From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 1 04:47:12 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 04:47:12 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Solid wood corner prototype In-Reply-To: <494b49df-0d68-bc1e-fd9d-2a936be8f651@FineArtMarquetry.com> References: <456b959e-5d14-de22-e5b5-80df757b63a8@FineArtMarquetry.com> <74b9adb9-cec5-cf3b-e22c-e85029a86aaf@FineArtMarquetry.com> <494b49df-0d68-bc1e-fd9d-2a936be8f651@FineArtMarquetry.com> Message-ID: i was just thinking, if you had the appropriate cutters (like a router / plane with different width bits) it would be possible to just run the parts through some sort of jig. l. From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Mon May 1 05:36:05 2017 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 18:36:05 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Solid wood corner prototype In-Reply-To: References: <456b959e-5d14-de22-e5b5-80df757b63a8@FineArtMarquetry.com> <74b9adb9-cec5-cf3b-e22c-e85029a86aaf@FineArtMarquetry.com> <494b49df-0d68-bc1e-fd9d-2a936be8f651@FineArtMarquetry.com> Message-ID: <3cc50220-fbd8-2634-6247-390fb5bf4d12@FineArtMarquetry.com> On 30/04/17 17:47, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > i was just thinking, if you had the appropriate cutters (like a router > / plane with different width bits) it would be possible to just run > the parts through some sort of jig. This is definitely possible. With the corner design on my screen (apparently the blue ones in the photos), all the different levels and widths of cutout make it something I'd not want to think about doing that way. Still, it looks like it could be simplified a bit. You seem to have the PCB slot both top and bottom, which is nice for interchangeability, but could be dispensed with. I'm thinking about other possibilities, but I can't yet visualise fully what the tolerances are relative to the populated PCB. I know revisions of the PCB are generally hard (at least if they involve rerouting traces), but I have to ask what the implications of adding a sixteenth to each side edge of the PCB for mounting would be. The length front to back would remain the same. If that could be done and would allow the full rectangle of the corner piece to be used, then there are only two operations that would need to be done on the individual corner piece, namely the stopped dado for the PCB (only one per corner, two different corners) and the hole for assembly bolt. Tor > > l. -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ 808-828-1107 GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 1 15:05:46 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 15:05:46 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] lian dong san wei 3d printer Message-ID: http://rhombus-tech.net/3d_printers/lian_dong_san_wei/ starting some build instructions and also noting which parts are missing, what improvements can be made. so far i have the entire frame done and it's reaasonably stable but not as rigid as i was expecting: that's going to be down to the use of "interior" L-shaped brackets that go *inside* the 20x20 runners, as opposed to the use of triangular corner-braces which i know would make the entire thing as stiff as a... stiff thing. i've only made one assembly mistake, which is on the x-axis: the hot-end holder with the linear bearings in it is upside-down, which results in the belt being subtly shifted upwards by about 4mm.. out of true. that means that the belt is pointing at weird angles, being slackest when the print head is in the centre and under high tension *and a different length* at the edges. arse. it means a full disassembly of the z-axes *and* the x-asis sub-assemblies, and recalibration. arse. also... *sigh*... there are certain design decisions made by chris palmer (creator of the mendel90) which, when you look at other reprap-style 3d printers you just... smack your head in dismay. josef prusa, who is unfortunately worshipped for being one of the first to actually sell 3d printers, is not someone who can be said to actually be capable of sound engineering judgement, and this printer is unfortunately "inspired" by his efforts... and therefore has *vertical* x-axis rods (supporting the print-head). what that means is that the weight of the print-head *twists* the rods. i'm holding the end of the nozzle and moving it _gently_ around... and it's wobbling by about TWO millimetres. soo.... yeah. this is undergoing a redesign before committing to 10 more. also i can take the opportunity to reduce the "lever" effect (the printhead being a long way away from the middle point of the 2 x-axis rods). l. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From zapper at openmailbox.org Tue May 2 22:50:28 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 17:50:28 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good Message-ID: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> I assume that's going to be the third series of libre cards right? you making a lowrisc based processor and graphics, etc, I am sure you can succeed. I look forward to still getting the second revision still though. :) From penyuanhsing at gmail.com Wed May 3 02:05:13 2017 From: penyuanhsing at gmail.com (Pen-Yuan Hsing) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 02:05:13 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: <8B4D9D3A-DA17-4461-ABCD-281DAF461053@gmail.com> References: <8B4D9D3A-DA17-4461-ABCD-281DAF461053@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54751fde-f9c2-93ae-b108-e1fc16ef8694@gmail.com> I'm really really excited about a possible 100% libre RISC-V based computer. Though I'm a backer of the most recent campaign (and can't wait to get it! :)), I lack the knowledge/skills to actually help with the technical development of this upcoming RISC card. Is there anything I/we can do to help get this RISC initiative going? On 2017-04-28 08:36, Allan Mwenda wrote: > Yes. Do it. DO IT. > > On 27 April 2017 14:21:08 GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > ok so it would seem that the huge amount of work going into RISC-V > means that it's on track to becoming a steamroller that will squash > proprietary SoCs, so i'm quite happy to make sure that it's > not-so-subtly nudged in the right direction. > > i've started a page where i am keeping notes: > http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/libre_riscv/ and the general goal is to > create a desirable mass-volume low-cost SoC, meaning that it will need > to at least do 1080p60 video decode and have 3D graphics capability. > oh... and be entirely libre. > > the plan is: > > * to create an absolute basic SoC, starting from lowRISC (64-bit), > ORGFX (3D graphics) and MIAOW (OpenCL engine), in at least 90nm as a > low-cost proof-of-concept where mistakes can be iterated through > * provide the end-result to software developers so that they can have > actual real silicon to work with > * begin a first crowd-funding phase to create a 28nm (or better) > multi-core SMP SoC > > for this first phase the interfaces that i've tracked down so far are > almost entirely fromopencores.org , meaning that there really should > be absolutely no need to license any costly hard macros. that > *includes* a DDR3 controller (but does not include a DDR3 PHY, which > will need to be designed): > > * DDR3 controller (not including PHY) > * lowRISC contains "minion cores" so can be soft-programmed to do any GPIO > * boot and debug through ZipCPU's UART (use an existing EC's on-board FLASH) > * OpenCores VGA controller (actually it's an LCD RGB/TTL controller) > * OpenCores ULPI USB 2.0 controller > * OpenCores USB-OTG 1.1 PHY > > note that there are NO ANALOG INTERFACES in that. this is *really* > important to avoid, because mixed analog and digital is incredibly > hard to get right. also note that things like HDMI, SATA, and even > ethernet are quite deliberately NOT on the list. Ethernet RMII (which > is digital) could be implemented in software using a minion core. the > advantage of using the opencores VGA (actually LCD) controller is: i > already have the full source for a *complete* linux driver. > > I2C, SPI, SD/MMC, UART, EINT and GPIO - all of these can be > software-programmed as bit-banging in the minion cores. > > these interfaces, amazingly, are enough to do an SoC that, if put into > 40nm, would easily compete with some of TI's offerings, as well as the > Allwinner R8 (aka A13). > > i've also managed to get alliance and coriolis2 compiled on > debian/testing (took a while) so it *might* not be necessary even to > pay for the ASIC design tooling (the cost of which is insane). > coriolis2 includes a reasonable auto-router. i still have yet to go > through the tutorials to see how it works. for design rules: 90nm > design rules (stacks etc.) are actually publicly available, which > would potentially mean that a clock rate of at least 300mhz would be > achievable: interestingly 800mhz DDR3 RAM from 2012 used 90nm > geometry. 65 down to 40nm would be much more preferable but may be > hard to get. > > graphics: i'm going through the list of people who have done GPUs (or > parts of one). MIAOW, Nyuzi, ORGFX. the gplgpu isn't gpl. it's been > modified to "the text of the GPL license plus an additional clause > which is that if you want to use this for commercial purposes then... > you can't". which is *NOT* a GPL license, it's a proprietary > commercial license! > > MIAOW is just an OpenCL engine but a stonking good one that's > compatible with AMD's software. nyuzi is an experimental GPU where i > hope its developer believes in its potential. ORGFX i am currently > evaluating but it looks pretty damn good, and i think it is slightly > underestimated. i could really use some help evaluating it properly. > my feeling is that a combination of MIAOW to handle shading and ORGFX > for the rendering would be a really powerful combination. > > so. > > it's basically doable. comments and ideas welcome, please do edit the > page to keep track of noteshttp://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/libre_riscv/ From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed May 3 02:52:38 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 21:52:38 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: <54751fde-f9c2-93ae-b108-e1fc16ef8694@gmail.com> References: <8B4D9D3A-DA17-4461-ABCD-281DAF461053@gmail.com> <54751fde-f9c2-93ae-b108-e1fc16ef8694@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/2/17, Pen-Yuan Hsing wrote: > I'm really really excited about a possible 100% libre RISC-V based computer. > Though I'm a backer of the most recent campaign (and can't wait to get it! > :)), I lack the knowledge/skills to actually help with the technical > development of this upcoming RISC card. > Is there anything I/we can do to help get this RISC initiative going? > > On 2017-04-28 08:36, Allan Mwenda wrote: >> Yes. Do it. DO IT. >> >> On 27 April 2017 14:21:08 GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> wrote: >> >> ok so it would seem that the huge amount of work going into RISC-V >> means that it's on track to becoming a steamroller that will squash >> proprietary SoCs, so i'm quite happy to make sure that it's >> not-so-subtly nudged in the right direction. >> >> i've started a page where i am keeping notes: >> http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/libre_riscv/ and the general goal is to >> create a desirable mass-volume low-cost SoC, meaning that it will need >> to at least do 1080p60 video decode and have 3D graphics capability. >> oh... and be entirely libre. >> >> the plan is: >> >> * to create an absolute basic SoC, starting from lowRISC (64-bit), >> ORGFX (3D graphics) and MIAOW (OpenCL engine), in at least 90nm as a >> low-cost proof-of-concept where mistakes can be iterated through >> * provide the end-result to software developers so that they can have >> actual real silicon to work with >> * begin a first crowd-funding phase to create a 28nm (or better) >> multi-core SMP SoC >> >> for this first phase the interfaces that i've tracked down so far are >> almost entirely fromopencores.org , meaning that >> there really should >> be absolutely no need to license any costly hard macros. that >> *includes* a DDR3 controller (but does not include a DDR3 PHY, which >> will need to be designed): >> >> * DDR3 controller (not including PHY) >> * lowRISC contains "minion cores" so can be soft-programmed to do any >> GPIO >> * boot and debug through ZipCPU's UART (use an existing EC's on-board >> FLASH) >> * OpenCores VGA controller (actually it's an LCD RGB/TTL controller) >> * OpenCores ULPI USB 2.0 controller >> * OpenCores USB-OTG 1.1 PHY >> >> note that there are NO ANALOG INTERFACES in that. this is *really* >> important to avoid, because mixed analog and digital is incredibly >> hard to get right. also note that things like HDMI, SATA, and even >> ethernet are quite deliberately NOT on the list. Ethernet RMII (which >> is digital) could be implemented in software using a minion core. the >> advantage of using the opencores VGA (actually LCD) controller is: i >> already have the full source for a *complete* linux driver. >> >> I2C, SPI, SD/MMC, UART, EINT and GPIO - all of these can be >> software-programmed as bit-banging in the minion cores. >> >> these interfaces, amazingly, are enough to do an SoC that, if put into >> 40nm, would easily compete with some of TI's offerings, as well as the >> Allwinner R8 (aka A13). >> >> i've also managed to get alliance and coriolis2 compiled on >> debian/testing (took a while) so it *might* not be necessary even to >> pay for the ASIC design tooling (the cost of which is insane). >> coriolis2 includes a reasonable auto-router. i still have yet to go >> through the tutorials to see how it works. for design rules: 90nm >> design rules (stacks etc.) are actually publicly available, which >> would potentially mean that a clock rate of at least 300mhz would be >> achievable: interestingly 800mhz DDR3 RAM from 2012 used 90nm >> geometry. 65 down to 40nm would be much more preferable but may be >> hard to get. >> >> graphics: i'm going through the list of people who have done GPUs (or >> parts of one). MIAOW, Nyuzi, ORGFX. the gplgpu isn't gpl. it's been >> modified to "the text of the GPL license plus an additional clause >> which is that if you want to use this for commercial purposes then... >> you can't". which is *NOT* a GPL license, it's a proprietary >> commercial license! >> >> MIAOW is just an OpenCL engine but a stonking good one that's >> compatible with AMD's software. nyuzi is an experimental GPU where i >> hope its developer believes in its potential. ORGFX i am currently >> evaluating but it looks pretty damn good, and i think it is slightly >> underestimated. i could really use some help evaluating it properly. >> my feeling is that a combination of MIAOW to handle shading and ORGFX >> for the rendering would be a really powerful combination. >> >> so. >> >> it's basically doable. comments and ideas welcome, please do edit the >> page to keep track of noteshttp://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/libre_riscv/ > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk Print off some of the RISC-V technical documentation, write in the link "http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2017-April/013457.html" and leave the copies in cafes, coffee shops, computer labs, etc. Only leave one copy per place. Some one will get curious I'm sure, and the rest is up to them. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 3 06:00:38 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 06:00:38 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: <54751fde-f9c2-93ae-b108-e1fc16ef8694@gmail.com> References: <8B4D9D3A-DA17-4461-ABCD-281DAF461053@gmail.com> <54751fde-f9c2-93ae-b108-e1fc16ef8694@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 2:05 AM, Pen-Yuan Hsing wrote: > I'm really really excited about a possible 100% libre RISC-V based computer. > Though I'm a backer of the most recent campaign (and can't wait to get it! > :)), I lack the knowledge/skills to actually help with the technical > development of this upcoming RISC card. > Is there anything I/we can do to help get this RISC initiative going? just spread the word (particularly when the new campaign comes up) - also if you know of any business people willing to invest, meet any investors particularly those with an ethical or social focus, do put them in touch. also: universities. if you happen to know any university professors ask their Electrical Engineering Dept to consider research into RISC-V. it'll sort-of happen anyway (happening already) because it's easy to get hold of the RISC-V design. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 3 06:01:39 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 06:01:39 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> References: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:50 PM, zap wrote: > I assume that's going to be the third series of libre cards right? you > making a lowrisc based processor and graphics, etc, more likely the fourth or fifth. all these things happen in parallel. the one after the RK3288 to investigate is the RK3399 (6-core). also i've heard that the iMX7 is out so am having a look at that. > I am sure you can succeed. I look forward to still getting the second > revision still though. :) :) From vkontogpls at gmail.com Wed May 3 08:56:42 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 10:56:42 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: References: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: http://rockchip.wikidot.com/rk3399 According to this the rk3399 has support on everything. Does that mean that it does not have any gpl violations or blobs required ? On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:50 PM, zap wrote: > > I assume that's going to be the third series of libre cards right? you > > making a lowrisc based processor and graphics, etc, > > more likely the fourth or fifth. all these things happen in > parallel. the one after the RK3288 to investigate is the RK3399 > (6-core). also i've heard that the iMX7 is out so am having a look at > that. > > > I am sure you can succeed. I look forward to still getting the second > > revision still though. :) > > :) > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 3 09:06:35 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 09:06:35 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: References: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 8:56 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > http://rockchip.wikidot.com/rk3399 > > According to this the rk3399 has support on everything. Does that mean that > it does not have any gpl violations or blobs required ? as best i can make out that would be a correct assessment. what i am missing is a reference design. it would be a total waste of my time and highly irresponsible to try to start from scratch, so i'll wait until a design "percolates out" onto taobao :) l. From zapper at openmailbox.org Wed May 3 11:28:01 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 06:28:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: References: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On 05/03/2017 01:01 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:50 PM, zap wrote: >> I assume that's going to be the third series of libre cards right? you >> making a lowrisc based processor and graphics, etc, > more likely the fourth or fifth. all these things happen in > parallel. the one after the RK3288 to investigate is the RK3399 > (6-core). also i've heard that the iMX7 is out so am having a look at > that. RK3399... 11.0 ghz speed if you count all the four cores which are 2 ghz each and 1.5 for the other ones... wow... I wonder how much watts that processor uses... that is crazy fast. I mean really... 4GB ram too I see as the norm. which is good. on a different note though, perchance will the fourth or fifth series of libre cards support 8gb of ram or more? I bet you could even get it to 16gb if you wanted... though that wouldn't be needed. heh. > >> I am sure you can succeed. I look forward to still getting the second >> revision still though. :) > :) I am impressed by your findings keep it up pal... hehe. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 3 11:38:26 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 11:38:26 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: References: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 11:28 AM, zap wrote: > > > On 05/03/2017 01:01 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> --- >> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >> >> >> On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:50 PM, zap wrote: >>> I assume that's going to be the third series of libre cards right? you >>> making a lowrisc based processor and graphics, etc, >> more likely the fourth or fifth. all these things happen in >> parallel. the one after the RK3288 to investigate is the RK3399 >> (6-core). also i've heard that the iMX7 is out so am having a look at >> that. > > RK3399... 11.0 ghz speed if you count all the four cores which are 2 ghz each and 1.5 for the other ones... > > wow... > > I wonder how much watts that processor uses... > > that is crazy fast. I mean really... 4GB ram too I see as the norm. which is good. > > on a different note though, perchance will the fourth or fifth series of libre cards support 8gb of ram or more? > > I bet you could even get it to 16gb if you wanted... though that wouldn't be needed. heh. the cost of the RAM ICs to do that are insane. the 1GB DDR3x16 ICs are already $10 **EACH**. normally a DIMM would have 8 or 16 RAM ICs, meaning that for a 4GB DIMM you need 8x 512mb ICs, or you could do 8GB by using 16 of them. normally you get 2 (matched) DIMMS totalling 8GB. if you want *32* GB you get 2 matched DIMMs, but nobody in "mass-production" is shipping windows PCs or laptops with 32GB of RAM (and if they are it's DDR4) additionally, it would need either 2 pairs of x32 DDR RAM controllers, or it would be necessary to do a cascade layout: a daisy-chain of RAM ICs.... and i'm not sure it would be possible to fit 8 RAM ICs onto the 43x78mm PCB anyway. bottom line it's far too expensive and quite impractical. 4GB is the practical limit at the moment and even that's stupidly expensive relatively speaking. l. From zapper at openmailbox.org Wed May 3 14:46:13 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 09:46:13 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: References: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On 05/03/2017 06:38 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 11:28 AM, zap wrote: >> >> On 05/03/2017 01:01 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >>> --- >>> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:50 PM, zap wrote: >>>> I assume that's going to be the third series of libre cards right? you >>>> making a lowrisc based processor and graphics, etc, >>> more likely the fourth or fifth. all these things happen in >>> parallel. the one after the RK3288 to investigate is the RK3399 >>> (6-core). also i've heard that the iMX7 is out so am having a look at >>> that. >> RK3399... 11.0 ghz speed if you count all the four cores which are 2 ghz each and 1.5 for the other ones... >> >> wow... >> >> I wonder how much watts that processor uses... >> >> that is crazy fast. I mean really... 4GB ram too I see as the norm. which is good. >> >> on a different note though, perchance will the fourth or fifth series of libre cards support 8gb of ram or more? >> >> I bet you could even get it to 16gb if you wanted... though that wouldn't be needed. heh. > the cost of the RAM ICs to do that are insane. the 1GB DDR3x16 ICs > are already $10 **EACH**. > > normally a DIMM would have 8 or 16 RAM ICs, meaning that for a 4GB > DIMM you need 8x 512mb ICs, or you could do 8GB by using 16 of them. > > normally you get 2 (matched) DIMMS totalling 8GB. > > if you want *32* GB you get 2 matched DIMMs, but nobody in > "mass-production" is shipping windows PCs or laptops with 32GB of RAM > (and if they are it's DDR4) > > additionally, it would need either 2 pairs of x32 DDR RAM > controllers, or it would be necessary to do a cascade layout: a > daisy-chain of RAM ICs.... and i'm not sure it would be possible to > fit 8 RAM ICs onto the 43x78mm PCB anyway. > > bottom line it's far too expensive and quite impractical. 4GB is the > practical limit at the moment and even that's stupidly expensive > relatively speaking. > > l. Ah... okay I had no idea it would be that expensive if you made it from scratch. my bad. I will add that 32gb is absolutely insane and even 16gb is. I wouldn't need that :) 8 would be my limit and even that is a want per-say... :) but if it would be impractical then screw it I say. :) > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 3 14:50:31 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 14:50:31 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: References: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 2:46 PM, zap wrote: >> bottom line it's far too expensive and quite impractical. 4GB is the >> practical limit at the moment and even that's stupidly expensive >> relatively speaking. >> >> l. > > Ah... okay I had no idea it would be that expensive if you made it from > scratch. my bad. hey not a problem. just have to keep an eye on prices for DDR3 (and DDR4 when it's more popular for ECs) over the next few years. l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Wed May 3 16:21:15 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 18:21:15 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: References: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: There is currently a cartel going on on ram ICs. Once the chinese offered the last american ram producing company( I forget it's name) to move its production to China, ram pricing started climbing, the company is healthy again and we are still seeing price hikes, so China is for once investing in homegrown production. My guess it will be no earlier than 2019 before we see prices dropping again. On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 2:46 PM, zap wrote: > > >> bottom line it's far too expensive and quite impractical. 4GB is the > >> practical limit at the moment and even that's stupidly expensive > >> relatively speaking. > >> > >> l. > > > > Ah... okay I had no idea it would be that expensive if you made it from > > scratch. my bad. > > hey not a problem. just have to keep an eye on prices for DDR3 (and > DDR4 when it's more popular for ECs) over the next few years. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penyuanhsing at gmail.com Wed May 3 16:24:30 2017 From: penyuanhsing at gmail.com (Pen-Yuan Hsing) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 16:24:30 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: References: <8B4D9D3A-DA17-4461-ABCD-281DAF461053@gmail.com> <54751fde-f9c2-93ae-b108-e1fc16ef8694@gmail.com> Message-ID: <40d71b62-67c8-fd1b-26b8-54ee6e7c98b3@gmail.com> On 03/05/17 06:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 2:05 AM, Pen-Yuan Hsing wrote: > >> I'm really really excited about a possible 100% libre RISC-V based computer. >> Though I'm a backer of the most recent campaign (and can't wait to get it! >> :)), I lack the knowledge/skills to actually help with the technical >> development of this upcoming RISC card. >> Is there anything I/we can do to help get this RISC initiative going? > > just spread the word (particularly when the new campaign comes up) - > also if you know of any business people willing to invest, meet any > investors particularly those with an ethical or social focus, do put > them in touch. > > also: universities. if you happen to know any university professors > ask their Electrical Engineering Dept to consider research into > RISC-V. it'll sort-of happen anyway (happening already) because it's > easy to get hold of the RISC-V design. > > l. Thanks Luke. This just made me realise that I should bring this up the next time I run into the local maker space. I only occasionally see them, but will be sure to remember this! Is the webpage designed for an interested maker/hacker or computer science academic to easily understand? From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 3 16:27:13 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 16:27:13 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: References: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > There is currently a cartel going on on ram ICs. *sigh* now why doesn't that surprise me. i mean, DDR3 800mhz can be done in 90nm for god's sake. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 3 16:30:42 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 16:30:42 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: <40d71b62-67c8-fd1b-26b8-54ee6e7c98b3@gmail.com> References: <8B4D9D3A-DA17-4461-ABCD-281DAF461053@gmail.com> <54751fde-f9c2-93ae-b108-e1fc16ef8694@gmail.com> <40d71b62-67c8-fd1b-26b8-54ee6e7c98b3@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:24 PM, Pen-Yuan Hsing wrote: > Thanks Luke. This just made me realise that I should bring this up the next > time I run into the local maker space. I only occasionally see them, but > will be sure to remember this! > > Is the webpage designed for an interested maker/hacker or computer science > academic to easily understand? which one? the one i'm maintaining on rhombus-tech is purely for taking notes, so i don't lose track of the contacts / links that i find. also it depends on what you'd like to help with. if you'd like to help with *this* project's efforts to create a riscv-64 SoC, then this list and the rhombus tech wiki's a good starting point if however you'd like to simply make people aware of risc-v in general then the riscv.org web site's the best place to refer them to. l. From zapper at openmailbox.org Wed May 3 23:41:35 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 18:41:35 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: References: <8B4D9D3A-DA17-4461-ABCD-281DAF461053@gmail.com> <54751fde-f9c2-93ae-b108-e1fc16ef8694@gmail.com> <40d71b62-67c8-fd1b-26b8-54ee6e7c98b3@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 05/03/2017 11:30 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:24 PM, Pen-Yuan Hsing wrote: > >> Thanks Luke. This just made me realise that I should bring this up the next >> time I run into the local maker space. I only occasionally see them, but >> will be sure to remember this! >> >> Is the webpage designed for an interested maker/hacker or computer science >> academic to easily understand? > which one? the one i'm maintaining on rhombus-tech is purely for > taking notes, so i don't lose track of the contacts / links that i > find. > > also it depends on what you'd like to help with. if you'd like to > help with *this* project's efforts to create a riscv-64 SoC, then this > list and the rhombus tech wiki's a good starting point > > if however you'd like to simply make people aware of risc-v in > general then the riscv.org web site's the best place to refer them to. isn't lowrisc a better starting point though? > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From zapper at openmailbox.org Wed May 3 23:42:47 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 18:42:47 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: References: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: <74d7f24e-4642-ec86-d0ca-93a2531ee9a3@openmailbox.org> On 05/03/2017 09:50 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 2:46 PM, zap wrote: > >>> bottom line it's far too expensive and quite impractical. 4GB is the >>> practical limit at the moment and even that's stupidly expensive >>> relatively speaking. >>> >>> l. >> Ah... okay I had no idea it would be that expensive if you made it from >> scratch. my bad. > hey not a problem. just have to keep an eye on prices for DDR3 (and > DDR4 when it's more popular for ECs) over the next few years. > > l. Well considering what is happening in todays world, it may very well go down in price... > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From zapper at openmailbox.org Wed May 3 23:43:28 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 18:43:28 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: <74d7f24e-4642-ec86-d0ca-93a2531ee9a3@openmailbox.org> References: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> <74d7f24e-4642-ec86-d0ca-93a2531ee9a3@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On 05/03/2017 06:42 PM, zap wrote: > > On 05/03/2017 09:50 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 2:46 PM, zap wrote: >> >>>> bottom line it's far too expensive and quite impractical. 4GB is the >>>> practical limit at the moment and even that's stupidly expensive >>>> relatively speaking. >>>> >>>> l. >>> Ah... okay I had no idea it would be that expensive if you made it from >>> scratch. my bad. >> hey not a problem. just have to keep an eye on prices for DDR3 (and >> DDR4 when it's more popular for ECs) over the next few years. >> >> l. > Well considering what is happening in todays world, it may very well go > down in price... > In the future I mean... >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu May 4 08:04:12 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 03:04:12 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP Message-ID: Since it seems like a trivially simple task that for some reason no one has taken up, I would like to take the opportunity to exercise a learning experience and simultaneously benefit the community, by liberating PocketCHIP by deblobbing the source and re-compiling. Browsing the archives to see if this had been talked about before, I find it very incredibly humourous I got name dropped on the mailing list by Parobath: > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 20:13:10 +0200 > From: Parobalth > To: arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > Subject: closed-source BootROM and RYF certification > User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) > > At the forum of NextThing Chip is a thread about Chip and a > possible RYF certification. I wrote there that I think that is unlikely > to happen and linked to https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/fsf-ryf-background. > Then someone else mentioned that a closed-source BootROM is used for Chip. > Another guy with username "eaterjolly" wrote about this BootROM: "The same type of SOC is > used for the EOMA croud project which is vying for ryf-endorsement quite > openly [...]" > > You can find the forum thread here: > https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/ntc-thoughts-on-ryf-endorsement/4490 > > Because they use Discourse to power their forum which relies heavily on > JavaScript I also attach a Pdf version of the forum post. > > I wonder if the mentioned statements are correct and how it relates to > the RYF certification of the EOMA68-A20 Libre Tea card. > > kind regards > Paro Like reading that URL, I was like? didn't I start that thread? then I re-read the post and noticed I was quoted in the email xD I didn't participate in the list back then, cause I was afraid my ignorance would be spurred, of course I know that not to be true in hindsight. Feels a bit melodramatic being name dropped on a linux mailing list, usually you only see legends get mentioned by name when they aren't around xD Anywhoo, I more or less just wanted to start this thread because I wanted to know if any one could point out anything that would need be removed besides the wifi firmware. I searched the sunix-uboot repository on github for the word blob and got a few interesting hits for the code in the folder binman: https://github.com/linux-sunxi/u-boot-sunxi/search?q=blob Particularly in files mentioning the devil: "# Entry-type module for Intel Chip Microcode binary blob" I suppose this is just another aspect of mainlining, meant to be parsed out once it's discovered that there are no such blobs in the kernel, but personally I'd feel more comfortable with a script removing these sections of the code altogether. If I had been actually reading the list digests back when I could have posted more accurate information in that thread rather than just guessing. Well, I suppose I can do so now. How humorous it is though too that I've run into the same 40k file limit? Small tiny things suggesting the work of the vicissitudes of fate, much like deja vu in the matrix. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Thu May 4 11:04:55 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 13:04:55 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why is there an intel blob on the chip. I didn't know there was intel ip in there. On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 10:04 AM, John Luke Gibson wrote: > Since it seems like a trivially simple task that for some reason no > one has taken up, I would like to take the opportunity to exercise a > learning experience and simultaneously benefit the community, by > liberating PocketCHIP by deblobbing the source and re-compiling. > > Browsing the archives to see if this had been talked about before, I > find it very incredibly humourous I got name dropped on the mailing > list by Parobath: > > > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 20:13:10 +0200 > > From: Parobalth > > To: arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > Subject: closed-source BootROM and RYF certification > > User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) > > > > At the forum of NextThing Chip is a thread about Chip and a > > possible RYF certification. I wrote there that I think that is unlikely > > to happen and linked to https://www.crowdsupply.com/ > eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/fsf-ryf-background. > > Then someone else mentioned that a closed-source BootROM is used for > Chip. > > Another guy with username "eaterjolly" wrote about this BootROM: "The > same type of SOC is > > used for the EOMA croud project which is vying for ryf-endorsement quite > > openly [...]" > > > > You can find the forum thread here: > > https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/ntc-thoughts-on-ryf-endorsement/4490 > > > > Because they use Discourse to power their forum which relies heavily on > > JavaScript I also attach a Pdf version of the forum post. > > > > I wonder if the mentioned statements are correct and how it relates to > > the RYF certification of the EOMA68-A20 Libre Tea card. > > > > kind regards > > Paro > > Like reading that URL, I was like? didn't I start that thread? then I > re-read the post and noticed I was quoted in the email xD I didn't > participate in the list back then, cause I was afraid my ignorance > would be spurred, of course I know that not to be true in hindsight. > Feels a bit melodramatic being name dropped on a linux mailing list, > usually you only see legends get mentioned by name when they aren't > around xD > > Anywhoo, I more or less just wanted to start this thread because I > wanted to know if any one could point out anything that would need be > removed besides the wifi firmware. I searched the sunix-uboot > repository on github for the word blob and got a few interesting hits > for the code in the folder binman: > > https://github.com/linux-sunxi/u-boot-sunxi/search?q=blob > > Particularly in files mentioning the devil: > > "# Entry-type module for Intel Chip Microcode binary blob" > > I suppose this is just another aspect of mainlining, meant to be > parsed out once it's discovered that there are no such blobs in the > kernel, but personally I'd feel more comfortable with a script > removing these sections of the code altogether. > > If I had been actually reading the list digests back when I could have > posted more accurate information in that thread rather than just > guessing. Well, I suppose I can do so now. > > How humorous it is though too that I've run into the same 40k file > limit? Small tiny things suggesting the work of the vicissitudes of > fate, much like deja vu in the matrix. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penyuanhsing at gmail.com Thu May 4 11:31:02 2017 From: penyuanhsing at gmail.com (Pen-Yuan Hsing) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 11:31:02 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: References: <8B4D9D3A-DA17-4461-ABCD-281DAF461053@gmail.com> <54751fde-f9c2-93ae-b108-e1fc16ef8694@gmail.com> <40d71b62-67c8-fd1b-26b8-54ee6e7c98b3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1ff5d1ab-d253-a6f3-5b8e-54bcbc50aa92@gmail.com> On 03/05/17 16:30, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:24 PM, Pen-Yuan Hsing wrote: >> Thanks Luke. This just made me realise that I should bring this up the next >> time I run into the local maker space. I only occasionally see them, but >> will be sure to remember this! >> >> Is the webpage designed for an interested maker/hacker or computer science >> academic to easily understand? > > which one? the one i'm maintaining on rhombus-tech is purely for > taking notes, so i don't lose track of the contacts / links that i > find. > > also it depends on what you'd like to help with. if you'd like to > help with *this* project's efforts to create a riscv-64 SoC, then this > list and the rhombus tech wiki's a good starting point > > if however you'd like to simply make people aware of risc-v in > general then the riscv.org web site's the best place to refer them to. > > l. Sorry I wasn't clear. I was just wondering if the rhombus-tech page can be a "landing page" that I can forward people to. But if you think riscv.org is fine I can do that, too! That said, riscv.org probably doesn't emphasise the libre nature of it, does it? Therefore would it be helpful to have some sort of accessible introductory page that talks about how RISV-V is "fun" for hacking AND its importance in 100% libre computing? As for me, I have no technical skills to actually help with development. That's why I originally asked if there are other ways to help! From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 4 11:51:00 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 11:51:00 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: <1ff5d1ab-d253-a6f3-5b8e-54bcbc50aa92@gmail.com> References: <8B4D9D3A-DA17-4461-ABCD-281DAF461053@gmail.com> <54751fde-f9c2-93ae-b108-e1fc16ef8694@gmail.com> <40d71b62-67c8-fd1b-26b8-54ee6e7c98b3@gmail.com> <1ff5d1ab-d253-a6f3-5b8e-54bcbc50aa92@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Pen-Yuan Hsing wrote: > Sorry I wasn't clear. I was just wondering if the rhombus-tech page can be a > "landing page" that I can forward people to. But if you think riscv.org is > fine I can do that, too! That said, riscv.org probably doesn't emphasise the > libre nature of it, does it? permissive licenses being what they are.... no, true, it doesn't. libre is a very specific meaning, and the goal is to create a *libre* SoC. ha, bit of irony for you: gaisler research released the LEON3 SPARCv8 core a number of years ago under the GPLv2, so that people could use it for "academic and research purposes", the expectation being that for "commercial" use, they would seek a license from gaisler because you can't mix GPLv2 source with proprietary hard macro source. the irony / beauty is: by seeking out *specifically* hard macros even for DDR3 that are compatible with the GPL, no proprietary license is needed :) so... the source code which implements SMP cache coherency for a multi-core LEON3... i can pull that out and use it :) l. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu May 4 12:05:48 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 07:05:48 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/4/17, Bill Kontos wrote: > Why is there an intel blob on the chip. I didn't know there was intel ip in > there. > > On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 10:04 AM, John Luke Gibson > wrote: > >> Since it seems like a trivially simple task that for some reason no >> one has taken up, I would like to take the opportunity to exercise a >> learning experience and simultaneously benefit the community, by >> liberating PocketCHIP by deblobbing the source and re-compiling. >> >> Browsing the archives to see if this had been talked about before, I >> find it very incredibly humourous I got name dropped on the mailing >> list by Parobath: >> >> > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 20:13:10 +0200 >> > From: Parobalth >> > To: arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> > Subject: closed-source BootROM and RYF certification >> > User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) >> > >> > At the forum of NextThing Chip is a thread about Chip and a >> > possible RYF certification. I wrote there that I think that is unlikely >> > to happen and linked to https://www.crowdsupply.com/ >> eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/fsf-ryf-background. >> > Then someone else mentioned that a closed-source BootROM is used for >> Chip. >> > Another guy with username "eaterjolly" wrote about this BootROM: "The >> same type of SOC is >> > used for the EOMA croud project which is vying for ryf-endorsement >> > quite >> > openly [...]" >> > >> > You can find the forum thread here: >> > https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/ntc-thoughts-on-ryf-endorsement/4490 >> > >> > Because they use Discourse to power their forum which relies heavily on >> > JavaScript I also attach a Pdf version of the forum post. >> > >> > I wonder if the mentioned statements are correct and how it relates to >> > the RYF certification of the EOMA68-A20 Libre Tea card. >> > >> > kind regards >> > Paro >> >> Like reading that URL, I was like? didn't I start that thread? then I >> re-read the post and noticed I was quoted in the email xD I didn't >> participate in the list back then, cause I was afraid my ignorance >> would be spurred, of course I know that not to be true in hindsight. >> Feels a bit melodramatic being name dropped on a linux mailing list, >> usually you only see legends get mentioned by name when they aren't >> around xD >> >> Anywhoo, I more or less just wanted to start this thread because I >> wanted to know if any one could point out anything that would need be >> removed besides the wifi firmware. I searched the sunix-uboot >> repository on github for the word blob and got a few interesting hits >> for the code in the folder binman: >> >> https://github.com/linux-sunxi/u-boot-sunxi/search?q=blob >> >> Particularly in files mentioning the devil: >> >> "# Entry-type module for Intel Chip Microcode binary blob" >> >> I suppose this is just another aspect of mainlining, meant to be >> parsed out once it's discovered that there are no such blobs in the >> kernel, but personally I'd feel more comfortable with a script >> removing these sections of the code altogether. >> >> If I had been actually reading the list digests back when I could have >> posted more accurate information in that thread rather than just >> guessing. Well, I suppose I can do so now. >> >> How humorous it is though too that I've run into the same 40k file >> limit? Small tiny things suggesting the work of the vicissitudes of >> fate, much like deja vu in the matrix. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > Well to clarify, I haven't actually found a blob in uboot yet, rather I found parts of the code which refer to blobs interestingly. So far I found this pile of blobs in their kernel that the readme says they are legally no allowed to distribute, lovely: https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-linux/tree/chip/stable/firmware But also on the wifi, I don't know, but this file certainly looks like the source code of a wireless driver: https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-linux/blob/fd2ad2582c7fb4a5fedff5ac19ca37d138df3963/drivers/net/wireless/ipw2x00/ipw2100.c Gosh, I feel like this is just more mainline stuff that would be parsed out, because there must be more than a hundred drivers with everything from intel to yamaha. From david at boddie.org.uk Thu May 4 13:58:13 2017 From: david at boddie.org.uk (David Boddie) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 14:58:13 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201705041458.13626.david@boddie.org.uk> On Thu May 4 12:05:48 BST 2017, John Luke Gibson wrote: > Gosh, I feel like this is just more mainline stuff that would be > parsed out, because there must be more than a hundred drivers with > everything from intel to yamaha. Yes, you need to look at the configuration file for the kernel to find out what's included. There's a file in the vendor's Buildroot repository (https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-buildroot) that seems to be what you're looking for: https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP- buildroot/blob/chip/stable/board/nextthing/pocketchip/linux.config David From mike.valk at gmail.com Thu May 4 15:29:17 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 16:29:17 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: References: <8B4D9D3A-DA17-4461-ABCD-281DAF461053@gmail.com> <54751fde-f9c2-93ae-b108-e1fc16ef8694@gmail.com> <40d71b62-67c8-fd1b-26b8-54ee6e7c98b3@gmail.com> <1ff5d1ab-d253-a6f3-5b8e-54bcbc50aa92@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2017-05-04 12:51 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > > ha, bit of irony for you: gaisler research released the LEON3 SPARCv8 > core a number of years ago under the GPLv2, so that people could use > it for "academic and research purposes", the expectation being that > for "commercial" use, they would seek a license from gaisler because > you can't mix GPLv2 source with proprietary hard macro source. > > the irony / beauty is: by seeking out *specifically* hard macros even > for DDR3 that are compatible with the GPL, no proprietary license is > needed :) > > so... the source code which implements SMP cache coherency for a > multi-core LEON3... i can pull that out and use it :) > Uhhm. So your going to use the GLP'ed macro for "SMP cache coherency" from the LEON3 SPARCv8 design into the RISC-V so you can build a Multi core (SMP) RISC-V? Or are you considering a new SoC SPARC design? According to wikipedia there is also a LEON4. If it is based on the LEON3 then the source code should be available right? Or is a materialized HW design no obligated to ship with the source since it's not binary/machine code? > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 4 15:33:32 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 15:33:32 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: References: <8B4D9D3A-DA17-4461-ABCD-281DAF461053@gmail.com> <54751fde-f9c2-93ae-b108-e1fc16ef8694@gmail.com> <40d71b62-67c8-fd1b-26b8-54ee6e7c98b3@gmail.com> <1ff5d1ab-d253-a6f3-5b8e-54bcbc50aa92@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:29 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > > > 2017-05-04 12:51 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> >> >> ha, bit of irony for you: gaisler research released the LEON3 SPARCv8 >> core a number of years ago under the GPLv2, so that people could use >> it for "academic and research purposes", the expectation being that >> for "commercial" use, they would seek a license from gaisler because >> you can't mix GPLv2 source with proprietary hard macro source. >> >> the irony / beauty is: by seeking out *specifically* hard macros even >> for DDR3 that are compatible with the GPL, no proprietary license is >> needed :) >> >> so... the source code which implements SMP cache coherency for a >> multi-core LEON3... i can pull that out and use it :) > > > Uhhm. So your going to use the GLP'ed macro for "SMP cache coherency" from > the LEON3 SPARCv8 design into the RISC-V so you can build a Multi core (SMP) > RISC-V? yyep! > Or are you considering a new SoC SPARC design? no. not enough mind-share > According to wikipedia there is also a LEON4. If it is based on the LEON3 > then the source code should be available right? it's not. l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Thu May 4 16:13:23 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 17:13:23 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-05-04 9:04 GMT+02:00 John Luke Gibson : > Since it seems like a trivially simple task that for some reason no > one has taken up, I would like to take the opportunity to exercise a > learning experience and simultaneously benefit the community, by > liberating PocketCHIP by deblobbing the source and re-compiling. > The PocketCHIP is powered by their SoM: http://linux-sunxi.org/NextThingCo_CHIP That is apparently a Allwinner R8 pared with an external rtl8723bs Wifi/BT chip. The R8 is a rebranded A13. If you look at https://getchip.com/pages/chip You'll see: On the left image the RAM (Hynix) and Wifi+BT (Realtek) and Power module (Allwinner AXP209) On the right the SoC (R8/A13) and NAND (Samsung) The A13 does not need blob's to run anymore, the WiFi+BT chip does. AFAIKT Display output needs some checking in Linux and U-boot mainline. But most should be available or somewhat easily hacked in. GPU needs a BLOB which does not work on mainline AFAIKT. Luc Verhaegen did get quite far before he burned out. But looking at the SUNXI wiki the CHIP products could need some TLC. The PocketCHIP does not have it's own page there and probably needs a DT overlay. I doubt that runtime can autosense the hardware on that. > > Browsing the archives to see if this had been talked about before, I > find it very incredibly humourous I got name dropped on the mailing > list by Parobath: > > > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 20:13:10 +0200 > > From: Parobalth > > To: arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > Subject: closed-source BootROM and RYF certification > > User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) > > > > At the forum of NextThing Chip is a thread about Chip and a > > possible RYF certification. I wrote there that I think that is unlikely > > to happen and linked to https://www.crowdsupply.com/ > eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/fsf-ryf-background. > > Then someone else mentioned that a closed-source BootROM is used for > Chip. > > Another guy with username "eaterjolly" wrote about this BootROM: "The > same type of SOC is > > used for the EOMA croud project which is vying for ryf-endorsement quite > > openly [...]" > > > > You can find the forum thread here: > > https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/ntc-thoughts-on-ryf-endorsement/4490 > > > > Because they use Discourse to power their forum which relies heavily on > > JavaScript I also attach a Pdf version of the forum post. > > > > I wonder if the mentioned statements are correct and how it relates to > > the RYF certification of the EOMA68-A20 Libre Tea card. > > > > kind regards > > Paro > > Like reading that URL, I was like? didn't I start that thread? then I > re-read the post and noticed I was quoted in the email xD I didn't > participate in the list back then, cause I was afraid my ignorance > would be spurred, of course I know that not to be true in hindsight. > Feels a bit melodramatic being name dropped on a linux mailing list, > usually you only see legends get mentioned by name when they aren't > around xD > > Anywhoo, I more or less just wanted to start this thread because I > wanted to know if any one could point out anything that would need be > removed besides the wifi firmware. I searched the sunix-uboot > repository on github for the word blob and got a few interesting hits > for the code in the folder binman: > > https://github.com/linux-sunxi/u-boot-sunxi/search?q=blob > > Particularly in files mentioning the devil: > > "# Entry-type module for Intel Chip Microcode binary blob" > That contains a full copy of U-Boot, not the Linux kernel, and thus initialization for all type of hardware. Most of which requires microcode of firmware to work. > > I suppose this is just another aspect of mainlining, meant to be > parsed out once it's discovered that there are no such blobs in the > kernel, but personally I'd feel more comfortable with a script > removing these sections of the code altogether. > > If I had been actually reading the list digests back when I could have > posted more accurate information in that thread rather than just > guessing. Well, I suppose I can do so now. > > How humorous it is though too that I've run into the same 40k file > limit? Small tiny things suggesting the work of the vicissitudes of > fate, much like deja vu in the matrix. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 4 16:19:12 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 16:19:12 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 4:13 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > That is apparently a Allwinner R8 pared with an external rtl8723bs Wifi/BT > chip. > > The R8 is a rebranded A13. > > If you look at > https://getchip.com/pages/chip > > You'll see: > On the left image the RAM (Hynix) and Wifi+BT (Realtek) and Power module > (Allwinner AXP209) > On the right the SoC (R8/A13) and NAND (Samsung) > > The A13 does not need blob's to run anymore, the WiFi+BT chip does. AFAIKT so that'll be a definitive "No" for the Chip, not because of the processor but because one of the peripherals (the RTL8723bs) requires proprietary firmware. if they sold a variant that did *not* have the RTL8723bs *then* they would be able to apply for RYF Certification... assuming that they didn't try to put MALI onto the OS sold with the product [or any other proprietary software]. they'd also need to create a totally separate product page or use some other method which ensured that "Grandma buying CHIP for little Tommie" did NOT get the wrong one. that would mean that the [hypothetical RTL8723bs-less] CHIP would also need a totally different product name. RYF Certification is really rather involved but makes sense when you consider all the angles. l. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu May 4 23:05:01 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 18:05:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/4/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 4:13 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: > >> That is apparently a Allwinner R8 pared with an external rtl8723bs Wifi/BT >> chip. >> >> The R8 is a rebranded A13. >> >> If you look at >> https://getchip.com/pages/chip >> >> You'll see: >> On the left image the RAM (Hynix) and Wifi+BT (Realtek) and Power module >> (Allwinner AXP209) >> On the right the SoC (R8/A13) and NAND (Samsung) >> >> The A13 does not need blob's to run anymore, the WiFi+BT chip does. >> AFAIKT > > so that'll be a definitive "No" for the Chip, not because of the > processor but because one of the peripherals (the RTL8723bs) requires > proprietary firmware. > > if they sold a variant that did *not* have the RTL8723bs *then* they > would be able to apply for RYF Certification... assuming that they > didn't try to put MALI onto the OS sold with the product [or any other > proprietary software]. > > they'd also need to create a totally separate product page or use > some other method which ensured that "Grandma buying CHIP for little > Tommie" did NOT get the wrong one. that would mean that the > [hypothetical RTL8723bs-less] CHIP would also need a totally different > product name. > > RYF Certification is really rather involved but makes sense when you > consider all the angles. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk Yeah, I kind of given up on ntc since they refused to make any comment. I'm more thinking for my purposes, since I already have a few and they have a full usb port on the board free when in pocket-CHIP I figured I could just use a dongle. From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Fri May 5 06:36:24 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 08:36:24 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: References: <91c63b6c-5bd1-367d-9b1f-d61c48643487@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: This is so true. Especially on DDR4 sticks they're basically price fixing at this point. On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > There is currently a cartel going on on ram ICs. Once the chinese offered > the last american ram producing company( I forget it's name) to move its > production to China, ram pricing started climbing, the company is healthy > again and we are still seeing price hikes, so China is for once investing > in homegrown production. My guess it will be no earlier than 2019 before we > see prices dropping again. > > On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < > lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote: > >> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 2:46 PM, zap wrote: >> >> >> bottom line it's far too expensive and quite impractical. 4GB is the >> >> practical limit at the moment and even that's stupidly expensive >> >> relatively speaking. >> >> >> >> l. >> > >> > Ah... okay I had no idea it would be that expensive if you made it from >> > scratch. my bad. >> >> hey not a problem. just have to keep an eye on prices for DDR3 (and >> DDR4 when it's more popular for ECs) over the next few years. >> >> l. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk >> > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Fri May 5 06:53:07 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 08:53:07 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded Message-ID: https://www.crowdsupply.com/gnubee/personal-cloud-1 Always lovely to see this happening. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vkontogpls at gmail.com Fri May 5 09:28:05 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 11:28:05 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is cool but a shame that they didnt contact Luke for using something like the a20 or wait for the rk3388 so we could have more money leverage on the soc and common ICs or even turn this into an eoma housing. On May 5, 2017 8:54 AM, "Allan Mwenda" wrote: > https://www.crowdsupply.com/gnubee/personal-cloud-1 > Always lovely to see this happening. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 5 10:01:10 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 10:01:10 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > This is cool but a shame that they didnt contact Luke for using something > like the a20 or wait for the rk3388 so we could have more money leverage on > the soc and common ICs or even turn this into an eoma housing. https://wikidevi.com/wiki/MediaTek_MT7621 that's a *really* specialist SoC, with USB3, PCIe, 5x GbE and specialist hardware for optimised throughput on routing tables *and* hardware-level accelerated crypto. PCIe could be used to connect NVMe, or, as appears to be the case here, a PCIe bridge plus SATA. so it's a great choice of SoC, that doesn't fit into EOMA68 (or EOMA200 for that matter, as it lacks video output). l. From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Fri May 5 13:15:43 2017 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Fri, 05 May 2017 08:15:43 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded References: Message-ID: > This is cool but a shame that they didnt contact Luke for using something > like the a20 or wait for the rk3388 so we could have more money leverage on The A20 comes with only 1 SATA port (and no other fast port, like PCIe or USB3) and it somehow saturates at 50MB/s when writing, so it's a poor choice for a NAS in general (it's usable, but not great). The RK3388 doesn't even have SATA so it's an even worse choice for a NAS. Stefan From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 5 14:43:20 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 14:43:20 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> This is cool but a shame that they didnt contact Luke for using something >> like the a20 or wait for the rk3388 so we could have more money leverage on > > The A20 comes with only 1 SATA port (and no other fast port, like PCIe > or USB3) and it somehow saturates at 50MB/s when writing, so it's a poor > choice for a NAS in general (it's usable, but not great). The RK3388 > doesn't even have SATA so it's an even worse choice for a NAS. yehyeh - they're not designed for server-level applications, which is great... because EOMA68 is not designed for server-level applications either :) honestly the router market being so saturated and also low-cost-focussed (and specialist) i can't really imagine there being even a *need* for a standards-driven design. i am however going to be doing an EOMA68 router again: it will be using the QCA9531. i'll start a new thread about this. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 5 15:02:53 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 15:02:53 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) Message-ID: okaaay so the plan is to restart the eoma68 router project, this time with a pre-existing reference design based on the QCA9531. that has a PCIe interface, USB2 and a 5-port GbE *and* a 2x2 2.4ghz WIFI antenna. full source is available for everything so it can be entirely libre and RYF Certified. the advantage of having an EOMA68 Card in the router should be clear: the Card will have considerably more resources: RAM, CPU cycles etc. meaning that VPNs can be done without high latency, yet take advantage of the LAN capabilities of the 5-port... you could put in a MiniPCIe Card (a *proper* one) e.g. a 3G/4G/LTE Modem, WIMAX, 802.11ac... blah blah. the tricky bit: connecting the EOMA68 Card to the QCA9531. now, i took a look at the Reference Design and i *really* do not want to touch the layout for the GbE, WIFI or PCIe. so i figured, why not connect the EOMA68 USB2 host interface back-to-back with the QCA9531's USB host? turns out that something called the Cypress AN2720 can do exactly that, and it comes up as a cdc_subset of the usbnet linux kernel driver. yay! quick search online: the datasheet is publicly available, easy to find on digikey. yay! so i would assume, because it's not an actual 10/100 ethernet, that it would run at (saturate) the full 480mb/sec of USB2. so not quite GbE speeds but pretty damn close. yay! anyway should be quite straightforward. l. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri May 5 15:19:05 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 10:19:05 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Replying by phone; please forgive the top-posting (and potential typos) that result from that. Would it be possible to have *two* PCIe Mini Card slots, say one for WiFi and one for 4g/LTE? That would be awesome. Mom hates cables, and I mostly agree with her on that... so look much easier, with the router in the front hall, to run WiFi rather than Ethernet to the kitchen table, two rooms and ~30ft away... On May 5, 2017 10:12 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" wrote: > okaaay so the plan is to restart the eoma68 router project, this time > with a pre-existing reference design based on the QCA9531. that has a > PCIe interface, USB2 and a 5-port GbE *and* a 2x2 2.4ghz WIFI antenna. > full source is available for everything so it can be entirely libre > and RYF Certified. > > the advantage of having an EOMA68 Card in the router should be clear: > the Card will have considerably more resources: RAM, CPU cycles etc. > meaning that VPNs can be done without high latency, yet take advantage > of the LAN capabilities of the 5-port... you could put in a MiniPCIe > Card (a *proper* one) e.g. a 3G/4G/LTE Modem, WIMAX, 802.11ac... blah > blah. > > the tricky bit: connecting the EOMA68 Card to the QCA9531. now, i > took a look at the Reference Design and i *really* do not want to > touch the layout for the GbE, WIFI or PCIe. so i figured, why not > connect the EOMA68 USB2 host interface back-to-back with the QCA9531's > USB host? > > turns out that something called the Cypress AN2720 can do exactly > that, and it comes up as a cdc_subset of the usbnet linux kernel > driver. yay! quick search online: the datasheet is publicly > available, easy to find on digikey. yay! > > so i would assume, because it's not an actual 10/100 ethernet, that it > would run at (saturate) the full 480mb/sec of USB2. so not quite GbE > speeds but pretty damn close. yay! > > anyway should be quite straightforward. > > l. > > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 5 15:36:44 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 15:36:44 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Replying by phone; please forgive the top-posting (and potential typos) that > result from that. > > Would it be possible to have *two* PCIe Mini Card slots, say one for WiFi > and one for 4g/LTE? yes i was just considering that. one wired for USB (only). actually now that i think about it, it would be sensible to put a GL850G onto the QCA9531, then connect both the MiniPCIe (USB only) and AN2720 onto that, rather than have the MiniPCIe wired directly to an EOMA68 USB. that way the MiniPCIe is still accessible by the QCA9531 even if there's no EOMA68 Card in use. > That would be awesome. Mom hates cables, and I mostly agree with her on > that... so look much easier, with the router in the front hall, to run WiFi > rather than Ethernet to the kitchen table, two rooms and ~30ft away... yeahyeah. well in this case 2.4ghz WIFI will already be on-board, but if you wanted 5.4ghz or 802.11ac (assuming you can get a MiniPCIe 802.11ac Card) that's what you'd use that slot for. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 5 15:38:35 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 15:38:35 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers/ath10k QCA9880. ath10k. proprietary. blegh. but it's MiniPCIe. so... doable. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri May 5 15:47:37 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 10:47:37 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Better, in my opinion, to have WiFi on a card. I've yet to meet a WiFi adapter that didn't burn itself out within a year or two. In fact, the one I'm using right now (Rosewill RNX-EasyN1 from Newegg) is barely piping data at all... two weeks ago I could stream Pandora on here, but not today. I've a replacement on the way, but I only ordered it yesterday so it's going to be a (long) week... For some reason, this card wants to work better if I plug it in after the system completely boots, rather than if I boot the system with the card attached. Oy. Machine is a Lenovo X420, before anyone asks -- its internal card is even more horrible than the burnt-out USB one I'm griping about... and I can't really change that without serious BIOS mucking (hooray for whitelists, not!), which I pretty well don't want to do. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 5 16:03:39 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 16:03:39 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Better, in my opinion, to have WiFi on a card. QCA9531 it's built-in and i'm not messing with the layout, so it stays. MiniPCIe (actual PCIe) is already on the reference design so _that_ stays. USB2 MiniPCIe (with a SIM card) is something to be added, definitely. l. From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Fri May 5 19:08:33 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 21:08:33 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think you can put that large number of drives on a rockchip CPU On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > This is cool but a shame that they didnt contact Luke for using something > like the a20 or wait for the rk3388 so we could have more money leverage on > the soc and common ICs or even turn this into an eoma housing. > On May 5, 2017 8:54 AM, "Allan Mwenda" wrote: > >> https://www.crowdsupply.com/gnubee/personal-cloud-1 >> Always lovely to see this happening. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk >> > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Fri May 5 19:16:21 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 21:16:21 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Luke have you looked into the Atheros AR9590 and AR9580? I think those are the fastest i could find in the wild On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Christopher Havel > wrote: > > Better, in my opinion, to have WiFi on a card. > > QCA9531 it's built-in and i'm not messing with the layout, so it > stays. MiniPCIe (actual PCIe) is already on the reference design so > _that_ stays. USB2 MiniPCIe (with a SIM card) is something to be > added, definitely. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Fri May 5 19:27:49 2017 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Fri, 05 May 2017 14:27:49 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded References: Message-ID: >> The A20 comes with only 1 SATA port (and no other fast port, like PCIe >> or USB3) and it somehow saturates at 50MB/s when writing, so it's a poor >> choice for a NAS in general (it's usable, but not great). The RK3388 >> doesn't even have SATA so it's an even worse choice for a NAS. > yehyeh - they're not designed for server-level applications, which is > great... because EOMA68 is not designed for server-level applications > either :) FWIW, I'm using an A20 as a small router+NAS+server and am very satisfied with it: the limited SATA speed is never the bottleneck since I connect to it over wifi on one side (where competition with neighbors and in-house obstacles means I rarely get over 2MB/s) and over DSL on the other (and here in Canada, DSL speeds haven't changed much over the last 10 years). But for a "dedicated" NAS box that can hold up to 6 disks, an A20 would be a rather odd choice. Stefan From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 5 19:30:00 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 19:30:00 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Allan Mwenda wrote: > Hi Luke have you looked into the Atheros AR9590 and AR9580? I think those > are the fastest i could find in the wild it's more a practical matter of what's accessible. have a quick look: search for any combination of keywords "AR9580 datasheet" or anything along those lines. see if you can find something - anything. even an indication of what chipset's in it... ah! "AR9580 linux" turns up this: https://wiki.debian.org/ath9k whew ok so it's an ath9k which means firmware's on-board (whew). l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 5 19:30:44 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 19:30:44 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 7:27 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > But for a "dedicated" NAS box that can hold up to 6 disks, an A20 would > be a rather odd choice. its SATA interface is also very very specifically a single LUN. From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Fri May 5 20:04:37 2017 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Fri, 05 May 2017 15:04:37 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) References: Message-ID: > so i would assume, because it's not an actual 10/100 ethernet, that it > would run at (saturate) the full 480mb/sec of USB2. so not quite GbE > speeds but pretty damn close. yay! Based on what USB2 gives us with "mass-storage" devices, 30MB/s is basically the upper bound. And FWIW, when I connect my desktop to my A20-based router via USB2 on one side and USB-OTG on the other (using the "gether" gadget), I'm getting about 10MB/s, so "faster than fast-ethernet" maybe, but be surprised if you get "close" to GbE speeds. Stefan From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 5 20:20:13 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 20:20:13 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> so i would assume, because it's not an actual 10/100 ethernet, that it >> would run at (saturate) the full 480mb/sec of USB2. so not quite GbE >> speeds but pretty damn close. yay! > > Based on what USB2 gives us with "mass-storage" devices, 30MB/s is > basically the upper bound. And FWIW, when I connect my desktop to my > A20-based router via USB2 on one side and USB-OTG on the other (using > the "gether" gadget), I'm getting about 10MB/s, so "faster than > fast-ethernet" maybe, but be surprised if you get "close" to GbE speeds. g_ether over the A20's musb (Mentor USB) interface is... very broken. musb is a ridiculously-low-cost OTG controller that has to be partially-implemented in softtware. the current state of the linux driver for musb is completely fucked-up. for example: if you plug a USB3 hub into it, then plug in a USB 1.1 keyboard, it goes "aargh fuck i have no fucking idea what to do, aaiyaaa splurgh". likewise the usb speed-allication code is all screwed up: you can just about get away with plugging in one device but a hub and then multiple devices: forget it. so what you are probably running into is the musb driver going "ha! you plugged in a *what*?? pffh i have no idea what speed that is so let's just assume it's USB 1.0 mkaay?" a proper USB2 host controller should have none of these difficulties. l. From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Fri May 5 20:23:21 2017 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Fri, 05 May 2017 15:23:21 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded References: Message-ID: >> But for a "dedicated" NAS box that can hold up to 6 disks, an A20 would >> be a rather odd choice. > its SATA interface is also very very specifically a single LUN. AFAIK it is compatible with sata multipliers (see discussion at http://linux-sunxi.org/SATA), tho you have to request it explicitly with the "enable_pmp=1" module argument. Stefan From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Fri May 5 20:30:08 2017 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Fri, 05 May 2017 15:30:08 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) References: Message-ID: > g_ether over the A20's musb (Mentor USB) interface is... very broken. No doubt. But IME that tends to apply to a large proportion of USB thingies. > so what you are probably running into is the musb driver going "ha! > you plugged in a *what*?? pffh i have no idea what speed that is so > let's just assume it's USB 1.0 mkaay?" I don't know what's the source of the 10MB/s performance, but note that 10MB/s is still 7 times faster than the theoretical upper bound of USB1, so it's definitely not putting itself in USB1 mode. > a proper USB2 host controller should have none of these difficulties. Let's hope so, Stefan From vkontogpls at gmail.com Fri May 5 20:46:31 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 22:46:31 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok I stand corrected them. So this basically means we are not going to see any NAS products from an eoma standard ? On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 10:23 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> But for a "dedicated" NAS box that can hold up to 6 disks, an A20 would > >> be a rather odd choice. > > its SATA interface is also very very specifically a single LUN. > > AFAIK it is compatible with sata multipliers (see discussion at > http://linux-sunxi.org/SATA), tho you have to request it explicitly with > the "enable_pmp=1" module argument. > > > Stefan > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 5 21:05:06 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 21:05:06 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> g_ether over the A20's musb (Mentor USB) interface is... very broken. > > No doubt. But IME that tends to apply to a large proportion of > USB thingies. > >> so what you are probably running into is the musb driver going "ha! >> you plugged in a *what*?? pffh i have no idea what speed that is so >> let's just assume it's USB 1.0 mkaay?" > > I don't know what's the source of the 10MB/s performance, but note that > 10MB/s is still 7 times faster than the theoretical upper bound of USB1, > so it's definitely not putting itself in USB1 mode. which one's the... wait... you said 10MB/s - is that 10 Megabytes/sec? which is 100mbits / sec? From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 5 21:06:38 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 21:06:38 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 8:46 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > Ok I stand corrected them. So this basically means we are not going to see > any NAS products from an eoma standard ? maybe when a USB3 SoC comes out, making the speed worthwhile. l. From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Fri May 5 21:29:31 2017 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Fri, 05 May 2017 16:29:31 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) References: Message-ID: >> I don't know what's the source of the 10MB/s performance, but note that >> 10MB/s is still 7 times faster than the theoretical upper bound of USB1, >> so it's definitely not putting itself in USB1 mode. > which one's the... wait... you said 10MB/s - is that 10 > Megabytes/sec? which is 100mbits / sec? That's right. Stefan From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 5 21:35:50 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 21:35:50 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 9:29 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >>> I don't know what's the source of the 10MB/s performance, but note that >>> 10MB/s is still 7 times faster than the theoretical upper bound of USB1, >>> so it's definitely not putting itself in USB1 mode. >> which one's the... wait... you said 10MB/s - is that 10 >> Megabytes/sec? which is 100mbits / sec? > > That's right. ok so that's odd, why limit a virtual device's speed? From adam at vany.ca Fri May 5 22:21:43 2017 From: adam at vany.ca (Adam Van Ymeren) Date: Fri, 05 May 2017 17:21:43 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 5, 2017 4:06:38 PM EDT, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 8:46 PM, Bill Kontos >wrote: >> Ok I stand corrected them. So this basically means we are not going >to see >> any NAS products from an eoma standard ? > > maybe when a USB3 SoC comes out, making the speed worthwhile. Would EOMA200 be suitable with its pcie and sata interfaces? > >l. > >_______________________________________________ >arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 6 07:39:54 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 07:39:54 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] More Libre Hardware Getting Funded In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 10:21 PM, Adam Van Ymeren wrote: > On May 5, 2017 4:06:38 PM EDT, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >>On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 8:46 PM, Bill Kontos >>wrote: >>> Ok I stand corrected them. So this basically means we are not going >>to see >>> any NAS products from an eoma standard ? >> >> maybe when a USB3 SoC comes out, making the speed worthwhile. > > Would EOMA200 be suitable with its pcie and sata interfaces? not really. EOMA interfaces are mandatory. that means that everything else - the video, I2C, SPI, SD/MMC and all the other GPIO - must also be provided. instead, a case needs to be made for a new standard - and that includes a thread/narrative as to *why it is justifiable*. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 6 10:53:28 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 10:53:28 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/router/news/ ok so i've done a preliminary layout and it's to be a 160x160 PCB. the QCA9531 Reference Design's layout - i'm not touching it with a 10ft barge pole. it contains *really* complex R.F. layout and PCIe connectivity. i'll be routing round this layout through some of the gaps, to re-route some of the GPIO and also the USB connections, but that's it: nothing else. it's actually a really powerful board, with connectivity similar to that of pcengines.ch alix boards and some of mikrotic's routers. l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sun May 7 10:53:27 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 05:53:27 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Message-ID: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly-rk3399-six-core-64-bit-high-performance-pl Has all source code for the computer been disclosed? Lkcl has says, he can make use of the rk3399 if he has the processor's data sheet. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly-rk3399-six-core-64-bit-high-performance-pl/posts/1818477 What data about the rk3399 does lkcl not have? What is the performance of the rk3399 processor compared to a x86 dual core 2ghz? From vkontogpls at gmail.com Sun May 7 12:13:29 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 14:13:29 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The A72 is supposed to be as fast as a Core M Broadwell core at 2.5 ghz( assuming that the A72 maintains clockspeed while the Core M throttles, which is the case in most fanless laptops). The rk3399 is clocked at 2.0 ghz on the A72 cluster so it's slower but it has the benefit of the neon SIMD extension set for future codecs( should someone want to make it work) and dedicated ip blocks for a lot of stuff. On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 12:53 PM, wrote: > https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly- > rk3399-six-core-64-bit-high-performance-pl > Has all source code for the computer been disclosed? > Lkcl has says, he can make use of the rk3399 if he has the processor's > data sheet. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly- > rk3399-six-core-64-bit-high-performance-pl/posts/1818477 What data about > the rk3399 does lkcl not have? > What is the performance of the rk3399 processor compared to a x86 dual > core 2ghz? > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumblob at gmail.com Sun May 7 13:37:17 2017 From: dumblob at gmail.com (dumblob) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 14:37:17 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, the router looks really good. Finally a possible competitor for https://omnia.turris.cz/en/ . I think there might be quite a huge user based interested in such a router (judging based on the interest in Turris routers - see e.g. their Kickstarter campaign). From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 7 14:06:18 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 14:06:18 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:53 AM, wrote: > https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly-rk3399-six-core-64-bit-high-performance-pl > Has all source code for the computer been disclosed? as far as i was able to ascertain when i last checked: yes. u-boot and linux kernel, no proprietary pieces at all. > Lkcl has says, he can make use of the rk3399 if he has the processor's data sheet. i already have the datasheet. it's the reference design that i need. > What data about the rk3399 does lkcl not have? i need a reference design. full schematics, full pcb layout. > What is the performance of the rk3399 processor compared to a x86 dual core 2ghz? the rk3288 already outperforms a dual-core intel atom. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 7 14:10:59 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 14:10:59 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:37 PM, dumblob wrote: > Well, the router looks really good. Finally a possible competitor for > https://omnia.turris.cz/en/ . shrieeek! $EUR 339!! *splutter*! the qca9531 is $10, the rest of the components would bring it to a mass-volum retail cost of say... $75, and an EOMA68-A20 Card at mass-volume retail pricing would be around $30. > I think there might be quite a huge user based interested in such a > router (judging based on the interest in Turris routers - see e.g. > their Kickstarter campaign). good to hear. From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Sun May 7 15:05:10 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Sun, 07 May 2017 17:05:10 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9500A652-147D-463B-BE4E-DA6C24E50C1F@gmail.com> Is msata okay? I know its sold as Compex msata cards On 5 May 2017 21:30:00 GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Allan Mwenda >wrote: >> Hi Luke have you looked into the Atheros AR9590 and AR9580? I think >those >> are the fastest i could find in the wild > > it's more a practical matter of what's accessible. have a quick >look: search for any combination of keywords "AR9580 datasheet" or >anything along those lines. see if you can find something - anything. >even an indication of what chipset's in it... ah! "AR9580 linux" >turns up this: https://wiki.debian.org/ath9k whew ok so it's an ath9k >which means firmware's on-board (whew). > >l. > >_______________________________________________ >arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pablo at parobalth.org Sun May 7 16:17:07 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 17:17:07 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> On Thu, May 04, 2017 at 03:04:12AM -0400, John Luke Gibson wrote: > Since it seems like a trivially simple task that for some reason no > one has taken up, I would like to take the opportunity to exercise a > learning experience and simultaneously benefit the community, by > liberating PocketCHIP by deblobbing the source and re-compiling. I think we could argue about the definition of a "trivially simple task" and if it applies to this case. I own a NextThing Chip and I am interested in running it blob-free. Please document your efforts and keep me/us updated! > Anywhoo, I more or less just wanted to start this thread because I > wanted to know if any one could point out anything that would need be > removed besides the wifi firmware. I searched the sunix-uboot > repository on github for the word blob and got a few interesting hits > for the code in the folder binman: > > https://github.com/linux-sunxi/u-boot-sunxi/search?q=blob As far as I know NextThing uses a custom U-boot fork which can be found here: https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-u-boot Kernel source used on Chip is here: https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-linux/releases I believe that NextThing uses free NAND-drivers developed by Free Electrons which shall be mainlined someday. Keep in mind that there are two types of NAND used and that NextThing provides different images for these NAND-types. Basically you have to patch out the support for the non-free wifi module and make sure your dongle works properly. You also have to patch out the support for the Mali gpu. I have not heard about any other blobs. It is bothersome that NextThing is quite opaque in their communication about blobs. You will have to look right at the source to understand what exactly is going on. To flash your deblobbed image beware of the closed-source flashing tool for the Chrome browser and use the strange “Ubuntu virtual machine SDK solution”. I read somewhere that one NextThing developer flashes right from his Debian box but this way is not officially supported. Good luck and Happy Hacking! Pablo From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 7 16:36:40 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 16:36:40 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> Message-ID: On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Pablo wrote: > To flash your deblobbed image beware of the closed-source flashing tool for the Chrome browser and use the strange “Ubuntu virtual machine > SDK solution”. I read somewhere that one NextThing developer flashes > right from his Debian box but this way is not officially supported. jaezuss this kind of thing pisses me off. there is *NO NEED* for proprietary tools with the A13 (R8), the A20 or any other allwinner processor. fex-boot has been in sunxi-tools for at least FOUR YEARS since i helped hno and others with the USB-sniffing of the FEL protocol. l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sun May 7 21:29:53 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 16:29:53 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Message-ID: All software for the mali-t860 is open source? -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Linux on small ARM machines Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 14:06:18 +0100 > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:53 AM, wrote: > > https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly-rk3399-six-core-64-bit-high-performance-pl > > Has all source code for the computer been disclosed? > > as far as i was able to ascertain when i last checked: yes. u-boot > and linux kernel, no proprietary pieces at all. > > > Lkcl has says, he can make use of the rk3399 if he has the processor's data sheet. > > i already have the datasheet. it's the reference design that i need. > > > What data about the rk3399 does lkcl not have? > > i need a reference design. full schematics, full pcb layout. > > > What is the performance of the rk3399 processor compared to a x86 dual core 2ghz? > > the rk3288 already outperforms a dual-core intel atom. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From zapper at openmailbox.org Sun May 7 22:10:04 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 17:10:04 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > All software for the mali-t860 is open source? probably a good deal of it is, but the question becomes... how much of it is... > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk > To: Linux on small ARM machines > Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? > Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 14:06:18 +0100 > >> --- >> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >> >> >> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:53 AM, wrote: >>> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly-rk3399-six-core-64-bit-high-performance-pl >>> Has all source code for the computer been disclosed? >> as far as i was able to ascertain when i last checked: yes. u-boot >> and linux kernel, no proprietary pieces at all. >> >>> Lkcl has says, he can make use of the rk3399 if he has the processor's data sheet. >> i already have the datasheet. it's the reference design that i need. >> >>> What data about the rk3399 does lkcl not have? >> i need a reference design. full schematics, full pcb layout. >> >>> What is the performance of the rk3399 processor compared to a x86 dual core 2ghz? >> the rk3288 already outperforms a dual-core intel atom. >> >> l. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From doark at mail.com Mon May 8 04:00:44 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 23:00:44 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170507230044.0be0a2c2@ulgy_thing> I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 12:35:19 +0200 "mike.valk at gmail.com" wrote: > > 2017-04-27 13:21 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> : > > > ok so it would seem that the huge amount of work going into RISC-V > > means that it's on track to becoming a steamroller that will squash > > proprietary SoCs, so i'm quite happy to make sure that it's > > not-so-subtly nudged in the right direction. > > > > i've started a page where i am keeping notes: > > http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/libre_riscv/ and the general goal is to > > create a desirable mass-volume low-cost SoC, meaning that it will need > > to at least do 1080p60 video decode and have 3D graphics capability. > > oh... and be entirely libre. > > > > the plan is: > > > > * to create an absolute basic SoC, starting from lowRISC (64-bit), > > ORGFX (3D graphics) and MIAOW (OpenCL engine), in at least 90nm as a > > low-cost proof-of-concept where mistakes can be iterated through > > * provide the end-result to software developers so that they can have > > actual real silicon to work with > > * begin a first crowd-funding phase to create a 28nm (or better) > > multi-core SMP SoC Links? > > for this first phase the interfaces that i've tracked down so far are > > almost entirely from opencores.org, meaning that there really should > > be absolutely no need to license any costly hard macros. that > > *includes* a DDR3 controller (but does not include a DDR3 PHY, which > > will need to be designed): > > > > * DDR3 controller (not including PHY) > > * lowRISC contains "minion cores" so can be soft-programmed to do any > > GPIO > > * boot and debug through ZipCPU's UART (use an existing EC's on-board > > FLASH) > > > > Perhaps put it sirectly to an USB bridge. UART's on debugging hardware > is non existant. We all use FTDI dongles. > > Look like OpenCores has a module. https://opencores.org/project,usb2uart > > > > > * OpenCores VGA controller (actually it's an LCD RGB/TTL controller) > > * OpenCores ULPI USB 2.0 controller > > * OpenCores USB-OTG 1.1 PHY > > > > note that there are NO ANALOG INTERFACES in that. this is *really* > > important to avoid, because mixed analog and digital is incredibly > > hard to get right. also note that things like HDMI, SATA, and even > > ethernet are quite deliberately NOT on the list. Ethernet RMII (which > > is digital) could be implemented in software using a minion core. the > > advantage of using the opencores VGA (actually LCD) controller is: i > > already have the full source for a *complete* linux driver. Considering that analog was around *long* before digital I'm surprised that it is "Hard to get right", is there a reason for this? Isn't there a chip for just this kind of thing? > > I2C, SPI, SD/MMC, UART, EINT and GPIO - all of these can be > > software-programmed as bit-banging in the minion cores. > > > > these interfaces, amazingly, are enough to do an SoC that, if put into > > 40nm, would easily compete with some of TI's offerings, as well as the > > Allwinner R8 (aka A13). > > > > i've also managed to get alliance and coriolis2 compiled on > > debian/testing (took a while) so it *might* not be necessary even to Hmm, I can't seem to google that piece of SW. Do you have a link? > > pay for the ASIC design tooling (the cost of which is insane). > > coriolis2 includes a reasonable auto-router. i still have yet to go > > through the tutorials to see how it works. for design rules: 90nm > > design rules (stacks etc.) are actually publicly available, which > > would potentially mean that a clock rate of at least 300mhz would be > > achievable: interestingly 800mhz DDR3 RAM from 2012 used 90nm > > geometry. 65 down to 40nm would be much more preferable but may be > > hard to get. How would you get it in the first place? Is there a company dedicated to larger than industry standard (nm) silicon production for small businesses, or are you planning to buy a ... what would it be called? ... printed wafer producer? > > graphics: i'm going through the list of people who have done GPUs (or > > parts of one). MIAOW, Nyuzi, ORGFX. the gplgpu isn't gpl. it's been > > modified to "the text of the GPL license plus an additional clause > > which is that if you want to use this for commercial purposes then... > > you can't". which is *NOT* a GPL license, it's a proprietary > > commercial license! > > > > MIAOW is just an OpenCL engine but a stonking good one that's > > compatible with AMD's software. nyuzi is an experimental GPU where i > > hope its developer believes in its potential. ORGFX i am currently > > evaluating but it looks pretty damn good, and i think it is slightly > > underestimated. i could really use some help evaluating it properly. > > my feeling is that a combination of MIAOW to handle shading and ORGFX > > for the rendering would be a really powerful combination. What about Vulkan? I'm asking, because it is multithreaded, as opposed to OpenGL. I've also heard, though perhaps the person was wrong, that it is supposed to replace OpenCL. From doark at mail.com Sun May 7 21:26:06 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 16:26:06 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170507162606.4b5fdf54@ulgy_thing> I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:58:57 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:47 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: > > > If you're trying to trans-code something that you don't have a > > co-processor/module for you're forced to CPU/GPU trans-coding. > > you may be misunderstanding: the usual way to interact with a GPU is > to use a memory buffer, drop some data in it, tell the GPU (again via > a memory location) "here, get on with it" - basically a > hardware-version of an API - and it goes an executes its *OWN* > instructions, completely independently and absolutely nothing to do > with the CPU. > > there's no "transcoding" involved because they share the same memory > bus. > > > Would a FPGA > > still be more power huns gry then? > > yes. > > > I think/hope FPGA's are more efficient for specific tasks then > > CPU/GPU's > > you wouldn't give a general-purpose task to an FPGA, and you wouldn't > give a specialist task for which they're not suited to a CPU, GPU _or_ > an FPGA: you'd give it to a custom piece of silicon. I always thought that FPGA's were good for prototyping or small fast tasks... But that's just how I learned about them. > in the case where you have something that falls outside of the custom > silicon (a newer CODEC for example) then yes, an FPGA would *possibly* > help... if and only if you have enough bandwidth. > > video is RIDICULOUSLY bandwidth-hungry. 1920x1080 @ 60fps 32bpp > is... an insane data-rate. it's 470 MEGABYTES per second. that's > what the framebuffer has to handle, so you not only have to have the > HDMI (or other video) PHY capable of handling that but the CODEC > hardware has to be able to *write* - simultaneously - on the exact > same memory bus. > Your number seemed off to me so I did the math: 1920*1080*60*4 == 497,664,000 You're off by almost 30 MiB. Most video cameras (that I've been able to locate), do 24bpp, 640x480 at 30fps, so that would make the bandwidth requirements. 27,648,000 Which should be more reasonable for an FPGA (not that I have all the specs sitting in front of me, mind you). I am assuming that "encoding video" means encoding from a video camera or a small youtube video as opposed to encoding to send to a device over, say, an HDMI cable. > > > We can always have evolution create a efficient decoder ;-) > > https://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits/ > Sincerely, David From doark at mail.com Sun May 7 21:25:50 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 16:25:50 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 14:27:00 +0000 Lyberta wrote: > > Christopher Havel: > > @ Lyberta -- I'll just say that I don't think it's any healthier to be > > wanting to kill other people than it is to be wanting to kill > > yourself. Somehow that doesn't fit my definition of 'normal'. But > > that's me -- and I don't want to, you know, tell you how to think. > > Not my job. So I'll drop this for now, except to say that pills can > > do you a world of good if you let them. > > This is a humane execution. They turn you into a vegetable and other > people think you are awake, but you are asleep, you have no coherent > thoughts. I have gained 40 kgs under antipsychotics and now I have > problems standing up and sitting down, I have low blood pressure, my > knees hurt a lot, I can barely walk anymore. I'm just a lump of fat now. > Lump of fat that waits for the world to kill it. @ Lyberta, I've been thinking a lot about what you wrote, what I'm about to write could be totally wrong, but if I'm right it would lead to a cure for you. I'm not a psychiatrist, but I do know what a request for help from anyone, anyone at all, looks like. I suspect that you might be more intelligent than people give you credit for. I suspect that you're caught in the ultimate trap, weather you realize it consciously it or not. You see, when philosophers first removed God from their philosophies they are tasked then with trying to find a purpose to life. As others on this list pointed out becoming a homicidal maniac is pointless, but as the aforementioned philosophers found, the universe will eventually end and all that is, or was, or could be, or could have been will cease to exist. They were thus confounded in the question that never has been answered by atheists. That would be, "When should I die." and more generally, "What is the point of it all." I've seen many people caught in this trap, perhaps without knowing it. They start off as fun people capable of much, as they age they realize what they have not done, and what they are not and probably will never be. They then try things like suicide, or boasting, and thus they loose those qualities which draw others to them if not their life as well. I think you're caught in the same trap, unable to realize your own potential for lack of a moral standard (it also suffers as a result of an Atheistic philosophy), and unable to accept a pointless existence. You see, Killing others would be something (you describe laughing at them and being rid of them), and killing yourself would cause you to no longer think about your problems. So my theory would at least satisfy both of your, ahem, ravings, in as much as it would point to a root cause of both. I said above that "I suspect that you might be more intelligent than people give you credit for," and here is what I mean. If you can reason that far, even subconsciously, then you have gotten farther then most in as much as you realize the lack of adequate solutions. Put another way, you are way up there with the very best Atheistic minds. Now I could easily go on, but I think that I'll leave you with a hopefully clearer understanding of what is bothering you. As Mr. Havel pointed out, I don't intend to tell you how to think, and ultimately, more people are cured everyday of mentally related problems by their own minds then drugs, or what others tell them. Think about it, panic, too much and a person can't function, too little and they are lackadaisical. Or fear, or pain, or love (I'm talking emotional attraction), or well, anything. In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is eyeopening, insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world around you, as opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. This would at least give you lots of interesting and worthwhile things to think about IMHO and it would be something that even a vegetable could do :) I'd suggest "The Chronicles of Narnia" by C.S. Lewis and "The phantom Toll Both" by Norton Juster. It is from "The Chronicles of Narnia" that we get the quote "Oh my mistress do not by any means destroy yourself, for if you live you may yet have good fortune, but all the dead are dead alike!" The very best, David -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEL2N7+xWmVOJDQxWGm3XCrhg2YP8FAlkPgs4ACgkQm3XCrhg2 YP9kaxAA58VjxuBdopWgK2Po9nyUfXZmCtv3bq8fL7JoGD8/bQ0aLk9JpvtNm6J4 ZOIjtJzcz8Kdfap3v3ry6CwqXqY7yYnzFkLuCqVLxER7+WXe1F7fOlgupq+GGZAb nwgqoObJJbQR/TD3SKgUHJ3/tPykb2jWN9Kqorgr97DserqRG8hIOgqFN4pKo+8o bDxqKUpGzRIcSX6k3edt6G0I0aJTPwQVW6kegN3BEvOj3PlGByrg2mhWUPZXF4Da A9aQKAUfEJyyqjboeILi1MlIg9CJJjEpImCqvre19Y6b0s203D+epVn3sqCZcYTo MS/uYRk87GKU0zq15WO1lmNtprptXmDGob3YrI8CjocEUpgxqeZ9hwXniDnXHt2C zo6odx40sn283k/8lPA+Tfsc8CdhAs5b4QkNQtkRnZjFxJPaUe4diBhfWPyJHA4+ GhxFeC9Lpgh7ftAMAJfRRDuOqQ7juUHSmbJmulvUwf55sAzA4miP9qdrvR9zDIIz 8goJDinuU1IwTlDCjiGUDE3RMdHeNxwLoI2wtqsOErSJJunkd6zxUq/gy+1wZljd uvMAZpqy5ni6gc8+Ck5D7DFSl4WFfR/LbwTjoTY7Mii+2ipkbU+dQgm0IiFPmJIZ Beink0Hv7kBga1aAz5xe7/IdeG0kH0GXUn+/W2uEV27EuG4sWQ8= =BlCA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From doark at mail.com Mon May 8 02:07:03 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 21:07:03 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] first prototype microdesktop casework In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170507210703.01e9f2b8@ulgy_thing> I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. On Sat, 29 Apr 2017 12:42:29 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > > http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/micro_desktop/news/ > > ok, ouch, onto the fourth revision of the corner-pieces already, and > some minor changes to the plywood are needed as well. this really > would have been awkward if someone else did it. > > the anycubic 3d printer is holding up well. the higher-quality PLA > from the company i found on aliexpress seems reasonable so far (the > "standard" quality definitely isn't: it literally crumbles under > pressure). Luke, (I can call you Luke, since you sign your name that way, right?) PLA stands for Poly-Lactic-Acid and if they are selling you something else you can complain, if not sue for false advertising. That's why we label things, so that we know what they are, right? So one PLA aught to be the same as any other. Aluminum is aluminum, titanium is titanium, why is PLA not PLA? I own a Reach3D printer. It's an all aluminum housing and z axis gear printer. I'm still in the construction phase, but if me and my caliper (it's auto-calibrating but I want it perfect :) work well together then I should be printing sometime around the 21st. I could help you with my printer at limited expense (unless something big happens in my life :) Also, I bought on Amazon 2 spools of PLA and one of PC. The PLA cost ~$20 per KG while the PC was ~$30. It seems to me that you might be better off with PC if finding a good PLA supplier and making a case that is not flimsy with PLA is such a problem. Sincerely, David From doark at mail.com Sun May 7 21:26:10 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 16:26:10 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170507162610.0ae6955b@ulgy_thing> I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 19:54:43 +0200 Hannes Schnaitter wrote: > Hi, > > I've done some research into this in the last couple of weeks. > > Am Fri, 28 Apr 2017 20:21:00 +0300 > schrieb Bill Kontos : > > I'm sad to say that it isn't even close to solved. The only two > concrete ideas I found are: > 1. Egoism. The driver of the car always wins. > 2. Utilitarianism. "The Greater Good". The best outcome for the most > people. > > There is also another one which ignores most of the problem. > 3. Random. Creating different possible crash cenarios and selecting one > at random. > > > Then there is the problem of who would by utilitarian cars. [2] > > Greetings > Hannes I would. It's what I'd do in real life. I've had similar choices before. I have no regrets about placing my own life on the line either. Sincerely, David From doark at mail.com Mon May 8 02:07:50 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 21:07:50 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170507210750.77b8aede@ulgy_thing> I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. On Wed, 3 May 2017 11:38:26 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 11:28 AM, zap wrote: > > > > > > On 05/03/2017 01:01 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> --- > >> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: > >> https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > >> > >> > >> On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:50 PM, zap > >> wrote: > >>> I assume that's going to be the third series of libre cards right? > >>> you making a lowrisc based processor and graphics, etc, > >> more likely the fourth or fifth. all these things happen in > >> parallel. the one after the RK3288 to investigate is the RK3399 > >> (6-core). also i've heard that the iMX7 is out so am having a look > >> at that. > > > > RK3399... 11.0 ghz speed if you count all the four cores which are 2 > > ghz each and 1.5 for the other ones... > > > > wow... > > > > I wonder how much watts that processor uses... > > > > that is crazy fast. I mean really... 4GB ram too I see as the norm. > > which is good. > > > > on a different note though, perchance will the fourth or fifth series > > of libre cards support 8gb of ram or more? > > > > I bet you could even get it to 16gb if you wanted... though that > > wouldn't be needed. heh. > > the cost of the RAM ICs to do that are insane. the 1GB DDR3x16 ICs > are already $10 **EACH**. > > normally a DIMM would have 8 or 16 RAM ICs, meaning that for a 4GB > DIMM you need 8x 512mb ICs, or you could do 8GB by using 16 of them. But that would mean that an 8GiB stick for a desktop would cost $80 just for the ICs. I can find 8GiB of RAM for $60 and cheaper, I bet, if I poked my nose around. Or maybe desktops don't need ICs??? > normally you get 2 (matched) DIMMS totalling 8GB. > > if you want *32* GB you get 2 matched DIMMs, but nobody in > "mass-production" is shipping windows PCs or laptops with 32GB of RAM > (and if they are it's DDR4) You write that as though being dismissive of DDR4. Why is DDR4 currently unacceptable for one of your designs? > additionally, it would need either 2 pairs of x32 DDR RAM > controllers, or it would be necessary to do a cascade layout: a > daisy-chain of RAM ICs.... and i'm not sure it would be possible to > fit 8 RAM ICs onto the 43x78mm PCB anyway. > > bottom line it's far too expensive and quite impractical. 4GB is the > practical limit at the moment and even that's stupidly expensive > relatively speaking. > > l. Well, I bought a 4GiB RK3399 SOC card fro firefly for $200. Don't get me wrong, I love your effort, but I need RAM, CPU power, lots of ports, and more screen landscape. Hmm, maybe you should invent an OpenSource IC? Sincerely, David From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Mon May 8 04:40:32 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 23:40:32 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: I very strongly second both suggested readings, if only because I have both (including the complete set of Narnia books), have read both, and find them to be examples of some of the best fiction writing known to mankind. I would be somewhat less of a person if I had not read those, I think. With regard to the Narnia series -- the books were written and published out of order. See here --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Narnia#Reading_order (I recommend the "Harper Collins order" of reading the books, as referred to in the linked article.) *The Phantom Tollbooth*, I will warn you, is a "Young Adult" novel -- read it anyways, it's a wonderful story and a wonderful book. I can also recommend some of Brian Jacques' earlier works (the *Redwall* series of novels) -- I should warn you that the later ones get *very* predictable -- my favorite from his would have to be *The Bellmaker*. By the way -- if you're into sci-fi -- I could do far, far worse than to recommend *Coyote* by Alan Steele and *Eternity Road* by Jack McDevitt. *Coyote* is about colonizing another world -- but it's far more (pardon me) "down to earth" in how things work out, both in terms of character development and technology, than, say, *Star Trek*. *Eternity Road* is a post-apocalyptic book -- one of only two, honestly, I've really met that I've enjoyed (the other is called *The Rock* -- referring to Ayers Rock in Austraila, which is all I'll say about the plot) -- although I have to say I can't really recommend any of Jack McDevitt's other works. They... I dunno, they just don't 'click' for me, you know? If fantasy is more your thing, there's Anne McCaffrey's *Pern* series -- I loved those books when I was in high school. Absolutely ate them up. It's sort of a sci-fi/fantasy fusion sort of a setting, but it works quite nicely... I'll not explain what I mean by that, though, because that spoils major parts of the plot in one of the books... Of course, I would also be quite remiss in failing to recommend the first three books in what Wiki wants me to believe is in fact a quintet -- Madeleine L'Engle's *A Wrinkle In Time*, followed by *A Wind in the Door* and *A Swiftly Tilting Planet*. (I have neither read nor even heard of, the two books that are supposed to go after those three, titled *Many Waters* and *An Acceptable Time* -- so I can't speak to those. Sorry.) ...you can probably tell already, but books and reading are valued things in my family... books are amazing things. They can -- if you let them -- take you all sorts of wonderful and strange places... I'm happy to recommend even more if you're interested -- shoot me an email with a topic or fiction genre and I'll gladly see what I can recommend. (I should note that I habitually stay away from horror and similar material at all cost, though, so if that's your thing, I can't really help.