From pablo at parobalth.org Thu Nov 2 12:08:48 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo Rath) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 13:08:48 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Communication improvements (Update Oct 10th) Message-ID: <20171102120848.yiililnjxhg2tklv@cherry> Hi Luke, In your update from October 10th you asked the questions: "How could communication and access to information about this project be improved?" My reply is quite late because I have been on vacation. I think you should not take the opinion of an individual person too seriously, altough I know this is easier said than done. The overall communication of this project is in my opinion very good and incredibly detailed but only if you are willing to invest your time and _read_. I think what we need quite urgent is a doable shipping date somewhere in 2018 and a roadmap. For example: Will the computer cards ship when they are ready, even if the printed Laptop parts are not? My current poor estimate is a shipping date somewhere in the second quarter of 2018 if all goes well. On the Crowdsupply page there is still the misleading claim that orders placed now will ship Nov. 15th 2017. I have seen such claims backfire in other crowdfunded projects and recommend to change it immediately. kind regards Pablo From vincent.legoll at gmail.com Thu Nov 2 12:18:00 2017 From: vincent.legoll at gmail.com (Vincent Legoll) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 13:18:00 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Communication improvements (Update Oct 10th) In-Reply-To: <20171102120848.yiililnjxhg2tklv@cherry> References: <20171102120848.yiililnjxhg2tklv@cherry> Message-ID: Hello, On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Pablo Rath wrote: > On the Crowdsupply page there is still the misleading claim that orders > placed now will ship Nov. 15th 2017. I have seen such claims backfire in > other crowdfunded projects and recommend to change it immediately. +1, even if there's no date to replace the probably wrong one displayed on CS page -- Vincent Legoll From doark at mail.com Thu Nov 9 17:32:16 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:32:16 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] gnu/linux distro of interest? In-Reply-To: <5e733d25-a2a0-39ca-b960-416196c5f7c0@posteo.de> References: <59A1B6CD.9070402@openmailbox.org> <5e733d25-a2a0-39ca-b960-416196c5f7c0@posteo.de> Message-ID: <20171109123216.155bb2df@ulgy_thing> On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 19:35:06 -0400 zap wrote: > On 08/26/2017 01:58 PM, mdn wrote: > > Sharing this if anyone is interested > > https://sourcemage.org/ > I am... I would like to know if it works in qemu first though... Isn't sourcemage linux dead? I downloaded it after reading a thread about gentoo and debian users being dissatisfied with either. It uses kernel 2.6.xx and looks like development is dead. Sincerely, David ------------ Instructions for feeding: Microsoft Live Alligators. Politicians Truth Serum. Trolls Starve! Volunteers Docs, Compliments, Suggestions, and FLOSS. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Nov 11 00:22:01 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 00:22:01 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Communication improvements (Update Oct 10th) In-Reply-To: References: <20171102120848.yiililnjxhg2tklv@cherry> Message-ID: Hi vincent joshuas changed date. Am in sz at maker faire phone typing 1 finger thank you for your thoughts really appreciated , hdmi review needs to complete hope all is well with richard and family On Thursday, November 2, 2017, Vincent Legoll wrote: > Hello, > > On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Pablo Rath > wrote: > > On the Crowdsupply page there is still the misleading claim that orders > > placed now will ship Nov. 15th 2017. I have seen such claims backfire in > > other crowdfunded projects and recommend to change it immediately. > > +1, even if there's no date to replace the probably wrong one displayed > on CS page > > -- > Vincent Legoll > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From vkontogpls at gmail.com Sat Nov 11 15:10:47 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 17:10:47 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Communication improvements (Update Oct 10th) In-Reply-To: References: <20171102120848.yiililnjxhg2tklv@cherry> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 2:22 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > Hi vincent joshuas changed date. Am in sz at maker faire phone typing 1 > finger thank you for your thoughts really appreciated , hdmi review needs > to complete hope all is well with richard and family > Did you really manage to properly quote on a dumb phone with one finger? I'm impressed. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Nov 12 00:16:16 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 00:16:16 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Communication improvements (Update Oct 10th) In-Reply-To: References: <20171102120848.yiililnjxhg2tklv@cherry> Message-ID: On Saturday, November 11, 2017, Bill Kontos wrote: > On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 2:22 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > wrote: > > Hi vincent joshuas changed date. Am in sz at maker faire phone typing 1 > > finger thank you for your thoughts really appreciated , hdmi review needs > > to complete hope all is well with richard and family > > > > Did you really manage to properly quote on a dumb phone with one > finger? I'm impressed. No, tioyal arse totsak arse! Rottal ARSE total accident > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 00:18:35 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 19:18:35 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Communication improvements (Update Oct 10th) In-Reply-To: References: <20171102120848.yiililnjxhg2tklv@cherry> Message-ID: Luke, sometimes autocorrect is actually useful... ;) :P From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Nov 12 01:31:23 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 01:31:23 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Communication improvements (Update Oct 10th) In-Reply-To: References: <20171102120848.yiililnjxhg2tklv@cherry> Message-ID: Wheres the bitton on the qwerty keyboard for that? :) On Sunday, November 12, 2017, Christopher Havel wrote: > Luke, sometimes autocorrect is actually useful... ;) :P > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 01:35:47 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 20:35:47 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Communication improvements (Update Oct 10th) In-Reply-To: References: <20171102120848.yiililnjxhg2tklv@cherry> Message-ID: There isn't one. It just does its thing... unless your phone is a Nokia 5110, in which case it's essentially entirely unbreakable, but missing that important feature. From cvs268 at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 08:52:56 2017 From: cvs268 at gmail.com (Chinmay V S) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 14:22:56 +0530 Subject: [Arm-netbook] SHAKTI processor project - 6 processors based on RISC-V Message-ID: Found out today about the SHAKTI processor. An university project that aims to build 6 variants of processors based on the RISC-V ISA Project Home Page: http://rise.cse.iitm.ac.in/shakti.html Few (all?) code-drops: https://bitbucket.org/casl/shakti_public HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15684225 regards CVS From contact at paulk.fr Mon Nov 13 10:57:31 2017 From: contact at paulk.fr (Paul Kocialkowski) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 11:57:31 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM Hardware Enablement Devroom Message-ID: <1510570651.1176.2.camel@paulk.fr> A Hardware Enablement devroom will be taking place at FOSDEM this year, on Sunday 10 December 2017. This newly-created devroom is the result of 3 proposals that were merged together. It is co-organized by several individuals. The devroom covers all aspects related to hardware enablement and support with free software, including aspects related to boot software, firmwares, drivers and userspace tools and adaptation. Proposals for talks related to these topics are welcome and can be submitted until Sunday 26 November 2017 via the pentabarf interface. Short talks are encouraged over longer ones in order to cover a wide range of topics. The announcement for the devroom, that contains all the useful information, was published at: https://lists.fosdem.org/pipermail/fosdem/2017-October/002649.html Cheers and see you at FOSDEM! -- Paul Kocialkowski, developer of free digital technology and hardware support Website: https://www.paulk.fr/ Coding blog: https://code.paulk.fr/ Git repositories: https://git.paulk.fr/ https://git.code.paulk.fr/ From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Nov 13 12:38:58 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 12:38:58 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM Hardware Enablement Devroom In-Reply-To: <1510570651.1176.2.camel@paulk.fr> References: <1510570651.1176.2.camel@paulk.fr> Message-ID: Thx paul will sort something out asap, am in hk On Monday, November 13, 2017, Paul Kocialkowski wrote: > A Hardware Enablement devroom will be taking place at FOSDEM this year, > on Sunday 10 December 2017. This newly-created devroom is the result of > 3 proposals that were merged together. It is co-organized by several > individuals. > > The devroom covers all aspects related to hardware enablement and > support with free software, including aspects related to boot software, > firmwares, drivers and userspace tools and adaptation. > > Proposals for talks related to these topics are welcome and can be > submitted until Sunday 26 November 2017 via the pentabarf interface. > Short talks are encouraged over longer ones in order to cover a wide > range of topics. > > The announcement for the devroom, that contains all the useful > information, was published at: > https://lists.fosdem.org/pipermail/fosdem/2017-October/002649.html > > Cheers and see you at FOSDEM! > > -- > Paul Kocialkowski, developer of free digital technology and hardware > support > > Website: https://www.paulk.fr/ > Coding blog: https://code.paulk.fr/ > Git repositories: https://git.paulk.fr/ https://git.code.paulk.fr/ > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Nov 13 12:54:40 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 12:54:40 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] SHAKTI processor project - 6 processors based on RISC-V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fantastic I will introduce them to the open ddr3 Engineer I found On Monday, November 13, 2017, Chinmay V S wrote: > Found out today about the SHAKTI processor. > An university project that aims to build 6 variants of processors based on > the RISC-V ISA > > Project Home Page: > http://rise.cse.iitm.ac.in/shakti.html > > Few (all?) code-drops: > https://bitbucket.org/casl/shakti_public > > HN discussion: > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15684225 > > regards > CVS > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From contact at paulk.fr Mon Nov 13 12:58:25 2017 From: contact at paulk.fr (Paul Kocialkowski) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 13:58:25 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] =?iso-8859-1?q?Re=A0=3A_FOSDEM_Hardware_Enablement_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Devroom?