[Arm-netbook] Slowly but surely...

[lkcl luke]

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Gordan Bobic <gordan at bobich.net> wrote:
> On 07/09/2012 02:41 PM, lkcl luke wrote:
>
> [openmoko being wrong example]
>
>> in this case, all that happens is we move to a different CPU.
>
> In which case you still need a new PCB in the module.

 yes.

> Do we have a working PCB for the A10 yet?

 one is 75% completed.  the reason why it's only 75% complete is
because rather than use the EVB layout given to us by wits-tech, the
team *copied* it - verbatim - by printing each layer out (!) then
tracing over them with the tools that they are familiar with.  rather
than learning the tools that the PCB layout came in, or running a
conversion tool.

> How long did that take so far?

 to find a team that is prepared to do the work *without* any money
exchanging hands either way?  that takes a long time.  to actually do
the work (by using the EVB schematics given to us)? about 5-7 working
days.

 if however you or anyone else could have come up with about $USD
10,000 then we could have found one of those teams that was capable of
completing the work within about 5-7 working days, given them the
money about one year ago and the boards would have been completed
about one year ago.

 ... but we're deploying a different kind of investment strategy from
that.  it's about doing deals, where everyone in the chain benefits in
the long-term from their contributions to the project.

 if you've read "millionaire mind" you will recognise this strategy.
any company or individual that wants cash up-front payments rather
than being prepared to work on a deal-basis or a percentage-basis we
have eliminated *instantly* from further discussions.

 by following this approach it means we have not needed any investors,
nor any investment, of any kind.


> I've been on this list for about a year now. That's a long time.

 yes.  it's been going for a lot longer than that. let's go through
it, then - review what's happened.

 * we approached a small engineering company in china, about 20 months
ago, and explained the deal: if they do not ask us for money on
hardware design, then we will not ask them for money on software
engineering.  if they make the CPU Card, we will put it to our
clients, and they will then make a lot of money.

 * we were originally going to use the AML-8726-M.  however, about 18
months ago, the Allwinner A10 came out.  the small engineering company
was using the AML-8726-M (800mhz) for all its clients.

* given that their clients' products were all tablets, and given that
A10 CPU tablets were eating the market, all their clients went bust.
as all their clients went bust, so did the small engineering company.
we amicably said goodbye to engineering team no 1.

 * we then got onto the mailing lists, explained the situation, and
bari agreed to help (in return for, again, a
no-money-exchanged-either-way deal, which he didn't sign).  bari
actually did an enormous amount of advocacy work, and also helped find
quotes for connectors, which helped get the costs down.

 * also, wits-tech provided the EVB schematics.  i modified these in
january to be EOMA-68 compliant but the PADS (PCB layout) was a bit
beyond me, so bari promised to do it, instead.

 * coming up to a deadline back in april or so, bari refused to work
to a deadline.  this made several people extremely angry, as everyone
- you, me, everyone on this list, the factory _and_ our clients - had
been relying on him to complete the PCB layout.  so: goodbye
engineering team no 2.

 * days before my associates were due to go out to China to meet with
several clients, we were forced to find another PCB engineering
company.

 * this third PCB engineering company agreed to a deal: again, no
money exchanged either way.  they love the project, have seen the
number of preorders and are really looking forward to supplying
everyone with CPU Cards.

 so that's where we are.  we've had to alter accordingly.

also there is the possibility of a 2nd CPU Card, using the iMX53.  a
provisional cost has been worked out.  if the client goes for it, then
that CPU Card will be available as well.  the reason why the client
picked the iMX53 as opposed to the A10 is because freescale have a
guaranteed timeline and lifecycle for the iMX53, as well as having
Industrial Temperature Grade processors (at reduced clock speed).


>> that's always been the strategy.  remember: i'm talking to several SoC
>> companies in order to plan the roadmap ahead for the next 4-5 years,
>> and the possibility has just come up to work even beyond that
>> timescale.
>
> Which would be a lot more meaningful if there was actually a tangible
> product to plan this future for.

 yes.  the client we're talking to wishes to adapt two pre-existing
(x86) laptops, and also for us to come up with three new products for
them.  as they have a quite limited selection of products presently
available this is not too hard.

 they will fund each and every one of those 5 products.

 however it is, obviously, conditional on having a CPU Card available
in prototype form.  the speed of that CPU Card is irrelevant: it just
has to work.

> At this point, given the rate of
> progress so far, I am not even 100% convinced there will even be an EOMA
> card with an A10 in it.

 patience.  there is a lot going on behind the scenes, and it is my
task to coordinate everything to make sure that, even with setbacks,
the project moves forward.

