From lkcl at lkcl.net  Wed Jul  3 09:03:44 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:03:44 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [eoma68 update] report back from factory on HDMI
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwehYz9wzHQ4Knz28p8=p3f0hhgOx+G_-uk_fyB3+e=FQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwehYz9wzHQ4Knz28p8=p3f0hhgOx+G_-uk_fyB3+e=FQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>
Date: Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 8:16 AM
Subject: [eoma68 update] report back from factory on HDMI

Mike's staff began the PCB assembly of the run of 100, and had to stop
at 36.  20 were ok: 16 of them, the HDMI connector refused to fit.
The reason: the CNC machining on the edge of the PCB has not been done
accurately enough: it's simply too ragged.  The staff did some
experimentation, cleaning up some of the edges in the cut-out with an
xacto-knife: this did the trick, even though it is shaving something
like 0.01mm off the ragged edge of the PCB.

The left and right edges do not matter too much, however where the
HDMI connector comes in close, it definitely does.  Mike is going to
talk to the PCB factory to see if there is anything that they can do
in future, however with 1,000 PCBs already manufactured, the safest
thing to do is probably to *hand-trim* that PCB edge, removing the
burrs, on all 1,000 PCBs.

Again, to reiterate, because I am still seeing evidence of
"complaints" out there, from people who believe this should be easy:
these are absolutely ridiculously tiny components and tolerances, and
the budget on which it's being done is equally as frugal.  0.05mm on
the edge of a PCB.  0.2 mm wide pins, with 0.2mm clearance between
them.  A "normal" Single-Board Computer product from any other
well-funded Corporation would use large (Type A) HDMI, top-mounted,
with plenty of tolerances and no need for the PCB edge to be
accurately milled.

Again, to reiterate: we do not know what will need to be solved next.
Therefore, a production date simply cannot be provided, and that
really is the end of the matter.  Or, the answer is: the production
date is "the production time plus the unknown time to solve unknown
and unknowable future issues".

Mike is sending me the 20 "good" PCBs so that I can test them here, to
see if they are okay.  The staff will continue with the rest by
shaving the burrs on the PCB on every single one of the remaining 80
with an xacto-knife, before putting them through the production line.
 It is looking like I will need to do the testing of all 100 of this
preliminary production run, here, at my home, in Taiwan.
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From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me  Wed Jul  3 09:23:06 2019
From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:23:06 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [eoma68 update] report back from factory on
 HDMI
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwehYz9wzHQ4Knz28p8=p3f0hhgOx+G_-uk_fyB3+e=FQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43709794-7302-6151-b0b6-eb30fa7d94f4@aross.me>

arr no, poor you and poor them... These things are never easy... and i
thought it was hard enough manually putting audio power amplifier boards
and bits into a box, with a compact fit... I make lots of little
mistakes. lots of using a knife to trim a hole... ;)

My thanks to the staff, mike and you.


From calmstorm at posteo.de  Wed Jul  3 09:42:18 2019
From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 04:42:18 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [eoma68 update] report back from factory on
 HDMI
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwehYz9wzHQ4Knz28p8=p3f0hhgOx+G_-uk_fyB3+e=FQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <165d17e8-6048-68e6-fc05-b3db71935b04@posteo.de>



On 07/03/2019 04:03 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>
> Date: Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 8:16 AM
> Subject: [eoma68 update] report back from factory on HDMI
>
> Mike's staff began the PCB assembly of the run of 100, and had to stop
> at 36.  20 were ok: 16 of them, the HDMI connector refused to fit.
> The reason: the CNC machining on the edge of the PCB has not been done
> accurately enough: it's simply too ragged.  The staff did some
> experimentation, cleaning up some of the edges in the cut-out with an
> xacto-knife: this did the trick, even though it is shaving something
> like 0.01mm off the ragged edge of the PCB.
>
> The left and right edges do not matter too much, however where the
> HDMI connector comes in close, it definitely does.  Mike is going to
> talk to the PCB factory to see if there is anything that they can do
> in future, however with 1,000 PCBs already manufactured, the safest
> thing to do is probably to *hand-trim* that PCB edge, removing the
> burrs, on all 1,000 PCBs.
>
> Again, to reiterate, because I am still seeing evidence of
> "complaints" out there, from people who believe this should be easy:
> these are absolutely ridiculously tiny components and tolerances, and
> the budget on which it's being done is equally as frugal.  0.05mm on
> the edge of a PCB.  0.2 mm wide pins, with 0.2mm clearance between
> them.  A "normal" Single-Board Computer product from any other
> well-funded Corporation would use large (Type A) HDMI, top-mounted,
> with plenty of tolerances and no need for the PCB edge to be
> accurately milled.
>
> Again, to reiterate: we do not know what will need to be solved next.
> Therefore, a production date simply cannot be provided, and that
> really is the end of the matter.  Or, the answer is: the production
> date is "the production time plus the unknown time to solve unknown
> and unknowable future issues".
>
> Mike is sending me the 20 "good" PCBs so that I can test them here, to
> see if they are okay.  The staff will continue with the rest by
> shaving the burrs on the PCB on every single one of the remaining 80
> with an xacto-knife, before putting them through the production line.
>   It is looking like I will need to do the testing of all 100 of this
> preliminary production run, here, at my home, in Taiwan.
It does sound complicated, I wish you the best on this.  My hope is that 
you will find the correct balance and succeed Luke.

When it ships successfully, let us all know with some big bold letters 
email title please. :)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk


From calmstorm at posteo.de  Wed Jul  3 09:43:49 2019
From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 04:43:49 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [eoma68 update] report back from factory on
 HDMI
In-Reply-To: <165d17e8-6048-68e6-fc05-b3db71935b04@posteo.de>
References: <CAPweEDwehYz9wzHQ4Knz28p8=p3f0hhgOx+G_-uk_fyB3+e=FQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<165d17e8-6048-68e6-fc05-b3db71935b04@posteo.de>
Message-ID: <c570cd85-dda9-0587-d790-03f7b7c8d504@posteo.de>


>>
>> Again, to reiterate, because I am still seeing evidence of
>> "complaints" out there, from people who believe this should be easy:
>> these are absolutely ridiculously tiny components and tolerances, and
>> the budget on which it's being done is equally as frugal. 0.05mm on
>> the edge of a PCB.  0.2 mm wide pins, with 0.2mm clearance between
>> them.  A "normal" Single-Board Computer product from any other
>> well-funded Corporation would use large (Type A) HDMI, top-mounted,
>> with plenty of tolerances and no need for the PCB edge to be
>> accurately milled.
>>
>> Again, to reiterate: we do not know what will need to be solved next.
>> Therefore, a production date simply cannot be provided, and that
>> really is the end of the matter.  Or, the answer is: the production
>> date is "the production time plus the unknown time to solve unknown
>> and unknowable future issues".
>>
>> Mike is sending me the 20 "good" PCBs so that I can test them here, to
>> see if they are okay.  The staff will continue with the rest by
>> shaving the burrs on the PCB on every single one of the remaining 80
>> with an xacto-knife, before putting them through the production line.
>>   It is looking like I will need to do the testing of all 100 of this
>> preliminary production run, here, at my home, in Taiwan.
> It does sound complicated, I wish you the best on this.  My hope is 
> that you will find the correct balance and succeed Luke.
>
> When it ships successfully, let us all know with some big bold letters 
> email title please. :)
Actually... I just realized I didn't trim it enough, my bad. :(


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Wed Jul  3 12:10:30 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:10:30 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] india shakti core to be available as a SBC
Message-ID: <CAPweEDyKcmROMpPymJvV6bG8aiHepvHYtWdzp0emKBBDCgBNXw@mail.gmail.com>

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/19/07/03/016227/indias-first-cpus-are-ready-for-app-development

this is amazing, i'm so delighted for them.


From paul at boddie.org.uk  Wed Jul  3 12:17:05 2019
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 13:17:05 +0200
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [eoma68 update] report back from factory on
	HDMI
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwehYz9wzHQ4Knz28p8=p3f0hhgOx+G_-uk_fyB3+e=FQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1859575.bLKHASlQNb@jeremy>

On Wednesday 3. July 2019 09.03.44 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> 
> Mike's staff began the PCB assembly of the run of 100, and had to stop
> at 36.  20 were ok: 16 of them, the HDMI connector refused to fit.
> The reason: the CNC machining on the edge of the PCB has not been done
> accurately enough: it's simply too ragged.  The staff did some
> experimentation, cleaning up some of the edges in the cut-out with an
> xacto-knife: this did the trick, even though it is shaving something
> like 0.01mm off the ragged edge of the PCB.

I can imagine how frustrating this can be, but it is good that some 
experimentation on the spot was able to identify the likely cause.

(My own limited experience with PCBs, albeit with "maker"-level producers, 
suggests that some PCB cutting/milling is not done as accurately or in as tidy 
a way as one might expect. There have also been some other interesting 
experiences with production quality with some producers, but that is another 
story.)

> The left and right edges do not matter too much, however where the
> HDMI connector comes in close, it definitely does.  Mike is going to
> talk to the PCB factory to see if there is anything that they can do
> in future, however with 1,000 PCBs already manufactured, the safest
> thing to do is probably to *hand-trim* that PCB edge, removing the
> burrs, on all 1,000 PCBs.

It is too bad that this adds another step to the process, but it at least 
hopefully remedies the issue. I guess it shows that minor faults can become 
more serious problems further down the chain of production.

> Again, to reiterate, because I am still seeing evidence of
> "complaints" out there, from people who believe this should be easy:
> these are absolutely ridiculously tiny components and tolerances, and
> the budget on which it's being done is equally as frugal.  0.05mm on
> the edge of a PCB.  0.2 mm wide pins, with 0.2mm clearance between
> them.