= In-Reply-To: <1510570651.1176.2.camel@paulk.fr> References: <1510570651.1176.2.camel@paulk.fr> Message-ID: <1510577905.5069.3.camel@paulk.fr> Hi, Le lundi 13 novembre 2017 à 11:57 +0100, Paul Kocialkowski a écrit : > A Hardware Enablement devroom will be taking place at FOSDEM this > year, on Sunday 10 December 2017. This newly-created devroom is the > result of 3 proposals that were merged together. It is co-organized by > several individuals. As it was pointed out on the Replicant mailing list, the devroom is actually taking place on the Sunday 4 February 2018, not on december 2018. > The devroom covers all aspects related to hardware enablement and > support with free software, including aspects related to boot > software, > firmwares, drivers and userspace tools and adaptation. > > Proposals for talks related to these topics are welcome and can be > submitted until Sunday 26 November 2017 via the pentabarf interface. > Short talks are encouraged over longer ones in order to cover a wide > range of topics. > > The announcement for the devroom, that contains all the useful > information, was published at: > https://lists.fosdem.org/pipermail/fosdem/2017-October/002649.html > > Cheers and see you at FOSDEM! Cheers, -- Paul Kocialkowski, developer of free digital technology and hardware support Website: https://www.paulk.fr/ Coding blog: https://code.paulk.fr/ Git repositories: https://git.paulk.fr/ https://git.code.paulk.fr/ From vkontogpls at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 21:10:32 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 23:10:32 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip Message-ID: Just noticed this: https://bitbucket.org/casl/shakti_public/ Probably worth keeping it in mind for the next couple years. From doark at mail.com Thu Nov 16 15:47:27 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:47:27 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Librem 5? In-Reply-To: References: <84998fb9-2a12-44f6-cbcf-9f5451f34b86@aross.me> <20170925114747.n5qyyqk5u27h44bm@lemon.cohens.org.il> <1506365397.2924.0@plebeian.isacdaavid.info> <6b3b332e-2792-feb0-fb2e-c56ee6994722@gmail.com> <20170926084110.b9e1e5a3de25072cbd470d5f@gmx.com> Message-ID: <20171116104319.076c508d@Davy_in_the_gravy> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 15:46:34 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Bill Kontos > wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > wrote: > > > >> they made it look like, because everything else was libre, there was > >> really absolutely no harm done by having the ME firmware, you really > >> had nothing to be concerned about, you could buy one of their > >> machines and have a totally secure system. > >> > > > > I don't recall that to be honest. > > yes. primarily it's by omission. > > > From what I understand they said the > > laptop would ship 100% libre from the beginning while they ended up > > shiping a traditional laptop with killswitches and the ability to run > > coreboot in the future, something that they achieved now. And they > > have a decent number of articles about their work on disabling the > > intel ME. > > their _requests to intel_ to disable the ME back-door co-processor... > specifically requested (or, well... if the NSA "asks" you can't > exactly say "No"... not if you want to stay in business...) that it be > added in the first place. > > which do you think intel will take seriously: the threats the NSA > made against them (along with the nice bribes).. or a company that > makes up 0.00001% of their global business sales? > > > I don't think it is and that switch was only a very recent > > discovery. > > yehyeh. > > > It's ironic, the moment intel moved the AMT to x86 everyone got into > > breaking it. And there is a scheduled talk on how to run unsigned code > > on any intel ME system for a conference in the next couple weeks. > > at laaaast. that's extremely good news. maybe i can do an intel > eoma68 card some day after all. > > l. BTW: Sorry this is so late, I've been catching up on my mail. A scheduled talk held where? Can I get a copy? Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Thu Nov 16 15:47:28 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:47:28 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] OT: Librem 5? In-Reply-To: References: <84998fb9-2a12-44f6-cbcf-9f5451f34b86@aross.me> <20170925114747.n5qyyqk5u27h44bm@lemon.cohens.org.il> <1506365397.2924.0@plebeian.isacdaavid.info> <6b3b332e-2792-feb0-fb2e-c56ee6994722@gmail.com> <20170926084110.b9e1e5a3de25072cbd470d5f@gmx.com> Message-ID: <20171116104227.2c47e7c0@Davy_in_the_gravy> On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 02:10:56 -0500 "J.B. Nicholson" wrote: > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > now, it *just so happens* that someone recently discovered that the > > NSA has clearly had their fingers into intel processors... because > > they requested a DISABLE function of the ME back-door co-processor. > > > without such a disable function there would be absolutely no way > > > that > > the NSA could authorise Intel processors for use either on their own > > premises or for any government usage.... because the exact same > > feature they demanded could be used to spy ON THEM. > > > fucking ironic. > > Quite; does this disable function fully and completely disable all > attempts at using any ME functionality such that nothing can re-enable > the ME, or is this disablement somehow impermanent or more limited in > some way? > > I ask because I vaguely recall that someone (Purism, perhaps?) had > remote ME accesses disabled but still allowed local accesses. This > struck me as nearly useless because such an arrangement would allow > running a program to relay ME requests and responses over a network > connection (an ME proxy, basically). > BTW: Sorry this is so late, I've been catching up on my mail. Do you have a reference for the NSA disabling the ME? Thanks, David From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Nov 19 03:44:19 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 03:44:19 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 9:10 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > Just noticed this: > > https://bitbucket.org/casl/shakti_public/ yeh the same team that was mentioned last week. suggestions on how to contact them appreciated. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Sun Nov 19 04:20:47 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 23:20:47 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A11069F.9020207@posteo.de> On 11/18/2017 10:44 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 9:10 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: >> Just noticed this: >> >> https://bitbucket.org/casl/shakti_public/ > yeh the same team that was mentioned last week. suggestions on how > to contact them appreciated. > > l. The first version of the shakti processor aka the extremely low voltage one, is of high interest to me. I am sure it is to Luke as well given this is his project. :) I hope that good things come from this. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From vkontogpls at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 10:52:35 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 12:52:35 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 5:44 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > yeh the same team that was mentioned last week. suggestions on how > to contact them appreciated. >From that link: IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN A EARLY ACCESS TO THE C-CLASS (64-BIT) PLEASE MAIL US AT: Madhusudan : gs dot madhusudan at cse dot iitm dot ac dot in Neel Gala : neelgala at gmail dot com C class 32 and 64 bit 3-8 stage in-order core aimed at 10 Mhz - 1 Ghz controller requiremenets Optional memory protection and MMU Very low power static design varinats Fault Tolerant variants for ISO26262 applications IoT variants will have compressed/reduced ISA support Optional FPU, VPU Bus - AHB variants To me it looks like the first one is too slow for general purpose computing, we would need the absolute maximum configuration to make something useful as a desktop chip. The I class is probably better suited. I class 64-bit, 1-8 core, 8+ stage out of order, aimed at 200 Mhz - 2 Ghz industrial control / general purpose applications Shared L2 cache, dual threading support, SIMD/VPU BUS - Shakti NoC + AXI4 This is the HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15684225 The lead architect of this project( username gsmadhusudan) has some more comments about it: Yes, we will update the C Class next month since our private line has a lot of foundry specific code that needs to be removed. The I class needs more work but the design is in place. It will also move to quad issue and would be a Cortex A72/75 class core. More importantly the basic slow IPs, UART, I2C, quad/Octal SPI, SDRAM controller, JTAG, DMA, PLIC will be FPGA and silicon proven and production quality. Will be very useful to other developers (non RISC-V also) as would the AXI bus. Cortex A72 is a pretty big core that just made it into a phone thermal budget with the first generation 16nm finfet process. One example is the kirin 950( found in the huawei Mate 8). From anandtech's review here are 2 links about power consumption: https://images.anandtech.com/doci/9878/power-big.png https://images.anandtech.com/doci/9878/CPUVolt.png Full review here( and please don't ask me about non-free js on the article): https://www.anandtech.com/show/9878/the-huawei-mate-8-review/3 Phones usually take around 3 watts tdp, so it looks like something of this class could fit on an eoma68 card. Obviously the "optional fpu-vpu" part remains a big question, while there also needs to be someone who think they can sell a few million of these so they get manufactured on a good enough node. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Nov 19 11:03:20 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 11:03:20 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 5:44 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > >> yeh the same team that was mentioned last week. suggestions on how >> to contact them appreciated. > > From that link: thx bill From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat Nov 11 16:26:01 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 11:26:01 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] sifive makes gnulinux running riscv cpu Message-ID: https://www.sifive.com/products/risc-v-core-ip/u54-mc/ What can we expect from this cpu? There is no gpu, you cannot get a board which has a display port? From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sun Nov 19 08:44:15 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 03:44:15 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 03:44:19 +0000 >suggestions on how > to contact them appreciated. Current Team Members: Rahul Bodduna (rahul.bodduna at gmail.com) Neel Gala (neelgala at gmail.com) Arjun Menon (c.arjunmenon at gmail.com) G Vinod (g.vinod1993 at gmail.com) Abhinaya Agrawal (agrawal.abhinaya at gmail.com) G S Madhusudan (gs.madhusudan at cse.iitm.ac.in, madhu at macaque.in) V. Kamakoti (kama at cse.iitm.ac.in, veezhi at gmail.com) For Queries/Collaboration/Feedback : shakti.iitm at gmail.com __________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Nov 20 16:43:15 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 16:43:15 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 8:44 AM, wrote: >>suggestions on how >> to contact them appreciated. > > For Queries/Collaboration/Feedback : > > shakti.iitm at gmail.com thx ron. i got in touch with them, have been talking for a day, set this up in order to keep track: http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/ - nothing official. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Mon Nov 20 23:12:35 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 18:12:35 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> > thx ron. i got in touch with them, have been talking for a day, set > this up in order to keep track: > http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/ - nothing official. > > l. I am surprised I thought you would want the c class? Do you think the m class will be lightweight enough for your purposes? > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Nov 21 03:38:31 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 03:38:31 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> References: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 11:12 PM, zap wrote: > I am surprised I thought you would want the c class? that's industrial. > Do you think the m class will be lightweight enough for your purposes? it's the "mobile" class. get this: in 28nm they're looking at 600mW power consumption for the m-class :) l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Nov 21 04:25:36 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 04:25:36 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] sifive makes gnulinux running riscv cpu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 4:26 PM, wrote: > https://www.sifive.com/products/risc-v-core-ip/u54-mc/ > > What can we expect from this cpu? > There is no gpu, you cannot get a board which has a display port? yeh bizarre, isn't it? they basically expect you to use its external bus to connect a (expensive) FPGA to, do the conversion to something-or-other, and to connect an HDMI interface or RGB/TTL interface etc. etc. yourself, implementing the display logic in a hybrid of software-plus-FPGA. or do connect a standard graphics card via PCIe. each of which is an awful lot of work / money. now, if *they* created a dev-kit which had that already *done*.... then... great! l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 09:47:38 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 11:47:38 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 5:38 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > it's the "mobile" class. get this: in 28nm they're looking at 600mW > power consumption for the m-class :) > 600mW sound like an aweful little for desktop use. I can't fathom javascript loading speeds in such a package. For reference my phone has a 3 watt chip( lg g3, snapdragon 801, 28nm) and I do notice some lag with webpages. Now granted the high rez screen (1440 x 2560) doesn't help but 600mW vs 3 W looks like a big drop. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Nov 21 09:58:08 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 09:58:08 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > 600mW sound like an aweful little for desktop use. I can't fathom > javascript loading speeds in such a package. For reference my phone > has a 3 watt chip( lg g3, snapdragon 801, 28nm) and I do notice some > lag with webpages. Now granted the high rez screen (1440 x 2560) > doesn't help but 600mW vs 3 W looks like a big drop. RISC-V is *significantly* less power-hungry, performance/watt. also, those 3 watts will include a Monster GPU, which will be being used for accelerated graphics. and, there will be *two* 32-bit data-wide DDR3 interfaces, not the one. that'll be 600mW minus the interfaces btw (including DDR3 driving and GPIO). l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 10:15:47 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 12:15:47 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > RISC-V is *significantly* less power-hungry, performance/watt. also, > those 3 watts will include a Monster GPU, which will be being used for > accelerated graphics. and, there will be *two* 32-bit data-wide DDR3 > interfaces, not the one. that'll be 600mW minus the interfaces btw > (including DDR3 driving and GPIO). The A72 which they quote as their target is consuming 700-900 watts per core, let alone the entire package. If they can drop power consumption that much( assuming a quad core ~75% less power consumption) then this is way more revolutionary than I thought. Does that cover all the specialized hardware and video accel too?. What's your definition of a monster gpu? Running 1080p at 60hz on a browser is a must imo and wether we like it or not wayland is the future so it will also need some sort of opengl compliant gpu just for futureproofing. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Nov 21 10:23:20 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 10:23:20 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > The A72 which they quote as their target is consuming 700-900 watts > per core, let alone the entire package. If they can drop power > consumption that much( assuming a quad core ~75% less power > consumption) then this is way more revolutionary than I thought. there's a paper comparing the two in 45nm, and yes RISC-V was around half the power. > Does that cover all the specialized hardware and video accel too?. no. > What's your definition of a monster gpu? MALI T650 or so (whatever it is). not MALI-400, that's "little monster" :) > Running 1080p at 60hz on a > browser is a must imo and wether we like it or not wayland is the > future so it will also need some sort of opengl compliant gpu just for > futureproofing. the initial plan is to use the main processor with some basic SIMD vector-processing instructions, which in quad-core would be more than adequate. bear in mind this is - preliminarily - to be around a USD $3 SoC with between 320 and 400 pins. l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 11:44:26 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 13:44:26 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 12:23 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > the initial plan is to use the main processor with some basic SIMD > vector-processing instructions, which in quad-core would be more than > adequate. > > bear in mind this is - preliminarily - to be around a USD $3 SoC with > between 320 and 400 pins. Alright that makes sense. Thanks for your time explaining it to me. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Nov 21 13:08:04 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 13:08:04 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 12:23 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > >> the initial plan is to use the main processor with some basic SIMD >> vector-processing instructions, which in quad-core would be more than >> adequate. >> >> bear in mind this is - preliminarily - to be around a USD $3 SoC with >> between 320 and 400 pins. > > > Alright that makes sense. Thanks for your time explaining it to me. wheww, no deliberate mistakes spotted... :) http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/ http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/pinouts/ http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/pinouts.py l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Nov 21 21:23:19 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 21:23:19 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> Message-ID: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f6d5/e754da444b7ede6e4eeaf0d61e8cbb82ade9.pdf https://arxiv.org/abs/1607.02318 so, the compression and something called macro-op fusion results in a significant reduction in code size that happens also to result in less cache usage and also faster execution time. how about that, huh? :) l. From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Tue Nov 21 03:22:27 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 22:22:27 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] sifive makes gnulinux running riscv cpu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171121032227.GA11470@topoi.pooq.com> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 04:25:36AM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 4:26 PM, wrote: > > https://www.sifive.com/products/risc-v-core-ip/u54-mc/ > > > > What can we expect from this cpu? > > There is no gpu, you cannot get a board which has a display port? > > yeh bizarre, isn't it? they basically expect you to use its external > bus to connect a (expensive) FPGA to, do the conversion to > something-or-other, and to connect an HDMI interface or RGB/TTL > interface etc. etc. yourself, implementing the display logic in a > hybrid of software-plus-FPGA. > > or do connect a standard graphics card via PCIe. > > each of which is an awful lot of work / money. > > now, if *they* created a dev-kit which had that already *done*.... > then... great! > > l. If they have ethernet you could connect from another computer that does have graphics using X. This doesn't make it *totally* useless. It could be used in a headless server, for example -- a place where you might need to avoid built-in spyware. -- hendrik From vkontogpls at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 00:09:12 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 02:09:12 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:23 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f6d5/e754da444b7ede6e4eeaf0d61e8cbb82ade9.pdf > > https://arxiv.org/abs/1607.02318 > > so, the compression and something called macro-op fusion results in a > significant reduction in code size that happens also to result in less > cache usage and also faster execution time. how about that, huh? :) > Yes that was the entire point of risc-v, to make a risc isa with what we learned from the mistakes of the past( there is a video going in depth on the risc-v youtube channel about instruction density that I can't seem to locate right now, but anyway removing the extra step x86-64 has makes perfect sense). Although from your second link the snapdragon 801 example that I gave before is supposed to be slightly denser or equal to the compressed version of risc v, so this alone doesn't seem to explain the difference. Anyway, if those are their targets we'll have to wait and see what they come up with. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Nov 22 02:32:32 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 02:32:32 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> Message-ID: could i ask people for some help, here? http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/pinouts/ http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/pinouts.py i'm looking for scenarios, to be added to the above, as "tests" of the SoC multiplexing pinouts. it's a mobile-class, 32-bit-wire DDR3/DDR3L/LPDDR3 RAM, 64-bit, 28nm, so probably... 2ghz or so, quad-core, and has the interfaces listed on http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/ i'm just about to cover the smartphone/tablet scenario, can anyone think of any other scenarios? would anyone like to submit a patch to the python code which includes the laptop scenario? or any other one? tia, l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Nov 22 05:13:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 05:13:07 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> Message-ID: http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/pinouts/ added the smartphone/tablet scenario, added DDR3, SYS and POWER pins.... total comes to 290! that's around 18x18 on a side, maybe 19x19 to make space for routing, which in a BGA form-factor @ 0.8mm pitch would be a 15x15mm package! 0.8mm deliberately because it's far, far easier to do a PCB with larger vias, and you can (i think) just about get a 4mil maybe even a 5mil trace in between 0.8mm BGA pads. cooool :) l. From ericbavier at centurylink.net Wed Nov 22 09:38:05 2017 From: ericbavier at centurylink.net (Eric Bavier) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 03:38:05 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Interested in pre-production unit for GNU Guix Message-ID: <20171122033805.2971f9b4@centurylink.net> Hello lkcl, (Resending to list, hopefully it makes it this time) We have a GNU Guix developer who is interested in working on bootloader and general software support in GuixSD for the EOMA68-A20. If there is still a pre-production unit available, please get in touch so we can work out how to get them set up. I've agreed to finance the hardware. Thanks, `~Eric Bavier From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Nov 22 15:37:02 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 15:37:02 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Interested in pre-production unit for GNU Guix In-Reply-To: <20171122033805.2971f9b4@centurylink.net> References: <20171122033805.2971f9b4@centurylink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 9:38 AM, Eric Bavier wrote: > Hello lkcl, hi eric > (Resending to list, hopefully it makes it this time) > > We have a GNU Guix developer who is interested in working on bootloader > and general software support in GuixSD for the EOMA68-A20. great! let's take a look... https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2016-07/msg00515.html ha! looks like someone's been working on porting GuixSD to ARM already. it shouuuld be an extremely straightforward task if you're prepared to stick with the known / tried-and-tested 3.4.104+ linux-sunxi kernel and the known tried-and-tested u-boot. > If there is still a pre-production unit available, yes there is. > please get in touch > so we can work out how to get them set up. I've agreed to finance the > hardware. superb. feel free to contact me off-list, with an address and telephone number i can put on the EMS TW Postal Service docket. l. From vincent.legoll at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 16:02:14 2017 From: vincent.legoll at gmail.com (Vincent Legoll) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 17:02:14 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Interested in pre-production unit for GNU Guix In-Reply-To: References: <20171122033805.2971f9b4@centurylink.net> Message-ID: Hello On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > stick with the known / tried-and-tested 3.4.104+ linux-sunxi kernel. You must be kidding, right ? -- Vincent Legoll From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Nov 22 16:10:16 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 16:10:16 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Interested in pre-production unit for GNU Guix In-Reply-To: References: <20171122033805.2971f9b4@centurylink.net> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Vincent Legoll wrote: > Hello > > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > >> stick with the known / tried-and-tested 3.4.104+ linux-sunxi kernel. > > You must be kidding, right ? nope, not at all. it's still the only available version of the linux kernel that has 100% proven, finished and *working* support for *all* functions of the Allwinner A20 processor. if you don't want or don't need HDMI, don't want video support, or a shed-load of other functionality, feel free to use mainline linux kernel source. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Nov 22 16:15:06 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 16:15:06 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Interested in pre-production unit for GNU Guix In-Reply-To: <87d14athxg.fsf@gmail.com> References: <20171122033805.2971f9b4@centurylink.net> <87d14athxg.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Mathieu Othacehe wrote: > > (+ Ludo and Danny) > > Hi Luke and Eric, > >> great! let's take a look... >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2016-07/msg00515.html >> ha! looks like someone's been working on porting GuixSD to ARM >> already. it shouuuld be an extremely straightforward task if you're > > Yes Danny has been involved in the GuixSD bootloader serie too. I guess > he would be interested in a pre-production unit too. i've only got around six or seven available of the 2.7.4 units, or thereabouts. i need to keep two, one as a backup in case one gets damaged (it happens). one way round that would be to use a VPN (i run one), set up the unit at one location and rsync packages over to it for testing in a chroot environment on the card. it'll... need a little coordination :) or, i could in theory set up one of the two i need to keep hold of here in TW and leave it switched on 24x7? > I'm currently working on porting GuixSD on a BBB and have almost > succeded to boot it. So porting EOMA68-A20 should only consist in picking > the right kernel/u-boot as you stated. yehyeh. the way i do different OSes is simply replace the root filesystem partition on pre-existing micro-sd cards. i'll make sure to include something (debian/testing armhf most likely - just don't do "apt-get update" on it as it will pull in a shed-load of stuff that's been done over the past... 2, 2.5 years) l. From tzafrir at cohens.org.il Wed Nov 22 16:16:19 2017 From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 17:16:19 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Interested in pre-production unit for GNU Guix In-Reply-To: References: <20171122033805.2971f9b4@centurylink.net> Message-ID: <20171122161618.3uovdjicwh37zx4s@lemon.cohens.org.il> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 04:10:16PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Vincent Legoll > wrote: > > Hello > > > > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > wrote: > > > >> stick with the known / tried-and-tested 3.4.104+ linux-sunxi kernel. > > > > You must be kidding, right ? > > nope, not at all. it's still the only available version of the linux > kernel that has 100% proven, finished and *working* support for *all* > functions of the Allwinner A20 processor. > > if you don't want or don't need HDMI, don't want video support, or a > shed-load of other functionality, feel free to use mainline linux > kernel source. Looking at http://linux-sunxi.org/Linux_mainlining_effort , I see that HDMI is listed as "in linux mainline since 4.15". Yey! LVDS is still listed as "WIP" and VGA and CVBS are still listed as red no-s, and VE (Video Engine) is listed as WIP. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's tzafrir at cohens.org.il | | best tzafrir at debian.org | | friend From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Nov 22 16:48:38 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 16:48:38 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Interested in pre-production unit for GNU Guix In-Reply-To: <20171122161618.3uovdjicwh37zx4s@lemon.cohens.org.il> References: <20171122033805.2971f9b4@centurylink.net> <20171122161618.3uovdjicwh37zx4s@lemon.cohens.org.il> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 04:10:16PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> --- >> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Vincent Legoll >> wrote: >> > Hello >> > >> > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> > wrote: >> > >> >> stick with the known / tried-and-tested 3.4.104+ linux-sunxi kernel. >> > >> > You must be kidding, right ? >> >> nope, not at all. it's still the only available version of the linux >> kernel that has 100% proven, finished and *working* support for *all* >> functions of the Allwinner A20 processor. >> >> if you don't want or don't need HDMI, don't want video support, or a >> shed-load of other functionality, feel free to use mainline linux >> kernel source. > > Looking at http://linux-sunxi.org/Linux_mainlining_effort , I see that > HDMI is listed as "in linux mainline since 4.15". Yey! progreeeess.... slow but getting there. > LVDS is still listed as "WIP" and VGA and CVBS are still listed as red > no-s, and VE (Video Engine) is listed as WIP. make sense now, vincent? l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 16:55:28 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 09:55:28 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? Message-ID: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> Working on the high-frequency taper, a couple things have been bothering me--the two ground vias circled in the attached picture. Are they either optional or moveable? If so, even moving them East or Northeast takes some pressure off the taper. If not, we'll work around them but it is a little more complicated. Richard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FullSizeRender.