>>   we know that the first CPU Card is going to be the toughest.  getting
>> parts.  finding suppliers.  getting I/O Boards made.  convincing
>> clients to use it.  getting the software in place.  modifying the
>> linux kernel to support EOMA.  it all has to happen at once.
>
> And it is increasingly looking like the ship that the A10 EOMA needed to
> be on has sailed.

 there are plenty more CPUs, gordan.  so i repeat: we're talking to
two other SoC vendors; allwinner themselves should have their new CPU
coming out soon, etc. etc.  again, also, i repeat: even if that's the
case it doesn't matter: the A10 CPU Card will help get the rest of the
strategy into place.

> The optimist in me hopes that proverbial ship may
> still be in swimming distance, but the realist in me thinks there's a
> snowflake's chance in hell of making it.

 a) see sentence above.  the overall strategy is specifically *not*
dependent on one *specific* processor.  that is the whole point.

 b) i do not share such a viewpoint / mindset.  the goal *will*
happen, therefore the goal *will* happen.  regardless of what happens,
the goal *will* be achieved.  i have not been working on this project
for over 2 years just to decide i'm going to quit, now.

> As you say - it's a lot of work to do.

 yes.  and i will continue putting in as much effort as is required to
complete the goal.  it's that simple.  i'm not asking you to put that
work, time or energy in.  that's my task.  it's very simple, direct,
and pathological.  nothing stands in the way.  not even the A10
becoming irrelevant will stand in the way.

>>   once even _one_ board, _one_ CPU card, _one_ product is done, any
>> others are easier.  why? because the design is modular. why does that
>> matter? because you do *not* need a total redesign of *any* products,
>> just to put in a new CPU Card.  why? because the software comes on the
>> CPU Card.
>
> Sure. To chance the SoC you "only" have to change the EOMA card PCB and
> the kernel. That is again a fair amount of work.

 yes.

> These new blade servers have the same advantage in the server context as
> the CPU cards are pluggable.

 that's fantastic.  i wish them every success in their chosen niche
market, riding off the back of supply of product to the U.S. Military.

> The main difference is that if you ask very nicely and get in with the
> right crowd, you can plausibly get your hands on one of those server
> chassies - unlike with EOMA.

 these calxeda-based servers are not going to be sold in quantities of
a million per week, gordan.

>>   so even if the EOMA-68 A10 CPU card is late as hell, it *doesn't
>> matter*.  why? because it will be a critical prototype component
>> against which all the *other* pieces of the strategy can be made
>> concrete.
>
> Except if you chance something as critical as the SoC, you'll have to
> redesign the PCB anyway to make all the lines go to the right place.

 i don't understand what you mean here.  perhaps it's because you've
written "chance" not "change".  but even correcting that word, you've
misunderstood.

 I/O Boards do not need to change.  casework (which is over 10x more
expensive than PCBs) does not need to change.  by merely taking a new
SoC's EVB schematics direct from the SoC manufacturer, it's possible
to cut/paste that into a new EOMA-68 CPU Card within a matter of weeks
[if you use a competent team].

 so the whole point of the EOMA strategy is that a mass-volume
supplier of product, who will have had to spend about $500,000 on hard
tooling for the casework of a laptop, which they will be supplying in
volumes of up to 1 million units *per week*, does *not* have to go
spending another $500,000 on tooling, does not have to spend any
further funds *other* than to simply get a new CPU Card made, and the
product is entirely revitalised (or its cost reduced).

 apologies if this isn't clear enough, gordan.

>>   so do you see, alexey, how completely different this is from the
>> *one* openmoko product?  do you see how comparing *one* specific
>> (failed) product to an entire product design *strategy*, of which the
>> A10 EOMA-68 CPU Card is just one small part, is not comparing
>> like-with-like?
>
> Can't speak for Alexey, but to me it looks like you are arguing the
> wrong point. You are arguing that you can reuse the machine running
> based on the EOMA, not the EOMA module design itself.

 i'm not arguing: as a courtesy to you i'm explaining the strategy
that we are *going* to go ahead with, which the client, a PRC
State-Sponsored company with a turnover of $16 billion dollar a year,
has accepted (*) and is very excited about, because it solves a large
number of problems that they face.

 that strategy involves using whatever CPU Card is available, and it
involves moving forward as-and-when new CPU Cards become available.
i'm going to leave it at that, because i believe it's quite clear, and
i'm having to repeat things, which i don't like doing - it takes up
too much time.

 l.

(*) took twooo yeaaarrrrs for them to get it, but they got it, and love it.