Having seen the measurements related to various parts, I can more easily 
believe how challenging it is. And it seems intimidating when considering the 
demands of production to such levels of accuracy.

> A "normal" Single-Board Computer product from any other
> well-funded Corporation would use large (Type A) HDMI, top-mounted,
> with plenty of tolerances and no need for the PCB edge to be
> accurately milled.

Yes, it seems that the larger but less ambitious players get off easy again.

> Again, to reiterate: we do not know what will need to be solved next.
> Therefore, a production date simply cannot be provided, and that
> really is the end of the matter.  Or, the answer is: the production
> date is "the production time plus the unknown time to solve unknown
> and unknowable future issues".

Well, I hope that you, Mike and his employees feel that valuable experience is 
being gained that will pay off in future. It would certainly be nicer if 
everything went more smoothly, but one might then wonder which potential 
problems are being missed.

> Mike is sending me the 20 "good" PCBs so that I can test them here, to
> see if they are okay.  The staff will continue with the rest by
> shaving the burrs on the PCB on every single one of the remaining 80
> with an xacto-knife, before putting them through the production line.
>  It is looking like I will need to do the testing of all 100 of this
> preliminary production run, here, at my home, in Taiwan.

And I hope that the rest of the run and the testing go a bit better than how 
things have gone so far. Keep up the good work!

Paul


From addw at phcomp.co.uk  Wed Jul  3 12:21:29 2019
From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain D D Williams)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:21:29 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] india shakti core to be available as a SBC
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDyKcmROMpPymJvV6bG8aiHepvHYtWdzp0emKBBDCgBNXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDyKcmROMpPymJvV6bG8aiHepvHYtWdzp0emKBBDCgBNXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190703112129.GY13330@phcomp.co.uk>

On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 12:10:30PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/19/07/03/016227/indias-first-cpus-are-ready-for-app-development
> 
> this is amazing, i'm so delighted for them.

+1

More different types of processors is good: better choice and can help improve security.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
#include <std_disclaimer.h>


From jbn at forestfield.org  Wed Jul  3 21:59:28 2019
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 15:59:28 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [eoma68 update] report back from factory on
 HDMI
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwehYz9wzHQ4Knz28p8=p3f0hhgOx+G_-uk_fyB3+e=FQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04e792e1-8388-594f-c049-aab2394028bd@forestfield.org>

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> Again, to reiterate, because I am still seeing evidence of
> "complaints" out there, from people who believe this should be easy:

Thanks, as always, for the updates. If we can somehow help, please do let 
us know.

I do not envy you having to deal with the perversity of matter. One of the 
niceties of working in software. I don't have to worry if two lines of code 
are too close together and will cause problems to assemble.

Thanks again.


From laserhawk64 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 22:55:47 2019
From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 17:55:47 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [eoma68 update] report back from factory on
	HDMI
In-Reply-To: <04e792e1-8388-594f-c049-aab2394028bd@forestfield.org>
References: <CAPweEDwehYz9wzHQ4Knz28p8=p3f0hhgOx+G_-uk_fyB3+e=FQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<04e792e1-8388-594f-c049-aab2394028bd@forestfield.org>
Message-ID: <CA+kEFNJy0EyvSih4Y=shAYDJGyOM-XMo_up=m4qtnW+AbUL93w@mail.gmail.com>

@ Luke -- as the old Latin phrase goes -- *festina lente*. Proceed with
haste, but slowly ;)

Also, things rarely, if ever, turn out the way one initially expects. This
is obviously one of the more 'scenic route' examples of that... but it is
nonetheless quite understandable.

Carry on!

From doark at mail.com  Thu Jul  4 02:43:46 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 21:43:46 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [eoma68 update] report back from factory on
 HDMI
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwehYz9wzHQ4Knz28p8=p3f0hhgOx+G_-uk_fyB3+e=FQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDzCUdXgQspRfCPkgczsvj+JZe6mAo9-BnuzBmygzh5zXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190703214346.7568dea9@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

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Hash: SHA256

On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:03:44 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>
> Date: Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 8:16 AM
> Subject: [eoma68 update] report back from factory on HDMI
> 
> Mike's staff began the PCB assembly of the run of 100, and had to stop
> at 36.  20 were ok: 16 of them, the HDMI connector refused to fit.
> The reason: the CNC machining on the edge of the PCB has not been done
> accurately enough: it's simply too ragged.  The staff did some
> experimentation, cleaning up some of the edges in the cut-out with an
> xacto-knife: this did the trick, even though it is shaving something
> like 0.01mm off the ragged edge of the PCB.
> 
> The left and right edges do not matter too much, however where the
> HDMI connector comes in close, it definitely does.  Mike is going to
> talk to the PCB factory to see if there is anything that they can do
> in future, however with 1,000 PCBs already manufactured, the safest
> thing to do is probably to *hand-trim* that PCB edge, removing the
> burrs, on all 1,000 PCBs.
> 
> Again, to reiterate, because I am still seeing evidence of
> "complaints" out there, from people who believe this should be easy:
> these are absolutely ridiculously tiny components and tolerances, and
> the budget on which it's being done is equally as frugal.  0.05mm on
> the edge of a PCB.  0.2 mm wide pins, with 0.2mm clearance between
> them.  A "normal" Single-Board Computer product from any other
> well-funded Corporation would use large (Type A) HDMI, top-mounted,
> with plenty of tolerances and no need for the PCB edge to be
> accurately milled.
> 
> Again, to reiterate: we do not know what will need to be solved next.
> Therefore, a production date simply cannot be provided, and that
> really is the end of the matter.  Or, the answer is: the production
> date is "the production time plus the unknown time to solve unknown
> and unknowable future issues".
> 
> Mike is sending me the 20 "good" PCBs so that I can test them here, to
> see if they are okay.  The staff will continue with the rest by
> shaving the burrs on the PCB on every single one of the remaining 80
> with an xacto-knife, before putting them through the production line.
>  It is looking like I will need to do the testing of all 100 of this
> preliminary production run, here, at my home, in Taiwan.

Maybe you should be focusing on FLOSS PCB tooling instead of Laptops. (-;
More seriously, from my experience it seems as though a lot of the
"professional" tools have major design problems. As though the engineers
gave up halfway through at the "test it in the real world" phase.

Sincerely,
David
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From doark at mail.com  Fri Jul  5 19:12:36 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 14:12:36 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Food for thought
Message-ID: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Dear luke, list,

As both luke and I are interested in chip fabrication I'm dropping this
email with a link to a story on a SW tool that is designed to help
improve designs based on how exactly a foundries process works.

Luke, the wording in this article looks very carefully chosen in places.
I'm totally in the dark as to why; e.g. "...the platform that analyzes
yields enables secure collaboration between the foundry and customer."

It's not free software so it might be interesting to try to find something
similar offered by the community. Or maybe we'll have to roll our own
eventually.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14613/synopsys-to-accelerate-samsungs-7nm-ramp-with-yield-explorer-platform

David
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From lkcl at lkcl.net  Fri Jul  5 19:42:46 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 19:42:46 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>

On Saturday, July 6, 2019, David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> Dear luke, list,
>
> As both luke and I are interested in chip fabrication I'm dropping this
> email with a link to a story on a SW tool that is designed to help
> improve designs based on how exactly a foundries process works.
>
> Luke, the wording in this article looks very carefully chosen in places.
> I'm totally in the dark as to why; e.g. "...the platform that analyzes
> yields enables secure collaboration between the foundry and customer."


The Foundries absolutely flatly refuse to trust their customers.

They flatly refuse to provide them with the "cells" for even basic things
like "a transiator".

So the tools basically have to create a GDS file with "holes" in them,
where things like "transistor" or "memory cell" or "IO Pad" go.

The fuckers won't even give information about the *size* of those "holes",
or how to connect to them, without an NDA.

However from what that article is *not* saying, even the "usual" NDA method
is just not enough, at the lower geometries. For 20nm and bigger, things
like MOSIS "rules" are perfectly sufficient. Lay out a design, no really
special knowledge that hasn't been known (realistically) for 20+ years, no
problem.

10nm and below is a WHOLE new level of weird.

It looks like there are some quantum interferences as well as EM and RF
issues, *and* probably some power and layout issues in the tinier
geometries, all of which the Foundries absolutely do not want the customers
to know about, because it constitues "reverse engineerable knowledge" about
how the Foundry lays out the chips, and a competitor Foundry could get hold
of that and start their own multi billion dollar money spinner.

So they did a deal with Synopsis, where they would tell *them* how to avoid
those pitfalls, as long as Synopsis promised to hide the information in
such a way that, whilst the customer got the layout advice they need to get
a working ASIC, they would in no way be able to know *how* that ASIC
actually got manufactured.

This is of course all inferred guesswork. Welcome to my world of low
probability logical deduction aka reverse engineering.

Bottom line is, we're literally decades and hundreds of millions of dollars
away from libre foundries.  I am probably out on those estimates by 1 to 2
orders of magnitude.  Luckily, DARPA recognises the problem and put up USD
150m to create fully libre automated ASIC layout software. It's a start.

In the meantime I am tracking what lip6.fr are doing (the team behind
alliance / coriolis2). They will be doing a 40nm tapeout using FreePDK,
ported to their cell library system.

Once successful it will be possible to follow in their footsteps and do a
40nm Libre RISCV tapeout.

The layout software produces *linearly* scaleable designs, so
hypothetically, as long as RF EM is ok (on chip) scaling to 28nm should be
feasible.  Just not straight away.

L.