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 181410 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Nov 22 17:08:08 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 17:08:08 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > Working on the high-frequency taper, a couple things have been > bothering me--the two ground vias circled in the attached picture. > Are they either optional or moveable? they're not really optional, they're GNDing VIAs for a couple of capacitors on the TOP layer, associated with the PMIC area. i'll take a look, see what they're for: it *might* be possible to move them direclly south or south east, to the edge of the exclusion area. also i just noticed that TX1N/P has that little kink, it turns 45 degrees anti-clockwise (from the long horizontal straight) about 15mil late, and i really don't know why :) > If so, even moving them East or Northeast takes some pressure > off the taper. If not, we'll work around them but it is a little more complicated. less complicated is good.... l. From vincent.legoll at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 17:10:11 2017 From: vincent.legoll at gmail.com (Vincent Legoll) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 18:10:11 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Interested in pre-production unit for GNU Guix In-Reply-To: References: <20171122033805.2971f9b4@centurylink.net> <20171122161618.3uovdjicwh37zx4s@lemon.cohens.org.il> Message-ID: >> Looking at http://linux-sunxi.org/Linux_mainlining_effort , I see that >> HDMI is listed as "in linux mainline since 4.15". Yey! > > progreeeess.... slow but getting there. > >> LVDS is still listed as "WIP" and VGA and CVBS are still listed as red >> no-s, and VE (Video Engine) is listed as WIP. > > make sense now, vincent? I knew that very well, that's my homepage ;-) Waiting for HDMI / H3 also... But your advocating people to continue to work on ultra-obsolete versions (security-wise, etc) instead of pushing people to work on upstream is what I found kind of strange. But that's my personal opinion, and you're right to chose what's best for the eoma project. We may not have the same priorities. No harm intended Tchuss -- Vincent Legoll From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Nov 22 17:22:26 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 17:22:26 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Interested in pre-production unit for GNU Guix In-Reply-To: References: <20171122033805.2971f9b4@centurylink.net> <20171122161618.3uovdjicwh37zx4s@lemon.cohens.org.il> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Vincent Legoll wrote: > I knew that very well, that's my homepage ;-) > Waiting for HDMI / H3 also... > > But your advocating people to continue to work on ultra-obsolete versions > (security-wise, etc) instead of pushing people to work on upstream is what > I found kind of strange. well... they could focus on GuixSD... or they could focus on *not* doing GuixSD (at all, because half the stuff won't work) and instead do linux kernel development. if they'd said, "we're linux kernel developers, we'd like to focus on improving mainling Allwinner A20 functionality so that OSes like GuixSD have 100% full functionality for our users" i would have said, "great, here's the link to the mainline linux-sunxi page"... l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Nov 22 18:56:50 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 11:56:50 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 22, 2017, at 10:08, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > they're not really optional, they're GNDing VIAs for a couple of > capacitors on the TOP layer, associated with the PMIC area. i'll take > a look, see what they're for: it *might* be possible to move them > direclly south or south east, to the edge of the exclusion area. If they are grounding power capacitors, don't move them unless you can do so while maintaining (or better yet shrinking) the distance from capacitor pad to via. Low impedance power is precious! > also i just noticed that TX1N/P has that little kink, it turns 45 > degrees anti-clockwise (from the long horizontal straight) about 15mil > late, and i really don't know why :) It seems you decided to split up the extra width needed to accommodate the ground vias between TX0 and the clock lines across all the Northeast bends and then move TX1 and TX0 to avoid running into the ground vias. I see both TX1 and TX0 jogging back to 15mil inter-pair (between pair) spacing after they turn Northeast. Had we closely maintained that spacing in the corner, the bends in TX2 would have pointed through the bends in TX1, TX0, and TXC. Actually, the corner in the northern keep away for the ground fill would look through the corners in TX2, TX1, TX0, TXC, and the southern keep away for ground fill. > less complicated is good.... I agree. I try to avoid unneeded complication. Therefore it comes down to balancing priorities: the most important things generally represent "needed" complexity. Richard From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Nov 23 03:47:43 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 03:47:43 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > If they are grounding power capacitors, don't move them unless you > can do so while maintaining (or better yet shrinking) the distance > from capacitor pad to via. Low impedance power is precious! ok :) >> also i just noticed that TX1N/P has that little kink, it turns 45 >> degrees anti-clockwise (from the long horizontal straight) about 15mil >> late, and i really don't know why :) > > It seems you decided to split up the extra width needed to accommodate > the ground vias between TX0 and the clock lines across all the Northeast > bends and then move TX1 and TX0 to avoid running into the ground vias. something like that... yeah. i've been experimenting with x11 settings recently so haven't fired up PADS in a while (as X11 crashes terminate the QEMU VM with prejudice, which is bad). i remember that the priority was to get the layer-changing points to be running east-west, because in previous iterations having them run NE<->SW was a disaster. that in turn had knock-on effects back down the line.. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Nov 25 06:15:11 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 06:15:11 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> Message-ID: http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/news/eoma68-a20-275-layers126-illustration.jpg ok so this shows what's going on: already those GND vias have been moved significantly away from the pads associated with them (the ones for the 5V0) and those are MAJOR power (2A) so it's really rather important to have them close. now, what i _could_ do is turn the one connected to IPSOUT round by 90 degrees (anti-clockwise) and move it upwards, making use of the GND vias near the HX2P/N diff-pair vias. then there would be room to do the same thing with the 5V0 power in one as well. one thing: in speaking with mike from the factory, he's been tracking the price of capacitors now, which have showed a FIVE TIMES increase in price over the past six months. 0.1uF, 10uF and 100uF capacitors in particular, the prices have gone INSANE. the reason? f*****g apple's f*****g phones. the response: every supplier in shenzhen is HOARDING supplies and asking FIVE times the normal rate. this isn't going to calm down any time in the next 6 months: it's going to take apple finishing the insane glut of orders for their latest phone, plus a few months extra, before prices return to normal. so in the meantime what i think i will do is, put in double batches of *smaller* capacitors, with unusual values (three 33uF instead of one 100uF), which is, from what i've read, a better way to ensure stable power *anyway*. as in, two 4.7uF capacitors stabilise power much better than one 10uF capacitor because of the increased current capacity of two caps - something like that, anyway. bottom line: if i shuffle in two 0603 4.7uF caps as a replacement for the 0805 10uF, it reduces the cost on the BOM based on current pricing, improves power stability, and also means that those VIAs in the middle there can entirely be removed. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Nov 25 08:48:33 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:48:33 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 6:15 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > bottom line: if i shuffle in two 0603 4.7uF caps as a replacement for > the 0805 10uF, it reduces the cost on the BOM based on current > pricing, improves power stability, and also means that those VIAs in > the middle there can entirely be removed. ta-daaaaa :) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 120056 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rhkramer at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 13:47:26 2017 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:47:26 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201711250847.26610.rhkramer@gmail.com> On Saturday, November 25, 2017 01:15:11 AM Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > bottom line: if i shuffle in two 0603 4.7uF caps as a replacement for > the 0805 10uF, it reduces the cost on the BOM based on current > pricing, improves power stability, and also means that those VIAs in > the middle there can entirely be removed. Very nice! From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 15:05:09 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:05:09 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5964695B-5B76-4D8E-A176-6E158738CFC6@gmail.com> On Nov 24, 2017, at 23:15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: Thank you for the picture. > ok so this shows what's going on: already those GND vias have been > moved significantly away from the pads associated with them (the ones > for the 5V0) and those are MAJOR power (2A) so it's really rather > important to have them close. Agreed! > now, what i _could_ do is turn the one connected to IPSOUT round by > 90 degrees (anti-clockwise) and move it upwards, making use of the GND > vias near the HX2P/N diff-pair vias. then there would be room to do > the same thing with the 5V0 power in one as well. Sounds good. > one thing: in speaking with mike from the factory, he's been tracking > the price of capacitors now, which have showed a FIVE TIMES increase > in price over the past six months. 0.1uF, 10uF and 100uF capacitors > in particular, the prices have gone INSANE. [.