[Arm-netbook] systemd nonsense ad-infinitum

[Philip Hands]

zap <calmstorm at posteo.de> writes:

> Sorry but I have to challenge you on this, it isn't right for systemd to
> be the only init that can be used on debian by default.
>> There is no "forcing" or "requiring" involved, and people spouting this
>> bullshit is getting _really_ old now.
>>
>> If any such radical change had actually been enacted then:
>>
>>   a) well, we'd be in a different universe, where Debian was run by some
>>   sort of overlord who was prone to making snap decisions on a whim.
>>
>>   b) there would have been a mass bug filing for all these packages that
>>   did not require systemd, to somehow add that requirement.
>>
>>   c) there would have then been a vast wave of new package uploads with
>>   the new packages, encumbered with those requirements.
>>
>> NONE OF THIS HAPPENED.
>
> Incorrect sorry but I am not sure where you get your info from.

I'm not sure what you're expecting me to say.

I pay attention to the uploads.

I've been a Debian Developer for over 2 decades.

I was there since before all this started on the mailing lists.

I'm vaguely aware of the extent to which things depend on things.

Actually, let's try a very rough estimate on "stretch" (the new release):

  for p in systemd libsystemd0 libselinux1 libc6 ; \
    do apt-cache rdepends \
         --no-suggests --no-conflicts --no-breaks --no-replaces $p \
      | grep '^ ' | sort -u | wc -l ; \
    done
34
144
133
19816

Note that libselinux1 (which is pretty much equivalent to libsystemd0 in
its purpose) is almost as widely depended upon as libsystemd0, and that
they are both two orders of magnitude less depended upon than libc6.

_That_ is why I reacted badly to your "forced to require" assertion.

I'll admit that there are recursive dependencies that spread that net
quite a lot wider, but also those numbers include the likes of sogo
where the dependency is:

  Depends: libc6 (>= 2.14), libcurl3-gnutls (>= 7.16.2), libgcc1 (>=
  1:3.0), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.14.0), libgnustep-base1.24 (>= 1.24.7),
  libgnutls30 (>= 3.5.0), liblasso3 (>= 2.5.0), libmemcached11, libobjc4
  (>= 4.6), libsbjson2.3, libsope1 (>= 3.2.6), init-system-helpers (>=
  1.18~), tmpreaper | systemd, sogo-common (= 3.2.6-2), adduser, zip,
  lsb-base (>= 3.0-6)

so here systemd is depended upon only as an alternative to tmpreaper.

If you want better numbers, feel free to work them out yourself, but I'd
hope that you'll manage to understand from this that there has not been
a policy change to "force" packages to "require" (or as we'd call it
"depend") upon systemd, or even libsystemd0.

Oh, and not that it matters, as I wasn't there when the Debian Technical
Committee made its decision to choose systemd as the default, but I
would have made the same decision if I had been on the committee then,
and these days I am:

  https://www.debian.org/intro/organization#tech-ctte

so, if that doesn't qualify me to comment on happenings in Debian in
your eyes, I'm not quite sure what would.

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
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