-- 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

From doark at mail.com  Sat Jul  6 03:48:45 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 22:48:45 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190705224845.592532d8@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 19:42:46 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> On Saturday, July 6, 2019, David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Dear luke, list,
> >
> > As both luke and I are interested in chip fabrication I'm dropping
> > this email with a link to a story on a SW tool that is designed to
> > help improve designs based on how exactly a foundries process works.
> >
> > Luke, the wording in this article looks very carefully chosen in
> > places. I'm totally in the dark as to why; e.g. "...the platform that
> > analyzes yields enables secure collaboration between the foundry and
> > customer."  
> 
> 
> The Foundries absolutely flatly refuse to trust their customers.
> 
> They flatly refuse to provide them with the "cells" for even basic
> things like "a transiator".
> 
> So the tools basically have to create a GDS file with "holes" in them,
> where things like "transistor" or "memory cell" or "IO Pad" go.
> 
> The f*ckers won't even give information about the *size* of those
> "holes", or how to connect to them, without an NDA.
> 
> However from what that article is *not* saying, even the "usual" NDA
> method is just not enough, at the lower geometries. For 20nm and
> bigger, things like MOSIS "rules" are perfectly sufficient. Lay out a
> design, no really special knowledge that hasn't been known
> (realistically) for 20+ years, no problem.
> 
> 10nm and below is a WHOLE new level of weird.
> 
> It looks like there are some quantum interferences as well as EM and RF
> issues, *and* probably some power and layout issues in the tinier
> geometries, all of which the Foundries absolutely do not want the
> customers to know about, because it constitues "reverse engineerable
> knowledge" about how the Foundry lays out the chips, and a competitor
> Foundry could get hold of that and start their own multi billion dollar
> money spinner.

Here's where closed source IP really confuses me: If a "money spinner"
tried to do that wouldn't they be sued, pay royalties and regret it for
the rest of their existences? Therefore, this "they understand the
science and specs of our implementation," paranoia is unfounded, right?

> So they did a deal with Synopsis, where they would tell *them* how to
> avoid those pitfalls, as long as Synopsis promised to hide the
> information in such a way that, whilst the customer got the layout
> advice they need to get a working ASIC, they would in no way be able to
> know *how* that ASIC actually got manufactured.
> 
> This is of course all inferred guesswork. Welcome to my world of low
> probability logical deduction aka reverse engineering.
> 
> Bottom line is, we're literally decades and hundreds of millions of
> dollars away from libre foundries.  I am probably out on those
> estimates by 1 to 2 orders of magnitude. 

Are we talking any libre foundry, or some particular nm size (not that a
nm is actually used to describe a nm anymore)?

> Luckily, DARPA recognises the problem and put up USD 150m to create
> fully libre automated ASIC layout software. It's a start.

Interesting. For posterity, here's a link (with HTML garbage removed):
https://www.fbo.gov/index?id=a32e37cfad63edcba7cfd5d997422d93

Though it looks to be pre-alpha.

> In the meantime I am tracking what lip6.fr are doing (the team behind
> alliance / coriolis2). They will be doing a 40nm tapeout using FreePDK,
> ported to their cell library system.

I was able to locate the coriolis2 docs here:
https://www-soc.lip6.fr/sesi-docs/coriolis2-docs/coriolis2/en/html/users-guide/UsersGuide.html
and the alliance project has a web page with installation instructions
here:
https://www-soc.lip6.fr/equipe-cian/logiciels/alliance/

It's all very interesting.

> Once successful it will be possible to follow in their footsteps and do
> a 40nm Libre RISCV tapeout.
>
> The layout software produces *linearly* scaleable designs, so
> hypothetically, as long as RF EM is ok (on chip) scaling to 28nm should
> be feasible.  Just not straight away.
> 
> L.

Yay!

Thanks for the info,
David
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From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sat Jul  6 07:47:07 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 07:47:07 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <20190705224845.592532d8@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190705224845.592532d8@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDzTgBT8nBxQCEzp=n=T_9vPHOJABVG4j9s99-b8FENP1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 6, 2019 at 3:49 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:

> > It looks like there are some quantum interferences as well as EM and RF
> > issues, *and* probably some power and layout issues in the tinier
> > geometries, all of which the Foundries absolutely do not want the
> > customers to know about, because it constitues "reverse engineerable
> > knowledge" about how the Foundry lays out the chips, and a competitor
> > Foundry could get hold of that and start their own multi billion dollar
> > money spinner.
>
> Here's where closed source IP really confuses me: If a "money spinner"
> tried to do that wouldn't they be sued, pay royalties and regret it for
> the rest of their existences?

 in the meantime, whilst such a court case is underway, they're losing
literally billions due to the upstart having "stolen" their knowledge.
a CSMC employee actually did that to TSMC: worked on TSMC's 28nm line,
went back to China and started CSMC's 28nm line with the knowledge.

 it took years for the court case to go through, as it's in a
different international jurisdiction.


> > Bottom line is, we're literally decades and hundreds of millions of
> > dollars away from libre foundries.  I am probably out on those
> > estimates by 1 to 2 orders of magnitude.
>
> Are we talking any libre foundry, or some particular nm size (not that a
> nm is actually used to describe a nm anymore)?

 outside of my ability to say.

> > Luckily, DARPA recognises the problem and put up USD 150m to create
> > fully libre automated ASIC layout software. It's a start.
>
> Interesting. For posterity, here's a link (with HTML garbage removed):
> https://www.fbo.gov/index?id=a32e37cfad63edcba7cfd5d997422d93

 that is (was) a session link, now invalid.  what keywords did you use?

l.


From doark at mail.com  Tue Jul  9 04:28:12 2019
From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 23:28:12 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzTgBT8nBxQCEzp=n=T_9vPHOJABVG4j9s99-b8FENP1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190705224845.592532d8@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDzTgBT8nBxQCEzp=n=T_9vPHOJABVG4j9s99-b8FENP1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190708232812.0157c3e7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 07:47:07 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 6, 2019 at 3:49 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > It looks like there are some quantum interferences as well as EM
> > > and RF issues, *and* probably some power and layout issues in the
> > > tinier geometries, all of which the Foundries absolutely do not
> > > want the customers to know about, because it constitues "reverse
> > > engineerable knowledge" about how the Foundry lays out the chips,
> > > and a competitor Foundry could get hold of that and start their own
> > > multi billion dollar money spinner.  
> >
> > Here's where closed source IP really confuses me: If a "money spinner"
> > tried to do that wouldn't they be sued, pay royalties and regret it
> > for the rest of their existences?  
> 
>  in the meantime, whilst such a court case is underway, they're losing
> literally billions due to the upstart having "stolen" their knowledge.
> a CSMC employee actually did that to TSMC: worked on TSMC's 28nm line,
> went back to China and started CSMC's 28nm line with the knowledge.
> 
>  It took years for the court case to go through, as it's in a
> different international jurisdiction.

Ah, here the story is:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150225094201/http://english.cw.com.tw/article.do?action=show&id=14895

It seems to me that there will always be thieves in the world. Hiding
science does more harm to the scientific community then the
thieves.
Think long term though, luke, as chip fabrication plants are prone to
do, at least for process design and improvement. If I'm a priest and I'll
give away copies of the Bible and your a chip fabrication guru and you
don't ever tell anyone anything about chip fabrication what will the
population learn about?! Isn't it obvious that science will ultimately
die off or become some super diluted idiocy (old wives tales)?! If people
are willing to die for God(s) (real or not), but not even lift a finger,
but instead purposefully restrict knowledge and understanding, to teach
their fellow man the sciences will the sciences not be out competed many
to one?! Am I the only one who sees this (our/your/the chip fabs), fate?

I digress, this cannot be my life. It's fundamentally not for me. I'm a
fool for wanting to learn -- anything. I'm wedded to suicide. I'd be
equally productive considering the long term, in watching the clouds go
by. I'm going to do things differently... much, much differently, if I
have any say so at all in the matter!

> > > Bottom line is, we're literally decades and hundreds of millions of
> > > dollars away from libre foundries.  I am probably out on those
> > > estimates by 1 to 2 orders of magnitude.  
> >
> > Are we talking any libre foundry, or some particular nm size (not
> > that a nm is actually used to describe a nm anymore)?  
> 
>  Outside of my ability to say.

You know what happens when you can't answer one of my questions, right? :)
tap tap tap tap ...... tap tap tap ... Aha!
How's this, a 28/22nm chip fabrication plant for $4.2 billion?
Not that GlobalFounderies ever had a winning process...
https://www.anandtech.com/show/2814/3
And, if you read further down you can see that you can get a smaller
plant with a College campus for $4 billion.

I guess this means to buy one we'll have to empty our piggy banks. ;-)

> > > Luckily, DARPA recognises the problem and put up USD 150m to create
> > > fully libre automated ASIC layout software. It's a start.  
> >
> > Interesting. For posterity, here's a link (with HTML garbage removed):
> > https://www.fbo.gov/index?id=a32e37cfad63edcba7cfd5d997422d93  
> 
>  That is (was) a session link, now invalid.  What keywords did you use?
> 
> l.
> 

I got the link from the bottom of this page:
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/computers/article/16722067/darpa-asks-industry-for-swapoptimized-machine-learning-realtime-asics-able-to-learn-from-data

There's an actual absolute path on the webpage which seems to not be a
session link:
https://www.fbo.gov/spg/ODA/DARPA/CMO/HR001119S0037/listing.html

David
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From zapper at disroot.org  Tue Jul  9 05:00:06 2019
From: zapper at disroot.org (zap)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 00:00:06 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <20190708232812.0157c3e7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190705224845.592532d8@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDzTgBT8nBxQCEzp=n=T_9vPHOJABVG4j9s99-b8FENP1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190708232812.0157c3e7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <af795e2a-0fb9-f35e-e3fb-c83002130fef@disroot.org>


> Ah, here the story is:
> https://web.archive.org/web/20150225094201/http://english.cw.com.tw/article.do?action=show&id=14895
>
> It seems to me that there will always be thieves in the world. Hiding
> science does more harm to the scientific community then the
> thieves.
> Think long term though, luke, as chip fabrication plants are prone to
> do, at least for process design and improvement. If I'm a priest and I'll
> give away copies of the Bible and your a chip fabrication guru and you
> don't ever tell anyone anything about chip fabrication what will the
> population learn about?! Isn't it obvious that science will ultimately
> die off or become some super diluted idiocy (old wives tales)?! If people
> are willing to die for God(s) (real or not), but not even lift a finger,
> but instead purposefully restrict knowledge and understanding, to teach
> their fellow man the sciences will the sciences not be out competed many
> to one?! Am I the only one who sees this (our/your/the chip fabs), fate?
To be honest, I don't really understand why more people don't support 
freedom of knowledge more, one of the basic beliefs of serving God was 
supposed to be freedom to be the best you, you can be. Yet at the same 
time, there are people out there who *claim to believe in god* who think 
excercising freedom means hoarding knowledge or rights for yourself only 
and restricting others. The irony of that is that you cannot serve both 
money or God. Another irony though is that sharing is universally a good 
thing and in many ways is Godly.  As long as it isn't about sharing 
people... aka romance...