…] Sorry about the demand fluctuation creating such huge price fluctuations. > so in the meantime what i think i will do is, put in double batches of > *smaller* capacitors, with unusual values (three 33uF instead of one > 100uF), which is, from what i've read, a better way to ensure stable > power *anyway*. > > as in, two 4.7uF capacitors stabilise power much better than one 10uF > capacitor because of the increased current capacity of two caps - > something like that, anyway. Great idea! You are correct in that the real capacitor which we can mount on a circuit board has an equivalent circuit which includes other components to the impedance besides just capacitance. Namely ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) and inductance. The parasitic resistance dominates low-frequency response while the parasitic inductance dominates high-frequency response. If you have the room, both of these can be combatted by doing just what you have described! > bottom line: if i shuffle in two 0603 4.7uF caps as a replacement for > the 0805 10uF, it reduces the cost on the BOM based on current > pricing, improves power stability, and also means that those VIAs in > the middle there can entirely be removed. Excellent solution to both problems! Id est, "Good show, mate!" From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 15:13:05 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:13:05 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Very nicely refactored capacitors! The only thing I am missing is the ground bypass vias close to the TX2 signal vias. I can't see them on the picture you included in the message, at least. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Nov 25 15:14:23 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 15:14:23 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: <5964695B-5B76-4D8E-A176-6E158738CFC6@gmail.com> References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> <5964695B-5B76-4D8E-A176-6E158738CFC6@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > On Nov 24, 2017, at 23:15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > Sorry about the demand fluctuation creating such huge price fluctuations. maaad. also the pricing on the DDR3 RAM IC is going nuts, but that's for different reasons: it's getting "old" so not so common any more. i'll need to test some 1866mhz DDR3 RAM ICs, but try them at the 350mhz speed that the layout copes with (safely, and with less power used), see how it goes. >> so in the meantime what i think i will do is, put in double batches of >> *smaller* capacitors, with unusual values (three 33uF instead of one >> 100uF), which is, from what i've read, a better way to ensure stable >> power *anyway*. >> >> as in, two 4.7uF capacitors stabilise power much better than one 10uF >> capacitor because of the increased current capacity of two caps - >> something like that, anyway. > > Great idea! You are correct in that the real capacitor which we can mount on a circuit board has an equivalent circuit which includes other components to the impedance besides just capacitance. Namely ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) and inductance. The parasitic resistance dominates low-frequency response while the parasitic inductance dominates high-frequency response. f you have the room, both of these can be combatted by doing just what you have described! :) From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Nov 25 15:16:06 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 15:16:06 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > Very nicely refactored capacitors! The only thing I am missing is the ground bypass vias close to the TX2 signal vias. I can't see them on the picture you included in the message, at least. argh! damnit, this is one of the things that pisses me off about PADS Layout: it occasionally decides, "oh that GND track you just deleted, it's no longer got any purpose... *let's delete it for you*" nggggggh. well spotted, i'll put it - some... - back. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Nov 25 15:12:12 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 15:12:12 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: <201711250847.26610.rhkramer@gmail.com> References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> <201711250847.26610.rhkramer@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 1:47 PM, wrote: > On Saturday, November 25, 2017 01:15:11 AM Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> bottom line: if i shuffle in two 0603 4.7uF caps as a replacement for >> the 0805 10uF, it reduces the cost on the BOM based on current >> pricing, improves power stability, and also means that those VIAs in >> the middle there can entirely be removed. > > Very nice! getting there :) i was able to take out the double-kink thing on both TX1 and TX0, also out the CK line flat with the 3 data pairs, but of course kinking to go round the TX0 layer-change vias. also i've just moved the keepout area in as well. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 145165 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Nov 25 15:21:56 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 15:21:56 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 3:16 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: >> Very nicely refactored capacitors! The only thing I am missing is the ground bypass vias close to the TX2 signal vias. I can't see them on the picture you included in the message, at least. > > argh! damnit, this is one of the things that pisses me off about > PADS Layout: it occasionally decides, "oh that GND track you just > deleted, it's no longer got any purpose... *let's delete it for you*" > nggggggh. > > well spotted, i'll put it - some... - back. grr, about 3 (at least) got deleted. squished them back in between the diffpairs. so, now those act as helpers for the diff-pairs _and_ also for the main IPSOUT power bus. that's 3 very close by the pair of capacitors, and 2 more within about... 30-40mil, one above, one below. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 122428 bytes Desc: not available URL: From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Sat Nov 25 16:02:35 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 09:02:35 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6AE0A57E-A095-4C74-8DB4-4279F88AC103@gmail.com> On Nov 25, 2017, at 08:21, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > grr, about 3 (at least) got deleted. squished them back in between > the diffpairs. > > so, now those act as helpers for the diff-pairs _and_ also for the > main IPSOUT power bus. that's 3 very close by the pair of capacitors, > and 2 more within about... 30-40mil, one above, one below. > Looks great! Now I have to drop out till tonight as I will be spending the day with family. Tonight or tomorrow I'll send a drawing for the taper. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Nov 25 16:04:18 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 16:04:18 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: <6AE0A57E-A095-4C74-8DB4-4279F88AC103@gmail.com> References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> <6AE0A57E-A095-4C74-8DB4-4279F88AC103@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > On Nov 25, 2017, at 08:21, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> grr, about 3 (at least) got deleted. squished them back in between >> the diffpairs. >> >> so, now those act as helpers for the diff-pairs _and_ also for the >> main IPSOUT power bus. that's 3 very close by the pair of capacitors, >> and 2 more within about... 30-40mil, one above, one below. >> > > Looks great! Now I have to drop out till tonight as I will be spending the day with family. always good... > Tonight or tomorrow I'll send a drawing for the taper. magic. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Nov 26 06:14:43 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 06:14:43 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> <6AE0A57E-A095-4C74-8DB4-4279F88AC103@gmail.com> Message-ID: ok so this is after flood-fill, remember that GND wires (blue) which are within tthe GND flood-fill (grey) *are* part of the GND plane, PADS just continues to highlight their existence (unnecessarily). so this gives a clear idea of how the current (arbitrarily-created) tapers look like. there are no tapers and no keepout areas on layer 1, because the clearance to... "stuff" is unavoidably within 5-7mil anyway. l. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 97579 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 80709 bytes Desc: not available URL: From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 17:37:15 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 10:37:15 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> <6AE0A57E-A095-4C74-8DB4-4279F88AC103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <94BCB55B-91F0-423C-BFA7-4F38C58C2F5A@gmail.com> On Nov 25, 2017, at 23:14, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > ok so this is after flood-fill, remember that GND wires (blue) which > are within tthe GND flood-fill (grey) *are* part of the GND plane, > PADS just continues to highlight their existence (unnecessarily). > > so this gives a clear idea of how the current (arbitrarily-created) > tapers look like. there are no tapers and no keepout areas on layer > 1, because the clearance to... "stuff" is unavoidably within 5-7mil > anyway. Thanks for the pictures. At the north side of the ESD it looks like something violates the board-level 5mil Cu-Cu clearance but I'm guessing it is actually stray silk screen that just happens to be rendered in the same shade of gray. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Nov 26 18:04:42 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:04:42 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations Vias Moveable? In-Reply-To: <94BCB55B-91F0-423C-BFA7-4F38C58C2F5A@gmail.com> References: <26D1B30A-6A8F-430C-B3E5-458AC30D633E@gmail.com> <6AE0A57E-A095-4C74-8DB4-4279F88AC103@gmail.com> <94BCB55B-91F0-423C-BFA7-4F38C58C2F5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > On Nov 25, 2017, at 23:14, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> >> ok so this is after flood-fill, remember that GND wires (blue) which >> are within tthe GND flood-fill (grey) *are* part of the GND plane, >> PADS just continues to highlight their existence (unnecessarily). >> >> so this gives a clear idea of how the current (arbitrarily-created) >> tapers look like. there are no tapers and no keepout areas on layer >> 1, because the clearance to... "stuff" is unavoidably within 5-7mil >> anyway. > > Thanks for the pictures. At the north side of the ESD it looks like something violates the board-level 5mil Cu-Cu clearance but I'm guessing it is actually stray silk screen that just happens to be rendered in the same shade of gray. yehyeh no idea why. layer 1 it's in white so is obviously silkscreen. one reason why i like looking at this stuff with gerbv after gerber generation, all the nonsense is gone. l. From adam at vany.ca Tue Nov 28 01:11:15 2017 From: adam at vany.ca (Adam Van Ymeren) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 20:11:15 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks Message-ID: Hey Luke, As I eagerly await the preproduction board, I figure it would be a good idea to touch base on what needs doing on the software side. I've started looking at http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/source_code/ for inspiration. But I'd like to know which tasks are a priority for you to deliver the current crowd supply pledges. Cheers! Hope the Shenzen was fun. -Adam From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Nov 