From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 1 11:57:48 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 11:57:48 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM 2018 schedule Message-ID: http://rhombus-tech.net/fosdem.2018.schedule/ ... is insane. i am simply not used to this level of detailed planning! so i figured what the heck, just publish it online. then if i mess it up at least there's a chance someone will notice and tell me. also if i can't get internet connectivity i can ask a stranger if i can borrow their phone.... :) l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 1 16:15:58 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 16:15:58 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [FOSDEM standholders] Booth helper wanted In-Reply-To: <0caeb91d-28eb-7c49-3efd-78c86365ac32@vikings.net> References: <0caeb91d-28eb-7c49-3efd-78c86365ac32@vikings.net> Message-ID: hi if anyone is at fosdem and can help thomas or me on saturday priority, just sitting and going um i know nothing have a leaflet at least thomas or i can get lunch breaks, sunday is 2nd priority sorry phone typing email thum at vikings.net direct more people better even if 1 hr or even 30m ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Thomas Umbach* Date: Thursday, February 1, 2018 Subject: [FOSDEM standholders] Booth helper wanted To: standholders at lists.fosdem.org Hi all, My booth partner became severely ill and isn't able to help at the Vikings booth this weekend. Do you, as a representative of you project/company at FOSDEM, know someone who can spare a couple of hours on Saturday and/or Sunday? There are no real requirements aside from being friendly (an understanding of the basic concept of free software would help though). Thanks a lot for any help in advance! -- Best regards/Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Cordialement/Met vriendelijke groet Thomas Umbach Web: https://www.vikings.net/ Phone: +49 6196 202 82 0 Fax: +49 6196 202 82 99 Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/vikingslibre Follow us on GNUsocial: https://quitter.se/vikings Vikings GmbH Mergenthalerallee 10-12, 65760 Eschborn, Germany Register Court: AG Frankfurt am Main Register No.: HR B 84497, CEO: Thomas Umbach Tax Office: Frankfurt am Main, VATIN: DE254094338 FD5E 2543 EE62 7395 00A6 9FBB F228 7A48 7CA2 3FA5 * Meet us at FOSDEM in Brussels / 3th & 4th of February 2018 https://fosdem.org/ -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Thu Feb 1 20:55:36 2018 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:55:36 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] RAM Options for EOMA68-A20 Message-ID: <44195518-f394-3ba4-96ea-f1f72eed15d5@FineArtMarquetry.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Just read the update and saw the question of known to work EOL component or possibly uncertain newer version. If needed, is there a possibility of getting Crowd Supply to close down refunds for second batch, release that money, and use it to purchase components for the complete set of orders and a few extras for future orders. Then consider the A20 done, and move on to the next EOMA68 that won't be dealing with the same component issues. I think I recall you having a first working prototype of the newer card, in which case this could probably work. Tor - -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQr4UJuNOrSU9WDneS4ZgN1E0tI+wUCWnN+vQAKCRC4ZgN1E0tI +7f4AJ0Su2YM4yRJAlmeCC6dj01DZuFoEQCfXcJls7hcncNjWzAQBfRYv6+oBaA= =bxv5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pablo at parobalth.org Fri Feb 2 10:25:23 2018 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo Rath) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:25:23 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Typo in Update: FOSDEM 2018, Shakti Project Tape-out Nearly Done, 2.7.5 EOMA68-A20 PCBs Message-ID: <20180202102523.GA1862@avocado> Hi, in the latest update from Februar 1st there is an obvious typo in the markup resulting in one link rendered wrong. It starts with "The [Shakti Team]]" and I think it is one closing square bracket too much. Thank you, Luke for the interesting update and good luck with all the talks and FOSDEM. On Liberapay we made you the second highest funded individual person! :) kind regards Pablo From calmstorm at posteo.de Fri Feb 2 11:58:27 2018 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 06:58:27 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Typo in Update: FOSDEM 2018, Shakti Project Tape-out Nearly Done, 2.7.5 EOMA68-A20 PCBs In-Reply-To: <20180202102523.GA1862@avocado> References: <20180202102523.GA1862@avocado> Message-ID: <02f9f284-737b-5d1c-d5f1-8f852c1afc47@posteo.de> On 02/02/2018 05:25 AM, Pablo Rath wrote: > Hi, > in the latest update from Februar 1st there is an obvious typo in the > markup resulting in one link rendered wrong. > It starts with "The [Shakti Team]]" and I think it is one closing square > bracket too much. > > Thank you, Luke for the interesting update and good luck with all the > talks and FOSDEM. > On Liberapay we made you the second highest funded individual person! :) Wow, That is shocking. I am curious to see how much he is being funded. :) > > kind regards > Pablo > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From calmstorm at posteo.de Fri Feb 2 12:11:01 2018 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 07:11:01 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I find this all strange, but good Message-ID: <4cbb0a99-6eef-04df-3f6f-8360ede6bd5a@posteo.de> 2.5 watts for a quad core processor or even octacore... That sounds just plain absurd. But yeah, with less crap inside of it... it makes some sense I suppose. Shakti processors are going to be awesome. By the way Luke, I look forward to seeing your devices, and I wish you the best. You are now receiving it least for now, 94 euros a week. Pretty awesome right? And that doesn't even begin to cover the sheer awesomeness of 250k you will be getting right? I am glad someone is helping you in a way that I only dream of helping you. Your products will one day be super awesome. Mostly because of the Shakti. But even now they intrigue me. :) From rhkramer at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 15:05:50 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 10:05:50 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201802021005.50850.rhkramer@gmail.com> On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:46:37 PM Alexander Ross wrote: > http://rhombus-tech.aross.me/webpagealt/ ... > I combined to logos people made and also made some little mods of my > own. i feel quite happy with the outcome :) feedback good to hear, what > ya would like to do , how ya feel.. I'd just like to point out that I, and perhaps other people (and still some systems) have a problem with light text on a darker background. It might just be my eyes, and I can usually overcome it by selecting the text in question, which makes it then appear as a dark text on a light background. There was, and probably still is one or more real bugs that cause the problem. I'll try to describe it, in my layman's terms. It has to do with the function that changes the intensity of pixels to make characters look "smoother". I guess there are several instances of a function like that, in different places. The problem is that, in at least some of those, there was a built-in bias (my choice of words--it wasn't an explicit fudge factor or such) such that when dark text is rendered on a lighter background, the function works correctly (or reasonably well), while when the function is applied to light text on a darker background, the function bias tends to make more pixels match the background, thus the strokes of the character look thinner (and are thinner, because more pixels match the background or closer to the background) than to the color of the text. I'm not even sure where those kind of functions are applied--I guess it is in the client computer (the computer ultimately displaying the text for the user), and there may be more than one such function on any give client computer (for rendering from different apps). Maybe the problem is in X, and maybe it has been fixed there (or in it's successor, which I can't remember the name of). Anyway, just wanted to point that out for your consideration. I've tried staring at your page, with the text selected and not selected and I definitely have trouble reading it unselected (i.e., light text on dark background), but I can't decide whether is it just my eyes or not (I've read dark text on light backgrounds a lot). From pelzflorian at pelzflorian.de Fri Feb 2 16:42:16 2018 From: pelzflorian at pelzflorian.de (pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 17:42:16 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <201802021005.50850.rhkramer@gmail.com> References: <201802021005.50850.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180202164216.uvak7whwiof6ixim@floriannotebook> On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 10:05:50AM -0500, rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:46:37 PM Alexander Ross wrote: > > http://rhombus-tech.aross.me/webpagealt/ > > ... > > > I combined to logos people made and also made some little mods of my > > own. i feel quite happy with the outcome :) feedback good to hear, what > > ya would like to do , how ya feel.. > > I'd just like to point out that I, and perhaps other people (and still some > systems) have a problem with light text on a darker background. > > […] If you are using GNOME, try fixing the font settings in gnome-tweak-tool (subpixel rendering etc.). Either way, others recommend dark text on light background as well: https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/53264/dark-or-white-color-theme-is-better-for-the-eyes# Regards, Florian From rhkramer at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 17:29:37 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 12:29:37 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <20180202164216.uvak7whwiof6ixim@floriannotebook> References: <201802021005.50850.rhkramer@gmail.com> <20180202164216.uvak7whwiof6ixim@floriannotebook> Message-ID: <201802021229.37861.rhkramer@gmail.com> On Friday, February 02, 2018 11:42:16 AM pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote: > On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 10:05:50AM -0500, rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > > I'd just like to point out that I, and perhaps other people (and still > > some systems) have a problem with light text on a darker background. > > > > […] > > If you are using GNOME, try fixing the font settings in > gnome-tweak-tool (subpixel rendering etc.). Florian, Thanks! (I use kde.) > Either way, others > recommend dark text on light background as well: > > https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/53264/dark-or-white-color-theme-is-b > etter-for-the-eyes# Thanks also for that--interesting points that I didn't consider (still supporting dark text on light background), and, I do have astigmatism, which is probably a factor as well. From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Fri Feb 2 18:10:57 2018 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 18:10:57 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <201802021005.50850.rhkramer@gmail.com> References: <201802021005.50850.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 02/02/18 15:05, rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:46:37 PM Alexander Ross wrote: >> http://rhombus-tech.aross.me/webpagealt/ > > ... > >> I combined to logos people made and also made some little mods of my >> own. i feel quite happy with the outcome :) feedback good to hear, what >> ya would like to do , how ya feel.. > > I'd just like to point out that I, and perhaps other people (and still some > systems) have a problem with light text on a darker background. Re Logo, hmm idk what to do. might i try a darker yellow or something... hmm Re Webpage background, heh yea im the opposite, i find it harder to read a white/light background. saying that my email client is set to use light blue... lately ive been using owl firefox addon[1] for changing websites themes to a dark one. found it to give me relief from eye strain :). I agree the blue text colour has been on my mind, not sure what to change it too. hmm when i feel like it ill have a play with different colour schemes. Maybe it should be a status quo classic light back dark text colour scheme which people like me use addons to invert the colours. i found it fun to think: "bold project, bold colour scheme". hehe but ok, ill try and balance peoples needs. hmm hmm interesting to see how owl addon inverts the colours. it uses a light pink for background! looks not too bad... hmmm [1]http://owl.sidhant.io/ firefox addon From rhkramer at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 19:34:17 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 14:34:17 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: References: <201802021005.50850.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201802021434.17257.rhkramer@gmail.com> On Friday, February 02, 2018 01:10:57 PM Alexander Ross wrote: > On 02/02/18 15:05, rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:46:37 PM Alexander Ross wrote: > >> http://rhombus-tech.aross.me/webpagealt/ > > > > ... > > > >> I combined to logos people made and also made some little mods of my > >> own. i feel quite happy with the outcome :) feedback good to hear, what > >> ya would like to do , how ya feel.. > > > > I'd just like to point out that I, and perhaps other people (and still > > some systems) have a problem with light text on a darker background. > > Re Logo, hmm idk what to do. might i try a darker yellow or something... > hmm > > Re Webpage background, heh yea im the opposite, i find it harder to read > a white/light background. saying that my email client is set to use > light blue... lately ive been using owl firefox addon[1] for changing > websites themes to a dark one. found it to give me relief from eye > strain :). > > I agree the blue text colour has been on my mind, not sure what to > change it too. hmm when i feel like it ill have a play with different > colour schemes. > > Maybe it should be a status quo classic light back dark text colour > scheme which people like me use addons to invert the colours. i found it > fun to think: "bold project, bold colour scheme". hehe but ok, ill try > and balance peoples needs. Thanks! I do find that a non-white background is easier on my eyes than pure white--I've used various shades of beige, yellow, and rose to good effect-- still with black text. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 23:04:33 2018 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 01:04:33 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I find this all strange, but good In-Reply-To: <4cbb0a99-6eef-04df-3f6f-8360ede6bd5a@posteo.de> References: <4cbb0a99-6eef-04df-3f6f-8360ede6bd5a@posteo.de> Message-ID: What happened? Did I miss something? Where did that 250k come from? On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 2:11 PM, zap wrote: > 2.5 watts for a quad core processor or even octacore... That sounds just > plain absurd. But yeah, with less crap inside of it... it makes some > sense I suppose. Shakti processors are going to be awesome. > > By the way Luke, I look forward to seeing your devices, and I wish you > the best. > > You are now receiving it least for now, 94 euros a week. Pretty awesome > right? And that doesn't even begin to cover the sheer awesomeness of > 250k you will be getting right? > > I am glad someone is helping you in a way that I only dream of helping you. > > Your products will one day be super awesome. Mostly because of the > Shakti. But even now they intrigue me. :) > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Fri Feb 2 23:11:47 2018 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 13:11:47 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I find this all strange, but good In-Reply-To: References: <4cbb0a99-6eef-04df-3f6f-8360ede6bd5a@posteo.de> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/02/2018 01:04 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > What happened? Did I miss something? Where did that 250k come from? > A sponsorship Luke mentioned in the latest Crowd Supply update. Congratulations, Luke! - -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQr4UJuNOrSU9WDneS4ZgN1E0tI+wUCWnTwJwAKCRC4ZgN1E0tI +z6rAJ9OLiotDpVijO6dqwUTdCjn5HbFmQCeLz8zg3wEbbN3AoyPkJxuCH3hdlI= =yLH0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Sat Feb 3 02:30:10 2018 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 21:30:10 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: References: <201802021005.50850.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180203023010.GA6247@topoi.pooq.com> On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 06:10:57PM +0000, Alexander Ross wrote: > On 02/02/18 15:05, rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:46:37 PM Alexander Ross wrote: > >> http://rhombus-tech.aross.me/webpagealt/ > > > > ... > > > >> I combined to logos people made and also made some little mods of my > >> own. i feel quite happy with the outcome :) feedback good to hear, what > >> ya would like to do , how ya feel.. > > > > I'd just like to point out that I, and perhaps other people (and still some > > systems) have a problem with light text on a darker background. > > > Re Logo, hmm idk what to do. might i try a darker yellow or something... hmm > > Re Webpage background, heh yea im the opposite, i find it harder to read > a white/light background. saying that my email client is set to use > light blue... lately ive been using owl firefox addon[1] for changing > websites themes to a dark one. found it to give me relief from eye > strain :). I prefer light text on a dark background. Especially at night, when the screen otherwise becomes glaringly bright. It also reduces flicker on slow-refresh monitors. And as for the letter-thinning you experience with white text -- that's exactly what I perceive with white text! I think it is an effect of slight lack of focus. with a bright background it eaats into the letter shapes, but if the shapes become a little blurry they are still quie readable. I son't understand how the opposite effect which you report arises. -- hendrik From calmstorm at posteo.de Sat Feb 3 04:47:08 2018 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 23:47:08 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook: I just was reading some old logs, Message-ID: <7c5d9b7b-5500-54fc-1d24-a86ae2cc5d53@posteo.de> and I wondered, whenever the eoma68 standard libre laptop is released, I recall you saying the 4.9 kernel doesn't give 100% functionality, I just wondered two things: One, how much % of functionality would work, and how much wouldn't work Two, could it be loaded temporarily until I add a new kernel (if I went down the devuan route especially) I only ask for this info because of curiosity.  That's all. I mean, would I notice anything happen that's major or would it be something minor to me such as hdmi... just curious. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 07:00:21 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 02:00:21 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook: I just was reading some old logs, Message-ID: http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2017-February/012942.html http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2013-June/thread.html#7620 These are the relevant threads and emails that I found. Ultimately there are just unidentified broken drivers and it would just take an unpredictable amount of effort to even determine which ones. All necessary drivers and firmware are present, only some function and/or variable names were likely changed somewhere down the line which weren't properly updated for all drivers. I'm sure this type of thing is fairly common. Disclaimer: not a programmer; likely very incorrect. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 05:45:44 +0000 Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] systemd and kernel: 3.4, mainline To: Linux on small ARM machines On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 5:33 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> And now I hear that A20 card will be shipped with kernel 3.4. Sure, it's >> not lower than 3.2 but how long will glibc support 3.4? What about other >> packages? > > Actually, mainline support for A20 isn't that bad, depending on your > specific use case. > Check http://linux-sunxi.org/Linux_mainlining_effort. It's fairly good > for headless servers, less so for tablets and desktops. And there is > (slow) progress, so its future isn't too bleak. yeahhh, it's the lack of desktop support that's the main concern. i'd like to be able to say that it will be possible to fund the mainlining support but it isn't, right now. also, as i mentioned earlier, the A20's running out of time. i'm going to have to ship with only an older toshipba 1MB or even just a 128kb NAND flash because it's getting harder and harder to find so-called "legacy" NAND flash ICs in TSSOP packaging that the A20's brain-dead boot ROM recognises. so now you may gain some understanding why the RK3288 board is so important. (a) it's got full mainline support (b) it's just as libre as the A20 Card (c) it has mass-volume support (d) it's had a chromebook and more made around it (e) it's been around long enough to have all the problems ironed out (f) the technical reference manuals are now online (g) it's possible to get Reference Designs for $USD 25. that DOES NOT mean that the A20 board is not important: it is critical at this early phase. l. _______________________________________________ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From rhkramer at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 14:02:10 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 09:02:10 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <20180203023010.GA6247@topoi.pooq.com> References: <20180203023010.GA6247@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> On Friday, February 02, 2018 09:30:10 PM Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 06:10:57PM +0000, Alexander Ross wrote: > > Re Webpage background, heh yea im the opposite, i find it harder to read > > a white/light background. saying that my email client is set to use > > light blue... lately ive been using owl firefox addon[1] for changing > > websites themes to a dark one. found it to give me relief from eye > > strain :). > > I prefer light text on a dark background. Especially at night, when the > screen otherwise becomes glaringly bright. It also reduces flicker on > slow-refresh monitors. > > And as for the letter-thinning you experience with white text -- that's > exactly what I perceive with white text! I think it is an effect of > slight lack of focus. with a bright background it eaats into the letter > shapes, but if the shapes become a little blurry they are still quie > readable. > > I son't understand how the opposite effect which you report arises. I guess you mean why I see that thinning effect with light text on a dark background? Interesting. I guess it could be: * our eyes trained differently * our eyes function differently--I have astigmatism, but it is corrected by my glasses so I don't think that is a factor * different tools on our computers render the fonts differently? (I'm not sure I know what, in the end, actually renders the fonts on my computer--is it X (assuming my Wheezy installation is using X), or is it different for different apps? I did find a bug report not too long ago for some application which actually confirmed the bias I described, and described how that worked (in general terms)--I'll make a cursory search or try to remember where I found that, and, if I do, I'll post it here. Of course, the one URL which Florian posted did provide some reasons why dark text on a light background is generallly better for your eyes (iirc the article). https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/53264/dark-or-white-color-theme-is- better-for-the-eyes# From rhkramer at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 14:14:45 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 09:14:45 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> References: <20180203023010.GA6247@topoi.pooq.com> <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201802030914.45482.rhkramer@gmail.com> On Saturday, February 03, 2018 09:02:10 AM rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > I did find a bug report not too long ago for some application which > actually confirmed the bias I described, and described how that worked (in > general terms)--I'll make a cursory search or try to remember where I > found that, and, if I do, I'll post it here. Ahh, that was easier than I expected--here are my notes after reading that bug report (some time ago)--I did not re-read it today to see if anything has changed. The comments immediately after the [[][]] are my own, the things after the ` are quotations from the bug report. * [[https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13431][Bug 13431: Summary: Gamma not taken into account, white on black hard to read]]--this confirms my observation of the problem, but my explanation (iirc) predates gamma correction (iir/uc)--my theory of the cause of the problem is that anti- aliasing sort of "assumed" that the normal view would be black on white, when it was applied to white on black, it should have somehow considered the other "color" (black or white) to be the basis--because it didn't, fewer pixels are colored white when viewing white on black as opposed to the number of pixels colored black when viewing black on white. I don't know if the problem still exists--it probably does in at least some places, and, I still have more difficulty reading white (or a light color) on a black (or dark background). ` When doing antialiasing, fontconfig-based renderers do not take gamma into account and assume a linear color space. This make black on white text difficult to read at small font sizez. ... The reason is that the stems of the glyphs are thinner than a whole pixel. Therefore, they get a fractionnal value. For example, the pixels on the lower part of the stem of the 'f' get the pixel value 151/255 in black on white, and 104/255 in white on black (and 104+151=255). With the usual 2.2 gamma, this makes respectively 32% and 14%, which gives a contrast of 68% for black on white, and 14% for white on black. ' From calmstorm at posteo.de Sat Feb 3 15:40:50 2018 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 10:40:50 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook: I just was reading some old logs, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > yeahhh, it's the lack of desktop support that's the main concern. > i'd like to be able to say that it will be possible to fund the > mainlining support but it isn't, right now. > > also, as i mentioned earlier, the A20's running out of time. i'm > going to have to ship with only an older toshipba 1MB or even just a > 128kb NAND flash because it's getting harder and harder to find > so-called "legacy" NAND flash ICs in TSSOP packaging that the A20's > brain-dead boot ROM recognises. > > so now you may gain some understanding why the RK3288 board is so important. > > (a) it's got full mainline support > (b) it's just as libre as the A20 Card > (c) it has mass-volume support > (d) it's had a chromebook and more made around it > (e) it's been around long enough to have all the problems ironed out > (f) the technical reference manuals are now online > (g) it's possible to get Reference Designs for $USD 25. > > that DOES NOT mean that the A20 board is not important: it is critical > at this early phase. > > l. Thanks for the insight now I have a good idea what is going on... I look forward to the RK3288. I highly recommend you get the reference designs then. :) though I am curious, this is also your email? > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From rhkramer at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 15:51:45 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 10:51:45 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <201802030914.45482.rhkramer@gmail.com> References: <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> <201802030914.45482.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201802031051.45055.rhkramer@gmail.com> Ahh, I intend that this be my last post on the subject, because it is pretty much OT for this list, but I re-read the bug report and saw a paragraph that was there before, but seems to have sunk in now: ` Fontconfig has nothing to do with presenting the glyphs to the user, it simply selects the fonts. The bug you are seeing (and, yes, I agree that it is a bug even if white text on a black background is wrong) is due to limitations in various rendering libraries, like Xrender, cairo et al. ' On Saturday, February 03, 2018 09:14:45 AM rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > On Saturday, February 03, 2018 09:02:10 AM rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > > I did find a bug report not too long ago for some application which > > actually confirmed the bias I described, and described how that worked > > (in general terms)--I'll make a cursory search or try to remember where > > I found that, and, if I do, I'll post it here. > > Ahh, that was easier than I expected--here are my notes after reading that > bug report (some time ago)--I did not re-read it today to see if anything > has changed. The comments immediately after the [[][]] > are my own, the things after the ` are quotations from the bug report. > > * [[https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13431][Bug 13431: > Summary: Gamma not taken into account, white on black hard to read]]--this > confirms my observation of the problem, but my explanation (iirc) predates > gamma correction (iir/uc)--my theory of the cause of the problem is that > anti- aliasing sort of "assumed" that the normal view would be black on > white, when it was applied to white on black, it should have somehow > considered the other "color" (black or white) to be the basis--because it > didn't, fewer pixels are colored white when viewing white on black as > opposed to the number of pixels colored black when viewing black on white. > I don't know if the problem still exists--it probably does in at least > some places, and, I still have more difficulty reading white (or a light > color) on a black (or dark background). ` > When doing antialiasing, fontconfig-based renderers do not take gamma into > account and assume a linear color space. This make black on white text > difficult to read at small font sizez. > > ... > > The reason is that the stems of the glyphs are thinner than a whole pixel. > Therefore, they get a fractionnal value. For example, the pixels on the > lower part of the stem of the 'f' get the pixel value 151/255 in black on > white, and 104/255 in white on black (and 104+151=255). With the usual 2.2 > gamma, this makes respectively 32% and 14%, which gives a contrast of 68% > for black on white, and 14% for white on black. > ' From pelzflorian at pelzflorian.de Sat Feb 3 16:10:06 2018 From: pelzflorian at pelzflorian.de (pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 17:10:06 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> References: <20180203023010.GA6247@topoi.pooq.com> <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180203161006.hc6wuty2f5rvjjdc@floriannotebook> On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 09:02:10AM -0500, rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > I guess it could be: > * our eyes trained differently > * our eyes function differently--I have astigmatism, but it is corrected by > my glasses so I don't think that is a factor > * different tools on our computers render the fonts differently? (I'm not > sure I know what, in the end, actually renders the fonts on my computer--is it > X (assuming my Wheezy installation is using X), or is it different for different > apps? > X is only used for font rendering in old applications like xterm. Modern applications on GNU operating systems use HarfBuzz. If yours is a technical issue, it is either your screen settings (brightness/contrast), font settings (like antialiasing, subpixel rendering) or really a bug in font rendering. That said, I set my desktop to use larger than default fonts so I don’t have issues. I believe websites should use either default colors or custom colored dark on light text like most websites. Those who don’t like it can override the stylesheet colors like they have to do for most websites, i.e. https://superuser.com/questions/318912/how-to-override-the-css-of-a-site-in-firefox-with-usercontent-css From rhkramer at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 18:23:58 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 13:23:58 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <20180203161006.hc6wuty2f5rvjjdc@floriannotebook> References: <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> <20180203161006.hc6wuty2f5rvjjdc@floriannotebook> Message-ID: <201802031323.58575.rhkramer@gmail.com> On Saturday, February 03, 2018 11:10:06 AM pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote: > On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 09:02:10AM -0500, rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > > I guess it could be: > > * our eyes trained differently > > * our eyes function differently--I have astigmatism, but it is > > corrected by > > > > my glasses so I don't think that is a factor > > > > * different tools on our computers render the fonts differently? (I'm > > not > > > > sure I know what, in the end, actually renders the fonts on my > > computer--is it X (assuming my Wheezy installation is using X), or is it > > different for different apps? > > X is only used for font rendering in old applications like xterm. > Modern applications on GNU operating systems use HarfBuzz. I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but I'm interested--I tried ps -Al } grep HarfBuzz (and harfbuzz) on my Debian Wheezy system with kde--no sign of it--does KDE use something else? From rhkramer at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 18:31:28 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 13:31:28 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <201802031323.58575.rhkramer@gmail.com> References: <20180203161006.hc6wuty2f5rvjjdc@floriannotebook> <201802031323.58575.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201802031331.28981.rhkramer@gmail.com> On Saturday, February 03, 2018 01:23:58 PM rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but I'm interested--I tried ps -Al } > grep HarfBuzz (and harfbuzz) on my Debian Wheezy system with kde--no sign > of it--does KDE use something else? Oh, now I see--from Wikipedia: ` Most applications don't use HarfBuzz directly, but use a UI toolkit library that integrates with it. HarfBuzz is used by the UI libraries of GNOME, KDE, Chrome OS, Android[2] and Java;[6] and directly by applications Firefox, LibreOffice and Inkscape.[2] ' From pelzflorian at pelzflorian.de Sat Feb 3 18:32:37 2018 From: pelzflorian at pelzflorian.de (pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 19:32:37 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <201802031323.58575.rhkramer@gmail.com> References: <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> <20180203161006.hc6wuty2f5rvjjdc@floriannotebook> <201802031323.58575.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180203183237.vn2rhsrhj3kk6jew@floriannotebook> On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 01:23:58PM -0500, rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > On Saturday, February 03, 2018 11:10:06 AM pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 09:02:10AM -0500, rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > > > I guess it could be: > > > * our eyes trained differently > > > * our eyes function differently--I have astigmatism, but it is > > > corrected by > > > > > > my glasses so I don't think that is a factor > > > > > > * different tools on our computers render the fonts differently? (I'm > > > not > > > > > > sure I know what, in the end, actually renders the fonts on my > > > computer--is it X (assuming my Wheezy installation is using X), or is it > > > different for different apps? > > > > X is only used for font rendering in old applications like xterm. > > Modern applications on GNU operating systems use HarfBuzz. > > I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but I'm interested--I tried ps -Al } > grep HarfBuzz (and harfbuzz) on my Debian Wheezy system with kde--no sign of > it--does KDE use something else? > KDE uses Qt which uses HarfBuzz. You can see it in the dependencies at https://packages.debian.org/sid/libqt5gui5 However HarfBuzz is not a separate process but runs as part of the graphical application (it is a library), so you do not see it in ps -Al. From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Sat Feb 3 18:48:52 2018 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 18:48:52 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Talk Download: Fosdem.2018 Component.Sourcing.for.Design.and.Manufacturing.in.Shenzhen.LiveStream Message-ID: <6a9b9f34-1b11-698e-a75a-d319abcdc655@aross.me> saved the live stream for the room, exacted lukes Saturday talk out from it: download thanks to http://onionshare.org/ over tor network: http://e5gxitu3qixdxlvk.onion/dazzling-liver tor browser can be used to download or diy cl downloader From cyrozap at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 22:26:16 2018 From: cyrozap at gmail.com (Forest Crossman) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 16:26:16 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Allwinner VPU kernel driver crowdfunding campaign Message-ID: I'm suprised this hasn't been posted here yet, considering its relevance to this project: https://bootlin.com/blog/allwinner-vpu-crowdfunding/ The engineers at Bootlin (formerly Free Electrons) are running a crowdfunding campaign to complete the upstream kernel support for the CedarX Video Processing Unit (Allwinner hardware video decoder/encoder). If you're not familiar with Bootlin, they're the ones responsible for a lot of the other mainlining work that's already been done for Alwinner SoCs, so they have experience getting patches integrated upstream and with kernel development in general. They've already reached their funding goal--which includes support for MPEG-2, MPEG-4 part 2/H.263, and MPEG-4 part 10/H.264/AVC decoding on the A20 SoC--but they have a few stretch goals that include support for newer Allwinner SoCs, HEVC/H.265 decoding, and H.264 encoding. Anyways, if any of you want to help fund the development of Free Software, this looks like a pretty good opportunity to do so! For more information, see the Kickstarter campaign here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bootlin/allwinner-vpu-support-in-the-official-linux-kernel From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 02:36:00 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 21:36:00 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook: I just was reading some old logs, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That was an old email I found searching my inbox rather than "site:https://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/". Didn't mean any confusion by forwarding it instead of quoting it. From rhkramer at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 04:33:07 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 23:33:07 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <20180203183237.vn2rhsrhj3kk6jew@floriannotebook> References: <201802031323.58575.rhkramer@gmail.com> <20180203183237.vn2rhsrhj3kk6jew@floriannotebook> Message-ID: <201802032333.07498.rhkramer@gmail.com> On Saturday, February 03, 2018 01:32:37 PM pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote: > On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 01:23:58PM -0500, rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > > I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but I'm interested--I tried ps -Al > > } grep HarfBuzz (and harfbuzz) on my Debian Wheezy system with kde--no > > sign of it--does KDE use something else? > > KDE uses Qt which uses HarfBuzz. You can see it in the dependencies at > > https://packages.debian.org/sid/libqt5gui5 > > However HarfBuzz is not a separate process but runs as part of the > graphical application (it is a library), so you do not see it in > ps -Al. Thanks! (Subsequently I looked up HarfBuzz on Wikipedia and got a little better understanding.) From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 04:38:12 2018 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 22:38:12 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Talk Download: Fosdem.2018 Component.Sourcing.for.Design.and.Manufacturing.in.Shenzhen.LiveStream In-Reply-To: <6a9b9f34-1b11-698e-a75a-d319abcdc655@aross.me> References: <6a9b9f34-1b11-698e-a75a-d319abcdc655@aross.me> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Alexander Ross < maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me> wrote: > saved the live stream for the room, exacted lukes Saturday talk out from > it: > download thanks to http://onionshare.org/ over tor network: > http://e5gxitu3qixdxlvk.onion/dazzling-liver > > tor browser can be used to download or diy cl downloader > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk Anybody have a link for those of us who do not have tor browser installed? I'd like to watch it but would rather not install tor browser. From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 05:04:12 2018 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 23:04:12 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Talk Download: Fosdem.2018 Component.Sourcing.for.Design.and.Manufacturing.in.Shenzhen.LiveStream In-Reply-To: References: <6a9b9f34-1b11-698e-a75a-d319abcdc655@aross.me> Message-ID: Ooop. never mind. Found it on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwUL6Afo6QQ On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 10:38 PM, Louis Pearson wrote: > On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Alexander Ross < > maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me> wrote: > >> saved the live stream for the room, exacted lukes Saturday talk out from >> it: >> download thanks to http://onionshare.org/ over tor network: >> http://e5gxitu3qixdxlvk.onion/dazzling-liver >> >> tor browser can be used to download or diy cl downloader >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > Anybody have a link for those of us who do not have tor browser > installed? I'd like to watch it but would rather not install tor browser. > From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Feb 4 08:16:56 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 08:16:56 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Talk Download: Fosdem.2018 Component.Sourcing.for.Design.and.Manufacturing.in.Shenzhen.LiveStream In-Reply-To: References: <6a9b9f34-1b11-698e-a75a-d319abcdc655@aross.me> Message-ID: can someone update fosdem schedule 2018 page add youtube link also add 1420 possible lightinh talk riscv? On Sunday, February 4, 2018, Louis Pearson wrote: > Ooop. never mind. Found it on youtube: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwUL6Afo6QQ > > On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 10:38 PM, Louis Pearson > wrote: > > > On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Alexander Ross < > > maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me> wrote: > > > >> saved the live stream for the room, exacted lukes Saturday talk out from > >> it: > >> download thanks to http://onionshare.org/ over tor network: > >> http://e5gxitu3qixdxlvk.onion/dazzling-liver > >> > >> tor browser can be used to download or diy cl downloader > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > > > > Anybody have a link for those of us who do not have tor browser > > installed? I'd like to watch it but would rather not install tor browser. > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Feb 4 08:19:31 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 08:19:31 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook: I just was reading some old logs, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: look up on sunxi wiki mainline a20 On Sunday, February 4, 2018, Jean Flamelle wrote: > That was an old email I found searching my inbox rather than > "site:https://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/". > > Didn't mean any confusion by forwarding it instead of quoting it. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From auerswal at unix-ag.uni-kl.de Sun Feb 4 12:39:43 2018 From: auerswal at unix-ag.uni-kl.de (Erik Auerswald) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 13:39:43 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Allwinner VPU kernel driver crowdfunding campaign In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 02/03/2018 11:26 PM, Forest Crossman wrote: > I'm suprised this hasn't been posted here yet, considering its > relevance to this project: > https://bootlin.com/blog/allwinner-vpu-crowdfunding/ Thanks for this info. > The engineers at Bootlin (formerly Free Electrons) are running a > crowdfunding campaign to complete the upstream kernel support for the > CedarX Video Processing Unit (Allwinner hardware video > decoder/encoder). If you're not familiar with Bootlin, they're the > ones responsible for a lot of the other mainlining work that's already > been done for Alwinner SoCs, so they have experience getting patches > integrated upstream and with kernel development in general. > > They've already reached their funding goal--which includes support for > MPEG-2, MPEG-4 part 2/H.263, and MPEG-4 part 10/H.264/AVC decoding on > the A20 SoC--but they have a few stretch goals that include support > for newer Allwinner SoCs, HEVC/H.265 decoding, and H.264 encoding. > > Anyways, if any of you want to help fund the development of Free > Software, this looks like a pretty good opportunity to do so! I think that work is really important for the goal of using the EOMA68-A20 in the years to come, instead of throwing it away. Upstream Linux kernel support is important for this, as is high quality library work. Proper free software VPU support might enable the use of EOMA68-A20 as a media center system, even after it is too slow for e.g. web browsing. > For more information, see the Kickstarter campaign here: > https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bootlin/allwinner-vpu-support-in-the-official-linux-kernel I have just backed that campaign. Thanks, Erik From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Feb 4 14:19:33 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 14:19:33 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Designing a Libre Embedded / Mobile RISCV64 SoC' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Sunday, February 4, 2018 Subject: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Designing a Libre Embedded / Mobile RISCV64 SoC' To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Cc: responsible for track Lightning Talks Hello! The video of your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled Designing a Libre Embedded / Mobile RISCV64 SoC is now available for review at: https://review.video.fosdem.org/review/c97ffff2d995cc901c7e92a1ab14b5 5b34cda9132200ceb2d3ff35e8a4b2ad88 Please help us review your talk, so that we can release it sooner. This will only take a few minutes of your time; if you don't do it, we will have to, but then it may take several weeks or even months before your talk recording will be released. Things to look out for: - Please indicate the start and end of your talk. Include our actual talk, questions and applause. Optionally include the introduction. - The review screen shows three videos. The video marked "main" is what the system currently thinks is your talk. The two other ones provide context. They should help you find the start and end points and will not be part of the released video. - Please verify that the audio track is usable. If it isn't, try the "alternate" audio channel. - In case of problems that you cannot fix using the interface, mark the talk as "broken" and enter a note. We will then see what can be done. If you want some more detailed instructions on how to use the webform, please see the documentation at https://yoe.github.io/sreview In case of any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us at: mailinglist: video at fosdem.org IRC: irc.freenode.net, channel #fosdem-video (web interface: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#fosdem-video ) Thanks for your help! the FOSDEM video team -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Feb 4 17:12:12 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 17:12:12 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Monday, February 5, 2018 Subject: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Cc: responsible for track Hardware Enablement < hardware-devroom-manager at fosdem.org> Hello! The video of your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report is now available for review at: https://review.video.fosdem.org/review/b9ee7bfb82b64e02220894c0b6c925 87215c9f8c212b87531bef94632f411c25 Please help us review your talk, so that we can release it sooner. This will only take a few minutes of your time; if you don't do it, we will have to, but then it may take several weeks or even months before your talk recording will be released. Things to look out for: - Please indicate the start and end of your talk. Include our actual talk, questions and applause. Optionally include the introduction. - The review screen shows three videos. The video marked "main" is what the system currently thinks is your talk. The two other ones provide context. They should help you find the start and end points and will not be part of the released video. - Please verify that the audio track is usable. If it isn't, try the "alternate" audio channel. - In case of problems that you cannot fix using the interface, mark the talk as "broken" and enter a note. We will then see what can be done. If you want some more detailed instructions on how to use the webform, please see the documentation at https://yoe.github.io/sreview In case of any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us at: mailinglist: video at fosdem.org IRC: irc.freenode.net, channel #fosdem-video (web interface: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#fosdem-video ) Thanks for your help! the FOSDEM video team -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From parobalth at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 21:04:26 2018 From: parobalth at gmail.com (Parobalth) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 22:04:26 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Talk Download: Fosdem.2018 Component.Sourcing.for.Design.and.Manufacturing.in.Shenzhen.LiveStream In-Reply-To: References: <6a9b9f34-1b11-698e-a75a-d319abcdc655@aross.me> Message-ID: Am 04.02.2018 9:17 vorm. schrieb "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" < lkcl at lkcl.net>: can someone update fosdem schedule 2018 page add youtube link also add 1420 possible lightinh talk riscv? Done! I added the two youtube links for the 17:30 and 14:20 talks. Pablo From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Mon Feb 5 01:28:19 2018 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 20:28:19 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <20180203161006.hc6wuty2f5rvjjdc@floriannotebook> References: <20180203023010.GA6247@topoi.pooq.com> <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> <20180203161006.hc6wuty2f5rvjjdc@floriannotebook> Message-ID: <20180205012818.GA31254@topoi.pooq.com> On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 05:10:06PM +0100, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote: > > I believe websites should use either default colors or custom colored > dark on light text like most websites. Those who don’t like it can > override the stylesheet colors like they have to do for most websites, > i.e. Not as easy to do as it should be. I once changed the default browser settings to be white foreground and black background. I came to hate the websites that override the default foreground without overriding the default background or vice versa. I end up with dark on black or light on white. -- hendrik From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Mon Feb 5 01:39:25 2018 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 20:39:25 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> References: <20180203023010.GA6247@topoi.pooq.com> <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180205013925.GB31254@topoi.pooq.com> On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 09:02:10AM -0500, rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > On Friday, February 02, 2018 09:30:10 PM Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 06:10:57PM +0000, Alexander Ross wrote: > > > Re Webpage background, heh yea im the opposite, i find it harder to read > > > a white/light background. saying that my email client is set to use > > > light blue... lately ive been using owl firefox addon[1] for changing > > > websites themes to a dark one. found it to give me relief from eye > > > strain :). > > > > I prefer light text on a dark background. Especially at night, when the > > screen otherwise becomes glaringly bright. It also reduces flicker on > > slow-refresh monitors. > > > > And as for the letter-thinning you experience with white text -- that's > > exactly what I perceive with white text! I think it is an effect of > > slight lack of focus. with a bright background it eaats into the letter > > shapes, but if the shapes become a little blurry they are still quie > > readable. > > > > I son't understand how the opposite effect which you report arises. > > I guess you mean why I see that thinning effect with light text on a dark > background? Interesting. > > I guess it could be: > * our eyes trained differently > * our eyes function differently--I have astigmatism, but it is corrected by > my glasses so I don't think that is a factor > * different tools on our computers render the fonts differently? (I'm not > sure I know what, in the end, actually renders the fonts on my computer--is it > X (assuming my Wheezy installation is using X), or is it different for different > apps? > > I did find a bug report not too long ago for some application which actually > confirmed the bias I described, and described how that worked (in general > terms)--I'll make a cursory search or try to remember where I found that, and, > if I do, I'll post it here. > > Of course, the one URL which Florian posted did provide some reasons why dark > text on a light background is generallly better for your eyes (iirc the > article). > > https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/53264/dark-or-white-color-theme-is- > better-for-the-eyes# It argues that with more light the eye has more information to use to focus properly. But if focus isn't proper for whatever reason, I think white letters becoming blurry are more readable than white background invading the thin black lines. I discovered this long ago in the days of fuzzy CRTs. I wonder what physical media those experiments werre carried out with. -- hendrik From pelzflorian at pelzflorian.de Mon Feb 5 07:01:14 2018 From: pelzflorian at pelzflorian.de (pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 08:01:14 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <20180205012818.GA31254@topoi.pooq.com> References: <20180203023010.GA6247@topoi.pooq.com> <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> <20180203161006.hc6wuty2f5rvjjdc@floriannotebook> <20180205012818.GA31254@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <20180205070114.dplcs4jlh3fnrmtq@floriannotebook> On Sun, Feb 04, 2018 at 08:28:19PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 05:10:06PM +0100, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote: > > > > I believe websites should use either default colors or custom colored > > dark on light text like most websites. Those who don’t like it can > > override the stylesheet colors like they have to do for most websites, > > i.e. > > Not as easy to do as it should be. I once changed the default browser > settings to be white foreground and black background. I came to hate > the websites that override the default foreground without overriding the > default background or vice versa. I end up with dark on black or light > on white. > > -- hendrik > Did you use !important for overriding? I did not try it for long, but I believe this CSS should override *all* sites: * { color : white !important; background-color : black !important; } a { color : cyan !important; } (See https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Cascade though I would hope there are addons out there for light-on-dark text that do not require CSS knowledge.) From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Feb 5 12:04:25 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 12:04:25 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem 2018 Message-ID: hi thank you to everyone who helped lovely to meet you all thierry wim jonathon raphael thank you for fliers lunch time on stand awesome -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Feb 5 12:06:30 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 12:06:30 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] gnu guid Message-ID: so welcome to gnu guix people i donated a board set to them they will get full os up and running when available can add to list -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Feb 5 12:08:13 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 12:08:13 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Talk Download: Fosdem.2018 Component.Sourcing.for.Design.and.Manufacturing.in.Shenzhen.LiveStream In-Reply-To: References: <6a9b9f34-1b11-698e-a75a-d319abcdc655@aross.me> Message-ID: On Monday, February 5, 2018, Parobalth wrote: > Am 04.02.2018 9:17 vorm. schrieb "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" < > lkcl at lkcl.net>: > > can someone update fosdem schedule 2018 page add youtube link also add 1420 > possible lightinh talk riscv? > > > Done! I added the two youtube links for the 17:30 and 14:20 talks. awesome. lightning is somewhere too 3. will check oh i got to play bodhrain with howard chu must find it sevrral people recorded > > Pablo > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Feb 5 13:51:52 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 13:51:52 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I find this all strange, but good In-Reply-To: <4cbb0a99-6eef-04df-3f6f-8360ede6bd5a@posteo.de> References: <4cbb0a99-6eef-04df-3f6f-8360ede6bd5a@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Friday, February 2, 2018, zap wrote: > 2.5 watts for a quad core processor or even octacore... That sounds just > plain absurd. But yeah, with less crap inside of it... it makes some > sense I suppose. Shakti processors are going to be awesome. > > By the way Luke, I look forward to seeing your devices, and I wish you > the best. thx zap > > You are now receiving it least for now, 94 euros a week. Pretty awesome > right? > yeh :) > > And that doesn't even begin to cover the sheer awesomeness of > 250k you will be getting right? thats a budget i will be responsible for managing, have to use it wisely to fund the right projects! > > I am glad someone is helping you in a way that I only dream of helping you. > > Your products will one day be super awesome. Mostly because of the > Shakti. But even now they intrigue me. :) > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Feb 5 14:02:27 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 14:02:27 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Typo in Update: FOSDEM 2018, Shakti Project Tape-out Nearly Done, 2.7.5 EOMA68-A20 PCBs In-Reply-To: <02f9f284-737b-5d1c-d5f1-8f852c1afc47@posteo.de> References: <20180202102523.GA1862@avocado> <02f9f284-737b-5d1c-d5f1-8f852c1afc47@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Friday, February 2, 2018, zap wrote: > > > On 02/02/2018 05:25 AM, Pablo Rath wrote: > > Hi, > > in the latest update from Februar 1st there is an obvious typo in the > > markup resulting in one link rendered wrong. > > It starts with "The [Shakti Team]]" and I think it is one closing square > > bracket too much. > > oops > > Thank you, Luke for the interesting update and good luck with all the > > talks and FOSDEM. > > On Liberapay we made you the second highest funded individual person! :) > Wow, That is shocking. I am curious to see how much he is being funded. :) on page! > > > > kind regards > > Pablo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Mon Feb 5 17:28:38 2018 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 12:28:38 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 23:09:31 +0000 > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 9:38 PM, wrote: > they didn't like the modular concept :) they also really didn't like > the standard. > > plus, the form-factor is a bit small to fit a 5x54x90 card and > associated socket. About the pyra's computer devices, do we know how well suited they are to get connected to an eoma pc card? My thought was to have a modified part of the pyra's cabinet to enable inserting an eoma pc card. > >> ron can i ask you the favour of not referring to me in the 3rd > >> person? i'm right here!!! If I write: Lkcl, can you ... Then I want you to answer. If I write: Can lkcl ... Then all on the email list may answer. > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From calmstorm at posteo.de Mon Feb 5 17:33:24 2018 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 12:33:24 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2eaa05e7-4551-3f3c-e4f5-f4fbe0a1fba1@posteo.de> >>>> ron can i ask you the favour of not referring to me in the 3rd >>>> person? i'm right here!!! > If I write: Lkcl, can you ... > Then I want you to answer. > If I write: Can lkcl ... > Then all on the email list may answer. Not that talking in third person isn't amusing to me, but Luke doesn't seem to like it. Probably not a good idea to piss him off...... >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Mon Feb 5 17:39:57 2018 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 12:39:57 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] sifive sells a riscv cpu mainboard Message-ID: Sifive has a mainboard for sale with a running riscv cpu. Many of the devices on the mainboard require non libre software. https://youtu.be/LAA1B5QNbO8?t=1507 From j.neuschaefer at gmx.net Mon Feb 5 17:49:36 2018 From: j.neuschaefer at gmx.net (Jonathan =?utf-8?Q?Neusch=C3=A4fer?=) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 18:49:36 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] sifive sells a riscv cpu mainboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180205174936.mfge24wtwkxwy7w4@latitude> On Mon, Feb 05, 2018 at 12:39:57PM -0500, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > Sifive has a mainboard for sale with a running riscv cpu. Many > of the devices on the mainboard require non libre software. > > https://youtu.be/LAA1B5QNbO8?t=1507 What do you mean exactly? - Do you mean that you'd need Microsemi's proprietary FPGA toolchain to re-generate the FPGA bitstream of the "southbridge" (which is not part of the mainboard, but arguably necessary in order to make good use of the board)? - Or do you mean that some/many (important) hardware blocks are nonfree *hardware*? - Or do you mean that nonfree firmware or drivers are required (which I've seen no indication of)? Jonathan Neuschäfer From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Feb 5 17:53:04 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 17:53:04 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:28 PM, wrote: > If I write: Lkcl, can you ... > Then I want you to answer. > If I write: Can lkcl ... > Then all on the email list may answer. the list's name is "arm-netbooks", best to refer to everyone on it by that, rather than confuse the use of my personal initials of my personal name? l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Feb 5 18:52:32 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 18:52:32 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2018 hyc fiddle and bodhrain Message-ID: https://youtu.be/4uwcTdKgMy4 From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Mon Feb 5 18:56:39 2018 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 18:56:39 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2018 hyc fiddle and bodhrain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0fb7e527-f495-de67-ff51-81dae1ebc15d@aross.me> nice, fun, thx. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Feb 5 19:01:02 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 19:01:02 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2018 hyc fiddle and bodhrain In-Reply-To: <0fb7e527-f495-de67-ff51-81dae1ebc15d@aross.me> References: <0fb7e527-f495-de67-ff51-81dae1ebc15d@aross.me> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Alexander Ross wrote: > nice, fun, thx. there's a couple more. my timing's out! i need to play way more... From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Mon Feb 5 20:05:03 2018 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 15:05:03 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] sifive sells a riscv cpu mainboard Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Jonathan Neuschäfer Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] sifive sells a riscv cpu mainboard Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 18:49:36 +0100 > On Mon, Feb 05, 2018 at 12:39:57PM -0500, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > > Sifive has a mainboard for sale with a running riscv cpu. Many > > of the devices on the mainboard require non libre software. > > > > https://youtu.be/LAA1B5QNbO8?t=1507 > > What do you mean exactly? I do not know exactly what I mean. Go to 31.20 in the video to hear what sifive means. Can you tell if the mainboard is free software foundation compliant? If that is the case, I understood the video wrongly. I got the impression the mainboard requires non libre software to run. Software which makes the mainboard not free software foundation compliant. At 43.39 in the video they say, they are using an external non libre software graphics card. If we got all of the source code for one of the mali gpu's, could the aforementioned gpu then be used on a riscv mainboard? Or in general, can you place a mali gpu on a riscv mainboard? > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From j.neuschaefer at gmx.net Mon Feb 5 23:40:03 2018 From: j.neuschaefer at gmx.net (Jonathan =?utf-8?Q?Neusch=C3=A4fer?=) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 00:40:03 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] sifive sells a riscv cpu mainboard In-Reply-To: References: <20180205174936.mfge24wtwkxwy7w4@latitude> Message-ID: <20180205234003.yyuek6f56wdripyw@latitude> On Mon, Feb 05, 2018 at 03:05:03PM -0500, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Jonathan Neuschäfer > Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk > To: Eco-Conscious Computing > Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] sifive sells a riscv cpu mainboard > Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 18:49:36 +0100 > > > On Mon, Feb 05, 2018 at 12:39:57PM -0500, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > > > Sifive has a mainboard for sale with a running riscv cpu. Many > > > of the devices on the mainboard require non libre software. > > > > > > https://youtu.be/LAA1B5QNbO8?t=1507 > > > > What do you mean exactly? > > I do not know exactly what I mean. Go to 31.20 in the video > to hear what sifive means. "As I told you, the Freedom Unleashed 540 chip is based on the Freedom platform, but unfortunately, there are things that we can't open-source, for example the IPs that we got from the third-parties, such as the standard cells, the pads, the PLLs, the OTPs, the mask ROMs, the DDR controller PHY, the gigabit MAC." This is all hardware, not software. > Can you tell if the mainboard is free software foundation > compliant? As far as I understand, yes. > If that is the case, I understood the video wrongly. I got > the impression the mainboard requires non libre software > to run. Software which makes the mainboard not free > software foundation compliant. > > At 43.39 in the video they say, they are using an > external non libre software graphics card. If we got > all of the source code for one of the mali gpu's, > could the aforementioned gpu then be used on > a riscv mainboard? This was a regular desktop graphics card, connected over PCIe. > Or in general, can you place a mali gpu on a riscv mainboard? No, MALI is (AFAIK) not available as a separate chip, so you can't put it on a board if the SoC doesn't already have it. And since it's ARM MALI, I don't think ARM will license it for use in RISC-V SoCs… Jonathan Neuschäfer From eaterjolly at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 08:11:45 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 03:11:45 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/5/18, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:28 PM, wrote: > >> If I write: Lkcl, can you ... >> Then I want you to answer. >> If I write: Can lkcl ... >> Then all on the email list may answer. > > the list's name is "arm-netbooks", best to refer to everyone on it by > that, rather than confuse the use of my personal initials of my > personal name? > > l. A lead participating in community as a regular member, is important. This is difficult task not many will understand the value of, much less appreciate. If we don't address Luke directly, we depreciate a great deal of energy. Exaggerating what many could answer, deprives meaning from those few or the only one who can answer rigorously accurate. Transparency requires tinted windows. Openness requires passionate effort. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Feb 6 09:21:27 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 09:21:27 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tuesday, February 6, 2018, Jean Flamelle wrote: > On 2/5/18, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:28 PM, wrote: > > > >> If I write: Lkcl, can you ... > >> Then I want you to answer. > >> If I write: Can lkcl ... > >> Then all on the email list may answer. > > > > the list's name is "arm-netbooks", best to refer to everyone on it by > > that, rather than confuse the use of my personal initials of my > > personal name? > > > > l. > > A lead participating in community as a regular member, is important. indeed. and using the personal initials of the lead developer (me) to refer to the members, over whom i have absolutely no authority or control exvept as the dual role / capacity of list moderator, particularly when there already exists a unique and separate and distinct naming convention ("members of arm-netbooks") is massively confusing and thus is inappropriate. reminder ron: i set the rules here, you do not. that is my role as lead, and you are free to ignore those rules if you are also happy to accept the consequence that i am free to put you into moderation mode (again). This is difficult task not many will understand the value of, much > less appreciate. > > If we don't address Luke directly, we depreciate a great deal of energy. > Exaggerating what many could answer, deprives meaning from those few > or the only one who can answer rigorously accurate. > > confusion by not following normal conventions, by inventing new ones that nobody was consulted about, places a burden on absolutely everybody to work out what the hell is going on. > Transparency requires tinted windows. > Openness requires passionate effort. funny. nice analogy and also true. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From chadvellacott at sasktel.net Tue Feb 6 14:32:00 2018 From: chadvellacott at sasktel.net (chadvellacott at sasktel.net) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:32:00 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo In-Reply-To: <20180205070114.dplcs4jlh3fnrmtq@floriannotebook> References: <20180203023010.GA6247@topoi.pooq.com> <201802030902.10503.rhkramer@gmail.com> <20180203161006.hc6wuty2f5rvjjdc@floriannotebook> <20180205012818.GA31254@topoi.pooq.com> <20180205070114.dplcs4jlh3fnrmtq@floriannotebook> Message-ID: <3ec688ad-3f86-cc1d-7a10-fc58cf548b4d@sasktel.net> On 18.2.5 1:1, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote: ~ > ~ I > would hope there are addons out there for light-on-dark text that do > not require CSS knowledge.) > https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/dark-background-light-text/ Usable, though it seems that some sites do not work with it. 4 different ways to try to make the page be light on dark, plus as a 5th mode. granular to domain or page or other. can be disabled <>. has a tool-bar--button. From chadvellacott at sasktel.net Tue Feb 6 14:38:18 2018 From: chadvellacott at sasktel.net (chadvellacott at sasktel.net) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:38:18 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <935b1734-c2a6-4e46-6ff9-6618e114bd23@sasktel.net> On 18.2.5 11:53, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:28 PM, wrote: > >> If I write: Lkcl, can you ... >> Then I want you to answer. >> If I write: Can lkcl ... >> Then all on the email list may answer. > > the list's name is "arm-netbooks", best to refer to everyone on it by > that, rather than confuse the use of my personal initials of my > personal name? > > l. > May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke OR ANY MEMBER, to give an opinion as to whether Luke's ability or time or opportunity, means that Luke can do that something. If some one means to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here suggest better wording than Ron's wording. But it seems that persons needed Ron to be more --verbose. :^) Ron, if this is the meaning, then please confirm. And then may-be, persons will react as desired, to future uses of such wording. From calmstorm at posteo.de Tue Feb 6 22:01:30 2018 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 17:01:30 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: <935b1734-c2a6-4e46-6ff9-6618e114bd23@sasktel.net> References: <935b1734-c2a6-4e46-6ff9-6618e114bd23@sasktel.net> Message-ID: >    May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke OR > ANY MEMBER, to give an opinion as to whether Luke's ability or time or > opportunity, means that Luke can do that something.  If some one means > to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here suggest better wording > than Ron's wording.  But it seems that persons needed Ron to be more > --verbose. > :^) >    Ron, if this is the meaning, then please confirm.  And then may-be, > persons will react as desired, to future uses of such wording. Just my two cents, but this has gotten WAY off topic... amusing as that is for me, its not the purpose of this mailing list... and I don't think it is very helpful. So yeah, what is the pyra computer again? > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From calmstorm at posteo.de Tue Feb 6 22:14:08 2018 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 17:14:08 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: <935b1734-c2a6-4e46-6ff9-6618e114bd23@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <3ff29a25-e734-63b2-e957-ca67ff39b2ce@posteo.de> On 02/06/18 17:01, zap wrote: >>    May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke OR >> ANY MEMBER, to give an opinion as to whether Luke's ability or time or >> opportunity, means that Luke can do that something.  If some one means >> to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here suggest better wording >> than Ron's wording.  But it seems that persons needed Ron to be more >> --verbose. >> :^) >>    Ron, if this is the meaning, then please confirm.  And then may-be, >> persons will react as desired, to future uses of such wording. > Just my two cents, but this has gotten WAY off topic... amusing as that > is for me, its not the purpose of this mailing list... and I don't think > it is very helpful. > > So yeah, what is the pyra computer again? ps, I know I am guilty of this too, But yeah, I just felt the need to point this out because its happened many times. >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Tue Feb 6 22:15:21 2018 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 12:15:21 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: <935b1734-c2a6-4e46-6ff9-6618e114bd23@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <6931d171-3dd9-2000-30a1-5754c9427d56@FineArtMarquetry.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/06/2018 12:01 PM, zap wrote: > >> May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke >> OR ANY MEMBER, to give an opinion as to whether Luke's ability or >> time or opportunity, means that Luke can do that something. If >> some one means to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here >> suggest better wording than Ron's wording. But it seems that >> persons needed Ron to be more --verbose. :^) Ron, if this is the >> meaning, then please confirm. And then may-be, persons will react >> as desired, to future uses of such wording. > Just my two cents, but this has gotten WAY off topic... snip... Since I'm replying, I can see that the wording "Does anyone know if Luke has..." seems more polite and proper is the scheme of things than "Has Luke..." > So yeah, what is the pyra computer again? 5" mini laptop/game console, very open as such things go: https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/ - -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ 808-828-1107 GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQr4UJuNOrSU9WDneS4ZgN1E0tI+wUCWnoo5wAKCRC4ZgN1E0tI +/jrAKCBIGX2+STJs5n+xDJ3xKE4NNooHACglWVWCQtXQCgXEFEtaTY8tk7GOds= =y9/m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From calmstorm at posteo.de Tue Feb 6 22:20:17 2018 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 17:20:17 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: <6931d171-3dd9-2000-30a1-5754c9427d56@FineArtMarquetry.com> References: <935b1734-c2a6-4e46-6ff9-6618e114bd23@sasktel.net> <6931d171-3dd9-2000-30a1-5754c9427d56@FineArtMarquetry.com> Message-ID: <2461b47c-bb1e-3a47-5d7e-53035ba52fc0@posteo.de> On 02/06/18 17:15, Tor, the Marqueteur wrote: > On 02/06/2018 12:01 PM, zap wrote: > > >> May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke > >> OR ANY MEMBER, to give an opinion as to whether Luke's ability or > >> time or opportunity, means that Luke can do that something.  If > >> some one means to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here > >> suggest better wording than Ron's wording.  But it seems that > >> persons needed Ron to be more --verbose. :^) Ron, if this is the > >> meaning, then please confirm.  And then may-be, persons will react > >> as desired, to future uses of such wording. > > Just my two cents, but this has gotten WAY off topic... > snip... > > Since I'm replying, I can see that the wording "Does anyone know if > Luke has..." seems more polite and proper is the scheme of things than > "Has Luke..." > > > So yeah, what is the pyra computer again? > 5" mini laptop/game console, very open as such things go: > https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/ Interesting... I see, it looks like a very small laptop kind of like the size of a  nintendo ds... all though it has more options, buttons to press, and of course no crapware/proprietary crap. Still, impressive... I hope they pick a processor that isn't vulnerable to spectre and meltdown. xD > > From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Tue Feb 6 23:44:17 2018 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 23:44:17 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Video of Stall Message-ID: <3f9cbdf6-196e-08ee-4e59-d2298b3e4f77@aross.me> near the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzNfWNMAV_A From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Feb 6 23:57:26 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 23:57:26 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Video of Stall In-Reply-To: <3f9cbdf6-196e-08ee-4e59-d2298b3e4f77@aross.me> References: <3f9cbdf6-196e-08ee-4e59-d2298b3e4f77@aross.me> Message-ID: can you edit achedule just putvlinkvto record it On Wednesday, February 7, 2018, Alexander Ross < maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me> wrote: > near the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzNfWNMAV_A > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Feb 7 00:02:03 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 00:02:03 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: <2461b47c-bb1e-3a47-5d7e-53035ba52fc0@posteo.de> References: <935b1734-c2a6-4e46-6ff9-6618e114bd23@sasktel.net> <6931d171-3dd9-2000-30a1-5754c9427d56@FineArtMarquetry.com> <2461b47c-bb1e-3a47-5d7e-53035ba52fc0@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Wednesday, February 7, 2018, zap crap. > > > Still, impressive... I hope they pick a processor that isn't vulnerable > to spectre and meltdown. xD > > > > > > cortex a15 dual. probably omap5. baby version is a7. probably isnt but goodvidea to check. modukar design so can replace. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From phil at hands.com Wed Feb 7 07:22:03 2018 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 08:22:03 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: <2461b47c-bb1e-3a47-5d7e-53035ba52fc0@posteo.de> References: <935b1734-c2a6-4e46-6ff9-6618e114bd23@sasktel.net> <6931d171-3dd9-2000-30a1-5754c9427d56@FineArtMarquetry.com> <2461b47c-bb1e-3a47-5d7e-53035ba52fc0@posteo.de> Message-ID: <87d11hmfhg.fsf@whist.hands.com> On Tue, 06 Feb 2018, zap wrote: > On 02/06/18 17:15, Tor, the Marqueteur wrote: >> On 02/06/2018 12:01 PM, zap wrote: >> >> >> May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke >> >> OR ANY MEMBER, to give an opinion as to whether Luke's ability or >> >> time or opportunity, means that Luke can do that something.  If >> >> some one means to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here >> >> suggest better wording than Ron's wording.  But it seems that >> >> persons needed Ron to be more --verbose. :^) Ron, if this is the >> >> meaning, then please confirm.  And then may-be, persons will react >> >> as desired, to future uses of such wording. >> > Just my two cents, but this has gotten WAY off topic... >> snip... >> >> Since I'm replying, I can see that the wording "Does anyone know if >> Luke has..." seems more polite and proper is the scheme of things than >> "Has Luke..." >> >> > So yeah, what is the pyra computer again? >> 5" mini laptop/game console, very open as such things go: >> https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/ > Interesting... I see, it looks like a very small laptop kind of like the > size of a  nintendo ds... > > all though it has more options, buttons to press, and of course no > crapware/proprietary crap. Also, ludicrous attention to detail -- the previous incarnation took at least an extra 6 months because they didn't like the feel of the gaming nubs and/or their robustness so went through _many_ test versions and suppliers IIRC. If you want an open gaming platform that will survive several generations, this is probably it. (BTW I have no affiliation, and don't even own one as I'm not really into games, but if my kids want such a thing they'll be getting these rather than nintendos). Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY From tzafrir at cohens.org.il Wed Feb 7 11:47:41 2018 From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 12:47:41 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Talk Download: Fosdem.2018 Component.Sourcing.for.Design.and.Manufacturing.in.Shenzhen.LiveStream In-Reply-To: References: <6a9b9f34-1b11-698e-a75a-d319abcdc655@aross.me> Message-ID: <20180207114740.brjwjfphjfklldg2@lemon> On Sun, Feb 04, 2018 at 10:04:26PM +0100, Parobalth wrote: > Am 04.02.2018 9:17 vorm. schrieb "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" < > lkcl at lkcl.net>: > > can someone update fosdem schedule 2018 page add youtube link also add 1420 > possible lightinh talk riscv? > > > Done! I added the two youtube links for the 17:30 and 14:20 talks. FOSDEM stores recording of all talks. IIRC the schedule page should have included a link to the video recordings of the talks. Specifically the talk's page: https://fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/oshw_shenzen/ Video (webm): https://video.fosdem.org/2018/K.4.201/osd_crash_course_on_remote_usability_testing.webm All videos of the room: https://video.fosdem.org/2018/K.4.201/ -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's tzafrir at cohens.org.il | | best tzafrir at debian.org | | friend From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Feb 7 11:51:14 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 11:51:14 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Talk Download: Fosdem.2018 Component.Sourcing.for.Design.and.Manufacturing.in.Shenzhen.LiveStream In-Reply-To: <20180207114740.brjwjfphjfklldg2@lemon> References: <6a9b9f34-1b11-698e-a75a-d319abcdc655@aross.me> <20180207114740.brjwjfphjfklldg2@lemon> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:47 AM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > On Sun, Feb 04, 2018 at 10:04:26PM +0100, Parobalth wrote: >> Am 04.02.2018 9:17 vorm. schrieb "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" < >> lkcl at lkcl.net>: >> >> can someone update fosdem schedule 2018 page add youtube link also add 1420 >> possible lightinh talk riscv? >> >> >> Done! I added the two youtube links for the 17:30 and 14:20 talks. > > FOSDEM stores recording of all talks. IIRC the schedule page should have > included a link to the video recordings of the talks. Specifically the > talk's page: > https://fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/oshw_shenzen/ > > Video (webm): > https://video.fosdem.org/2018/K.4.201/osd_crash_course_on_remote_usability_testing.webm > > All videos of the room: > https://video.fosdem.org/2018/K.4.201/ awesome! really want to get the other one, eoma68 update one. From tzafrir at cohens.org.il Wed Feb 7 12:35:24 2018 From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 13:35:24 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Talk Download: Fosdem.2018 Component.Sourcing.for.Design.and.Manufacturing.in.Shenzhen.LiveStream In-Reply-To: References: <6a9b9f34-1b11-698e-a75a-d319abcdc655@aross.me> <20180207114740.brjwjfphjfklldg2@lemon> Message-ID: <20180207123524.azsgzuo3apvzbftb@lemon> On Wed, Feb 07, 2018 at 11:51:14AM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:47 AM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > > > On Sun, Feb 04, 2018 at 10:04:26PM +0100, Parobalth wrote: > >> Am 04.02.2018 9:17 vorm. schrieb "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" < > >> lkcl at lkcl.net>: > >> > >> can someone update fosdem schedule 2018 page add youtube link also add 1420 > >> possible lightinh talk riscv? > >> > >> > >> Done! I added the two youtube links for the 17:30 and 14:20 talks. > > > > FOSDEM stores recording of all talks. IIRC the schedule page should have > > included a link to the video recordings of the talks. Specifically the > > talk's page: > > https://fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/oshw_shenzen/ > > > > Video (webm): > > https://video.fosdem.org/2018/K.4.201/osd_crash_course_on_remote_usability_testing.webm > > > > All videos of the room: > > https://video.fosdem.org/2018/K.4.201/ > > awesome! really want to get the other one, eoma68 update one. https://fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/designing_riscv64_soc/ As you can see, that one has the video link. And the webm video already embedded in the page. This is how it should be. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's tzafrir at cohens.org.il | | best tzafrir at debian.org | | friend From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Feb 7 12:53:16 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 12:53:16 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Talk Download: Fosdem.2018 Component.Sourcing.for.Design.and.Manufacturing.in.Shenzhen.LiveStream In-Reply-To: <20180207123524.azsgzuo3apvzbftb@lemon> References: <6a9b9f34-1b11-698e-a75a-d319abcdc655@aross.me> <20180207114740.brjwjfphjfklldg2@lemon> <20180207123524.azsgzuo3apvzbftb@lemon> Message-ID: eoma68 one is too short for the "review" process. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > On Wed, Feb 07, 2018 at 11:51:14AM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:47 AM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: >> >> > On Sun, Feb 04, 2018 at 10:04:26PM +0100, Parobalth wrote: >> >> Am 04.02.2018 9:17 vorm. schrieb "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" < >> >> lkcl at lkcl.net>: >> >> >> >> can someone update fosdem schedule 2018 page add youtube link also add 1420 >> >> possible lightinh talk riscv? >> >> >> >> >> >> Done! I added the two youtube links for the 17:30 and 14:20 talks. >> > >> > FOSDEM stores recording of all talks. IIRC the schedule page should have >> > included a link to the video recordings of the talks. Specifically the >> > talk's page: >> > https://fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/oshw_shenzen/ >> > >> > Video (webm): >> > https://video.fosdem.org/2018/K.4.201/osd_crash_course_on_remote_usability_testing.webm >> > >> > All videos of the room: >> > https://video.fosdem.org/2018/K.4.201/ >> >> awesome! really want to get the other one, eoma68 update one. > > https://fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/designing_riscv64_soc/ > > As you can see, that one has the video link. And the webm video already > embedded in the page. This is how it should be. > > -- > Tzafrir Cohen | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is > http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's > tzafrir at cohens.org.il | | best > tzafrir at debian.org | | friend > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Feb 7 15:14:09 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 15:14:09 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: can someone take a look grab the start point from when i start talking at blackboard? add to rt wiki? ta. got update to write ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 Subject: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Cc: responsible for track Hardware Enablement < hardware-devroom-manager at fosdem.org> Hello! The video of your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report is now available for review at: https://review.video.fosdem.org/review/b9ee7bfb82b64e02220894c0b6c925 87215c9f8c212b87531bef94632f411c25 Please help us review your talk, so that we can release it sooner. This will only take a few minutes of your time; if you don't do it, we will have to, but then it may take several weeks or even months before your talk recording will be released. Things to look out for: - Please indicate the start and end of your talk. Include our actual talk, questions and applause. Optionally include the introduction. - The review screen shows three videos. The video marked "main" is what the system currently thinks is your talk. The two other ones provide context. They should help you find the start and end points and will not be part of the released video. - Please verify that the audio track is usable. If it isn't, try the "alternate" audio channel. - In case of problems that you cannot fix using the interface, mark the talk as "broken" and enter a note. We will then see what can be done. If you want some more detailed instructions on how to use the webform, please see the documentation at https://yoe.github.io/sreview In case of any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us at: mailinglist: video at fosdem.org IRC: irc.freenode.net, channel #fosdem-video (web interface: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#fosdem-video ) Thanks for your help! the FOSDEM video team -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From dod38fr at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 15:17:29 2018 From: dod38fr at gmail.com (Dominique Dumont) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 16:17:29 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New kickstarter project: Allwinner VPU support in the official Linux kernel Message-ID: <17252695.dYtr29cftO@ylum> [ I hope this mail is not out of topic for this list ] Bootlin (ex Free Electrons) is launching a new project on kickstarter to provide mainstream kernel support for the video part of AllWinner's chips. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bootlin/allwinner-vpu-support-in-the-official-linux-kernel I think this is a good idea which would benefit EOMA, so I've backed this project. All the best -- https://github.com/dod38fr/ -o- http://search.cpan.org/~ddumont/ http://ddumont.wordpress.com/ -o- irc: dod at irc.debian.org From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Feb 7 15:21:29 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 15:21:29 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New kickstarter project: Allwinner VPU support in the official Linux kernel In-Reply-To: <17252695.dYtr29cftO@ylum> References: <17252695.dYtr29cftO@ylum> Message-ID: yeah totally cool man thx for sharing. must put it in update On Wednesday, February 7, 2018, Dominique Dumont wrote: > [ I hope this mail is not out of topic for this list ] > > Bootlin (ex Free Electrons) is launching a new project on kickstarter > to provide mainstream kernel support for the video part of AllWinner's > chips. > > https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bootlin/allwinner- > vpu-support-in-the-official-linux-kernel > > I think this is a good idea which would benefit EOMA, so I've backed this > project. > > All the best > > -- > https://github.com/dod38fr/ -o- http://search.cpan.org/~ddumont/ > http://ddumont.wordpress.com/ -o- irc: dod at irc.debian.org > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 8 17:29:11 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 17:29:11 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: can someone kindly check this for me? thx --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:10 PM Subject: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Cc: responsible for track Hardware Enablement Hello! The video of your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report is now available for review at: https://review.video.fosdem.org/review/b9ee7bfb82b64e02220894c0b6c92587215c9f8c212b87531bef94632f411c25 Please help us review your talk, so that we can release it sooner. This will only take a few minutes of your time; if you don't do it, we will have to, but then it may take several weeks or even months before your talk recording will be released. Things to look out for: - Please indicate the start and end of your talk. Include our actual talk, questions and applause. Optionally include the introduction. - The review screen shows three videos. The video marked "main" is what the system currently thinks is your talk. The two other ones provide context. They should help you find the start and end points and will not be part of the released video. - Please verify that the audio track is usable. If it isn't, try the "alternate" audio channel. - In case of problems that you cannot fix using the interface, mark the talk as "broken" and enter a note. We will then see what can be done. If you want some more detailed instructions on how to use the webform, please see the documentation at https://yoe.github.io/sreview In case of any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us at: mailinglist: video at fosdem.org IRC: irc.freenode.net, channel #fosdem-video (web interface: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#fosdem-video ) Thanks for your help! the FOSDEM video team From silverskullpsu at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 20:58:15 2018 From: silverskullpsu at gmail.com (Jonathan Frederickson) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 15:58:15 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm getting "Invalid URL" at that link - maybe someone else has already done it? On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > can someone kindly check this for me? thx > > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: > Date: Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:10 PM > Subject: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' > To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > Cc: responsible for track Hardware Enablement > > > > Hello! > > The video of your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled > > Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report > > is now available for review at: > > https://review.video.fosdem.org/review/b9ee7bfb82b64e02220894c0b6c92587215c9f8c212b87531bef94632f411c25 > > Please help us review your talk, so that we can release it sooner. This > will only take a few minutes of your time; if you don't do it, we will > have to, but then it may take several weeks or even months before your > talk recording will be released. > > Things to look out for: > > - Please indicate the start and end of your talk. Include our actual > talk, questions and applause. Optionally include the introduction. > - The review screen shows three videos. The video marked "main" is what > the system currently thinks is your talk. The two other ones provide > context. They should help you find the start and end points and will > not be part of the released video. > - Please verify that the audio track is usable. If it isn't, try the > "alternate" audio channel. > - In case of problems that you cannot fix using the interface, mark the > talk as "broken" and enter a note. We will then see what can be done. > > If you want some more detailed instructions on how to use the webform, > please see the documentation at https://yoe.github.io/sreview > > In case of any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us at: > > mailinglist: video at fosdem.org > IRC: irc.freenode.net, channel #fosdem-video (web interface: > http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#fosdem-video ) > > Thanks for your help! > > the FOSDEM video team > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 8 21:13:14 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 21:13:14 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: quite possibly... --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Jonathan Frederickson wrote: > I'm getting "Invalid URL" at that link - maybe someone else has already done it? > > On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: >> can someone kindly check this for me? thx >> >> --- >> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: >> Date: Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:10 PM >> Subject: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' >> To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> Cc: responsible for track Hardware Enablement >> >> >> >> Hello! >> >> The video of your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled >> >> Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report >> >> is now available for review at: >> >> https://review.video.fosdem.org/review/b9ee7bfb82b64e02220894c0b6c92587215c9f8c212b87531bef94632f411c25 >> >> Please help us review your talk, so that we can release it sooner. This >> will only take a few minutes of your time; if you don't do it, we will >> have to, but then it may take several weeks or even months before your >> talk recording will be released. >> >> Things to look out for: >> >> - Please indicate the start and end of your talk. Include our actual >> talk, questions and applause. Optionally include the introduction. >> - The review screen shows three videos. The video marked "main" is what >> the system currently thinks is your talk. The two other ones provide >> context. They should help you find the start and end points and will >> not be part of the released video. >> - Please verify that the audio track is usable. If it isn't, try the >> "alternate" audio channel. >> - In case of problems that you cannot fix using the interface, mark the >> talk as "broken" and enter a note. We will then see what can be done. >> >> If you want some more detailed instructions on how to use the webform, >> please see the documentation at https://yoe.github.io/sreview >> >> In case of any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us at: >> >> mailinglist: video at fosdem.org >> IRC: irc.freenode.net, channel #fosdem-video (web interface: >> http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#fosdem-video ) >> >> Thanks for your help! >> >> the FOSDEM video team >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From crimier at yandex.ru Thu Feb 8 21:22:57 2018 From: crimier at yandex.ru (=?utf-8?B?UGnEjXVnaW5zIEFyc2VuaWpz?=) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2018 23:22:57 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <100801518124977@web60o.yandex.ru> >From #fosdem at freenode: [20 minutes ago] -christel- [Global Notice] Hi all, We appear to have some unexpected issues with one of our servers, and are temporarily without services. Please message a staffer if you require channel moderator assistance while we work to bring them back. Apologies for the inconvenience and thank you for using freenode. ... [8 minutes ago] -christel- [Global Notice] Hi again, it would appear that the issue is an electrical failure in the rack the server lives in. We are bringing up replacement services, but may lose up to 15 minutes of data between the latest backup and the outage. Services should be up momentarily. Thank you for your patience, and again apologies for the inconvenience. I think we should check tomorrow. -Arsenijs 08.02.2018, 23:14, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" : > quite possibly... > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Jonathan Frederickson > wrote: >>  I'm getting "Invalid URL" at that link - maybe someone else has already done it? >> >>  On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >>   wrote: >>>  can someone kindly check this for me? thx >>> >>>  --- >>>  crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >>> >>>  ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>  From: >>>  Date: Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:10 PM >>>  Subject: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' >>>  To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >>>  Cc: responsible for track Hardware Enablement >>>   >>> >>>  Hello! >>> >>>  The video of your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled >>> >>>  Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report >>> >>>  is now available for review at: >>> >>>  https://review.video.fosdem.org/review/b9ee7bfb82b64e02220894c0b6c92587215c9f8c212b87531bef94632f411c25 >>> >>>  Please help us review your talk, so that we can release it sooner. This >>>  will only take a few minutes of your time; if you don't do it, we will >>>  have to, but then it may take several weeks or even months before your >>>  talk recording will be released. >>> >>>  Things to look out for: >>> >>>  - Please indicate the start and end of your talk. Include our actual >>>    talk, questions and applause. Optionally include the introduction. >>>  - The review screen shows three videos. The video marked "main" is what >>>    the system currently thinks is your talk. The two other ones provide >>>    context. They should help you find the start and end points and will >>>    not be part of the released video. >>>  - Please verify that the audio track is usable. If it isn't, try the >>>    "alternate" audio channel. >>>  - In case of problems that you cannot fix using the interface, mark the >>>    talk as "broken" and enter a note. We will then see what can be done. >>> >>>  If you want some more detailed instructions on how to use the webform, >>>  please see the documentation at https://yoe.github.io/sreview >>> >>>  In case of any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us at: >>> >>>  mailinglist: video at fosdem.org >>>  IRC: irc.freenode.net, channel #fosdem-video (web interface: >>>  http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#fosdem-video ) >>> >>>  Thanks for your help! >>> >>>  the FOSDEM video team >>> >>>  _______________________________________________ >>>  arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >>>  http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >>>  Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk >> >>  _______________________________________________ >>  arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >>  http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >>  Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 00:18:53 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 17:18:53 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' In-Reply-To: <100801518124977@web60o.yandex.ru> References: <100801518124977@web60o.yandex.ru> Message-ID: I just tried the link again and the status is 'Transcoding' so it sounds like maybe the review is complete and processing is underway? From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Feb 9 08:27:32 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 08:27:32 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' In-Reply-To: References: <100801518124977@web60o.yandex.ru> Message-ID: awesome On Friday, February 9, 2018, Richard Wilbur wrote: > I just tried the link again and the status is 'Transcoding' so it > sounds like maybe the review is complete and processing is underway? > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From pablo at parobalth.org Fri Feb 9 09:10:03 2018 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo Rath) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 10:10:03 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' In-Reply-To: References: <100801518124977@web60o.yandex.ru> Message-ID: <20180209090914.GA2011@avocado> Hi, Video of the talk is now on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETjvP5Vd_vc rhombus-tech wiki has been edited by me. kind regards Pablo From pablo at parobalth.org Fri Feb 9 09:59:29 2018 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo Rath) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 10:59:29 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] updates from eoma68-a20 In-Reply-To: References: <103e8c25-9d50-ff4f-dd03-6784c1fee817@posteo.de> <1a934f85-a61b-e2b3-d897-020a3bdce010@posteo.de> <180baf30-f18f-78d7-8a00-4e90bb681da1@kodafritt.se> Message-ID: <20180209095929.GB2011@avocado> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 12:55:33PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Samuel Lidén Borell > wrote: > > > Is there a reason why the crowdsupply project front page still says 2 > > GB? I think it would reduce the risk of misunderstandings if the RAM > > size reduction was mentioned clearly on that page :) > > because we don't know yet - for absolute certain - that it's not > available. plus, in the next batch, there will no longer be the > pre-production costs, it will be a straight matter of "placing another > order with the factory". > Fair point. Let us hope for the best. By the way the above discussion reminded me that the crowdsupply page still talks of "8GB NAND flash" which is no longer used. kind regards Pablo From crimier at yandex.ru Fri Feb 9 11:38:40 2018 From: crimier at yandex.ru (=?utf-8?B?UGnEjXVnaW5zIEFyc2VuaWpz?=) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2018 13:38:40 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] RK3399 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <245491518176320@web12j.yandex.ru> > If the pc card gets shipped, then I got one. Great, I got one, too - so we can start the design, keeping a computer card in mind =) Rounded up all my EEE PCs and EEE PC accessories, turns out I have a box full of EEE PCs - got three 701s (one working) and one working 900 (basically, 701 with a bigger screen & slightly extended motherboard). > I want to frame this enterprise a bit more. > It must be a hobby thing. You are not obliged > to anything and you can skip any time you > want. I will not hold it against you. It's a hobby thing for me, too - it's just that I'm really interested in making it work, partly because I don't see why it wouldn't, partly because I'd like to build something new and interesting with EOMA68! There's even a chance I'll get so caught up with my other projects so as to never finish this one - while it's an unlikely outcome, it's still possible. I assume you expect the same treatment from my side - which is perfectly fine to me. > One > reason why I will not put large money > into it. That way it is not a big deal if > we do not succeed. About large amounts of money - this project being expensive is unlikely, mostly because I don't *have* any large amounts of money to put into such a thing, so it will indeed have to be low-budget. > We should do without time frames. > Shipping the pc card appears to lay > months ahead. Yep, thankfully, the laptop will likely take a while anyway. What I'd personally be interested in is making it all work before the start of next EOMA crowdfunding, or maybe during it (so that the crowdfunding gets some more publicity and is taken even more seriously). >>  would you be interested in a videocall >>  of some sorts? > > On forums I prefer to stay anonymous. > If things turn ugly I can walk away. > If required can we get by using an > irc or another messenger? I'm mostly interested in desktop sharing from my side, so that I can show how to draw a simple board. No other requirements from your side, webcam definitely not needed (though having a voice channel would be great). If you're interested, I can stream my desktop to something like Twitch, so that you can view it (and whoever else wants to). >>  drawing the PCB, I can show you >>  the basics of KiCad > > For preparation, maybe you could > state some links I should have a > look on? I have no idea, I learned KiCad when I started drawing stuff. I think that something like "KiCad: Getting To Blinky" ( https://contextualelectronics.com/courses/getting-to-blinky/ ) could help with basics, a lot - it's a well-known KiCad tutorial. > I should mention I have a solder > iron and a multimeter. Great! Once we'll have first boards (say, keyboard matrix), we might require some more tools - but nothing expensive or complicated. Do you have a photo of your soldering iron somewhere (maybe a similar photo on the internet) - just to make sure it's the right one for the job? > About my comments on the devices > I wanted to express that I prefer less > complicated solutions. I was not > telling you what solution to > select. Oh, that's OK, and totally makes sense - I'm just starting to round up components, see what's suitable for us, and what isn't =) > The asus eee pc 4g's keyboard is > model v072462ak1 revision > 1.0 gr. The ribbon has 28 > wires and the ribbon is 28mm > wide. > On ebay I have found this ribbon > connector > https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/gkgAAOSwZB9Z-YIL/s-l1600.jpg. > Should I get one? I've measured connectors on my boards, and it looks like the right one. Worst case - I can desolder a connector from my boards and mail it to you. Notes: from these 28 pins, one is GND (for some reason) and one is NC (not connected), and two pairs of pins are in parallel. So, we'll need a microcontroller with 24 free GPIOs, or a cheap I2C IO expander added. Seeing how the keyboard is a 16x8 matrix, a GPIO expander could fit very well (alternatively, we could copy whatever solution is used in some kind of popular DIY keyboards, provided we can find one that suits the row/column count). I've been looking at battery power solutions. EEE PCs use 2S LiIon batteries, meaning that usual PMIC like AXP209 don't fit. Thankfully, we don't need to do as much as AXP209 does (and the computer card has an AXP209 in it anyway). For a start, we need to charge the battery, have some kind of signal when charger is present, optionally, step down the voltage to 5V. I've found AXP259, which does all three and should fit. I'll ask for a sample - I don't expect it any soon though, it's Chinese New Year, after all. I wonder if they'll even send a sample - I guess I'll purchase a couple of these in parallel, just in case. Cheers! Arsenijs From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Feb 9 12:45:09 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 12:45:09 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] RK3399 In-Reply-To: <245491518176320@web12j.yandex.ru> References: <245491518176320@web12j.yandex.ru> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 11:38 AM, Pičugins Arsenijs wrote: > I've been looking at battery power solutions. EEE PCs use 2S LiIon batteries, meaning that usual PMIC like AXP209 don't fit. there are dual-cell solutions out there, google bunnie huang laptop power board. > Thankfully, we don't need to do as much as AXP209 does (and the computer card has an AXP209 in it anyway). yes but it's placed into "5V DC input only mode" i.e. VBUS is shorted to DCIN (read the datassheet on this). cards must be treated as OTG-POWER-CAPABLE. this is IMPORTANT. you need to respect the fact that EOMA68's 5V power is DUAL DIRECTION JUST LIKE OTG POWER. so you cannot just shove 5V in to the EOMA68 card you ABSOLUTELY MUST have a one-way current-limiter at the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM (SY6280 does this job very well). this will terminate all and any possibility of doing OTG powering from incoming OTG Chargers but it is safer than fucking up and killing the card *and* the Housing *and* the battery *and* the DC mains power supply *and* the OTG Charger due to a current fight between conflicting incoming power supplies. bottom line: please do NOT design this circuit without public consultation and without my FINAL approval. remember, i am responsible for ensuring that the standard is safe for people to use. if you do not agree to this then you may NOT claim it is interoperable with EOMA68, you may not make ANY mention of EOMA68 anywhere at all. not even to say "it is quotes like quotes EOMA68...." apologies but i really need to be strict about this as it is down to user safety. get it wrong and you could end up killing someone due to a lithium battery fire. l. From crimier at yandex.ru Fri Feb 9 16:55:54 2018 From: crimier at yandex.ru (=?utf-8?B?UGnEjXVnaW5zIEFyc2VuaWpz?=) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2018 18:55:54 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] RK3399 In-Reply-To: References: <245491518176320@web12j.yandex.ru> Message-ID: <1239741518195354@web19g.yandex.ru> >  there are dual-cell solutions out there, google bunnie huang laptop > power board. I've found AXP259, will give it a shot - but will also look into Novena power circuit, thank you! >>  Thankfully, we don't need to do as much as AXP209 does (and the computer card has an AXP209 in it anyway). > >  yes but it's placed into "5V DC input only mode" i.e. VBUS is shorted > to DCIN (read the datassheet on this). cards must be treated as > OTG-POWER-CAPABLE. this is IMPORTANT. you need to respect the fact > that EOMA68's 5V power is DUAL DIRECTION JUST LIKE OTG POWER. That is very important - thank you for noting this. It should be straightforward to solve, thankfully. I've read the AXP209 datasheet before, and this is pretty much what I expected from looking at the card. >  so you cannot just shove 5V in to the EOMA68 card you ABSOLUTELY MUST > have a one-way current-limiter at the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM (SY6280 does > this job very well). this will terminate all and any possibility of > doing OTG powering from incoming OTG Chargers but it is safer than > fucking up and killing the card *and* the Housing *and* the battery > *and* the DC mains power supply *and* the OTG Charger due to a current > fight between conflicting incoming power supplies. Makes sense. If my understanding is correct, this won't terminate the possibility of OTG charger powering the board. Say, you plug the card into the laptop (powered from battery), then plug a USB charger into the card. Given that the protection is, AFAIU, supposed to be right after the card's 5V pins on the PCMCIA socket, the end result would be: 1) protection IC being triggered 2) card being powered from the USB charger 3) all the remaining laptop internals being powered from the laptop battery. There's also one more question: If a laptop is plugged in an AC source, plugging a USB charger will result into two power supply grounds being connected together - is there a possibility of anything destructive happening? Say, one charger is grounded and the other isn't, or they both are grounded, is there a possibility of current flowing? >  bottom line: please do NOT design this circuit without public > consultation and without my FINAL approval. remember, i am > responsible for ensuring that the standard is safe for people to use. > if you do not agree to this then you may NOT claim it is interoperable > with EOMA68, you may not make ANY mention of EOMA68 anywhere at all. > not even to say "it is quotes like quotes EOMA68...." No worries! Will send you the schematic for a review - of course, to this mailing list, too (and I have other people to consult locally). You might want to make a set of requirements for EOMA68-compatible products that make them eligible for the "EOMA68" mention - I imagine that, if you don't set as much requirements as possible beforehand (especially when they're as important as this), it will be problematic for you to track down everybody who might create an EOMA68-capable housing and review their design practices. I also imagine that reviewing a schematic after a schematic will get tiring quickly. Additionally, I suggest adding appropriate reverse current limiting to EOMA68 breakouts (available as Crowdsupply perks). If that's a feature that each and every breakout is very likely to need, you might as well make it easier for people to comply with the EOMA68 requirements (especially since all the people that ordered these breakouts are likely to do something out-of-line with them). >  apologies but i really need to be strict about this as it is down to > user safety. get it wrong and you could end up killing someone due to > a lithium battery fire. This is perfectly understandable - if my product ended up causing an injury for somebody through no fault of my own, it wouldn't be pretty. Cheers! Arsenijs From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 17:01:27 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 12:01:27 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] RK3399 In-Reply-To: <1239741518195354@web19g.yandex.ru> References: <245491518176320@web12j.yandex.ru> <1239741518195354@web19g.yandex.ru> Message-ID: Ground is 0v. It's hard for me to explain, but it works both as sort of a reference for whatever you use as +V supply (VCC) and as a return path... if you have two power supplies, unless there are optocouplers involved, you /want/ their grounds connected, as a general rule. That, however, does not guarantee further trouble. Needing two supplies to power one device typically results in one supply or the other trying to take on most of the load, overloading, and blowing up -- leaving the second one to do the same since it can't handle the full power of the circuitry.... From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Feb 9 17:25:14 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 17:25:14 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' In-Reply-To: <20180209090914.GA2011@avocado> References: <100801518124977@web60o.yandex.ru> <20180209090914.GA2011@avocado> Message-ID: star thank you will do a git pull later On Friday, February 9, 2018, Pablo Rath wrote: > Hi, > Video of the talk is now on YouTube: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETjvP5Vd_vc > > rhombus-tech wiki has been edited by me. > > kind regards > Pablo > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Feb 9 17:41:39 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 17:41:39 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] RK3399 In-Reply-To: <1239741518195354@web19g.yandex.ru> References: <245491518176320@web12j.yandex.ru> <1239741518195354@web19g.yandex.ru> Message-ID: On Saturday, February 10, 2018, Pičugins Arsenijs wrote: > > there are dual-cell solutions out there, google bunnie huang laptop > > power board. > > I've found AXP259, will give it a shot - but will also look into Novena > power circuit, thank you! havent investigated it, basicalky if it does triple way powe managemt youre good. batt otg dc > > >> Thankfully, we don't need to do as much as AXP209 does (and the > computer