I also believe though we need to take better care of our world. Stupid 
people who don't believe in any form of science or believe in psuedo 
science(s) should not be our rulers, etc... Extremism, as always is the 
main issue of life. People like to be all or nothing a lot, but I 
believe that all or nothing thinking leads to calamities. There is a lot 
of gray out there. Some darker, some lighter. Emulation is a perfect 
example of this, as companies genuinely seem to want to make you have to 
pay for multiple copies of the same thing if one breaks. This is 
complete bs, digital restrictions management and all rights reserved 
licenses will always be the wrong method due to the issue of not being 
allowed to modify or share or reveal what is in it.

PS, I don't believe science and God disprove each other. There can be 
unfamothable parallels.

Many paths, many sorrows, one hope only.

>
> I digress, this cannot be my life. It's fundamentally not for me. I'm a
> fool for wanting to learn -- anything. I'm wedded to suicide. I'd be
> equally productive considering the long term, in watching the clouds go
> by. I'm going to do things differently... much, much differently, if I
> have any say so at all in the matter!
As for this, suicide is not the answer.  IF someone is truly evil on a 
nazi level, I think its less bad, but still bad nonetheless.

I wish you the best on finding hope in life. That being said, evil is 
very hard to avoid in our pit of a world.

PS, anyone reading this may agree to disagree if they choose. I don't 
want to force people to be a certain way. Everyone has a path to carve, 
choose wisely.




From lkcl at lkcl.net  Tue Jul  9 14:35:48 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:35:48 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <20190708232812.0157c3e7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190705224845.592532d8@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDzTgBT8nBxQCEzp=n=T_9vPHOJABVG4j9s99-b8FENP1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190708232812.0157c3e7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDzxucYWppkmB_ufijNrzRPVd6qJ6YedYo6_zNTOBhTE=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 4:28 AM <doark at mail.com> wrote:

> You know what happens when you can't answer one of my questions, right? :)
> tap tap tap tap ...... tap tap tap ... Aha!
> How's this, a 28/22nm chip fabrication plant for $4.2 billion?
> Not that GlobalFounderies ever had a winning process...
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/2814/3
> And, if you read further down you can see that you can get a smaller
> plant with a College campus for $4 billion.

 cool!

> I guess this means to buy one we'll have to empty our piggy banks. ;-)

 or someone else's.  always better to empty someone else's piggy bank :)

l.


From eaterjolly at gmail.com  Tue Jul  9 16:55:05 2019
From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (J.L.)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:55:05 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9ifjtA6t3dNVQ4SAMfXbFbg2yyWO2D5Pq-G+fY=4ViE+skJw@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/5/19, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> This is of course all inferred guesswork. Welcome to my world of low
> probability logical deduction aka reverse engineering.

Sounds as though they have a "Speak no evil; Hear no evil, then See no
evil" mentality. They'd likely prefer not to consciously perceive by
any readily made stretch of the imagination the moral dissonance
associated with secrecy to stifle global manufacturing developments,
including their own in a prisoner's dilemma type scenario.

That probably would make them more willing to admit fault or talk
openly about changing the world to a close deeply-trusted associate
very rarely, since exclusively thinking about such changes in safely
confined contexts mitigates moral strain or moral system breakage.

Fortunately none of us have sold our souls, yet; so, we needn't worry
about reinforcing that sortof self-deception to maintain our sense of
identity... yet : )

Attack on Titan, when Commander Erwin commanded Levi to save Armin
instead. Erwin had become a monster to fight monsters. Now, with the
humans on the verge of victory against their foe, someone not a
monster must take the monsters place. Can one even preserve their
personhood as a titan, or do all titans eventually become monsters?

I suppose the struggle between person and beast will always exist, and
stronger in titans.

-- 
CC0


From doark at mail.com  Wed Jul 10 02:15:30 2019
From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:15:30 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzxucYWppkmB_ufijNrzRPVd6qJ6YedYo6_zNTOBhTE=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190705224845.592532d8@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDzTgBT8nBxQCEzp=n=T_9vPHOJABVG4j9s99-b8FENP1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190708232812.0157c3e7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDzxucYWppkmB_ufijNrzRPVd6qJ6YedYo6_zNTOBhTE=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190709211530.1a61dfb6@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:35:48 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 4:28 AM <doark at mail.com> wrote:
>
> > You know what happens when you can't answer one of my questions,
> > right? :) tap tap tap tap ...... tap tap tap ... Aha!
> > How's this, a 28/22nm chip fabrication plant for $4.2 billion?
> > Not that GlobalFounderies ever had a winning process...
> > https://www.anandtech.com/show/2814/3
> > And, if you read further down you can see that you can get a smaller
> > plant with a College campus for $4 billion.
>
>  cool!
>
<snip>

Please be aware that there are 3 costs involved in a foundry (I wish I
could remember or find where I read this).
1. The cost of building it. Really big.
2. The cost of starting it up for the first time. AFAIR 1/2 of the cost
   of building it.
3. The cost of running it. Normally the customers pay for this.

So, just having the funds to build a foun doesn't mean we can start
producing chips.

Sincerely,
David


From doark at mail.com  Wed Jul 10 02:55:00 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:55:00 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <af795e2a-0fb9-f35e-e3fb-c83002130fef@disroot.org>
References: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190705224845.592532d8@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDzTgBT8nBxQCEzp=n=T_9vPHOJABVG4j9s99-b8FENP1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190708232812.0157c3e7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<af795e2a-0fb9-f35e-e3fb-c83002130fef@disroot.org>
Message-ID: <20190709215444.7baf4339@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

According to claws-mail, this email was lost. If this is a resend then it
is also a re-write with a little additional material at the end. So,
reply to this one.

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 00:00:06 -0400
zap <zapper at disroot.org> wrote:
> > Ah, here the story is:
> > https://web.archive.org/web/20150225094201/http://english.cw.com.tw/article.do?action=show&id=14895
> >
> > It seems to me that there will always be thieves in the world. Hiding
> > science does more harm to the scientific community then the
> > thieves.
> > Think long term though, luke, as chip fabrication plants are prone to
> > do, at least for process design and improvement. If I'm a priest and
> > I'll give away copies of the Bible and your a chip fabrication guru
> > and you don't ever tell anyone anything about chip fabrication what
> > will the population learn about?! Isn't it obvious that science will
> > ultimately die off or become some super diluted idiocy (old wives
> > tales)?! If people are willing to die for God(s) (real or not), but
> > not even lift a finger, but instead purposefully restrict knowledge
> > and understanding, to teach their fellow man the sciences will the
> > sciences not be out competed many to one?! Am I the only one who sees
> > this (our/your/the chip fabs), fate?  
> To be honest, I don't really understand why more people don't support
> freedom of knowledge more, one of the basic beliefs of serving God was
> supposed to be freedom to be the best you, you can be. Yet at the same
> time, there are people out there who *claim to believe in god* who
> think excercising freedom means hoarding knowledge or rights for
> yourself only and restricting others. The irony of that is that you
> cannot serve both money or God. Another irony though is that sharing is
> universally a good thing and in many ways is Godly.  As long as it
> isn't about sharing people... aka romance...
> 
>
> I also believe though we need to take better care of our world. Stupid
> people who don't believe in any form of science or believe in psuedo
> science(s) should not be our rulers, etc... Extremism, as always is the
> main issue of life. People like to be all or nothing a lot, but I
> believe that all or nothing thinking leads to calamities. There is a
> lot of gray out there. Some darker, some lighter. Emulation is a
> perfect example of this, as companies genuinely seem to want to make
> you have to pay for multiple copies of the same thing if one breaks.
> This is complete bs, digital restrictions management and all rights
> reserved licenses will always be the wrong method due to the issue of
> not being allowed to modify or share or reveal what is in it.
> 
> PS, I don't believe science and God disprove each other. There can be
> unfamothable parallels.
> 
> Many paths, many sorrows, one hope only.

I was contrasting the spread of religion with science to make a point,
not that the are mutually exclusive. For if God created the world, which
works on scientific principles, can God be against science?

> > I digress, this cannot be my life. It's fundamentally not for me. I'm
> > a fool for wanting to learn -- anything. I'm wedded to suicide. I'd be
> > equally productive considering the long term, in watching the clouds
> > go by. I'm going to do things differently... much, much differently,
> > if I have any say so at all in the matter!  
> As for this, suicide is not the answer.  IF someone is truly evil on a
> nazi level, I think its less bad, but still bad nonetheless.
> 
> I wish you the best on finding hope in life. That being said, evil is
> very hard to avoid in our pit of a world.
> 
> PS, anyone reading this may agree to disagree if they choose. I don't
> want to force people to be a certain way. Everyone has a path to carve,
> choose wisely.