28 11:53:01 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 11:53:01 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Adam Van Ymeren wrote: > Hey Luke, > > As I eagerly await the preproduction board, I figure it would be a good idea to touch base on what needs doing on the software side. hmmm well having someone confirm that the OSes run would be good (wih systemd removed as an absolute top priority, sole exception being fedora). next up would be working on a distribution mechanism for the images. my feeling is, setting up a bittorent network, a simple (SMALL) script/image that self-boots then grabs the image and drops it onto the target sd card. or... some instructions on how people can directly download then get the image onto a microsd card reason: the budget's simplly not large enough now ship out a thousand 4GB / 8GB microsd cards with the OS pre-installed on it. people are going to have to get their own (or use one they already have). > I've started looking at http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/source_code/ for inspiration. > > But I'd like to know which tasks are a priority for you to deliver the current crowd supply pledges. all hardware-related. l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 17:13:45 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 19:13:45 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 3:11 AM, Adam Van Ymeren wrote: > Hey Luke, > I've started looking at http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/source_code/ for inspiration. > > But I'd like to know which tasks are a priority for you to deliver the current crowd supply pledges. I think finding out what that bug that prevents us from using a modern version of linux is a high priority too. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Nov 28 19:03:50 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 19:03:50 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 5:13 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 3:11 AM, Adam Van Ymeren wrote: >> Hey Luke, > >> I've started looking at http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/source_code/ for inspiration. >> >> But I'd like to know which tasks are a priority for you to deliver the current crowd supply pledges. > > > I think finding out what that bug that prevents us from using a modern > version of linux is a high priority too. the list of peripherals and features supported is right there on the linux mainline sunxi page. when it's at 100% full and complete support for *all* hardware features (VPU, 2D engine etc. included), and the available libraries (libcedrus through libvdpau, xserver-xorg-fb-turbo and more) have *all* been updated to support that linux mainline kernel version, then and *only* then is it okay to *consider* abandoning the many months of (tested, proven) work done over the past few years and to *consider* releasing updated OSes to go on top of them. remember: with the sunxi 3.4.104 kernel *xserver fb turbo works*. libcedrus *works*. acceleration of video decoding and display *works* in firefox and chrome (although i didn't test the accelerated display bit because it requires OpenGL and i refuse to install the proprietary OpenGL MALI library). by converting over right now to the linux mainline kernel *all those accelerated functions are cut off*, plus even some critical peripherals are cut off, as well. l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 20:24:05 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 22:24:05 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > remember: with the sunxi 3.4.104 kernel *xserver fb turbo works*. > libcedrus *works*. acceleration of video decoding and display *works* > in firefox and chrome (although i didn't test the accelerated display > bit because it requires OpenGL and i refuse to install the proprietary > OpenGL MALI library). Maybe when you start a future crowdfunding campaign for another card it would be a good idea to look at what functionality is missing from mainline and factor in some extra costs around paying people to mainline these patches. From tzafrir at cohens.org.il Tue Nov 28 20:51:38 2017 From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 21:51:38 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171128205138.nunpjgohsta7nizu@lemon> On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 07:03:50PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > I think finding out what that bug that prevents us from using a modern > > version of linux is a high priority too. > > the list of peripherals and features supported is right there on the > linux mainline sunxi page. when it's at 100% full and complete > support for *all* hardware features (VPU, 2D engine etc. included), > and the available libraries (libcedrus through libvdpau, > xserver-xorg-fb-turbo and more) have *all* been updated to support > that linux mainline kernel version, then and *only* then is it okay to > *consider* abandoning the many months of (tested, proven) work done > over the past few years and to *consider* releasing updated OSes to go > on top of them. Originally the issue was that it has failed to boot. Issues with the boot loader. What about those? An issue with kernel >= 4.9 or so. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's tzafrir at cohens.org.il | | best tzafrir at debian.org | | friend From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Nov 29 08:07:09 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 08:07:09 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 8:24 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > Maybe when you start a future crowdfunding campaign for another card > it would be a good idea to look at what functionality is missing from > mainline and factor in some extra costs around paying people to > mainline these patches. i specifically picked the RK3288 because of exactly this. reading between the lines, google's financial muscle clearly had an impact on rockchip and got them to comply fully with the GPL *and* get everything up and running, all aspects of all hardware, as full libre sourced stacks. the only difficulty with the RK3288 is that there are *so many* muppets out there @begin whine i gotta gweat idea on how ter put erbuuntewww onna cwohmmebook here's my wuurpwess bhurlooorg gimme five an'a' facebhuuk liiiiiike @end whine that they're *completely* deluging *actual* expertise which allows you to get right down to the bedrock of the SoC. many of the wordpress-whiners for example *keep* the UEFI-based adaptation of u-boot that goes with chromebooks, so all their instructions are on (a) bypassing the restrictions built-in to that version of u-boot (b) discussing the UEFI partition format. those that aren't chroot environments only, at least. actually finding the linux kernel and u-boot source was a bitch: most of the searches direct you to *google's* releases / trees. *EVENTUALLY* i found the right experts on the #linux-rockchip forum who were able to direct me correctly to the appropriate (libre) tools and resources (a good percentage of them being on the t-firefly website), and was able to confirm that yes, you CAN get everything - including GPU (proprietary / MALI) and VPU (libre) libraries, and yes, it's completely mainlined, yes it's entiirely device-tree'd, yes it's full and complete support across the board 100% libre for the full and complete hardware. in short, bill, the A20 was selected as a low-cost option with a lot of community enthusiasm and willingness to reverse-engineer it, which has since died out because of allwinner repeatedly fucking about. i won't make that mistake again and yes have added much stricter criteria to processor selection (as you can see from the "Selecting a Processor" update on the crowdsupply page): ensuring that people *don't have to be be paid because everything's already available* is one of the criteria to consider. of course if it's risc-v, that's exciting and innovating and gets people interested and engaged, which completely over-rules the "everything has to be available already" criteria, because instead it's pioneering work and we are *empowered* to make everything available. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Nov 29 08:16:05 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 08:16:05 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: <20171128205138.nunpjgohsta7nizu@lemon> References: <20171128205138.nunpjgohsta7nizu@lemon> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 8:51 PM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > Originally the issue was that it has failed to boot. Issues with the > boot loader. What about those? An issue with kernel >= 4.9 or so. my understanding was, when i looked at this, was it's something to do with how old-uboot initialises the processor.... can't remember the details. a "fix" was added as a parameter that allowed old-u-boot to boot newer kernels, and new-u-boot to boot older kernels. however.... last year, when investigating, there was *another* issue, which is that somewhere around... i think it was 4.7rc1 ... it would systematically and totally unreliably come to a grinding halt at anywhere between 30 and 180 seconds into the boot. i think i maybe did a HUNDRED AND FIFTY separate kernel compiles (git bisect and other techniques), trying for several DAYS to narrow down which commit was responsible, but because of the unreliability of the crashing it was near-impossible to narrow down. the best / closest i could get was something like, "4.7rc1 is fine, 4.7rc5 isn't". since then whatever underlying bug is there MIGHT have been tracked down and fixed, as there were people who were vaaaguely aware of the problem, on other hardware. l. From pablo at parobalth.org Wed Nov 29 08:46:41 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo Rath) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:46:41 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: References: <20171128205138.nunpjgohsta7nizu@lemon> Message-ID: <20171129084640.ltprtfrtzrbtc5mc@cherry> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 08:16:05AM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 8:51 PM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > > > Originally the issue was that it has failed to boot. Issues with the > > boot loader. What about those? An issue with kernel >= 4.9 or so. > > my understanding was, when i looked at this, was it's something to do > with how old-uboot initialises the processor.... can't remember the > details. a "fix" was added as a parameter that allowed old-u-boot to > boot newer kernels, and new-u-boot to boot older kernels. > > however.... last year, when investigating, there was *another* issue, > which is that somewhere around... i think it was 4.7rc1 ... it would > systematically and totally unreliably come to a grinding halt at > anywhere between 30 and 180 seconds into the boot. > > i think i maybe did a HUNDRED AND FIFTY separate kernel compiles (git > bisect and other techniques), trying for several DAYS to narrow down > which commit was responsible, but because of the unreliability of the > crashing it was near-impossible to narrow down. the best / closest i > could get was something like, "4.7rc1 is fine, 4.7rc5 isn't". > > since then whatever underlying bug is there MIGHT have been tracked > down and fixed, as there were people who were vaaaguely aware of the > problem, on other hardware. Now I am confused. In this reply (http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2017-May/013653.html) you have told me the reason for the kernel bug is/was a power instability. So I thought this is going to be fixed and said kernel bug is no more. Are there multiple kernel bugs? kind regards Pablo From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Nov 29 09:21:39 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:21:39 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: <20171129084640.ltprtfrtzrbtc5mc@cherry> References: <20171128205138.nunpjgohsta7nizu@lemon> <20171129084640.ltprtfrtzrbtc5mc@cherry> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Pablo Rath wrote: > Now I am confused. In this reply > (http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2017-May/013653.html) > you have told me the reason for the kernel bug is/was a power > instability. So I thought this is going to be fixed and said kernel bug > is no more. i solved that by simply cutting off NAND entirely and re-routing the pins on SD/MMC so that MMC0 is now the user-facing SD slot and MMC2 is the EOMA68 SD/MMC interface. both are eGON BOOTROM interfaces. previously i was forced to route MMC3 to the user-facing SD slot and MMC0 to the EOMA68 interface. MMC3 is *not* bootable from the A20 eGON BOOTROM. i think that's what it was. it's been too long to recall exact details. l. From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Thu Nov 30 02:00:37 2017 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 21:00:37 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks References: Message-ID: > As I eagerly await the preproduction board, I figure it would be a good idea > to touch base on what needs doing on the software side. IIUC now that DRM support for the A20 is in mainline (well, not quite there yet, but it's in linux-next), the next thing is video decoding, I think. There's currently work going on for that up at https://github.com/free-electrons/linux-cedrus, so help would be welcome there. Stefan "who doesn't know if the proprietary binary-blob MALI driver currently works with mainline Linux" From valhalla-l at trueelena.org Thu Nov 30 09:31:57 2017 From: valhalla-l at trueelena.org (Elena ``of Valhalla'') Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:31:57 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171130093157.ex4t67h6oluzzsca@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> On 2017-11-29 at 21:00:37 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > Stefan "who doesn't know if the proprietary binary-blob MALI > driver currently works with mainline Linux" There was a talk on that blob at the debian minidebconf cambridge last weekend (video available) https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEvents/gb/2017/MiniDebConfCambridge/Sliepen and informations are being kept updated on the debian wiki: https://wiki.debian.org/MaliGraphics (and related pages) but there doesn't seem to be much work done for allwinner SoCs, at the moment. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Thu Nov 30 13:14:09 2017 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:14:09 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks References: <20171130093157.ex4t67h6oluzzsca@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> Message-ID: > and informations are being kept updated on the debian wiki: > https://wiki.debian.org/MaliGraphics (and related pages) > but there doesn't seem to be much work done for allwinner SoCs, at the > moment. According to that web-page, there shouldn't need to be anything Allwinner-specific anyway, right (other than adding the GPU nodes to the relevant DTS)? Stefan From valhalla-l at trueelena.org Thu Nov 30 13:37:35 2017 From: valhalla-l at trueelena.org (Elena ``of Valhalla'') Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 14:37:35 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: References: <20171130093157.ex4t67h6oluzzsca@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> Message-ID: <20171130133735.wjk7dobdkv3lneg6@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> On 2017-11-30 at 08:14:09 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > and informations are being kept updated on the debian wiki: > > https://wiki.debian.org/MaliGraphics (and related pages) > > but there doesn't seem to be much work done for allwinner SoCs, at the > > moment. > > According to that web-page, there shouldn't need to be anything > Allwinner-specific anyway, right (other than adding the GPU nodes to > the relevant DTS)? The talk in the video explained that right now packages have to be SoC-specific (and there may even be some allwinner-specific code that is required, but not necessarily available). I don't remember all the details, however, and the talk explains them better than I could (sorry for the lack of text-based references). -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Nov 30 14:25:58 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 14:25:58 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: <20171130133735.wjk7dobdkv3lneg6@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> References: <20171130093157.ex4t67h6oluzzsca@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> <20171130133735.wjk7dobdkv3lneg6@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:37 PM, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote: > On 2017-11-30 at 08:14:09 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> > and informations are being kept updated on the debian wiki: >> > https://wiki.debian.org/MaliGraphics (and related pages) >> > but there doesn't seem to be much work done for allwinner SoCs, at the >> > moment. >> >> According to that web-page, there shouldn't need to be anything >> Allwinner-specific anyway, right (other than adding the GPU nodes to >> the relevant DTS)? > > The talk in the video explained that right now packages have to be > SoC-specific (and there may even be some allwinner-specific code that is > required, but not necessarily available). > > I don't remember all the details, however, and the talk explains them > better than I could (sorry for the lack of text-based references). no problem elena - i tracked it down: http://linux-sunxi.org/Mali400#Binary_driver two variants / sets of instructions: http://linux-sunxi.org/Mali_binary_driver http://free-electrons.com/blog/mali-opengl-support-on-allwinner-platforms-with-mainline-linux/ those are proprietary drivers so they will most definitely *NOT* be going onto the RYF-Certified EOMA68-A20 Cards. btw that reminds me, does anyone know the progress of the guy working for AMD who in his spare time is implementing MALI400 OpenGL compatible entirely libre drivers? he's *referencing* libv's work but is reimplementing the library from scratch. he... maay run into difficulties as MALI400 is so basic it requires significant parts to be done in software (CPU-side). l. From list at imkreisrum.de Thu Nov 30 14:59:53 2017 From: list at imkreisrum.de (Andreas Baierl) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 15:59:53 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: References: <20171130093157.ex4t67h6oluzzsca@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> <20171130133735.wjk7dobdkv3lneg6@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> Message-ID: <10854d1e-dedd-cce8-a8bc-8b26dbe1e3ea@imkreisrum.de> Am 30.11.2017 um 15:25 schrieb Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:37 PM, Elena ``of Valhalla'' > wrote: >> On 2017-11-30 at 08:14:09 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: >>>> and informations are being kept updated on the debian wiki: >>>> https://wiki.debian.org/MaliGraphics (and related pages) >>>> but there doesn't seem to be much work done for allwinner SoCs, at the >>>> moment. >>> According to that web-page, there shouldn't need to be anything >>> Allwinner-specific anyway, right (other than adding the GPU nodes to >>> the relevant DTS)? >> The talk in the video explained that right now packages have to be >> SoC-specific (and there may even be some allwinner-specific code that is >> required, but not necessarily available). >> >> I don't remember all the details, however, and the talk explains them >> better than I could (sorry for the lack of text-based references). > no problem elena - i tracked it down: > http://linux-sunxi.org/Mali400#Binary_driver > > two variants / sets of instructions: > > http://linux-sunxi.org/Mali_binary_driver > http://free-electrons.com/blog/mali-opengl-support-on-allwinner-platforms-with-mainline-linux/ > > those are proprietary drivers so they will most definitely *NOT* be > going onto the RYF-Certified EOMA68-A20 Cards. btw that reminds me, > does anyone know the progress of the guy working for AMD who in his > spare time is implementing MALI400 OpenGL compatible entirely libre > drivers? he's *referencing* libv's work but is reimplementing the > library from scratch. he... maay run into difficulties as MALI400 is > so basic it requires significant parts to be done in software > (CPU-side). Mesa kmscube demo is running, though some/many components are still missing to call it complete. He announced the status of his project just recently: https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/opengl-vulkan-mesa-gallium3d/991441-there-s-an-arm-mali-gallium3d-driver-still-being-developed?p=991690#post991690 The repository to follow is hosted here: https://github.com/yuq/mesa-lima Regards Andreas > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Nov 30 18:18:48 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 18:18:48 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Top Priority Software Tasks In-Reply-To: <10854d1e-dedd-cce8-a8bc-8b26dbe1e3ea@imkreisrum.de> References: <20171130093157.ex4t67h6oluzzsca@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> <20171130133735.wjk7dobdkv3lneg6@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> <10854d1e-dedd-cce8-a8bc-8b26dbe1e3ea@imkreisrum.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Andreas Baierl wrote: > He announced the status of his project just recently: > https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/opengl-vulkan-mesa-gallium3d/991441-there-s-an-arm-mali-gallium3d-driver-still-being-developed?p=991690#post991690 faaan-f****g-tastic! > The repository to follow is hosted here: https://github.com/yuq/mesa-lima haaaa that's what i was looking for. ha that would be f*****g amazing to have, it's the last piece that would make the A20 fully libre. thank you andreas. l.