[Arm-netbook] Early UART output vs. housing board discovery
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
lkcl at lkcl.net
Wed Jan 10 19:22:16 GMT 2018
On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Jonathan Neuschäfer
<j.neuschaefer at gmx.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 01:59:19PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>> so they would be perfectly and absolutely within their rights to take
>> the Card out, plug it into a.... testing station of some kind (even if
>> that's just a breakout board), plug in a MicroSD card with "UART debug
>> enabled" and off they go.
> Although I don't like this solution (what if the on-card firmware wants
> to print debug logs?), I have to acknowledge that it is a solution.
> (I would prefer that early debug output is available without (even
> temporarily) rendering a CPU card non-compliant.)
another solution is: the designer of the Card ensures that, through
the user-facing connectors of the Card, that early debug messages may
be accessed through one of the peripherals. in the case of the
EOMA68-A20 Card, that is possible with the insertion of a "MicroSD
Breakout Board", whereupon both JTAG and UART0 are accessible if you
boot with the correct pinmux settings.
this, again, does NOT require that the UART wires of EOMA68 be placed
into a state that results in total confusion over their use and
purpose... more on this below.
>> no it's even more basic / simpler than that. they don't have to do
>> that, they can just put the Card into a break-out PCMCIA holder
>> socket. or anything else.
> ... and enable early debug mode through unspecified means, right?
no, it's very clearly specified that there *is* no limit or
restriction. which is totally different from leaving things
>> > In short: Thank you for the clarification. Now I disagree with this
>> > decision in the spec. :-/
>> ok, so bear in mind that the UART wires double up as GPIO, and that
>> it is the HOUSING DESIGNER's right, under the EOMA68 specification, to
>> make the decision to allocate eiher one (or both) of the UART wires to
>> GPIO - as either Input or Output.
> This is AFAICS not a big problem under my suggested change.
> For reference, this is my suggested change:
> - CPU Cards may use the UART lines for debug purposes while they are not
> fully (enough) booted.
ok so that implies that the UART lines MAY be UART... they MIGHT also
be GPIO. please bear in mind: anything that involves "confusion" is
AUTOMATICALLY prohibited from being included in the EOMA68 Standard.
i appreciate that in this case you describe a procedure that would
remove doubt, but the procedure itself is very burdensome to
there is a story i told about the X25 Standard which illustrates how
these kinds of choices result in lost opportunities and/or total
confusion and thus destroy confidence in a standard.
> - When a CPU card has fully (enough) booted, it must use the UART pins
> in the function that's described in the EEPROM.
ok so the boot process you propose is:
* bring up the CPU (DDR3, PLLs)
* initialise EEPROM GPIO pins and configure them as I2C
* read an I2C EEPROM
* decode it
* work out if it's SAFE to write to UART
* THEN write debug / print messages on the UART pins
... can you see how that's not "early" at all?
> For example, UART
> connected to a Bluetooth module, GPIO connected to whatever, etc.
> - If a housing needs to protect its components from debug traffic, it
> must provide (and describe in the EEPROM) a mechanism for the CPU card
> to signal that it has booted far enough to use the UART pins for the
> function intended by the housing. This can be done through a I2C
> register poke, toggling a (different) GPIO line, etc.
this is _way_ too complicated, and also not clear.
> - I think it should be valid for a CPU card to follow the current model
> and keep the UART pins tri-stated until it's fully booted. A housing
> that wants to capture early debug traffic can generate a well-defined
> idle signal on the TX line with a pull-up.
this is even more complicated... and also unnecessary when the person
doing the debugging may either:
* in-situ use multiplexing of user-facing connectors (A20 MicroSD /
* take the Card out of the Housing and test it in a home-made or
laboratory-owned test Housing.
> This is a debug facility. Not all CPU cards have to use it, but all
> housings must accept it.
that places a huge technical burden and complexity on Housing
Designers *and* Card Designers, where no such complexity or burdensome
requirements exist at the moment.
> Thus it is just as (non-)optional as USB, with the difference that the
> CPU card decides whether it prints early debug messages, and the Housing
> decides whether it connects the USB pins to any USB devices or
the purpose of requiring the "non-optionality" is to ensure that
there is absolutely no way that a future Card or future Housing will
be incompatible with an older Card or an older Housing, no matter how
much faster the peripherals on either the Card(s) or the Housing(s)
SD/MMC itself is a perfect example, as not only is the speed
auto-negotiated based on how many physical wires "happen to connect" -
1 2 or 4 - but there is also *automatic* host-to-card negotiation of
speed capabilities *built into the protocol*. likewise SATA and USB,
and also the ADSL / SDSL broadband protocol, and also PCIe. all of
these protocols do "negotiation", right down to the VERY slowest,
oldest possible equipment that could possibly be plugged in.
all of these protocols are incredibly simple as far as EOMA68 is
concerned: they "take care of themselves". UART, SPI, I2C, RGB/TTL
and the three degenerate cases GPIO, PWM and EINT on the other hand,
cannot "self-negotiate". that's what the I2C EEPROM is for: to
describe and specify those functions totally unambiguously so that the
Card is GUARANTEED - as long as it follows the EOMA68 specification -
NOT to do any damage to itself or to the Housing.
the other consideration i have is that the standard has to be simple,
and implementation of Housings and Cards has to be very
straightforward. what you are proposing has two possible alternatives
(actually a third is as you suggested: open up the Card's case and
start re-wiring things and hand-soldering on extra components or
connections) where all of the alternatives achieve exactly the same
thing.... *without *requiring that the EOMA68 Standard have additional
complexity added to it.
> "Fully (enough) booted" in the above doesn't just mean the CPU has left
> the bootloader. It also has to have read the I2C EEPROM, which might
> require quite a bit of work in the kernel (initializing the I2C
> controller, at least). Things can go wrong before the CPU card has
> booted far enough before it can read and interpret the I2C EEPROM, which
> is my whole motivation.
exactly. and that's precisely why additional complexity should *not*
be added to the negotiation phase.
>> .... so what do you think would happen, in this case, if someone
>> plugged in a Card where it was FORCIBLY REQUIRED that UART *ABSOLUTELY
>> MUST* transmit "early boot messages" on those two wires?
> Required by which part?
sorry, the use of the word "part" is not clear. part of the standard?
part of the Card? part of the Housing? part of the proposed
modification to the standard?
anyway, that was written when i believed that you were proposing that
Cards are forced to transmit early boot messages over UART.
> - Housings shouldn't require to see any debug messages from CPU cards,
> that's just silly
the point is: if the wires are to be forced to transmit early debug
messages, then in ABSOLUTELY NO WAY can they also be allowed to change
over to GPIO. there must be ABSOLUTELY NO POSSIBLE RISK that their
use as UART could conceivably cause damage to either the CPU or to the
and if there is a current fight between a GPIO that is tied
permanently to VREFTTL on the Housing and the forced requirement to
transmit UART early debug messages tries to pull it high, we have a
i appreciate that you have come up with a solution to this, involving
a complex process of ascertaining via the EEPROM whether the pins are
GPIO or UART, but it is complexity where *none* exists at the moment,
and there are two easy alternatives that place absolutely no burden
whatsoever on the Technical EndUser.
>> i trust that you can appreciate that it would overwhelm both me and
>> you and everyone on this list to have three ongoing *simultaneous*
>> separate and distinct highly-technical logical reasoning discussions,
cool, whew :) this _is_ really important, to make absolutely sure
that the standard will be useful and useable for at least the next
More information about the arm-netbook