I did not mean to indicate that suicide was the answer. I was trying to
say that a system that kills itself is suicidal and that in as much as I
participate in it then I too will be killing my field and aught to be in
another.
My hope is in doing things differently in keeping with the obvious
words of Christ: "Neither do men light a candle (the candle of science),
and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may give light
to all that are in the house." -- Douay Rheims

Chip fabs depend on smart well educated people to operate and design
them. If they wall off the knowledge as to how they work the brains of the
smart people will either take interest in another field, atrophy, or
arrive at the plants will little knowledge of what to do or how they work.
I've tried to find books on the subject. Look at the current material
like "Silicon Processing For The Vlsi Era":

These are ebay used books:
$4.57 293115019126 Volume 1: Process Technology
$5.60 143211754813 Volume 2: Process Integration (ExLib)
$6.08 143179464527 Volume 3: The Submicron MOSFET

And finally on amazon used books:
$499.51 ISBN: 978-0961672171 Volume 4: Deep-Submicron Process Technology

That price for a book of 822 pages *used* is HUGE!!!! I can get a
*new* book with ~2x as many pages for $130, namely, my Bible.

Read the comments (highlights mine):
"This book provides a great amount of information on a field where there
isn't much information to be found.[SIC] It is easy to read and very
descriptive - highly recommended.

It is a 2002[SIC] book though, talking about a field which evolves too
quickly. Some of the "future" things the book talks about have already
happened or the industry decided to move in a different direction, but in
general this is not much a problem.[Unless you want to learn how to do
this.]"

Or

"This well written reference book is highly recommended to anyone
interested in the technology used to manufacture deep-submicron MOSFETs,
i.e., MOSFETs requiring lithography in the 1/4 to 1/8-micron[SIC]
range. ..."

1/8th of a micron is 125nm! 125nm! We're at 7nm, with 6nm risk
production IIRC, and 5nm is in an alpha state!

...Sigh...

Feel free to ask for clarification if needed. I'll try again. I'm not mad
at you, at them, rather like Faust, I suffer from "care". And a bad case
of it at that.

Sincerely,
David
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From zapper at disroot.org  Wed Jul 10 14:53:02 2019
From: zapper at disroot.org (zap)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:53:02 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <20190709215444.7baf4339@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190705224845.592532d8@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDzTgBT8nBxQCEzp=n=T_9vPHOJABVG4j9s99-b8FENP1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190708232812.0157c3e7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<af795e2a-0fb9-f35e-e3fb-c83002130fef@disroot.org>
	<20190709215444.7baf4339@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <0f01d542-7b11-cb6f-581b-a3483e6ff489@disroot.org>


> I did not mean to indicate that suicide was the answer. I was trying to
> say that a system that kills itself is suicidal and that in as much as I
> participate in it then I too will be killing my field and aught to be in
> another.
> My hope is in doing things differently in keeping with the obvious
> words of Christ: "Neither do men light a candle (the candle of science),
> and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may give light
> to all that are in the house." -- Douay Rheims
Ah, okay. Just making sure. Suicide is understandable to me, but its 
still not a good idea or right no matter the reason.  Though I do 
sympathize with people who think they need to.

That being said, if everything we have comes from God, why on earth do 
we try to copyright things to death to the point where when we sell 
stuff, we still technically own a part of it and the other person only 
half owns it. It really doesn't add up.

That being said, on an unrelated note,  I wonder if OpenBSD or a fork of 
it, will ever be put on the eoma68 laptop. (I know its a standard, but I 
was talking about all revisions of it.)

I only ask, because OpenBSD can be used in a libre way and because its 
the most secure known operating system on the planet that I know of.


From eaterjolly at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 20:30:22 2019
From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (J.L.)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:30:22 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Food for thought
In-Reply-To: <0f01d542-7b11-cb6f-581b-a3483e6ff489@disroot.org>
References: <20190705141218.273700f7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyRm=_aX4CFxGAHY_YVF4KYghjA8FxhMnAwqbZfDpN4Ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190705224845.592532d8@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDzTgBT8nBxQCEzp=n=T_9vPHOJABVG4j9s99-b8FENP1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190708232812.0157c3e7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<af795e2a-0fb9-f35e-e3fb-c83002130fef@disroot.org>
	<20190709215444.7baf4339@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<0f01d542-7b11-cb6f-581b-a3483e6ff489@disroot.org>
Message-ID: <CA+9ifjsQZrw2yd6K8a5F8ZT5oiDJQGOYwAYOmfYz5d9jwnA=9A@mail.gmail.com>

@Doark, I appreciate how you attached the (s) at the end.
A nice gesture of "good faith" for any pagan..

Unfortunately, new ideas tend to require isolation from existing ideas.
People create more quarky software, when they have no examples to go on.

Free information AND free culture,
somewhat, if not mostly depend, on people isolating their selves from
information,
to continue developing new perspectives.

Increasing awareness about internet addictions as well as what makes
them unique,
as well as discussion about filter bubbles which may lead to more
rigorous libre designs,
we can behold that shift however we must lockstep with internet
community health.

Not to derail an already wobbly train.
As for suicide,
This disturbing zeitgeist causes me to feel a few axioms need said.
Too many, too prestigious forums censor these moral views.
(including wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Eaterjolly )
I deem giving meaning to another's suicidal ideation, (normative-ly) immoral.
I deem actively (contrary to passively) preventing suicide more
heinous than murder.

We could discuss for ages the caveats and reasons.
If anyone would like to, I invite them to email me directly..
we could even start a group discussion. Sounds grimly fun.

More on-topic:
@Luke, your 3D printer setup still impresses me.

P.S. I changed my tagline name to J.L., but you all knew me as "Jean"
or "Jean-Luc" Flamelle previously (nickname, hopefully one day real
name). I haven't posted in a while.

-- 
CC0


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sat Jul 13 20:17:23 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 20:17:23 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Funding ideas
In-Reply-To: <641240697.44645.1563033037682@office.mailbox.org>
References: <641240697.44645.1563033037682@office.mailbox.org>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDyOn3UUhRunwFJJzmDu=XFksXyPzQEXwrtqWeU7v2cC-g@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ---------
Date: Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 4:51 PM
Subject: Funding ideas
To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>


Hey. Sad to say I had little progress on my "Why EOMA for crypto"
article/promo campaign but at least I have some ideas to share.

1. Education

What is a good susbtance for education? Something open and available.
You can't teach and study the making of computers on closed Intel
hardware and software. You can use open platforms like OLPC or Minix
but most of them have a drawback - they are either purely
academic/educational, or unpopular/unsuccessful in the wild.

With EOMA and Libre RISC you (as an educational institution) can have
both: something that is open down to the bone and can be a great
learning substance for studens, _and_ something that is a real
commercial product in the wild.

The idea is to grow partnerships with schools/unis/academia (and
possibly win some grants).

For EOMA there are potential strategic benefits - it will be very hard
to kill something that generation(s) have studied in schools/unis. If
your random geek neighbor can fix or upgrade your device I'd call it a
win.

2. OSS funding platforms

Recently I ran across some OSS funding movements emerging in the crypto space.

One is called Gitcoin. It is a general bounty platform for funding
open source. Recently they had quite a lot of overlap with Ethereum

https://gitcoin.co/blog/radical-results-gitcoins-25k-match/

Another one is GitHub - they recently integrated a sponsorship system
that allows to fund individual developers. Repository admins can now
increase visibility of funding options for their open source projects
via the FUNDING.yml file, which currently supports GitHub Sponsorship,
Patreon, Open Collective, Ko-Fi, Tidelift, Community Bridge, as well
as custom URLs.

https://help.github.com/en/categories/supporting-the-open-source-community-with-github-sponsors
https://help.github.com/en/articles/displaying-a-sponsor-button-in-your-repository

I'm sure there are other such platforms. The common thing is they all
look how to match donors with workers.

3. Grants from specific crypto treasuries

Zcash Foundation grants is just one example. This is obviously not
general and is Zcash specific. Since the focus is Zcash, I guess they
might need clear understanding what will Zcash gain - in our case this
is a non backdoored, fully auditable, cheap device that allows one to
run a light crypto wallet and that you can easily carry around.

Example funded initiative:

https://zengo.com/zcash-foundation-funds-research-project-by-kzen/

The above idea applies to any cryptocommunity that might be interested
in cheap and trusted computing device.

It also applies to Decred - we now have a platform where anybody can
pitch an idea to stakeholders, run a vote and possibly get funded.
Like 10 or 20 initiatives have already been funded. They were all
specific to Decred, but I hope that the understanding of importance of
hardware will grow and stakeholders would approve some joint funding
for decent projects like EOMA.

4. Meta: reuse existing research

The problem is not new. This guide has collected various approaches
and case studies: https://github.com/nayafia/lemonade-stand

Feel free to share this to anyone who might advance these ideas.


From zapper at disroot.org  Sun Jul 14 18:31:23 2019
From: zapper at disroot.org (zap)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 13:31:23 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Funding ideas
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDyOn3UUhRunwFJJzmDu=XFksXyPzQEXwrtqWeU7v2cC-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <641240697.44645.1563033037682@office.mailbox.org>
	<CAPweEDyOn3UUhRunwFJJzmDu=XFksXyPzQEXwrtqWeU7v2cC-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a1417796-bddc-ac99-4452-f4a5e05831fb@disroot.org>



On 07/13/2019 03:17 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> Date: Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 4:51 PM
> Subject: Funding ideas
> To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>
>
>
> Hey. Sad to say I had little progress on my "Why EOMA for crypto"
> article/promo campaign but at least I have some ideas to share.
Not to be rude, but I think it might be hard till you get the eoma68 a20 
boards out.  I really do want to support you, if I had a job I would 
donate to you, but alas, I no longer have one...  That being said, I do 
want you to succeed Luke.

