chips away (often
> randomly) regardless of complete lack of knowledge and expertise,
> until success.
>
>  it means that i really *really* need feedback and people to
> double-check and triple-check.
>
> > I had assumed that
> > some company would opensource or support the OSS Mali drivers,
> > eventually. Google has android running off of Mali, Samsung and LG have
> > Smart TVs running off of Mali, the list goes on...
> > But when you wrote about creating an OSH GPU yourself I realized that
> > is spite of every Mali customer, Google et. al. would not support
> > opensourcing anything if they could help it.
>
>  YA THINK???
>
> > Chromium's binary blob
> > problems are even further proof.
> > This became painfully clear when RISC-V came out. I expected *at least*
> > the cache to be OSH... :CRY:
> >
> > I decided that if I could, it was up to me to pull in the funds for OSH,
> > and "I think I can"(TM).
>
>  awesome.  well, as usual i have a parallel set of tracks being
> investigated, as part of a wider strategy of deals and collaborations
> with various people, just bear in mind that your help would be part of
> a much larger deal, ok?
>
> > > > I'm planning on calling you on this one
> > >
> > >  excellent.  well, when that happens, let's talk (on or off list), you
> > > let me know what you can raise and i'll put the time in - which will
> > > be several days not a few moments - to work out what can be done, and
> > > what side-deals will be needed, if necessary.
> > >
> > > l.
> > >
> >
> > I will tell you, but keep in mind that there are other OSH products to be
> > developed that I have my eyes on.
> >
> > Finally, I'm uncertain that I want to know, but what is a "side deal"?
>
>  ok, so let's say we make a chip.  it's successfully made, it's all
> done, and it works, right?
>
>  and then we go, "ok, who wanna buy?"
>
>  and... total absolute silence.
>
>  egg.
>
>  on.
>
>  face.
>
>  so the way to deal with that is: find **MULTIPLE** potential
> customers, take their requirements into account, and make damn sure
> that the SoC is capable of fulfilling THEIR needs times as many of
> such potential customers as can possibly be found.
>
>  and if even 30% of them come through and order 100,000, that's enough
> to actually get a serious order with a foundry.
>
>  now, some of those people might be willing to actually invest
> up-front, to get the SoC made.
>
>  that's what i mean by "side deals".  deals "on the side" that result
> in everybody succeeding in getting what they want.
>
> l.
>
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