card has an AXP209 in it anyway). > > > > yes but it's placed into "5V DC input only mode" i.e. VBUS is shorted > > to DCIN (read the datassheet on this). cards must be treated as > > OTG-POWER-CAPABLE. this is IMPORTANT. you need to respect the fact > > that EOMA68's 5V power is DUAL DIRECTION JUST LIKE OTG POWER. > > That is very important - thank you for noting this. It should be > straightforward to solve, thankfully. I've read the AXP209 datasheet > before, and this is pretty much what I expected from looking at the card. > > axp209 functionality is whats needed. full triple power negotiation and protection. axp209 does otg vbus detect, dc in and battery. it is extremely complex. > > so you cannot just shove 5V in to the EOMA68 card you ABSOLUTELY MUST > > have a one-way current-limiter at the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM (SY6280 does > > this job very well). this will terminate all and any possibility of > > doing OTG powering from incoming OTG Chargers but it is safer than > > fucking up and killing the card *and* the Housing *and* the battery > > *and* the DC mains power supply *and* the OTG Charger due to a current > > fight between conflicting incoming power supplies. > > Makes sense. If my understanding is correct, this won't terminate the > possibility of OTG charger powering the board. Say, you plug the card into > the laptop (powered from battery), then plug a USB charger into the card. > Given that the protection is, AFAIU, supposed to be right after the card's > 5V pins on the PCMCIA socket, the end result would be: 1) protection IC > being triggered 2) card being powered from the USB charger 3) all the > remaining laptop internals being powered from the laptop battery. i will need to re-read this more later on a larger screen, i dont havevtine to read it fully right now to check it would help if you made a drawing or schematic. or drew out the power tree of an axp209 > > There's also one more question: > > If a laptop is plugged in an AC source, plugging a USB charger will result > into two power supply grounds being connected together - is there a > possibility of anything destructive happening? absolutely! if two power supplies are comnected together without diodes or mosfets the difference in their voltage results in a short circuit load across the path between them. this is incredibly dangerous as if the pcb track does not burn out the two sources definitely will. > Say, one charger is grounded and the other isn't, or they both are > grounded, is there a possibility of current flowing? grounded? you mean no circuit? then of course not. you need to be clearer, draw a diagram. > > > bottom line: please do NOT design this circuit without public > > consultation and without my FINAL approval. remember, i am > > responsible for ensuring that the standard is safe for people to use. > > if you do not agree to this then you may NOT claim it is interoperable > > with EOMA68, you may not make ANY mention of EOMA68 anywhere at all. > > not even to say "it is quotes like quotes EOMA68...." > > No worries! Will send you the schematic for a review - of course, to this > mailing list, too (and I have other people to consult locally). You might > want to make a set of requirements for EOMA68-compatible products that make > them eligible for the "EOMA68" mention - I imagine that, if you don't set > as much requirements as possible beforehand (especially when they're as > important as this), it will be problematic for you to track down everybody > who might create an EOMA68-capable housing and review their design > practices. I also imagine that reviewing a schematic after a schematic will > get tiring quickly. this has been done, as much as i could stand at the time, so there are sections on the standard describing exactly what i have just Said. libre people i.e. entire design, i will not charge and will go out of my way to help. anything proprietary, i have to charge for it as the impact has to be carefully assessed. > Additionally, I suggest adding appropriate reverse current limiting to > EOMA68 breakouts (available as Crowdsupply perks). If that's a feature that > each and every breakout is very likely to need, too complex. akso there are two different approaches. thus itself is too xomokex. akao there ate different current rewuiremenys different voktages. all far too complex. > > > > you might as well make it easier for people to comply with the EOMA68 > requirements (especially since all the people that ordered these breakouts > are likely to do something out-of-line with them). if there was one battery standard one power requirement yes. too much right now. microdesktop is already a reference design. laptop is second. etc etc. > > > apologies but i really need to be strict about this as it is down to > > user safety. get it wrong and you could end up killing someone due to > > a lithium battery fire. > > This is perfectly understandable - if my product ended up causing an > injury for somebody through no fault of my own, it wouldn't be pretty and the reputation of eoma68 would be destroyed in the process. all rhe work of the past 6 years... all gone, because someone arrogantly thought they knew better and didnt have to listen. so i will be really really strict about this just the way it has to be Cheers! > Arsenijs > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 17:55:38 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 12:55:38 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Your FOSDEM 2018 talk titled 'Crowdsupply EOMA68 Progress Report' In-Reply-To: References: <100801518124977@web60o.yandex.ru> <20180209090914.GA2011@avocado> Message-ID: Wrong thread, Fred :P From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sun Feb 11 17:09:22 2018 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 12:09:22 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 09:21:27 +0000 > On Tuesday, February 6, 2018, Jean Flamelle wrote: > > > On 2/5/18, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:28 PM, wrote: > he means to ask Luke OR ANY MEMBER Yes. In case lkcl not answering and there are posts on the pyra computer in the arm-netbook Archives, someone else could tell me. > Just my two cents, but this has gotten WAY off topic... amusing as that > is for me, its not the purpose of this mailing list... and I don't think > it is very helpful. I wrote 'Can lkcl' not 'arm-netbooks'. That was enough to ignite a request from lkcl to change the phrasing of future posts from me. I could have accepted the request. I did not because I considered my phrasing short, effective and direct. I do not see, why lkcl should limit my free speech on such a minor thing. I should not have gotten the request in the first place. Lkcl, is my phrasing that annoying or offensive or confusing to you that you believe it is fine to ask me to limit my free speech? Make your argument. On this email list there is at least one person who dances with profanities. I do not know if there is a rule about that. There should be. I have not corrected that person for such phrasings. For two reasons. It happens rather seldom. And considering how it would limit the persons free speech I refrained. > reminder ron: i set the rules here, you do not. that is my role as lead, That is correct. How you set your rules and govern them shows people how fit you are on this task. > and you are free to ignore those rules if you are also happy to accept the > consequence that i am free to put you into moderation mode (again). I react to arguments not the fact that I can get excluded. > > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > > -- > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sun Feb 11 17:18:21 2018 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 12:18:21 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] sifive sells a riscv cpu mainboard Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Jonathan Neuschäfer Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] sifive sells a riscv cpu mainboard Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 00:40:03 +0100 > On Mon, Feb 05, 2018 at 03:05:03PM -0500, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > > -------- Original Message -------- > > From: Jonathan Neuschäfer > > Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > To: Eco-Conscious Computing > > Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] sifive sells a riscv cpu mainboard > > Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 18:49:36 +0100 > > > > > On Mon, Feb 05, 2018 at 12:39:57PM -0500, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > > Can you tell if the mainboard is free software foundation > > compliant? > > As far as I understand, yes. Then I got the video wrong. I thought his listing of not open source devices about the riscv mainboard would negate fsf compliance. > No, MALI is (AFAIK) not available as a separate chip, so you can't put > it on a board if the SoC doesn't already have it. I did not know. Apparently you then cannot buy a bag of mali devices? > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From j.neuschaefer at gmx.net Sun Feb 11 19:02:35 2018 From: j.neuschaefer at gmx.net (Jonathan =?utf-8?Q?Neusch=C3=A4fer?=) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 20:02:35 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] sifive sells a riscv cpu mainboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180211190235.3ksyc2k5ftpqxr43@latitude> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 12:18:21PM -0500, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Jonathan Neuschäfer > Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk > To: Eco-Conscious Computing > Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] sifive sells a riscv cpu mainboard > Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 00:40:03 +0100 > > > On Mon, Feb 05, 2018 at 03:05:03PM -0500, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: [...] > > > Can you tell if the mainboard is free software foundation > > > compliant? > > > > As far as I understand, yes. > > Then I got the video wrong. I thought his listing of not open > source devices about the riscv mainboard would negate > fsf compliance. I'm not an expert on FSF compliance (by which you mean compliance to the criteria of FSF's RYF program, I assume), but the Hifive Unleashed is better on the Hardware freedom side than any computer that was certified as "Respects Your Freedom" so far, and (AFAIK) not worse on the software freedom side. Whether SiFive (or anyone else) will request RYF certification for the Hifive Unleased is a separate question, that I cannot answer. > > No, MALI is (AFAIK) not available as a separate chip, so you can't put > > it on a board if the SoC doesn't already have it. > > I did not know. Apparently you then cannot buy a bag of > mali devices? That's right. You can buy a bag of devices that contain MALI (e.g. ARM-based SoCs from Allwinner or some other vendors), but not a bag of devices that contain *only* MALI (i.e. dedicated MALI GPUs). [ I guess you *could* run a SoC with MALI in it in a PCIe target mode and control the MALI remotely over PCIe, and thus use the SoC as sort of a "remote MALI" chip, but I guess that's very much besides the point. ] Jonathan Neuschäfer From phil at hands.com Sun Feb 11 19:31:40 2018 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 20:31:40 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87y3jzqq5f.fsf@whist.hands.com> On Sun, 11 Feb 2018, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: ... > Lkcl, is my phrasing that annoying or offensive or confusing > to you that you believe it is fine to ask me to limit my free > speech? Make your argument. People assuming a right to free speech is so perochial, it's just cute. Free speech is nothing that you get to demand when you are asking to have your email forwarded by a privately owned server located outside the USA. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sun Feb 11 19:59:10 2018 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 14:59:10 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] RK3399 Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Pičugins Arsenijs Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: "arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk" Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] RK3399 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2018 13:38:40 +0200 For your information, I am in a censorship dispute with lkcl. I do not know what he will come up with. Maybe some or all of my posts will be stopped. > Yep, thankfully, the laptop will likely take a while anyway. What I'd personally be interested in is making it all work before the start of next EOMA crowdfunding, or maybe during it (so that the crowdfunding gets some more publicity and is taken even more seriously). When the pc card is being shipped there will be no cabinet or a 15inch notebook available in terms of cabinets with a display. I agree the more different cabinet sizes present, even if modified computer cabinets, the better. I do not follow lkcl's opposition on this. > I'm mostly interested in desktop sharing from my side, so that I can show how to draw a simple board. No other requirements from your side, webcam definitely not needed (though having a voice channel would be great). If you're interested, I can stream my desktop to something like Twitch, so that you can view it (and whoever else wants to). Yes. > Great! Once we'll have first boards (say, keyboard matrix), we might require some more tools - but nothing expensive or complicated. Do you have a photo of your soldering iron somewhere (maybe a similar photo on the internet) - just to make sure it's the right one for the job? It is a weller sp 40l 40w. In case I did not mention it before. I have a raspberry pi 0 and a beaglebone black revision c if that could be useful. > I've measured connectors on my boards, and it looks like the right one. Worst case - I can desolder a connector from my boards and mail it to you. Notes: from these 28 pins, one is GND (for some reason) and one is NC (not connected), and two pairs of pins are in parallel. So, we'll need a microcontroller with 24 free GPIOs, or a cheap I2C IO expander added. Seeing how the keyboard is a 16x8 matrix, a GPIO expander could fit very well (alternatively, we could copy whatever solution is used in some kind of popular DIY keyboards, provided we can find one that suits the row/column count). I will get the ribbonconnector. I still have the asus eeepc's mainboard. The pocketchip's keyboard is an i2c keyboard. Is the asus eeepc's keyboard also an i2c keyboard? Lkcl has said, the pc card supports i2c. Instead of modifying the asus eeepc's keyboard into an usb keyboard, what about i2c connecting the keyboard to the pc card? To my knowledge you can use the beaglebone black revision c to test i2c devices. I found a video on youtube on the matter. I have this forestalled remark. I would prefer not to cut in the asus eeepc's cabinet. If I do it wrongly, I do not have another cabinet. Instead at the bottom of the asus eeepc there is a removable plate. There is a balk which likely can be removed. I would prefer to insert the pc card by that plate. I have not been able to find something like the pcmcia/eoma 68 breakout board. Should we not find a shop to buy one? I will start a new post named 'asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card' for further postings. > bottom line: please do NOT design this circuit without public > consultation and without my FINAL approval. Thank you for your warning. And participation. > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sun Feb 11 20:05:17 2018 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 15:05:17 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card Message-ID: This post is about modifying an asus eeepc 7inch notebook into accepting a pc card. You are invite to contribute. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 20:13:45 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 15:13:45 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ron, it occurs to me that I may have something in my junk bin for you. Can you get me the model # of the LCD panel itself in that system? You'll have to take the lid apart... should be a bunch of mumbo-jumbo on the back of the panel in large letters. If you're not sure -- host a picture of the label on one of those many image-hosting sites out there, and post up the link here. I'll know it when I see it. From crimier at yandex.ru Sun Feb 11 20:20:28 2018 From: crimier at yandex.ru (=?utf-8?B?UGnEjXVnaW5zIEFyc2VuaWpz?=) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 22:20:28 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: <87y3jzqq5f.fsf@whist.hands.com> References: <87y3jzqq5f.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: <1214871518380428@web41o.yandex.ru> >>  Lkcl, is my phrasing that annoying or offensive or confusing >>  to you that you believe it is fine to ask me to limit my free >>  speech? Make your argument. > > People assuming a right to free speech is so perochial, it's just cute. > > Free speech is nothing that you get to demand when you are asking to have > your email forwarded by a privately owned server located outside the USA. I don't think he's referring to the USA First Amendment rights. I also believe that instantly associating the "free speech" mentions to a USA law is unnecessarily limiting the conversation. I think he's referring to the concept of "freedom of speech and expression", which is a concept people have been using for a long time, both in our benefit and to our peril, and which has influenced the laws in many countries, not just USA. Cheers! Arsenijs From crimier at yandex.ru Sun Feb 11 21:40:08 2018 From: crimier at yandex.ru (=?utf-8?B?UGnEjXVnaW5zIEFyc2VuaWpz?=) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 23:40:08 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1573261518385208@web45g.yandex.ru> > This post is about modifying an asus eeepc 7inch notebook into accepting > a pc card. You are invite to contribute. Following up on the "RK3399" email: > For your information, I am in a censorship dispute with lkcl. I do > not know what he will come up with. Maybe some or all of my > posts will be stopped. I'm going to get an EEEoma Wiki up in the following week and start documenting everything there; if you end up losing posting privileges, feel free to email me directly. > I do not follow lkcl's opposition on this. He's trying to make sure that the resulting design is safe and 1) won't ruin reputation of EOMA68 2) will be a good reference design for other designers that want to make EOMA68-compatible things, so that their designs won't ruin the EOMA68 reputation. > It is a weller sp 40l 40w. It seems to have a wide tip, so I'm wondering if it's suitable for soldering things like a 0.8-pitch connector... We'll see. At worst, you can get a working soldering iron for $5 from China, and a set of good tips for $5 more. > In case I did not mention it before. I have a raspberry pi 0 and > a beaglebone black revision c if that could be useful. Those could be useful for testing, I think. > I still have the asus eeepc's mainboard. That's great =) So we likely can harvest a couple of chips from it if necessary. > The pocketchip's keyboard is an i2c keyboard. Is the asus > eeepc's keyboard also an i2c keyboard? The pocketchip's keyboard, just like the EEE PC keyboard, is not I2C by itself - it's a key matrix, and there's usually a controller that connects to this key matrix. In PocketCHIP's case, it talks I2C - in case of EEE PC, that controller is a part of Embedded Controller on the EEE PC mainboard (which controls a whole load of functions), so we're making our own controller by taking a microcontroller, putting it on a board with a 28-pin connector and writing a firmware for it. > Instead of > modifying the asus eeepc's keyboard into an usb > keyboard, what about i2c connecting the keyboard to > the pc card? Either that, or use PS2 - since we likely will have a PS2-USB chip anyway (for the touchpad). The benefit of using PS/2 is that we won't need to write our own kernel driver - however, we will need to find a way to reliably source PS2-UAB converter chips, or converter boards. > To my knowledge you can use the > beaglebone black revision c to test i2c devices. You can also use the Pi Zero for the same task, if I understand you correctly (just FYI). > I have this forestalled remark. I would prefer not to cut > in the asus eeepc's cabinet. If I do it wrongly, I do not have > another cabinet. Hmm. That's tricky - I was planning to suggest the "cutting" approach, but I don't know of a good way to cut into the cabinet so that it's easy and mistake-proof. Thankfully, I have 2 spare cases to experiment with, and I have some ideas =) > Instead at the bottom of the asus eeepc there is a removable > plate. There is a balk which likely can be removed. I would > prefer to insert the pc card by that plate. I'll measure it and see if it's suitable - that is, if we can even insert the card. I can't yet imagine how it would work, but I will think about it. (the space inside the EEE case is quite limited, so there's only so many ways to keep the card in). > I have not been able to find something like the pcmcia/eoma > 68 breakout board. Should we not find a shop to buy > one? I haven't yet found PCMCIA breakouts (or EOMA68 breakouts, for that matter), so it's not a commodity item, and I'm guessing that places that have them will have it at high prices, just because it's not that popular. Lkcl has breakouts listed on Crowdsupply, but I imagine there's some time until they will be manufactured and available. Until that, we can either work on other tasks - and, later on, we can design our own breakouts if it proves necessary. Cheers! Arsenijs From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 21:51:33 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 16:51:33 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: <1573261518385208@web45g.yandex.ru> References: <1573261518385208@web45g.yandex.ru> Message-ID: Quick post from my phone -- existing PCMCIA card cages from random laptops are a dime-a-dozen on fleaBay, if you want to go that route. They would likely need minor modifications to the keying, but that's hardly a showstopper. Ron, did you see my previous email? I have an LCD panel that may work for you, to replace the original in the Eee - but I won't know if it's compatible, without that part number. If it *is* compatible, I'll ask you to cover shipping costs and that's all. I know /almost/ for a fact that my display will work with an EOMA68 card, as it takes a parallel TTL input -- somewhere I think I have the datasheet -- I just need your part number to know if they are physically interchangeable without getting out the craft knife... I suspect the aspect ratios are different, though -- mine is straight SVGA (800x600), and IIRC, Eee PC netbooks were always widescreen -- either 800x480 or 1024x600... On Feb 11, 2018 4:40 PM, "Pičugins Arsenijs" wrote: > > This post is about modifying an asus eeepc 7inch notebook into accepting > > a pc card. You are invite to contribute. > > Following up on the "RK3399" email: > > > For your information, I am in a censorship dispute with lkcl. I do > > not know what he will come up with. Maybe some or all of my > > posts will be stopped. > > I'm going to get an EEEoma Wiki up in the following week and start > documenting everything there; if you end up losing posting privileges, feel > free to email me directly. > > > I do not follow lkcl's opposition on this. > > He's trying to make sure that the resulting design is safe and 1) won't > ruin reputation of EOMA68 2) will be a good reference design for other > designers that want to make EOMA68-compatible things, so that their designs > won't ruin the EOMA68 reputation. > > > It is a weller sp 40l 40w. > > It seems to have a wide tip, so I'm wondering if it's suitable for > soldering things like a 0.8-pitch connector... We'll see. At worst, you can > get a working soldering iron for $5 from China, and a set of good tips for > $5 more. > > > In case I did not mention it before. I have a raspberry pi 0 and > > a beaglebone black revision c if that could be useful. > > Those could be useful for testing, I think. > > > I still have the asus eeepc's mainboard. > > That's great =) So we likely can harvest a couple of chips from it if > necessary. > > > The pocketchip's keyboard is an i2c keyboard. Is the asus > > eeepc's keyboard also an i2c keyboard? > > The pocketchip's keyboard, just like the EEE PC keyboard, is not I2C by > itself - it's a key matrix, and there's usually a controller that connects > to this key matrix. In PocketCHIP's case, it talks I2C - in case of EEE PC, > that controller is a part of Embedded Controller on the EEE PC mainboard > (which controls a whole load of functions), so we're making our own > controller by taking a microcontroller, putting it on a board with a 28-pin > connector and writing a firmware for it. > > > Instead of > > modifying the asus eeepc's keyboard into an usb > > keyboard, what about i2c connecting the keyboard to > > the pc card? > > Either that, or use PS2 - since we likely will have a PS2-USB chip anyway > (for the touchpad). The benefit of using PS/2 is that we won't need to > write our own kernel driver - however, we will need to find a way to > reliably source PS2-UAB converter chips, or converter boards. > > > To my knowledge you can use the > > beaglebone black revision c to test i2c devices. > > You can also use the Pi Zero for the same task, if I understand you > correctly (just FYI). > > > I have this forestalled remark. I would prefer not to cut > > in the asus eeepc's cabinet. If I do it wrongly, I do not have > > another cabinet. > > Hmm. That's tricky - I was planning to suggest the "cutting" approach, but > I don't know of a good way to cut into the cabinet so that it's easy and > mistake-proof. Thankfully, I have 2 spare cases to experiment with, and I > have some ideas =) > > > Instead at the bottom of the asus eeepc there is a removable > > plate. There is a balk which likely can be removed. I would > > prefer to insert the pc card by that plate. > > I'll measure it and see if it's suitable - that is, if we can even insert > the card. I can't yet imagine how it would work, but I will think about it. > (the space inside the EEE case is quite limited, so there's only so many > ways to keep the card in). > > > I have not been able to find something like the pcmcia/eoma > > 68 breakout board. Should we not find a shop to buy > > one? > > I haven't yet found PCMCIA breakouts (or EOMA68 breakouts, for that > matter), so it's not a commodity item, and I'm guessing that places that > have them will have it at high prices, just because it's not that popular. > Lkcl has breakouts listed on Crowdsupply, but I imagine there's some time > until they will be manufactured and available. Until that, we can either > work on other tasks - and, later on, we can design our own breakouts if it > proves necessary. > > Cheers! > Arsenijs > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From crimier at yandex.ru Sun Feb 11 21:58:32 2018 From: crimier at yandex.ru (=?utf-8?B?UGnEjXVnaW5zIEFyc2VuaWpz?=) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 23:58:32 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: <1573261518385208@web45g.yandex.ru> Message-ID: <116011518386312@web43j.yandex.ru> > Quick post from my phone -- existing PCMCIA card cages from random laptops > are a dime-a-dozen on fleaBay, if you want to go that route. They would > likely need minor modifications to the keying, but that's hardly a > showstopper. True, but they have proprietary pinouts, can easily be as big as to be unwieldly, and they're more expensive - I just checked Taobao and a PCMCIA socket there is 72 cents, I'll get 10pcs. > Ron, did you see my previous email? I have an LCD panel that may work for > you, to replace the original in the Eee - but I won't know if it's > compatible, without that part number. If it *is* compatible, I'll ask you > to cover shipping costs and that's all. I can check it tomorrow, too - I'm not at my workplace right now. I also imagine you can look up eBay for "asus eee 701 panel" and find the model numbers. > I know /almost/ for a fact that my display will work with an EOMA68 card, > as it takes a parallel TTL input -- somewhere I think I have the datasheet > -- I just need your part number to know if they are physically > interchangeable without getting out the craft knife... I suspect the aspect > ratios are different, though -- mine is straight SVGA (800x600), and IIRC, > Eee PC netbooks were always widescreen -- either 800x480 or 1024x600... Right, EEE PC 701 has a 800x480 screen. So, I'm guessing that the display bezel mod will be necessary, too. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 22:05:02 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 17:05:02 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: <116011518386312@web43j.yandex.ru> References: <1573261518385208@web45g.yandex.ru> <116011518386312@web43j.yandex.ru> Message-ID: I'll see what I can find on the screen... eBay does not reliably list model #s but who knows. Oh -- and for the keyboard -- look into the work done with custom keyboards and a microcontroller called the "Teensy" -- the code should be compatible with an Arduino Micro -- of which cheap clones can be had on eBay. To be clear, you want the Arduino MICRO with the ATMEGA32U4 in it, and specifically NOT the similar Arduino NANO with the ATMEGA328 in it. The '32U4 part has on-chip USB so you can do USB-HID stuff with it. I will warn you that the cheap Arduino clone boards tend to use a particularly touchy voltage regulator -- I've fried one of those boards that way, it's not hard... On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Pičugins Arsenijs wrote: > > Quick post from my phone -- existing PCMCIA card cages from random > laptops > > are a dime-a-dozen on fleaBay, if you want to go that route. They would > > likely need minor modifications to the keying, but that's hardly a > > showstopper. > > True, but they have proprietary pinouts, can easily be as big as to be > unwieldly, and they're more expensive - I just checked Taobao and a PCMCIA > socket there is 72 cents, I'll get 10pcs. > > > Ron, did you see my previous email? I have an LCD panel that may work for > > you, to replace the original in the Eee - but I won't know if it's > > compatible, without that part number. If it *is* compatible, I'll ask you > > to cover shipping costs and that's all. > > I can check it tomorrow, too - I'm not at my workplace right now. I also > imagine you can look up eBay for "asus eee 701 panel" and find the model > numbers. > > > I know /almost/ for a fact that my display will work with an EOMA68 card, > > as it takes a parallel TTL input -- somewhere I think I have the > datasheet > > -- I just need your part number to know if they are physically > > interchangeable without getting out the craft knife... I suspect the > aspect > > ratios are different, though -- mine is straight SVGA (800x600), and > IIRC, > > Eee PC netbooks were always widescreen -- either 800x480 or 1024x600... > > Right, EEE PC 701 has a 800x480 screen. So, I'm guessing that the display > bezel mod will be necessary, too. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From pablo at parobalth.org Sun Feb 11 22:10:43 2018 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo Rath) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 23:10:43 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180211221042.tfccnuqy7bkylzza@cherry> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 03:05:17PM -0500, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > This post is about modifying an asus eeepc 7inch notebook into accepting > a pc card. You are invite to contribute. I find the idea to turn an asus eeepc 7inch notebook into an EOMA68 housing very interesting. I don't have the knowledge to contribute at the current stage. I recommend to use the terms of the glossary right from the beginning (https://elinux.org/Embedded_Open_Modular_Architecture/EOMA68#Glossary_of_Terms). So I think the above statement from Ron should better be phrased: "This post is about modifiying an asus eeepc 7inch notebook to work as a housing for an EOMA68-card." I don't want to appear overly nitpicky but I think common terms are important to avoid misunderstanding. Good luck with the project and happy hacking! kind regards Pablo From crimier at yandex.ru Sun Feb 11 22:15:22 2018 From: crimier at yandex.ru (=?utf-8?B?UGnEjXVnaW5zIEFyc2VuaWpz?=) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 00:15:22 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: <1573261518385208@web45g.yandex.ru> <116011518386312@web43j.yandex.ru> Message-ID: <1187591518387322@web12j.yandex.ru> > Oh -- and for the keyboard -- look into the work done with custom keyboards > and a microcontroller called the "Teensy" -- the code should be compatible > with an Arduino Micro -- of which cheap clones can be had on eBay. To be > clear, you want the Arduino MICRO with the ATMEGA32U4 in it, and > specifically NOT the similar Arduino NANO with the ATMEGA328 in it. The > '32U4 part has on-chip USB so you can do USB-HID stuff with it. A Teensy could work, indeed. The issue is - the keyboard needs 24 (16+8) pins. Now that I think of it, we can use 32U4, it has 8 PCINT pins (that we can use for 8 rows) and there are 18 GPIOs remaining - enough to implement I2C (without the INT pin, though) or PS/2 - or, indeed, use USB. > I will warn > you that the cheap Arduino clone boards tend to use a particularly touchy > voltage regulator -- I've fried one of those boards that way, it's not > hard... Does the regulator come into play if we feed the ATMega32U4 from either 5V or 3.3V directly into VCC? I guess it doesn't. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 22:24:22 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 17:24:22 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: <1187591518387322@web12j.yandex.ru> References: <1573261518385208@web45g.yandex.ru> <116011518386312@web43j.yandex.ru> <1187591518387322@web12j.yandex.ru> Message-ID: The regulator does not come into play if you feed it directly with 5v. I don't think the 3.3v pin is an allowable input, though... I remember that the 5v pin can go either way like that, but I dunno about the 3.3v one. Personally, if you're feeding it /regulated/ 5v -- desolder the regulator. You're better off without it. It's a little four-pin SOT that looks like a transistor with a tab pin... the specific part number is A1117. Word to the wise on the $5-8 eBay USB soldering irons -- they work remarkably well, but use ONLY with a power bank. There's a Scottish bloke on YouTube calls himself "Big Clive Dot Com" -- he has a segment from 2016 or so on these irons, and he explains why I'm saying this far better than I can explain it myself. Go watch the episode, it's here (~20min, and worth every second) --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-8D5t6TJYU ...also... If eBay is to be believed on part numbers here -- you should have an AUO brand A070VW04 screen in that thing. If it's a stock screen, then according to what I'm looking at, you don't need my display, you've already got one that's 24bit TTL parallel. Here's the datasheet I found --> http://www.taopanel.com/ auo/datasheet/A070VW04-V0.pdf If youi WANT my display -- again, just pay shipping -- I can send it along. I'll get model # and datasheet upon profession of interest. It'll give you a few extra pixels, if you put it in, but you'll definitely need to cut down that ginormous bezel to fit the thing -- it looks like they put a seven inch display in a ten inch netbook, ha! (Insert inevitable intelligence-comparison joke here.) I do remember that it was from a real cheap pile-of-doodoo "eReader" tablet that my mother bought herself about three months before Borders Books fell flat... Velocity Micro Cruz R101 is the make and model. Usual horribly-cheap fare... it was probably outdated when new. It never went above IIRC Android 2.something IIRC, had a 600MHz or so VIA SoC that was probably overclocked and inevitably undercooled, and was just all-around awful to use. It positively /reeked/ of cheap. On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 5:15 PM, Pičugins Arsenijs wrote: > > Oh -- and for the keyboard -- look into the work done with custom > keyboards > > and a microcontroller called the "Teensy" -- the code should be > compatible > > with an Arduino Micro -- of which cheap clones can be had on eBay. To be > > clear, you want the Arduino MICRO with the ATMEGA32U4 in it, and > > specifically NOT the similar Arduino NANO with the ATMEGA328 in it. The > > '32U4 part has on-chip USB so you can do USB-HID stuff with it. > > A Teensy could work, indeed. The issue is - the keyboard needs 24 (16+8) > pins. Now that I think of it, we can use 32U4, it has 8 PCINT pins (that we > can use for 8 rows) and there are 18 GPIOs remaining - enough to implement > I2C (without the INT pin, though) or PS/2 - or, indeed, use USB. > > > I will warn > > you that the cheap Arduino clone boards tend to use a particularly touchy > > voltage regulator -- I've fried one of those boards that way, it's not > > hard... > > Does the regulator come into play if we feed the ATMega32U4 from either 5V > or 3.3V directly into VCC? I guess it doesn't. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From eaterjolly at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 09:59:41 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 04:59:41 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/6/18, Jean Flamelle wrote: > On 2/5/18, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:28 PM, wrote: >> >>> If I write: Lkcl, can you ... >>> Then I want you to answer. >>> If I write: Can lkcl ... >>> Then all on the email list may answer. >> >> the list's name is "arm-netbooks", best to refer to everyone on it by >> that, rather than confuse the use of my personal initials of my >> personal name? >> >> l. > > A lead participating in community as a regular member, is important. > This is difficult task not many will understand the value of, much > less appreciate. > > If we don't address Luke directly, we depreciate a great deal of energy. > Exaggerating what many could answer, deprives meaning from those few > or the only one who can answer rigorously accurate. > > Transparency requires tinted windows. > Openness requires passionate effort. > On 2/11/18, Pičugins Arsenijs wrote: > >>> Lkcl, is my phrasing that annoying or offensive or confusing >>> to you that you believe it is fine to ask me to limit my free >>> speech? Make your argument. >> >> People assuming a right to free speech is so perochial, it's just cute. >> >> Free speech is nothing that you get to demand when you are asking to have >> your email forwarded by a privately owned server located outside the USA. > > I don't think he's referring to the USA First Amendment rights. I also > believe that instantly associating the "free speech" mentions to a USA law > is unnecessarily limiting the conversation. I think he's referring to the > concept of "freedom of speech and expression", which is a concept people > have been using for a long time, both in our benefit and to our peril, and > which has influenced the laws in many countries, not just USA. > > Cheers! > Arsenijs We are forgetting the underlining point and letting this get political. All in all the point is that it was "RUDE"! This has nothing to do with free speech and only to do with Common Courtesy. If someone is going to great lengths to participate in a conversation, atleast recognize that they are in the metaphorical room. Gosh... From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Tue Feb 13 18:44:02 2018 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 13:44:02 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Pičugins Arsenijs Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 23:40:08 +0200 > It seems to have a wide tip, so I'm wondering if it's suitable for soldering things like a 0.8-pitch connector... It has a swappable solder iron head. The solder iron head I have looks like a screwdriver. It is about 3mm wide. I have bought another solder iron head. Shaped like a pencil. > The pocketchip's keyboard, just like the EEE PC keyboard, is not I2C by itself I understand now. A controller is required. For i2c or usb. > I have an LCD panel that may work for > you I think the plan is to use the display the computer came with. I would want to know which display model it is I have. I have refrained from dismantling the display part because it was already difficult to remove the mainboard. The cabinet got some nicks. > checked Taobao and a PCMCIA socket there Can you write a link? > I find the idea to turn an asus eeepc 7inch notebook into an EOMA68 > housing very interesting Yes, that should have been the email's subject but we are not starting a new post because of that. > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 18:51:32 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 13:51:32 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the lid assembly in that netbook is standard, it should be relatively easy to get into. There will be screws hidden, usually under the rubber bumpers that prevent scuff marks from appearing on the keyboard/base part when you close the lid. Take out those screws and run a "spudger" or a small hobby knife (of the "exacto" variety) around the edge to release several inevitable sets of catches. The bezel should come right off. You will likely have to then remove more screws to remove the LCD panel proper, as the information you want is on its back. Be careful with cables -- they are typically a little fragile -- and your netbook is old enough that repair parts sources on eBay are starting to dwindle... From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Feb 13 19:07:50 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 19:07:50 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: <1573261518385208@web45g.yandex.ru> References: <1573261518385208@web45g.yandex.ru> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Pičugins Arsenijs wrote: >> I do not follow lkcl's opposition on this. there's no "opposition" ron. > He's trying to make sure that the resulting design is safe and 1) won't ruin reputation of EOMA68 2) will be a good reference design for other designers that want to make EOMA68-compatible things, so that their designs won't ruin the EOMA68 reputation. correct. arsenijs i leave it up to you to explain it to ron's satisfaction. anyone is permitted to use the word "EOMA68"... *ONLY* if it meets ***MY*** approval. that means you follow the rules that *** I and I alone *** set, regarding EOMA68. this is to ensure that you do not end up killing someone through a lithium battery fire because you didn't fucking well listen... and the fire investigators do not go "oh it's an EOMA68 product... shut those fuckers down NOW"... and the parents of the child whom you effectively murdered through your highly irresponsible negligence try to sue *** ME *** because *** YOU *** broke Trademark Law by putting "EOMA68" on the product without my explicit consent and authorisation, and did not go through and did not respect that there has to be a proper and full audit and review of the entire product - by me - before you can use the (copyrighted) phrase "EOMA68". bottom line: you are free to do whatever you like.... *IF* you do NOT mention IN ANY WAY that you and your product are directly or indirectly associated with EOMA68. if however you want to mention "EOMA68" anywhere on the product or the website, you REQUIRE MY PERMISSION TO DO SO and need to do EXACTLY WHAT I ASK. this is Trademark Law. it exists for a damn good reason. if this is unacceptable to you, if you cannot accept that Trademark Law applies, if you do not recognise that i am the sole exclusive Copyright holder of the EOMA68 Certification Mark, if you are unable or unwilling to respect the compliance requirements for the *FULL* EOMA68 Specification, you should stop using the phrase "EOMA68"... *right now*. this is really important that you understand and accept, ok? > I haven't yet found PCMCIA breakouts (or EOMA68 breakouts, for that matter), same difference... digikey have some PCMCIA connectors available: they'll get you started at least. yes i do have some (at the factory in china), i may have some at the flat in taiwan, i'll have to dig them out. if you can look on digikey for PCCARD or PCMCIA connectors or anywhere else, just to get some sort of breakout board, go for those. i'd recommend the through-hole ones as you can solder directly to the pins if necessary. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Feb 13 19:17:55 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 19:17:55 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 5:09 PM, wrote: > considered my phrasing short, effective and direct. I do not > see, why lkcl should limit my free speech on such a minor thing. > I should not have gotten the request in the first place. but you *aren't* free, ron - not in this case. this is not a forum for "free speech". you are here because you are a guest of mine, where i get to set the rules - not you. you are required to respect Copyright Law - which applies SPECIFICALLY to EOMA68 - and you are NOT free to do whatever you like. you seem to believe that you have the right to do whatever you want: you don't. every time i have asked you to respect my authority you have ducked or ignored the question. now, i am going to ask you a REALLY simple question, and i am going to REQUIRE that you explicitly answer. do you, ron wirring, accept that i am the SOLE EXCLUSIVE Copyright Holder of the EOMA68 Standard? please answer simply yes or no. if you do not answer "yes" within 72 hours i will be forced to simply unsubscribe you from this list as your continued - long-standing - lack of respect for my authority can reasonably be interpreted to be a threat not just to the project but also to the safety of ordinary non-technical end-users. also if you do not answer "yes" i will NOT grant you permission, AS IS MY RIGHT UNDER COPYRIGHT LAW, to utilise the word "EOMA68" in ANY way, shape or form. are we absolutely clear, ron? l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 19:23:22 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 14:23:22 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Isn't that a little harsh? Particularly with respect to the time limit. Suppose he gets bumped by some old lady's jeep and can't respond in time because he's in hospital. Unlikely, but possible. Also, I will point out that there are ways for Ron to feck around with you -- calling it a "PCMCIA computer card", for example. We all know that there's only one of those and so we know EXACTLY what it refers to -- but because it's not the specific sequence of letters and numbers you've trademarked, you can't do anything to reign him in -- despite the fact that you'll probably still have the same liability concerns. Don't make enemies where you don't have to, Luke. I'm just sayin'. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Feb 13 19:34:09 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 19:34:09 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Isn't that a little harsh? considering that ron's response time has consistently been within that timeframe... i didn't initially believe so. > Particularly with respect to the time limit. > Suppose he gets bumped by some old lady's jeep and can't respond in time > because he's in hospital. Unlikely, but possible. true. if that turns out to be the case, i have no problem with that. Trademark Law, as best i understand it, *requires* that i be "reasonable"... so... yes, thank you for picking up on that, chris. > Also, I will point out that there are ways for Ron to feck around with you > -- calling it a "PCMCIA computer card", for example. true... however Trademark Law *is* sufficiently flexible to recognise these kinds of tricks. it's... time-consuming to go through the process of *proving* that such... underhanded tricks have been "played"... but if there is a reasonable threat to life (as well as the reputation of a Certification Mark) as caused *by* someone trying to weasle their way out of respecting Copyright Law.... *and* it can be demonstrated that - through messages *right here on this list* that they have indeed tried to copy a concept and are intending to bring it into disrepute in the process.... you get where that's going, i'm sure. > Don't make enemies where you don't have to, Luke. I'm just sayin'. i am not permitted to think in those terms, chris. i am *REQUIRED* to protect the EOMA68 Certification Mark. friends or enemies does not come into the decision-making process, and could actually be viewed as VIOLATING the obliigations of Trademark Law by not being "Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory" (FRAND). treating someone as a "friend"... and giving them *special privileges*... that could *definitely* be considered to be a violation of the obligations of a Copyright Holder of a Certification Mark. sorry... but that's just how it is. i can't mess about here. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 19:46:37 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 14:46:37 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think you're being a bit literal there. I don't see any problem with what Ron is doing. As far as I can tell, he's well within US Copyright Law's "Fair Use" clause (17 USC Section 107). I realize it's more likely to be the Berne Convention that would apply here -- but the Fair Use Clause is something of a benchmark. I don't see that Ron is intending to derive personal gain or profit from the use case he's come up with. He's just kind of trying to have fun with a hobbyist project. Even if that hobbyist project ends up on e.g. Instructables -- that doesn't reflect on YOU anywhere near as much as it does HIM. Technically, yes, you've made the project possible, but it's HIS project, and it's made pretty clear to anyone who subsequently takes on that project that THEY as a third party (at best) are personally liable for their own feckups -- and I would bet a goodly sum of money (if I had it) that the courts would be all to glad to remind them of this, if it came to that. You'd probably even be able to recoup court costs if anyone was stupid enough to challenge you directly on that one -- it's simply too well established. Forgive me for sayin' -- but you're coming across as something of a bully here. Your concerns are largely unfounded, given a reasonable, fair, and equitable court system... which, at least for these purposes, is something quite reasonable to expect. I realize I'm not in command, but I'm still going to ask you politely to lay off here. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Feb 13 19:59:52 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 19:59:52 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 7:46 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > I think you're being a bit literal there. I don't see any problem with what > Ron is doing. As far as I can tell, he's well within US Copyright Law's > "Fair Use" clause (17 USC Section 107). I realize it's more likely to be > the Berne Convention that would apply here -- but the Fair Use Clause is > something of a benchmark. > > I don't see that Ron is intending to derive personal gain or profit from > the use case he's come up with. He's just kind of trying to have fun with a > hobbyist project. ... which is actually *more* dangerous for EOMA68 than anything else, because of the risk to life through failure to properly respect the EOMA68 Standard. > Even if that hobbyist project ends up on e.g. > Instructables -- that doesn't reflect on YOU anywhere near as much as it > does HIM. if there is ABSOLUTELY NO mention of "EOMA68" in the (hypothetical) documentation on Instructables.... that would be the case, yes. if however there is ANY MENTION of EOMA68 on the (hypothetical) documentation, and as a result of (hypothetical) culpable negligance someone ends up dead, then it DOES reflect on me... and as the guardian of the EOMA68 Standard i have to take that really REALLY seriously. this isn't like Arduino. EOMA68 is a mass-volume standard. >Technically, yes, you've made the project possible, but it's HIS > project, and it's made pretty clear to anyone who subsequently takes on > that project that THEY as a third party (at best) are personally liable for > their own feckups -- they are... as long as they do not try to claim that it has anything to do with EOMA68. this is Trademark Law. it's not just "plain Copyright Law", chris. ok let's give an example, here. RYF Certification. that's exactly the same. can you just go "i want to claim i am RYF Certified and that i represent the FSF" without *ACTUALLY* asking them for explicit permission to do so? > Forgive me for sayin' -- but you're coming across as something of a bully > here. Your concerns are largely unfounded, given a reasonable, fair, and > equitable court system... which, at least for these purposes, is something > quite reasonable to expect. I realize I'm not in command, but I'm still > going to ask you politely to lay off here. you can't do that, i'm sorry. you are not the Copyright Holder of the EOMA68 Standard. you are not an authorised, Certified representative, as authorised by me, the Copyright Holder of the EOMA68 Standard, and under Trademark Law i am obligated to inform you - politely - that your request cannot be honoured. it is with some regret that i have to inform you of that, as you have been so extremely understanding and supportive of this project. however this is really the first time that this has come up - so there may be a significant number of misunderstandings regarding the difference between "plain old Copright Law" and "Trademark Law" specifically as associated with "Certification Marks". can i recommend that you (and others) look up what the difference is? it would be very helpful for all of us to go over it. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 20:24:44 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 15:24:44 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ron is not doing anything that will harm your project, Luke. You're seeing daggers in shadows and neither are really there. The sort of thing that Ron is doing happens all the time, nobody in corporate anything has a real problem with it, and the liability is /always/ assigned to the person carrying out the work -- in this case that's a third or fourth party, not you -- if it wasn't like that, there wouldn't BE an Instructables website. There's a TON of precedent here that you're completely ignoring out of irrational fear. You're being extremely myopic and paranoid, without warrant, and --like I said-- you're becoming something of a bully because of it. God, the Universe, whatever you believe in -- SOMEBODY out there gave you a noggin. Use it properly. (Hint: how would the insurance industry deal with the possibility, even, of an Instructables-like website, if liability was assigned to the copyright/trademark/etc holder of the original equipment...?) I would also note that, given that precedent, you are in danger of doing almost exactly the thing you want to avoid -- giving (in this case quite negative) unwarranted special treatment to a particular party in exclusion of all others. Or do you really feel like you must have an iron grip on absolutely everyone and everything that does anything with your work? IIRC, that's what Sony tried to do with Betamax, and we all know how /that/ turned out... From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Feb 13 20:38:44 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 20:38:44 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 8:24 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Ron is not doing anything that will harm your project, Luke. he's calling into question my authority and the right as a Copyright Holder of the word - and standard - "EOMA68", chris. that's very very serious. and also publicly recorded. you can double-check that by re-reading the messages. i am REQUIRED to respond to that - by explicitly asserting that i AM the sole exclusive Copyright Holder of EOMA68 and that i AM the sole exclusive authority over the EOMA68 Standard, and that i cannot tolerate people claiming that they are blithely and arbitrarily permitted to ignore my authority under Copyright Law. i have to take this responsibility seriously, chris, otherwise we might as well shut the entire project down, right now. do you wish me to terminate this project - the list, the crowdfunding project, and to delete the EOMA68 standard page and to terminate the rhombus-tech project hosting - RIGHT NOW? please answer very simply, yes or no. i am quite happy to do so if people do not wish to take this seriously and respect my authority, position and role as the Copyright Holder and Guardian of the EOMA68 Standard. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 20:55:25 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 15:55:25 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't see that Ron is doing what you're asserting, therefore I cannot answer your question as you have requested me to do so. Ron is carrying out a hobbyist project with a product you are seeking to sell. Nothing more, nothing less. There are acres of paper in every law school's public library that attest to the fact that, historically, the liability for such projects lies with the hobbyist -- and that precedent goes back basically to the beginning of time. It's essentially unquestionable. (It's also good, old-fashioned common sense!) If you must insist on seeing that as something else, and therefore an existential threat to your own project, then you /really/ need to talk to your lawyers (and, perhaps, a few other professionals as well), because that would indicate that you have some significant learning to do. I would argue that that learning should come before any further progress on anything else happens, although as you rightly pointed out, I haven't the ability to enforce that sort of a thing. I understand that you have the /authority/ to shut him down. I myself am not questioning /that/ -- simply whether or not you should /use/ that authority. To me, that would be gross overreach. As a metaphor, I'll point out that every US President since 1945 or so has had the authority to essentially rain nuclear hell down over all of mankind. Thankfully, so far, every US President has seen fit not to use that authority. As I hinted last time, if what you are asserting was actually true, there would be no Instructables -- or, for that matter, Arduino, probably -- and the world would in fact be a very, very different place for it. I know I hate admitting when I'm wrong -- everybody does -- but sometimes it's easier (and it's always better) than insisting to the end that I'm right and going down in spectacular flames, somewhat like the Hindenburg. On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 8:24 PM, Christopher Havel > wrote: > > > Ron is not doing anything that will harm your project, Luke. > > he's calling into question my authority and the right as a Copyright > Holder of the word - and standard - "EOMA68", chris. that's very very > serious. and also publicly recorded. you can double-check that by > re-reading the messages. > > i am REQUIRED to respond to that - by explicitly asserting that i AM > the sole exclusive Copyright Holder of EOMA68 and that i AM the sole > exclusive authority over the EOMA68 Standard, and that i cannot > tolerate people claiming that they are blithely and arbitrarily > permitted to ignore my authority under Copyright Law. > > i have to take this responsibility seriously, chris, otherwise we > might as well shut the entire project down, right now. > > do you wish me to terminate this project - the list, the crowdfunding > project, and to delete the EOMA68 standard page and to terminate the > rhombus-tech project hosting - RIGHT NOW? > > please answer very simply, yes or no. > > i am quite happy to do so if people do not wish to take this > seriously and respect my authority, position and role as the Copyright > Holder and Guardian of the EOMA68 Standard. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Feb 13 21:01:23 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 21:01:23 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 8:55 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > I don't see that Ron is doing what you're asserting, please review the messages, it's very very clear. > therefore I cannot > answer your question as you have requested me to do so. > > Ron is carrying out a hobbyist project with a product you are seeking to > sell. NO chris. i am NOT permitted to sell product. please understand this! it is good that you are voicing these misunderstandings. Certification Mark holders are NOT PERMITTED TO SELL PRODUCT. i have to go: i am under time pressure here, please look up Cerficiation Marks ok? l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 21:05:47 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 16:05:47 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I honestly don't know of a message archive, and my skills at searching through ANY archive have historically been a bit lacking at best. When you have time, point me to (at least a few) specific messages in an archive that make your case, and I'll go from there. In the meantime, I still think it would be unwise to ban Ron. From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Tue Feb 13 21:21:38 2018 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 11:21:38 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/13/2018 11:05 AM, Christopher Havel wrote: > I honestly don't know of a message archive, and my skills at > searching through ANY archive have historically been a bit lacking > at best. When you have time, point me to (at least a few) specific > messages in an archive that make your case, and I'll go from there. The archive itself is here, which you can sort by sender. http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/ > > In the meantime, I still think it would be unwise to ban Ron. My sense has been that his disagreement is in list management and standards of polite list etiquette, not an issue with inappropriately moving forward with hardware modifications that are damaging to the standard. Still an issue, and one that could result in a ban from the list aside from certification mark infringement. Also, I can see that people on this list are reasonably held to a higher standard of adherence to the standard than the general public. After all, everyone here has access to the archives of design, and the ability to ask questions of everyone most involved in making this whole project happen. Tor - -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQr4UJuNOrSU9WDneS4ZgN1E0tI+wUCWoNW2wAKCRC4ZgN1E0tI +y5iAJwJTis3w7BBVinUcndtKEwt9qtJuACfa9IFEqtGu15Nk2VP29zxS9sJiZs= =rz8r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 22:58:03 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 17:58:03 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A belated thank you, Tor -- however, the burden of proof rightfully lies with Luke. Further, I have a room in my house to clean out after a catastrophic roof leak (not to mention an impending fight with insurance, which I'm most certainly not looking forward to), and a doctor's appointment on Friday to discuss the limp I've given myself in that now weeks-long process. I don't have the time -- nor do I have the inclination -- to sift and sort and filter through ten plus years of electronic conversation to prove myself wrong. As such, my request stands -- Luke, and specifically /only/ Luke (unless he appoints someone to his defense), when you have time, please present at least a few messages (or chains thereof) from which a case in your favor can be made. In the meantime, I'd ask what under the law would be called a "stay of execution" (pausing the clock) on banning Ron. No, I can't /force/ it, but it's the right thing to do during the controversy, which is why I'm /requesting/ it. From calmstorm at posteo.de Wed Feb 14 01:52:21 2018 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 20:52:21 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f14cc8a-8bb6-a7c8-958a-72d43942f05d@posteo.de> > he's calling into question my authority and the right as a Copyright > Holder of the word - and standard - "EOMA68", chris. that's very very > serious. and also publicly recorded. you can double-check that by > re-reading the messages. > > i am REQUIRED to respond to that - by explicitly asserting that i AM > the sole exclusive Copyright Holder of EOMA68 and that i AM the sole > exclusive authority over the EOMA68 Standard, and that i cannot > tolerate people claiming that they are blithely and arbitrarily > permitted to ignore my authority under Copyright Law. Ron seems to be testing your patience... I don't know if banning him will solve your problem, but I definitely think you should put him under moderation again.  I know I have made errors too in the past, but I know that challenging you is a very, very dumb and terrible idea. And he has gone way beyond anything stupid I have done on this mailing list. ;/ > > i have to take this responsibility seriously, chris, otherwise we > might as well shut the entire project down, right now. > > do you wish me to terminate this project - the list, the crowdfunding > project, and to delete the EOMA68 standard page and to terminate the > rhombus-tech project hosting - RIGHT NOW? > > please answer very simply, yes or no. Please do not shut this down.  I like this idea a lot. I look forward to the shakti processors big time for your modular laptop. :) > > i am quite happy to do so if people do not wish to take this > seriously and respect my authority, position and role as the Copyright > Holder and Guardian of the EOMA68 Standard. I do respect your authority given you didn't need to do this at all.  I am curious how close you are to sending the beta version. > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From onpon4 at riseup.net Wed Feb 14 04:30:49 2018 From: onpon4 at riseup.net (Julie Marchant) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 23:30:49 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> On 2018年02月13日 15:38, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > he's calling into question my authority and the right as a Copyright > Holder of the word - and standard - "EOMA68", chris. that's very very > serious. and also publicly recorded. you can double-check that by > re-reading the messages. > > i am REQUIRED to respond to that - by explicitly asserting that i AM > the sole exclusive Copyright Holder of EOMA68 and that i AM the sole > exclusive authority over the EOMA68 Standard, and that i cannot > tolerate people claiming that they are blithely and arbitrarily > permitted to ignore my authority under Copyright Law. Luke, I hope you don't find this to be pedantic, but if you do, I would point out that RMS is very vocal about this point. Copyright and trademark law are *not* the same thing. You can't hold a copyright on a name, only a trademark. This is an important distinction because the way copyright and trademark laws operate is not the same. As far as being "required to respond", I assume you are referring to the possibility of genericide of a trademark, when you lose a trademark because you fail to inform the public how it is properly used, causing it to be used to mean something more generic, e.g. if people started calling SEGA video games "Nintendos". This has nothing to do with "liability". It just has to do with whether or not a particular name can still be trademarked. Either that, or perhaps you are referring to some other law which is neither copyright nor trademark, and spreading confusion by using two wrong terms. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and none of this is legal advice. -- Julie Marchant https://onpon4.github.io Protect your emails with GnuPG: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Wed Feb 14 04:45:31 2018 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 23:45:31 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> References: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> Message-ID: <20180214044531.GA25930@topoi.pooq.com> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 11:30:49PM -0500, Julie Marchant wrote: > > Either that, or perhaps you are referring to some other law which is > neither copyright nor trademark, and spreading confusion by using two > wrong terms. In Canada, I've been old that standards marks are legally recognissed as such and are different from either copyright or trademarks. I do not now how this is elsewhere. -- hendrik From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Feb 14 09:24:33 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 09:24:33 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:05 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > I honestly don't know of a message archive, the specific message that i was referring to was only sent about 2 to 3 hours beforehand. you should be able to find it easily by re-reading only about 4 or 5 message back prior to your initial objection... which resulted in an extension of this thread. the archives are where they always have been: http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/ > In the meantime, I still think it would be unwise to ban Ron. i'm not "banning" him... unless he fails to understand and respect Copyright Law and my obligation to follow - to the letter - the FRAND procedures that are clearly documented in Trademark Law, specifically those which are relevant to Certification Marks. i do not get any choice in this matter, chris. l. From phil at hands.com Wed Feb 14 10:07:30 2018 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 11:07:30 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: <20180214044531.GA25930@topoi.pooq.com> References: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> <20180214044531.GA25930@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <87eflnrijh.fsf@whist.hands.com> On Wed, 14 Feb 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 11:30:49PM -0500, Julie Marchant wrote: >> >> Either that, or perhaps you are referring to some other law which is >> neither copyright nor trademark, and spreading confusion by using two >> wrong terms. > > In Canada, I've been old that standards marks are legally recognissed as > such and are different from either copyright or trademarks. I do not > now how this is elsewhere. IANAL, but I suspect that the confusion arises because Luke is (presumably) the sole copyright holder on the canonical documentation for the standard, so while there is a Certification Mark (which I think is mostly dealt with in line with Trademark law) the thing that defines what the Certification Mark actually means is a copyrighted work. Of course, mixing those things up, and making assertions about being forced to do things by Copyright Law when it was almost certainly meant to be Trademark Law does not help. On the other hand I'd say that Luke has free rein when it comes to moderating or expelling people on this list, so the justification is largely irrelevant ... although being even-handed about it is liable to ensure a better atmosphere amongst those who remain. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Feb 14 11:45:46 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 11:45:46 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: <87eflnrijh.fsf@whist.hands.com> References: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> <20180214044531.GA25930@topoi.pooq.com> <87eflnrijh.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 10:07 AM, Philip Hands wrote: > IANAL, but I suspect that the confusion arises because Luke is > (presumably) the sole copyright holder on the canonical documentation > for the standard, so while there is a Certification Mark (which I think > is mostly dealt with in line with Trademark law) the thing that defines > what the Certification Mark actually means is a copyrighted work. .... yes. my understanding is that Trademarks and Cerfitication Marks, by being covered *by* Copyright Law, are in effect a sub-branch of Copyright. > On the other hand I'd say that Luke has free rein when it comes to > moderating or expelling people on this list, so the justification is > largely irrelevant ... although being even-handed about it is liable to > ensure a better atmosphere amongst those who remain. the key thing is that i am *required* to be FRAND (fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory). if the entity known as "ronwirring" were just simply told to bugger off, he could perfectly reasonably claim, under trademark / certification mark / copyright law (whichever it is) that he had been "discriminated against" by me, the (copyright) owner of the EOMA68 Certification Mark. thus i *may* not either: (a) be nice and let people just do whatever they like (b) be heavy-handed and indiscriminately expel people from the list just because they're being an arse. the way round this is to ask the perfectly reasonable question, "are you going to follow the rules" and if the response is either "no" or there *is* no response... *then* i believe that my obligations have been met and i can then drop a shit-metric ton of bricks on their head. and not before then. complicated and not a lot of fun! anybody else wants this responsibility they're more than bloody well welcome to it. l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 12:31:16 2018 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 14:31:16 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Can someone explain me what this really means? Message-ID: I find it hard to believe, but here is some upstream code from Qualcomm no less for the snapdragon 845 and the adreno 630 gpu too. https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/dri-devel/2018-February/165668.html From onpon4 at riseup.net Wed Feb 14 14:33:30 2018 From: onpon4 at riseup.net (Julie Marchant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 09:33:30 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> <20180214044531.GA25930@topoi.pooq.com> <87eflnrijh.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: On 2018年02月14日 06:45, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > .... yes. my understanding is that Trademarks and Cerfitication > Marks, by being covered *by* Copyright Law, are in effect a sub-branch > of Copyright. No, copyright has nothing to do with them. Why do you think copyright has anything to do with anything you are doing? Copyright is a legal monopoly on the copying and distribution of a work. It was originally invented in Britain as a form of censorship, where the monarch would approve printers to print books in the form of a temporary monopoly. The current incarnation of copyright exists with the justification of encouraging the creation of works, e.g. books. It has nothing whatsoever to do with names or certifications. All that documentation could be in the public domain and it would make absolutely no difference. Heck, a lot of corporate logos are in the public domain; you can't copyright fonts, and logos like that of SONY are nothing but printed text, meaning they can't be copyrighted. IANAL, of course. > the key thing is that i am *required* to be FRAND (fair, reasonable > and non-discriminatory). if the entity known as "ronwirring" were > just simply told to bugger off, he could perfectly reasonably claim, > under trademark / certification mark / copyright law (whichever it is) > that he had been "discriminated against" by me, the (copyright) owner > of the EOMA68 Certification Mark. That's an issue with patent licensing, yet another completely different issue you're lumping together with this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminatory_licensing But let's assume that certification marks don't allow you to discriminate against people in relation to it. That would be the granting of certification. Have you threatened to deny certification arbitrarily? No? Good. No one has to be a member of a random mailing list to get certification for a product. Still not a lawyer, still not legal advice, of course. -- Julie Marchant https://onpon4.github.io Protect your emails with GnuPG: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Wed Feb 14 16:27:28 2018 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 10:27:28 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> <20180214044531.GA25930@topoi.pooq.com> <87eflnrijh.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 8:33 AM, Julie Marchant wrote: > On 2018年02月14日 06:45, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > .... yes. my understanding is that Trademarks and Cerfitication > > Marks, by being covered *by* Copyright Law, are in effect a sub-branch > > of Copyright. > > No, copyright has nothing to do with them. Why do you think copyright > has anything to do with anything you are doing? > > Copyright is a legal monopoly on the copying and distribution of a work. > It was originally invented in Britain as a form of censorship, where the > monarch would approve printers to print books in the form of a temporary > monopoly. The current incarnation of copyright exists with the > justification of encouraging the creation of works, e.g. books. It has > nothing whatsoever to do with names or certifications. All that > documentation could be in the public domain and it would make absolutely > no difference. Heck, a lot of corporate logos are in the public domain; > you can't copyright fonts, and logos like that of SONY are nothing but > printed text, meaning they can't be copyrighted. > > IANAL, of course. > > > the key thing is that i am *required* to be FRAND (fair, reasonable > > and non-discriminatory). if the entity known as "ronwirring" were > > just simply told to bugger off, he could perfectly reasonably claim, > > under trademark / certification mark / copyright law (whichever it is) > > that he had been "discriminated against" by me, the (copyright) owner > > of the EOMA68 Certification Mark. > That's an issue with patent licensing, yet another completely different > issue you're lumping together with this. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminatory_licensing > > But let's assume that certification marks don't allow you to > discriminate against people in relation to it. That would be the > granting of certification. Have you threatened to deny certification > arbitrarily? No? Good. No one has to be a member of a random mailing > list to get certification for a product. > > Still not a lawyer, still not legal advice, of course. > > -- > Julie Marchant > https://onpon4.github.io > > Protect your emails with GnuPG: > https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > It occurs to me that Luke is a citizen of the UK, and so may not be using US law. The question is which law is he using? That could change things quite a bit. (Which reminds me that outside of the US, giving legal advice is allowed, even if you aren't a lawyer) From onpon4 at riseup.net Wed Feb 14 17:01:03 2018 From: onpon4 at riseup.net (Julie Marchant) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 12:01:03 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> <20180214044531.GA25930@topoi.pooq.com> <87eflnrijh.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: On 2018年02月14日 11:27, Louis Pearson wrote: > It occurs to me that Luke is a citizen of the UK, and so may not be > using US law. Yes, but I see no reason to believe that the U.K. government would unreasonably intertwine these completely unrelated laws together in the way that Luke suggests. Of course, we do have to know exactly what we are talking about to discuss this properly. -- Julie Marchant https://onpon4.github.io Protect your emails with GnuPG: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 03:13:26 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 22:13:26 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> <20180214044531.GA25930@topoi.pooq.com> <87eflnrijh.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: Having reviewed the message in question (as near as I can determine... I believe it to be Ron's email, 11 Feb 2016 at 12:09pm) I still see no problems posed by what Ron is doing or saying. Luke, I notice that you have not directly responded to any of the ongoing commentary. I would invite you to speak up again and address what has been said since your last message. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 03:23:29 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 22:23:29 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> References: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> Message-ID: On 2/13/18, Julie Marchant wrote: > On 2018年02月13日 15:38, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> he's calling into question my authority and the right as a Copyright >> Holder of the word - and standard - "EOMA68", chris. that's very very >> serious. and also publicly recorded. you can double-check that by >> re-reading the messages. >> >> i am REQUIRED to respond to that - by explicitly asserting that i AM >> the sole exclusive Copyright Holder of EOMA68 and that i AM the sole >> exclusive authority over the EOMA68 Standard, and that i cannot >> tolerate people claiming that they are blithely and arbitrarily >> permitted to ignore my authority under Copyright Law. > > Luke, I hope you don't find this to be pedantic, but if you do, I would > point out that RMS is very vocal about this point. > > Copyright and trademark law are *not* the same thing. You can't hold a > copyright on a name, only a trademark. This is an important distinction > because the way copyright and trademark laws operate is not the same. > > As far as being "required to respond", I assume you are referring to the > possibility of genericide of a trademark, when you lose a trademark > because you fail to inform the public how it is properly used, causing > it to be used to mean something more generic, e.g. if people started > calling SEGA video games "Nintendos". This has nothing to do with > "liability". It just has to do with whether or not a particular name can > still be trademarked. > > Either that, or perhaps you are referring to some other law which is > neither copyright nor trademark, and spreading confusion by using two > wrong terms. > > Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and none of this is legal advice. > So this is a pretty solid reference: https://www.bitlaw.com/source/tmep/1306.html Basically the mark itself is currently ambiguous, so the only known attributes are the text EOMA68. Until an actual mark is finalized, EOMA68, in generic font, is the mark. This isn't a matter of "genericide" but rather certified versus uncertified. How is the distinction made? Does one just say this is an EOMA68 housing/card? Or, do they say they have EOMA68 certification? The standard usage Luke has maintained is to say something is EOMA68, so, if you're certified, you don't have to say you're certified. This means if you see the word EOMA68 that it is strictly certified. The name of the card is the Libre Tea, so that's what an hobbyist should say they are using. If a card is plugged into an uncertified housing, that card should no longer fits the criteria for the certification, assuming the standard is worded as it should be. Why so strict? Luke, wouldn't have to be strict if the certification mark read "certified EOMA68", however, the certification mark is simply "EOMA68", which tactically internationalizes the mark. This way it can be the same across countries with different languages and, anyone able to read those letters can trust the certification, regardless of if they can read the rest of the package. Say you're Chinese, if you see "EOMA-like" on a package then you might not understand the word like and assume wrongly that the card is EOMA68 certified. Luke is liable for that confusion, because, as a part of the standard, Luke could-have-and-chose-not-to make rules about what countries EOMA68 cards are allowed to be sold in and about what languages labels must be printed in. So let's say that someone wants to be extra-ecological and not use any packaging, simply having EOMA68 engraved on the card demonstrated certification. If someone resells damaged cards as new, certification mark violation could be a pathway to restitution where there aren't very strong purchaser protection laws. Luke could even define rules for what to disclose about the assurance checks done when reselling a used card. Depending on the jurisdiction, resellers would possibly have to cover or destroy the mark, if they violated any of those rules. A standard could become very intrusive, if you think about it, but only to protect principles. No matter how intrusive, it has to be FRAND or else courts will order it be dissolved. If someone is documenting their hobby projects, certifications shouldn't be mentioned and any certification marks should be covered in any images or videos. US law probably doesn't require this and protects their citizens from needing to do this, however Luke may then be required by the laws of other countries to request the content be geo-restricted and pursue the liability of the hosting website if the request isn't honored. The world of international incorporation is fucking complicated. Disclaimer: [what Julie said^] From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 05:32:02 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 00:32:02 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> Message-ID: It is also important to note that for all intensive an diy project could receive a certification. Also if you read the first line of that wikipedia article: "Reasonable and non-discriminatory (RAND) terms, also known as fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory (FRAND) terms, denote a voluntary licensing commitment that standards organizations often request from the owner of an intellectual property right (usually a patent) that is, or may become, essential to practice a technical standard." Reading between the lines, the point of the "intellectual property" is that it is the leverage has over companies. Without patents EOMA is only a word and EOMA has no legal authority to stop imitators from just using a slightly different word. With a patent however, a standards organization can legally issue a cease-and-desist order. So this brings up the tough question of how can the EOMA standard exert any authority without patents? Also what will motivate companies to hire Luke as a consultant? That's important too, am I wrong? Community support through donations wins Luke a certain degree of independence, so Luke won't have to charge many people consultation fees and can give advice more-solely based on merit. Here's an interesting question though: what motivates people to donate and will that scale as more companies gain interest causing Luke to inevitably need to train people to act as consultants on behalf of the EOMA project? My hope is, yes. One way to have leverage is for EOMA to become so popular, companies without the mark are actively avoided by a significant fraction of the population in given places. This is not to be underestimated, because food certifications have demonstrated a lot of success with this strategy. However we should also consider: The patent system isn't necessarily broken, if we consider the rampant abuse to be the result of scammers. We could see copyleft "public commons" patents which are licensed openly to the public so long as certain rules pertaining to certain morals are followed. Like with GPL violations, any member of the public should be able to make a lawsuit against a violator of these rules. With that possibility in mind, abuse could get worse with copyleft principles, because rules could be stupid or misguided. FRAND already comes into play with that, so there is already an appeals mechanism in place against abusive copyleft or open patent licenses (if I understand correctly). Perhaps patent courts could expand to judge as fair or unfair the rules of an open patent license. Then such standards organizations could form around protecting people and certain morals, by prosecuting violators of these open patents. Ultimately this could easily turn into an extortion racket with people living off of legal and consultation fees. Such an organization should live solely on donations and only conduct legal cases pro-bono. This is were things get weird. Aren't you asking, "wait if you just implied we should consider living off of consultation and legal fees immoral extortion, why are you defending patents as a form of leverage used by companies who would be able to do that extortion.. you look like you're contradicting yourself up and down"? Well, the fact remains the public benefits if the public shares the morals being protected. Legal cases write lots of documentation which the public might like to read, if well written. The more injustice an organization fights this way then the more journalism they have necessarily done and the more journalistic documents they can easily publish. This engineers a service that gratifies donors and will immediately stop if the donations also stop, motivating people not to be selfish. EOMA standards organizations can also thoroughly document (through transcripts, or audio or video journalism) what they were consulted about and the advice given, so that it becomes easily apparent if they were warning a company that they were consulting for about potential violations or if they instead ever used consultation fees as a mode of extortion. This mailing list shows EOMA off to a great start in terms open-ness and thorough journalistic documentation of everything going on. I fully support Luke and this project, and this is why I again draw connections between this project and the baby giant company Cloud Imperium Games, for their record-breakingly thorough self-journalism. I know they aren't FLOSS, but we need to be like them. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 05:54:21 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 00:54:21 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: <32aa04a2-3a2c-2436-e187-ccdb1e16dbe5@riseup.net> Message-ID: Quick post from phone, in my way to bed. Please excuse top-posting and occasional typos, if present. I have a proposal for Luke that I think would solve this problem instantly. Let there be two "levels" of EOMA68. "EOMA68" by itself can be construed from now on to mean "compatible with the standard in some reasonable way". Then, /with a separate and distinct but visually similar/ logo - "EOMA68 Certified", which is exactly that. Anything that can accept an EOMA68 CPU Card (Luke - is that still the right term for the card with the guts?) is at least EOMA68. That's your eBay-and-AliExpress bin, as well as where the hobbyists lurk, and everyone already knows that junk to be questionable at best, so we take advantage of that and use it for our own purposes. HOWEVER, we simultaneously make sure that everyone /also/ knows that the 'good stuff' is EOMA68-Certified. If it's not -Certified, then it's not trustworthy. Will it work? Maybe. We won't guarantee anything and we won't warranty anything that isn't -Certified. In fact, if we want to be paranoid and iron fisted - stick something in the license that voids all warranties if an EOMA68-Certified device is connected to an EOMA68 non-certified device. That's rude as heck, IMNSHO, but it does the job. Of course, that's the so called 'Freemium' way of doing things - I friggin hate 'freemium', it's usually incredibly dishonest - but, hey, maybe we can do it right. What say you, Luke? Float it or sink it... ow, my thumbs... g'nite ya'll... On Feb 15, 2018 12:32 AM, "Jean Flamelle" wrote: > It is also important to note that for all intensive an diy project > could receive a certification. > > Also if you read the first line of that wikipedia article: > > "Reasonable and non-discriminatory (RAND) terms, also known as fair, > reasonable, and non-discriminatory (FRAND) terms, denote a voluntary > licensing commitment that standards organizations often request from > the owner of an intellectual property right (usually a patent) that > is, or may become, essential to practice a technical standard." > > Reading between the lines, the point of the "intellectual property" is > that it is the leverage has over companies. Without patents EOMA is > only a word and EOMA has no legal authority to stop imitators from > just using a slightly different word. With a patent however, a > standards organization can legally issue a cease-and-desist order. > > So this brings up the tough question of how can the EOMA standard > exert any authority without patents? > > Also what will motivate companies to hire Luke as a consultant? That's > important too, am I wrong? > > Community support through donations wins Luke a certain degree of > independence, so Luke won't have to charge many people consultation > fees and can give advice more-solely based on merit. Here's an > interesting question though: what motivates people to donate and will > that scale as more companies gain interest causing Luke to inevitably > need to train people to act as consultants on behalf of the EOMA > project? My hope is, yes. > > One way to have leverage is for EOMA to become so popular, companies > without the mark are actively avoided by a significant fraction of the > population in given places. This is not to be underestimated, because > food certifications have demonstrated a lot of success with this > strategy. > > However we should also consider: > The patent system isn't necessarily broken, if we consider the rampant > abuse to be the result of scammers. We could see copyleft "public > commons" patents which are licensed openly to the public so long as > certain rules pertaining to certain morals are followed. Like with GPL > violations, any member of the public should be able to make a lawsuit > against a violator of these rules. > > With that possibility in mind, abuse could get worse with copyleft > principles, because rules could be stupid or misguided. FRAND already > comes into play with that, so there is already an appeals mechanism in > place against abusive copyleft or open patent licenses (if I > understand correctly). Perhaps patent courts could expand to judge as > fair or unfair the rules of an open patent license. Then such > standards organizations could form around protecting people and > certain morals, by prosecuting violators of these open patents. > Ultimately this could easily turn into an extortion racket with people > living off of legal and consultation fees. Such an organization should > live solely on donations and only conduct legal cases pro-bono. > > This is were things get weird. > > Aren't you asking, "wait if you just implied we should consider living > off of consultation and legal fees immoral extortion, why are you > defending patents as a form of leverage used by companies who would be > able to do that extortion.. you look like you're contradicting > yourself up and down"? > > Well, the fact remains the public benefits if the public shares the > morals being protected. Legal cases write lots of documentation which > the public might like to read, if well written. The more injustice an > organization fights this way then the more journalism they have > necessarily done and the more journalistic documents they can easily > publish. > This engineers a service that gratifies donors and will immediately > stop if the donations also stop, motivating people not to be selfish. > > EOMA standards organizations can also thoroughly document (through > transcripts, or audio or video journalism) what they were consulted > about and the advice given, so that it becomes easily apparent if they > were warning a company that they were consulting for about potential > violations or if they instead ever used consultation fees as a mode of > extortion. > > This mailing list shows EOMA off to a great start in terms open-ness > and thorough journalistic documentation of everything going on. I > fully support Luke and this project, and this is why I again draw > connections between this project and the baby giant company Cloud > Imperium Games, for their record-breakingly thorough self-journalism. > > I know they aren't FLOSS, but we need to be like them. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From rekado at elephly.net Thu Feb 15 08:55:27 2018 From: rekado at elephly.net (Ricardo Wurmus) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:55:27 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87po567hts.fsf@elephly.net> ronwirring at Safe-mail.net writes: > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Pičugins Arsenijs > Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk > To: Eco-Conscious Computing > Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card > Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 23:40:08 +0200 > > >> It seems to have a wide tip, so I'm wondering if it's suitable for soldering things like a 0.8-pitch connector... > > It has a swappable solder iron head. The solder iron > head I have looks like a screwdriver. It is about > 3mm wide. I have bought another solder iron > head. Shaped like a pencil. I suggest a wide, flat solder iron tip and lots of flux (e.g. “Loethonig”). 0.8-pitch gets easier to solder with a technique called drag soldering. You bathe the connector in thick flux, then apply solder to the flat solder iron head, then slowly drag the solder ball across all contacts. The flux prevents the solder ball from fusing adjacent pins. I really recommend this over a sharp, thin-tipped solder head for narrow pitches. -- Ricardo GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC https://elephly.net From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 15 09:48:48 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:48:48 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] asus eeepc 7inch, modifying it to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: <87po567hts.fsf@elephly.net> References: <87po567hts.fsf@elephly.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 8:55 AM, Ricardo Wurmus wrote: > I suggest a wide, flat solder iron tip and lots of flux > (e.g. “Loethonig”). 0.8-pitch gets easier to solder with a technique > called drag soldering. You bathe the connector in thick flux, then > apply solder to the flat solder iron head, then slowly drag the solder > ball across all contacts. > > The flux prevents the solder ball from fusing adjacent pins. > > I really recommend this over a sharp, thin-tipped solder head for narrow > pitches. cool, thanks ricardo. does anyone else have any recommended techniques? there's a huge range of experience on this list. l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Tue Feb 13 21:13:40 2018 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 16:13:40 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] manufacturing a 7inch netbook housing for the pc card Message-ID: This question must be looked upon as an overall one. Not a concrete one. It is more about if you know about the economics of these small netbooks. https://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/07/23/india.thirty.five.dollar.laptop/index.html I do not know if this computer got on the market. It cannot be done for 35usd without subsidies? Let us say we have a series of pc cards. Having different performances. Various prices. According to lkcl the cheapest would be about 30usd. On https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Cheap-Via-8880-7-inch-Android_60478978572.html there is a 7 inch netbook for sale. It appears to be a common computer. Prices are about 50usd. I would want to compare the computer to the one laptop per child. What magnitude of order would you have to place at the manufacturer, getting him to redesign the cabinet of the https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Cheap-Via-8880-7-inch-Android_60478978572.html netbook to become a pc card housing? What would he be able to sell the pc card housing netbook for? From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Wed Feb 14 17:09:38 2018 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 12:09:38 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer Message-ID: Regarding moderator approval. I ask you to display this email on the emailing list. Thereby enabling transparency and ensuring that subscribers get to know my arguments. Not doing so I will hold against you. > you seem to believe that you have the right to do whatever you want: you don't. > every time i have asked you to respect my authority you have ducked > or ignored the question. I think you are as happened before exaggerating, and misrepresenting what previous disputes we have had. About what follows I have not searched for documentation in previous posts and emails. Because I am not going to do the effort. First one. On another forum I made some critical posts about the pc card crowdfunding. I did so because it can be beneficial for the owner of a project to get more angles on his work and everyone should be scrutinized. My main critique was including the pc card laptop housing in a crowdfunding. My point of view was that for a one person enterprise that would be to big a task. It would require a frictionless course. It turned out I was right. No usable parts have been manufactured so far? Instead I would have concentrated on getting more people to buy the pc card. If lkcl wanted to shut me up or not, I do not know. He could not. It was not his forum. Lkcl accused me of sabotaging the crowdfunding. Said I could make the crowdfunding fail. An undocumented claim and heavily questionable, which I told him. Without being obligated to, I told lkcl I would stop further postings, should he want me to. I had made my points known. Second one. When posting emails on the arm netbook emailing list, I wanted to keep all previous posts unedited in my next post. Lkcl told me, that is not how it is done. And he explained how I should edit posts and importantly why I should edit. One argument was, he had to read a high number of emails and edited posts were time saving for him. I have to accept that my english writing skills are limited. My answer to him may have been unclear. The content of my answering post was, every email list member should decide for himself how to edit a post. But I accepted his arguments about editing posts and told him I would concur. Then lkcl misread my post. Believing I would not concur. Therefore lkcl told me, I had to make a specific declaration about complying to the rules about posting. Having done nothing wrong and perceiving lkcl's request as unnecessarily cornering, I wrote in a post, that he had misread my post and he could take any action he should want to. Then I got on the moderation approval list. To my knowledge from that point none of my postings have not complied to rules about posting. At some point, not on me request, I got off the moderator list. Third one. In a post I mentioned lkcl in third person. I was not aware it would be a rude action. Because I am addressing a bunch of people. When lkcl asked me to not do so, I explained why I had phrased the sentence like I did. To me the matter was insignificant. And I saw no reason to alter my phrasing. It resulted in lkcl escalating the matter to become relevant for the moderator approval list. Looking back on lkcl's outbursting tendencies I did not pay any attention to it. Even more because lkcl dances with profanities. Which I do not. All this in order to show that I do not do whatever I want. Some times I do not listen. I mentioned my free speech in a post. It resulted in several rubbish comments. I was not referring to any legal system. I wanted to state my point of view on free speech in a forum or on an emailing list. Lkcl, since you are in favor of straightening things out and not dodge, answer these questions about your emailing list: Should your emailing list aspire to grand the highest level of free speech? Do you adhere to the principle of equal matters must be dealt with equally? Do you adhere to the principle of proportionality? Because you own this emailing list, you can do whatever you want. I am not questioning that. The question is should you do whatever you want? How you manage your email list tells a tale about you. If your answer to my 3 questions are no, then I have misread you as a person and you do not have to unsubscribe me. I do it myself. When I wrote 'Has lkcl' you managed to infringe on all 3 principles. There are no strong reasons, other than your vanity, to prohibit such phrasing. I cannot write third person. You write profanities, masked or not. If using third person is an infraction, it is a minor. Calling in the moderator approval list is an overreaction. Part 2. Lkcl has thrown into the air that I may be infringing on one or more laws and maybe a license or certification. I have no overview on this matter. > do you, ron wirring, accept that i am the SOLE EXCLUSIVE Copyright > Holder of the EOMA68 Standard? > please answer simply yes or no. I am not going to answer yes or no until I know what I am answering yes or no to. First I want to say, I have never read the standards. I have no idea about the purchase agreement. Which laws apply. Which certification. Which licenses. The reason is the pc card is to me no more important than buying a mixer. If I get a pc card, fine. If not, it was a nice initiative. Lkcl will probably blame me for this approach. Does not matter. I am not going to put an effort into getting knowledgeable on these matters for an item which may not get shipped and due to what it costs. In wanting to make the asus eeepc accept pc cards I can have done a lot of infringements not knowing it. Lkcl suddenly shouting about trademarks and copyright came as a surprise to me. When this is sorted out, what stands is I have no intention infringing on anything. This is my look on it. I have no use for the pc card. Maybe it can run a freedombox. Then I thought I would like to have an asus eeepc which accepts pc cards. Lkcl was firmly against it. Costs could spiral. I appreciated the warning. The computer could catch fire. An important warning. But I planned to power it by power supply and a power bank via usb and not at the same time. I soon found out the task was to difficult for me. I stopped further steps. I do not remember any posts about trademarks, copyright or certification. I thought getting a pc card was like getting a raspberry pi. You can use it like you want. Then one person on this email list said, I think we can make it. And I restarted the matter. Again lkcl stated his objections. I noticed lkcl would participate in making the computer secure. On that I thanked him, because he already has enough to do. Now it is about infringements. Am I not allowed to make a pc card housing? Is this what it is about? Then why would you participate? You demanded to get to approve the battery hardware setup. On which I agreed. So did picugins, what more are you asking for? Can you display the law text in question I am infringing on? > also if you do not answer "yes" i will NOT grant you permission, AS > IS MY RIGHT UNDER COPYRIGHT LAW, to utilise the word "EOMA68" in ANY > way, shape or form. I do not have any intention on utilizing the word eoma68. What exactly are you referring to? That I will put an eoma68 sticker on the computer? That I may not publish a picture of the computer and a text saying, this is a computer which accepts eoma68 pc cards? Is that it? If so no problem. I will not. Explain what you are asking for? You should have anticipated someone would want to do their own pc card housing. On your website you should make a page displaying what you can and cannot do in regards to a pc card housing. It should show what law texts are into play. Show certifications. > within 72 hours We do not know if the pc card gets shipped. We do not know if the asus eeepc housing will be made. Why not make it 24 hours? > Don't make enemies where you don't have to, Luke. I'm just sayin'. Lkcl is not my enemy. He does not snide. You do not doubt lkcl goes a long way to achieve his goal. You know he will not skip his principles. On communicating however. > forced to simply unsubscribe you from this list Why unsubscribe? Can't you disable my option to post? It would be a less extensive action. The emails are public in the archive anyway. > do you wish me to terminate this project Who here does not understand your frustration? What does it have to do with what I am doing? Next time you are accusing me from nowhere and misrepresenting what I have done previously I will not answer this lengthy. I will know you are doing it on purpose. > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 15 10:50:28 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 10:50:28 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: apologies i am going to keep this brief, i am on the clock, an extremely limited amount of time for this visit to the UK... which this is causing massive problems for me to have to deal with. so please STOP taking up my time. On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 5:09 PM, wrote: > Regarding moderator approval. I ask you to display this email > on the emailing list. you can ask, but i go by its contents NOT by whether you have asked. you are still in moderation because you're pissing everybody off. >> you seem to believe that you have the right to do whatever you want: you don't. >> every time i have asked you to respect my authority you have ducked >> or ignored the question. > > I think you are as happened before exaggerating, and misrepresenting > what previous disputes we have had. no... i haven't. you fail, plain and simple, to state clearly that you respect the rules that are set. this is why you were placed into moderation for several months, and you have STILL failed to clearly state that you intend to respect the rules that i set. > About what follows I have not searched for documentation in previous > posts and emails. Because I am not going to do the > effort. well, that's just plain fucking rude and is directly contrary to every single netiquette rule covering interaction with people on a mailing list for about 30+ years. why the fuck should WE do YOUR work for you when you can't fucking well be bothered to do your own research. we're not your "lackeys" ron, helping you to "suck on the great documentation tit in the sky". > First one. > On another forum I made some critical posts about the pc card > crowdfunding. I did so because it can be > beneficial for the owner of a project to get more angles > on his work and everyone should be scrutinized. > My main critique was including the pc card laptop housing > in a crowdfunding. _great_. and that's the only reason why people are now tolerating you. you're pissing everyone off, ron. > My point of view was that for a one > person enterprise that would be to big a task. It would > require a frictionless course. It turned out I was right. > No usable parts have been manufactured so far? > Instead I would have concentrated on getting more people > to buy the pc card. > If lkcl wanted to shut me up or not, I do not know. > He could not. It was not his forum. > Lkcl accused me of sabotaging the crowdfunding. > Said I could make the crowdfunding fail. no, you could undermine the entire EOMA68 project by killing someone through your incompetence and unwillingness to listen to advice. which is much much more serious. > Second one. > When posting emails on the arm netbook emailing list, > I wanted to keep all previous posts unedited in > my next post. Lkcl told me, that is not how it is done. actually several people did. you can't decide what rules YOU want to follow. you have to follow the rules of interaction that suit EVERYONE. NOT your own fucking PERSONAL and SELFISH needs. > And he explained how I should edit posts and > importantly why I should edit. One argument was, > he had to read a high number of emails and edited > posts were time saving for him. AND EVERYONE ELSE ON THE LIST. > I have to accept that my english writing skills are > limited. great. this is progress. > My answer to him may have been unclear. ... actually, you evaded the question "will you follow the rules, yes or no". *that* is why you were placed into moderation. it was your unwillingness to LISTEN. > The content of my answering post was, every > email list member should decide for himself > how to edit a post. absofuckinglutely NOT. there are FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY OTHER PEOPLE YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT ron. > But I accepted his arguments > about editing posts and told him I would concur. actually... you didn't. > Then lkcl misread my post. Believing I would not > concur. Therefore lkcl told me, I had to make a > specific declaration about complying to the rules > about posting. ... which you did... for about a day. and then stopped. > To my knowledge from that point none of my > postings have not complied to rules about posting. > At some point, not on me request, I got off the > moderator list. yes... because despite you NOT having actually explicitly agreed to .... you know what? this is taking up far too much of my valuable time. i am under a LOT OF PRESSURE right now, i cannot be dealing with this. > I mentioned my free speech in a post. It resulted > in several rubbish comments. no... you pissed a lot of people off... and you've now indicated that you don't give a shit about what other people think, ron. this is not a good sign. > Lkcl, since you are in favor of straightening things > out and not dodge, answer these questions about > your emailing list: > > Should your emailing list aspire to grand the > highest level of free speech? fuck no. > Do you adhere to the principle of equal matters > must be dealt with equally? when it comes to my obligations under the Certification Mark, i am *required* to be "FRAND" (Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory). outside of that legal obligation, FUCK no. > Do you adhere to the principle of proportionality? don't know what it means.... don't really care at this point. all i can say is: when it comes to my obligations under the Certification Mark, i am *required* to be "FRAND" (Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory). basically i follow the "Bill of Ethics" as written by Bob Podolski. i'd say "go look it up" but you've already indicated that you don't give a fuck about following people's recommendations. > Because you own this emailing list, you can do > whatever you want. I am not questioning that. > The question is should you do whatever you want? an interesting point.... governed by the Bill of Ethics and the goals that i have set. > How you manage your email list tells a tale about > you. If your answer to my 3 questions are no, then I have > misread you as a person and you do not have to > unsubscribe me. I do it myself. that's your right. > When I wrote 'Has lkcl' you managed to infringe on all > 3 principles. There are no strong reasons, other than > your vanity, to prohibit such phrasing. I cannot write > third person. You write profanities, masked or not. > If using third person is an infraction, it is a minor. > Calling in the moderator approval list is an > overreaction. not at all. > Part 2. > Lkcl has thrown into the air that I may be > infringing on one or more laws and maybe a license or > certification. I have no overview on this matter. you're required to respect the law. in this case, copyright law. which you've indicated that you can't be bothered to research and read up on. which makes you DANGEROUS to the project. >> do you, ron wirring, accept that i am the SOLE EXCLUSIVE Copyright >> Holder of the EOMA68 Standard? >> please answer simply yes or no. > > I am not going to answer yes or no until I know what > I am answering yes or no to. well, it's real simple: if i am the copyright holder of a work, and i make that clear, i'm asking, "do you respect Copyright Law and my rights AS a Copyright Holder?" it's REAL simple, ron. > First I want to say, I have never read the standards. whoops. that's not a good sign. > I have no > idea about the purchase agreement. Which laws apply. > Which certification. Which licenses. The reason is the > pc card is to me no more important than buying a mixer. > If I get a pc card, fine. If not, it was a nice initiative. > Lkcl will probably blame me for this approach. Does > not matter. I am not going to put an effort into getting > knowledgeable on these matters for an item which > may not get shipped and due to what it > costs. > In wanting to make the asus eeepc accept pc cards I can > have done a lot of infringements not knowing it. ignorance of the law is no excuse. > Lkcl > suddenly shouting about trademarks and copyright came > as a surprise to me. well of course it's fucking well copyrighted, what did you expect!! Copyright Law applies to EVERYTHING for fuck's sake! > Am I not allowed to make a pc card housing? i've already explained this to you that there are two conditions, one where you do NOT make mention of "EOMA68" - anywhere - in which case you can do whatever you like. but if you mention "EOMA68" *ANYWHERE* you are NOT permitted to do ANYTHING without my EXPRESSED AND EXPLICIT APPROVAL. come on, ron, this isn't hard. > Is > this what it is about? Then why would you > participate? > You demanded to get to approve the battery hardware > setup. On which I agreed. So did picugins, what more > are you asking for? > Can you display the law text in question I am > infringing on? fucking well look it up for yourself! fuck me, i'm not your mother for fuck's sake. do your own fucking research!!! stop making everyone else your lackey! jaezuss. >> also if you do not answer "yes" i will NOT grant you permission, AS >> IS MY RIGHT UNDER COPYRIGHT LAW, to utilise the word "EOMA68" in ANY >> way, shape or form. > > I do not have any intention on utilizing the word eoma68. GOOD. i am going to hold you to that. it's the only reason why i've let this message get through to the list. you are also not permitted to mention EOMA68 on any documentation that you write and release publicly. WHEN you are mentally ready to understand the implications of what you're doing - and have actually fucking well bothered to read the EOMA68 Standard - THEN we can talk about compliance *WITH* that Standard, and IF and ONLY if you conform FULLY with the Standard will i grant you the right to put EOMA68 on "stuff". this is *basic* stuff. > What exactly are you referring to? That I will put an eoma68 > sticker on the computer? just like "Bluetooth Low Energy" (BLE) or "HDMI" or "RYF Hardware Endorsed"... on the computer, on public documentation, on public web sites, on *anything*.... yes. > That I may not publish a picture of the computer and a text > saying, this is a computer which accepts eoma68 > pc cards? that's absolutely correct. > Is that it? with the above additions and corrections... yes. the absolute last thing that is needed is for you to make a mistake (because you didn't fucking well read the Standard) and end up being responsible for KILLING someone.... oh and the investigators find the word "EOMA68" and start blaming *ME*. that would be... apart from the loss of life being.... i can't even find the right words here. > If so no problem. I will not. _great_ > Explain what you are > asking for? > You should have anticipated someone would want to > do their own pc card housing. i did. years ago. there just haven't been any people who've DISAGREED with or fundamentally questioned my rights and responsibilities as the Copyright Holder and Guardian of the EOMA68 Standard as you have, ron. everyone else i've talked to has implicitly understood it and gone, "ok i get it". > On your website you should > make a page displaying what you can and cannot do in > regards to a pc card housing. It should show what law > texts are into play. Show certifications. yes. i know. if i am honest, i have been kinda avoiding doing that. it's down to the huge responsibility. i don't *want* to tell people "no you can't", i want to EMPOWER people rather than DISempower them... and saying "no".... *sigh*. ok enough. too long taken already. one of the main reasons i tolerate you, ron, is because you are actually extremely useful. you *do* pick up on the "things that are missing". yes, i really should have a section on the Standards page saying "EOMA68 is a Certification Mark". this is actually required by law. *sigh* if anyone can help with that, it would be really apprecaited. both the elinux.org standards page *and* the rhombus tech wiki. l. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 11:39:25 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 06:39:25 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Let there be two "levels" of EOMA68. "EOMA68" by itself can be construed > from now on to mean "compatible with the standard in some reasonable way". > Then, /with a separate and distinct but visually similar/ logo - "EOMA68 > Certified", which is exactly that. That doesn't get around the internationalization problem. If someone doesn't speak english and they are reading an english label, not seeing the word certified anywhere but in fact seeing the word EOMA68, then they might falsely assume the device is certified. > [void all warrantees] > if an EOMA68-Certified device is connected to an EOMA68 non-certified > device. That's rude as heck, IMNSHO, but it does the job. Luke, wouldn't and again "can't" do that. Luke is the guardian of a standard and a consultant for ThinkPenguin, helping them develop their card and documenting everything possible. I mean Luke could advise ThinkPenguin to do that, but it's kinda ridiculous and doesn't fix the internationalization problem. When we talk about someone following these instructions, we're talking about a sleezy electronics repair shop owner in China. When we talk about someone dieing, we are talking about that shop owner's customer who bought a pyra computer after getting shown an instructables page in english (which they can't read), and being pointed to the word EOMA68. This is a very realistic and also very real scenario that happens everyday all over the world. This is why China Geo-blocks the rest of the world. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 11:51:31 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 06:51:31 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it's important to remember Ron also said this :) > Lkcl is not my enemy. He does not snide. You do not > doubt lkcl goes a long way to achieve his goal. You > know he will not skip his principles. On > communicating however. Most everything else seemed like venting misunderstanding. Well articulated, though! This falls pretty religiously under trademark law. However, in this case; the case of a certification mark, that trademark law is more strict than copyright because there is no fair use and hobby projects will count as commercial use of the term in most jurisdictions. Not using the word EOMA68 and covering up the mark on any pictures, is pretty important if we don't want to give geo-restrictions a reason to exist. And, I'm sure Luke doesn't. --- Can we all just be civil though? I feel like I've explained this all well enough, is there really anyone who can still disagree this is the correct course of action? From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 11:58:27 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 06:58:27 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correction, it is fair use to criticize or make commentary. Otherwise the word EOMA68 is essentially a copyrighted word. It's kinda funny and scary to think such things exist. However they kind of have to, because the confusion does endanger people. I'll admit the possibility of a battery fire killing someone here is low, because, if it was likely, then no website would host the documentation. The issue is that someone could get hurt as the result of a language barrier. That is something that creates issues of legal liability in addition to the moral what-the-fuck. Also, who is likely to trust a certification if a sleezy seller can get away with a stunt like that? From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 15 12:03:40 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 12:03:40 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Jean Flamelle wrote: >> Let there be two "levels" of EOMA68. "EOMA68" by itself can be construed >> from now on to mean "compatible with the standard in some reasonable way". >> Then, /with a separate and distinct but visually similar/ logo - "EOMA68 >> Certified", which is exactly that. remember this is a mass-volume standard, the suggestion itself would cause massive confusion. think in terms of, "does the FSF allow such unclear distinctions about RYF Endorsement" and "why not" and the answer is, "because confusion has disastrous consequences" also, which one is "OKAY" if one "lesser variant" of the standard can kill someone, but the other one can't? ... neither are ok, are they? > That doesn't get around the internationalization problem. no... and i am legally NOT PERMITTED to subdivide continents and apply different "rules".... because that would be anti-D as in FRAND as in "Discriminatory". > If someone doesn't speak english and they are reading an english > label, not seeing the word certified anywhere but in fact seeing the > word EOMA68, then they might falsely assume the device is certified. nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE" or the Certification Mark "HDMI". argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry. REALLY limited time right now. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 12:34:09 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 07:34:09 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE" > or the Certification Mark "HDMI". > > argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry. REALLY limited time right > now. Don't worry, I think I understand your point of view and I'm trying to put it in terms everyone else can follow. At least, I hope that's what I'm doing. Those are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about. If someone implements bad HDMI, then I assume they'll get sued if they even mention the word HDMI. Likewise if a hobbyist documents hacking an HDMI port to connect to a chip inside an adapter that converts it composite video, they'll run into either geo-restrictions or legal trouble, if that adapter fries the HDMI port. In the US people can say whatever they want, but, elsewhere in the world, they'll say 18-pin audio-video port to save their butts. And, again, for good reason because of scam artists exploiting language barriers. BLE they will say custom wifi. --- Luke has mentioned that if Intel makes a card the even looks slightly confuse-able for an EOMA68, without being certified then that would be infringement of the certification. I presume HDMI has probably tested this in various courts, because, if a someone implements bad HDMI, they can't just get away with it by calling it something else. So that's another way how certification law, could be stricter than copyright or trademark law. But, I find it hard to believe patents owned by HDMI wouldn't be involved in securing a case like that. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 15 14:34:39 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 14:34:39 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] manufacturing a 7inch netbook housing for the pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:13 PM, wrote: > redesign the cabinet of the https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Cheap-Via-8880-7-inch-Android_60478978572.html netbook to > become a pc card housing? What would he > be able to sell the pc card housing netbook > for? i can't sell product. at all. the owner of a Certification Mark is PROHIBITED from "competing" with the businesses to which it "licenses" the standard. we (collectively - as in, if someone is interested they are entirely at liberty to spend the time assessing this question) can however assess how much *someone other than me* would be able to sell (as a business *under license*) the proposed netbook housing for. if someone would be interested to work that out please do so. in doing so it would be nice to record that information on a suitable rhombus tech wiki page under the community_ideas tree. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 14:50:54 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:50:54 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another quick phone post. YedIf the problem with my idea is the word "certified" - DON'T USE THAT WORD IN THE LOGO but require it somewhere nearby in a local language to the intended geographic region where the device is to be sold. Also, the very idea of my two levels, two labels approach is to avoid confusion. This isn't rocket science. Put away the hydrazine lol. On Feb 15, 2018 7:34 AM, "Jean Flamelle" wrote: > > nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE" > > or the Certification Mark "HDMI". > > > > argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry. REALLY limited time right > > now. > > Don't worry, I think I understand your point of view and I'm trying to > put it in terms everyone else can follow. At least, I hope that's what > I'm doing. > > Those are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about. > > If someone implements bad HDMI, then I assume they'll get sued if they > even mention the word HDMI. Likewise if a hobbyist documents hacking > an HDMI port to connect to a chip inside an adapter that converts it > composite video, they'll run into either geo-restrictions or legal > trouble, if that adapter fries the HDMI port. > > In the US people can say whatever they want, but, elsewhere in the > world, they'll say 18-pin audio-video port to save their butts. And, > again, for good reason because of scam artists exploiting language > barriers. > > BLE they will say custom wifi. > > --- > > Luke has mentioned that if Intel makes a card the even looks slightly > confuse-able for an EOMA68, without being certified then that would be > infringement of the certification. > > I presume HDMI has probably tested this in various courts, because, if > a someone implements bad HDMI, they can't just get away with it by > calling it something else. So that's another way how certification > law, could be stricter than copyright or trademark law. But, I find it > hard to believe patents owned by HDMI wouldn't be involved in securing > a case like that. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 15 14:51:06 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 14:51:06 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Jean Flamelle wrote: >> nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE" >> or the Certification Mark "HDMI". >> >> argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry. REALLY limited time right >> now. > > Don't worry, I think I understand your point of view and I'm trying to > put it in terms everyone else can follow. At least, I hope that's what > I'm doing. > > Those are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about. > > If someone implements bad HDMI, then I assume they'll get sued if they > even mention the word HDMI. no it's more than that: the Guardian (Copyright Holders) of the HDMI Standard begin proceedings according to EXACTLY the same Trademark / Certification Mark / Copyright Laws that *I* am required to follow.... ... and that begins with "scuse me but you're using the word HDMI without our explicit expressed consent". it's *EXACTLY* the same thing as if you tried to claim that a product was "RYF Hardware-Endorsed".... without actually bothering to contact the FSF. now, it so happens in the case of HDMI that you can simply put an HDMI connector on the product.... what you CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO is put the *WORD* "HDMI" anywhere on your product, because that has SPECIFIC implications that the seller of that product HAS GONE THROUGH THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS. it's real simple: if you haven't gone through the Certification Process, *as defined by the Copyright Holder of the Certification Mark*, you are NOT PERMITTED to put the word "HDMI" on the product. or whatever the Copyright Holder says that you MUST do in order to receive the Certification Mark. all of this is extremely well-known, by anyone that's done RYF Certification, HDMI Certification, BLE (Bluetooth Low-Energy) Certification and so on. EOMA68 is absolutely no different. > Likewise if a hobbyist documents hacking > an HDMI port to connect to a chip inside an adapter that converts it > composite video, they'll run into either geo-restrictions or legal > trouble, if that adapter fries the HDMI port. > > In the US people can say whatever they want, but, elsewhere in the > world, they'll say 18-pin audio-video port to save their butts. And, > again, for good reason because of scam artists exploiting language > barriers. > > BLE they will say custom wifi. exactly. > > --- > > Luke has mentioned that if Intel makes a card the even looks slightly > confuse-able for an EOMA68, without being certified then that would be > infringement of the certification. this is complex, but it's part of Trademark / Certification Mark Law. if even through "making something similar" you *still* cause confusion, to the detriment of the Certification Mark with which you are "competing", then yes, it doesn't actually matter if you don't actually put the name "EOMA68" on it, if it runs the risk of breaking something, or worst case killing someone due to a lithium battery fire, then under Trademark Law yes my understanding is that i would be permitted to drop a legal ton of bricks on the heads of the people who were being irresponsible. there was a case involving Harrods and 'Arrods two decades ago. > I presume HDMI has probably tested this in various courts, because, if > a someone implements bad HDMI, they can't just get away with it by > calling it something else. or... whatever. > So that's another way how certification > law, could be stricter than copyright or trademark law. But, I find it > hard to believe patents owned by HDMI wouldn't be involved in securing > a case like that. patents are totally different and in the specific example you gave.... yes quite probably. don't know. REALLY should not be replying to this right now. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 15 14:52:15 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 14:52:15 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: if specific to one country that would be fine chris. EOMA68 like HDMI and BLE is not intended for one country. it's global. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Another quick phone post. > > YedIf the problem with my idea is the word "certified" - DON'T USE THAT > WORD IN THE LOGO but require it somewhere nearby in a local language to the > intended geographic region where the device is to be sold. > > Also, the very idea of my two levels, two labels approach is to avoid > confusion. This isn't rocket science. Put away the hydrazine lol. > > On Feb 15, 2018 7:34 AM, "Jean Flamelle" wrote: > >> > nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE" >> > or the Certification Mark "HDMI". >> > >> > argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry. REALLY limited time right >> > now. >> >> Don't worry, I think I understand your point of view and I'm trying to >> put it in terms everyone else can follow. At least, I hope that's what >> I'm doing. >> >> Those are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about. >> >> If someone implements bad HDMI, then I assume they'll get sued if they >> even mention the word HDMI. Likewise if a hobbyist documents hacking >> an HDMI port to connect to a chip inside an adapter that converts it >> composite video, they'll run into either geo-restrictions or legal >> trouble, if that adapter fries the HDMI port. >> >> In the US people can say whatever they want, but, elsewhere in the >> world, they'll say 18-pin audio-video port to save their butts. And, >> again, for good reason because of scam artists exploiting language >> barriers. >> >> BLE they will say custom wifi. >> >> --- >> >> Luke has mentioned that if Intel makes a card the even looks slightly >> confuse-able for an EOMA68, without being certified then that would be >> infringement of the certification. >> >> I presume HDMI has probably tested this in various courts, because, if >> a someone implements bad HDMI, they can't just get away with it by >> calling it something else. So that's another way how certification >> law, could be stricter than copyright or trademark law. But, I find it >> hard to believe patents owned by HDMI wouldn't be involved in securing >> a case like that. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 15:29:52 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 10:29:52 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > if specific to one country that would be fine chris. EOMA68 like > HDMI and BLE is not intended for one country. it's global. Hence why I said "in a local language to the geographic region" where the intended market is. Obviously there would be more than one of these. Each manufacturer would be required to write it in eg their own local language, be that English, Simplified Chinese, some Sanskrit dialect, or whatever. If they're selling to another region, then THAT region's language takes precedence -- for example, if a US company wanted to sell to the Tamil Tigers (which would be problematic, but for other reasons) -- they would write the words "EOMA68 Certified" in Tamil. If you want to be extra careful, since English really is something of a Lingua Franca across the globe at this point, you could require it to be written TWICE -- once in English and once in the local language. Again, this isn't rocket science... I really don't understand the resistance to what is actually a simple and elegant solution that would cause a minimum of confusion, if any at all... From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 15 16:06:10 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 16:06:10 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > >> if specific to one country that would be fine chris. EOMA68 like >> HDMI and BLE is not intended for one country. it's global. > > > Hence why I said "in a local language to the geographic region" where the > intended market is. Obviously there would be more than one of these. Each > manufacturer would be required to write it in eg their own local language, Trademarks and Certification Marks yes you could do that... but you don't translate the "M" of "Macdonalds" just as you don't translate "HDMI" or "BLE" or "RYF Endorsed". you apply for GLOBAL world-wide Certification on the letters, in that order, E followed by O followed by M followed by A followed by 6 followed by 8. people regardless of native language get to recognise the shape of those letters LITERALLY as if it was a piece of art. even i am getting used to recognising the letters for "Taiwan". l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 16:13:00 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 11:13:00 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So... have the word "EOMA68" in the logo for both tiers, just have something that universally indicates "premium" or "certified" or "extra" or "plus" in the "EOMA68=Certified" logo, and have that something NOT be in the other logo. (A yellow or gold-colored award-ribbon symbol comes to mind, but that's just me.) Luke, with all due respect, it's kind of obvious that you're not even trying here. This is super easy stuff. This is "grade school" easy. You should not be flunking art class over this! ...feck it. I've got to get ready for some errands, it's that day of the week. I'll draw up examples and show you, when I get back later. It'll be a few hours. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 15 16:25:27 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 16:25:27 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > So... have the word "EOMA68" in the logo for both tiers, no tiers. too dangerous, too confusing. > just have > something that universally indicates "premium" or "certified" or "extra" or > "plus" in the "EOMA68=Certified" logo, which means "optional" which means "confusion". no, sorry chris. > Luke, with all due respect, it's kind of obvious that you're not even > trying here. i'm trying *really hard* to get across that the risk when you have a hundred million people buying "stuff" it's a totally different ballgame. if this was only maybe 50,000 people world-wide even in my wildest dreams, i simply would not be bothering. at all. can you reassure me that out of a HUNDRED MILLION people there will be ZERO CONFUSION over what a different colour means? > ...feck it. I've got to get ready for some errands, it's that day of the > week. I'll draw up examples and show you, when I get back later. It'll be a > few hours. it's appreciated... but no, i do appreciate what you're saying, i do appreciate the distinction you're trying to make.... and unless you can provide GUARANTEED reassurance that there will be ZERO confusion in the eyes of hundreds of millions of users... no fear, no uncertainty, no doubt WHATSOEVER, the answer really does have to be no. can you do that? l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 16:40:37 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 11:40:37 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Quickie from my phone, sorry. I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but distinct logos should not be a challenge for the general population... even in the USA, where education is somewhat questionable in quality, or in African countries where education is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to be able to name e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different... Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone with an iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a tremendous challenge just generally navigating through the world as-is, and we can therefore ignore that use case. On Feb 15, 2018 11:26 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Christopher Havel > wrote: > > So... have the word "EOMA68" in the logo for both tiers, > > no tiers. too dangerous, too confusing. > > > just have > > something that universally indicates "premium" or "certified" or "extra" > or > > "plus" in the "EOMA68=Certified" logo, > > which means "optional" which means "confusion". no, sorry chris. > > > Luke, with all due respect, it's kind of obvious that you're not even > > trying here. > > i'm trying *really hard* to get across that the risk when you have a > hundred million people buying "stuff" it's a totally different > ballgame. > > if this was only maybe 50,000 people world-wide even in my wildest > dreams, i simply would not be bothering. at all. > > can you reassure me that out of a HUNDRED MILLION people there will > be ZERO CONFUSION over what a different colour means? > > > > ...feck it. I've got to get ready for some errands, it's that day of the > > week. I'll draw up examples and show you, when I get back later. It'll > be a > > few hours. > > it's appreciated... but no, i do appreciate what you're saying, i do > appreciate the distinction you're trying to make.... and unless you > can provide GUARANTEED reassurance that there will be ZERO confusion > in the eyes of hundreds of millions of users... no fear, no > uncertainty, no doubt WHATSOEVER, the answer really does have to be > no. > > can you do that? > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 15 16:43:09 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 16:43:09 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Quickie from my phone, sorry. not a problem > I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but distinct > logos should not be a challenge for the general population... even in the > USA, where education is somewhat questionable in quality, or in African > countries where education is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to be > able to name e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different... > > Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone with an > iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a tremendous challenge > just generally navigating through the world as-is, and we can therefore > ignore that use case. statistically unfortunately the number of 75 IQ outliers increases massively with sample size. if 100 million is not enough to satisfy you that we cannot take risks, increase it by an order of magnitude to a billion people. sorry chris. really, we can't mess about with "options" here. it's one option or it's nothing at all. "any colour as long as it's black". l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 16:47:32 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 11:47:32 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Last from phone - got to go, will get back to you later... but this is still easily doable. On Feb 15, 2018 11:43 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Christopher Havel > wrote: > > Quickie from my phone, sorry. > > not a problem > > > I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but distinct > > logos should not be a challenge for the general population... even in the > > USA, where education is somewhat questionable in quality, or in African > > countries where education is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to > be > > able to name e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different... > > > > Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone with > an > > iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a tremendous > challenge > > just generally navigating through the world as-is, and we can therefore > > ignore that use case. > > statistically unfortunately the number of 75 IQ outliers increases > massively with sample size. if 100 million is not enough to satisfy > you that we cannot take risks, increase it by an order of magnitude to > a billion people. > > sorry chris. really, we can't mess about with "options" here. it's > one option or it's nothing at all. "any colour as long as it's > black". > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Feb 15 17:10:37 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 17:10:37 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:47 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Last from phone - got to go, will get back to you later... but this is > still easily doable. give it a shot when you have time - let's work through it when you're back. From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Thu Feb 15 20:17:58 2018 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 10:17:58 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8dfc981a-f485-a9b7-f41d-6df9f301af37@FineArtMarquetry.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/15/2018 06:43 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: > https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Christopher Havel > wrote: >> I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but >> distinct logos should not be a challenge for the general >> population... even in the USA, where education is somewhat >> questionable in quality, or in African countries where education >> is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to be able to name >> e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different... True. The problem (as I understand it) is when you have even reasonably intelligent people who can't understand the language. Few websites are set up to refuse to serve pages to people who don't speak the language of the site, and cannot, practically or impractically, be fully reliably so limited. If EOMA succeeds, this will be a problem in non-English to English speaker as well as the currently discussed English to non-English speaker . >> >> Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone >> with an iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a >> tremendous challenge just generally navigating through the world >> as-is, and we can therefore ignore that use case. > > statistically unfortunately the number of 75 IQ outliers increases > massively with sample size. if 100 million is not enough to > satisfy you that we cannot take risks, increase it by an order of > magnitude to a billion people. I had been thinking about this, and the problem, unfortunately, is not even just about the 75 IQ outliers. There is also the problem of demonstrably intelligent people who seem to shut off their brains around computers. Maybe the infamous question about the "any key" is the low IQ people, but I'm pretty sure it isn't entirely so, and there's a whole lot of issues one step up that really do seem to trip up intelligent people. > > sorry chris. really, we can't mess about with "options" here. > it's one option or it's nothing at all. "any colour as long as > it's black". Here is why it's "any colour as long as it's black": Any logo MUST work not just in colour, but in black and white, or further, embossed, or engraved without any colour or lightness information remaining. So far the only solution I see is to have a second term, *not* EOMA, to refer to hobbyist hacking projects that are theoretically compatible. The challenge, AIUI, is that such term *cannot* be used in the official documentation, and even using it on this list, which is (imperfect name or not) the official EOMA discussion list, is problematic. This second term will be generated sooner or later. It's unfortunate that the need to keep them separate makes the bootstrap process a lot harder, but that seems to be the price of keeping EOMA pure enough to work for non-technical users. And, frankly, for the technical users who aren't in the mood to fuss with specifications at any given time. For that matter, being weary of checking compatibility was a large part of the reason I bought my computer from Think Penguin. Tor - -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ 808-828-1107 GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQr4UJuNOrSU9WDneS4ZgN1E0tI+wUCWoXq7gAKCRC4ZgN1E0tI +zU2AJ9FvuGqZ+ap0ZmKw1LMsV0SHrCHFwCfbvjwr3suQIb4IhOipZD7dHCJawY= =rFAD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From auerswal at unix-ag.uni-kl.de Fri Feb 16 11:13:08 2018 From: auerswal at unix-ag.uni-kl.de (Erik Auerswald) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:13:08 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180216111308.GA29968@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Hi, I did not want to enter this flame war, but I want to point out an obvious misunderstanding of the involved parties: On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 02:51:06PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > [...] > now, it so happens in the case of HDMI that you can simply put an > HDMI connector on the product.... what you CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO is > put the *WORD* "HDMI" anywhere on your product, because that has > SPECIFIC implications that the seller of that product HAS GONE THROUGH > THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS. Without a "product" and a "seller" there can be no infringement. A hobby project can exist and be publicly discussed and documented without being either a product or sold. Over and out, Erik -- Do things that have never been done before. -- Russell Kirsch From penyuanhsing at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 11:33:15 2018 From: penyuanhsing at gmail.com (Pen-Yuan Hsing) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:33:15 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: <20180216111308.GA29968@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> References: <20180216111308.GA29968@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Message-ID: On 16/02/18 11:13, Erik Auerswald wrote: > Hi, > > I did not want to enter this flame war, but I want to point out an > obvious misunderstanding of the involved parties: > > On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 02:51:06PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> [...] >> now, it so happens in the case of HDMI that you can simply put an >> HDMI connector on the product.... what you CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO is >> put the *WORD* "HDMI" anywhere on your product, because that has >> SPECIFIC implications that the seller of that product HAS GONE THROUGH >> THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS. > > Without a "product" and a "seller" there can be no infringement. A hobby > project can exist and be publicly discussed and documented without being > either a product or sold. > > Over and out, > Erik I didn't want to enter this either. But I'd like to clarify that if it's copyright we're talking about, then having a "product" or "seller" doesn't matter. It's simply about the making of copies, and unlicensed copies are forbidden by default regardless of how the copies are used. I don't like it and disagree with it's whole premise (see onpon4's earlier comment) but that's how it works. From phil at hands.com Fri Feb 16 14:44:18 2018 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:44:18 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: <20180216111308.GA29968@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Message-ID: <87mv09t2nx.fsf@whist.hands.com> On Fri, 16 Feb 2018, Pen-Yuan Hsing wrote: > On 16/02/18 11:13, Erik Auerswald wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I did not want to enter this flame war, but I want to point out an >> obvious misunderstanding of the involved parties: >> >> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 02:51:06PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >>> [...] >>> now, it so happens in the case of HDMI that you can simply put an >>> HDMI connector on the product.... what you CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO is >>> put the *WORD* "HDMI" anywhere on your product, because that has >>> SPECIFIC implications that the seller of that product HAS GONE THROUGH >>> THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS. >> >> Without a "product" and a "seller" there can be no infringement. A hobby >> project can exist and be publicly discussed and documented without being >> either a product or sold. >> >> Over and out, >> Erik > > I didn't want to enter this either. But I'd like to clarify that if it's > copyright we're talking about, I strongly suspect that it is _not_ copyright that we're talking about. Until Luke or someone else points at an authoritative source to show otherwise, I would assume that he's just mixed up several of the barely related branches of law that people unhelpfully lump together under the "Intellectual Property" umbrella term. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 16:52:11 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:52:11 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: <87mv09t2nx.fsf@whist.hands.com> References: <20180216111308.GA29968@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> <87mv09t2nx.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: FYI -- mostly to Luke -- I've got a two-tier logo design drawn out on paper, just haven't had a chance to scan it yet. I have a doc appointment today -- gave myself a friggin limp trying to empty out that room that got leaked in -- when I get back from the docs cussing me out, I'll try and see if I can get my scanner to work. It's unfortunately in that problem room, but it itself escaped water damage. I just have to run a power cord real quick like. That should be about 4-4:30pm Eastern US time, with results hitting this list shortly thereafter... if I need more time, I'll let ya'll know. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 04:27:16 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 23:27:16 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: <20180216111308.GA29968@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> <87mv09t2nx.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: Well, that didn't work out. Luke, can I please ask you to hold out till Sunday? I have company tomorrow helping with that room and I'll be busy all day with that. I'm truly sorry to have to ask... From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 06:37:47 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 01:37:47 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer In-Reply-To: References: <20180216111308.GA29968@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> <87mv09t2nx.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: On 2/16/18, Christopher Havel wrote: > Well, that didn't work out. Luke, can I please ask you to hold out till > Sunday? I have company tomorrow helping with that room and I'll be busy all > day with that. > > I'm truly sorry to have to ask... There's no rush.. Nothing said that a logo has to be decided immediately. Luke and Ron are at conflict, because of fundamental ideals regarding serendipitous organization. Ron is skeptical of what good authority and one individual leading a troupe will bring the world. Luke is impassioned to bring about destined change as quickly and forcefully as possible. Ron is by no means an artist capable of inspiring serendipitous organization (no offense but the title is difficult to live up to), making the fellow very much a cynic. Settling this one argument by desperately trying to live up to that title, isn't going to end their standing conflict. Only bringing a real artist who can rally real attention can undo that. I agree with you about the two-tier logo, but it would take something really inventive to communicate effectively the idea of a risky amateur project across language barriers. I said once and I'll say again, someone should invite Wenqing Yan to participate in the project. https://www.yuumeiart.com/contact/ http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2017-January/012740.html From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 21:22:12 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 14:22:12 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Error trying to edit rhombus-tech wiki Message-ID: Trying to edit wiki page to add my name to list interested in pre-production board, et cetera. Is that page privileged? Sincerely, Richard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Error.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 32461 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Feb 19 21:59:02 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 21:59:02 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Error trying to edit rhombus-tech wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 9:22 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > Trying to edit wiki page to add my name to list interested in > pre-production board, et cetera. Is that page privileged? nope i have exactly the same error occurring, i'm forcing a rebuild which i *believe* recreates the cgi script... if it's not fixed it's something that phil is the person to ask for sorting it out. l. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Tue Feb 20 01:54:33 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 20:54:33 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Error trying to edit rhombus-tech wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The edits still succeed; the page just takes long to update. If you want to confirm your edits, just try editing the page again and you should see your changes in the source. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Feb 20 09:11:07 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:11:07 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Error trying to edit rhombus-tech wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 1:54 AM, Jean Flamelle wrote: > The edits still succeed; the page just takes long to update. for me the page never gets to the "edit" box because it says "invalid cgi" within a couple of seconds of pressing the "edit" link. l. From phil at hands.com Tue Feb 20 10:33:40 2018 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 11:33:40 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Error trying to edit rhombus-tech wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87mv04rlvf.fsf@whist.hands.com> On Mon, 19 Feb 2018, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 9:22 PM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: >> Trying to edit wiki page to add my name to list interested in >> pre-production board, et cetera. Is that page privileged? > > nope i have exactly the same error occurring, i'm forcing a rebuild > which i *believe* recreates the cgi script... if it's not fixed it's > something that phil is the person to ask for sorting it out. It is possible that fcgi was upset about something, as restarting that seems to have made things better, but I'm not 100% certain because I changed a couple of other things while I was about it. The other things are: setting ikiwiki to use git to track which files have changed, so that it doesn't need to scan the file system (only_committed_changes). setting it so that if ikiwiki.cgi ends up waiting for locks, it tells you to wait after 10 seconds, and starts retrying (cgi_overload_*) hopefully the first will speed things up a little, and the latter do no harm. I also note that 'be' (the bug tracker) takes a couple of seconds at the end of every site rebuild, which strikes me as a bit slow given the lack of recent activity. Luke, are you actually using 'be' at present? Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY From phil at hands.com Tue Feb 20 10:36:31 2018 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 11:36:31 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Error trying to edit rhombus-tech wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87k1v8rlqo.fsf@whist.hands.com> On Tue, 20 Feb 2018, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 1:54 AM, Jean Flamelle wrote: > >> The edits still succeed; the page just takes long to update. > > for me the page never gets to the "edit" box because it says "invalid > cgi" within a couple of seconds of pressing the "edit" link. I think that's something that's being cached in your browser. Try reloading that page and/or flushing related browser history. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Feb 20 16:14:17 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 16:14:17 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Error trying to edit rhombus-tech wiki In-Reply-To: <87mv04rlvf.fsf@whist.hands.com> References: <87mv04rlvf.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Philip Hands wrote: > hopefully the first will speed things up a little, and the latter do no > harm. ok awesome, thanks phil > I also note that 'be' (the bug tracker) takes a couple of seconds at the > end of every site rebuild, which strikes me as a bit slow given the > lack of recent activity. Luke, are you actually using 'be' at present? mmm.... *stress*... no... but it would be a pain if it was switched off as i would then have to specifically ask you for it to be re-enabled. is it ok to leave it? l. From phil at hands.com Tue Feb 20 20:12:15 2018 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:12:15 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Error trying to edit rhombus-tech wiki In-Reply-To: References: <87mv04rlvf.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: <87a7w3s9nk.fsf@whist.hands.com> On Tue, 20 Feb 2018, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Philip Hands wrote: > >> hopefully the first will speed things up a little, and the latter do no >> harm. > > ok awesome, thanks phil > >> I also note that 'be' (the bug tracker) takes a couple of seconds at the >> end of every site rebuild, which strikes me as a bit slow given the >> lack of recent activity. Luke, are you actually using 'be' at present? > > mmm.... *stress*... no... but it would be a pain if it was switched > off as i would then have to specifically ask you for it to be > re-enabled. is it ok to leave it? I think it's fine to leave it, but then I don't often edit the wiki. ;-) It's only a second or two, so I doubt it's going to kill anyone to wait. I suspect the git thing will save more than that. If the delay upsets people it _might_ be worth trying to track down the pages that are taking longest to build, and tweak them to be quicker. There are some suggestions on the ikiwiki site about that. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 12:49:06 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 07:49:06 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left Message-ID: Disclaimer: this is a brainstorm of ideas on what is practical. I am a free culture advocate. I understand that without invention my own ideals have practical limitations. I don't believe that invention is impractical, however accomplishment without first inventing is. If any of what is said causes you to question OUR ideals, please meditate on and rationalize what was said: I HOPE YOU DON'T CHANGE WHAT YOU BELIEVE. Please avoid getting triggered, please don't start a flame, and please understand not every issue needs resolution immediately. Most ideas in this thread will need to be outrageous to be helpful. If everyone disregarded those ideas simply for being outrageous, they will never develop into less outrageous ideas. /end-disclaimer I was thinking about some of what Luke has said about certification law, and the only way I can rationalize it is to doubt this has been tested in court absent of patents-held. None of these standards organizations have problems owning patents, only free culture advocates do. Maybe some slight cognitive dissonance is involved (sorry to say so bluntly Luke), but, if these types of precedents are to be held up absent patents-held, that would mean an expansion of standard copyright I don't think many courts would be comfortable with. At the end of the day, if people can just copy the standard disregarding anyone present as a certification entity, there is no economic support to be had for anyone involved. It wouldn't agree with my morals if someone had to ask Luke's permission to make an EOMA card, but I know otherwise isn't practical yet. Enter Patent-Left. The hack-solution is to make the standard itself an "open patent license" that if anyone can follow, then they are assumed to possess the license with burden of proof falling on anyone wishing to prove they aren't following it. This is a hack, because, much like invariant sections in the GDFL, an author can arbitrarily refuse changes to any certain part(s) they choose. How do we capture the moral behind why patents exist, while still honoring free culture? *stop, meditate, write what you think, then keep reading* vvv *skip this if you careless about learning economics* vvv Perhaps, we can make rules about "contractual equity" so, if someone wants to sell what they make, they pick a currency "declare 'owning' an instance of the license" which only becomes valid after selling "equity" towards a right-to-cancel-the-license to a minimum number of I.D.-ed citizens of a country minting that currency at a minimum price (in technical terms, a minimum market cap per a minimum capita). Oh hell that's messy. Hard to believe that's less messy than the first hack. Let me list the problems with my own proposal. Economically: What/Who determines a fair market cap and a fair minimum capita for a given patentleft license? How do we establish sybil protection across cryptocurrency markets (what "should be" a "citizen" to them?)? Politically: How can a market cap fairly account for currency conversions? How can a person from a country minting a currency with a smaller market exert the same influence over a project as there larger market counterparts? How do people from countries without a national currency even participate, much less equally? How do we prevent citizens from countries with multi-currency systems from getting unfairly punishing or rewarding treatment (if only one currency is recognized, that's punishing, but, if all are recognized, that's rewarding, since there are drawbacks to multi-currency systems [including tangibly devaluing* all currencies involved compared to adopting any one as a single-currency] and those who can choose between currencies exert an influence over what currencies a project uses that others can't)? Is there any way legally possible anywhere to prevent people with multiple citizenships from being able to be counted as that many multiple people? Morally: We would be treating any one individual as not "good enough" to copy/modify a patent unless they have "this" many supporters who are at least "this" economically involved, which is unfair by my morals and, if avoidable, would likely render every other question easily answerable. While associating people with their nation's currencies prevents manipulating the value of currencies they have no stake in, using official documentation associates people with a nation that has chosen them rather than a nation they have chosen, which is unfair by my morals and, if avoidable, would likely render every political question here easily answerable (except that, if someone solves this "hard problem" only in the context of currencies rather than in general, they inherently give money as a concept extra utility, which bothers my personal ethic). If equity is transferable, that would allow individuals who haven't contributed to a project in no way to acquire leverage to make decisions about that project's direction, but, if equity isn't transferable, interest in judging the project from eventually dying (metaphorically and literally) and, while if trade-able then the right-to-cancel-the-license could be as fungible as whatever is traded despite conflicting interests, if not trade-able then there may be little way to gratify or enable those who strive to ensure interest in judging a project doesn't die (metaphorically and literally) (except that, even if a messy hack protects a project with trade-able equity towards right-to-cancel-the-license from conflicting interests, using money to enable without gratifying a receiver is a classic "hard problem" in economics which is the root cause and would bother my personal ethic to see ignored). * Tangible Value: a Bayesian sum* of the items on a Bayesian list** of all that a currency could buy which one could sue discrimination if denied sale, counting every item on that list as a fraction of an item divided by the number of currencies it's legally guaranteed a right-of-sale. * Bayesian sums treat all that is different as different regardless of how different. ** Bayesian lists treat any number of identical items as that many different items. ^^^ *end skip* ^^^ IMO, a clean solution: greatly motivates forming large/complex cooperatives while not requiring the participation of more than one individual; guarantees that trust in a project comes from authority on that project and authority on a project comes from research of that project; all while ensuring attention to a project is proportional to trust in that project. Please have some helpful input/feedback. Thank you in advance. If in doubt, post away anyway: I won't fault you! From rhkramer at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 14:01:12 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 09:01:12 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201802210901.12321.rhkramer@gmail.com> Just two questions (without carefully reading all that you wrote): * what country do you live in? * if not the US, does the country you live in have a body of trademark law? I suppose you really only need to answer the 2nd for now. On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 07:49:06 AM Jean Flamelle wrote: > Disclaimer: this is a brainstorm of ideas on what is practical. I am a > free culture advocate. I understand that without invention my own > ideals have practical limitations. I don't believe that invention is > impractical, however accomplishment without first inventing is. From adam at vany.ca Wed Feb 21 14:44:51 2018 From: adam at vany.ca (Adam Van Ymeren) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 09:44:51 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <048AA8EA-9858-48DA-A5EB-59A5EBC935E1@vany.ca> On February 21, 2018 7:49:06 AM EST, Jean Flamelle wrote: > >None of these standards organizations have problems owning patents, >only free culture advocates do. Maybe some slight cognitive dissonance >is involved (sorry to say so bluntly Luke), but, if these types of >precedents are to be held up absent patents-held, that would mean an >expansion of standard copyright I don't think many courts would be >comfortable with. > >At the end of the day, if people can just copy the standard >disregarding anyone present as a certification entity, there is no >economic support to be had for anyone involved. It wouldn't agree with >my morals if someone had to ask Luke's permission to make an EOMA >card, but I know otherwise isn't practical yet. Anyone can make an EOMA card, just like you can make a USB device or PCI Express card. However you cannot use the EOMA certification mark without Luke's permission. Just like you can't use the USB certification mark (that little USB Compatible sticker you see on the box of any USB peripheral) without the permission of the USB authority. This is done to protect consumers. If something bears the certification mark of a standard, then you as a consumer can be confident that it is compatible with the standard, that it will work with your other USB devices or your existing EOMA enclosure. It's the same as the free software foundations Respects Your Freedom mark. You need the permission of the FSF to use that mark. This protects consumer because they can see that mark and be confident that the device respects their freedoms. This is why Luke is very vocal about protecting the EOMA mark. If a bunch of projects are built that purport to be EOMA compatible devices, and they end up being incompatible or worse dangerous, it will make the EOMA certification mark useless and destroy the reputation of the project as a whole, stopping any hope of EOMA having the global impact were aiming for. First impressions are everything in technology. If rumours start that EOMA cards aren't as compatible as advertised or are dangerous, most people will write off the project in their minds as a failure and never look at it again. You don't need anyone's permission to follow a standard, you do need their permission to market yourself as having done so. This protects consumers and IMO is a good thing. I like the confidence the RYF mark gives me when I'm shopping for electronics. I think there's some misconceptions about what Luke is trying to prevent. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 00:58:40 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 19:58:40 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left In-Reply-To: <201802210901.12321.rhkramer@gmail.com> References: <201802210901.12321.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/21/18, rhkramer at gmail.com wrote: > Just two questions (without carefully reading all that you wrote): > > * what country do you live in? > > * if not the US, does the country you live in have a body of trademark > law? > > I suppose you really only need to answer the 2nd for now. > Yes @Adam, I may be wrong but I believe that would require a massive "all markets" release. Even if the standard is copyrighted that I doubt using that as a protection against a copy-cat of a "similar" standard has been tested in very many courts (I have no expertise to really advise). If there aren't enough EOMA cards in a market for people to become familiar with the certification, before they start trying to copy it without the certification or with their own made up certifications. I hope no one does that, but I think it'd be foolish to assume no one will. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Feb 24 09:08:53 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:08:53 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:49 PM, Jean Flamelle wrote: > Disclaimer: this is a brainstorm of ideas on what is practical. I am a appreciated. > economic support to be had for anyone involved. It wouldn't agree with > my morals if someone had to ask Luke's permission to make an EOMA > card, remember that software can always be fixed after it is released. hardware *CANNOT BE FIXED*. chinese clones of USB3 cables that fail to obey the USB3 charging standard. chinese knock-offs of chargeable fidget-spinners that explode and cause lithium battery fires. so the most extreme case is also the most damaging, but it doesn't actually matter which is more "extreme", *any* damage to the reputation of a mass-volume Certified Standard is enough to completely destroy the Standard, due to the sheer volume of people who will blame the STANDARD *and* the Standard's CREATOR. question: how do you propose that people not get murdered by the incompetence of an individual who blatantly disregards a hardware standard's safety warnings? (we are extremely lucky that nobody has murdered anyone through the deployment of "bad-usb"). l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Feb 24 09:13:11 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:13:11 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left In-Reply-To: <048AA8EA-9858-48DA-A5EB-59A5EBC935E1@vany.ca> References: <048AA8EA-9858-48DA-A5EB-59A5EBC935E1@vany.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 2:44 PM, Adam Van Ymeren wrote: > I think there's some misconceptions about what Luke is trying to prevent. looks like it. in the extreme case i am trying to prevent people being murdered. this is not an exaggeration. i don't understand why people don't understand this. btw it turns out that Certification Marks are perfectly compatible with the GPL licenses. there are specific sections (in all variants), "if there is any conflict with this license that prevents you from fulfilling your obligations under this GPL license, you are required to cease distribution" or words to that effect. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Feb 24 09:21:46 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:21:46 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left In-Reply-To: References: <201802210901.12321.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 12:58 AM, Jean Flamelle wrote: > markets" release. Even if the standard is copyrighted that I doubt > using that as a protection against a copy-cat of a "similar" standard > has been tested in very many courts (I have no expertise to really > advise). it does, and it has. the cases that i've heard about have involved Trademarks rather than Certification Marks: the same branch of law applies. it's very simple: if someone creates a "clone" and the *clone* kills someone or starts destroying and/or damaging electronic devices, someone has to take action. what would you prefer? that someone *died* because someone made a clone,,, just so they could make some money? https://noram.pecb.com/en/about-noram damn. going to have to set something up that's pretty much exactly like every single one of the *9* pages listed on the right-hand side. dang. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat Feb 24 13:48:01 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 08:48:01 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left In-Reply-To: References: <201802210901.12321.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/24/18, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > it does, and it has. the cases that i've heard about have involved > Trademarks rather than Certification Marks: the same branch of law > applies. it's very simple: if someone creates a "clone" and the > *clone* kills someone or starts destroying and/or damaging electronic > devices, someone has to take action. > That makes sense. Recognizing standards organisations as a victim (of eroding public trust), that motivates the organization to perform more of a watch-dog service by initiating class-action lawsuits on behalf of themselves and the public-at-large. > > https://noram.pecb.com/en/about-noram > > damn. going to have to set something up that's pretty much exactly > like every single one of the *9* pages listed on the right-hand side. > > dang. > I'll help with editing if welcome. Bear in mind, the most vital future audience of said documents will likely be the people you end up training down the road. The ethics of the community may be obvious to the most vocal of us on the list, but having impactful reminders set in stone will sustain the focus of those who are less vocal and forget to set reminders for themselves of their own principles. (such people are rather common, but, for the more passionate among us, they maybe difficult to understand or empathize with. Such documents fuel cooperation when well written, but, also bear in mind, PECB's audience likely reads much more densely than ours will.) > question: how do you propose that people not get murdered by the > incompetence of an individual who blatantly disregards a hardware > standard's safety warnings? (we are extremely lucky that nobody has > murdered anyone through the deployment of "bad-usb"). Yup, I'm thinking longterm and asking myself "out-loud" exactly that. Setting aside these really hack-y patent-left ideas, I can only imagine expressing deeper morals in design of global information networks is a prerequisite to any clean fix here and that will take a very long while even upon interest in such initiative hopefully growing soon. Another prerequisite is probably the simplification of PCB-design and more interest in auditing, but that's not even a topic that's noticeably talked about, except in the fringes of the open source community and often only with regards to RISC. There are people who may have access to a large community without access to the internet (say an oppressive regime or in the wilderness), who might get a hold of a card with offline documentation and CAD-designs. Their adaptations and designs shouldn't be de facto dangerous if found and uploaded to the internet. I would hope this can be remedied before we colonize Mars. I never doubted you about the dangers. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Feb 24 14:36:50 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:36:50 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left In-Reply-To: References: <201802210901.12321.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 1:48 PM, Jean Flamelle wrote: >> devices, someone has to take action. >> > > That makes sense. > Recognizing standards organisations as a victim (of eroding public > trust), that motivates the organization to perform more of a watch-dog > service by initiating class-action lawsuits on behalf of themselves > and the public-at-large. exactly. the nightmare scenario, and one of the reasons for being so extremely strict about this. and also why the impartiality is critical (no being an actual "business"). but, most important, we need to work with the tools that we have *right now*, and those tools are not patents, but Certification Mark(s). patents are obtainable on *business* processes and *inventions*, not APIs or mathematics or "obvious stuff". a Standard is not a business process, some parts of it are blindingly-obvious common sense, and in this particular case it's an aggregation of other standards. it wouldn't pass the "innovative step" process of patenting in a million years. oh, and it's comprised of prior art. and i've published it. and discussed it at length. deliberately. >> >> https://noram.pecb.com/en/about-noram >> >> damn. going to have to set something up that's pretty much exactly >> like every single one of the *9* pages listed on the right-hand side. >> >> dang. >> > > I'll help with editing if welcome. really appreciated. > Bear in mind, the most vital future audience of said documents will > likely be the people you end up training down the road. yes. i made a huge reorganisation effort about... 2 years ago. the thing is that there are actually *multiple* sets of documents that need to be written, one set for *each* type of person: END_USER, TECHNICAL_END_USER, MANUFACTURER, REPURPOSER and so on. hmmm.... would it be reasonable to expect end-users to agree to commit to proper re-purposing instead of disposal as "junk" [recycling / discarding of perfectly good Cards / Housings]? and would it be reasonable to expect a Manufacturer to sell it with an enforceable license agreement, both for the hardware *and* the software? we get software EULAs all the time with major electronics manufacturers, so i don't see why not... > The ethics of > the community may be obvious to the most vocal of us on the list, but > having impactful reminders set in stone will sustain the focus of > those who are less vocal and forget to set reminders for themselves of > their own principles. precisely. i can't hand over the project to such a group *until* that's absolutely clear. > (such people are rather common, but, for the more passionate among us, > they maybe difficult to understand or empathize with. Such documents > fuel cooperation when well written, but, also bear in mind, PECB's > audience likely reads much more densely than ours will.) in certain segments... yes. which says that for the END_USER segment (audience), the documents must be much, *much* simpler. >> question: how do you propose that people not get murdered by the >> incompetence of an individual who blatantly disregards a hardware >> standard's safety warnings? (we are extremely lucky that nobody has >> murdered anyone through the deployment of "bad-usb"). > > Yup, I'm thinking longterm and asking myself "out-loud" exactly that. > Setting aside these really hack-y patent-left ideas, I can only > imagine expressing deeper morals in design of global information > networks is a prerequisite to any clean fix here and that will take a > very long while even upon interest in such initiative hopefully > growing soon. there's not really a lot that can be done without drastically pushing up the costs to the point where nobody would buy anything. but also i feel that the fact that people *haven't* created USB-killing-devices, despite the opportunity to do so (in the context of EOMA68 not being in the picture) and despite the fact that it's public knowledge on how to do it, tells us that people - in general - recognise that deliberate destruction of peoples' electronics devices via ubiquitous interfaces just... is anathemic. > Another prerequisite is probably the simplification of PCB-design and this is why i kept the micro-desktop reference design so basic. i remember jonathon expressed complete surprise at learning that. > more interest in auditing, but that's not even a topic that's > noticeably talked about, except in the fringes of the open source > community and often only with regards to RISC. software again. hardware is *hard*. > There are people who may have access to a large community without > access to the internet (say an oppressive regime or in the > wilderness), who might get a hold of a card with offline documentation > and CAD-designs. Their adaptations and designs shouldn't be de facto > dangerous if found and uploaded to the internet. that's a tough one to solve. > I would hope this can be remedied before we colonize Mars. ha :) > I never doubted you about the dangers. ... big responsibility, ehn? l. From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Sun Feb 25 02:29:50 2018 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 21:29:50 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left In-Reply-To: References: <048AA8EA-9858-48DA-A5EB-59A5EBC935E1@vany.ca> Message-ID: <20180225022950.GA7301@topoi.pooq.com> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 09:13:11AM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 2:44 PM, Adam Van Ymeren wrote: > > > I think there's some misconceptions about what Luke is trying to prevent. > > looks like it. in the extreme case i am trying to prevent people > being murdered. this is not an exaggeration. i don't understand why > people don't understand this. > > btw it turns out that Certification Marks are perfectly compatible > with the GPL licenses. there are specific sections (in all variants), > "if there is any conflict with this license that prevents you from > fulfilling your obligations under this GPL license, you are required > to cease distribution" or words to that effect. And all you have to do to distribute uder a GPL licence is ths bake sure that there are no certification marks in it. That doesn't mean you can't have source code that can be compile-time parameterized with a certificatin mark. But anyone modifying the certiied source code will presumably have to have it recertified before using the certification mark on it. -- hendrik From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Feb 25 10:30:55 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 10:30:55 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left In-Reply-To: <20180225022950.GA7301@topoi.pooq.com> References: <048AA8EA-9858-48DA-A5EB-59A5EBC935E1@vany.ca> <20180225022950.GA7301@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:29 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > And all you have to do to distribute uder a GPL licence is ths bake sure > that there are no certification marks in it. > > That doesn't mean you can't have source code that can be compile-time > parameterized with a certificatin mark. > > But anyone modifying the certiied source code will presumably have to > have it recertified before using the certification mark on it. ... *thinks*.... ok so let's think this through. what do proprietary companies owning Certification Marks do.... o arse, you're right: they charge staggeringly-large amounts of money and place huge burdens on people. FCC 2G/3G/LTE Certification (per firmware revision, per product, per *version* of product, per *company* e.g. AT&T... $50k *EACH*...), BLE Certification (USD $10,000 per software release *per factory*), and so on. that's gonna get really old, really quickly. i know that the FSF, whom people are in effect "Authorised to Represent" when they received the RYF Endorsement Certification Mark, simply trust people to "get it right". they *don't* ask that people "re-certify", they said to me, basically, "you represent us and our good name, don't screw up by doing things like add proprietary firmware on it, or modify the description so people get confused and buy the wrong thing". they *didn't* say "You Must Re-Certify If You Make Even One Tiny Change". so i believe there's room for both types of approaches... the question is: which approach could risk causing harm? btw, just to be clear: anyone who *guarantees* full libre compliance (releases everything under libre licenses - casework, CAD, source, everything) zero charges *and* assistance in any way possible. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Feb 25 10:33:50 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 10:33:50 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] http://libre-riscv.org new domain Message-ID: i've just set up a new domain in the past 36 hours, http://libre-riscv.org the first processor on it is the shakti m_class one. there's also a bugtracker http://bugs.libre-riscv.org which is in the process of being populated. i'll also set up mailman (if i can extract it from the clutches of apache2... i'm using nginx now on libre-riscv.org). l. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Mon Feb 26 07:20:44 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 02:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left In-Reply-To: References: <048AA8EA-9858-48DA-A5EB-59A5EBC935E1@vany.ca> <20180225022950.GA7301@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On 2/25/18, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > ... *thinks*.... ok so let's think this through. > > what do proprietary companies owning Certification Marks do.... o > arse, you're right: they charge staggeringly-large amounts of money > and place huge burdens on people. FCC 2G/3G/LTE Certification (per > firmware revision, per product, per *version* of product, per > *company* e.g. AT&T... $50k *EACH*...), BLE Certification (USD $10,000 > per software release *per factory*), and so on. I heard that's what keeps fairphone out of the US. > that's gonna get really old, really quickly. Already has for me tbh xD - > i know that the FSF, whom people are in effect "Authorised to > Represent" when they received the RYF Endorsement Certification Mark, That gets to an interesting idea of patent-left: what-if anyone receiving certification to use a hypothetical "left"-patent, was as a condition of the license allowed to certify anyone else irrevocably unless their use or use of anyone directly certified or endorsed by them, causes proven harm with their use to anyone emotionally, physically, or socially---aside from game-theory-arbitrary conflict that just happens to involve an instance of the patent's use through no fault of the implementation. Sounds like MLM. We could actually add that if the patent is used without license it's only violated if said harm is done, except burden of proof them shifts to the person using the patent to demonstrate no harm was done (including to the licensor-network which may have been convinced waste excessively taxing effort to ensure the implementation didn't cause harm which could have been dedicated elsewhere protecting public trust from damage that was indeed caused prove-ably because the community was too focused on a false alarm which could have reasonably been avoided). I hope that idea is less dense than the economic one earlier. "~ > simply trust people to "get it right". they *don't* ask that people > "re-certify", they said to me, basically, "you represent us and our > good name, don't screw up by doing things like add proprietary > firmware on it, or modify the description so people get confused and > buy the wrong thing". ~" I like this > they *didn't* say "You Must Re-Certify If You Make Even One Tiny Change". *thumbs up* > so i believe there's room for both types of approaches... the > question is: which approach could risk causing harm? btw, just to be > clear: anyone who *guarantees* full libre compliance (releases > everything under libre licenses - casework, CAD, source, everything) > zero charges *and* assistance in any way possible. I think there is too, though I hope to make the ever more communal option safer and easier to protect legally with this brainstorm. That's still a longterm goal. We can always run the risk of being too strict and loosen the way we do things later, so long as you, RMS, and the entirety of the FSF stick to their guns (morals). (which should that even be a question at this point?) It's like asking if someone with endorsement from peta will ever start killing animals for sport. (maybe because somewhere down the line they started to blindly assume humane population control strategies will never succeed) Sure its happened before, but the question asks the probability of a scenario so rare requiring so much conspiracy that it borders upon irritating even the most pragmatic actor. Thank you to Luke and everyone contributing to make this all happen btw. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Mon Feb 26 10:13:22 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 05:13:22 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] http://libre-riscv.org new domain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's a really exciting step! On 2/25/18, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > i've just set up a new domain in the past 36 hours, http://libre-riscv.org > > the first processor on it is the shakti m_class one. there's also a > bugtracker http://bugs.libre-riscv.org which is in the process of > being populated. i'll also set up mailman (if i can extract it from > the clutches of apache2... i'm using nginx now on libre-riscv.org). > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Feb 26 14:41:30 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:41:30 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Patent-Left In-Reply-To: References: <048AA8EA-9858-48DA-A5EB-59A5EBC935E1@vany.ca> <20180225022950.GA7301@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 7:20 AM, Jean Flamelle wrote: >> and place huge burdens on people. FCC 2G/3G/LTE Certification (per >> firmware revision, per product, per *version* of product, per >> *company* e.g. AT&T... $50k *EACH*...), BLE Certification (USD $10,000 >> per software release *per factory*), and so on. > > I heard that's what keeps fairphone out of the US. motorola got round it by *WRITING* the FCC tests... and charging themselves half the fees (*only* $25k per product per version per firmware-release per network). whereas every other company would go after world networks and finally return to the US, motorola instead went the other way round precisely because it's so hard everyone else stays clear. >> that's gonna get really old, really quickly. > > Already has for me tbh xD nnnnngh :) > - > >> i know that the FSF, whom people are in effect "Authorised to >> Represent" when they received the RYF Endorsement Certification Mark, > > That gets to an interesting idea of patent-left: what-if anyone > receiving certification to use a hypothetical "left"-patent, was as a > condition of the license allowed to certify anyone else irrevocably > unless their use or use of anyone directly certified or endorsed by > them, causes proven harm with their use to anyone emotionally, > physically, or socially---aside from game-theory-arbitrary conflict > that just happens to involve an instance of the patent's use through > no fault of the implementation. Sounds like MLM. yehyeh :) ok i'll have to think this through. my initial reaction is, manufacturers absolutely not, end-users *maybe*. actual patents: almost certainly not. people genuinely hate them with a vengeance such that it *doesn't matter* if it's a workable idea. also, patents are not the right vehicle (and are stupidly expensive to register) >> so i believe there's room for both types of approaches... the >> question is: which approach could risk causing harm? btw, just to be >> clear: anyone who *guarantees* full libre compliance (releases >> everything under libre licenses - casework, CAD, source, everything) >> zero charges *and* assistance in any way possible. > > I think there is too, though I hope to make the ever more communal > option safer and easier to protect legally with this brainstorm. > That's still a longterm goal. We can always run the risk of being too > strict and loosen the way we do things later, so long as you, RMS, and > the entirety of the FSF stick to their guns (morals). yehyeh. > (which should that even be a question at this point?) well, the question is: what would happen such that i would be willing to throw away (waste) the efforts of seven years of my life (so far)? a billion dollars with no conditions / strings attached (no non-compete clauses so i could start again immediately) would probably do it... > It's like asking if someone with endorsement from peta will ever start > killing animals for sport. > (maybe because somewhere down the line they started to blindly assume > humane population control strategies will never succeed) yeh you can never say never: remember, "certainty is a pathological state of mind" > Thank you to Luke and everyone contributing to make this all happen btw. thx jean. l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Tue Feb 27 16:46:41 2018 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 17:46:41 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] OSHW git/pull? Message-ID: Interesting lecture: https://hackaday.com/2018/02/27/can-open-source-hardware-be-like-open-source-software/ From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Feb 28 21:09:42 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 14:09:42 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Testing: GPIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After realizing that you mentioned all 8 GPIO lines were on the 20-pin expansion header J5 in the microdesktop case, I consulted the microdesktop schematic for clues. I suspect the UART and EOMA I2C pins should be left to those functions. I have added tables to the "Testing"[*] page under the "GPIO" section with my nominations for which pins to test and their mapping back to A20 register bits. Luke, does this match your understanding of the GPIO pins to test? Reference: [*] http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/testing From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Feb 28 21:41:24 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 21:41:24 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Testing: GPIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:09 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > After realizing that you mentioned all 8 GPIO lines were on the 20-pin > expansion header J5 in the microdesktop case, I consulted the > microdesktop schematic for clues. > > I suspect the UART and EOMA I2C pins should be left to those functions. yehyeh. UART implicitly tested "if console works it's probably good" and I2C with a bus scan, i2c-utils, if 0x51 EEPROM shows up, it's good. > I have added tables to the "Testing"[*] page under the "GPIO" section > with my nominations for which pins to test and their mapping back to > A20 register bits. awesome. it'll have to be done manually for now, > Luke, does this match your understanding of the GPIO pins to test? yep - GPIO_19,20,21 missing. > Reference: > [*] http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/testing hey that looks great!