I am hopeful you will be able to ship by 2018 aug 1st.  But please for 
God's sake, don't let it go past 2020 janurary.  ;p

I am hopeful that won't have to happen, but in all seriousness, send a 
message to this list when everything ships.  :)


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Mon Jul 15 03:34:40 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 03:34:40 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Funding ideas
In-Reply-To: <a1417796-bddc-ac99-4452-f4a5e05831fb@disroot.org>
References: <641240697.44645.1563033037682@office.mailbox.org>
	<CAPweEDyOn3UUhRunwFJJzmDu=XFksXyPzQEXwrtqWeU7v2cC-g@mail.gmail.com>
	<a1417796-bddc-ac99-4452-f4a5e05831fb@disroot.org>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwq7YY_tvpvJ4gv_6=eK2kR0KRBAPYS0cV5=FnivJWBJA@mail.gmail.com>

On Monday, July 15, 2019, zap <zapper at disroot.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 07/13/2019 03:17 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> Date: Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 4:51 PM
>> Subject: Funding ideas
>> To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>
>>
>>
>> Hey. Sad to say I had little progress on my "Why EOMA for crypto"
>> article/promo campaign but at least I have some ideas to share.
>>
> Not to be rude, but I think it might be hard till you get the eoma68 a20
> boards out.  I really do want to support you, if I had a job I would donate
> to you, but alas, I no longer have one...  That being said, I do want you
> to succeed Luke.


Appreciated.


>
> I am hopeful you will be able to ship by 2018 aug 1st.  But please for
> God's sake, don't let it go past 2020 janurary.  ;p


:) sigh we just have to let Mike deal with the production.


>
> I am hopeful that won't have to happen, but in all seriousness, send a
> message to this list when everything ships.  :)


Of course :)


>
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk



-- 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

From eaterjolly at gmail.com  Tue Jul 16 22:47:57 2019
From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (J.L.)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:47:57 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ubuntu as a moral ideology applied to "Guilds"
Message-ID: <CA+9ifjtezmcD4xjEadBBQn72mE7w6sRHtJn2TYO-dcjspANT1Q@mail.gmail.com>

In the vaguest-broadest historical sense, guild means a loose
hierarchal collective identifing with one category of labour (the
craft), who make potentially predictable aspects of the craft less
unpredictable through exposition and memorization. Trust pre-requires
any "cathedral" such as a "guild" to not abusively attempt to
solipsistically shape reality by shaping the perception of reality,
such as by investing in predictions disporportionately with certainty
in those predictions merely as an expression of desire for those
prediction's to be true. Ubuntu roughly translates to "a state caused
by social justice called personhood" represents a practice of
protecting the differences of others as well as yourself through
intentionally detached means, essentially giving attention to whether
others are who they want to be and seeking to keep them who they want
to be even while fighting them. At scale, that equates to maximizing
agency (or choices on who or what to be agent of). Ubuntu fits in the
semantics where I placed the keyword 'abusively' or where one might
believe in 'solipsism'. A "cathedral" such as a "guild" indubitably
makes bets which shape reality solely by shaping the perception of
reality, whether one literally believes in solipsism or figuratively
believes people build according to what any "cathedral" facilitates
their visualization of. Thus, one might claim ubuntu obligates a
"cathedral" such as a "guild" to describe reality in a way maximally
motivating to the most extremely detached interests.

The following video (licensed creative commons) at one point uses
agile as an example, while describing in detail (without explicitly
mentioning the word) how give ubuntu to others from the most socially
abstract (a leadership) position in the terran civilization (earth):

(if the author had heard about ubuntu, they would probably agree with ubuntu)

https://invidio.us/watch?v=VaWNQjFtGD0

Note some grammatical nuances: 1 i say socially abstract rather than
leadership, to support the notion of invisible unstructured entirely
anonymous influence over a "standalone complex"; socially abstract
describes the state of mind and epistemological faculties rather than
any particular identity, such as how the (what I'd call) 'temporal
identity' of 'the laughing man' is controlled by ideas rather than a
person. 2 i say terran civilization to include all intelligent or
potentially intelligent species on any terra-class planet, rather than
any more limited more common category 3 ubuntu traditionally
recognizes animal species as having the potential to achieve more
ubuntu than humans on occasion, therefore calling the state humanity
contradicts the nature of ubuntu in a fundamental way for no
relationship has more potential for detachment than beings physically
(not merely cognitively) in capable of communicating the same
language.

The following video attempts to describe ubuntu explicitly. The author
very prolifically documents popular ideologies commonly referred to as
"philosophy" particularly "greek philosophy", which should give them
some accreditation to judge the merits of ubuntu. The author currently
lives in west africa, which should accredit their ability to
accurately research african philosophy.

https://invidio.us/watch?v=E_naFb_kdCQ

I would definitely like to get in contact with the author to ask them
about licensing all their awesome contributions the internet's
commonwealth of information, as creative commons.

To any one interested, I still have interest in updating the
rhombus-tech wiki including the tables summarizing the scale and
freeness of known major open source projects. I still have interest in
PocketCHIP's hardware (though the backing company failed/collapsed),
though I believe heavily in urbit's OS architecture so I want to focus
my effort in studying urbit with the intention to perhaps one day have
hardware such as EOMA (novice) or PocketCHIP (hacker) form a bottom-up
libre computer boot to an urbit userland with as minimal middleware as
possible. I need to learn/develop-in-mind the standards (or, one might
say, the most ubuntu way) first, then make progress in that direction.
In short, I want as certain about where I want to go as possible,
prior to taking steps in any direction.

Please don't discount me for my absence : P

Side-note: I've joined the U.S. Navy
(not a fan of the U.S. military, yet hope to make a difference)


-- 
CC0


From doark at mail.com  Wed Jul 17 03:14:32 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 22:14:32 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] co can see IP without paying through the roof,
	how nice of ARM.
Message-ID: <20190716221432.5bcccde7@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

It seems that RISC-V is really making some waves and encouraging some
<strike> intelligence </strike> sanity in the industry.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14644/arm-flexible-access-design-the-soc-before-spending-money

David
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From lkcl at lkcl.net  Wed Jul 17 07:30:06 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:30:06 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ubuntu as a moral ideology applied to "Guilds"
In-Reply-To: <CA+9ifjtezmcD4xjEadBBQn72mE7w6sRHtJn2TYO-dcjspANT1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9ifjtezmcD4xjEadBBQn72mE7w6sRHtJn2TYO-dcjspANT1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDxw5qs9UPo4FdhjroWNZMo_rq=t0YbzPwMpVw6YxYmqcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 10:48 PM J.L. <eaterjolly at gmail.com> wrote:

> prediction's to be true. Ubuntu roughly translates to "a state caused
> by social justice called personhood"

fascinating.

> Please don't discount me for my absence : P

:)

> Side-note: I've joined the U.S. Navy
> (not a fan of the U.S. military, yet hope to make a difference)

can i recommend following the practice of being a silent witness and
an *example* rather than an "evangelist"?  the context of working
within a Military "Family" is very very clear: everyone *absolutely*
has to be able to trust everyone else *100%* with their lives -
literally.

anything that undermines that - by way of someone having an "agenda"
*other* than the one that everyone else signed up for - leaves both
you in jeapordy as well as your fellows and peers.

l.


From doark at mail.com  Wed Jul 17 13:37:13 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:37:13 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ubuntu as a moral ideology applied to "Guilds"
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDxw5qs9UPo4FdhjroWNZMo_rq=t0YbzPwMpVw6YxYmqcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9ifjtezmcD4xjEadBBQn72mE7w6sRHtJn2TYO-dcjspANT1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDxw5qs9UPo4FdhjroWNZMo_rq=t0YbzPwMpVw6YxYmqcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190717083713.2a50dfa3@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:30:06 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 10:48 PM J.L. <eaterjolly at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > prediction's to be true. Ubuntu roughly translates to "a state caused
> > by social justice called personhood"  
> 
> fascinating.
> 
> > Please don't discount me for my absence : P  
> 
> :)

Pity this was not all on list, it looks like an interesting discussion.

> > Side-note: I've joined the U.S. Navy
> > (not a fan of the U.S. military, yet hope to make a difference)  
> 
> can i recommend following the practice of being a silent witness and
> an *example* rather than an "evangelist"?  the context of working
> within a Military "Family" is very very clear: everyone *absolutely*
> has to be able to trust everyone else *100%* with their lives -
> literally.
> 
> anything that undermines that - by way of someone having an "agenda"
> *other* than the one that everyone else signed up for - leaves both
> you in jeapordy as well as your fellows and peers.
> 
> l.
> 

Not more than 5 years ago my own mother looked into what a career in the
military/navy/air force would entail (probably because her children got
several advertisements), and noticed that there was some amount of social
experimentation going on. Caution, when participating, would be prudent.
I could ask for details if you're interested.

Sincerely,
David
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From eaterjolly at gmail.com  Wed Jul 17 17:17:37 2019
From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (J.L.)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:17:37 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ubuntu as a moral ideology applied to "Guilds"
In-Reply-To: <20190717083713.2a50dfa3@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <CA+9ifjtezmcD4xjEadBBQn72mE7w6sRHtJn2TYO-dcjspANT1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDxw5qs9UPo4FdhjroWNZMo_rq=t0YbzPwMpVw6YxYmqcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190717083713.2a50dfa3@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9ifjumxbYphoXQrTSwkvwKiaGYQJ9baA=Vd7hG-rwR2OsEog@mail.gmail.com>

@Doark, yes, due prudence.
@Luke, to that which I agree, I answer:
https://www.invidio.us/watch?v=zbhgvuhphBE

-- 
CC0


From doark at mail.com  Thu Jul 18 04:27:27 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:27:27 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fixing the fex file once and for all
Message-ID: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Dear luke,
Although I can't find the post, I do remember you writing about the fex
file and how hard it is to modify it.
I've encountered some similar problems when programming and I've always
thought of doing things like Donald Ervin Knuth recommended. That would
be, I would use literate programming. I've not read the official paper
through because I did not know it was available (and I did not buy the
book which I did know about).
As it is, when I went looking for you for some information on the subject
I found more then I had expected for you.
A paper: http://www.literateprogramming.com/knuthweb.pdf
Website: http://www.literateprogramming.com/
Criticism: http://akkartik.name/post/literate-programming

The criticism shows how this method can be taken to an extreme and be a
complete waste of everyones time.

Hope it helps,
David
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From lkcl at lkcl.net  Thu Jul 18 06:35:53 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 06:35:53 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fixing the fex file once and for all
In-Reply-To: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDyvw_WjZULnBpKgRHkVnzMpu4tLtvva5BTp7Vc=fQqCrQ@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 4:28 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:

> A paper: http://www.literateprogramming.com/knuthweb.pdf
> Website: http://www.literateprogramming.com/
> Criticism: http://akkartik.name/post/literate-programming
>
> The criticism shows how this method can be taken to an extreme and be a
> complete waste of everyones time.

"Literally the first line of code shown is a macro to access a field
for presumably a struct whose definition — whose very type name — we
haven't even seen yet. "

i stopped reading the akkartik.name post at this point.  use of
sarcasm to criticise one of the most highly regarded and influential
people in computer science is just going to piss people off.

#defines are *KNOWN* to be a pre-processor stage.  if you don't know
that, get f*****g educated for f***'s sake.

i'm getting quite alarmed at the amount of blatant ignorance and
misinformation about c that seems to be propagating through the
internet at the moment.


"Let us change our traditional attitude to the construction of
programs: Instead of imagining that our main task is to instruct a
computer what to do, let us concentrate rather on explaining to human
beings what we want a computer to do."

this is why there is an entrepreneur that flatly refuses to employ
computer science majors: he employs ENGLISH LANGUAGE majors and PAYS
to have them trained to program.

the reason is extremely simple: they make better communicators, they
make better team co-workers, they write better documentation and they
write maintainable and understandable code.

l.




>
> Hope it helps,
> David
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> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk


From doark at mail.com  Thu Jul 18 15:43:57 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 10:43:57 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fixing the fex file once and for all
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDyvw_WjZULnBpKgRHkVnzMpu4tLtvva5BTp7Vc=fQqCrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyvw_WjZULnBpKgRHkVnzMpu4tLtvva5BTp7Vc=fQqCrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190718104357.3926ad1a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 06:35:53 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
> 
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 4:28 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> 
> > A paper: http://www.literateprogramming.com/knuthweb.pdf
> > Website: http://www.literateprogramming.com/
> > Criticism: http://akkartik.name/post/literate-programming
> >
> > The criticism shows how this method can be taken to an extreme and be
> > a complete waste of everyones time.  
> 
> "Literally the first line of code shown is a macro to access a field
> for presumably a struct whose definition — whose very type name — we
> haven't even seen yet. "
> 
> i stopped reading the akkartik.name post at this point.  use of
> sarcasm to criticise one of the most highly regarded and influential
> people in computer science is just going to piss people off.
> 
> #defines are *KNOWN* to be a pre-processor stage.  if you don't know
> that, get f*****g educated for f***'s sake.
> 
> i'm getting quite alarmed at the amount of blatant ignorance and
> misinformation about c that seems to be propagating through the
> internet at the moment.
> 
> 
> "Let us change our traditional attitude to the construction of
> programs: Instead of imagining that our main task is to instruct a
> computer what to do, let us concentrate rather on explaining to human
> beings what we want a computer to do."
> 
> this is why there is an entrepreneur that flatly refuses to employ
> computer science majors: he employs ENGLISH LANGUAGE majors and PAYS
> to have them trained to program.
> 
> the reason is extremely simple: they make better communicators, they
> make better team co-workers, they write better documentation and they
> write maintainable and understandable code.
> 
> l.
> 

Actually, I just skimmed the article and I was referring to the part of
his post where he criticized the documenting of basic includes (we all
know what stdio.h is). In the case of defines I assumed that he was
talking about things like the common MAX.
I tend to assume people are arguing intelligently. Next time I'll be more
careful when referring you.

But going back to the point of my original email, would literate
programming be any good to you in this case?

Sincerely,
David
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From lkcl at lkcl.net  Thu Jul 18 15:49:43 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:49:43 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fixing the fex file once and for all
In-Reply-To: <20190718104357.3926ad1a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyvw_WjZULnBpKgRHkVnzMpu4tLtvva5BTp7Vc=fQqCrQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190718104357.3926ad1a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDxitD-2yXgZChCP1MXEttfTCnz4Bp=WKy3HDCgSfQ+k-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 3:44 PM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:


> But going back to the point of my original email, would literate
> programming be any good to you in this case?

 honestly, just other people helping out - *actually* helping out with
u-boot, linux kernel etc. - would be a huge relief.

l.


From richard.wilbur at gmail.com  Thu Jul 18 20:12:30 2019
From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:12:30 -0600
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fixing the fex file once and for all
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDxitD-2yXgZChCP1MXEttfTCnz4Bp=WKy3HDCgSfQ+k-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyvw_WjZULnBpKgRHkVnzMpu4tLtvva5BTp7Vc=fQqCrQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190718104357.3926ad1a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDxitD-2yXgZChCP1MXEttfTCnz4Bp=WKy3HDCgSfQ+k-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC4=CAEyu8O-MOLNfK4Wds6UQ4EFymCmzbVrCFrgWSSDyC1ntA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thursday, July 18, 2019, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>
wrote:
>
>
>  honestly, just other people helping out - *actually* helping out with
> u-boot, linux kernel etc. - would be a huge relief.
>

I've been itching to get involved since I picked up my prototype in England
but waiting (too patiently?  Should I have bothered/reminded you about it
earlier?) for the video how-to you promised to make on how to
non-destructively plug the unenclosed CPU card (without the guides) into
the micro-desktop case.

Would the cable-only setup be a valid way to get started?  Should I expect
the micro HDMI plug to be alive?

I guess the earliest debug output (u-boot?) will likely be on the serial
console available through the EOMA68 connector.

From lkcl at lkcl.net  Fri Jul 19 08:05:04 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:05:04 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fixing the fex file once and for all
In-Reply-To: <CAC4=CAEyu8O-MOLNfK4Wds6UQ4EFymCmzbVrCFrgWSSDyC1ntA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyvw_WjZULnBpKgRHkVnzMpu4tLtvva5BTp7Vc=fQqCrQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190718104357.3926ad1a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDxitD-2yXgZChCP1MXEttfTCnz4Bp=WKy3HDCgSfQ+k-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4=CAEyu8O-MOLNfK4Wds6UQ4EFymCmzbVrCFrgWSSDyC1ntA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDyNQXbXJQGb+vWT2t7z2AG5LPLiNLXebzb=ix=siPy+MQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 8:13 PM Richard Wilbur <richard.wilbur at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, July 18, 2019, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >  honestly, just other people helping out - *actually* helping out with
> > u-boot, linux kernel etc. - would be a huge relief.
> >
>
> I've been itching to get involved since I picked up my prototype in England
> but waiting (too patiently?  Should I have bothered/reminded you about it
> earlier?)

 probably :)

> for the video how-to you promised to make on how to
> non-destructively plug the unenclosed CPU card (without the guides) into
> the micro-desktop case.

 ah, rats.

 ok.  it's fine if you get it wrong as long as it's not powered up.
try it and send me some photos.

 * put MD PCB on a flat surface
 * processor goes face-up
 * push PCB in until it meets pins
 * make sure that the gap amount on each side (left, right) is equal - about 3mm
 * make sure it's about 1mm off the MD PCB
 * make sure it's DEAD level
 * push in GENTLY, making sure that the force applied does not make
the Card PCB "rise up" (be anything other than dead-level)

 if you then inspect into the tunnel, you should see no pins.
actually it's perfectly fine to *deliberately* get it wrong, as long
as you don't apply power.

 send a photo looking into the tunnel, ok?

> Would the cable-only setup be a valid way to get started?

 actually that's a good test - you should see the standard allwinner
USB device with "lsub"

> Should I expect the micro HDMI plug to be alive?

 no, not really.

> I guess the earliest debug output (u-boot?) will likely be on the serial
> console available through the EOMA68 connector.

 yes.  the schematics PDF shows the pinouts.  in the past i've stuffed
serial port wires directly into the PCMCIA header, *and* soldered
direct to a socket (!) - soldering to the MD PCB is a *lot* easier.

l.


From richard.wilbur at gmail.com  Sat Jul 20 06:43:04 2019
From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 23:43:04 -0600
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fixing the fex file once and for all
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDyNQXbXJQGb+vWT2t7z2AG5LPLiNLXebzb=ix=siPy+MQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyvw_WjZULnBpKgRHkVnzMpu4tLtvva5BTp7Vc=fQqCrQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190718104357.3926ad1a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDxitD-2yXgZChCP1MXEttfTCnz4Bp=WKy3HDCgSfQ+k-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4=CAEyu8O-MOLNfK4Wds6UQ4EFymCmzbVrCFrgWSSDyC1ntA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDyNQXbXJQGb+vWT2t7z2AG5LPLiNLXebzb=ix=siPy+MQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC4=CAGS=eCWzYMMMnwF9Qum-4NzoQp+5otv+8yTstDPAbWE2w@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Luke.  Looking forward to following your instructions next week
after I'm back home.  On holiday in a different timezone right now.

From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sat Jul 20 06:44:14 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 06:44:14 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fixing the fex file once and for all
In-Reply-To: <CAC4=CAGS=eCWzYMMMnwF9Qum-4NzoQp+5otv+8yTstDPAbWE2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyvw_WjZULnBpKgRHkVnzMpu4tLtvva5BTp7Vc=fQqCrQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190718104357.3926ad1a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDxitD-2yXgZChCP1MXEttfTCnz4Bp=WKy3HDCgSfQ+k-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4=CAEyu8O-MOLNfK4Wds6UQ4EFymCmzbVrCFrgWSSDyC1ntA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDyNQXbXJQGb+vWT2t7z2AG5LPLiNLXebzb=ix=siPy+MQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4=CAGS=eCWzYMMMnwF9Qum-4NzoQp+5otv+8yTstDPAbWE2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDx4os7VZLnqaX3BJWAG38UEUV=TY_aBxeDQxDXKuviapA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 6:43 AM Richard Wilbur <richard.wilbur at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Luke.  Looking forward to following your instructions next week
> after I'm back home.  On holiday in a different timezone right now.

 cool!


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Mon Jul 22 11:01:12 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 11:01:12 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fixing the fex file once and for all
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDxFQYpqJkXztQzo55B5ieFVzs=dNTev--hwxwKuhRWF5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyvw_WjZULnBpKgRHkVnzMpu4tLtvva5BTp7Vc=fQqCrQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190718104357.3926ad1a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDxitD-2yXgZChCP1MXEttfTCnz4Bp=WKy3HDCgSfQ+k-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4=CAEyu8O-MOLNfK4Wds6UQ4EFymCmzbVrCFrgWSSDyC1ntA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDyNQXbXJQGb+vWT2t7z2AG5LPLiNLXebzb=ix=siPy+MQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4=CAGS=eCWzYMMMnwF9Qum-4NzoQp+5otv+8yTstDPAbWE2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDx4os7VZLnqaX3BJWAG38UEUV=TY_aBxeDQxDXKuviapA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDxFQYpqJkXztQzo55B5ieFVzs=dNTev--hwxwKuhRWF5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDw44qjqE283R1TJXnznGTgw_E7M86+B36A+6dXtk=t4Tw@mail.gmail.com>

trying again:
http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner/a20/micro_desktop_usbuart/


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Mon Jul 22 10:50:24 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:50:24 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fixing the fex file once and for all
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDx4os7VZLnqaX3BJWAG38UEUV=TY_aBxeDQxDXKuviapA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyvw_WjZULnBpKgRHkVnzMpu4tLtvva5BTp7Vc=fQqCrQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190718104357.3926ad1a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDxitD-2yXgZChCP1MXEttfTCnz4Bp=WKy3HDCgSfQ+k-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4=CAEyu8O-MOLNfK4Wds6UQ4EFymCmzbVrCFrgWSSDyC1ntA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDyNQXbXJQGb+vWT2t7z2AG5LPLiNLXebzb=ix=siPy+MQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4=CAGS=eCWzYMMMnwF9Qum-4NzoQp+5otv+8yTstDPAbWE2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDx4os7VZLnqaX3BJWAG38UEUV=TY_aBxeDQxDXKuviapA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDxFQYpqJkXztQzo55B5ieFVzs=dNTev--hwxwKuhRWF5w@mail.gmail.com>

Ok these are the microdesktop with a USBUART attached, you should be able
to zoom in and see tx rx on the UART PCB.

You will find quite often that you get a ground loop between the main DC
PSU and a laptop's PSU which is often not earthed, over the USB, through
the USBUART, to the MD PCB that will, on powerup of the MD, cause the
USBUART to either generate random data, or cause it to spike and lock up
entirely, or in some cases of extremely cheap FT232 USBUARTs, cause them
permanent irrevocable damage.

This is just how it is.

I buy lots of them, and in cases where difficulties occur unplug them
before powerup. Of course, uboot needs to then be configured not to
autostart too fast, and also you miss the very early uboot-spl debug
messages, ho hum.

You need a 5.5mm jack with a 2.1mm centre hole, middle is +ve (aka "pin
positive").

Anywhere between 7 and 21v is fine, minimum 1A, 1 5A is better. One of
those multi power thingies is fine (5 7.5 9 12v you know the ones I mean,
get them at RadioShack... or at least you used to), just make absolutely
sure outer is -ve and inner (pin) is -ve.

You almost certainly have a random 12VDC PSU somewhere in the house
already, for a toy, a charger, or many 12 VGA monitors use a 5.5mm jack,
it's an extremely common standard, can take up to around 4 to 5A no problem.

If you have a multimeter for goodness sake use it.

The Card can be powered up whilst attached to USB OTG however although
power gets through the PCMCIA connector there is a SY6280 current control
IC set at 1A which acts as a diode in this case.  You MUST therefore power
the PCB from the DC Jack in order for the USBUART to work.

DO NOT wire up the 3.3v supply to the USB UART. ONLY solder on 3 wires: GND
TX RX. Those work by sinking current to GND and are otherwise floating, I
believe.

However they *may* be tied to 3.3v pullups actually on the USBUART and I
have had this be sufficient in some cases to actually power parts of the
A20 processor (!!) even when otherwise fully powered down.

L.



-- 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
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From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com  Mon Jul 22 15:24:27 2019
From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:24:27 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fixing the fex file once and for all
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDxFQYpqJkXztQzo55B5ieFVzs=dNTev--hwxwKuhRWF5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyvw_WjZULnBpKgRHkVnzMpu4tLtvva5BTp7Vc=fQqCrQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190718104357.3926ad1a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDxitD-2yXgZChCP1MXEttfTCnz4Bp=WKy3HDCgSfQ+k-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4=CAEyu8O-MOLNfK4Wds6UQ4EFymCmzbVrCFrgWSSDyC1ntA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDyNQXbXJQGb+vWT2t7z2AG5LPLiNLXebzb=ix=siPy+MQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4=CAGS=eCWzYMMMnwF9Qum-4NzoQp+5otv+8yTstDPAbWE2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDx4os7VZLnqaX3BJWAG38UEUV=TY_aBxeDQxDXKuviapA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDxFQYpqJkXztQzo55B5ieFVzs=dNTev--hwxwKuhRWF5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190722142426.ohxh2phtmgs7mjfx@topoi.pooq.com>

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 10:50:24AM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> Ok these are the microdesktop with a USBUART attached, you should be able
> to zoom in and see tx rx on the UART PCB.
> 
> You will find quite often that you get a ground loop between the main DC
> PSU and a laptop's PSU which is often not earthed, over the USB, through
> the USBUART, to the MD PCB that will, on powerup of the MD, cause the
> USBUART to either generate random data, or cause it to spike and lock up
> entirely, or in some cases of extremely cheap FT232 USBUARTs, cause them
> permanent irrevocable damage.
> 
> This is just how it is.
> 
> I buy lots of them, and in cases where difficulties occur unplug them
> before powerup. Of course, uboot needs to then be configured not to
> autostart too fast, and also you miss the very early uboot-spl debug
> messages, ho hum.
> 
> You need a 5.5mm jack with a 2.1mm centre hole, middle is +ve (aka "pin
> positive").
> 
> Anywhere between 7 and 21v is fine, minimum 1A, 1 5A is better. One of
> those multi power thingies is fine (5 7.5 9 12v you know the ones I mean,
> get them at RadioShack... or at least you used to), just make absolutely
> sure outer is -ve and inner (pin) is -ve.

Presumably one of these "-ve"s should be "+ve".

-- hendrik

> 
> You almost certainly have a random 12VDC PSU somewhere in the house
> already, for a toy, a charger, or many 12 VGA monitors use a 5.5mm jack,
> it's an extremely common standard, can take up to around 4 to 5A no problem.
> 
> If you have a multimeter for goodness sake use it.
> 
> The Card can be powered up whilst attached to USB OTG however although
> power gets through the PCMCIA connector there is a SY6280 current control
> IC set at 1A which acts as a diode in this case.  You MUST therefore power
> the PCB from the DC Jack in order for the USBUART to work.
> 
> DO NOT wire up the 3.3v supply to the USB UART. ONLY solder on 3 wires: GND
> TX RX. Those work by sinking current to GND and are otherwise floating, I
> believe.
> 
> However they *may* be tied to 3.3v pullups actually on the USBUART and I
> have had this be sufficient in some cases to actually power parts of the
> A20 processor (!!) even when otherwise fully powered down.
> 
> L.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68





> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk



From lkcl at lkcl.net  Mon Jul 22 16:36:09 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 16:36:09 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fixing the fex file once and for all
In-Reply-To: <20190722142426.ohxh2phtmgs7mjfx@topoi.pooq.com>
References: <20190717232727.6ae2c12e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDyvw_WjZULnBpKgRHkVnzMpu4tLtvva5BTp7Vc=fQqCrQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190718104357.3926ad1a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDxitD-2yXgZChCP1MXEttfTCnz4Bp=WKy3HDCgSfQ+k-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4=CAEyu8O-MOLNfK4Wds6UQ4EFymCmzbVrCFrgWSSDyC1ntA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDyNQXbXJQGb+vWT2t7z2AG5LPLiNLXebzb=ix=siPy+MQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAC4=CAGS=eCWzYMMMnwF9Qum-4NzoQp+5otv+8yTstDPAbWE2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDx4os7VZLnqaX3BJWAG38UEUV=TY_aBxeDQxDXKuviapA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDxFQYpqJkXztQzo55B5ieFVzs=dNTev--hwxwKuhRWF5w@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190722142426.ohxh2phtmgs7mjfx@topoi.pooq.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDxSRJUQHqn_qFjT+J-DLzeCB_d-be3tSeFqE44OU20tDg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 3:24 PM Hendrik Boom <hendrik at topoi.pooq.com> wrote:


^^^
} } You need a 5.5mm jack with a 2.1mm centre hole, middle is +ve (aka "pin
} } positive").
 ^^^^

> Presumably one of these "-ve"s should be "+ve".

thx.