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 8 05:45:36 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 05:45:36 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap wrote: > > > On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: >> All software for the mali-t860 is open source? none. MALI is proprietary. From doark at mail.com Mon May 8 02:34:00 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 21:34:00 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170507213400.66188b02@ulgy_thing> I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. On Thu, 4 May 2017 17:13:23 +0200 "mike.valk at gmail.com" wrote: > > 2017-05-04 9:04 GMT+02:00 John Luke Gibson : > > > Since it seems like a trivially simple task that for some reason no > > one has taken up, I would like to take the opportunity to exercise a > > learning experience and simultaneously benefit the community, by > > liberating PocketCHIP by deblobbing the source and re-compiling. > > > > The PocketCHIP is powered by their SoM: > http://linux-sunxi.org/NextThingCo_CHIP > > That is apparently a Allwinner R8 pared with an external rtl8723bs > Wifi/BT chip. > > The R8 is a rebranded A13. What? I own one of those and I'm almost certain that the CPU is an A7. Let's boot the PocketCHIP up... The processor is detected as an A7. I'll attach the output, it would probably be interesting to see all of it... Done, it's compressed bzip2 since it's ~300KiB decompressed which is large for an email. Unless your saying that the WiFi has a built in ARM R8 (Why)? which would really surprise me considering how large the processor chip is compared with the WiFi chip. > If you look at > https://getchip.com/pages/chip > > You'll see: > On the left image the RAM (Hynix) and Wifi+BT (Realtek) and Power module > (Allwinner AXP209) > On the right the SoC (R8/A13) and NAND (Samsung) > > The A13 does not need blob's to run anymore, the WiFi+BT chip does. > AFAIKT > > Display output needs some checking in Linux and U-boot mainline. But > most should be available or somewhat easily hacked in. > > GPU needs a BLOB which does not work on mainline AFAIKT. Luc Verhaegen > did get quite far before he burned out. You're not giving us enough details. Who is Verhaegen? What did he burn out on? When I first considered purchasing a PocketCHiP I read about the GPU not having 3D capabilities because of a binary blob. So, the CHIP folks hired (I think it was an extended goal of the kickstarter campaign), a kernel dev to add support to the Linux kernel for the GPU. I was going to mention this on this list before, but it's been so active... Sincerely, David -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tmp.txt.bz2 Type: application/x-bzip Size: 28716 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 8 06:15:10 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 06:15:10 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] first prototype microdesktop casework In-Reply-To: <20170507210703.01e9f2b8@ulgy_thing> References: <20170507210703.01e9f2b8@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 2:07 AM, wrote: > I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. > > On Sat, 29 Apr 2017 12:42:29 +0100 > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> >> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> wrote: >> > http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/micro_desktop/news/ >> >> ok, ouch, onto the fourth revision of the corner-pieces already, and >> some minor changes to the plywood are needed as well. this really >> would have been awkward if someone else did it. >> >> the anycubic 3d printer is holding up well. the higher-quality PLA >> from the company i found on aliexpress seems reasonable so far (the >> "standard" quality definitely isn't: it literally crumbles under >> pressure). > > > Luke, (I can call you Luke, since you sign your name that way, right?) > PLA stands for Poly-Lactic-Acid and if they are selling you something > else you can complain, if not sue for false advertising. That's why we > label things, so that we know what they are, right? So one PLA aught to > be the same as any other. Aluminum is aluminum, titanium is titanium, why > is PLA not PLA? it's partly down to where the lactic acid comes from: like any chemistry you get a different yield and a totally different composition depending on the process, the purity and the ingredients. most companies use corn for the raw materials, and they don't process (purify) it properly. the result is that the PLA gives off acrid fumes, deforms under pressure, does not adhere properly (to itself... which is kinda important) and is generally completely fucking useless for well... everything to do with 3D printing. > I own a Reach3D printer. It's an all aluminum housing and z axis gear > printer. I'm still in the construction phase, but if me and my caliper > (it's auto-calibrating but I want it perfect :) work well together then I > should be printing sometime around the 21st. I could help you with my > printer at limited expense (unless something big happens in my life :) :) > Also, I bought on Amazon 2 spools of PLA and one of PC. The PLA cost ~$20 > per KG while the PC was ~$30. ok, i'd like you to do a test. take a small piece about 5cm long and bend it very very fast, as quickly as you can, making the loop as small as you can (8mm or less if you can). good PLA will snap. shit-quality PLA will discolour, going light-coloured. another test - a really really important one - is to make a long rectangle (35mm high x 5mm x 10mm would probably do) - the height is important - then clamp one end to a desk. on the other end suspend a weight tied with string as close to the end as possible. make the weight... let's say.... 0.5kg or so. not very much. now leave it for a month. good quality PLA will be ok, and when you take the weight off the shape will be retained shit quality PLA will snap any time within hours to weeks, and when you take the weight off you'll find it's bent. that amazon PLA you bought i can guarantee will be shit quality. > It seems to me that you might be better off > with PC if finding a good PLA supplier and making a case that is not > flimsy with PLA is such a problem. faberdashery's PLA is extremely strong. it actually has better rigidity than PETG. PC requires a higher temperature and has less available colours as it's not so common for 3D printing. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 8 06:24:08 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 06:24:08 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: <20170507230044.0be0a2c2@ulgy_thing> References: <20170507230044.0be0a2c2@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:00 AM, David Niklas wrote: > I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. not a problem david > Links? http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/libre_riscv/ >> > important to avoid, because mixed analog and digital is incredibly >> > hard to get right. also note that things like HDMI, SATA, and even >> > ethernet are quite deliberately NOT on the list. Ethernet RMII (which >> > is digital) could be implemented in software using a minion core. the >> > advantage of using the opencores VGA (actually LCD) controller is: i >> > already have the full source for a *complete* linux driver. > > Considering that analog was around *long* before digital I'm surprised > that it is "Hard to get right", analog isn't "hard". digital isn't "hard". specifically *MIXING* them is ultra-hard. > is there a reason for this? completely different processes and design criteria. the restrictions (design rules) placed on digital ASIC layouts have to be adhered to in the *analog* areas: you can't just change the stack to suit the analog areas. i don't know the full details, but i know someone with 30 years experience of working with ASICs who does. > Isn't there a chip for just this kind of thing? no. not a custom one... and we're taking custom ASICs. >> > I2C, SPI, SD/MMC, UART, EINT and GPIO - all of these can be >> > software-programmed as bit-banging in the minion cores. >> > >> > these interfaces, amazingly, are enough to do an SoC that, if put into >> > 40nm, would easily compete with some of TI's offerings, as well as the >> > Allwinner R8 (aka A13). >> > >> > i've also managed to get alliance and coriolis2 compiled on >> > debian/testing (took a while) so it *might* not be necessary even to > Hmm, I can't seem to google that piece of SW. Do you have a link? https://soc-extras.lip6.fr/en/coriolis/coriolis2-users-guide/ https://soc-extras.lip6.fr/en/alliance-abstract-en/ >> > pay for the ASIC design tooling (the cost of which is insane). >> > coriolis2 includes a reasonable auto-router. i still have yet to go >> > through the tutorials to see how it works. for design rules: 90nm >> > design rules (stacks etc.) are actually publicly available, which >> > would potentially mean that a clock rate of at least 300mhz would be >> > achievable: interestingly 800mhz DDR3 RAM from 2012 used 90nm >> > geometry. 65 down to 40nm would be much more preferable but may be >> > hard to get. > > How would you get it in the first place? > Is there a company dedicated to larger than industry standard (nm) > silicon production for small businesses, or are you planning to buy a ... > what would it be called? ... printed wafer producer? not confirmed that yet. there are some standards that can be adhered to which apparently make the choice of foundry irrelevant. still lots to do here. > What about Vulkan? that sounds like software. underlying hardware would be the same. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 8 06:30:18 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 06:30:18 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] The open risc v idea is good In-Reply-To: <20170507210750.77b8aede@ulgy_thing> References: <20170507210750.77b8aede@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 2:07 AM, wrote: >> normally a DIMM would have 8 or 16 RAM ICs, meaning that for a 4GB >> DIMM you need 8x 512mb ICs, or you could do 8GB by using 16 of them. > > But that would mean that an 8GiB stick for a desktop would cost $80 just > for the ICs. I can find 8GiB of RAM for $60 and cheaper, I bet, if I > poked my nose around. mass-volume pricing (1m units and above) is radically different from low to mid-volume pricing (1-10k). > Or maybe desktops don't need ICs??? desktops take DIMMs, not individual ICs. >> normally you get 2 (matched) DIMMS totalling 8GB. >> >> if you want *32* GB you get 2 matched DIMMs, but nobody in >> "mass-production" is shipping windows PCs or laptops with 32GB of RAM >> (and if they are it's DDR4) > You write that as though being dismissive of DDR4. where did you get that impression? > Why is DDR4 currently > unacceptable for one of your designs? where did you get the impression that i used any words which imply "unacceptability"? no it's much simpler than you imagined: there simply aren't any ***ACCESSIBLE*** SoCs which have DDR4... yet. "accessible" is defined according to the selection criteria listed here: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/picking-a-processor > Hmm, maybe you should invent an OpenSource IC? that's what the libre-riscv initiative is about. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 8 06:35:51 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 06:35:51 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <20170507213400.66188b02@ulgy_thing> References: <20170507213400.66188b02@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 2:34 AM, wrote: > You're not giving us enough details. Who is Verhaegen? What did he burn > out on? http://libv.livejournal.com/ the fact that he's not under NDA has led to large corporations - including ARM - to enact slander campaigns against him, and blackmail campaigns against companies that fund him. > When I first considered purchasing a PocketCHiP I read about the GPU > not having 3D capabilities because of a binary blob. So, the CHIP folks > hired (I think it was an extended goal of the kickstarter campaign), a > kernel dev to add support to the Linux kernel for the GPU. it will have been for the "shim" that permits the proprietary userspace library direct access to the MALI hardware. l. From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Mon May 8 07:48:09 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 09:48:09 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: <9500A652-147D-463B-BE4E-DA6C24E50C1F@gmail.com> Message-ID: The 9590 cards are PCIe hope this helps http://www.neobits.com/compex_wle350nx_7b0000_compex_wle350nx_p9420581.html https://wikidevi.com/files/datasheets/compex/WLE350NX_DSv1.0.7.pdf and http://www.oxfordtec.com/us/airetos-aex-ar9590-ni.html http://www.airetos.com/products/aex-ar9590-ni/ On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Allan Mwenda > wrote: > > Is msata okay? I know its sold as Compex msata cards > > http://www.electronicdesign.com/memory/what-s-difference- > between-mpcie-and-msata > > answer: no. you specifically want a PCIe SSD. > > l. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.valk at gmail.com Mon May 8 08:42:36 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 09:42:36 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: <20170507162606.4b5fdf54@ulgy_thing> References: <20170507162606.4b5fdf54@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: 2017-05-07 22:26 GMT+02:00 : > I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. > > On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:58:57 +0100 > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > > > On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:47 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com > > wrote: > > > > > If you're trying to trans-code something that you don't have a > > > co-processor/module for you're forced to CPU/GPU trans-coding. > > > > you may be misunderstanding: the usual way to interact with a GPU is > > to use a memory buffer, drop some data in it, tell the GPU (again via > > a memory location) "here, get on with it" - basically a > > hardware-version of an API - and it goes an executes its *OWN* > > instructions, completely independently and absolutely nothing to do > > with the CPU. > > > > there's no "transcoding" involved because they share the same memory > > bus. > > > > > Would a FPGA > > > still be more power huns gry then? > > > > yes. > > > > > I think/hope FPGA's are more efficient for specific tasks then > > > CPU/GPU's > > > > you wouldn't give a general-purpose task to an FPGA, and you wouldn't > > give a specialist task for which they're not suited to a CPU, GPU _or_ > > an FPGA: you'd give it to a custom piece of silicon. > > I always thought that FPGA's were good for prototyping or small fast > tasks... But that's just how I learned about them. > Don't think of what you were thought. Think of what you can do which has not been thought. The world outside the box is bigger than the on inside the box ;-) > > > in the case where you have something that falls outside of the custom > > silicon (a newer CODEC for example) then yes, an FPGA would *possibly* > > help... if and only if you have enough bandwidth. > > > > video is RIDICULOUSLY bandwidth-hungry. 1920x1080 @ 60fps 32bpp > > is... an insane data-rate. it's 470 MEGABYTES per second. that's > > what the framebuffer has to handle, so you not only have to have the > > HDMI (or other video) PHY capable of handling that but the CODEC > > hardware has to be able to *write* - simultaneously - on the exact > > same memory bus. > > > > Your number seemed off to me so I did the math: > 1920*1080*60*4 == > 497,664,000 > You're off by almost 30 MiB. > 497,664,000 ~= 498 MB (Units of 1000) 497,664,000 ~= 475 MiB (Units of 1024) > Most video cameras (that I've been able to locate), do 24bpp, 640x480 at > 30fps, so that would make the bandwidth requirements. > 27,648,000 > I was specifically hinting at decoding. That's the most used function. But encoding should these days also be capable of FullHD > Which should be more reasonable for an FPGA (not that I have all the > specs sitting in front of me, mind you). > I am assuming that "encoding video" means encoding from a video camera or > a small youtube video as opposed to encoding to send to a device over, > say, an HDMI cable. > The problem is that the FPGA has to be very big or very fast. FPGA are, apparently, not very fast thus they need to be big. Bandwith x speed. The'res not enough space. > > > > > > We can always have evolution create a efficient decoder ;-) > > > https://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits/ > > > > > Sincerely, > David > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pablo at parobalth.org Mon May 8 09:34:40 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 10:34:40 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <20170507213400.66188b02@ulgy_thing> References: <20170507213400.66188b02@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170508083440.GA7033@pabbook> > > The R8 is a rebranded A13. > What? I own one of those and I'm almost certain that the CPU is an A7. > Let's boot the PocketCHIP up... > The processor is detected as an A7. > I'll attach the output, it would probably be interesting to see all of > it... > Done, it's compressed bzip2 since it's ~300KiB decompressed which is large > for an email. You could have pasted the relevant parts right into your email. This was the only relevant section I could find in your output: cpu.1: cpuinfo ----- /proc/cpuinfo ----- processor : 0 model name : ARMv7 Processor rev 2 (v7l) ARMv7 is the architecture. I did not find "A7" in a relevant context in your output. Have a look at: https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/chip-engineering-programming-links-photos/270 'A13 Specifications Brief (Allwinner states R8 is a "1GHz A13 Compatible SoC (System on Chip)"' and: http://linux-sunxi.org/Allwinner_SoC_Family http://linux-sunxi.org/R8 Pablo From mike.valk at gmail.com Mon May 8 09:36:28 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 10:36:28 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <20170507213400.66188b02@ulgy_thing> References: <20170507213400.66188b02@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: 2017-05-08 3:34 GMT+02:00 : > I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. > > On Thu, 4 May 2017 17:13:23 +0200 > "mike.valk at gmail.com" wrote: > > > > 2017-05-04 9:04 GMT+02:00 John Luke Gibson : > > > > > Since it seems like a trivially simple task that for some reason no > > > one has taken up, I would like to take the opportunity to exercise a > > > learning experience and simultaneously benefit the community, by > > > liberating PocketCHIP by deblobbing the source and re-compiling. > > > > > > > The PocketCHIP is powered by their SoM: > > http://linux-sunxi.org/NextThingCo_CHIP > > > > That is apparently a Allwinner R8 pared with an external rtl8723bs > > Wifi/BT chip. > > > > The R8 is a rebranded A13. > What? I own one of those and I'm almost certain that the CPU is an A7. > Let's boot the PocketCHIP up... > The processor is detected as an A7. > It should be a Cortex-A8. http://linux-sunxi.org/Allwinner_SoC_Family The new chip GR8, which is specific SoC for NextThingCo, seems to be an "sun5i" as well. Also a slightly modified A13 I guess. The're seems to but mainline support for it. Icenowy Zheng has addid it I think. But the'res no wiki page fo it. http://linux-sunxi.org/Linux_mainlining_effort http://linux-sunxi.org/GR8 > I'll attach the output, it would probably be interesting to see all of > it... > Done, it's compressed bzip2 since it's ~300KiB decompressed which is large > for an email. > Use pastebin or sorts. Or just cut out the specifica part. > Unless your saying that the WiFi has a built in ARM R8 (Why)? which would > really surprise me considering how large the processor chip is compared > with the WiFi chip. > I'm not saying that at all.The SoC is indeed the biggest IC. And the WiFi is on the other side of the PCB. A blue piece of PCB. next the NXP209. WiFi chips are very small. from https://getchip.com/pages/chip: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1065/9514/t/28/assets/chipAllSidesView.png?9186386361907538453 > You're not giving us enough details. Who is Verhaegen? What did he burn > out on? > When I first considered purchasing a PocketCHiP I read about the GPU > not having 3D capabilities because of a binary blob. So, the CHIP folks > hired (I think it was an extended goal of the kickstarter campaign), a > kernel dev to add support to the Linux kernel for the GPU. That did not happen. The're is no Opensource linux driver for MALI. NTC hardly involves itself with the linux-sunxi community. Their website is hardly obvious to the software needs of running their hardware. How hard can it be.... "To use our hardware you have two options: Our BSP which has closed source drivers, but you have full utilization of the hardware. Or use the mainline kernel with some restrictions" And state your involvement in freeing the hardware or not. NTC website is just one big selling machine. > I was going to > mention this on this list before, but it's been so active... > > Sincerely, > David > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vkontogpls at gmail.com Mon May 8 09:59:41 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 11:59:41 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: I chuckled when reading your message doark. This is pretty much the story of my life and my greatest fear, that is my mind degrading for whatever reason and become unable to understand or interact with the world intelligently ans have no way to defend myself against this degration. Im in my 20s and I already think of what I'll probalby never do in my life that I really want to do( such as programming and going to space to satisfy my curiosity). I have come to the same conclusions as you said about the logic gap of atheism and the meaning of life is the one question that I prefer to give the simplest answer to: just live to learn. I have read The Chronicles of Narnia when I was a little kid( all 7 of them) and I read them again a couple years ago for nostalgia reasons and wow are these books deeper than they look like. On May 8, 2017 6:02 AM, wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. > > On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 14:27:00 +0000 > Lyberta wrote: > > > > Christopher Havel: > > > @ Lyberta -- I'll just say that I don't think it's any healthier to be > > > wanting to kill other people than it is to be wanting to kill > > > yourself. Somehow that doesn't fit my definition of 'normal'. But > > > that's me -- and I don't want to, you know, tell you how to think. > > > Not my job. So I'll drop this for now, except to say that pills can > > > do you a world of good if you let them. > > > > This is a humane execution. They turn you into a vegetable and other > > people think you are awake, but you are asleep, you have no coherent > > thoughts. I have gained 40 kgs under antipsychotics and now I have > > problems standing up and sitting down, I have low blood pressure, my > > knees hurt a lot, I can barely walk anymore. I'm just a lump of fat now. > > Lump of fat that waits for the world to kill it. > > @ Lyberta, > I've been thinking a lot about what you wrote, what I'm about to write > could be totally wrong, but if I'm right it would lead to a cure for you. > I'm not a psychiatrist, but I do know what a request for help from anyone, > anyone at all, looks like. > I suspect that you might be more intelligent than people give you credit > for. I suspect that you're caught in the ultimate trap, weather you > realize it consciously it or not. You see, when philosophers first > removed God from their philosophies they are tasked then with trying to > find a purpose to life. As others on this list pointed out becoming a > homicidal maniac is pointless, but as the aforementioned philosophers > found, the universe will eventually end and all that is, or was, or could > be, or could have been will cease to exist. They were thus confounded in > the question that never has been answered by atheists. That would be, > "When should I die." and more generally, "What is the point of it > all." > I've seen many people caught in this trap, perhaps without knowing it. > They start off as fun people capable of much, as they age they realize > what they have not done, and what they are not and probably will never > be. They then try things like suicide, or boasting, and thus they loose > those qualities which draw others to them if not their life as well. > > I think you're caught in the same trap, unable to realize your own > potential for lack of a moral standard (it also suffers as a result of > an Atheistic philosophy), and unable to accept a pointless existence. > > You see, Killing others would be something (you describe laughing at > them and being rid of them), and killing yourself would cause you to no > longer think about your problems. So my theory would at least satisfy > both of your, ahem, ravings, in as much as it would point to a root cause > of both. > > I said above that "I suspect that you might be more intelligent than > people give you credit for," and here is what I mean. If you can reason > that far, even subconsciously, then you have gotten farther then most in > as much as you realize the lack of adequate solutions. Put another way, > you are way up there with the very best Atheistic minds. > Now I could easily go on, but I think that I'll leave you with a > hopefully clearer understanding of what is bothering you. As Mr. Havel > pointed out, I don't intend to tell you how to think, and ultimately, more > people are cured everyday of mentally related problems by their own minds > then drugs, or what others tell them. Think about it, panic, too much and > a person can't function, too little and they are lackadaisical. Or fear, > or pain, or love (I'm talking emotional attraction), or well, anything. > > In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is eyeopening, > insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world around you, as > opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. This would at least > give you lots of interesting and worthwhile things to think about IMHO > and it would be something that even a vegetable could do :) > I'd suggest "The Chronicles of Narnia" by C.S. Lewis and "The phantom > Toll Both" by Norton Juster. > It is from "The Chronicles of Narnia" that we get the quote "Oh my > mistress do not by any means destroy yourself, for if you live you may yet > have good fortune, but all the dead are dead alike!" > > The very best, > David > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEL2N7+xWmVOJDQxWGm3XCrhg2YP8FAlkPgs4ACgkQm3XCrhg2 > YP9kaxAA58VjxuBdopWgK2Po9nyUfXZmCtv3bq8fL7JoGD8/bQ0aLk9JpvtNm6J4 > ZOIjtJzcz8Kdfap3v3ry6CwqXqY7yYnzFkLuCqVLxER7+WXe1F7fOlgupq+GGZAb > nwgqoObJJbQR/TD3SKgUHJ3/tPykb2jWN9Kqorgr97DserqRG8hIOgqFN4pKo+8o > bDxqKUpGzRIcSX6k3edt6G0I0aJTPwQVW6kegN3BEvOj3PlGByrg2mhWUPZXF4Da > A9aQKAUfEJyyqjboeILi1MlIg9CJJjEpImCqvre19Y6b0s203D+epVn3sqCZcYTo > MS/uYRk87GKU0zq15WO1lmNtprptXmDGob3YrI8CjocEUpgxqeZ9hwXniDnXHt2C > zo6odx40sn283k/8lPA+Tfsc8CdhAs5b4QkNQtkRnZjFxJPaUe4diBhfWPyJHA4+ > GhxFeC9Lpgh7ftAMAJfRRDuOqQ7juUHSmbJmulvUwf55sAzA4miP9qdrvR9zDIIz > 8goJDinuU1IwTlDCjiGUDE3RMdHeNxwLoI2wtqsOErSJJunkd6zxUq/gy+1wZljd > uvMAZpqy5ni6gc8+Ck5D7DFSl4WFfR/LbwTjoTY7Mii+2ipkbU+dQgm0IiFPmJIZ > Beink0Hv7kBga1aAz5xe7/IdeG0kH0GXUn+/W2uEV27EuG4sWQ8= > =BlCA > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vkontogpls at gmail.com Mon May 8 10:02:12 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 12:02:12 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think arm has open source kernel drivers but there is no way they will get mainlined any time soon. The question is, how much does the userland blob do and how much work needs to be done to get libre 2d accel. On May 8, 2017 7:47 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap wrote: > > > > > > On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > >> All software for the mali-t860 is open source? > > none. MALI is proprietary. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 8 10:11:24 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 10:11:24 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > I think arm has open source kernel drivers but there is no way they will get > mainlined any time soon. The question is, how much does the userland blob do everything. the open source kernel "driver" cannot actually be called a "driver" at all. it is nothing more than a gateway to the actual hardware. peripherals on ARM are memory-mapped: the "driver" simply provides access to the shared memory region (plus maybe handles some interrupts). this is a constant source of confusion with people believing that just because the "shim" has been released, somehow magically it's all okay. l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Mon May 8 10:14:50 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 12:14:50 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <20170507213400.66188b02@ulgy_thing> References: <20170507213400.66188b02@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: Verhaegen is one of those selected individuals who had the luxury of getting all the shit of the world thrown at their face for trying to do the right thing. He was one of the leaders in pushing amd into mainlining gpu drivers( which they have been successful to and keep working on) and got shit for that. He attempted to reverse engineer the arm mali drivers( look up lima driver) and he succeeded to some extend, then he run out of money becaue nobody was willing to help him and arm has put significant effort into destroying his life. The nda a company has to sign for getting the mali drivers requires 0 interaction with his work, therefor no company can hire him now. On May 8, 2017 8:02 AM, wrote: > I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. > > On Thu, 4 May 2017 17:13:23 +0200 > "mike.valk at gmail.com" wrote: > > > > 2017-05-04 9:04 GMT+02:00 John Luke Gibson : > > > > > Since it seems like a trivially simple task that for some reason no > > > one has taken up, I would like to take the opportunity to exercise a > > > learning experience and simultaneously benefit the community, by > > > liberating PocketCHIP by deblobbing the source and re-compiling. > > > > > > > The PocketCHIP is powered by their SoM: > > http://linux-sunxi.org/NextThingCo_CHIP > > > > That is apparently a Allwinner R8 pared with an external rtl8723bs > > Wifi/BT chip. > > > > The R8 is a rebranded A13. > What? I own one of those and I'm almost certain that the CPU is an A7. > Let's boot the PocketCHIP up... > The processor is detected as an A7. > I'll attach the output, it would probably be interesting to see all of > it... > Done, it's compressed bzip2 since it's ~300KiB decompressed which is large > for an email. > > > > Unless your saying that the WiFi has a built in ARM R8 (Why)? which would > really surprise me considering how large the processor chip is compared > with the WiFi chip. > > > > If you look at > > https://getchip.com/pages/chip > > > > You'll see: > > On the left image the RAM (Hynix) and Wifi+BT (Realtek) and Power module > > (Allwinner AXP209) > > On the right the SoC (R8/A13) and NAND (Samsung) > > > > The A13 does not need blob's to run anymore, the WiFi+BT chip does. > > AFAIKT > > > > Display output needs some checking in Linux and U-boot mainline. But > > most should be available or somewhat easily hacked in. > > > > GPU needs a BLOB which does not work on mainline AFAIKT. Luc Verhaegen > > did get quite far before he burned out. > > > You're not giving us enough details. Who is Verhaegen? What did he burn > out on? > When I first considered purchasing a PocketCHiP I read about the GPU > not having 3D capabilities because of a binary blob. So, the CHIP folks > hired (I think it was an extended goal of the kickstarter campaign), a > kernel dev to add support to the Linux kernel for the GPU. I was going to > mention this on this list before, but it's been so active... > > Sincerely, > David > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vkontogpls at gmail.com Mon May 8 10:18:13 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 12:18:13 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, here they are https://developer.arm.com/products/software/mali-drivers/midgard-kernel On May 8, 2017 12:02 PM, "Bill Kontos" wrote: > I think arm has open source kernel drivers but there is no way they will > get mainlined any time soon. The question is, how much does the userland > blob do and how much work needs to be done to get libre 2d accel. > On May 8, 2017 7:47 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" > wrote: > >> --- >> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >> >> >> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap wrote: >> > >> > >> > On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: >> >> All software for the mali-t860 is open source? >> >> none. MALI is proprietary. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vkontogpls at gmail.com Mon May 8 10:20:56 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 12:20:56 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So do these drivers provide registers etc ? How much extra effort is required to get 2d accel with a clean room userland driver ? If we can do that and also get rasterisers working we can have a fully functional gnu/linux desktop futureproofed with wayland support. Also could we reuse that multimedia decoding engine from the a20 ? On May 8, 2017 12:13 PM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > > I think arm has open source kernel drivers but there is no way they will > get > > mainlined any time soon. The question is, how much does the userland > blob do > > everything. the open source kernel "driver" cannot actually be > called a "driver" at all. it is nothing more than a gateway to the > actual hardware. peripherals on ARM are memory-mapped: the "driver" > simply provides access to the shared memory region (plus maybe handles > some interrupts). > > this is a constant source of confusion with people believing that > just because the "shim" has been released, somehow magically it's all > okay. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.valk at gmail.com Mon May 8 13:54:08 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 14:54:08 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-05-08 11:02 GMT+02:00 Bill Kontos : > I think arm has open source kernel drivers but there is no way they will > get mainlined any time soon. The question is, how much does the userland > blob do and how much work needs to be done to get libre 2d accel. > A display pipeline is a complex one which requires multiple drivers. Especially on ARM devices where the display pipeline is a "mix and match" one. So ARM has released a "driver". What type of driver? What functions does it have? Is it one for their display encoder, a crtc driver? A framebuffer driver? A clasic DRM driver, A KMS driver? A 2D Accelerator for X? A 3D accelator. A shim to acces the hardware using a BLOB build for one specific version of X relying and kernel on a specific ARM Core design? Probably the last. And ARM specific driver without sources is worthless. It's use once and only for short time. SoC with ARM desing are mix and match. Different ARM core designs. Different and mixed GPU's MALI, Vivante, PowerVR, etc. Output (CRTC etc) from all type of different vendors ARM, Designware, etc. Most of the time the manufacture is not disclosed. If you look at Allwinner. The community now has two display engine drivers. The drivers only setup output and change video modes. GPU type is MALI. Bealebone has TI SoC for which a KMS/DRM driver was written by Rob clark, tilcdc, which has support for a NXP HDMI controller/encoder. It also has a 2d accelerator from vivante and a 3d accelatror from Imation(powerVR). With the recent release of the etnaviv driver the BB community wrote a patch to have 2d acceleration. Etnaviv and Freedreno had a hard time being included into the Linux projects because of their mix and match nature. A single driver was impossible. I've once had bought an Atom mini laptop (Dell Mini 1010). Which I explicitly bought because of the most powerful Intel ATOM GPU at the time. Intel has a reasonable Opensource GPU track record. Poulsbo turned out to be an Imation PowerVR licenced design. Boy was I misled: no opensource drivers only blob's compatible with aging and broken kernels and X-servers. So no upgrades for me or anyone else. So a perfectly capable laptop to the trash. Intel did release a Opensource driver. A KMS driver. So that means modesetting and nothing more. No 2d acceleration no 3d acceleration nog hardware video decoding. Intel could not build anything better because Imation did not let them. The Intel engineer said that there was enough code and documentation available to create decoder though. But he didn't write it. This is way closed source drivers a bad idea. They limit the use and lifetime of your devices. I guess the company's building those GPU are too scared that if they open their drives their competitors see the copyright and/or patent infringement their design has. And ARM and Imation are scared the most. Thankfully Imation is going to die soon. Apple has announced to create their own GPU. and rob Imation from 60% of their income. Imation anounced a patent war agains Apple. SCO Unix anyone? > On May 8, 2017 7:47 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" > wrote: > >> --- >> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >> >> >> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap wrote: >> > >> > >> > On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: >> >> All software for the mali-t860 is open source? >> >> none. MALI is proprietary. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 8 14:04:45 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 14:04:45 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:54 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > I guess the company's building those GPU are too scared that if they open > their drives their competitors see the copyright and/or patent infringement > their design has. eexactly. the "big boys" - nvidia, intel, amd - are the ones less adversely affected, because their patent portfolio is larger and more well-established i.e. has precedence. the "upstarts" are the embedded GPU designers, who, yeah, exactly as you say, will have almost certainly been infringing various patents. > Thankfully Imation is going to die soon. Apple has announced to create their > own GPU. and rob Imation from 60% of their income. Imation anounced a patent > war agains Apple. ... except somebody forgot to tell their CEO that the patents they were expecting to bludgeon apple with... have expired. someone at apple was paying attention, whilst imgtec wasn't. i want to laugh quite a lot... but it would be unkind to do so, and, additionally, this is far from over. > SCO Unix anyone? looking forward to it. it's about time. we _have_ told them again and again l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Mon May 8 15:39:17 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 17:39:17 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Imagination is far from dead yet. They did a mistake when they based all of their gpu income on apple, but their ip is rather advanced. Also on the plus side there has been discussion about them open sourcing their drivers a few months back and afterwards they hired new developers. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually saw this coming and reacted before it happened. On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 3:54 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > > > 2017-05-08 11:02 GMT+02:00 Bill Kontos : > >> I think arm has open source kernel drivers but there is no way they will >> get mainlined any time soon. The question is, how much does the userland >> blob do and how much work needs to be done to get libre 2d accel. >> > A display pipeline is a complex one which requires multiple drivers. > Especially on ARM devices where the display pipeline is a "mix and match" > one. > > So ARM has released a "driver". What type of driver? What functions does > it have? > > Is it one for their display encoder, a crtc driver? A framebuffer driver? > A clasic DRM driver, A KMS driver? A 2D Accelerator for X? A 3D accelator. > A shim to acces the hardware using a BLOB build for one specific version of > X relying and kernel on a specific ARM Core design? Probably the last. > > And ARM specific driver without sources is worthless. It's use once and > only for short time. > > SoC with ARM desing are mix and match. Different ARM core designs. > Different and mixed GPU's MALI, Vivante, PowerVR, etc. Output (CRTC etc) > from all type of different vendors ARM, Designware, etc. Most of the time > the manufacture is not disclosed. > > If you look at Allwinner. The community now has two display engine > drivers. The drivers only setup output and change video modes. GPU type is > MALI. > > Bealebone has TI SoC for which a KMS/DRM driver was written by Rob clark, > tilcdc, which has support for a NXP HDMI controller/encoder. It also has a > 2d accelerator from vivante and a 3d accelatror from Imation(powerVR). > > With the recent release of the etnaviv driver the BB community wrote a > patch to have 2d acceleration. > > Etnaviv and Freedreno had a hard time being included into the Linux > projects because of their mix and match nature. A single driver was > impossible. > > I've once had bought an Atom mini laptop (Dell Mini 1010). Which I > explicitly bought because of the most powerful Intel ATOM GPU at the time. > Intel has a reasonable Opensource GPU track record. Poulsbo turned out to > be an Imation PowerVR licenced design. Boy was I misled: no opensource > drivers only blob's compatible with aging and broken kernels and X-servers. > So no upgrades for me or anyone else. > > So a perfectly capable laptop to the trash. > > Intel did release a Opensource driver. A KMS driver. So that means > modesetting and nothing more. No 2d acceleration no 3d acceleration nog > hardware video decoding. Intel could not build anything better because > Imation did not let them. The Intel engineer said that there was enough > code and documentation available to create decoder though. But he didn't > write it. > > This is way closed source drivers a bad idea. They limit the use and > lifetime of your devices. > > I guess the company's building those GPU are too scared that if they open > their drives their competitors see the copyright and/or patent infringement > their design has. > > And ARM and Imation are scared the most. > > Thankfully Imation is going to die soon. Apple has announced to create > their own GPU. and rob Imation from 60% of their income. Imation anounced a > patent war agains Apple. SCO Unix anyone? > > > >> On May 8, 2017 7:47 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" >> wrote: >> >>> --- >>> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: >>> >> All software for the mali-t860 is open source? >>> >>> none. MALI is proprietary. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >>> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >>> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk >> > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cand at gmx.com Mon May 8 15:52:45 2017 From: cand at gmx.com (Lauri Kasanen) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 17:52:45 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170508175245.5ae80be79196acd99d3c74ca@gmx.com> On Mon, 8 May 2017 17:39:17 +0300 Bill Kontos wrote: > Imagination is far from dead yet. They did a mistake when they based all of > their gpu income on apple, but their ip is rather advanced. Also on the > plus side there has been discussion about them open sourcing their drivers > a few months back and afterwards they hired new developers. I wouldn't be > surprised if they actually saw this coming and reacted before it happened. They're openly considering selling MIPS, as well as other parts of them. That goes against knowing things would go this way. - Lauri From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Mon May 8 16:23:40 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 11:23:40 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP Message-ID: Is it common to do something like this against a person? -------- Original Message -------- From: Bill Kontos Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Linux on small ARM machines Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 12:14:50 +0300 > Verhaegen is one of those selected individuals who had the luxury of getting all the shit of the world thrown at their face for trying to do the right thing. He was one of the leaders in pushing amd into mainlining gpu drivers( which they have been successful to and keep working on) and got shit for that. He attempted to reverse engineer the arm mali drivers( look up lima driver) and he succeeded to some extend, then he run out of money becaue nobody was willing to help him and arm has put significant effort into destroying his life. The nda a company has to sign for getting the mali drivers requires 0 interaction with his work, therefor no company can hire him now. > > On May 8, 2017 8:02 AM, wrote: > > > > I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a week. > > > > On Thu, 4 May 2017 17:13:23 +0200 > > "mike.valk at gmail.com" wrote: > > > > > > 2017-05-04 9:04 GMT+02:00 John Luke Gibson : > > > > > > > Since it seems like a trivially simple task that for some reason no > > > > one has taken up, I would like to take the opportunity to exercise a > > > > learning experience and simultaneously benefit the community, by > > > > liberating PocketCHIP by deblobbing the source and re-compiling. > > > > > > > > > > The PocketCHIP is powered by their SoM: > > > http://linux-sunxi.org/NextThingCo_CHIP > > > > > > That is apparently a Allwinner R8 pared with an external rtl8723bs > > > Wifi/BT chip. > > > > > > The R8 is a rebranded A13. > > What? I own one of those and I'm almost certain that the CPU is an A7. > > Let's boot the PocketCHIP up... > > The processor is detected as an A7. > > I'll attach the output, it would probably be interesting to see all of > > it... > > Done, it's compressed bzip2 since it's ~300KiB decompressed which is large > > for an email. > > > > > > > > Unless your saying that the WiFi has a built in ARM R8 (Why)? which would > > really surprise me considering how large the processor chip is compared > > with the WiFi chip. > > > > > > > If you look at > > > https://getchip.com/pages/chip > > > > > > You'll see: > > > On the left image the RAM (Hynix) and Wifi+BT (Realtek) and Power module > > > (Allwinner AXP209) > > > On the right the SoC (R8/A13) and NAND (Samsung) > > > > > > The A13 does not need blob's to run anymore, the WiFi+BT chip does. > > > AFAIKT > > > > > > Display output needs some checking in Linux and U-boot mainline. But > > > most should be available or somewhat easily hacked in. > > > > > > GPU needs a BLOB which does not work on mainline AFAIKT. Luc Verhaegen > > > did get quite far before he burned out. > > > > > > You're not giving us enough details. Who is Verhaegen? What did he burn > > out on? > > When I first considered purchasing a PocketCHiP I read about the GPU > > not having 3D capabilities because of a binary blob. So, the CHIP folks > > hired (I think it was an extended goal of the kickstarter campaign), a > > kernel dev to add support to the Linux kernel for the GPU. I was going to > > mention this on this list before, but it's been so active... > > > > Sincerely, > > David > > > > _______________________________________________ > > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > From mike.valk at gmail.com Mon May 8 16:26:17 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 17:26:17 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-05-08 16:39 GMT+02:00 Bill Kontos : Please don't top post. Gmail has inline capability. > Imagination is far from dead yet. They did a mistake when they based all > of their gpu income on apple, but their ip is rather advanced. > ImgTec income is going to be cut by 60%. That's not something most companies can survive. Their plan is to sue Apple for using of their IP and forcing them te keep paying royalties. To fund that they are selling of vital parts, like the recently aquired MIPS. , to fund the legal fees and supplement their loss of income. Apple will stall, they have the money to do so, and probably force them to trial. In trail ImgTec is forced to disclose publicly what they think belongs to them. Which they will be reluctant to do because then the other GPU manufactures might be able file suits for infringement to ImgTec. Hence my reference to the SCO suit against Linux users. Which ultimately failed and killed the company. The same issue for them is they open up their driver sources. All GPU manufactures are bound to infringement because sometimes things are invented twice or more at different places. Which makes sense when you're trying to reach the same goal with the same means and knowledge. If only they'd sit around and say let's all open up our drivers and not sue each other for current design and start over from there. I'll be surprised if they'll survive this. Apple has probably tried to buy and failed so they move to kill. This is join us or die tactics. And Apple has more money thus is able to strike harder and longer. Also on the plus side there has been discussion about them open sourcing > their drivers a few months back and afterwards they hired new developers. I > wouldn't be surprised if they actually saw this coming and reacted before > it happened. > ImgTec has been holding that bone for our noses for years. Ten to be exact Poulsbo dates from 2007. I don't believe it until it's proven. So if I'd place a bet to 1. ImgTec releasing sources 2. ImgTec dying from Apple lawsuit I'd place on the second one. Their selling long term part for short term money for a lost cause. The only winning parties here are going to be the lawyers just like with SCO. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Mon May 8 16:27:28 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 11:27:28 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Message-ID: Best knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be reverse engineered. What in regard of the latest mali gpus? If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered? -------- Original Message -------- From: Lauri Kasanen Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Linux on small ARM machines Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 17:52:45 +0300 > On Mon, 8 May 2017 17:39:17 +0300 > Bill Kontos wrote: > > > Imagination is far from dead yet. They did a mistake when they based all of > > their gpu income on apple, but their ip is rather advanced. Also on the > > plus side there has been discussion about them open sourcing their drivers > > a few months back and afterwards they hired new developers. I wouldn't be > > surprised if they actually saw this coming and reacted before it happened. > > They're openly considering selling MIPS, as well as other parts of > them. That goes against knowing things would go this way. > > - Lauri > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From mike.valk at gmail.com Mon May 8 16:36:48 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 17:36:48 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't top post please 2017-05-08 17:23 GMT+02:00 : > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Bill Kontos > > > Verhaegen is one of those selected individuals who had the luxury of > getting all the shit of the world thrown at their face for trying to do the > right thing. He was one of the leaders in pushing amd into mainlining gpu > drivers( which they have been successful to and keep working on) and got > shit for that. He attempted to reverse engineer the arm mali drivers( look > up lima driver) and he succeeded to some extend, then he run out of money > becaue nobody was willing to help him and arm has put significant effort > into destroying his life. The nda a company has to sign for getting the > mali drivers requires 0 interaction with his work, therefor no company can > hire him now. > "Is it common to do something like this against a person?" No but not uncommon as well. Luc pressed were it hurts and Luc has a somewhat unfiltered personalty. Manager etc. usually have filtered personalities. Managers also usually people with little technical insight and need to rely in information from others, the lack of information makes for easier decision making is the though here. And usually those that talk smooth are easier to listen to than those with an sound opinion, those are usually spoken loudly and don't concur with the mainstream thoughts. ARM was afraid of lawsuits for infringement and loss of income by the details Luc might unveil on his RE quest. This is how politics and business works. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 8 16:38:22 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 16:38:22 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:23 PM, wrote: > Is it common to do something like this against a person? in the unethical business world? of course it is! mostly you don't get to hear about it, but software libre developers are different. they're not beholden to anyone, they're not corporate slaves, they're not controlled and they are entitled to speak their mind. consequently they get attacked. especially if some fucker deems that their "profit" is threatened. for example: there was some discussion back in 1999 as to whether microsoft would ever take out a contract on my life, when i was doing the reverse-engineering of NT domains. consequently i decided that the research that i was doing had best be presented responsibly to them as "security vulnerabilities", presented PRIVATELY to them (as a responsible security researcher does) and only later disclosing them if they didn't fix the problems in a reasonable timeframe. and that's why ISS hired me. the strategy that i deployed worked. one microsoft employee actually called ISS up asking them to fire me. ISS declined, pointing out that i was quite likely to get very pissed off, and would they prefer me inside pissing out or outside pissing in? they're absolutely right: i would have worked really really hard to release one devastating public zero-day security vulnerability - with full exploit code - every few days for several months, if they'd fucked with me. luc verhaegen unfortunately did not deploy this type of strategy (muddying the P.R. waters by leveraging the "responsible security disclosure" track). if he had, then he could reasonably claim that ARM (and other unethical companies) are being highly irresponsible in trying to attack him. the technology and security press would absolutely go to town on them (as we know has been done in the past when other independent security researchers get attacked). l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 8 16:43:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 16:43:07 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:27 PM, wrote: > Best knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be reverse engineered. > What in regard of the latest mali gpus? > If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered? yes. about $150k would do it. but the question is, really: what would happen if you did? and, what else could you do with the same money? well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own libre processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D graphics *without* paying anyone a cent. any company tries to claim patent royalties, all that happens is a search is made on their "claims", for anything similar that has prior art. if it's another company, guess what? we notify that other company and watch the fireworks... l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 8 18:51:21 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 18:51:21 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] first prototype microdesktop casework In-Reply-To: <20170507210703.01e9f2b8@ulgy_thing> References: <20170507210703.01e9f2b8@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 2:07 AM, wrote: > I own a Reach3D printer. It's an all aluminum housing and z axis gear > printer. I'm still in the construction phase, but if me and my caliper > (it's auto-calibrating but I want it perfect :) work well together then I > should be printing sometime around the 21st. I could help you with my > printer at limited expense (unless something big happens in my life :) one piece of advice: buy some printbite, stick it to the aluminium plate (after cleaning it - do follow PRECISELY the instructions for printbite installation). better, get a MK3 (aluminium) bed plate, because having a MK2 not in full contact with the aluminium is a pain (uneven heat distribution and transfer). i've currently stacked some cardboard underneath to make the MK2 stop bowing downwards... *sigh*... printbite will stop a world of pain in both making prints stick and also getting them off. but *read and follow the instructions*. l. From pablo at parobalth.org Mon May 8 21:17:54 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 22:17:54 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> Message-ID: <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 04:36:40PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Pablo wrote: > > > To flash your deblobbed image beware of the closed-source flashing tool for the Chrome browser and use the strange “Ubuntu virtual machine > > SDK solution”. I read somewhere that one NextThing developer flashes > > right from his Debian box but this way is not officially supported. > > jaezuss this kind of thing pisses me off. there is *NO NEED* for > proprietary tools with the A13 (R8), the A20 or any other allwinner > processor. I agree. Just to be sure I looked again if I can find the source of the Chrome browser extension. I only found this forum thread where "hippiehacker" searches for the source and gets no answer: https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/chip-flasher-on-github/5561/10 So it seems I have been correct and it is proprietary. >fex-boot has been in sunxi-tools for at least FOUR YEARS > since i helped hno and others with the USB-sniffing of the FEL > protocol. What I called the strange "Ubuntu virtual machine SDK solution" is documented here: https://docs.getchip.com/chip.html#installing-c-h-i-p-sdk Basically they recommend to install a huge virtual machine image to create a "level" playing field for all users and then use a bunch of shell-scripts called CHIP-tools to flash images from within the virtual machine. CHIP-tools require sunxi-tools: https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-tools So they use sunxi-tools but in a quite comlicated way. A documented and tested command-line solution for the major distributions would have been the way to go... Pablo From pablo at parobalth.org Mon May 8 21:25:42 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo) Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 22:25:42 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507213400.66188b02@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170508202541.GC7033@pabbook> On Mon, May 08, 2017 at 10:36:28AM +0200, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > Their website is hardly obvious to the software needs of running their > hardware. > > How hard can it be.... > > "To use our hardware you have two options: Our BSP which has closed source > drivers, but you have full utilization of the hardware. Or use the mainline > kernel with some restrictions" > > And state your involvement in freeing the hardware or not. > > NTC website is just one big selling machine. > Thank you Mike! The above statement quite nicely sums up my thoughts on this topic. Pablo From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Tue May 9 06:24:02 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Tue, 09 May 2017 08:24:02 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Quick give this man $150K for a libre CPU On 8 May 2017 18:43:07 GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:27 PM, wrote: >> Best knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be >reverse engineered. >> What in regard of the latest mali gpus? >> If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered? > > yes. about $150k would do it. but the question is, really: what >would happen if you did? and, what else could you do with the same >money? > > well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own libre >processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D graphics >*without* paying anyone a cent. any company tries to claim patent >royalties, all that happens is a search is made on their "claims", for >anything similar that has prior art. > > if it's another company, guess what? we notify that other company >and watch the fireworks... > >l. > >_______________________________________________ >arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vkontogpls at gmail.com Tue May 9 09:32:22 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 11:32:22 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now update to kernels newer than 3.x ? On Apr 16, 2017 12:19 PM, "zap" wrote: > Just one question, > > I am assuming since there will be internal sd cards that your replacing > one or both of the internal usbs? > > or am I wrong? > > By the way, I have a suggestion if you feel up to it, > > Debian 9 seems to be very close to stable, if you feel like it, and > anyone wants it, install it for them. > > Whenever I order it, probably that will be what I will want. Using > Debian 9 right now to be honest. It seems more stable then Debian 8 to me. > > just a thought. > > I wish you the best of luck, not that you will need it. :) > > Hoping you don't get sick again also, I am glad you will be sticking the > libre guidelines. Even if it is a pain > > in the butt to be putting it lightly I am sure. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lyberta at lyberta.net Tue May 9 09:45:00 2017 From: lyberta at lyberta.net (Lyberta) Date: Tue, 09 May 2017 08:45:00 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> doark at mail.com: > I think you're caught in the same trap, unable to realize your own > potential for lack of a moral standard (it also suffers as a result of > an Atheistic philosophy), and unable to accept a pointless existence. When I was 19, I was in a very bad situation. Everything I've ever believed in was false. So I've spent the next 6 months looking for truth. Thankfully, I have dropped out of college by this time so I had time to investigate. And in one moment it dawned upon me. There is no truth. Everything is relative. People invent their own truth and start believing in it. So if I want to stay unshackled I must not believe in anything. The next thing was supposed to be suicide but I couldn't do it. I don't know the future and I don't know what will happen when I die. In fact, I'm trapped inside my own consciousness and by definition can't escape it and see the truth. Remember Plato's allegory of the cave? Another thing that bugs me is, since I don't believe in anything, I also don't believe in science. I can't predict what's gonna happen in the next moment. Every once in a while I get in this state of mind where I understand that I understand nothing. > In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is eyeopening, > insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world around you, as > opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. I was forced to read books at school and this gave a huge hatred for them. I remember I've tried to read a fiction book at psychiatric hospital and after the 1st paragraph I was so enraged that I quickly put it away. Though this mostly applies to fiction. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 9 10:03:48 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 10:03:48 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:24 AM, Allan Mwenda wrote: > Quick give this man $150K for a libre CPU :) From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 9 10:05:25 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 10:05:25 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now > update to kernels newer than 3.x ? you can do anything you want to. however if you mean "are there any additional changes in the plans which are affected by NAND not being on-board" the answer is no. l. From pablo at parobalth.org Tue May 9 10:12:31 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 11:12:31 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: <20170509091231.GA5068@pabbook> On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 10:05:25AM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > > > Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now > > update to kernels newer than 3.x ? > > you can do anything you want to. however if you mean "are there any > additional changes in the plans which are affected by NAND not being > on-board" the answer is no. Understood. Luke, do you think the kernel bug could be related to NAND or do you guess another cause? Pablo From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 9 10:31:14 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 10:31:14 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: <20170509091231.GA5068@pabbook> References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> <20170509091231.GA5068@pabbook> Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Pablo wrote: > On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 10:05:25AM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: >> >> > Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now >> > update to kernels newer than 3.x ? >> >> you can do anything you want to. however if you mean "are there any >> additional changes in the plans which are affected by NAND not being >> on-board" the answer is no. > > Understood. > Luke, do you think the kernel bug could be related to NAND or do you > guess another cause? power instability due to not enough space in the layers to keep a reasonably solid power plane. l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Tue May 9 10:48:28 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 11:48:28 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: 2017-05-09 10:45 GMT+02:00 Lyberta : > doark at mail.com: > > I think you're caught in the same trap, unable to realize your own > > potential for lack of a moral standard (it also suffers as a result of > > an Atheistic philosophy), and unable to accept a pointless existence. > > When I was 19, I was in a very bad situation. Everything I've ever > believed in was false. So I've spent the next 6 months looking for > truth. Thankfully, I have dropped out of college by this time so I had > time to investigate. > > And in one moment it dawned upon me. There is no truth. Everything is > relative. People invent their own truth and start believing in it. So if > I want to stay unshackled I must not believe in anything. > There are many truths but non come close to reality. > > The next thing was supposed to be suicide but I couldn't do it. I don't > know the future and I don't know what will happen when I die. In fact, > I'm trapped inside my own consciousness and by definition can't escape > it and see the truth. Remember Plato's allegory of the cave? > > Another thing that bugs me is, since I don't believe in anything, I also > don't believe in science. I can't predict what's gonna happen in the > next moment. Every once in a while I get in this state of mind where I > understand that I understand nothing. > Believe that you are here. Your time here is brief. Enjoy it while you can. > > > In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is eyeopening, > > insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world around you, as > > opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. > > I was forced to read books at school and this gave a huge hatred for > them. I remember I've tried to read a fiction book at psychiatric > hospital and after the 1st paragraph I was so enraged that I quickly put > it away. Though this mostly applies to fiction. > You can't control anything but a small part of yourself. You do however have a choice. Not making a choice is a choice itself. The're is no thing in this world that you must but one thing: Undergo the results of your choice. Getting enraged by books is a choice. Don't get overwhelmed. When that happens you'll panic and reason will vacate your mind. You are allowed to believe in things that are not real. Science is not a fixed thing. It's an ever changing truth towards reality. http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm Religions mostly advocate absolute truth. There is no absolute truth. Sience is knowing that your viewing the universe through a keyhole and you are probably be wrong in your assessment of what you see. Accept that you'll need to base your choices on what you know now. You cannot make choices based on things you might come to know. Relax and live. It is worth your time. Don't anger yourself on ignorance of others. But don't think you are above another. We're all different. Be proud of it. This life might just be a test for the next. And the more/fuller you live the bigger your obstacles you must overcome. At least that's how I see it. > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 9 11:09:05 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 11:09:05 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 10:48 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > Science is not a fixed thing. It's an ever changing truth towards reality. there is one thing that i can caution against: permitting the victorian-era foundations on which science is based: the total and absolute rejection of "that which may be experienced" as being legitimate criteria for scientific enquiry and reasoning. the victorians championed "total objectivity" and it's caused an... unbelievable amount of damage to the western psyche, as the success of science in expanding the british empire (and others) was correlated with supporting the "objective methodology". if that isn't clear: try writing and submitting a paper to a peer-reviewed journal about the topic of consciousness in the human mind, and see how far it gets. l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Tue May 9 11:12:27 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 13:12:27 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Lyberta wrote: > doark at mail.com: > > > Another thing that bugs me is, since I don't believe in anything, I also > don't believe in science. I can't predict what's gonna happen in the > next moment. Every once in a while I get in this state of mind where I > understand that I understand nothing. > Nobody "believes" in science. The entire point of logically describing and explaining the world via the means of science is to get as close to "the truth" as you can. Accepting the results of scientists is unlike religion not a matter of absolute truth. It is a matter of realizing that for every given time the scientific answer accepted by the community is the closest one to "the truth" that we have. Understanding this is key to having a stable worldview while still being open-minded. The entire point of science is to constantly question the validity of your theories. > In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is eyeopening, > > insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world around you, as > > opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. > > I was forced to read books at school and this gave a huge hatred for > them. I remember I've tried to read a fiction book at psychiatric > hospital and after the 1st paragraph I was so enraged that I quickly put > it away. Though this mostly applies to fiction. > Not liking reading books means locking yourself out of all information on > the world. Since you seem like a smart person not having something to > occupy your brain with will make you suffer. So honestly you should get > over it for your own shake. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumblob at gmail.com Tue May 9 11:22:04 2017 From: dumblob at gmail.com (dumblob) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 12:22:04 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: <9500A652-147D-463B-BE4E-DA6C24E50C1F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Luke, I've spread the news about this router and got a positive feedback, but also a huge complaint, that on http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/router/news/ it says 5x 1Gbit PHY, but QCA9531 has only 5x 100Mbit PHY. In case the router will have just 100Mbit interfaces, then it doesn't make any sense to make such a router (nobody would be interested in it as it wouldn't add any value to the current routers as these are quite often very capable, with firmware being open-source and targetting the same price segment as the EOMA68 router). Keep going, -- Jan From mike.valk at gmail.com Tue May 9 11:33:59 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 12:33:59 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: 2017-05-09 11:48 GMT+02:00 mike.valk at gmail.com : > > > 2017-05-09 10:45 GMT+02:00 Lyberta : > >> doark at mail.com: >> > I think you're caught in the same trap, unable to realize your own >> > potential for lack of a moral standard (it also suffers as a result of >> > an Atheistic philosophy), and unable to accept a pointless existence. >> >> When I was 19, I was in a very bad situation. Everything I've ever >> believed in was false. So I've spent the next 6 months looking for >> truth. Thankfully, I have dropped out of college by this time so I had >> time to investigate. >> >> And in one moment it dawned upon me. There is no truth. Everything is >> relative. People invent their own truth and start believing in it. So if >> I want to stay unshackled I must not believe in anything. >> > > There are many truths but non come close to reality. > > >> >> The next thing was supposed to be suicide but I couldn't do it. I don't >> know the future and I don't know what will happen when I die. In fact, >> I'm trapped inside my own consciousness and by definition can't escape >> it and see the truth. Remember Plato's allegory of the cave? >> >> Another thing that bugs me is, since I don't believe in anything, I also >> don't believe in science. I can't predict what's gonna happen in the >> next moment. Every once in a while I get in this state of mind where I >> understand that I understand nothing. >> > > Believe that you are here. Your time here is brief. Enjoy it while you can. > > >> >> > In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is eyeopening, >> > insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world around you, as >> > opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. >> >> I was forced to read books at school and this gave a huge hatred for >> them. I remember I've tried to read a fiction book at psychiatric >> hospital and after the 1st paragraph I was so enraged that I quickly put >> it away. Though this mostly applies to fiction. >> > > You can't control anything but a small part of yourself. > > You do however have a choice. Not making a choice is a choice itself. > > The're is no thing in this world that you must but one thing: Undergo the > results of your choice. > > Getting enraged by books is a choice. > > Don't get overwhelmed. When that happens you'll panic and reason will > vacate your mind. > > You are allowed to believe in things that are not real. > > Science is not a fixed thing. It's an ever changing truth towards reality. > http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm > Found a more complete one: http://hermiene.net/essays-trans/relativity_of_wrong.html > > > Religions mostly advocate absolute truth. There is no absolute truth. > > Sience is knowing that your viewing the universe through a keyhole and you > are probably be wrong in your assessment of what you see. > > Accept that you'll need to base your choices on what you know now. You > cannot make choices based on things you might come to know. > > Relax and live. It is worth your time. Don't anger yourself on ignorance > of others. But don't think you are above another. We're all different. Be > proud of it. > > This life might just be a test for the next. And the more/fuller you live > the bigger your obstacles you must overcome. At least that's how I see it. > > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zapper at openmailbox.org Tue May 9 11:55:21 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 06:55:21 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: <1d4b2835-7ec8-fa7b-3726-ef1c9270aaeb@openmailbox.org> On 05/09/2017 04:32 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > > Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now > update to kernels newer than 3.x ? > Just a thought but I believe top posting annoys Luke. > On Apr 16, 2017 12:19 PM, "zap" > wrote: > > Just one question, > > I am assuming since there will be internal sd cards that your > replacing > one or both of the internal usbs? > > or am I wrong? > > By the way, I have a suggestion if you feel up to it, > > Debian 9 seems to be very close to stable, if you feel like it, and > anyone wants it, install it for them. > > Whenever I order it, probably that will be what I will want. Using > Debian 9 right now to be honest. It seems more stable then Debian > 8 to me. > > just a thought. > > I wish you the best of luck, not that you will need it. :) > > Hoping you don't get sick again also, I am glad you will be > sticking the > libre guidelines. Even if it is a pain > > in the butt to be putting it lightly I am sure. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 9 11:59:02 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 11:59:02 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: <9500A652-147D-463B-BE4E-DA6C24E50C1F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:22 AM, dumblob wrote: > Hi Luke, > > I've spread the news about this router and got a positive feedback, > but also a huge complaint, that on > http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/router/news/ it says 5x 1Gbit > PHY, but QCA9531 has only 5x 100Mbit PHY. ah, i didn't know that (and didn't check): i'll modify the page. > In case the router will have just 100Mbit interfaces, then it doesn't > make any sense to make such a router (nobody would be interested in it > as it wouldn't add any value to the current routers as these are quite > often very capable, with firmware being open-source and targetting the > same price segment as the EOMA68 router). ask them if they can get the firmware source for the WIFI module on those gigabit WIFI integrated routers. l. From zapper at openmailbox.org Tue May 9 12:12:55 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 07:12:55 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: On 05/09/2017 06:33 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > > > 2017-05-09 11:48 GMT+02:00 mike.valk at gmail.com > >: > > > > 2017-05-09 10:45 GMT+02:00 Lyberta >: > > doark at mail.com : > > I think you're caught in the same trap, unable to realize > your own > > potential for lack of a moral standard (it also suffers as a > result of > > an Atheistic philosophy), and unable to accept a pointless > existence. > > When I was 19, I was in a very bad situation. Everything I've ever > believed in was false. So I've spent the next 6 months looking for > truth. Thankfully, I have dropped out of college by this time > so I had > time to investigate. > > And in one moment it dawned upon me. There is no truth. > Everything is > relative. People invent their own truth and start believing in > it. So if > I want to stay unshackled I must not believe in anything. > > > There are many truths but non come close to reality. > > > > The next thing was supposed to be suicide but I couldn't do > it. I don't > know the future and I don't know what will happen when I die. > In fact, > I'm trapped inside my own consciousness and by definition > can't escape > it and see the truth. Remember Plato's allegory of the cave? > > Another thing that bugs me is, since I don't believe in > anything, I also > don't believe in science. I can't predict what's gonna happen > in the > next moment. Every once in a while I get in this state of mind > where I > understand that I understand nothing. > > > Believe that you are here. Your time here is brief. Enjoy it while > you can. > > > > > In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is > eyeopening, > > insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world around > you, as > > opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. > > I was forced to read books at school and this gave a huge > hatred for > them. I remember I've tried to read a fiction book at psychiatric > hospital and after the 1st paragraph I was so enraged that I > quickly put > it away. Though this mostly applies to fiction. > > > You can't control anything but a small part of yourself. > > You do however have a choice. Not making a choice is a choice itself. > > The're is no thing in this world that you must but one thing: > Undergo the results of your choice. > > Getting enraged by books is a choice. > > Don't get overwhelmed. When that happens you'll panic and reason > will vacate your mind. > > You are allowed to believe in things that are not real. > > Science is not a fixed thing. It's an ever changing truth towards > reality. > http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm > > > Found a more complete one: > http://hermiene.net/essays-trans/relativity_of_wrong.html > > > > > > Religions mostly advocate absolute truth. There is no absolute truth. > That I believe is an opinion, but the advice below is excellent. > > Sience is knowing that your viewing the universe through a keyhole > and you are probably be wrong in your assessment of what you see. > Except you spelled science wrong ;P just pointing out for fun. ;) > > Accept that you'll need to base your choices on what you know now. > You cannot make choices based on things you might come to know. > > Relax and live. It is worth your time. Don't anger yourself on > ignorance of others. But don't think you are above another. We're > all different. Be proud of it. > > This life might just be a test for the next. And the more/fuller > you live the bigger your obstacles you must overcome. At least > that's how I see it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists at sumpfralle.de Tue May 9 12:22:16 2017 From: lists at sumpfralle.de (Lars Kruse) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 13:22:16 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: <9500A652-147D-463B-BE4E-DA6C24E50C1F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170509132216.683877c9@erker.lan> Hi Jan, Am Tue, 9 May 2017 12:22:04 +0200 schrieb dumblob : > [..] > In case the router will have just 100Mbit interfaces, then it doesn't > make any sense to make such a router (nobody would be interested in it > as it wouldn't add any value to the current routers as these are quite > often very capable, with firmware being open-source and targetting the > same price segment as the EOMA68 router). This depends on your use case. I am part of a wireless community in northern Germany. The vast majority of our routers are Ubiquiti NS M5 or TP-Link CPE510 devices (outdoor wireless devices) with one or two 100 MBit/s ethernet ports. This was never a concern for our users, since the VPN that most of our members use, requires loads of CPU power. Thus more than 10 MBit/s are rarely seen. We were always looking for devices with a faster CPU, but these do not seem to exist within the price range of approximately 100 Euros. This is probably a quite a specific use case. Indoor users may well have a real need for gigabit router ports - I cannot tell. Cheers, Lars From zapper at openmailbox.org Tue May 9 12:30:30 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 07:30:30 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: On 05/09/2017 04:45 AM, Lyberta wrote: > doark at mail.com: >> I think you're caught in the same trap, unable to realize your own >> potential for lack of a moral standard (it also suffers as a result of >> an Atheistic philosophy), and unable to accept a pointless existence. > When I was 19, I was in a very bad situation. Everything I've ever > believed in was false. So I've spent the next 6 months looking for > truth. Thankfully, I have dropped out of college by this time so I had > time to investigate. > > And in one moment it dawned upon me. There is no truth. Everything is > relative. People invent their own truth and start believing in it. So if > I want to stay unshackled I must not believe in anything. > > The next thing was supposed to be suicide but I couldn't do it. I don't > know the future and I don't know what will happen when I die. In fact, > I'm trapped inside my own consciousness and by definition can't escape > it and see the truth. Remember Plato's allegory of the cave? > > Another thing that bugs me is, since I don't believe in anything, I also > don't believe in science. I can't predict what's gonna happen in the > next moment. Every once in a while I get in this state of mind where I > understand that I understand nothing. Your suffering needn't be endless. I don't normally say this especially on the internet, but God does love you and he only wants the best for you. He doesn't judge or condemn people will they live but he will try to convict us to rise higher. I don't know if your religious or not, but I am, and being truly religious means putting away worries and doing your best at living an abundant life of freedom and happiness. A good lesson I found was in this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y_AUsUmCEM But I suggest watching most of it, I say this because, you seem to be worrying too much. that isn't healthy whether you believe in religion or not. I used to live ln constant worry even as a Christian, but I had a false idea of religion and reason as well as certain people in the world. If you have no religious background and this annoys you, at least understand I am just trying to help. I once thought about doing myself in too. But I realize now that, it would have hurt many, many people in my life. As Bill said though, reason is important, but I will also add, God wants us to have reason as well. Anyways, seek help if needed, I hate to hear people suffer especially those who are good inside. >> In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is eyeopening, >> insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world around you, as >> opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. > I was forced to read books at school and this gave a huge hatred for > them. I remember I've tried to read a fiction book at psychiatric > hospital and after the 1st paragraph I was so enraged that I quickly put > it away. Though this mostly applies to fiction. I am not too fond of fiction books myself nowadays although my reasons were that there was so much treachery between relationships of romance... > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.valk at gmail.com Tue May 9 12:31:47 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 13:31:47 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: <1d4b2835-7ec8-fa7b-3726-ef1c9270aaeb@openmailbox.org> References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> <1d4b2835-7ec8-fa7b-3726-ef1c9270aaeb@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: 2017-05-09 12:55 GMT+02:00 zap : > > > On 05/09/2017 04:32 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > > Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now > update to kernels newer than 3.x ? > > > Just a thought but I believe top posting annoys Luke. > Bill didn't know how to post in-line. But we figured it out right Bill? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumblob at gmail.com Tue May 9 12:38:46 2017 From: dumblob at gmail.com (dumblob) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 13:38:46 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: <9500A652-147D-463B-BE4E-DA6C24E50C1F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Luke, > ask them if they can get the firmware source for the WIFI module on > those gigabit WIFI integrated routers. that's rather not possible as the spreading was done through a public announcement on a web site with tens of thousands of visitors daily. I can only change the announcement and read comments. I can't somehow "ask" them for an alternative. Anyway, do you know about any successor of QCA9531 ? I know about decent amount of deployments (matching the size, capabilities, and interfaces of such a "better" SOHO router) where 100Mbit is fine, but I know about way more deployments where 1Gbit is the point which separates the wheat from the chuff. Keep going, -- Jan From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 9 14:03:13 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 14:03:13 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > Nobody "believes" in science. sadly, they do. they're usually the ones who tell you that the climate's absolutely fine. > The entire point of logically describing and > explaining the world via the means of science is to get as close to "the > truth" as you can. Accepting the results of scientists is unlike religion > not a matter of absolute truth. It is a matter of realizing that for every > given time the scientific answer accepted by the community is the closest > one to "the truth" that we have. Understanding this is key to having a > stable worldview while still being open-minded. The entire point of science > is to constantly question the validity of your theories. ah. i'm glad you qualified this finally in the last sentence. the prior paragraphs give the impression that there *is* some form of "absolute certainty" that can be reached / experienced / perceived. whereas what is *actually* the case is that most of our lives - science or not - are an "approximation that seems to do the job for most use-cases". if we used the *actual* formula which *was* dead-accurate we'd go completely insane... or all be total geniuses. i'm reminded of a story that a friend told me, about an eminent scientist and mathematician friend. he told him the joke, "a bird flies between two trains that are on a collision course, at 60mph which start 120 miles apart. the bird turns around each time it reaches a train until finally it's squashed. how long does the bird fly for?" and after a couple of seconds his friend answered, "one hour!" so he asked, "you spotted that the time of the flight of the bird isn't relevant, you can just use the trains to work out that they'll meet in the middle, each travelling 60 miles, right?" and he replied, "oh no! i just did the sum of an infinite series in my head on the bird's travel flight between the trains". the usual example is the one about KE= 1/2 mv^2 being an approximation when v <<< c but i thought the above true story would be funnier. l. From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Tue May 9 14:08:56 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Tue, 09 May 2017 16:08:56 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: <9500A652-147D-463B-BE4E-DA6C24E50C1F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <60934102-BCB7-4937-ABA6-60C9122880CB@gmail.com> The cards i shared earlier are 450mbit i think. Fully libre too. I dont think you can get 1000 out of free firmware. The fastest would probably be the new broadcom AC wifi but that is a trap, the driver is libre, the firmware (which is neccesary) is not. Probably could be reverse engineered firmware-side but how hard that would be i don't know. On 9 May 2017 14:38:46 GMT+03:00, dumblob wrote: >Hi Luke, > >> ask them if they can get the firmware source for the WIFI module on >> those gigabit WIFI integrated routers. > >that's rather not possible as the spreading was done through a public >announcement on a web site with tens of thousands of visitors daily. I >can only change the announcement and read comments. I can't somehow >"ask" them for an alternative. > >Anyway, do you know about any successor of QCA9531 ? I know about >decent amount of deployments (matching the size, capabilities, and >interfaces of such a "better" SOHO router) where 100Mbit is fine, but >I know about way more deployments where 1Gbit is the point which >separates the wheat from the chuff. > >Keep going, > >-- Jan > >_______________________________________________ >arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 9 14:10:25 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 14:10:25 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: <1d4b2835-7ec8-fa7b-3726-ef1c9270aaeb@openmailbox.org> References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> <1d4b2835-7ec8-fa7b-3726-ef1c9270aaeb@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:55 AM, zap wrote: > Just a thought but I believe top posting annoys Luke. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting "Some believe that "top-posting" is appropriate for interpersonal e-mail, but inline posting should always be applied to threaded discussions such as newsgroups." blerk. ridiculous to be so pedantically politically correct. @begin sing-song voice "some people believe" @end sing-song voice it's quite simple: this is a list where topics are discussed in-depth. top-posting that breaks the context makes it REALLY hard for people to follow a complex or comprehensive discussion. making other people work harder at understanding and following isn't on. if however there is like a throw-away comment (more a personal discussion or just a quip / joke) then i'm happy to tolerate top-posting. generally i think people get it right, but if anyone feels that someone's made their lives awkward by breaking the context, PLEASE say so immediately. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 9 14:14:27 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 14:14:27 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: <9500A652-147D-463B-BE4E-DA6C24E50C1F@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 12:38 PM, dumblob wrote: > Hi Luke, > >> ask them if they can get the firmware source for the WIFI module on >> those gigabit WIFI integrated routers. > > that's rather not possible as the spreading was done through a public > announcement on a web site with tens of thousands of visitors daily. I > can only change the announcement and read comments. I can't somehow > "ask" them for an alternative. no problem - you know what i'm referring to, at least. > Anyway, do you know about any successor of QCA9531 ? i don't... but if it's from atheros it's almost certainly likely to have ath10k... which will no longer be libre. we've had a hard enough time even *finding* libre-compatible routers, let alone gigabit ones. > I know about > decent amount of deployments (matching the size, capabilities, and > interfaces of such a "better" SOHO router) where 100Mbit is fine, but > I know about way more deployments where 1Gbit is the point which > separates the wheat from the chuff. *sigh* yeahh i knoww.... From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 9 14:16:37 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 14:16:37 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: <60934102-BCB7-4937-ABA6-60C9122880CB@gmail.com> References: <9500A652-147D-463B-BE4E-DA6C24E50C1F@gmail.com> <60934102-BCB7-4937-ABA6-60C9122880CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 2:08 PM, Allan Mwenda wrote: > The cards i shared earlier are 450mbit i think. Fully libre too. I dont > think you can get 1000 out of free firmware. The fastest would probably be > the new broadcom AC wifi but that is a trap, the driver is libre, the > firmware (which is neccesary) is not. Probably could be reverse engineered > firmware-side but how hard that would be i don't know. it's not worth the effort. it often takes years and there's no guarantee of success. it's much easier to convince qualcomm (or mediatek) to just release the source code. chris from thinkpenguin walked the atheros team (right up to director level) through the process for the AR9271, and that took *two years* from start to finish. l. From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Tue May 9 14:34:22 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 09:34:22 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> <1d4b2835-7ec8-fa7b-3726-ef1c9270aaeb@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: <20170509133422.GC24296@topoi.pooq.com> On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 02:10:25PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > it's quite simple: this is a list where topics are discussed in-depth. > top-posting that breaks the context makes it REALLY hard for people to > follow a complex or comprehensive discussion. making other people > work harder at understanding and following isn't on. > > if however there is like a throw-away comment (more a personal > discussion or just a quip / joke) then i'm happy to tolerate > top-posting. > > generally i think people get it right, but if anyone feels that > someone's made their lives awkward by breaking the context, PLEASE say > so immediately. I normally in-line post, because that seems to be the most effective way to communicate in a complex situation, but I've found one exception: When the new text is not really a reply, but a framing comment intended to alter the context in which a previous messgae should be read. This is remarkably rare. -- hendrik From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Tue May 9 17:13:53 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 12:13:53 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Allan Mwenda Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Linux on small ARM machines , Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Date: Tue, 09 May 2017 08:24:02 +0300 > Quick give this man $150K for a libre CPU > > On 8 May 2017 18:43:07 GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:27 PM, wrote: > > > > > > Best knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be reverse engineered. > > > What in regard of the latest mali gpus? > > > If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered? > > > > yes. about $150k would do it. but the question is, really: what would happen if you did? and, what else could you do with the same money? well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own libre processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D graphics *without* paying anyone a cent. any company tries to claim patent royalties, all that happens is a search is made on their "claims", for anything similar that has prior art. if it's another company, guess what? we notify that other company and watch the fireworks... l. arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. How can you make an arm gpu for 150000usd? How would you use it? Would you put it additionally on a bord and not use the gpu located on the processor socket? If you reverse engineer the latest mali gpu, what you hold against it is, that when next version of an arm socket is for sale it will have a new mali gpu and require a new reverse engineering? Lets say 50000 people would buy the filrefly rk3399. Same people would pay 3eu each for reverse engineering the gpu. Then we would have a source code arm computer? It takes a lot of coordination to provide gnulinux distributions I assume. It is unfortunate people are not able to coordinate such that we can get source code hardware. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 9 17:26:58 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 17:26:58 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 5:13 PM, wrote: > How can you make an arm gpu for 150000usd? you don't. ARM is a registered trademark, and copying what they're doing is asking for trouble. instead you take one of the "open gpus" or parts of them and use that. there's several i've been tracking: MIAOW, Nyuzi, the ORSOC graphics accelerator - there's surprisingly quite a lot out there. > How would you use it? it would be on the same silicon, on the same memory bus as the RISC-V 64-bit core. anything else is too power-hungry. > Would you put it additionally on a bord and not use the gpu located on the processor socket? no. > If you reverse engineer the latest mali gpu, what you hold against it is, that when next version of an arm socket is for sale it will have a new mali gpu and require a new reverse engineering? correct. so whatever you get it's guaranteed to be "old". this is the sad fact of reverse-engineering: all that effort, with *no guarantee of success*.... just to get something that's years out-of-date. > Lets say 50000 people would buy the filrefly rk3399. Same people would pay 3eu each for reverse engineering the gpu. Then we would have a source code arm computer? no. ARM has acted so unethically in slandering luc verhaegen and blackmailing companies that pay him that i am not interested in supporting their business any more than is absolutely necessary. > It takes a lot of coordination to provide gnulinux distributions I assume. yes. a _lot_. however amazingly people are actually doing just that... even on risc-v where there isn't yet even any actual hardware. > It is unfortunate people are not able to coordinate such that we can get source code hardware. it's still quite a young area of focus. l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Tue May 9 17:55:12 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 19:55:12 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > > > Nobody "believes" in science. > > sadly, they do. they're usually the ones who tell you that the > climate's absolutely fine. > This contradicts itself. Science never said the climate was fine, it said we don't know if it's fine and then it said that it's not fine. Therefore those who claim that the climate is fine are neither believers nor supporters of science. > > > The entire point of logically describing and > > explaining the world via the means of science is to get as close to "the > > truth" as you can. Accepting the results of scientists is unlike religion > > not a matter of absolute truth. It is a matter of realizing that for > every > > given time the scientific answer accepted by the community is the closest > > one to "the truth" that we have. Understanding this is key to having a > > stable worldview while still being open-minded. The entire point of > science > > is to constantly question the validity of your theories. > > ah. i'm glad you qualified this finally in the last sentence. the > prior paragraphs give the impression that there *is* some form of > "absolute certainty" that can be reached / experienced / perceived. > > whereas what is *actually* the case is that most of our lives - > science or not - are an "approximation that seems to do the job for > most use-cases". > > if we used the *actual* formula which *was* dead-accurate we'd go > completely insane... or all be total geniuses. i'm reminded of a > story that a friend told me, about an eminent scientist and > mathematician friend. he told him the joke, "a bird flies between two > trains that are on a collision course, at 60mph which start 120 miles > apart. the bird turns around each time it reaches a train until > finally it's squashed. how long does the bird fly for?" > > and after a couple of seconds his friend answered, "one hour!" > > so he asked, "you spotted that the time of the flight of the bird > isn't relevant, you can just use the trains to work out that they'll > meet in the middle, each travelling 60 miles, right?" > > and he replied, "oh no! i just did the sum of an infinite series in > my head on the bird's travel flight between the trains". > > the usual example is the one about KE= 1/2 mv^2 being an > approximation when v <<< c but i thought the above true story would be > funnier. > > l. I tend to think of" the truth" as something that exists and is like a mathematical lim(x). All we can do is calculate closer and closer to it. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vkontogpls at gmail.com Tue May 9 18:03:45 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 20:03:45 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> <1d4b2835-7ec8-fa7b-3726-ef1c9270aaeb@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 2:31 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > > > 2017-05-09 12:55 GMT+02:00 zap : > >> >> >> On 05/09/2017 04:32 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: >> >> Something that crossed my mind, does the lack of flash mean we can now >> update to kernels newer than 3.x ? >> >> >> Just a thought but I believe top posting annoys Luke. >> > > Bill didn't know how to post in-line. But we figured it out right Bill? > > Indeed. I'm from the slack generation, not too used to mailing lists. I didn't realize I was breaking the flow. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 9 18:34:51 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 18:34:51 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> <1d4b2835-7ec8-fa7b-3726-ef1c9270aaeb@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > Indeed. I'm from the slack generation, ah so you've read their terms and conditions, then? and seen these news articles: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage > not too used to mailing lists. I > didn't realize I was breaking the flow. it's a different world. slack is designed to self-promote, to entrap and entice you by "encouraging" - forcing - interaction with glitz and glamour. likewise github: it's NOT about teamwork, it's about encouraging you to promote yourself above others, to compete for attention and glory... all the while getting information that can be sold about you whilst lying to you that they don't do anything of the sort. so in short: mailing lists are group communication minus the glamour, entrapment and promotion, but also without hard rules on formatting. so people need to set their own rules, and that's how netiquette formed. l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Tue May 9 19:23:16 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 21:23:16 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> <1d4b2835-7ec8-fa7b-3726-ef1c9270aaeb@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:34 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > > > Indeed. I'm from the slack generation, > > ah so you've read their terms and conditions, then? and seen these > news articles: > > https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the- > great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy > https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert- > mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage > > > not too used to mailing lists. I > > didn't realize I was breaking the flow. > Yup. It's still hilarious when I trap people into chatting with slackbot for half an hour before they realize it's a bot because I have programmed it very carefully exactly for this job and not for being informative. Anyway by slack I mean modern chat rooms in general. I use whatever everyone else that I need to work with knows how to use and there is nothing I can do about that. Unfortunately I'm working on a daily basis with people who can't figure out by themselves how to add a new power point slide, let alone understand what the crap is going on with the world. Most of them are smart but don't understand shit about technology. There is very little I can do about educating most of my surroundings, but I do try my best. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 9 19:45:25 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 19:45:25 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> <1d4b2835-7ec8-fa7b-3726-ef1c9270aaeb@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:23 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > Yup. It's still hilarious when I trap people into chatting with slackbot for > half an hour before they realize it's a bot because I have programmed it > very carefully exactly for this job and not for being informative. i love that :) > understand what the crap is going on with the world. Most of them are smart > but don't understand shit about technology. There is very little I can do > about educating most of my surroundings, but I do try my best. well, i admire and respect anyone who helps other people's lives to be better when it comes to technology. l. From ml.eoma68 at eml.cc Tue May 9 21:53:34 2017 From: ml.eoma68 at eml.cc (Vincent) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 22:53:34 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 card based on NXP i.MX7 (work in progress) Message-ID: Hi everybody, Since this is my first post on this list, please allow me to get off my chest a few things: - huge thanks to Luke for getting this project started - me = funding a PFY laptop, eagerly awaiting for it to arrive ;-) - me = working at a research institute, focused on hardware security As a private individual but also as at work, having an EOMA68 card based on an NXP i.MX7 would be very useful. It is a powerful processor with a heterogeneous architecture (2x A7, 1x M4) which makes it an interesting choice for energy-limited applications (M4 can turn off/on A7) and scenarios where safety/security are important (M4 can do real-time aside from workload on A7). The i.MX7 has many useful security features (crypto accelerators, high-assurance boot, TrustZone, etc.). An initial check with the EOMA68 infrastructure indicates compatibility. My personal goals with this are as follows: - Create an EOMA68 card with i.MX7 to complement my research (in fact, I simply need a good demo for the stuff I'm doing) - Provide the community an even better microprocessor card - Have a complex PCB project to learn along the way (I did PCB designs beforehand but never that complex) The project outline is roughly as follows: - 1 Use a phyBOARD-Zeta and a set of adapters to check compatibility of the i.MX7 and the EOMA68 infrastructure once the PFY laptop arrives [1] - 2 Create a PCMCIA-II card featuring the i.MX7 (goal: release as board + schematics to the public) - 3 Create a PCMCIA-III card protected with a high-security tamper-resistant enclosure that makes physical access improbable (I will not comment on this prior to publication as it is my research project), check for example [2] What would be of interest to me is the following: - How well the idea of having an i.MX7 card is received - How important the use of an open source CAD program is. I have access to Altium and have used it beforehand. However, KiCad has made significant progress since CERN is involved. Using KiCad would make it easier for the community to modify the board but since soldering these components by hand is impossible anyway, would there be any benefit in having freely accessible design files? - General interest in a tamper-resistant enclosure To make the development easier, it would be nice if Luke could provide us (the community) with: - proper drawings for the outline of his PCB - PCMCIA connector type/enclosure and height requirements of PCB - mechanical verification package (as order option on crowdsupply) to provide a "getting-you-started" package for EOMA68 card developers; possibly including: PCMCIA receptable, connector, enclosure, etc. Please let me know what you think. Also, please keep in mind that this is a kind of fun project for me at work and therefore the time I can spend on this is limited. Progress will be slow but I will be sending updates to the mailing list. Cheers, Vincent [1] http://www.phytec.eu/product/single-board-computer/phyboard-zeta/ [2] http://www.design-shift.com/orwl/ From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed May 10 00:00:56 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 19:00:56 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> Message-ID: On 5/8/17, Pablo wrote: > On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 04:36:40PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: >> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Pablo wrote: >> >> > To flash your deblobbed image beware of the closed-source flashing tool >> > for the Chrome browser and use the strange “Ubuntu virtual machine >> > SDK solution”. I read somewhere that one NextThing developer flashes >> > right from his Debian box but this way is not officially supported. >> >> jaezuss this kind of thing pisses me off. there is *NO NEED* for >> proprietary tools with the A13 (R8), the A20 or any other allwinner >> processor. > I agree. Just to be sure I looked again if I can find the source of the > Chrome browser extension. > I only found this forum thread where "hippiehacker" searches for the source > and gets no answer: > https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/chip-flasher-on-github/5561/10 > So it seems I have been correct and it is proprietary. > >>fex-boot has been in sunxi-tools for at least FOUR YEARS >> since i helped hno and others with the USB-sniffing of the FEL >> protocol. > What I called the strange "Ubuntu virtual machine SDK solution" is > documented here: > https://docs.getchip.com/chip.html#installing-c-h-i-p-sdk > Basically they recommend to install a huge virtual machine image to > create a "level" playing field for all users and then use a bunch of > shell-scripts called CHIP-tools to flash images from within the virtual > machine. > CHIP-tools require sunxi-tools: > https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-tools > > So they use sunxi-tools but in a quite comlicated way. > A documented and tested command-line solution for the major > distributions would have been the way to go... > > Pablo > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk Right now I'm looking at CHIP-buildroot. I'm planning on patching out any blobs and also anything not CHIP related (as we don't want a person to accidentally think the script will give them a blobless cubieboard or anything). I'm planning on posting the fork on notabug along with deblobbed forks to any repositories the script fetches from and modifying the script to pull from the blobless notabug repositories. So far I haven't found any hex files in their uboot, so my hunch is that the wifi driver is in the kernel and the chips won't need reflashing if that really truly is the only blob. Thanks for the links about flashing. While I haven't found any binary in uboot, I really don't like how often the source comments mention code specifically aimed at accommodating blobs, so even if their are no blobs I may still want to patch out some of the files that check for the presence of microcode, etc... You know, to make sure accidents don't happen. I'm not a programmer by trade, so I don't know if I'm speaking above my grade, but just looking at buildroot it looks like their is tons of glitched/typo'ed code in conditional if statements that look like they would never have any practical reason to run... Is this normal for open source code xD Like, the first file initiated by the main make file is support/setlocalversion which looks to just check a whole bunch of un-special variables which weren't set in the make script and had no opportunity to be set by any other files I know of (on my system the variables show as empty not having run anything from buildroot, but I can't imagine head would be set to such a specific git command on accident as the one it checks for). Then the if one of the conditions were some how filled, then all it does is print weird strings like this: printf '%s%s' -g $head Like this is the if statement: if head=`git rev-parse --verify --short HEAD 2>/dev/null` Mind you all this is printed to a variable in the make script called BR2_Version_Full which does nothing in the make script but get printed if a person asks the version, the script calls target-finalize or legal-info-prepare (which it looks like it does unconditionally in both cases). Like am I really that deep in over my head or does this script really have a bug where if someone sets head to some weird obscure git command it prints that very command in it's legal info? Like how does that happen that way on accident? It looks like it might serve some obscure purpose if it ran the command (which from I can tell with bash, setting some $(shell x) might do that, however the version string it should output doesn't seem very useful and just contributes to that endemic problem of shell outputs being incredibly hard to read for non-programmers, so I think I'll just delete the file in our fork (obviously it serves no purpose if this bug hasn't been noticed by now). If I'm already making a critical error here, please tell me and I'll reassess my use of the word trivial and computers xD https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-buildroot (I'm talking about support/scripts/setlocalversion) From benson.mitchell+arm-netbook at gmail.com Wed May 10 00:21:53 2017 From: benson.mitchell+arm-netbook at gmail.com (Benson Mitchell) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 19:21:53 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> Message-ID: On May 9, 2017 7:02 PM, "John Luke Gibson" wrote: Like, the first file initiated by the main make file is support/setlocalversion which looks to just check a whole bunch of un-special variables which weren't set in the make script and had no opportunity to be set by any other files I know of (on my system the variables show as empty not having run anything from buildroot, but I can't imagine head would be set to such a specific git command on accident as the one it checks for). Then the if one of the conditions were some how filled, then all it does is print weird strings like this: printf '%s%s' -g $head Like this is the if statement: if head=`git rev-parse --verify --short HEAD 2>/dev/null` That "=" is assignment, and those "`"s are output substitution. It tries executing that git command, storing the output in the shell variable head. If git succeeds (returns zero), the then clause is executed; if git fails (returns non-zero), the else clause (if present) is executed. Mind you all this is printed to a variable in the make script called BR2_Version_Full which does nothing in the make script but get printed if a person asks the version, the script calls target-finalize or legal-info-prepare (which it looks like it does unconditionally in both cases). Like am I really that deep in over my head Apparently, but that's how we learn, right? :) or does this script really have a bug where if someone sets head to some weird obscure git command it prints that very command in it's legal info? No. Like how does that happen that way on accident? It looks like it might serve some obscure purpose if it ran the command (which from I can tell with bash, setting some $(shell x) might do that, "$(foo)" and "`foo`" are essentially the same. They both run foo, and substitute the output. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsites at openmailbox.org Wed May 10 01:06:17 2017 From: jsites at openmailbox.org (Jeffrey Sites) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 17:06:17 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> Message-ID: <3FE812F6-9C01-496C-9415-A673241C250D@openmailbox.org> --- jasites > On May 9, 2017, at 16:00, John Luke Gibson wrote: > >> On 5/8/17, Pablo wrote: >> On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 04:36:40PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> wrote: >>> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Pablo wrote: >>> >>>> To flash your deblobbed image beware of the closed-source flashing tool >>>> for the Chrome browser and use the strange “Ubuntu virtual machine >>>> SDK solution”. I read somewhere that one NextThing developer flashes >>>> right from his Debian box but this way is not officially supported. >>> >>> jaezuss this kind of thing pisses me off. there is *NO NEED* for >>> proprietary tools with the A13 (R8), the A20 or any other allwinner >>> processor. >> I agree. Just to be sure I looked again if I can find the source of the >> Chrome browser extension. >> I only found this forum thread where "hippiehacker" searches for the source >> and gets no answer: >> https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/chip-flasher-on-github/5561/10 >> So it seems I have been correct and it is proprietary. >> >>> fex-boot has been in sunxi-tools for at least FOUR YEARS >>> since i helped hno and others with the USB-sniffing of the FEL >>> protocol. >> What I called the strange "Ubuntu virtual machine SDK solution" is >> documented here: >> https://docs.getchip.com/chip.html#installing-c-h-i-p-sdk >> Basically they recommend to install a huge virtual machine image to >> create a "level" playing field for all users and then use a bunch of >> shell-scripts called CHIP-tools to flash images from within the virtual >> machine. >> CHIP-tools require sunxi-tools: >> https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-tools >> >> So they use sunxi-tools but in a quite comlicated way. >> A documented and tested command-line solution for the major >> distributions would have been the way to go... >> >> Pablo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > Right now I'm looking at CHIP-buildroot. > I'm planning on patching out any blobs and also anything not CHIP > related (as we don't want a person to accidentally think the script > will give them a blobless cubieboard or anything). > Would it make sense to just add a target for C.H.I.P. to libreCMC in this case? I had been planning on doing that for a while but haven't had the time. > I'm planning on posting the fork on notabug along with deblobbed forks > to any repositories the script fetches from and modifying the script > to pull from the blobless notabug repositories. So far I haven't found > any hex files in their uboot, so my hunch is that the wifi driver is > in the kernel and the chips won't need reflashing if that really truly > is the only blob. Thanks for the links about flashing. While I haven't > found any binary in uboot, I really don't like how often the source > comments mention code specifically aimed at accommodating blobs, so > even if their are no blobs I may still want to patch out some of the > files that check for the presence of microcode, etc... You know, to > make sure accidents don't happen. > > I'm not a programmer by trade, so I don't know if I'm speaking above > my grade, but just looking at buildroot it looks like their is tons of > glitched/typo'ed code in conditional if statements that look like they > would never have any practical reason to run... Is this normal for > open source code xD > > Like, the first file initiated by the main make file is > support/setlocalversion which looks to just check a whole bunch of > un-special variables which weren't set in the make script and had no > opportunity to be set by any other files I know of (on my system the > variables show as empty not having run anything from buildroot, but I > can't imagine head would be set to such a specific git command on > accident as the one it checks for). Then the if one of the conditions > were some how filled, then all it does is print weird strings like > this: > > printf '%s%s' -g $head > > Like this is the if statement: > > if head=`git rev-parse --verify --short HEAD 2>/dev/null` > > Mind you all this is printed to a variable in the make script called > BR2_Version_Full which does nothing in the make script but get printed > if a person asks the version, the script calls target-finalize or > legal-info-prepare (which it looks like it does unconditionally in > both cases). Like am I really that deep in over my head or does this > script really have a bug where if someone sets head to some weird > obscure git command it prints that very command in it's legal info? > Like how does that happen that way on accident? It looks like it might > serve some obscure purpose if it ran the command (which from I can > tell with bash, setting some $(shell x) might do that, however the > version string it should output doesn't seem very useful and just > contributes to that endemic problem of shell outputs being incredibly > hard to read for non-programmers, so I think I'll just delete the file > in our fork (obviously it serves no purpose if this bug hasn't been > noticed by now). > > If I'm already making a critical error here, please tell me and I'll > reassess my use of the word trivial and computers xD > > https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-buildroot > (I'm talking about support/scripts/setlocalversion) > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed May 10 01:14:36 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 20:14:36 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: On 5/9/17, Lyberta wrote: > doark at mail.com: >> I think you're caught in the same trap, unable to realize your own >> potential for lack of a moral standard (it also suffers as a result of >> an Atheistic philosophy), and unable to accept a pointless existence. > > When I was 19, I was in a very bad situation. Everything I've ever > believed in was false. So I've spent the next 6 months looking for > truth. Thankfully, I have dropped out of college by this time so I had > time to investigate. > > And in one moment it dawned upon me. There is no truth. Everything is > relative. People invent their own truth and start believing in it. So if > I want to stay unshackled I must not believe in anything. > > The next thing was supposed to be suicide but I couldn't do it. I don't > know the future and I don't know what will happen when I die. In fact, > I'm trapped inside my own consciousness and by definition can't escape > it and see the truth. Remember Plato's allegory of the cave? > > Another thing that bugs me is, since I don't believe in anything, I also > don't believe in science. I can't predict what's gonna happen in the > next moment. Every once in a while I get in this state of mind where I > understand that I understand nothing. > >> In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is eyeopening, >> insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world around you, as >> opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. > > I was forced to read books at school and this gave a huge hatred for > them. I remember I've tried to read a fiction book at psychiatric > hospital and after the 1st paragraph I was so enraged that I quickly put > it away. Though this mostly applies to fiction. > > The mountains of religious thought pumped into this thread has it visibly oozing (I mean no offense). Firstly, the speaker in that video linked @zap I'm familiar with and is very unreliable when their claims are checked or researched. Secondly, Nietzsche explores that so-called "trap". The thing is that religion presents the concept of morality which fills the space created by ennui and lack of obstacles to self-preservation. Noam Chomsky popularized abit the thought that the consistent trend in nature is more intelligent species tend to go extinct after a shorter period than obviously less intelligent ones (i.e. beetles), this is due to genetic drift and inbred weaknesses due to a lack of obstacles to their survival. Ethics is an artificial obstacle we present ourselves in order to keep us strong (Nietzsche referred to the model used by Christianity as Slave Morality, suggesting that the ethics therein enslave the subscriber to the whims and desires of the less fortunate, and thusly purporting the existence of less fortunate as ENDEMICALLY NECESSARY because without less fortunate people then there would be point to the ethics of christianity and therefore there would be no obstacle to occupy ourselves with and therefore genetic drift would set in and we would die as a species. In other words, Nietzsche considered christianity so obsessed with compassion, that in a world without suffering it would utterly and completely fall apart.). Nietzsche's life's work was dedicated to attempting to create a well-developed replacement to both religion and "Slave Morality". I don't know if I support Nietzsche's alternative of "Master Morality" (where the obstacle is to become the best human possible, the so-called "ubermensch"), but I do say that "trap" is hardly a "trap" rather it's just a human need for an obstacle or conflict, and by rejecting religion all one is doing is rejecting the type of conflict which that religion endorses. Thirdly, ______ .................| -> vvvvvvvv ______ On the subject of Relativity: ______ .................| -> ^^^^^^^^^ ______ "The only rule is everything changes, even this rule." is the best misquoting of Heraclitus I've heard and has rather impacted my view of "Relativity". Ultimately building off of the concept that the meaning of life is just any arbitrary form of conflict, then sometimes constant values contribute to having an increased selection of types of conflict. Technology of modern day allows us to have simulated battles over the net, and, without a whole slew of discovered constants (such as ways of making the voltage across a wire consistent with what is intended to deliver a message), then that would not be possible. I believe the universe only stays as consistent as it needs to be for every life to have a potentially unique purpose given work to discover new constant attributes to apply to a new purpose to assume. I believe it is quite possible high-fantasy magic might have existed at one point and that it was merely purged by the work devoted to the infinitely more rigorous "science". That's just my perspective, and it is also my perspective that science could be replaced with high-enough degree of arbitrary work dedicated to discovering attributes of the universe incompatible with modern science. This would require a large influx of unfulfilled persons highly motivated to transform the status quo and contradict conventional wisdom. From petercarlson79 at gmail.com Wed May 10 01:52:25 2017 From: petercarlson79 at gmail.com (Peter Carlson) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 00:52:25 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: That was fun On Tue, May 9, 2017, 6:14 PM John Luke Gibson wrote: > On 5/9/17, Lyberta wrote: > > doark at mail.com: > >> I think you're caught in the same trap, unable to realize your own > >> potential for lack of a moral standard (it also suffers as a result of > >> an Atheistic philosophy), and unable to accept a pointless existence. > > > > When I was 19, I was in a very bad situation. Everything I've ever > > believed in was false. So I've spent the next 6 months looking for > > truth. Thankfully, I have dropped out of college by this time so I had > > time to investigate. > > > > And in one moment it dawned upon me. There is no truth. Everything is > > relative. People invent their own truth and start believing in it. So if > > I want to stay unshackled I must not believe in anything. > > > > The next thing was supposed to be suicide but I couldn't do it. I don't > > know the future and I don't know what will happen when I die. In fact, > > I'm trapped inside my own consciousness and by definition can't escape > > it and see the truth. Remember Plato's allegory of the cave? > > > > Another thing that bugs me is, since I don't believe in anything, I also > > don't believe in science. I can't predict what's gonna happen in the > > next moment. Every once in a while I get in this state of mind where I > > understand that I understand nothing. > > > >> In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is eyeopening, > >> insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world around you, as > >> opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. > > > > I was forced to read books at school and this gave a huge hatred for > > them. I remember I've tried to read a fiction book at psychiatric > > hospital and after the 1st paragraph I was so enraged that I quickly put > > it away. Though this mostly applies to fiction. > > > > > > The mountains of religious thought pumped into this thread has it > visibly oozing (I mean no offense). Firstly, the speaker in that video > linked @zap I'm familiar with and is very unreliable when their claims > are checked or researched. Secondly, Nietzsche explores that so-called > "trap". The thing is that religion presents the concept of morality > which fills the space created by ennui and lack of obstacles to > self-preservation. Noam Chomsky popularized abit the thought that the > consistent trend in nature is more intelligent species tend to go > extinct after a shorter period than obviously less intelligent ones > (i.e. beetles), this is due to genetic drift and inbred weaknesses due > to a lack of obstacles to their survival. Ethics is an artificial > obstacle we present ourselves in order to keep us strong (Nietzsche > referred to the model used by Christianity as Slave Morality, > suggesting that the ethics therein enslave the subscriber to the whims > and desires of the less fortunate, and thusly purporting the existence > of less fortunate as ENDEMICALLY NECESSARY because without less > fortunate people then there would be point to the ethics of > christianity and therefore there would be no obstacle to occupy > ourselves with and therefore genetic drift would set in and we would > die as a species. In other words, Nietzsche considered christianity so > obsessed with compassion, that in a world without suffering it would > utterly and completely fall apart.). > > Nietzsche's life's work was dedicated to attempting to create a > well-developed replacement to both religion and "Slave Morality". > > I don't know if I support Nietzsche's alternative of "Master Morality" > (where the obstacle is to become the best human possible, the > so-called "ubermensch"), but I do say that "trap" is hardly a "trap" > rather it's just a human need for an obstacle or conflict, and by > rejecting religion all one is doing is rejecting the type of conflict > which that religion endorses. > Thirdly, > ______ > > .................| -> vvvvvvvv > ______ > > On the subject of Relativity: > ______ > > .................| -> ^^^^^^^^^ > ______ > > "The only rule is everything changes, even this rule." is the best > misquoting of Heraclitus I've heard and has rather impacted my view of > "Relativity". Ultimately building off of the concept that the meaning > of life is just any arbitrary form of conflict, then sometimes > constant values contribute to having an increased selection of types > of conflict. Technology of modern day allows us to have simulated > battles over the net, and, without a whole slew of discovered > constants (such as ways of making the voltage across a wire consistent > with what is intended to deliver a message), then that would not be > possible. I believe the universe only stays as consistent as it needs > to be for every life to have a potentially unique purpose given work > to discover new constant attributes to apply to a new purpose to > assume. I believe it is quite possible high-fantasy magic might have > existed at one point and that it was merely purged by the work devoted > to the infinitely more rigorous "science". That's just my perspective, > and it is also my perspective that science could be replaced with > high-enough degree of arbitrary work dedicated to discovering > attributes of the universe incompatible with modern science. This > would require a large influx of unfulfilled persons highly motivated > to transform the status quo and contradict conventional wisdom. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed May 10 01:53:54 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 20:53:54 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> Message-ID: On 5/9/17, Benson Mitchell wrote: > On May 9, 2017 7:02 PM, "John Luke Gibson" wrote: > > Like, the first file initiated by the main make file is > support/setlocalversion which looks to just check a whole bunch of > un-special variables which weren't set in the make script and had no > opportunity to be set by any other files I know of (on my system the > variables show as empty not having run anything from buildroot, but I > can't imagine head would be set to such a specific git command on > accident as the one it checks for). Then the if one of the conditions > were some how filled, then all it does is print weird strings like > this: > > printf '%s%s' -g $head > > Like this is the if statement: > > if head=`git rev-parse --verify --short HEAD 2>/dev/null` > > That "=" is assignment, and those "`"s are output substitution. It tries > executing that git command, storing the output in the shell variable head. > If git succeeds (returns zero), the then clause is executed; if git fails > (returns non-zero), the else clause (if present) is executed. > > Mind you all this is printed to a variable in the make script called > BR2_Version_Full which does nothing in the make script but get printed > if a person asks the version, the script calls target-finalize or > legal-info-prepare (which it looks like it does unconditionally in > both cases). Like am I really that deep in over my head > > Apparently, but that's how we learn, right? :) > > or does this > script really have a bug where if someone sets head to some weird > obscure git command it prints that very command in it's legal info? > > No. > > Like how does that happen that way on accident? It looks like it might > serve some obscure purpose if it ran the command (which from I can > tell with bash, setting some $(shell x) might do that, > > "$(foo)" and "`foo`" are essentially the same. They both run foo, and > substitute the output. > I ran this in terminal and got this: john at john-ER922AA-ABA-SR1834NX-NA660:~/Documents/Code/OperationDaBlob/chip-buildroot+subsidiaries/CHIP-buildroot$ if head='git rev-parse --verify --short HEAD 2>/dev/null'; then > echo $head; > else > echo "failed"; > fi git rev-parse --verify --short HEAD 2>/dev/null john at john-ER922AA-ABA-SR1834NX-NA660:~/Documents/Code/OperationDaBlob/chip-buildroot+subsidiaries/CHIP-buildroot$ #!/bin/bash john at john-ER922AA-ABA-SR1834NX-NA660:~/Documents/Code/OperationDaBlob/chip-buildroot+subsidiaries/CHIP-buildroot$ # your code goes here john at john-ER922AA-ABA-SR1834NX-NA660:~/Documents/Code/OperationDaBlob/chip-buildroot+subsidiaries/CHIP-buildroot$ if head=$(git rev-parse --verify --short HEAD 2>/dev/null); then > echo $head; > else > echo "failed"; > fi b52c25c john at john-ER922AA-ABA-SR1834NX-NA660:~/Documents/Code/OperationDaBlob/chip-buildroot+subsidiaries/CHIP-buildroot$ So I do believe I found a bug, but I mixed up bash script and make script when posing $(shell x) as a solution which retains functionality. @Jeff, that would be a best if we were starting from scratch. The Chip community has put a lot into documentation and tutorials, so it might not be best to throw all that out for a new os. Debian's not bad. From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Wed May 10 02:14:59 2017 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 02:14:59 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Laptop Power Input? Message-ID: Not sure what the power input for laptop is? 5V i think but at how many amps? I seen 3A for the cpu card... So i guess a 2.4A usb power supply won’t be suitable? Cus if it will work well from 2.4A 5V input, then i was thinking of getting this usb power supply. 6port version, really nice, efficient : https://www.mymemory.co.uk/anker-powerport-6-2-4a-usb-desktop-charger-white.html From benson.mitchell+arm-netbook at gmail.com Wed May 10 03:12:53 2017 From: benson.mitchell+arm-netbook at gmail.com (Benson Mitchell) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 22:12:53 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> Message-ID: Seems like you're confusing back-quote (`) with single-quote ('), maybe? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zapper at openmailbox.org Wed May 10 03:13:31 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 22:13:31 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: <5034ae20-c316-0810-2884-68d28e6610c6@openmailbox.org> On 05/09/2017 08:14 PM, John Luke Gibson wrote: > On 5/9/17, Lyberta wrote: >> doark at mail.com: >>> I think you're caught in the same trap, unable to realize your own >>> potential for lack of a moral standard (it also suffers as a result of >>> an Atheistic philosophy), and unable to accept a pointless existence. >> When I was 19, I was in a very bad situation. Everything I've ever >> believed in was false. So I've spent the next 6 months looking for >> truth. Thankfully, I have dropped out of college by this time so I had >> time to investigate. >> >> And in one moment it dawned upon me. There is no truth. Everything is >> relative. People invent their own truth and start believing in it. So if >> I want to stay unshackled I must not believe in anything. >> >> The next thing was supposed to be suicide but I couldn't do it. I don't >> know the future and I don't know what will happen when I die. In fact, >> I'm trapped inside my own consciousness and by definition can't escape >> it and see the truth. Remember Plato's allegory of the cave? >> >> Another thing that bugs me is, since I don't believe in anything, I also >> don't believe in science. I can't predict what's gonna happen in the >> next moment. Every once in a while I get in this state of mind where I >> understand that I understand nothing. >> >>> In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is eyeopening, >>> insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world around you, as >>> opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. >> I was forced to read books at school and this gave a huge hatred for >> them. I remember I've tried to read a fiction book at psychiatric >> hospital and after the 1st paragraph I was so enraged that I quickly put >> it away. Though this mostly applies to fiction. >> >> > The mountains of religious thought pumped into this thread has it > visibly oozing (I mean no offense). Firstly, the speaker in that video > linked @zap I'm familiar with and is very unreliable when their claims > are checked or researched. Secondly, Nietzsche explores that so-called > "trap". The thing is that religion presents the concept of morality > which fills the space created by ennui and lack of obstacles to > self-preservation. Noam Chomsky popularized abit the thought that the > consistent trend in nature is more intelligent species tend to go > extinct after a shorter period than obviously less intelligent ones > (i.e. beetles), this is due to genetic drift and inbred weaknesses due > to a lack of obstacles to their survival. Ethics is an artificial > obstacle we present ourselves in order to keep us strong (Nietzsche > referred to the model used by Christianity as Slave Morality, > suggesting that the ethics therein enslave the subscriber to the whims > and desires of the less fortunate, and thusly purporting the existence > of less fortunate as ENDEMICALLY NECESSARY because without less > fortunate people then there would be point to the ethics of > christianity and therefore there would be no obstacle to occupy > ourselves with and therefore genetic drift would set in and we would > die as a species. In other words, Nietzsche considered christianity so > obsessed with compassion, that in a world without suffering it would > utterly and completely fall apart.). You can choose to think what you want, but for me it as relieved my suffering long term. I feel peace more than I ever used to, as a child I was an athiest. as a teenager I was agonstic and four years ago I was in fact the kind of christian you think all christians are... The fact of the matter is you have black and white thinking Saying all religion is conflict is to me like all science is good. Science after all is directly responsible for why climate change is happening. I know you may mean well, but please try reading the gospels of jesus' ministry before you claim to understand what is true and false. IF it helps to motivate you do it for a laugh, not that I agree with that, but he spoke out against the very things you are saying he supports. He wants nothing to do with conflict other than to heal the hurts of those who are suffering. By the way, I do not think I am unreliable. I think we just have a difference of opinion. I don't think all atheists are bad heck, who knows what will happen at the end of ones life, they could turn to christ. Hard to say, conversely, not all christians are good, mostly because some lie about who they are. You can find examples of both sides in all humanity I am sure but you have to seek it out and alas that is something I fear you will not do. > > Nietzsche's life's work was dedicated to attempting to create a > well-developed replacement to both religion and "Slave Morality". > > I don't know if I support Nietzsche's alternative of "Master Morality" > (where the obstacle is to become the best human possible, the > so-called "ubermensch"), but I do say that "trap" is hardly a "trap" > rather it's just a human need for an obstacle or conflict, and by > rejecting religion all one is doing is rejecting the type of conflict > which that religion endorses. > Thirdly, > ______ > > .................| -> vvvvvvvv > ______ > > On the subject of Relativity: > ______ > > .................| -> ^^^^^^^^^ > ______ > > "The only rule is everything changes, even this rule." is the best > misquoting of Heraclitus I've heard and has rather impacted my view of > "Relativity". Ultimately building off of the concept that the meaning > of life is just any arbitrary form of conflict, then sometimes > constant values contribute to having an increased selection of types > of conflict. Technology of modern day allows us to have simulated > battles over the net, and, without a whole slew of discovered > constants (such as ways of making the voltage across a wire consistent > with what is intended to deliver a message), then that would not be > possible. I believe the universe only stays as consistent as it needs > to be for every life to have a potentially unique purpose given work > to discover new constant attributes to apply to a new purpose to > assume. I believe it is quite possible high-fantasy magic might have > existed at one point and that it was merely purged by the work devoted > to the infinitely more rigorous "science". That's just my perspective, > and it is also my perspective that science could be replaced with > high-enough degree of arbitrary work dedicated to discovering > attributes of the universe incompatible with modern science. This > would require a large influx of unfulfilled persons highly motivated > to transform the status quo and contradict conventional wisdom. I will also add that I haven't read what you speak of, but I do know the concept of blind chance... and it makes me think that someone who doesn't want to accept the truth or the truth is too hard to bear came up with it. Not saying that you feel that way even secretly, but I do think that such talk takes far more faith in science than it takes me to believe in God. That's my perception though. Again it is my opinion. So try to chill. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From kyle at free2.ml Wed May 10 03:34:29 2017 From: kyle at free2.ml (Kyle) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 22:34:29 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> <1d4b2835-7ec8-fa7b-3726-ef1c9270aaeb@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: <6f280e91-5847-2971-18a5-c8234339611a@free2.ml> Damn. You know a list has been taken over by posting nazis when entire threads get hijacked just to tell anyone who cares to listen that someone top posted, and that breaks someone's flow. Well, here's the deal. My e-mail client is threaded, so I see the whole conversation in order. It just flows naturally that way. If I want to read the same messages over and over, all I have to do is open them as many times as I want. There is therefore no need to quote anything at all, as I have the entire context. I'm looking at you especially, hard-core bottom posters, who just have to outlook-style quote the entire two ore more messages and move their cursor all the way down to the bottom to write their little one-liner response. I see lots of this kind of thing: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A: It messes up the flow of the conversation. Q: What's wrong with top posting? But instead, we should be asking ourselves how this looks. Please try not to read the entirety of the example below; just see how easy it will be to see my comments after the example: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi. How are you ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, "Person A" rote: > Hi. How are you: I'm doing well. And you? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:32 PM, "Person B" wrote: > On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, "Person A" rote: > > Hi. How are you: > > I'm doing well. And you? I'm having a great day. I just found this awesome information you just have to see about libre RISC computing. Could it be applied to your current work? http://thisismysite.link/truly-free-computing-is-possible/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original message ----- From: "Person A" Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Could this work? > On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:32 PM, "Person B" wrote: > > On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, "Person A" rote: > > > Hi. How are you: > > > > I'm doing well. And you? > > I'm having a great day. I just found this awesome information you just have to see about libre > RISC computing. Could it be applied to your current work? > http://thisismysite.link/truly-free-computing-is-possible/ This looks like something I came across a couple of days ago. I think it has some merit, but needs lots of time and money to make it work. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:34 PM, "Person A" wrote: > On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:32 PM, "Person B" wrote: > > On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, "Person A" rote: > > > Hi. How are you: > > > > I'm doing well. And you? > > I'm having a great day. I just found this awesome information you just have to see about libre > RISC computing. Could it be applied to your current work? > http://thisismysite.link/truly-free-computing-is-possible/ Yes. This looks quite promising. In fact, I've put lots of time and effort into this very idea. Thanks for the link. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:42 PM, "Person B" wrote: > On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:34 PM, "Person A" wrote: > > On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:32 PM, "Person B" wrote: > > > On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, "Person A" rote: > > > > Hi. How are you: > > > > > > I'm doing well. And you? > > > > I'm having a great day. I just found this awesome information you just have to see about libre > > RISC computing. Could it be applied to your current work? > > http://thisismysite.link/truly-free-computing-is-possible/ > > Yes. This looks quite promising. In fact, I've put lots of time and effort into this very idea. > Thanks for the link. No problem. Glad to help. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Usually, if I feel the need to quote at all, I keep my quotes short and my attributions shorter: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is bottom posting bad? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- According to Person A: # Why is bottom posting bad? It forces readers to see the same message a hundred times or more before they can see responses. This makes it very hard to keep up with a thread, unless the reader intentionally comes in late. Threaded clients do all the hard work, so readers shouldn't have to. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- But most of the time, I try to retain context in other ways that don't require quoting: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is bottom posting bad? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bottom posting forces readers to see the same message a hundred times or more before they can see a response, making it hard to keep up with a thread unless they intentionally start reading late. Threaded clients do all the work, so readers shouldn't have to. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This is what I do, and it would benefit readers everywhere. That said, I usually don't tell people how to post, and simply read the messages in context the best way I can. The problem is although I don't usually write my feelings about this rampant bottom posting down anywhere, I feel the need to speak out when threads start getting hijacked because someone posted something in a way that someone who wants to be the posting police didn't like. I find this list to be quite informative, and I see a lot of good things coming in the hopefully not-too-distant future because of the ongoing work that is taking place here, as well as on various pages and articles linked here. However, post police hijacking threads to tell people they're posting wrong, when all they want to do is contribute to the discussion is counterproductive at best, has happened 2 to 3 times just on this list in the past 24 hours, has completely derailed a thread at least once in that time and is enough to make people who otherwise have good contributions want to leave. ~Kyle From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed May 10 03:39:48 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 22:39:48 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> Message-ID: On 5/9/17, Benson Mitchell wrote: > Seems like you're confusing back-quote (`) with single-quote ('), maybe? > I just want to say that alone makes for pretty terrible design within a fundamental language which an entire os can't run without. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed May 10 03:51:13 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 22:51:13 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <5034ae20-c316-0810-2884-68d28e6610c6@openmailbox.org> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <5034ae20-c316-0810-2884-68d28e6610c6@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On 5/9/17, zap wrote: > > > On 05/09/2017 08:14 PM, John Luke Gibson wrote: >> On 5/9/17, Lyberta wrote: >>> doark at mail.com: >>>> I think you're caught in the same trap, unable to realize your own >>>> potential for lack of a moral standard (it also suffers as a result of >>>> an Atheistic philosophy), and unable to accept a pointless existence. >>> When I was 19, I was in a very bad situation. Everything I've ever >>> believed in was false. So I've spent the next 6 months looking for >>> truth. Thankfully, I have dropped out of college by this time so I had >>> time to investigate. >>> >>> And in one moment it dawned upon me. There is no truth. Everything is >>> relative. People invent their own truth and start believing in it. So if >>> I want to stay unshackled I must not believe in anything. >>> >>> The next thing was supposed to be suicide but I couldn't do it. I don't >>> know the future and I don't know what will happen when I die. In fact, >>> I'm trapped inside my own consciousness and by definition can't escape >>> it and see the truth. Remember Plato's allegory of the cave? >>> >>> Another thing that bugs me is, since I don't believe in anything, I also >>> don't believe in science. I can't predict what's gonna happen in the >>> next moment. Every once in a while I get in this state of mind where I >>> understand that I understand nothing. >>> >>>> In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is eyeopening, >>>> insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world around you, as >>>> opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. >>> I was forced to read books at school and this gave a huge hatred for >>> them. I remember I've tried to read a fiction book at psychiatric >>> hospital and after the 1st paragraph I was so enraged that I quickly put >>> it away. Though this mostly applies to fiction. >>> >>> >> The mountains of religious thought pumped into this thread has it >> visibly oozing (I mean no offense). Firstly, the speaker in that video >> linked @zap I'm familiar with and is very unreliable when their claims >> are checked or researched. Secondly, Nietzsche explores that so-called >> "trap". The thing is that religion presents the concept of morality >> which fills the space created by ennui and lack of obstacles to >> self-preservation. Noam Chomsky popularized abit the thought that the >> consistent trend in nature is more intelligent species tend to go >> extinct after a shorter period than obviously less intelligent ones >> (i.e. beetles), this is due to genetic drift and inbred weaknesses due >> to a lack of obstacles to their survival. Ethics is an artificial >> obstacle we present ourselves in order to keep us strong (Nietzsche >> referred to the model used by Christianity as Slave Morality, >> suggesting that the ethics therein enslave the subscriber to the whims >> and desires of the less fortunate, and thusly purporting the existence >> of less fortunate as ENDEMICALLY NECESSARY because without less >> fortunate people then there would be point to the ethics of >> christianity and therefore there would be no obstacle to occupy >> ourselves with and therefore genetic drift would set in and we would >> die as a species. In other words, Nietzsche considered christianity so >> obsessed with compassion, that in a world without suffering it would >> utterly and completely fall apart.). > You can choose to think what you want, but for me it as relieved my > suffering long term. > > I feel peace more than I ever used to, as a child I was an athiest. as a > teenager I was agonstic and four years ago I was in fact the kind of > christian you think all christians are... > > > The fact of the matter is you have black and white thinking > > Saying all religion is conflict is to me like all science is good. > > Science after all is directly responsible for why climate change is > happening. > > I know you may mean well, but please try reading the gospels of jesus' > ministry before you claim to understand what is true and false. IF it > helps to motivate you do it for a laugh, not that I agree with that, but > he spoke out against the very things you are saying he supports. He > wants nothing to do with conflict other than to heal the hurts of those > who are suffering. > > By the way, I do not think I am unreliable. I think we just have a > difference of opinion. > > I don't think all atheists are bad heck, who knows what will happen at > the end of ones life, they could turn to christ. > > Hard to say, > > conversely, not all christians are good, mostly because some lie about > who they are. > > You can find examples of both sides in all humanity I am sure but you > have to seek it out and alas that is something I fear you will not do. > > > > >> >> Nietzsche's life's work was dedicated to attempting to create a >> well-developed replacement to both religion and "Slave Morality". >> >> I don't know if I support Nietzsche's alternative of "Master Morality" >> (where the obstacle is to become the best human possible, the >> so-called "ubermensch"), but I do say that "trap" is hardly a "trap" >> rather it's just a human need for an obstacle or conflict, and by >> rejecting religion all one is doing is rejecting the type of conflict >> which that religion endorses. >> Thirdly, >> ______ >> >> .................| -> vvvvvvvv >> ______ >> >> On the subject of Relativity: >> ______ >> >> .................| -> ^^^^^^^^^ >> ______ >> >> "The only rule is everything changes, even this rule." is the best >> misquoting of Heraclitus I've heard and has rather impacted my view of >> "Relativity". Ultimately building off of the concept that the meaning >> of life is just any arbitrary form of conflict, then sometimes >> constant values contribute to having an increased selection of types >> of conflict. Technology of modern day allows us to have simulated >> battles over the net, and, without a whole slew of discovered >> constants (such as ways of making the voltage across a wire consistent >> with what is intended to deliver a message), then that would not be >> possible. I believe the universe only stays as consistent as it needs >> to be for every life to have a potentially unique purpose given work >> to discover new constant attributes to apply to a new purpose to >> assume. I believe it is quite possible high-fantasy magic might have >> existed at one point and that it was merely purged by the work devoted >> to the infinitely more rigorous "science". That's just my perspective, >> and it is also my perspective that science could be replaced with >> high-enough degree of arbitrary work dedicated to discovering >> attributes of the universe incompatible with modern science. This >> would require a large influx of unfulfilled persons highly motivated >> to transform the status quo and contradict conventional wisdom. > > I will also add that I haven't read what you speak of, but I do know the > concept of blind chance... > > and it makes me think that someone who doesn't want to accept the truth > or the truth is too hard to bear came up with it. > > Not saying that you feel that way even secretly, but I do think that > such talk takes far more faith in science than it takes me to believe in > God. > > That's my perception though. Again it is my opinion. So try to chill. > > >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk I think you heavily misinterpreted most of what I said, mostly because the first "thing" was more a side comment. I didn't watch the video, because I find the speaker seems willfully unreliable. I've listened to their lectures before. Everything else was more pointed at what doark had said. From lyberta at lyberta.net Wed May 10 03:56:00 2017 From: lyberta at lyberta.net (Lyberta) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 02:56:00 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> zap: > I don't know if your religious or not, I'm agnostic and I have extreme anti-religion views: https://lyberta.net/articles/social/anti_religion.html >> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: >> >>> Nobody "believes" in science. >> >> sadly, they do. they're usually the ones who tell you that the >> climate's absolutely fine. Most of people usually predict the future using whatever science they know and most of them usually don't factor that they may be absolutely wrong. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 07:40:02 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 07:40:02 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 12:00 AM, John Luke Gibson wrote: > Right now I'm looking at CHIP-buildroot. > I'm planning on patching out any blobs and also anything not CHIP > related (as we don't want a person to accidentally think the script > will give them a blobless cubieboard or anything). there's already a libre version of the linux kernel which has this done already. look up the linux kernel that parabola uses. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 07:42:48 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 07:42:48 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Laptop Power Input? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 2:14 AM, Alexander Ross wrote: > Not sure what the power input for laptop is? 5V-17V although i may have to change that as i may need to put in a 5V power regulator. i may end up using the exact same regulator as in the microdesktop. that would make the power input anywhere between 7 and 21V. > 5V i think but at how many > amps? 4 for charging. > I seen 3A for the cpu card... So i guess a 2.4A usb power supply > won’t be suitable? correct. > Cus if it will work well from 2.4A 5V input, nope. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 07:55:34 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 07:55:34 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 3:34 AM, Kyle wrote: > Damn. You know a list has been taken over by posting nazis when entire > threads get hijacked just to tell anyone who cares to listen that someone > top posted, and that breaks someone's flow. nooo: it means that we have new people whom we need to accommodate and teach them how to not disrupt communication with over 400 other people. as we get new people, that discussion naturally needs to take place regularly. > Well, here's the deal. My e-mail > client is threaded, so I see the whole conversation in order. It just flows > naturally that way. indeed... but you are just one of the 400+ people. i don't use a threaded email client; others may use mutt, and so on. > If I want to read the same messages over and over, all I > have to do is open them as many times as I want. There is therefore no need > to quote anything at all, as I have the entire context. there is no need to quote anything at all... *for you*, as *you* have the entire context, and have an email client where it is convenient to review prior messages very very easily. a busy person (one who has hundreds of messages a day) would not have the time to do that - hence the reason why there are rules about providing (and cutting unnecessary) context. > I'm looking at you > especially, hard-core bottom posters, hard-core bottom-posting is just as bad, as is not cutting extraneous context > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:42 PM, "Person B" > wrote: >> On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:34 PM, "Person A" wrote: >> > On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:32 PM, "Person B" >> > wrote: >> > > On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 8:30 PM, "Person A" this kind of thing - not cutting extraneous context - is *really* irritating to have to read through. like the wikipedia page says, and every netiquette page says, it's really important to remove anything (but ONLY anything) which is not needed. the remaining context should make the ongoing immediate discussion "understandable". issues that have already been discussed, resolved and do not need to be repeated should be removed. it's pretty sensible stuff > I find this list to be quite informative, and I see a lot of good things > coming in the hopefully not-too-distant future because of the ongoing work > that is taking place here, as well as on various pages and articles linked > here. However, post police hijacking threads to tell people they're posting > wrong, when all they want to do is contribute to the discussion is > counterproductive at best, has happened 2 to 3 times just on this list in > the past 24 hours, please be patient: we have new people coming in all the time. > has completely derailed a thread at least once in that > time and is enough to make people who otherwise have good contributions want > to leave. well, one of the things we don't unfortunately enforce properly is good subject-line management, which would allow people to select the topics that they're interested in. so, i'm going to try to start doing that and would appreciate people doing the same. l. From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Wed May 10 08:04:49 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 10:04:49 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Luke On the topic of GPU's have you seen this? https://github.com/etnaviv/etna_viv Seems to be a libre driver for Vivante GPU's On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:26 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 5:13 PM, wrote: > > > How can you make an arm gpu for 150000usd? > > you don't. ARM is a registered trademark, and copying what they're > doing is asking for trouble. > > instead you take one of the "open gpus" or parts of them and use that. > there's several i've been tracking: MIAOW, Nyuzi, the ORSOC graphics > accelerator - there's surprisingly quite a lot out there. > > > How would you use it? > > it would be on the same silicon, on the same memory bus as the RISC-V > 64-bit core. anything else is too power-hungry. > > > Would you put it additionally on a bord and not use the gpu located on > the processor socket? > > no. > > > If you reverse engineer the latest mali gpu, what you hold against it > is, that when next version of an arm socket is for sale it will have a new > mali gpu and require a new reverse engineering? > > correct. so whatever you get it's guaranteed to be "old". this is > the sad fact of reverse-engineering: all that effort, with *no > guarantee of success*.... just to get something that's years > out-of-date. > > > > Lets say 50000 people would buy the filrefly rk3399. Same people would > pay 3eu each for reverse engineering the gpu. Then we would have a source > code arm computer? > > no. ARM has acted so unethically in slandering luc verhaegen and > blackmailing companies that pay him that i am not interested in > supporting their business any more than is absolutely necessary. > > > It takes a lot of coordination to provide gnulinux distributions I > assume. > > yes. a _lot_. however amazingly people are actually doing just > that... even on risc-v where there isn't yet even any actual hardware. > > > It is unfortunate people are not able to coordinate such that we can get > source code hardware. > > it's still quite a young area of focus. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 08:12:57 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 08:12:57 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:04 AM, Allan Mwenda wrote: > Hi Luke > On the topic of GPU's have you seen this? > https://github.com/etnaviv/etna_viv yeahyeah i have. > Seems to be a libre driver for Vivante GPU's it is. the problem with vivante is that their *own* proprietary driver is so shit that the entire reputation of vivante's technology has been shot to shit. i spoke with one fabless semiconductor company, urging them to use etnaviv: unfortunately my contact used the word "vivante" when talking to the engineer, who told my contact "it's shit. it keeps crashing. so we won't use it". whoopsie... l. From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Wed May 10 08:16:30 2017 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 21:16:30 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 09/05/17 20:55, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > nooo: it means that we have new people whom we need to accommodate > and teach them how to not disrupt communication with over 400 other > people. as we get new people, that discussion naturally needs to take > place regularly. Is there perhaps a link to a good primer on mailing list posting etiquette that should be added to the welcome message for new subscribers? > this kind of thing - not cutting extraneous context - is *really* > irritating to have to read through. Thanks for mentioning this one. I've thought about saying something about the looong messages with a short bit at the bottom, but I think this one is better coming from you as list owner. Tor -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ 808-828-1107 GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 181 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mike.valk at gmail.com Wed May 10 08:23:52 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 09:23:52 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke In-Reply-To: <6f280e91-5847-2971-18a5-c8234339611a@free2.ml> References: <28abdfd5-808c-ae1d-b344-dbf631bdce76@openmailbox.org> <1d4b2835-7ec8-fa7b-3726-ef1c9270aaeb@openmailbox.org> <6f280e91-5847-2971-18a5-c8234339611a@free2.ml> Message-ID: 2017-05-10 4:34 GMT+02:00 Kyle : > Damn. You know a list has been taken over by posting nazis when entire > threads get hijacked just to tell anyone who cares to listen that someone > top posted, and that breaks someone's flow. > I'm not seeing any of that. The inline posting is simply the format chosen, for various reasons, on this list. Everyone from the "Outlook" world is unfamiliar with type of communication, that was including me. But I find the inline posting quite refreshing. And doesn't require an email client capable of "story-lining". And helps with addressing multiple issues and responses in one thread. TL;DR Thanks for your point of view. But I wonder who's the posting n..i here. ~Kyle > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 08:25:45 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 08:25:45 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 card based on NXP i.MX7 (work in progress) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:53 PM, Vincent wrote: > Hi everybody, > > Since this is my first post on this list, please allow me to get off my > chest a few things: > > - huge thanks to Luke for getting this project started > - me = funding a PFY laptop, eagerly awaiting for it to arrive ;-) > - me = working at a research institute, focused on hardware security hi vincent, nice to see you here on the list. > What would be of interest to me is the following: > - How well the idea of having an i.MX7 card is received i like it - the more the merrier, especially if there are others making them. > - How important the use of an open source CAD program is. debatable. if they were up to scratch it would be more important. they're not up to scratch... so... *sigh*. > I have access > to Altium and have used it beforehand. However, KiCad has made > significant progress since CERN is involved. Using KiCad would make it > easier for the community to modify the board but since soldering these > components by hand is impossible anyway, would there be any benefit in > having freely accessible design files? you pretty much summed it up. do the best you can. gerbers, export the PCB so it *can* be imported into libre design software (i believe someone has actually written a plugin for kicad so it can import altium in some way), and so on. but honestly, KiCAD simply is not up to the task. you *will* end up in a world of pain. firstly: you should not be considering re-laying-out the DDR3 tracks (unless absolutely necessary... and - see later - it's not necessary). secondly, if there's a pre-existing Reference Board you should be using it and adapting your working strategy to that. basically it's all about making the absolute minimum number of changes. this is *not* software. each "test" you do costs $1700 to $2000 and takes around 2-4 weeks to make then another 2-4 weeks to debug. > - General interest in a tamper-resistant enclosure > > To make the development easier, it would be nice if Luke could provide > us (the community) with: > - proper drawings for the outline of his PCB > - PCMCIA connector type/enclosure and height requirements of PCB > - mechanical verification package (as order option on crowdsupply) to > provide a "getting-you-started" package for EOMA68 card developers; > possibly including: PCMCIA receptable, connector, enclosure, etc. as you're the first let's do this in an informal way that's convenient for me to do. i've had a go at converting the sabre iMX7 Reference Design over to EOMA68, and what i'll do is email you that once i've put all the (latest versions of) components into it. then, if you use mike's factory, he has all the parts, and is set up to ship internationally. > Please let me know what you think. Also, please keep in mind that this > is a kind of fun project for me at work and therefore the time I can > spend on this is limited. Progress will be slow but I will be sending > updates to the mailing list. cool - understood. well, i'll try to make it easy for you by cleaning up the converted Reference Design. this is awesome! :) l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 08:26:23 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 08:26:23 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Tor, the Marqueteur wrote: > On 09/05/17 20:55, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> nooo: it means that we have new people whom we need to accommodate >> and teach them how to not disrupt communication with over 400 other >> people. as we get new people, that discussion naturally needs to take >> place regularly. > > Is there perhaps a link to a good primer on mailing list posting > etiquette that should be added to the welcome message for new subscribers? *click*... oh yeah :) From vkontogpls at gmail.com Wed May 10 08:53:31 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 10:53:31 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 3:14 AM, John Luke Gibson wrote: > > > The mountains of religious thought pumped into this thread has it > visibly oozing (I mean no offense). Firstly, the speaker in that video > linked @zap I'm familiar with and is very unreliable when their claims > are checked or researched. Secondly, Nietzsche explores that so-called > "trap". The thing is that religion presents the concept of morality > which fills the space created by ennui and lack of obstacles to > self-preservation. Noam Chomsky popularized abit the thought that the > consistent trend in nature is more intelligent species tend to go > extinct after a shorter period than obviously less intelligent ones > (i.e. beetles), this is due to genetic drift and inbred weaknesses due > to a lack of obstacles to their survival. Ethics is an artificial > obstacle we present ourselves in order to keep us strong (Nietzsche > referred to the model used by Christianity as Slave Morality, > suggesting that the ethics therein enslave the subscriber to the whims > and desires of the less fortunate, and thusly purporting the existence > of less fortunate as ENDEMICALLY NECESSARY because without less > fortunate people then there would be point to the ethics of > christianity and therefore there would be no obstacle to occupy > ourselves with and therefore genetic drift would set in and we would > die as a species. In other words, Nietzsche considered christianity so > obsessed with compassion, that in a world without suffering it would > utterly and completely fall apart.). > > Nietzsche's life's work was dedicated to attempting to create a > well-developed replacement to both religion and "Slave Morality". > > I don't know if I support Nietzsche's alternative of "Master Morality" > (where the obstacle is to become the best human possible, the > so-called "ubermensch"), but I do say that "trap" is hardly a "trap" > rather it's just a human need for an obstacle or conflict, and by > rejecting religion all one is doing is rejecting the type of conflict > which that religion endorses. > Well said. I read on a neurology book that the human brain is made in such a way that if we pumped ourselves with dopamine and endorphin all day we would end up committing suicide. We are designed to need both pain and happiness in our lives to keep ourselves balanced. If you think about it it makes sense: pain does exist in the world and we are bound to feel it at some point, we might as well design ourselves in such a way that we actually need it. A bit of evolution 101 there. Also I like to think of ethics as the way that we prefer to make society work. As someone who bases his world view on logic, I prefer a set of ethical rules that benefit society as a whole the most. Others prefer ethics deriving from religions. > Thirdly, > ______ > > .................| -> vvvvvvvv > ______ > > On the subject of Relativity: > ______ > > .................| -> ^^^^^^^^^ > ______ > > "The only rule is everything changes, even this rule." is the best > misquoting of Heraclitus I've heard and has rather impacted my view of > "Relativity". Ultimately building off of the concept that the meaning > of life is just any arbitrary form of conflict, then sometimes > constant values contribute to having an increased selection of types > of conflict. Technology of modern day allows us to have simulated > battles over the net, and, without a whole slew of discovered > constants (such as ways of making the voltage across a wire consistent > with what is intended to deliver a message), then that would not be > possible. I believe the universe only stays as consistent as it needs > to be for every life to have a potentially unique purpose given work > to discover new constant attributes to apply to a new purpose to > assume. I believe it is quite possible high-fantasy magic might have > existed at one point and that it was merely purged by the work devoted > to the infinitely more rigorous "science". That's just my perspective, > and it is also my perspective that science could be replaced with > high-enough degree of arbitrary work dedicated to discovering > attributes of the universe incompatible with modern science. This > would require a large influx of unfulfilled persons highly motivated > to transform the status quo and contradict conventional wisdom. > Maybe. But As Arthur C. Clarke said, Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. At that point I don't care if it's magic or god or too advanced technology, it's just way beyond my reach and that's what matters the most. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.valk at gmail.com Wed May 10 09:02:42 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 10:02:42 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 card based on NXP i.MX7 (work in progress) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-05-09 22:53 GMT+02:00 Vincent : > Hi everybody, > > Since this is my first post on this list, please allow me to get off my > chest a few things: > > - huge thanks to Luke for getting this project started > - me = funding a PFY laptop, eagerly awaiting for it to arrive ;-) > - me = working at a research institute, focused on hardware security > > As a private individual but also as at work, having an EOMA68 card based > on an NXP i.MX7 would be very useful. It is a powerful processor with a > heterogeneous architecture (2x A7, 1x M4) which makes it an interesting > choice for energy-limited applications (M4 can turn off/on A7) and > scenarios where safety/security are important (M4 can do real-time aside > from workload on A7). > > The i.MX7 has many useful security features (crypto accelerators, > high-assurance boot, TrustZone, etc.). > > An initial check with the EOMA68 infrastructure indicates compatibility. > > My personal goals with this are as follows: > - Create an EOMA68 card with i.MX7 to complement my research (in fact, I > simply need a good demo for the stuff I'm doing) > - Provide the community an even better microprocessor card > - Have a complex PCB project to learn along the way (I did PCB designs > beforehand but never that complex) > Looks like a good objective. The i.MX display pipeline is reasonably reverse engineered to have a full open open source experience. Reading this list I guess you'll need a few things before you start: 1. Check is the i.MX7 fits the powerprofile 2. Find a reference design. NDA free 3. Check if the i.MX7 has all required outputs. Or needs converter IC's -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Wed May 10 09:05:25 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 11:05:25 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh that sux Is the gpu itself fairly capable though? On 10 May 2017 10:12:57 GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:04 AM, Allan Mwenda >wrote: >> Hi Luke >> On the topic of GPU's have you seen this? >> https://github.com/etnaviv/etna_viv > > yeahyeah i have. > >> Seems to be a libre driver for Vivante GPU's > > it is. the problem with vivante is that their *own* proprietary >driver is so shit that the entire reputation of vivante's technology >has been shot to shit. > > i spoke with one fabless semiconductor company, urging them to use >etnaviv: unfortunately my contact used the word "vivante" when talking >to the engineer, who told my contact "it's shit. it keeps crashing. >so we won't use it". > > whoopsie... > >l. > >_______________________________________________ >arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Wed May 10 09:14:08 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 11:14:08 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 card based on NXP i.MX7 (work in progress) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hardware designs and documentation are crucial for the lliberation of hardware. You wont be regarded well by the community if you hide these. Even if you a proprietary software to design (loss of YOUR personal freedoms) save all results in a format usable in a libre client (OUR freedom is at stake at that point) On 9 May 2017 23:53:34 GMT+03:00, Vincent wrote: >Hi everybody, > >Since this is my first post on this list, please allow me to get off my >chest a few things: > >- huge thanks to Luke for getting this project started >- me = funding a PFY laptop, eagerly awaiting for it to arrive ;-) >- me = working at a research institute, focused on hardware security > >As a private individual but also as at work, having an EOMA68 card >based >on an NXP i.MX7 would be very useful. It is a powerful processor with a >heterogeneous architecture (2x A7, 1x M4) which makes it an interesting >choice for energy-limited applications (M4 can turn off/on A7) and >scenarios where safety/security are important (M4 can do real-time >aside >from workload on A7). > >The i.MX7 has many useful security features (crypto accelerators, >high-assurance boot, TrustZone, etc.). > >An initial check with the EOMA68 infrastructure indicates >compatibility. > >My personal goals with this are as follows: >- Create an EOMA68 card with i.MX7 to complement my research (in fact, >I >simply need a good demo for the stuff I'm doing) >- Provide the community an even better microprocessor card >- Have a complex PCB project to learn along the way (I did PCB designs >beforehand but never that complex) > >The project outline is roughly as follows: >- 1 Use a phyBOARD-Zeta and a set of adapters to check compatibility of >the i.MX7 and the EOMA68 infrastructure once the PFY laptop arrives [1] >- 2 Create a PCMCIA-II card featuring the i.MX7 (goal: release as board >+ schematics to the public) >- 3 Create a PCMCIA-III card protected with a high-security >tamper-resistant enclosure that makes physical access improbable (I >will >not comment on this prior to publication as it is my research project), >check for example [2] > >What would be of interest to me is the following: >- How well the idea of having an i.MX7 card is received >- How important the use of an open source CAD program is. I have access >to Altium and have used it beforehand. However, KiCad has made >significant progress since CERN is involved. Using KiCad would make it >easier for the community to modify the board but since soldering these >components by hand is impossible anyway, would there be any benefit in >having freely accessible design files? >- General interest in a tamper-resistant enclosure > >To make the development easier, it would be nice if Luke could provide >us (the community) with: >- proper drawings for the outline of his PCB >- PCMCIA connector type/enclosure and height requirements of PCB >- mechanical verification package (as order option on crowdsupply) to >provide a "getting-you-started" package for EOMA68 card developers; >possibly including: PCMCIA receptable, connector, enclosure, etc. > >Please let me know what you think. Also, please keep in mind that this >is a kind of fun project for me at work and therefore the time I can >spend on this is limited. Progress will be slow but I will be sending >updates to the mailing list. > >Cheers, >Vincent > >[1] http://www.phytec.eu/product/single-board-computer/phyboard-zeta/ >[2] http://www.design-shift.com/orwl/ > >_______________________________________________ >arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Wed May 10 10:05:33 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:05:33 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> Message-ID: Free Software Foundation Latin America Linux-Libre. On 10 May 2017 09:40:02 GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >--- >crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > >On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 12:00 AM, John Luke Gibson > wrote: > >> Right now I'm looking at CHIP-buildroot. >> I'm planning on patching out any blobs and also anything not CHIP >> related (as we don't want a person to accidentally think the script >> will give them a blobless cubieboard or anything). > > there's already a libre version of the linux kernel which has this >done already. look up the linux kernel that parabola uses. > >l. > >_______________________________________________ >arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 10:42:37 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 10:42:37 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:53 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > Well said. I read on a neurology book that the human brain is made in such a > way that if we pumped ourselves with dopamine and endorphin all day we would > end up committing suicide. We are designed to need both pain and happiness > in our lives to keep ourselves balanced. y'know... even Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said that "total bliss" can get a bit boring after a few decades. the "Wheel of Time" series by robert jordan - the ending is just stunningly unexpected but reinforces the same theme. > If you think about it it makes > sense: pain does exist in the world and we are bound to feel it at some > point, we might as well design ourselves in such a way that we actually need > it. A bit of evolution 101 there. Also I like to think of ethics as the way > that we prefer to make society work. As someone who bases his world view on > logic, I prefer a set of ethical rules that benefit society as a whole the > most. can i say: do take care with that perspective. it's only been a quite recent discovery, for myself, that i realise quite how brain-washed all of us are to believe that western society's "benefit" is fast becoming tyranny and fascism. asian and indian society, that's a different matter: at least in both those societies there seems to be a strong foundation, but in the west? pfffh. all i can say is: no wonder religious extremists are prepared even to sacrifice their lives to make a point about how corrupt and corrupting western society really is. > Others prefer ethics deriving from religions. everyone does what is most useful to them. such a strange phrase that: everyone does what is *most useful* to them. the discussion on "codes of conduct" was a challenge that made me think, and i realised that people set themselves criteria which fall into the same type of categories as 2nd, 3rd and 4th normalised form, for databases. most religions have "rules" which fall into either 2nd or 3rd normalised form. in fact: most atheists do, too. very *very* few people operate by a set of ethical decision-making evaluation criteria that fit into 4th normalised form: a "compact" way to ASSESS whether a particular RULE may be DERIVED against which a situation may be evaluated. why do people not do that? because it takes too long, that's why. some decisions - particularly those involving safety - have to be split-second. but even when it's not it can simply take too long or can be too complex / involved. anyway.... :) l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 10:47:43 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 10:47:43 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 card based on NXP i.MX7 (work in progress) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:02 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > Looks like a good objective. The i.MX display pipeline is reasonably reverse > engineered to have a full open open source experience. > > Reading this list I guess you'll need a few things before you start: > 1. Check is the i.MX7 fits the powerprofile it does. it's only a dual-core Cortex A7 so will be fine. > 2. Find a reference design. NDA free done already. found. already started a conversion process, which i'll hand over to vincent shortly. vincent: the only thing is, once you're in altium i can't directly help you further: any help will have to be done by either screenshots, PDFs, or in the case of the PCB layout with gerber files. one-way output in other words. > 3. Check if the i.MX7 has all required outputs. it does. > Or needs converter IC's it doesn't. From phil at hands.com Wed May 10 11:03:55 2017 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:03:55 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> Message-ID: <8737cdvxis.fsf@whist.hands.com> John Luke Gibson writes: > On 5/9/17, Benson Mitchell wrote: >> Seems like you're confusing back-quote (`) with single-quote ('), maybe? >> > I just want to say that alone makes for pretty terrible design within > a fundamental language which an entire os can't run without. When `` was first used I'm sure they were very pleased to have come up with command substitution at all, so blaming them for introducing readability issues is a bit harsh. It's also possible that the distinction between ` and ' was much more obvious when one was reading the code off of a punched paper tape ;-) $() has been in POSIX for at least 13 years: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/xcu_chap02.html#tag_02_06_03 but I suspect that it was in 1003.2 in 1997, but cannot find a reference. It is certainly a shame when one sees new scripts being written with ``, but that's what one gets when people are learning by example, and there is too little curation of the examples to weed out the archaic usage. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 832 bytes Desc: not available URL: From valhalla-l at trueelena.org Wed May 10 11:59:33 2017 From: valhalla-l at trueelena.org (Elena ``of Valhalla'') Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:59:33 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Changed list-id Message-ID: <20170510105933.6aopwpp6reqgluyw@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> Hello I've just noticed that the list-id for this list has been changed: would it be possible to announce it in advance so that people have time to update their filters? BTW, I think that the current list-id also has a typo, so am I correct in thinking that it will probably change again in the future? -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' From auerswal at unix-ag.uni-kl.de Wed May 10 12:58:09 2017 From: auerswal at unix-ag.uni-kl.de (Erik Auerswald) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 13:58:09 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 router (qca9531) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170510115809.GA19117@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Hi, On Fri, May 05, 2017 at 03:04:37PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > so i would assume, because it's not an actual 10/100 ethernet, that it > > would run at (saturate) the full 480mb/sec of USB2. so not quite GbE > > speeds but pretty damn close. yay! > > Based on what USB2 gives us with "mass-storage" devices, 30MB/s is > basically the upper bound. And FWIW, when I connect my desktop to my > A20-based router via USB2 on one side and USB-OTG on the other (using > the "gether" gadget), I'm getting about 10MB/s, so "faster than > fast-ethernet" maybe, but be surprised if you get "close" to GbE speeds. That is slower than Fast Ethernet which is 12.5MB/s. Erik -- Inside every large problem is a small problem struggling to get out. -- Hoare's Law of Large Problems From pablo at parobalth.org Wed May 10 15:02:13 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 16:02:13 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <3FE812F6-9C01-496C-9415-A673241C250D@openmailbox.org> References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> <3FE812F6-9C01-496C-9415-A673241C250D@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: <20170510140213.GA8937@pabbook> On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 05:06:17PM -0700, Jeffrey Sites wrote: > > > > On May 9, 2017, at 16:00, John Luke Gibson wrote: > > > > Right now I'm looking at CHIP-buildroot. > > I'm planning on patching out any blobs and also anything not CHIP > > related (as we don't want a person to accidentally think the script > > will give them a blobless cubieboard or anything). > > > > Would it make sense to just add a target for C.H.I.P. to libreCMC in this case? > > I had been planning on doing that for a while but haven't had the time. > libreCMC seems an odd choice to me because C.H.I.P. does not have an ethernet port. I think libreCMC for a C.H.I.P. will have a small userbase. Do you have a special use case in mind? As a general purpose OS one of the libre distributions or Debian with only the main repository seems the way to go. Pablo From jsites at openmailbox.org Wed May 10 15:23:24 2017 From: jsites at openmailbox.org (Jeffrey Sites) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 07:23:24 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <20170510140213.GA8937@pabbook> References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> <3FE812F6-9C01-496C-9415-A673241C250D@openmailbox.org> <20170510140213.GA8937@pabbook> Message-ID: <1E632B8A-14FB-4BF9-A3C6-C9612C869062@openmailbox.org> --- jasites > On May 10, 2017, at 07:02, Pablo wrote: > >> On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 05:06:17PM -0700, Jeffrey Sites wrote: >> >> >>> On May 9, 2017, at 16:00, John Luke Gibson wrote: >>> >>> Right now I'm looking at CHIP-buildroot. >>> I'm planning on patching out any blobs and also anything not CHIP >>> related (as we don't want a person to accidentally think the script >>> will give them a blobless cubieboard or anything). >>> >> >> Would it make sense to just add a target for C.H.I.P. to libreCMC in this case? >> >> I had been planning on doing that for a while but haven't had the time. >> > libreCMC seems an odd choice to me because C.H.I.P. does not have an > ethernet port. I think libreCMC for a C.H.I.P. will have a small > userbase. Do you have a special use case in mind? > For using libreCMC as a base/framework for a lightweight embedded distribution without systemd, Linux-Libre kernel, uclib, and omitting router centric packages, using a ath9k_htc or USB->Ethernet dongle makes perfect sense for a small physical footprint for a server providing services like DHCP, HTTPS, or similar. Since there is already support for other sunxi devices, and NTC uses buildroot as their Debian alternative, it seemed worthwhile to me. Obviously depends on use case or intended purpose. > As a general purpose OS one of the libre distributions or Debian with > only the main repository seems the way to go. > > Pablo > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From pablo at parobalth.org Wed May 10 15:23:56 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 16:23:56 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> Message-ID: <20170510142356.GB8937@pabbook> > >>On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 12:00 AM, John Luke Gibson > >>eaterjolly at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Right now I'm looking at CHIP-buildroot. > >> I'm planning on patching out any blobs and also anything not CHIP > >> related (as we don't want a person to accidentally think the script > >> will give them a blobless cubieboard or anything). > >On 10 May 2017 09:40:02 GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > there's already a libre version of the linux kernel which has this > >done already. look up the linux kernel that parabola uses. > > >On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 12:05:33PM +0300, Allan Mwenda wrote: > Free Software Foundation Latin America Linux-Libre. Good idea! To use an already existing and "official" kernel will save time, add credibility and transparency. The link to the mentioned page of FSF Latin America is: https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/selibre/linux-libre/ With any non-Chip-kernel you will lose NAND support. So you can either: a)patch your libre kernel or b) ignore NAND and use flash memory via usb port. For b) you will need mainline U-Boot because NextThings U-Boot fork supports NAND but not booting via usb. Pablo From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 15:38:56 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 15:38:56 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <20170510142356.GB8937@pabbook> References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> <20170510142356.GB8937@pabbook> Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 3:23 PM, Pablo wrote: > With any non-Chip-kernel you will lose NAND support. > So you can either: > a)patch your libre kernel > or > b) ignore NAND and use flash memory via usb port. > > For b) you will need mainline U-Boot because NextThings U-Boot fork > supports NAND but not booting via usb. this sounds weird / not quite right. the R8 (aka A13, aka the A10) should be able to use the same sunxi 3.4.104+ kernel source as i've been using for the A20, which has the (sunxi, libre) NAND driver in it. afaik they didn't change the NAND hardware from the A10/A20 to the A13 to the R8 so this should be a non-issue. also from what i gather there's been mainline support for the (completely different, MTD-compatible) NAND driver for quite some time, so again, should be a non-issue. perhaps someone could ask on #linux-sunxi and/or their mailing list for confirmation of the facts? l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Wed May 10 16:05:20 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 17:05:20 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> <20170510142356.GB8937@pabbook> Message-ID: 2017-05-10 16:38 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 3:23 PM, Pablo wrote: > > > With any non-Chip-kernel you will lose NAND support. > > So you can either: > > a)patch your libre kernel > > or > > b) ignore NAND and use flash memory via usb port. > > > > For b) you will need mainline U-Boot because NextThings U-Boot fork > > supports NAND but not booting via usb. > > this sounds weird / not quite right. the R8 (aka A13, aka the A10) > should be able to use the same sunxi 3.4.104+ kernel source as i've > been using for the A20, which has the (sunxi, libre) NAND driver in > it. afaik they didn't change the NAND hardware from the A10/A20 to > the A13 to the R8 so this should be a non-issue. > > also from what i gather there's been mainline support for the > (completely different, MTD-compatible) NAND driver for quite some > time, so again, should be a non-issue. > > perhaps someone could ask on #linux-sunxi and/or their mailing list > for confirmation of the facts? Wiki says "work in progress" http://linux-sunxi.org/Mainlining_Effort http://linux-sunxi.org/NAND (Fun facts on supported NAND) http://linux-sunxi.org/MTD_Driver https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/linux-sunxi/mtd%7Csort:relevance Boris has commit access so it's probably all there since 4.7 His work and derivatives did touch a lot of NAND/MTD drivers though. Someone needs to crawl the linux kernel commits though or ask directly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Wed May 10 16:33:01 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 11:33:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> Message-ID: <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 02:56:00AM +0000, Lyberta wrote: > zap: > > I don't know if your religious or not, > > I'm agnostic and I have extreme anti-religion views: > https://lyberta.net/articles/social/anti_religion.html I'm an atheist whose basic emotional attitude is anger against God for not existing. But i have noticed that, true or false, a lot of people are helped by belief in God. So the scientific question becomes, what is it that actually helps them if God does not exist?? And can that, whatever it is, be replicated without belief in God? -- hendrik From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 17:46:23 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 17:46:23 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I'm an atheist whose basic emotional attitude is anger against God for > not existing. hendrik, i have to be honest: don't take it the wrong way ok, but i found this very very funny. windmills?? chearrrrge!! :) it's like, if you _did_ believe in god you'd be castigated and Sent to Helllll for having a negatve emotion called "anger", but *come on* man: if you believe *god doesn't exist* what the heck are you doing damaging your psyche by bothering to be angry! about something that in your mind *doesn't exist*! beautifully ironic :) > But i have noticed that, true or false, a lot of people are helped by > belief in God. eexactly. it's not "hedging bets": who cares what happens when we die, but if we *felt better about ourselves* does it actually really matter? no, of course not. > So the scientific question becomes, what is it that > actually helps them if God does not exist?? their own belief helps them. it gives them a sense of stability and purpose in their own minds, which would otherwise not be there, and there's a good chance that the exact same person would be a menace to themselves and to the people around them if their "belief" was not there. > And can that, whatever it is, be replicated without belief in God? hmmm that's a really _really_ good question. now that i think about it, i believe i heard of something about 20 years ago called the humanist society (or something like that). apparently they live their lives according to a really quite [humane] wonderful "code"... just without the bits about "god" attached. so i'd say definitively yes, you can... it's just that you'd have to choose to do so, and that can be really tough, to research, assess and then make the decision to adhere to a particular code. it means making changes in your life which might cost you friends, your job (because the company asks you to do something that is against your newly-chosen "code")... now, what wasn't clear in your question was whether you were asking about the *internal dialogue* that one might have with oneself to replicate the same *effects* as "belief in code" or whether you could have meant specifically the *external appearance* i.e. the improvements in *other people's* lives that your new [atheist but humane] "code" has. very cool question, hendrik. l. From zapper at openmailbox.org Wed May 10 17:55:20 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:55:20 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> Message-ID: <1ae13a40-8d4e-d5de-5968-8b08a859fd24@openmailbox.org> On 05/09/2017 10:56 PM, Lyberta wrote: > zap: >> I don't know if your religious or not, > I'm agnostic and I have extreme anti-religion views: > https://lyberta.net/articles/social/anti_religion.html Hmm that is rare, at least for me to hear, So you don't know if he exists, but you hate the idea of religion. That saddens me, but then again everyone has their path to follow. although, you choose your own path contrary to what some preachers preach. Our choices ultimately decide our path in the long run. Continual rejection of life itself leads to nothing good though. > >>> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Bill Kontos > wrote: >>>> Nobody "believes" in science. >>> sadly, they do. they're usually the ones who tell you that the >>> climate's absolutely fine. > Most of people usually predict the future using whatever science they > know and most of them usually don't factor that they may be absolutely > wrong. > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vincent.legoll at gmail.com Wed May 10 18:19:04 2017 From: vincent.legoll at gmail.com (Vincent Legoll) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 19:19:04 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, > well, one of the things we don't unfortunately enforce properly is > good subject-line management, which would allow people to select the > topics that they're interested in. so, i'm going to try to start > doing that and would appreciate people doing the same. Could you also add something about staying on-topic, thanks. -- Vincent Legoll From vkontogpls at gmail.com Wed May 10 19:23:05 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 21:23:05 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 7:46 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > > now that i think about it, i believe i heard of something about 20 > years ago called the humanist society (or something like that). > apparently they live their lives according to a really quite [humane] > wonderful "code"... just without the bits about "god" attached. > > so i'd say definitively yes, you can... it's just that you'd have to > choose to do so, and that can be really tough, to research, assess and > then make the decision to adhere to a particular code. it means > making changes in your life which might cost you friends, your job > (because the company asks you to do something that is against your > newly-chosen "code")... > > > Exactly this. I always prefer to do something by choice. Being manipulated is the one thing that I hate the most in life. But this takes time, and I have come to a very similar conclusion to this society you are talking about, that following 95% of the Christian ethics is a good idea because it makes for the most benefit for the society as a total. But I find having to believe that god exists and he will punish me for not following these ethics in order to be able follow them utterly pointless. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 19:38:22 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 19:38:22 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 6:19 PM, Vincent Legoll wrote: > Hello, > >> well, one of the things we don't unfortunately enforce properly is >> good subject-line management, which would allow people to select the >> topics that they're interested in. so, i'm going to try to start >> doing that and would appreciate people doing the same. > > Could you also add something about staying on-topic, thanks. awww! i quite _like_ the horrendous straying off-topic-ness :) would you settle for asking people to start a new thread? l. From zapper at openmailbox.org Wed May 10 20:02:06 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 15:02:06 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On 05/10/2017 02:23 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > > > On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 7:46 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > wrote: > > > > now that i think about it, i believe i heard of something about 20 > years ago called the humanist society (or something like that). > apparently they live their lives according to a really quite [humane] > wonderful "code"... just without the bits about "god" attached. > > so i'd say definitively yes, you can... it's just that you'd have to > choose to do so, and that can be really tough, to research, assess and > then make the decision to adhere to a particular code. it means > making changes in your life which might cost you friends, your job > (because the company asks you to do something that is against your > newly-chosen "code")... > > > > Exactly this. I always prefer to do something by choice. Being > manipulated is the one thing that I hate the most in life. But this > takes time, and I have come to a very similar conclusion to this > society you are talking about, that following 95% of the Christian > ethics is a good idea because it makes for the most benefit for the > society as a total. But I find having to believe that god exists and > he will punish me for not following these ethics in order to be able > follow them utterly pointless. Well, I would say its not about, following these ethics perfectly, it is impossible to do so. I would say the act of trying to be a good person and being faithful to him for the goodness he gives you is more important than always obeying especially if your heart is far from him. That's just my thought. Punishment in particular though is something he gives to arrogant people who defy him while pretending to obey. the current conservative party in America is an example of the pharisees from the bible. They have nothing to look forward to that's a fact. Though they reject such possibilities in their heart bitterly and cling to their evil thoughts. To be honest, even atheists have a better chance of getting into heaven than those false teachers. Though both sides if they don't repent at some point, are lost. This is my understanding of what hell is for. Not for the average person, but for those who pretend they are good and really are the opposite. to sum it up, hypocrisy. Life is a challenge but hypocrisy is unneeded. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vincent.legoll at gmail.com Wed May 10 20:04:53 2017 From: vincent.legoll at gmail.com (Vincent Legoll) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 21:04:53 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Could you also add something about staying on-topic, thanks. > > awww! i quite _like_ the horrendous straying off-topic-ness :) OK, your call... > would you settle for asking people to start a new thread? Nope, I prefer when people follow the rules by themselves, I'm not doing ML-police. -- Vincent Legoll From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 20:08:19 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 20:08:19 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 7:23 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > Exactly this. I always prefer to do something by choice. Being manipulated > is the one thing that I hate the most in life. But this takes time, and I > have come to a very similar conclusion to this society you are talking > about, that following 95% of the Christian ethics is a good idea because it > makes for the most benefit for the society as a total. f***'n-A :) > But I find having to > believe that god exists and he will punish me for not following these ethics > in order to be able follow them utterly pointless. yyeah no i can definitely say that (in an indirect and complex-to-explain way) i'm what some people would define as "a christian" and (again in an indirect and comprehensive-and-complex-to-explain way) also definitely believe in what some people would define as "god", the "personal punishment" thing which characterised much of the past two thousand years is a total fucking load of horse-shit, plain and simple. change of direction-of-topic (slightly): there's an insight that occurred to me after entering an essay contest about whether intelligence is an emergent property or not. i basically said "yes it is", and then began describing how. if you take the classic "maxwell's demon" but modify it so that: * the demon can move at a rate that's proportional to its size * its survival is dependent on "eating" the gas at a rate again that's proportional to its size * the "gas" is initially uniformly and infinitely distributed throughout the demon's "universe" * there are lots of "demons" that have to compete for their "food" (gas). * the "gas" can, in large enough concentrations, be toxic. * the distribution of the "gas" can locally change (like high and low pressures on a planet's weather) now run that as a universe for a bit. what you find is that there will be emergent intelligent behaviour - entropy *will* be beaten - *not* because it was *deliberately designed in* but because of the *evolutionary process*. to whit: any of the demons that do *not* evolve to have intelligent behaviour will *die* - plain and simple. one very important thing which emerges from this is that entropy gets beaten in the medium known as "gas" because the demons will end up collaborating to *REMOVE* (reduce) the concentration of gas from their environment. the next logical step in the chain was to analyse this emergent evolutionary process "in general", and to conclude that the intelligence is *NOT* a "birthright of humanity" as humans like to arrogantly believe, but is instead an *inherent property of the underlying fabric of the universe itself*. *intelligence* is an inherent property of the fabric of the universe, and we (and all intelligent beings) simply "borrow" that capacity by being *in* the universe. which is something that never really occurred to me before and i find to be utterly, utterly cool. now, if you want to throw "god" in there in some fashion that's entirely up to you, but in doing so it really doesn't have very much to do with the logic or the conclusion. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 20:13:32 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 20:13:32 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:02 PM, zap wrote: > To be honest, even atheists have a better chance of getting into heaven than > those false teachers. *cackle* :) > Life is a challenge but hypocrisy is unneeded. it always makes me wonder, what do people get out of being hypocritical (on a regular and deliberate basis? making mistakes, sure, i can understand, but deliberately and consistently remaining cognitively dissonant? i don't get it. *why* would someone choose that? what are they "getting out of it"? what "reward" are they getting from continuing to persistently and consistently be hypocritical? l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 20:17:42 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 20:17:42 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Vincent Legoll wrote: >>> Could you also add something about staying on-topic, thanks. >> >> awww! i quite _like_ the horrendous straying off-topic-ness :) > > OK, your call... it is... but that's just me. let me put it another way: what benefit would it bring to this list, and what would we lose, to ask people to stay on-topic? serious question. if we're to make such a far-reaching change to the operation of the list, it really does need to be discussed and analysed, what would be the consequences. >> would you settle for asking people to start a new thread? > > Nope, I prefer when people follow the rules by themselves, I'm > not doing ML-police. luckily you don't have to: that's my role :) l. From zapper at openmailbox.org Wed May 10 22:23:14 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 17:23:14 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On 05/10/2017 03:13 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:02 PM, zap wrote: > >> To be honest, even atheists have a better chance of getting into heaven than >> those false teachers. > *cackle* :) > I thought someone would enjoy that sad irony. but yeah if you want to know why I say that is sad, it is this: it is sad because they think they will be rewarded at the end. But they already have their temporary very short term reward. Though they deserve it, I feel a mixture of pity and anger towards them. >> Life is a challenge but hypocrisy is unneeded. > it always makes me wonder, what do people get out of being > hypocritical (on a regular and deliberate basis? making mistakes, > sure, i can understand, but deliberately and consistently remaining > cognitively dissonant? i don't get it. *why* would someone choose > that? what are they "getting out of it"? what "reward" are they > getting from continuing to persistently and consistently be > hypocritical? The only thing they will get long term is to grovel in the dust for their arrogance and boastful ways. I used to be like that in my mind to some extent, but out of mostly ignorance, I suffered greatly for it, but I cannot imagine what happens to people who consistently are hypocrites. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From zapper at openmailbox.org Wed May 10 22:24:43 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 17:24:43 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9704eb44-bcba-fc78-7d27-16183b67280f@openmailbox.org> On 05/10/2017 03:17 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Vincent Legoll > wrote: >>>> Could you also add something about staying on-topic, thanks. >>> awww! i quite _like_ the horrendous straying off-topic-ness :) >> OK, your call... > it is... but that's just me. let me put it another way: what benefit > would it bring to this list, and what would we lose, to ask people to > stay on-topic? serious question. if we're to make such a > far-reaching change to the operation of the list, it really does need > to be discussed and analysed, what would be the consequences. > >>> would you settle for asking people to start a new thread? >> Nope, I prefer when people follow the rules by themselves, I'm >> not doing ML-police. > luckily you don't have to: that's my role :) I am curious, should we refocus on some of the pressing issues? such as the rk3288 and the rk3399? hehehe. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From zapper at openmailbox.org Wed May 10 22:29:57 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 17:29:57 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: <9704eb44-bcba-fc78-7d27-16183b67280f@openmailbox.org> References: <9704eb44-bcba-fc78-7d27-16183b67280f@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: <3917cd3a-075d-a7d8-e121-f5a33c93b649@openmailbox.org> On 05/10/2017 05:24 PM, zap wrote: > > On 05/10/2017 03:17 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> --- >> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >> >> >> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Vincent Legoll >> wrote: >>>>> Could you also add something about staying on-topic, thanks. >>>> awww! i quite _like_ the horrendous straying off-topic-ness :) >>> OK, your call... >> it is... but that's just me. let me put it another way: what benefit >> would it bring to this list, and what would we lose, to ask people to >> stay on-topic? serious question. if we're to make such a >> far-reaching change to the operation of the list, it really does need >> to be discussed and analysed, what would be the consequences. >> >>>> would you settle for asking people to start a new thread? >>> Nope, I prefer when people follow the rules by themselves, I'm >>> not doing ML-police. >> luckily you don't have to: that's my role :) > I am curious, should we refocus on some of the pressing issues? > > such as the rk3288 and the rk3399? hehehe. ps, I know I am to blame for some of the off topic discussions so I apologize if its getting too off topic, I am curious though, how far have you gotten Luke with the a20 version, etc, >> l. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 23:44:29 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 23:44:29 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 10:23 PM, zap wrote: > it is sad because they think they will be rewarded at the end. But they > already have their temporary very short term reward. Though they deserve > it, I feel a mixture of pity and anger towards them. steady, zap: i struggle with anger towards people who've betrayed me (etc.) - so i'm not the person to say "don't do that"... even though i know it's doing *me* harm to be so angry i can't even sleep at night, sometimes. what i would like to say is: f you manage to get your anger under control, do tell me how you managed it, ok? :) l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 23:46:40 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 23:46:40 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: <9704eb44-bcba-fc78-7d27-16183b67280f@openmailbox.org> References: <9704eb44-bcba-fc78-7d27-16183b67280f@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 10:24 PM, zap wrote: > I am curious, should we refocus on some of the pressing issues? > > such as the rk3288 and the rk3399? hehehe. :) if i didn't have time i would leave these discussions alone... except if i thought they were important. i'm waiting for some boards to be done and arrive from china, and am re-focussing on the 3D printing. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 10 23:48:18 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 23:48:18 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: <3917cd3a-075d-a7d8-e121-f5a33c93b649@openmailbox.org> References: <9704eb44-bcba-fc78-7d27-16183b67280f@openmailbox.org> <3917cd3a-075d-a7d8-e121-f5a33c93b649@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 10:29 PM, zap wrote: > I am curious though, how far have you gotten Luke with the a20 version, etc, no change: waiting is waiting. send board off, wait for 2-4 weeks for it to be done. nothing i can do in the meantime, absolutely nothing i can do to speed it up (and asking costs money and often gets WORSE quality as they rush it). that's just how hardware is. l. From ismo.vaananen at gmail.com Thu May 11 01:05:24 2017 From: ismo.vaananen at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?SXNtbyBWw6TDpG7DpG5lbg==?=) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 03:05:24 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card Message-ID: Hello, The recent talk about de-blobbing R8 and thus also GR8 inspired me to do a quick write up on how I see a Next Thing Co. GR8 System-In-Package chip being used in an EOMA68 compatible card. The latest version of the write up can be found here: https://sites.google.com/site/oh2ftg/eoma68/eoma68-gr8 I named the project "EOMA68-GR8" because why not. Like Vincent I'm doing this on the side and also with Altium. I haven't done anything this complex in Altium before it's likely going to be an interesting challenge. GR8 has TTL/RGB LCD interface, USB2.0, I2C, SPI(SDMMC) and so on. All the interfaces to make a compute card compatible with EOMA68 are there. Except if I want the card to have "front facing" USB I'll need to include some USB HUB chip like TI TUSB2046, which conveniently has no firmware being a state machine. I'll have to look at how the interrupts go, at AXP209 PMIC and it's routing. And decide on if I'll layout the NAND as the talk about blobs being required for NAND support sounds worrying. That and seeing in general if even a half reasonable layout is possible on 4-layer FR4 to get cheaper rates on the pcb's. At least there's no DDR RAM to route, but the TTL/RGB fanout and length matching is gona be chore. One more good reason to learn how the automated length matching in Altium works. Sourcing connectors and housings in small quantities. All that fun stuff. If anything I have missed comes to mind please mention it, I'd rather hear it now then when I have prototype pcb's at hand or layout nearly done. Cheers, Ismo Väänänen de OH2FTG alias 2ftg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zapper at openmailbox.org Thu May 11 01:13:14 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 20:13:14 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <68c58a99-8578-19a8-4ce8-d330bbd2d18c@openmailbox.org> On 05/10/2017 06:44 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 10:23 PM, zap wrote: > >> it is sad because they think they will be rewarded at the end. But they >> already have their temporary very short term reward. Though they deserve >> it, I feel a mixture of pity and anger towards them. > steady, zap: i struggle with anger towards people who've betrayed me > (etc.) - so i'm not the person to say "don't do that"... even though i > know it's doing *me* harm to be so angry i can't even sleep at night, > sometimes. what i would like to say is: f you manage to get your > anger under control, do tell me how you managed it, ok? :) Like all things, it is a work in progress, but I try to humble myself and accept the reality that though I can become something very great, boasting of my accomplishments does nothing but cause me to get buried. The more I boast the deeper the hole. That isn't the only thing that digs a hole of course, but it is the first step to becoming something vile. so yeah... My fuse has greatly lengthened in many ways before I do something foolish. All in all, it takes time, learning to humble ones self, and controlling my ego/pride. Pride is the first step before most evil actions at least that is why I think. That's my thoughts on this. ;) > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From zapper at openmailbox.org Thu May 11 01:14:23 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 20:14:23 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: References: <9704eb44-bcba-fc78-7d27-16183b67280f@openmailbox.org> <3917cd3a-075d-a7d8-e121-f5a33c93b649@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: <3b3a3c43-8754-7ef9-feef-9918729c4163@openmailbox.org> On 05/10/2017 06:48 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 10:29 PM, zap wrote: > >> I am curious though, how far have you gotten Luke with the a20 version, etc, > no change: waiting is waiting. send board off, wait for 2-4 weeks > for it to be done. nothing i can do in the meantime, absolutely > nothing i can do to speed it up (and asking costs money and often gets > WORSE quality as they rush it). > > that's just how hardware is. Ah, I guess I need to pay attention to the threads more, I had thought you not talking about anymore recently was a good sign... oh well. > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From zapper at openmailbox.org Thu May 11 01:16:06 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 20:16:06 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49c6a5f2-2856-5b6b-7be2-be0bca7a6a6d@openmailbox.org> On 05/10/2017 08:05 PM, Ismo Väänänen wrote: > Hello, > > The recent talk about de-blobbing R8 and thus also GR8 inspired me to > do a quick write up on how I see a Next Thing Co. GR8 > System-In-Package chip being used in an EOMA68 compatible card. > The latest version of the write up can be found here: > https://sites.google.com/site/oh2ftg/eoma68/eoma68-gr8 > > I named the project "EOMA68-GR8" because why not. > > Like Vincent I'm doing this on the side and also with Altium. > I haven't done anything this complex in Altium before it's likely > going to be an interesting challenge. > > GR8 has TTL/RGB LCD interface, USB2.0, I2C, SPI(SDMMC) and so on. > All the interfaces to make a compute card compatible with EOMA68 are > there. > Except if I want the card to have "front facing" USB I'll need to > include some USB HUB chip like TI TUSB2046, which conveniently has no > firmware being a state machine. > > I'll have to look at how the interrupts go, at AXP209 PMIC and it's > routing. > And decide on if I'll layout the NAND as the talk about blobs being > required for NAND support sounds worrying. That and seeing in general > if even a half reasonable layout is possible on 4-layer FR4 to get > cheaper rates on the pcb's. At least there's no DDR RAM to route, but > the TTL/RGB fanout and length matching is gona be chore. > One more good reason to learn how the automated length matching in > Altium works. > > Sourcing connectors and housings in small quantities. All that fun stuff. > > If anything I have missed comes to mind please mention it, I'd rather > hear it now then when I have prototype pcb's at hand or layout nearly > done. > Good luck to you sir! > Cheers, > Ismo Väänänen de OH2FTG alias 2ftg > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Thu May 11 01:27:23 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 20:27:23 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <20170511002723.GA15396@topoi.pooq.com> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 05:46:23PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > I'm an atheist whose basic emotional attitude is anger against God for > > not existing. > > hendrik, i have to be honest: don't take it the wrong way ok, but i > found this very very funny. windmills?? chearrrrge!! :) it's like, > if you _did_ believe in god you'd be castigated and Sent to Helllll > for having a negatve emotion called "anger", but *come on* man: if you > believe *god doesn't exist* what the heck are you doing damaging your > psyche by bothering to be angry! about something that in your mind > *doesn't exist*! > > beautifully ironic :) Exactly. You get it. Intellectual understanding and emotions can be in conflict. It's the way we are built. I recognise the resulting contradictions, accept them, recognise I'm not perfect, and get along the best I can, using emotions and intellect as guides. -- hendrik From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Thu May 11 01:30:46 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 20:30:46 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170511003045.GB15396@topoi.pooq.com> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 07:38:22PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > awww! i quite _like_ the horrendous straying off-topic-ness :) > would you settle for asking people to start a new thread? Or at least change the subject line when the subject changes? -- hendrik From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Thu May 11 05:22:50 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 07:22:50 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69478D38-34F9-488E-8EB4-ED69B75B4B67@gmail.com> Do it! The more cards the merrier. On 11 May 2017 03:05:24 GMT+03:00, "Ismo Väänänen" wrote: >Hello, > >The recent talk about de-blobbing R8 and thus also GR8 inspired me to >do a >quick write up on how I see a Next Thing Co. GR8 System-In-Package chip >being used in an EOMA68 compatible card. >The latest version of the write up can be found here: >https://sites.google.com/site/oh2ftg/eoma68/eoma68-gr8 > >I named the project "EOMA68-GR8" because why not. > >Like Vincent I'm doing this on the side and also with Altium. >I haven't done anything this complex in Altium before it's likely going >to >be an interesting challenge. > >GR8 has TTL/RGB LCD interface, USB2.0, I2C, SPI(SDMMC) and so on. >All the interfaces to make a compute card compatible with EOMA68 are >there. >Except if I want the card to have "front facing" USB I'll need to >include >some USB HUB chip like TI TUSB2046, which conveniently has no firmware >being a state machine. > >I'll have to look at how the interrupts go, at AXP209 PMIC and it's >routing. >And decide on if I'll layout the NAND as the talk about blobs being >required for NAND support sounds worrying. That and seeing in general >if >even a half reasonable layout is possible on 4-layer FR4 to get cheaper >rates on the pcb's. At least there's no DDR RAM to route, but the >TTL/RGB >fanout and length matching is gona be chore. >One more good reason to learn how the automated length matching in >Altium >works. > >Sourcing connectors and housings in small quantities. All that fun >stuff. > >If anything I have missed comes to mind please mention it, I'd rather >hear >it now then when I have prototype pcb's at hand or layout nearly done. > >Cheers, >Ismo Väänänen de OH2FTG alias 2ftg -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Thu May 11 06:36:23 2017 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 00:36:23 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 2:08 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > the next logical step in the chain was to analyse this emergent > evolutionary process "in general", and to conclude that the > intelligence is *NOT* a "birthright of humanity" as humans like to > arrogantly believe, but is instead an *inherent property of the > underlying fabric of the universe itself*. > > *intelligence* is an inherent property of the fabric of the universe, > and we (and all intelligent beings) simply "borrow" that capacity by > being *in* the universe. which is something that never really > occurred to me before and i find to be utterly, utterly cool. > > now, if you want to throw "god" in there in some fashion that's > entirely up to you, but in doing so it really doesn't have very much > to do with the logic or the conclusion. > I'm usually too shy and unsure of myself to actually talk about religion, but what you are saying here resonants with my beliefs. I was raised LDS/Mormon, though I've never been a particularly good example of piety. Personal experience tells me that at least some of the doctrine is true. Right now I'd rather look at the theology (or my interpretation of it), and not about it's truth. > intelligence is *NOT* a "birthright of humanity" as humans like to > arrogantly believe, but is instead an *inherent property of the > underlying fabric of the universe itself*. This is my belief. Intelligence IS a fundamental part of the universe. Humans have a great deal more of it than most things, however. The story behind this takes some exposition. God, to a member of the LDS church is not the intelligence as you said, but *a* intelligence. We are also intelligences, or spirits. We are, spiritually speaking, children of God - he created us out of intelligence, creation meaning to organize. Spirit/intelligence is also a type of matter, but finer than anything we have made as a species can detect. So humans have spirits, created by God out of intelligence. So does everything, in fact, but only humans are like God. There's a whole lot more that I could go into, but it's rather late. I don't know how all of you will receive this, but I thought it was important to say something :) Just be gentle ripping this apart, ok? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Thu May 11 06:49:37 2017 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 00:49:37 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: <69478D38-34F9-488E-8EB4-ED69B75B4B67@gmail.com> References: <69478D38-34F9-488E-8EB4-ED69B75B4B67@gmail.com> Message-ID: I had this same idea just today, though I doubt I would have gotten even this far. Go for it! I believe I originally brought it up, in the context of an EOMA50 card, but an EOMA68 card would probably be more immediately useful. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andreas at grapentin.org Thu May 11 07:34:26 2017 From: andreas at grapentin.org (Andreas Grapentin) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 08:34:26 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> (I sent this message before, but I suspect it didn't get delivered because I wasn't subscribed to the mailing list, so here I go again.) Hello everyone, I represent the hackers in charge of maintaining the parabola ARM port. As you know, the 'libre tea' computer card will be shipped with parabola preinstalled, and we are currently working hard on getting our ARM port in shape. Unfortunately, at the moment we have two problems: a) lack of compute resources - we need some actual ARM boards of the right architecture to build - and especially test - packages b) lack of information - we don't know enough about the particularities of the EOMA68 cards to be able to tell how well our port works on them Hence my question: would be possible for us to get early access to a couple of the EOMA68 devices in advance, so that we can make sure that our ARM port is up and running when the cards are to be shipped? We are very excited about this project (many of us have actually pre-ordered cards), and we want to be able to deliver the best possible version of our GNU/Linux distribution that we can produce. Best, Andreas -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ my GPG Public Key: https://files.grapentin.org/.gpg/public.key ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 488 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mike.valk at gmail.com Thu May 11 07:49:08 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 08:49:08 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: 2017-05-11 0:44 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 10:23 PM, zap wrote: > > > it is sad because they think they will be rewarded at the end. But they > > already have their temporary very short term reward. Though they deserve > > it, I feel a mixture of pity and anger towards them. > > steady, zap: i struggle with anger towards people who've betrayed me > (etc.) - so i'm not the person to say "don't do that"... even though i > know it's doing *me* harm to be so angry i can't even sleep at night, > sometimes. what i would like to say is: f you manage to get your > anger under control, do tell me how you managed it, ok? :) > If the effect is not immediate we have the tendency to ignore. "I'm driving 200Km/h on the high way without crashing for four days so what's the problem? Let's up it another 10" When other people do things that "hurt" you the first reaction might be anger. We immediately think that they hurt us on purpose. But in fact 70-90% time they are just doing what suits them. Not on purpose to you and blissfully unaware of the effects it has on you. You vent you anger and hurt them back. Only to be repaid with more hurting and anger. So anger might not be your best response. It is however a natural one. Just like tensing on impact while release might be a better one. But beware of the trap that you disallow yourself to feel hurt because they didn't do it on purpose. They did hurt you and they need to stop their behavior even though it might be even unconsciously. With hurt I mean it in a widest sense every form of mental of physical pain on any level from touch to damage, from discomfort to inability. The mental pain is a perceived one and with change of perception you can alleviate the pain. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lyberta at lyberta.net Thu May 11 07:57:00 2017 From: lyberta at lyberta.net (Lyberta) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 06:57:00 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <693b5c2a-f9fc-d68b-c8e2-4216db32b7ed@lyberta.net> Hendrik Boom: > But i have noticed that, true or false, a lot of people are helped by > belief in God. So the scientific question becomes, what is it that > actually helps them if God does not exist?? Well, I have found that critical thinking is the most important thing for consciousness. If you start intentionally limiting your thoughts, you lose the freedom of mind. Believing in religion is like buying Apple's iPhone. Sure, it's shiny, it has apps, you may feel good about yourself. But most people don't understand how much they sacrifice by using it. Like downloading apps not from Apple Store or not be constantly surveilled. > So you don't know if he exists, but you hate the idea of religion. Religion is the cause of most homophobia and transphobia in the world. LGBT people get executed by ISIS, get imprisoned by Chechens and get discriminated in most of the world. Trump has said that he considers passing a "religious freedom" law that will allow businesses to discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation or gender identity. I don't care what mad thoughts religious people have in their minds but when they open their mouth and let these thoughts outside, they become my enemies. zap: > I would say the act of trying to be a good person and being faithful to > him for the goodness he gives you is more important than always obeying > especially if your heart is far from him. That's just my thought. So God is a he? Why not she? Why do you think God has gender at all? Being a transgender woman really made me understand how men get so much for free and are treated as superior gender. This made me a radical feminist. Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton: > now run that as a universe for a bit. what you find is that there > will be emergent intelligent behaviour - entropy *will* be beaten - > *not* because it was *deliberately designed in* but because of the > *evolutionary process*. Exactly. I've been making bots for Team Fortress 2 and after stopping development I wanted to take reusable code into separate library. So I've started thinking what code is useful for a general purpose AI and after several years of brainstorming the most fundamental learning algorithm I have come to the conclusion that it is random mutations and natural selection. If we make our AI explore randomly in algorithmic space, given enough time, it will solve any solvable problem. Sure, this is the most inefficient algorithm, but it is universal. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 11 08:04:47 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 08:04:47 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: <20170511003045.GB15396@topoi.pooq.com> References: <20170511003045.GB15396@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 1:30 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 07:38:22PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> >> awww! i quite _like_ the horrendous straying off-topic-ness :) >> would you settle for asking people to start a new thread? > > Or at least change the subject line when the subject changes? yehyeh, that's what i meant From valhalla-l at trueelena.org Thu May 11 08:51:41 2017 From: valhalla-l at trueelena.org (Elena ``of Valhalla'') Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 09:51:41 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <693b5c2a-f9fc-d68b-c8e2-4216db32b7ed@lyberta.net> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> <693b5c2a-f9fc-d68b-c8e2-4216db32b7ed@lyberta.net> Message-ID: <20170511075141.qxtjt3qd4gzebemu@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> On 2017-05-11 at 06:57:00 +0000, Lyberta wrote: > Believing in religion is like buying Apple's iPhone. Sure, it's shiny, > it has apps, you may feel good about yourself. But most people don't > understand how much they sacrifice by using it. Like downloading apps > not from Apple Store or not be constantly surveilled. Well, some people have faith, and they don't have a choice in having it or not. Personally I feel it's like having another sense like smell: imprecise, prone to misunderstanding, but it's there and those who have it cannot deny that they feel something. Did I mention "imprecise"? Understanding *what* that something is is a whole different matter, and historically lots of people who claimed who know have been proved (or strongly suspected) to lie for their own advantage. > Religion is the cause of most homophobia and transphobia in the world. > LGBT people get executed by ISIS, get imprisoned by Chechens and get > discriminated in most of the world. well, not really. power and lust for it is the cause of most *phobia in the world; homosexual and trans people are among the minorities that are currently used as an easy target to turn people's insatisfaction with the current situation on, like in the past it was the jews (and homosexuals, and jehowa's witnesses, etc) in germany, the japanese in the US during the war and the communists afterwards, etc. Some of it uses the excuse of religion, some of race, some of politics, but the shared factor is that they are all minorities that are big enough to be visible, but small enough that the people in power (or who want to get in power) don't feel them as a danger. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' From fuumind at openmailbox.org Thu May 11 08:57:04 2017 From: fuumind at openmailbox.org (fuumind) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 09:57:04 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <20170511095704.61b99bf07c1ec783f7bd9c64@openmailbox.org> On Wed, 10 May 2017 17:46:23 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > now that i think about it, i believe i heard of something about 20 > years ago called the humanist society (or something like that). > apparently they live their lives according to a really quite [humane] ... [humane] ... Another wordplay Luke? I can see two levels of p(h)un. :) > wonderful "code"... just without the bits about "god" attached. > > so i'd say definitively yes, you can... it's just that you'd have to > choose to do so, and that can be really tough, to research, assess and > then make the decision to adhere to a particular code. it means > making changes in your life which might cost you friends, your job > (because the company asks you to do something that is against your > newly-chosen "code")... > > now, what wasn't clear in your question was whether you were asking > about the *internal dialogue* that one might have with oneself to > replicate the same *effects* as "belief in code" or whether you could > have meant specifically the *external appearance* i.e. the > improvements in *other people's* lives that your new [atheist but > humane] "code" has. For me as a christian the very essence of my faith is my relationship with God. It's like having a parent that you'd trust with your life and a friend that you hang out with all the time and share *everything* with and so much more I can't describe. Trying to replace that with a sense of moral obligation towards your fellow human beings (which in itself is a good thing) is, well, futile. That's the way I see it. > > very cool question, hendrik. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk /fuumind From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 11 09:18:51 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 09:18:51 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] 11may2017 - waiting for PCBs, doing 3D printing / printers Message-ID: ok so quick status update: * microdesktop v1.7 pcb: done. can go to production * microdesktop case design: 2nd revision needs to be tested * laptop PCB1: PCB's made, at factory, needs assembly * laptop PCB2: PCB's made, at factory, needs assembly. * laptop PCB3: spotted a flaw, needs a 5V power regulator added plus a way to do dual-power. * laptop PCB4 (actually for a new design "All-in-one PC"), PCB's made, at factory, needs assembly * EOMA68-A20 revision 2.7.4: PCB's made, at factory, components being ordered, needs assembly. * 3D printer from taobao: totally rubbish. undergoing MAJOR redesign just to recover the parts. * Anycubic 3D printer from aliexpress: works okay, max print speed 50mm/sec, it's "doing the job" * Research into new design of 3D printer started: http://reprap.org/wiki/Riki200 * EOMA68-iMX7 started with vincent: files to be handed over soon. i think that's most things. most of it is "waiting". for the laptop PCBs it'll be a few more weeks, then i'll be able to test out the new Frida 2.8in LCD, see if that's good. i also still have to test the passthrough card and check its HDMI conversion before sending it out for a new revision. designing a new 3D printer is a surprise but i feel it's essential. at least 10 3D printers need to be bought, and they need to be decent quality at a budget of around $USD 200 to 250. now if that means i have to design an actual 3D printing board to meet that budget then it's easily justifiable thanks to the numbers. i think what i will do is put the printer onto a crowdfunding campaign: if i'm making 10 already then if there's even one more person who wants one that's good enough. one thing that's completely awesome and a drop-in upgrade: the Flex3Drive direct-drive adapter: https://flex3drive.com/product/flex3drive-direct-drive-adaptor/ this basically drops into place of a standard NEMA17 so is far far lighter in weight, then there's a flexible driveshaft on a 40:1 wormdrive so the motor is static. you get the best of both bowden *and* direct drive, *without* the disadvantages of either, *and* a far higher gear ratio, in one fell swoop. totally awesome and a real simple decision to adopt. l. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Thu May 11 09:41:34 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 11:41:34 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> Yes Luke has a list somewhere for devs who want early access on his site. How many cards do you need? On 11 May 2017 09:34:26 GMT+03:00, Andreas Grapentin wrote: > >(I sent this message before, but I suspect it didn't get delivered >because I wasn't subscribed to the mailing list, so here I go again.) > > >Hello everyone, > >I represent the hackers in charge of maintaining the parabola ARM port. > >As you know, the 'libre tea' computer card will be shipped with >parabola >preinstalled, and we are currently working hard on getting our ARM port >in >shape. Unfortunately, at the moment we have two problems: > > a) lack of compute resources - we need some actual ARM boards of the > right architecture to build - and especially test - packages > >b) lack of information - we don't know enough about the particularities > of the EOMA68 cards to be able to tell how well our port works on them > > >Hence my question: would be possible for us to get early access to a >couple of the EOMA68 devices in advance, so that we can make sure that >our ARM port is up and running when the cards are to be shipped? > >We are very excited about this project (many of us have actually >pre-ordered cards), and we want to be able to deliver the best possible >version of our GNU/Linux distribution that we can produce. > >Best, >Andreas > > >-- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >my GPG Public Key: >https://files.grapentin.org/.gpg/public.key >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lyberta at lyberta.net Thu May 11 09:46:00 2017 From: lyberta at lyberta.net (Lyberta) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 08:46:00 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170511075141.qxtjt3qd4gzebemu@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> <693b5c2a-f9fc-d68b-c8e2-4216db32b7ed@lyberta.net> <20170511075141.qxtjt3qd4gzebemu@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> Message-ID: <142046fa-3713-b05c-25b8-0715291564f0@lyberta.net> Elena ``of Valhalla'': > > Well, some people have faith, and they don't have a choice in having it > or not. Personally I feel it's like having another sense like smell: > imprecise, prone to misunderstanding, but it's there and those who have > it cannot deny that they feel something. Well, I had faith when I was a kid. When I grew up, I understood that it only does harm and consciously removed it from myself. It's possible. It is a choice. > well, not really. power and lust for it is the cause of most *phobia in > the world; homosexual and trans people are among the minorities that are > currently used as an easy target to turn people's insatisfaction with > the current situation on, like in the past it was the jews (and > homosexuals, and jehowa's witnesses, etc) in germany, the japanese in > the US during the war and the communists afterwards, etc. Yes, but religious people are so stupid that they accept it. People who fall into religion are usually weak-minded and prone to exploitation. That is why we must actively combat the spread of religion. We must ban all public religious practices, ban all religious holidays, we must destroy churches. While I'm usually for freedom of thought, the spread of religious thought does extreme harm to society. That's why we have prisons in even most democratic countries. Because some people pose enough harm to deny them freedom. Religious people are exactly like that. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From zapper at openmailbox.org Thu May 11 10:22:20 2017 From: zapper at openmailbox.org (zap) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 05:22:20 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <142046fa-3713-b05c-25b8-0715291564f0@lyberta.net> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> <693b5c2a-f9fc-d68b-c8e2-4216db32b7ed@lyberta.net> <20170511075141.qxtjt3qd4gzebemu@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> <142046fa-3713-b05c-25b8-0715291564f0@lyberta.net> Message-ID: <6782b687-4d61-8df8-f6d1-5b66df66a6fa@openmailbox.org> On 05/11/2017 04:46 AM, Lyberta wrote: > Elena ``of Valhalla'': >> Well, some people have faith, and they don't have a choice in having it >> or not. Personally I feel it's like having another sense like smell: >> imprecise, prone to misunderstanding, but it's there and those who have >> it cannot deny that they feel something. > Well, I had faith when I was a kid. When I grew up, I understood that it > only does harm and consciously removed it from myself. It's possible. It > is a choice. I am sorry that you suffered because of having faith, I wish it didn't go down like that. > >> well, not really. power and lust for it is the cause of most *phobia in >> the world; homosexual and trans people are among the minorities that are >> currently used as an easy target to turn people's insatisfaction with >> the current situation on, like in the past it was the jews (and >> homosexuals, and jehowa's witnesses, etc) in germany, the japanese in >> the US during the war and the communists afterwards, etc. > Yes, but religious people are so stupid that they accept it. People who > fall into religion are usually weak-minded and prone to exploitation. > That is why we must actively combat the spread of religion. We must ban > all public religious practices, ban all religious holidays, we must > destroy churches. While I'm usually for freedom of thought, the spread > of religious thought does extreme harm to society. That's why we have > prisons in even most democratic countries. Because some people pose > enough harm to deny them freedom. Religious people are exactly like that. I should probably tell you that I am a liberal and a socialist. I do not support judging others especially minorities. If being gay is a sin, then that's gods job to punish not mine. There are greater threats regardless of if gay is a sin or not, I do not personally like the idea, but its not my place to judge. So yeah... > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cnxsoft at cnx-software.com Thu May 11 10:38:28 2017 From: cnxsoft at cnx-software.com (CNX Software) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 16:38:28 +0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wouldn't the PCMCIA card thickness be an issue when using a CPU module? On 05/11/2017 07:05 AM, Ismo Väänänen wrote: > Hello, > > The recent talk about de-blobbing R8 and thus also GR8 inspired me to > do a quick write up on how I see a Next Thing Co. GR8 > System-In-Package chip being used in an EOMA68 compatible card. > The latest version of the write up can be found here: > https://sites.google.com/site/oh2ftg/eoma68/eoma68-gr8 > > I named the project "EOMA68-GR8" because why not. > > Like Vincent I'm doing this on the side and also with Altium. > I haven't done anything this complex in Altium before it's likely > going to be an interesting challenge. > > GR8 has TTL/RGB LCD interface, USB2.0, I2C, SPI(SDMMC) and so on. > All the interfaces to make a compute card compatible with EOMA68 are > there. > Except if I want the card to have "front facing" USB I'll need to > include some USB HUB chip like TI TUSB2046, which conveniently has no > firmware being a state machine. > > I'll have to look at how the interrupts go, at AXP209 PMIC and it's > routing. > And decide on if I'll layout the NAND as the talk about blobs being > required for NAND support sounds worrying. That and seeing in general > if even a half reasonable layout is possible on 4-layer FR4 to get > cheaper rates on the pcb's. At least there's no DDR RAM to route, but > the TTL/RGB fanout and length matching is gona be chore. > One more good reason to learn how the automated length matching in > Altium works. > > Sourcing connectors and housings in small quantities. All that fun stuff. > > If anything I have missed comes to mind please mention it, I'd rather > hear it now then when I have prototype pcb's at hand or layout nearly > done. > > Cheers, > Ismo Väänänen de OH2FTG alias 2ftg > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu May 11 10:46:09 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 05:46:09 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On 5/10/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > *intelligence* is an inherent property of the fabric of the universe, > and we (and all intelligent beings) simply "borrow" that capacity by > being *in* the universe. which is something that never really > occurred to me before and i find to be utterly, utterly cool. That resonates a bit with what I said earlier. For conflict to exist their must be aims. I believe their to be a strange element to the underlining universe which "sifts the sands" so-to-speak to spontaneously generate material "loops" and then again "sifts the sands" so-to-speak to spontaneously generate incremental degrees of awareness. One could argue intelligence is just to be an evolution of approach towards one's aims. > now, if you want to throw "god" in there in some fashion that's > entirely up to you, but in doing so it really doesn't have very much > to do with the logic or the conclusion. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Thu May 11 10:47:01 2017 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 23:47:01 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <9ea00cb4-8e21-e825-9678-9403607edcbc@FineArtMarquetry.com> On 10/05/17 20:49, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > But beware of the trap that you disallow yourself to feel hurt because > they didn't do it on purpose. They did hurt you and they need to stop > their behavior even though it might be even unconsciously. Yes and no. If they didn't do it on purpose, and didn't mean to hurt, you might as well let the hurt go and forgive them. That doesn't mean it isn't a good idea to let them know that it does hurt, so they can be aware of it in the future. > > With hurt I mean it in a widest sense every form of mental of physical > pain on any level from touch to damage, from discomfort to inability. The gradations of hurt you mention here are very real, and at the same time, for many it may be that they might be similarly hurt in a different way by trying to avoid hurting you. Others you mention are facts of life for some people, and the only option left in their case is to try to move on and find ways around it. I think there is a lot to the old definition that it is physical harm that is unquestionably actionable. When you get to the realm of words, the very restraint against offending another person is itself an offense. Nevertheless, you still own your words, and are responsible for them, so although a restraint punishing you merely for having said them is wrong, the consequences of saying them may not be worthwhile. Consider the classic free speech case of shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre. Per free speech you certainly have the right to say it, but chances are high that if you are believed someone will be trampled in the stampede. Should someone be trampled to death in such a case, murder charges would be appropriate. Even if you get lucky and no one is hurt, billing you for a free ticket to another show for all the people who had their show disrupted might be in order. > > The mental pain is a perceived one and with change of perception you can > alleviate the pain. This is true... and easier said than done. Well, it seems I may have further derailed the topic, but since I'm not sure how to title it so it will be easier to find in the future, and the title covers random wanderings through the weeds, I'll let it pass. :) Tor -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ 808-828-1107 GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 181 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Thu May 11 10:50:48 2017 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 23:50:48 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Solid wood corner prototype In-Reply-To: <3cc50220-fbd8-2634-6247-390fb5bf4d12@FineArtMarquetry.com> References: <456b959e-5d14-de22-e5b5-80df757b63a8@FineArtMarquetry.com> <74b9adb9-cec5-cf3b-e22c-e85029a86aaf@FineArtMarquetry.com> <494b49df-0d68-bc1e-fd9d-2a936be8f651@FineArtMarquetry.com> <3cc50220-fbd8-2634-6247-390fb5bf4d12@FineArtMarquetry.com> Message-ID: <326f90f8-9711-767d-3e7b-2202e3d8407f@FineArtMarquetry.com> I never got a reply to this message, and seeing you ready to send the microdesktop PCB to production, I thought I ought to make sure you saw it, Luke. On 30/04/17 18:36, Tor, the Marqueteur wrote: > On 30/04/17 17:47, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> i was just thinking, if you had the appropriate cutters (like a router >> / plane with different width bits) it would be possible to just run >> the parts through some sort of jig. > > This is definitely possible. With the corner design on my screen > (apparently the blue ones in the photos), all the different levels and > widths of cutout make it something I'd not want to think about doing that > way. > > Still, it looks like it could be simplified a bit. You seem to have the > PCB slot both top and bottom, which is nice for interchangeability, but > could be dispensed with. I'm thinking about other possibilities, but I > can't yet visualise fully what the tolerances are relative to the > populated PCB. > > I know revisions of the PCB are generally hard (at least if they involve > rerouting traces), but I have to ask what the implications of adding a > sixteenth to each side edge of the PCB for mounting would be. The length > front to back would remain the same. If that could be done and would > allow the full rectangle of the corner piece to be used, then there are > only two operations that would need to be done on the individual corner > piece, namely the stopped dado for the PCB (only one per corner, two > different corners) and the hole for assembly bolt. > > Tor > >> >> l. > > -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ 808-828-1107 GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ From fuumind at openmailbox.org Thu May 11 11:05:35 2017 From: fuumind at openmailbox.org (fuumind) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 12:05:35 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <20170511120535.368365ecd48aeb5778b8366a@openmailbox.org> On Wed, 10 May 2017 23:44:29 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 10:23 PM, zap wrote: > > > it is sad because they think they will be rewarded at the end. But they > > already have their temporary very short term reward. Though they deserve > > it, I feel a mixture of pity and anger towards them. > > steady, zap: i struggle with anger towards people who've betrayed me > (etc.) - so i'm not the person to say "don't do that"... even though i > know it's doing *me* harm to be so angry i can't even sleep at night, > sometimes. what i would like to say is: f you manage to get your > anger under control, do tell me how you managed it, ok? :) > > l. I've struggled with anger in the past as well and have tried to read up on the subject in order to get it under control. What I've learned so far and what has helped me is the understanding that anger is like a notificatin from within yourself that you or someone around you is not getting his or her needs met properly. Maybe you or someone else is getting bullied och treated badly at work, then the need for respect is not being met. Our job is to try to figure out what unmet needs are hidden behind the feeling of anger. When you look at anger this way it becomes a tool rather than a burden. This applies to other emotions as well, such as guilt and shame. If I remember correctly these thoughts have their roots in Nonviolent Communication. /fuumind From kyle at free2.ml Thu May 11 12:09:22 2017 From: kyle at free2.ml (Kyle) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 07:09:22 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] list posting etiquette In-Reply-To: <20170511003045.GB15396@topoi.pooq.com> References: <20170511003045.GB15396@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: Just some thoughts ... If the topic changes, starting a new thread is better than just changing the subject line, as I may not be interested in the topic that starts the thread, but if only the subject line changes and the thread doesn't change, my threaded e-mail client will usually delete messages I'm interested in along with the messages that didn't interest me at the beginning of the thread. It probably makes little difference to readers who don't use threaded mail clients, but those of us who do are greatly helped when a thread stays on topic as much as possible, and a new topic, even if it springs from a discussion on another thread, starts a new thread. That said, it can be hard to determine when a new thread should start when a new topic springs from a discussion on one thread, depending how related to the original topic the new one is, and how far it could stray in the future. In such cases, simply changing the subject line is probably sufficient. ~Kyle From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Thu May 11 13:32:50 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 08:32:50 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170511075141.qxtjt3qd4gzebemu@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> <693b5c2a-f9fc-d68b-c8e2-4216db32b7ed@lyberta.net> <20170511075141.qxtjt3qd4gzebemu@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> Message-ID: <20170511123250.GA28578@topoi.pooq.com> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 09:51:41AM +0200, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote: > > well, not really. power and lust for it is the cause of most *phobia in > the world; homosexual and trans people are among the minorities that are > currently used as an easy target to turn people's insatisfaction with > the current situation on, like in the past it was the jews (and > homosexuals, and jehowa's witnesses, etc) in germany, the japanese in > the US during the war and the communists afterwards, etc. > > Some of it uses the excuse of religion, some of race, some of politics, > but the shared factor is that they are all minorities that are big > enough to be visible, but small enough that the people in power (or who > want to get in power) don't feel them as a danger. The japanese in the US during the war were imprisoned because the people in power *did* feel them as a danger. There might be Japan-sympathisers among that minority who could sabotage the war effort, especially on the est coast. There was at least some plausibility in that fear. But the measures taken were out of proportion to the threat. -- hendrik From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 11 13:53:03 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 13:53:03 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Solid wood corner prototype Message-ID: On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Tor, the Marqueteur wrote: > I never got a reply to this message, and seeing you ready to send the > microdesktop PCB to production, I thought I ought to make sure you saw > it, Luke. i did see it - i either replied or decided i didn't have time to take up the ideas: no on doing PCB redesigns, that's for sure: it's something like $600 a shot for the layer 2 PCBs plus assembly and takes about 3 weeks. time to move on. it's only 450 units. if it was 5,000 i'd do things differently. l. From pablo at parobalth.org Thu May 11 14:54:21 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 15:54:21 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> > >Hence my question: would be possible for us to get early access to a > >couple of the EOMA68 devices in advance, so that we can make sure that > >our ARM port is up and running when the cards are to be shipped? On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 11:41:34AM +0300, Allan Mwenda wrote: > Yes Luke has a list somewhere for devs who want early access on his site. Correct. I'm going to save you the time to search the vast archive of the arm-netbook mailing list: *Begin of shortened quote* "Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 03:49:59 +0000 From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Subject: [Arm-netbook] Mainlining the EOMA68-A20 i'm just talking to my host, here in taiwan, to use his equipment to get 50 boards made up. i'll also get some RS232-UARTs and some micro-desktops made as well... or perhaps some breakout boards and the OTG-Host cables, have to see. any takers please put alias down here so i get a quick idea of numbers http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/ " *End of shortened quote* Some people including me signed up but when I last looked we are still far from 50 boards. Pablo > On 11 May 2017 09:34:26 GMT+03:00, Andreas Grapentin wrote: > > > >(I sent this message before, but I suspect it didn't get delivered > >because I wasn't subscribed to the mailing list, so here I go again.) > > > > From pablo at parobalth.org Thu May 11 15:15:11 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 16:15:11 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> <20170510142356.GB8937@pabbook> Message-ID: <20170511141511.GC4716@pabbook> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 05:05:20PM +0200, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-05-10 16:38 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > > > On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 3:23 PM, Pablo wrote: > > > > > With any non-Chip-kernel you will lose NAND support. > > > So you can either: > > > a)patch your libre kernel > > > or > > > b) ignore NAND and use flash memory via usb port. > > > > > > For b) you will need mainline U-Boot because NextThings U-Boot fork > > > supports NAND but not booting via usb. > > > > this sounds weird / not quite right. the R8 (aka A13, aka the A10) > > should be able to use the same sunxi 3.4.104+ kernel source as i've > > been using for the A20, which has the (sunxi, libre) NAND driver in > > it. afaik they didn't change the NAND hardware from the A10/A20 to > > the A13 to the R8 so this should be a non-issue. > > > > also from what i gather there's been mainline support for the > > (completely different, MTD-compatible) NAND driver for quite some > > time, so again, should be a non-issue. > > Ah, interesting. Thank you for the correction and additional input. I would be glad to be wrong here as it makes things so much easier. My knowledge is quite vague in this area and comes mainly from NextThings user forum. For example consider the following threads: https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/is-it-possible-to-boot-from-a-usb-flash-drive/3090/15 https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/can-i-run-multiple-os-on-boot/11196/5 https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/why-c-h-i-p-has-its-own-kernel-fork/1603 https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/install-kernel-via-apt-get/2467/7 https://bbs.nextthing.co/t/ntc-improving-nand-on-linux/10526 It is quite hard to distinguish between facts, guesses and outdated information. A well maintained wiki would help to complement the user forum... *sigh* > > perhaps someone could ask on #linux-sunxi and/or their mailing list > > for confirmation of the facts? Sounds like a good idea. I can't do it because I lack the technical details to ask the proper questions. > > Wiki says "work in progress" > > http://linux-sunxi.org/Mainlining_Effort > http://linux-sunxi.org/NAND (Fun facts on supported NAND) > http://linux-sunxi.org/MTD_Driver > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/linux-sunxi/mtd%7Csort:relevance > > Boris has commit access so it's probably all there since 4.7 > > His work and derivatives did touch a lot of NAND/MTD drivers though. > > Someone needs to crawl the linux kernel commits though or ask directly. Thank you for the links and details. It is a lot of new information for me. I am going to have a closer look in the next couple of days. Maybe I will run some tests on my Chip. Pablo From ismo.vaananen at gmail.com Thu May 11 16:32:08 2017 From: ismo.vaananen at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?SXNtbyBWw6TDpG7DpG5lbg==?=) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 18:32:08 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card Message-ID: >Wouldn't the PCMCIA card thickness be an issue when using a CPU module? According to the mechanical drawing on page 32 of the v1.0 GR8 datasheet the SoM is at maximum 1.12mm thick. This should fit nicely inside even the 3.5mm typeI EOMA68 case. https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP_Pro-Hardware/blob/master/Datasheets/GR8_Datasheet_v1.0.pdf -Ismo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andreas at grapentin.org Thu May 11 16:34:01 2017 From: andreas at grapentin.org (Andreas Grapentin) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 17:34:01 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> Message-ID: <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> > > Yes Luke has a list somewhere for devs who want early access on his site. > > Correct. I'm going to save you the time to search the vast archive of > the arm-netbook mailing list: Thank you very much! > *Begin of shortened quote* > "Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 03:49:59 +0000 > From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > Subject: [Arm-netbook] Mainlining the EOMA68-A20 > > i'm just talking to my host, here in taiwan, to use his equipment to > get 50 boards made up. i'll also get some RS232-UARTs and some > micro-desktops made as well... or perhaps some breakout boards and the > OTG-Host cables, have to see. > > any takers please put alias down here so i get a quick idea of numbers > http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/ " This looks very promising. I need to ask a couple more questions: Could parabola as a whole go into that list, with a to-be-determined number of cards, or would we need to name the individual hackers? We have at least three people working on the arm port, maybe more. Would asking for ~5 cards still be in the right ballpark? Would the prototypes be lent to us? donated? sold? Is there an ETA? Best, -Andreas -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ my GPG Public Key: https://files.grapentin.org/.gpg/public.key ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 488 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Thu May 11 17:04:11 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 19:04:11 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: <0CBABCB0-ABEB-44D3-992B-D8EB4006DCCB@gmail.com> Put in as many people as would be useful to your project. No other distro has come here with interest like you guys so I'd take advantage of that before it changes. Didn't you have guys working on a handheld eoma console? Get them in on it as well. On 11 May 2017 18:34:01 GMT+03:00, Andreas Grapentin wrote: > >> > Yes Luke has a list somewhere for devs who want early access on his >site. >> >> Correct. I'm going to save you the time to search the vast archive of >> the arm-netbook mailing list: > >Thank you very much! > >> *Begin of shortened quote* >> "Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 03:49:59 +0000 >> From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> Subject: [Arm-netbook] Mainlining the EOMA68-A20 >> >> i'm just talking to my host, here in taiwan, to use his equipment to >> get 50 boards made up. i'll also get some RS232-UARTs and some >> micro-desktops made as well... or perhaps some breakout boards and >the >> OTG-Host cables, have to see. >> >> any takers please put alias down here so i get a quick idea of >numbers >> http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/ " > >This looks very promising. I need to ask a couple more questions: > >Could parabola as a whole go into that list, with a to-be-determined >number of cards, or would we need to name the individual hackers? > >We have at least three people working on the arm port, maybe more. >Would >asking for ~5 cards still be in the right ballpark? > >Would the prototypes be lent to us? donated? sold? > >Is there an ETA? > >Best, >-Andreas > >-- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >my GPG Public Key: >https://files.grapentin.org/.gpg/public.key >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Thu May 11 21:48:28 2017 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 16:48:28 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> <20170510142356.GB8937@pabbook> <20170511141511.GC4716@pabbook> Message-ID: > Ah, interesting. Thank you for the correction and additional input. > I would be glad to be wrong here as it makes things so much easier. > My knowledge is quite vague in this area and comes mainly from > NextThings user forum. For example consider the following threads: If you want sound information, indeed, such forums tend to be pretty hard to use. The linux-sunxi website and mailing lists are a lot better (and a lot more technical as a consequence). You could start from http://linux-sunxi.org/NAND Stefan From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Fri May 12 07:14:01 2017 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 01:14:01 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> <20170510142356.GB8937@pabbook> <20170511141511.GC4716@pabbook> Message-ID: I don't know if you know about this or not, but there is a community wiki at http://www.chip-community.org/index.php/Main_Page It has examples on using buildroot to flash images to chip http://www.chip-community.org/index.php/Flashing_Buildroot_Image_from_Ubuntu Again, I'm clueless :P I have just received some chip pro's and I am trying to make myself a neat little MP3 player with bluetooth audio support. Found the wiki up there through some searching. This is my first foray into working with embedded linux devices as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat May 13 06:13:39 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 01:13:39 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170507151706.GA4226@pabbook> <20170508201754.GB7033@pabbook> <20170510142356.GB8937@pabbook> <20170511141511.GC4716@pabbook> Message-ID: On 5/12/17, Louis Pearson wrote: > I don't know if you know about this or not, but there is a community > wiki at http://www.chip-community.org/index.php/Main_Page > It has examples on using buildroot to flash images to chip > http://www.chip-community.org/index.php/Flashing_Buildroot_Image_from_Ubuntu > > Again, I'm clueless :P I have just received some chip pro's and I am > trying to make myself a neat little MP3 player with bluetooth audio > support. Found the wiki up there through some searching. This is my > first foray into working with embedded linux devices as well. I knew about the wiki, then again I believe someone else was asking about one earlier. I'm still wrapping my head around these make scripts to make sure nothing proprietary is hidden anywhere they don't theoretically need to be. Probably a good idea to use mainline libre-linux, but first want to make a diff file comparing their fork with libre to make sure their aren't any drivers which are libre that we might need (or any bug-fixes). Unfortunately their aren't any overtly libre forks of u-boot, however I don't know that their are necessarily any blobs in mainline u-boot or ntc's fork. I looked into libreboot and their support of arm is hazzy at best (one chromebook that it looks like two people ported it over to completely on their own). Best bet is to use libre-linux mainline and besides that just attempt to deblob ntc's components by hand, which shouldn't be a problem long term cause it doesn't look like they maintain any of this stuff at all anyway and it's very likely the only blobs are in the kernel anyway however not a sure one. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 13 17:11:47 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 17:11:47 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Ismo Väänänen wrote: > Hello, > > The recent talk about de-blobbing R8 and thus also GR8 inspired me to do a > quick write up on how I see a Next Thing Co. GR8 System-In-Package chip > being used in an EOMA68 compatible card. > The latest version of the write up can be found here: > https://sites.google.com/site/oh2ftg/eoma68/eoma68-gr8 yay fantastic! > I named the project "EOMA68-GR8" because why not. > > Like Vincent I'm doing this on the side and also with Altium. yeah i started with the same CAD designs but when i looked a couple of weeks ago there simply wasn't the actual GR8 module itself released. have they added it since? ah ha! yes they have, yay! https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP_Pro-Hardware/ also, i reached out to them via their website to ask for samples but have not received a response - that was over a month ago. did you have any luck? > I haven't done anything this complex in Altium before it's likely going to > be an interesting challenge. well the nice thing about the GR8 is that the major complexity - DDR3 RAM interfacing - is completely gone. the rest of the design, by comparison, should be absolutely trivial > GR8 has TTL/RGB LCD interface, USB2.0, I2C, SPI(SDMMC) and so on. > All the interfaces to make a compute card compatible with EOMA68 are there. > Except if I want the card to have "front facing" USB I'll need to include > some USB HUB chip like TI TUSB2046, which conveniently has no firmware being > a state machine. yyyyehhh... actuallyyyyy... the board is going to be so damn empty you should easily be able to get away with that. now, here's the really *really* important things that you need to know: * PCB height will need to be 1.2mm. do NOT use 1.6 (too high) or 0.8 (too costly) * components on TOP have to be an ABSOLUTE maximum of 1.9mm * components on BOTTOM have to be an ABSOLUTE maximum of 1.6mm. do NOT exceed those height clearances otherwise you simply won't be able to get the damn case on! typical problems with suppliers are to give you diodes that are 2.5mm high and 4.7uH inductors that are well over 3mm. > I'll have to look at how the interrupts go, at AXP209 PMIC and it's routing. don't touch it. at all. don't alter *anything* to do with the PMIC: you really don't need to. the CHIP-Pro's PCB size is so tiny it will literally sit surrounded in an EOMA68 form-factor with a good 15mm clearance all the way round. that is *more* than enough space to add the components you want, *without* making *any* modifications whatsoever to the majority of the CHIP-Pro's layout. that way, you have absolutely no "need" to "look" at how the interrupts go: you can just use the standard kernels that they're using, compiled as-is. likewise i do not recommend that you modify the SD card "detect" lines, or any GPIO lines for specific functions that you're keeping between the two designs. if they use a particular pair of lines for UART, use exactly those same lines. minimise the amount of effort on the hardware and it will minimise the amount of software porting you need, ok? also by minimising the amount of modifications made you increase the chances of having a 100% working board on the very first go. it's going to cost you about $USD 1500 for QTY 10 samples anyway, so the less changes you do the less money you risk chucking down the drain, ok? > And decide on if I'll layout the NAND as the talk about blobs being required > for NAND support sounds worrying. please get this straight: there *are* no blobs required for NAND support, ok? *full* GPL-compliant source *has* been available for the A13 for a number of years now. it's just that everyone lost interest in it because allwinner stopped selling the A13. however what you should consider is: that those TSSOP-48 "legacy" NAND ICs are such a pain in the ass that you should consider replacing it with an eMMC, anyway. look up all the suppliers of TSSOP-48 NAND: you will find they all say "not recommended for new designs", with the exception of the very low capacity ones from e.g. Micron, because they're used a lot in low-cost wireless routers. > That and seeing in general if even a half > reasonable layout is possible on 4-layer FR4 to get cheaper rates on the > pcb's. honestly it's so simple you'll have no problems whatsoever. really. you should see some of the boards with 4x DDR3x16 i had to do, *those* are hair-raising to fit into the available space. no, you should be able to actually just take the CHIP-Pro, not make *ANY* modifications WHATSOEVER, drop the outline of the EOMA68 board around it and then "connect the dots", literally. which you should give serious consideration to doing it that way. ah. i just looked at their PCB stack: it's 6 layer. i do NOT recommend that you change that. > At least there's no DDR RAM to route, exactly. that makes it dead-easy. > but the TTL/RGB fanout and > length matching is gona be chore. actually it's not a problem at all. the maximum speed is around the 100mhz mark, which at the speed of light is what... 3 metres to get out-of-sync? it's not like USB2 or anything, where you should be doing like below 1mil difference on the tracks (and even then USB is highly tolerant of discrepancies). one thing you do want to do though is to rotate the GR8 so that everything comes out cleanly from the RGB/TTL side. looking at the datasheet they're all PD2-PD27 which is the top left corner, so if you position the GR8 so that those all come out close to the EOMA68 connector you'll do fine. > One more good reason to learn how the automated length matching in Altium > works. honestly don't worry about it. just keep them generally together, and if you do have to swap the order (cross them) then use one layer to do a right-angle "jump" then come back to the same layer... it's real simple and can be done by hand. it's only 25 or so wires, it really really won't take you long. what i tend to do is start at one end from the CPU then stop half way, then go to the connector and route those roughly to the same location, keep them grouped neatly together, then do the "middle layer" routing to join them up. > Sourcing connectors and housings in small quantities. All that fun stuff. i can put you in touch with mike at the factory, he can sort all that out for you. i recommend you use his factory for prototyping and production, just so it's less hassle ok? but please when i introduce you to him, bear in mind that he's not a PCB design expert, he runs a busy factory. you say "hello i need QTY 10 of part XYZ here is the datasheet, can you help" or "hello i need QTY 10 of these PCBs made and PCBA (assembly) done, FR4, 6-layer, 1.2mm stack, here's the BOM and gerbers, please send me a quote, thank you very much". keep it *real* short, in other words. > If anything I have missed comes to mind please mention it, I'd rather hear > it now then when I have prototype pcb's at hand or layout nearly done. :) free advice: for f***'s sake take that f*****g proprietary WIFI module off the f*****g board. you don't need it, it will stop you getting RYF Certification, you'll need to seek FCC Certification at a much higher cost because of R.F. concerns, and, and, and. so, everything on page 6 of the CHIP_Pro Schematic: gone. yay. what else.... ok, the VREFTTL is basically the 3.3v power coming out from the AXP209 (ok not the AXP209, i checked the schematic, page 4, it's actually U3).. don't try to do on-card level-shifting, for goodness sake. the whole point of the VREFTTL concept is to avoid doing that. so you mentioned something about "i haven't decided whether to do 3.3v or 5v", you do 5V power in, and the 3.3v which is going to VCC-IO (D6, H5, M4) on the GR8 (page 19 of the datasheet, page 3 of the schematic), that's what you *also* route to VREFTTL, ok? looking at the schematic for v1_0 that's generated by U3, page 4, VCC-3V3. simple. drop all the audio codec stuff but don't drop the AVCC or AGND. keep those and keep HPVCC. it's something to do with stabilising the analog parts of the SoC so they don't affect operation of the digital parts. route the AXP209's "power / reset" line through to EOMA68_RESET. so POWER-ON (connected to AXP209 PWRON - keep R15 the 1k resistor ok>). make sure you keep a couple of test-pads on the PCB, one for UBOOT (K3) and one for GND, then put "UBOOT" on the silkscreen next to it. they call it FEL, and they already have TP0 for this purpose, so keep that. lose SW2 though. ugh the CHIP_Pro v1_0 schematic is for a battery-driven arrangement. uggh. *sigh* ok you'll need to change that: take a look at the cubieboard schematics, A10-cubieboard-2012-08-08 will do. basically: * CUT BAT1 * CUT BAT2 * CUT BATSENSE * CUT CHSENSE * CUT LX1 * REMOVE L1, R7, C4, C6, C7, C27 and ESD1. there's something else you need to do... i'm making that cubieboard schematic and also DS113-V2.7-2017-02-17.pdf available here: http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma ah yes: i remember - you need to merge ACIN1, ACIN2 and VBUS. that's to do with EOMA68 being actually an "OTG-like" power provision. on DS113-V2.7-2017-02-17.pdf i know it's called ACIN-5V, it's not, it's actually DCIN-5V, but ignore that: note then on page 11 ACIN-5V is *DIRECTLY* connected to the OTG connector's VBUS (J11). this is IMPORTANT if you want to do an OTG connector ok? consider if you want to do that, yes it has advantages, such as being able to independently power (and use) the Card from an OTG-Host cable... but there's no HDMI output so unlike the EOMA68-A20 you lose the real main advantage of having the OTG power! no video output, so errr... :) you would therefore be a *lot* better off just forgetting about the USB-OTG connector, forgetting about the TI USB Hub, and just connecting USB-OTG to EOMA68 USB port 1 and the 2nd USB port to EOMA68 USB port 2. if you do that you will still need to wire ACIN1, ACIN2 and VBUS all to the same net: this *is* actually explained in the AXP209 datasheet, surprisingly. continuing a review of the CHIP_Pro schematic... what the f*** is U6?? a QFN20 NANC IC? google searches on digikey, mouser and so on so *no* such thing. scary. cut it!! waaark... :) the toshiba 1GB NAND... https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/toshiba-semiconductor-and-storage/TC58NVG2S0HTA00/TC58NVG2S0HTA00-ND/5226324 yyyeah, ok: that's a 4Gbit (512Mbyte) NAND IC... small enough and cheap enough to be used in low-cost designs such as routers, so is still being manufactured: i'm not seeing a "not recommended for new designs" notice on digikey... but YOWSER $3!!! that's frickin ridiculous! a 4GBYTE eMMC is $5 on digikey! no, i would strongly suggest you either just cut NAND / eMMC entirely, then, like i've just done on the EOMA68-A20 Card, route SDC2 (PC6-PC11) through to a MicroSD Card slot on the front, and put SDC0 through to EOMA68. what that will give you is "default" booting off of the Card's MicroSD slot which can be over-ridden if people want to by putting in an OS boot card into the EOMA68 Housing SD card slot (if it's actually available). also it'll be about $3 to $4 cheaper on the BOM, which is quite significant, and the whole "NAND" issue just... goes away. but it's up to you. quite a lot to think about! but actually it's really quite straightforward. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 13 17:14:45 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 17:14:45 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 4:32 PM, Ismo Väänänen wrote: >>Wouldn't the PCMCIA card thickness be an issue when using a CPU module? > > According to the mechanical drawing on page 32 of the v1.0 GR8 datasheet the > SoM is at maximum 1.12mm thick. This should fit nicely inside even the 3.5mm > typeI EOMA68 case. > https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP_Pro-Hardware/blob/master/Datasheets/GR8_Datasheet_v1.0.pdf that's the SoC itself. the "mechanical drawing" for the CHIP_PRO v1.0 module states that it's a total of 5.2mm in height. TOP component clearance is 1.4mm, there's an OTG connector on it which will be... 2.5mm or so... no idea. actual dimensions are 45 x 30mm so yes _easily_ fits length-height-wise into the 78.1 x 43.something size of an EOMA68 PCB. l. > -Ismo > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 13 17:17:09 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 17:17:09 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: <69478D38-34F9-488E-8EB4-ED69B75B4B67@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 6:49 AM, Louis Pearson wrote: > I had this same idea just today, though I doubt I would have gotten > even this far. Go for it! > > I believe I originally brought it up, in the context of an EOMA50 card, > but an EOMA68 card would probably be more immediately useful. i'd really *really* like to see the GR8 done as an EOMA50 module then with a separate EOMA50-to-EOMA68 adapter, but researching the CompactFlash Card components (which would need to be mid-mount for the idea to work) would be a pain, particularly now that CF really isn't that common any more. we're extremely lucky that Runde in Shenzhen has customers in Korea who still buy Amphenol PCMCIA connectors and sockets! l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 13 17:30:47 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 17:30:47 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 4:34 PM, Andreas Grapentin wrote: >> any takers please put alias down here so i get a quick idea of numbers >> http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/ " hi, sorry andreas, my mailer decided to move all arm-netbooks messages to a folder without my consent after i changed the name of the list a couple of days ago. bit of an "aiyaaa" moment, so thank you to everyone who's been carrying on the conversation! > This looks very promising. I need to ask a couple more questions: > sure > Could parabola as a whole go into that list, with a to-be-determined > number of cards, or would we need to name the individual hackers? at some point i'll need an address and tel no and name for a courier, the name on the page is just to get an idea of numbers and also preferably put how you can be contacted (email address) if it's not obvious > We have at least three people working on the arm port, maybe more. Would > asking for ~5 cards still be in the right ballpark? eek! that's quite a lot, but with something like... i forget exactly how many but i believe it's like... 200 or so parabola cards, it's probably a good idea. > Would the prototypes be lent to us? donated? sold? bear in mind that the prototypes are like of the order of $USD *200 to 250 each*, and also that courier costs as well as the prototype production costs eat into the budget which is already getting tight, the less amount of money that comes out of that budget the more is available to help the project succeed. so i leave it up to you to decide. one thing: whatever happens, please do *not* just let the Cards sit on shelves once you are done with them. if you're not going to use them, *please find a home for them* and ask people to respect the same thing. the idea is that these Cards have an ongoing recycled lifespan until they literally fall apart, as they're part of an "Eco-Conscious" angle of Computing Appliance Reuse. > Is there an ETA? couple weeks for the 2.7.4 revisions, that'll be QTY 10 which i'll test out. ETAs during pre-production testing phases... you just *cannot* give *any* guarantees whatsoever. if this was the "production" phase then it would be a totally different matter: there would be a set schedule (because the factory has to slot everything in). l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 13 17:32:35 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 17:32:35 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Changed list-id In-Reply-To: <20170510105933.6aopwpp6reqgluyw@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> References: <20170510105933.6aopwpp6reqgluyw@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 11:59 AM, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote: > Hello > > I've just noticed that the list-id for this list has been changed: would > it be possible to announce it in advance so that people have time to > update their filters? i didn't realise it would have any effect! and i've only just seen your message because filters caught *me* out as well! duhh... :) > BTW, I think that the current list-id also has a typo, so am I correct > in thinking that it will probably change again in the future? updated just now, yes. sorry all! l. From andreas at grapentin.org Sat May 13 21:00:58 2017 From: andreas at grapentin.org (Andreas Grapentin) Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 22:00:58 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> Hi Luke, On Sat, May 13, 2017 at 05:30:47PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > at some point i'll need an address and tel no and name for a courier, > the name on the page is just to get an idea of numbers and also > preferably put how you can be contacted (email address) if it's not > obvious understood. I'll produce a list of hackers and contact info. > eek! that's quite a lot, but with something like... i forget exactly > how many but i believe it's like... 200 or so parabola cards, it's > probably a good idea. also understood. I will make sure that we only request the cards we actually need. I will talk to the maintainers and make sure they are all in the loop. I am confident we can get this number down a bit. > bear in mind that the prototypes are like of the order of $USD *200 > to 250 each*, and also that courier costs as well as the prototype > production costs eat into the budget which is already getting tight, > the less amount of money that comes out of that budget the more is > available to help the project succeed. so i leave it up to you to > decide. also understood. I will try and source some budget so that parabole does not produce any unnecessary costs. > one thing: whatever happens, please do *not* just let the Cards sit > on shelves once you are done with them. if you're not going to use > them, *please find a home for them* and ask people to respect the same > thing. the idea is that these Cards have an ongoing recycled lifespan > until they literally fall apart, as they're part of an "Eco-Conscious" > angle of Computing Appliance Reuse. don't worry, I have literally dozens of projects in mind with those cards ;) > couple weeks for the 2.7.4 revisions, that'll be QTY 10 which i'll > test out. ETAs during pre-production testing phases... you just > *cannot* give *any* guarantees whatsoever. allright, thanks for the info Luke, I will talk to our arm team again, make sure that everyone understands the things you told me, and then get back to you with a number, and then we will wait patiently for the cards to hit :) thank you all for the awesome work you are doing! Best, -Andreas -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ my GPG Public Key: https://files.grapentin.org/.gpg/public.key ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 14 00:37:57 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 00:37:57 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> Message-ID: On Sat, May 13, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Andreas Grapentin wrote: > don't worry, I have literally dozens of projects in mind with those cards ;) awesome, look forward to hearing about it l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 15 01:53:15 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 01:53:15 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ismo you say the following in the document: "Without a front panel USB-OTG port the compute module cannot be powered as-is and thus is not EOMA68 compatible." that's a misunderstanding. there is absolutely nothing in the standard which states "There Must Be A USB-OTG Port On The Front Panel". there *is* however a section which states that the power must be *OTG-LIKE*. in other words if you *HAVE* an OTG port you *MAY* wire that *DIRECTLY* to the EOMA68 5V pins, as-is. i.e. OTG VBUS *IS* EOMA68 5V DC. thus, if power is provided into the OTG port it can also go directly out to the Housing. exactly what happens after that is not your problem (for example: in the case of the libre 15.6in laptop it happens to be possible to charge the battery from it, but not enough to actually run the laptop itself. but, to reiterate: that is *not* your concern as a Card designer). if on the other hand you do *NOT* have an OTG port, then, obviously, the EOMA68 5V power is just a plain 5V DC input. given that there's only 2 USB ports on the GR8, dropping an OTG port and a USB hub is what i'd recommend. the only reason i put an OTG port on the EOMA68-A20 is because the A20 actually has 3 USB ports (2 USB2, one OTG). l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 15 01:56:22 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 01:56:22 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 4:32 PM, Ismo Väänänen wrote: >>Wouldn't the PCMCIA card thickness be an issue when using a CPU module? > > According to the mechanical drawing on page 32 of the v1.0 GR8 datasheet the > SoM is at maximum 1.12mm thick. This should fit nicely inside even the 3.5mm > typeI EOMA68 case. 3.3mm not 3.5mm. you'd almost certainly need a 0.8mm PCB (costly), bear in mind that you can't put that flat onto the bottom of the case, and so you'd have to source ultra-low-height power inductors (most likely ferrite beads). l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Mon May 15 10:02:18 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 11:02:18 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] What's your EOMA card doing Message-ID: Let's have a "What's your EOMA card doing" site so the world can see where and how long cards are alive and what use they have. Perhaps have each card have a, printed, unique number. So it's journey can be followed. This obviously has security and privacy issues attached so it would need a lot of thinking through. What does everyone else thinks of this? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Mon May 15 10:24:50 2017 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 23:24:50 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] What's your EOMA card doing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <962afd87-6919-2e32-dec7-0f2412252fb0@FineArtMarquetry.com> On 14/05/17 23:02, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > Let's have a "What's your EOMA card doing" site so the world can see > where and how long cards are alive and what use they have. That sounds like an interesting thing to follow. Whether I'd do so with mine remains to be seen. > > Perhaps have each card have a, printed, unique number. So it's journey > can be followed. > > This obviously has security and privacy issues attached so it would need > a lot of thinking through. Some kind of serial number is pretty typical on something like this card to begin with, just to keep track of when it was made, and be able in the event of early failures to figure out which batch of components was faulty. Using this serial number may not be a good idea for various reasons. It would add slightly to manufacturing costs (not ideal), but I could see a separate unique identifier printed on a semi-removable label attached to the card for use on such a site. Just adding a die cut split to the serial number label would probably be about right. IME, those labels typically last the lifetime of the product, but on the material it would be adhered to, with a little effort they can be cleanly removed. If actual registration of the card to be publicly tracked must be manually done by the user, I see no systemic privacy issues to worry about at the site maintainer/manufacturer(Luke) level. People who are comfortable with the world knowing and proud to display it will register, while others won't. Tor -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ 808-828-1107 GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 181 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 15 21:43:28 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 21:43:28 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hiya ismo, ok so i've been in touch with nexthing.co on your behalf and they've told me that it's a flat $6 for a GR8+AXP209 up to 10k volumes. it's also FOB HK (as in, you have to pay import and shipping from Hong Kong). so i realise this is a while down the line, but let me know when you're ready and need samples and i can put you in touch ok? l. From ml.eoma68 at eml.cc Mon May 15 23:27:47 2017 From: ml.eoma68 at eml.cc (Vincent) Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 00:27:47 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Sourcing PCMCIA type 2 and type 3 cases Message-ID: Hi everyone, I just did a little digging to find suitable sources for these cases. Since working on the i.MX7-based card, I would really like to tinker with the cases, too. Two samples of each type would be nice. Any idea where to get them? Unfortunately, I could not find a good source. Thanks, Vincent From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 15 23:33:23 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 23:33:23 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Sourcing PCMCIA type 2 and type 3 cases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 11:27 PM, Vincent wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I just did a little digging to find suitable sources for these cases. > Since working on the i.MX7-based card, I would really like to tinker > with the cases, too. > > Two samples of each type would be nice. Any idea where to get them? > Unfortunately, I could not find a good source. yep. you won't. there's only two that i know, and they're the exact same part. i was waiting to hear back from you in order to introduce you to mike (the factory that has the parts), and also waiting to hear back from you so i can send you the files i've been working on. did you see the message on this list which was in response to your introduction about the iMX7 card? i changed the name of the list so it may have affected any filters that you might have. l. From dhaeffner at gmail.com Tue May 16 13:47:07 2017 From: dhaeffner at gmail.com (Dave Haeffner) Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 08:47:07 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] IRC chat channel for EOMA68 Message-ID: Hey all, I saw mention of an IRC chat channel on the EOMA68 Crowd Supply site, but no specifics about it. Is it on freenode or somewhere else? What's the chat room name? Cheers, Dave H -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From silverskullpsu at gmail.com Tue May 16 14:09:18 2017 From: silverskullpsu at gmail.com (Jonathan Frederickson) Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 09:09:18 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] IRC chat channel for EOMA68 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's #arm-netbook on Freenode. On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 8:47 AM, Dave Haeffner wrote: > Hey all, > > I saw mention of an IRC chat channel on the EOMA68 Crowd Supply site, but no > specifics about it. Is it on freenode or somewhere else? What's the chat > room name? > > > Cheers, > Dave H > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From ml.eoma68 at eml.cc Tue May 16 20:28:42 2017 From: ml.eoma68 at eml.cc (Vincent) Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 21:28:42 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 card based on NXP i.MX7 (work in progress) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001236e0-8451-c08e-ea08-bde02a2f5ab9@eml.cc> Hi Luke, Okay, it is good to see you on the same page when it comes to KiCad vs. Altium. Also, I wanted to give the community the chance to respond to this prior to making any design. I highly appreciate your effort in creating the template version of the i.MX7 design. I hope I can carry it on in your best interest without touching anything of the critical stuff. Do you by accident know how critical the layer stack-up is in terms of material selection, e.g., in terms of using FR4 and having controlled impedances by the manufacturer? For testing purposes etc., it would certainly be much easier to use a manufacturer that happens to be nearby. Also, I wanted to point out that the i.MX7 security manual is only available under an NDA (one needs to sign up and request the file download). I'm actually wondering why this is the case because the stuff in there is not that special after all. Thanks for summarizing all the other aspects (power profile, etc.). Best regards, Vincent On 05/10/2017 09:25 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:53 PM, Vincent wrote: >> Hi everybody, >> >> Since this is my first post on this list, please allow me to get off my >> chest a few things: >> >> - huge thanks to Luke for getting this project started >> - me = funding a PFY laptop, eagerly awaiting for it to arrive ;-) >> - me = working at a research institute, focused on hardware security > > hi vincent, nice to see you here on the list. > >> What would be of interest to me is the following: >> - How well the idea of having an i.MX7 card is received > > i like it - the more the merrier, especially if there are others making them. > >> - How important the use of an open source CAD program is. > > debatable. if they were up to scratch it would be more important. > they're not up to scratch... so... *sigh*. > >> I have access >> to Altium and have used it beforehand. However, KiCad has made >> significant progress since CERN is involved. Using KiCad would make it >> easier for the community to modify the board but since soldering these >> components by hand is impossible anyway, would there be any benefit in >> having freely accessible design files? > > you pretty much summed it up. do the best you can. gerbers, export > the PCB so it *can* be imported into libre design software (i believe > someone has actually written a plugin for kicad so it can import > altium in some way), and so on. > > but honestly, KiCAD simply is not up to the task. you *will* end up > in a world of pain. firstly: you should not be considering > re-laying-out the DDR3 tracks (unless absolutely necessary... and - > see later - it's not necessary). secondly, if there's a pre-existing > Reference Board you should be using it and adapting your working > strategy to that. > > basically it's all about making the absolute minimum number of > changes. this is *not* software. each "test" you do costs $1700 to > $2000 and takes around 2-4 weeks to make then another 2-4 weeks to > debug. > > >> - General interest in a tamper-resistant enclosure >> >> To make the development easier, it would be nice if Luke could provide >> us (the community) with: >> - proper drawings for the outline of his PCB >> - PCMCIA connector type/enclosure and height requirements of PCB >> - mechanical verification package (as order option on crowdsupply) to >> provide a "getting-you-started" package for EOMA68 card developers; >> possibly including: PCMCIA receptable, connector, enclosure, etc. > > as you're the first let's do this in an informal way that's > convenient for me to do. i've had a go at converting the sabre iMX7 > Reference Design over to EOMA68, and what i'll do is email you that > once i've put all the (latest versions of) components into it. > > then, if you use mike's factory, he has all the parts, and is set up > to ship internationally. > >> Please let me know what you think. Also, please keep in mind that this >> is a kind of fun project for me at work and therefore the time I can >> spend on this is limited. Progress will be slow but I will be sending >> updates to the mailing list. > > cool - understood. > > well, i'll try to make it easy for you by cleaning up the converted > Reference Design. > > this is awesome! :) > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From ml.eoma68 at eml.cc Tue May 16 20:35:41 2017 From: ml.eoma68 at eml.cc (Vincent) Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 21:35:41 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Sourcing PCMCIA type 2 and type 3 cases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67b1f46f-9824-193d-dca3-50c7f2c1a91e@eml.cc> Hi Luke, Hm, that is sad. I somewhat fear that these cases are being phased out and soon will no longer be available :-/ Does he have both type 2 and type 3 cases? I saw some type 3 cases with screws and everything which lead me to the conclusion that it could actually be possible to open/close them and insert/remove the PCB that is inside? For type 2, this appears not to be possible? If it is about receiving data, I can basically set up pretty much everything, e.g.: receive via email, dedicated GIT, anonymous file drop off, etc. ;-) Cheers, Vincent On 05/16/2017 12:33 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 11:27 PM, Vincent wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> >> I just did a little digging to find suitable sources for these cases. >> Since working on the i.MX7-based card, I would really like to tinker >> with the cases, too. >> >> Two samples of each type would be nice. Any idea where to get them? >> Unfortunately, I could not find a good source. > > yep. you won't. there's only two that i know, and they're the exact > same part. i was waiting to hear back from you in order to introduce > you to mike (the factory that has the parts), and also waiting to hear > back from you so i can send you the files i've been working on. did > you see the message on this list which was in response to your > introduction about the iMX7 card? i changed the name of the list so it > may have affected any filters that you might have. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 16 20:50:34 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 20:50:34 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 card based on NXP i.MX7 (work in progress) In-Reply-To: <001236e0-8451-c08e-ea08-bde02a2f5ab9@eml.cc> References: <001236e0-8451-c08e-ea08-bde02a2f5ab9@eml.cc> Message-ID: On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 8:28 PM, Vincent wrote: > Hi Luke, > > Okay, it is good to see you on the same page when it comes to KiCad vs. > Altium. yeah... ismo too. he tried it... basically anyone who's ever used a professional CAD package will scream in horror and try to dig out their own eyes rather than use it :) > Also, I wanted to give the community the chance to respond to > this prior to making any design. awesome. > I highly appreciate your effort in creating the template version of the > i.MX7 design. I hope I can carry it on in your best interest without > touching anything of the critical stuff. great. i'll send it your way. it should be pretty obvious what's needed. i *think* you might, unfortunately, need to rotate the eMMC chip by 45 degrees (one way or the other) so as to make room for the PMICs (without needing to do too much to the actual PMIC layout... which i *don't* recommend altering if you can possibly help it). but to do _that_ you might also need to move one (or both) of the XTALs. the "safest" one to move is the 32khz one - maybe replace that with an MC149 footprint one (i think that's what it is: take a look at the EOMA68-A20 board layout). maybe MC-146? anyway doesn't matter. one thing that will need sorting: the 5V DC input. i haven't completely finished that, i have however removed "battery" and other stuff from the Reference Design, we'll need to go over that and make sure it's clean/clear. > Do you by accident know how critical the layer stack-up is in terms of > material selection, e.g., in terms of using FR4 and having controlled > impedances by the manufacturer? ok to give you some idea: DDR3 tracks which @ 3.2mil are nominally 100 ohms on a 6-layer stack on FR4 @ 1.6mm will drop to **HALF** that amount if you convert to an 8 layer stack @ 1.2mm. *luckily* this is something that has been catered for in the actual DDR3 standard, so you can have 40 ohm, 60 ohm, ... all the way up to 120 ohm impedance, and the DDR3 termination at *both* the PHY *and the actual DDR3 ICs* can be changed in software. for the USB2 tracks, honestly they are so short that i wouldn't worry about it. just get them out on as few layers as you can with as little modifications as you can, leave them @ 3.5 mil with spacing around... 7 mil and be done with it. just make sure that you set up equally-spaced vias all the way. general rule is: the more "artistic" (i.e. the more "beautiful") the design, the greater the chances are that it will work. yes, really! symmetry and beauty bizarrely have a better chance of success than any amount of "engineering rules"! also *do not* put tracks close to high-speed signals, not even on another layer. if you absolutely absolutely have to put signals (any signals) on neighbouring layers, make damn sure that they "cross" - don't for goodness sake make them go "parallel". > For testing purposes etc., it would > certainly be much easier to use a manufacturer that happens to be nearby. ... yyyeah... except i can guarantee they'll be charging you around $2k to $4k for QTY 10 PCBs instead of only $USD 600 to 800, and god knows what western PCBA (pcb assembly) rates are. don't be surprised if they quote you north of $USD 10,000. given that it's going to take at least 3-4 weeks for the PCBs and assembly to be done _anyway_, what's adding the cost of a DHL courier going to be? $70 plus import duties? is it *really* that important to do "testing" that you don't want to save a whopping $8k difference in the cost?? > Also, I wanted to point out that the i.MX7 security manual is only > available under an NDA (one needs to sign up and request the file > download). I'm actually wondering why this is the case because the stuff > in there is not that special after all. bizarre! well, one thing you might want to investigate: does that NDA conflict with releasing source code or not? > Thanks for summarizing all the other aspects (power profile, etc.). no problem vincent. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 16 20:55:43 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 20:55:43 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Sourcing PCMCIA type 2 and type 3 cases In-Reply-To: <67b1f46f-9824-193d-dca3-50c7f2c1a91e@eml.cc> References: <67b1f46f-9824-193d-dca3-50c7f2c1a91e@eml.cc> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 8:35 PM, Vincent wrote: > Hi Luke, > > Hm, that is sad. I somewhat fear that these cases are being phased out > and soon will no longer be available :-/ no - there are at least two big customers still ordering these specific parts. one is in korea, the other is the french "Conditional Access Module" industry. also i've ordered 2,000 of each (case and connector) so should have plenty. > Does he have both type 2 and type 3 cases? no. type II only. > I saw some type 3 cases with > screws and everything which lead me to the conclusion that it could > actually be possible to open/close them and insert/remove the PCB that > is inside? For type 2, this appears not to be possible? the litkconn P/N 68F casework basically is a "total disassmbly" job. it's a pain in the ass and takes several minutes. > If it is about receiving data, I can basically set up pretty much > everything, e.g.: receive via email, dedicated GIT, anonymous file drop > off, etc. ;-) yay, great. From fuumind at openmailbox.org Wed May 17 11:14:50 2017 From: fuumind at openmailbox.org (fuumind) Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 12:14:50 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170511095704.61b99bf07c1ec783f7bd9c64@openmailbox.org> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> <20170511095704.61b99bf07c1ec783f7bd9c64@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: <20170517121450.d7a3f07cd15a0c66600ce527@openmailbox.org> On Thu, 11 May 2017 09:57:04 +0200 fuumind wrote: > On Wed, 10 May 2017 17:46:23 +0100 > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > > now that i think about it, i believe i heard of something about 20 > > years ago called the humanist society (or something like that). > > apparently they live their lives according to a really quite [humane] > > ... [humane] ... > > Another wordplay Luke? I can see two levels of p(h)un. :) > > > wonderful "code"... just without the bits about "god" attached. > > > > so i'd say definitively yes, you can... it's just that you'd have to > > choose to do so, and that can be really tough, to research, assess and > > then make the decision to adhere to a particular code. it means > > making changes in your life which might cost you friends, your job > > (because the company asks you to do something that is against your > > newly-chosen "code")... > > > > now, what wasn't clear in your question was whether you were asking > > about the *internal dialogue* that one might have with oneself to > > replicate the same *effects* as "belief in code" or whether you could > > have meant specifically the *external appearance* i.e. the > > improvements in *other people's* lives that your new [atheist but > > humane] "code" has. > > For me as a christian the very essence of my faith is my relationship with God. It's like having a parent that you'd trust with your life and a friend that you hang out with all the time and share *everything* with and so much more I can't describe. Trying to replace that with a sense of moral obligation towards your fellow human beings (which in itself is a good thing) is, well, futile. That's the way I see it. It seems I came on too strong when I wrote this. I do apologize! /fuumind > > > > > very cool question, hendrik. > > > > l. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > /fuumind > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 17 12:23:23 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 12:23:23 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170517121450.d7a3f07cd15a0c66600ce527@openmailbox.org> References: <20170507162550.7877aca7@ulgy_thing> <59dd7d5f-190b-3c30-0eef-7452bcfc1d5c@lyberta.net> <2d0ca684-1c8e-2edb-94a2-d283282eabde@lyberta.net> <20170510153300.GA27417@topoi.pooq.com> <20170511095704.61b99bf07c1ec783f7bd9c64@openmailbox.org> <20170517121450.d7a3f07cd15a0c66600ce527@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 11:14 AM, fuumind wrote: > It seems I came on too strong when I wrote this. I do apologize! that's ok. these discussions had taken up quite a lot of time, so although it was fascinating to delve into i decided not to encourage the (long) side-track by participating. l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Wed May 17 21:30:06 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 16:30:06 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Sourcing PCMCIA type 2 and type 3 cases Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Sourcing PCMCIA type 2 and type 3 cases Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 20:55:43 +0100 > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 8:35 PM, Vincent wrote: > > Hi Luke, > > > > Hm, that is sad. I somewhat fear that these cases are being phased out > > and soon will no longer be available :-/ > > no - there are at least two big customers still ordering these > specific parts. one is in korea, the other is the french "Conditional > Access Module" industry. Is the pc card's casing this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional-access_module > > also i've ordered 2,000 of each (case and connector) so should have plenty. > > > Does he have both type 2 and type 3 cases? > > no. type II only. > > > I saw some type 3 cases with > > screws and everything which lead me to the conclusion that it could > > actually be possible to open/close them and insert/remove the PCB that > > is inside? For type 2, this appears not to be possible? > > the litkconn P/N 68F casework basically is a "total disassmbly" job. > it's a pain in the ass and takes several minutes. > > > If it is about receiving data, I can basically set up pretty much > > everything, e.g.: receive via email, dedicated GIT, anonymous file drop > > off, etc. ;-) > > yay, great. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 17 21:38:26 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 21:38:26 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Sourcing PCMCIA type 2 and type 3 cases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 9:30 PM, wrote: > Is the pc card's casing this one > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional-access_module yyep, that's the one! it's actually PCMCIA - CAM cards are pin-compatible and electronically compatible with PCMCIA then they do this weird flip-over thing... i think. in case you're not aware of it, PCMCIA is actually... get this... it's the old IBM AT/XT bus!! isn't that hilarious? CompactFlash is just an 8-bit version of the same thing, and *both* are *directly* pin-compatible with IDE drives! which is why you can get a CF-to-2.5in IDE adapter from e.g. hwtools.net. or, i did 10 years ago, anyway. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Wed May 17 22:01:50 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 17:01:50 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Sourcing PCMCIA type 2 and type 3 cases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ...to add my voice, as a retrocomputing enthusiast, because of that and because I dang well can :P PCMCIA (which is 16-bit) is adapted from ISA. CardBus (which is 32-bit) is adapted from 32-bit PCI. (Yes, Virginia, there *is* 64-bit PCI... it's called PCI Extended aka PCI-X, and is *not* the same as PCI Express aka PCI-E.) CompactFlash is adapted from IDE. I've never heard of any PCMCIA<->CompactFlash interoperability that didn't need a translator ("bridge") chip in between. "PC Card" refers to *both* PCMCIA and CardBus at once, because people these days are brought up too badly to remember a five-letter freakin' acronym, and all three names (and both standards) were from the same committee/commission/group, which was *also* named PCMCIA. Past tense here, because in 2009 it became part of USB just to confuse everyone even more. CompactFlash, on the other hand, is SanDisk's baby. Also, PCMCIA is not interoperable with CardBus, electrically and (due to the connector notching, which is upside-down from one to the other) physically. If you don't see the little gold stripe near the connector, you have either a 16-bit PCMCIA card or a *really* early (or equally cheap!) 32-bit CardBus card. Chances are pretty high that it's the former and not the latter. The XT Bus is 8 bits only, and is *very slightly* different from 8-bit ISA (please don't ask, I don't remember the specifics offhand). I would *assume*, although I don't actually know, that the AT Bus and ISA-16 are similarly slightly different. Oh, yeah... if you just say "ISA", you're probably thinking of ISA-16, which was rather a bit more popular. There is 8-bit-only ISA, just ask half the slots in my old 386 ;) Before anyone strikes up an argument, I *do* have a PC-XT clone in addition to the previously-mentioned 386 (which was my first computer, three rebuilds ago), so I'm in a position to know about buses... I need to burn a BIOS chip for it because known-good floppy drives don't work in it right now... haven't gotten around to that yet, though, mostly because UV erasers for EPROMs are relatively expensive at my income bracket. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njansen1 at gmail.com Thu May 18 17:12:06 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 12:12:06 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I'm reaching out to Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton. I recently read your latest update post on the Crowd Supply campaign for the EOMA68, titled: "Existential 3D Printing Moments". You mentioned that you needed help and/or advice on 3d printing for manufacturing. I have a lot of very specific experience here. I ran an open source project that required us to set up a 3D printer farm for manufacturing our first run of machines. I've lived in China while trying to get our project ready for mass manufacture. I have some advice for you, if you're willing to listen. I'd prefer to chat via video or audio, as there's so much to cover, I'd get carpal tunnel typing it all out. I'd be OK with summarizing the meeting minutes here afterwards, as to not exclude anyone else. I can meet pretty much any time regardless of time zone. Let me know either way. I've been following this project for quite a while (since the Slashdot AMA years ago), and I really want you guys to succeed. I missed the crowd funding round, but would still buy a few after they're fulfilled. Send me a direct email if you're interested in chatting. njansen1 at gmail dot com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 18 17:31:13 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 17:31:13 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Neil Jansen wrote: > Hi, I'm reaching out to Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton. I recently read your > latest update post on the Crowd Supply campaign for the EOMA68, titled: > "Existential 3D Printing Moments". awesome, i'll email you privately. letting people know what's happening is an important part of this project so a summary afterwards would be great. i know the RSI thing well... l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Thu May 18 20:51:08 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 15:51:08 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? Message-ID: lkcl says, he cannot make use of the rk3399 cpu because he does not have the full schematics. What are these schematics? Can you tell in advance what schematics are required? Can you name them? Or do you require all of the full schematics? You do not know what schematics you require until you have read the full schematics? From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 18 23:35:37 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 23:35:37 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 8:51 PM, wrote: > lkcl says, he cannot make use of the rk3399 cpu no, i did not say that. i specifically said that it would be a total waste of my time to *CONSIDER* using the rk3399 until *full reference design CAD source files are available* > because he does not have the full schematics. no, i said full reference design PCB and schematic *CAD* files: that's completely different, as full schematics are usually provided in "PDF" format which are completely f*****g useless as you have to re-enter absolutely everything into the CAD design system and it takes weeks if not months... *and then you have to do the PCB as well*. > What are these schematics? you mean full reference design PCB and schematic CAD files. examples include: * http://beagleboard.org/hardware/design search that page for the words "allegro" and "orcad" * https://www.kosagi.com/w/index.php?title=Novena_PVT_Design_Source search that page for "altium source" * https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-Hardware and again look for the ".DSN" (orcad) and ".brd" (allegro) files * https://github.com/radxa/oshw/tree/master/rock_pro likewise and many, many more. Jetson TK1, Sabre Lite, Sabre iMX7 - there are absolutely loads of examples. > Can you tell in advance what schematics are required? you mean full reference design PCB and schematic CAD files. yes you can tell: the best ones contain both an example PMIC layout as well as the DDR RAM layout. the *absolute* best ones are a fully-working board (typically named EVB - evaluation board) but a "beaglebone" or somesuch will do just as well. a full reference design basically allows a transformation into a fully working Card to take place in as little as three weeks. the ones that are a pain are the ones that *only* contain an example DDR RAM layout to the processor. but this alone saves LITERALLY months of effort. > Can you name them? name them... sort-of. words to use when doing google searches include "BSP" or "EVB" but if that doesn't work try "{processor name} space {PCB CAD Design Package name}" > Or do you require all of the full schematics? the more that is available the less time and money is wasted. > You do not know what schematics you require until you have read the full schematics? if you just want to READ the schematics you can do that with the auto-generated (read-only) PDF that is otherwise f******g useless for doing actual modifications because it's a read-only output from the CAD package. obviously this will however allow you to assess whether the SOURCE of the CAD files will be any good, such that you can decide whether you're wasting your time or not. for example, it's no good if you have a tiny board and the PDF shows that the design has (and requires) 8 DDR RAM ICs. or, if it uses LPDDR RAM or uses POP (package-on-packagee) RAM, you need to make a decision about that (see the neo900 nightmare they just had because they picked a POP RAM) but once you have reviewed the *READ-ONLY* PDF, even if you obtain the schematic SOURCE file, you STILL cannot make a final decision because you NEED TO SEE THE PCB CAD LAYOUT FILE AS WELL. the PCB CAD file contains the footprints of the ICs, it contains tracks laid out, ground planes all done and completed, and a huge range of engineering expertise including R.F. and E.M. expertise of the person who did the layout, all done, all of which you DO NOT HAVE TO DUPLICATE. but sometimes the distance between the SoC and the RAM ICs will be too great: in a small PCB the ICs would not fit, so you would need to consider *modifying* one of the most difficult and challenging areas to get right (the DDR layout). that's just nuts: you'd be wasting your time, so it would be better to find a completely new layout that someone else has already done. sometimes the PMIC (power management ICs) are in the wrong place for the target PCB size you want, so you have to work out how to move (or re-lay-out) those, or replace them entirely. that is a whole can of worms on its own, so again it would be better to see if you can find a new layout that's been tested and known to work. basically it's a hell of a lot of work even to *evaluate* a Reference Design. l. From njansen1 at gmail.com Fri May 19 00:35:53 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 19:35:53 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote: > > awesome, i'll email you privately. letting people know what's > happening is an important part of this project so a summary afterwards > would be great. i know the RSI thing well... Notes / minutes from today's voice call are below. lkcl recently had concerns on the CrowdSupply campaign update page, on how to effectively scale up manufacturing a large amount of parts using a small farm of 3D printers. His concerns were over which type of 3D printer to use, whether to "redesign" a printer vs. just buying them. Which types of filament to trust vs what can't be trusted. Also over where the Western-based 3D printing open source ecosystem is and where it's heading compared to the Asian companies that have popped up. I've ran a 3D printer farm and printed over 100kg of filament for weeks and weeks on end, while trying to fulfill our orders. Our project was a 3D printable SMT pick and place machine that was completely open source. After that I went to China to try and get it designed for manufacturing, so this is an area that I've got some experience in. I'm not really trying to step on any toes, this is all FYI, hopefully it's useful to you. * I recommended the Lulzbot Taz as a great example of a modern open source hardware company that makes an excellent product that is up to the job of manufacturing at the scale that your require. Aleph Objects literally does this, a significant chunk of their machines are 3D printed on their own machines. That, IMO, is what makes them perfect for this. They're not making a crappy machine and selling it. They're eating their own dogfood, and they're fixing their mistakes. They've been doing that now for YEARS. So it's a very refined design, and there's a reason that they're the so popular. They have auto bed levelling, automated nozzle cleaning, an all metal hotend, geared extruder, heated bed, the list goes on .. it's production ready. The main problem here is their retail cost. But they're open source, and can be built from scratch, they even provide the BOM. * lkcl mentioned that he's actually been in touch with Aleph Objects who have offered to let him use their bot farm ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_jUObUGLTA) to manufacture the parts. * I mentioned that he should take them up on the offer immediately. Deals like that don't just fall into your lap that often (if ever). That's fantastic to even get offered a deal like that. * lkcl says they run 0.5mm nozzles and he needs machines with 0.4mm nozzles, because that's how he designed the parts. I counter that he should just have them print a full set of laptop production parts to see what works and what doesn't. The risk is low to try, and very likely, a bunch of parts will print just fine. Even if a few don't print well, those can be done on a separate machine and at least the bulk of it got done on the Taz farm. * I mention that 0.5mm is better anyway for production. The rule is to print with as large as a nozzle as you can get away with .. no exceptions. Every part should be optimized for this, from design onward. He mentioned that his design took quite a while to do, but I would say that you've learned an important lesson by this. Don't spend so much time designing before you figure out how to produce it. For reasons like this. I speak from experience here. It's costly to make this mistake. * Assuming the printed Aleph Objects parts don't come back OK due to nozzle size issues, I would recommend asking Aleph Objects very nicely if they could put 0.4mm nozzles on their machines (if not for free, then what would it take them money-wise to swap the nozzles out for a short period?) Being that their printer farm is sectioned into old machines and new machines, they're very likely running their daily stuff on the new machines, and they've got some older slightly-more-finicky machines sitting in the corner that would still print very accurately, that they're probably not using. It would be cheaper to pay them to change the nozzles out than it would be for you to eat the NRE of making new machines (not to mention your lost time to design and manufacture them). This is the smart choice. * lkcl commented that the Taz design "wasn't rigid enough", to which I called bullshit. It's actually extremely rigid, I've used it, I have experience with it directly, and I've seen what kind of prints it makes. It makes fantastic prints, and it shouldn't be discounted just because it doesn't look like a MendelMax. I urge you to back up your assumption with actual data before making accusations or assumptions. Actual data, in this case, is seeing how well those parts print on these machines. That's the litmus test. * I pleaded with him to not "redesign" yet another 3D printer as was proposed in the update post. That's a waste of time, because that's literally saying that there is not a single usable design out of THOUSANDS of pre-existing 3D reprap designs out there. Use something that already exists, that's the best business decision and it's what's best for your customers. Wanting to re-engineer something because it's not perfect is a classic sign of engineer-brain, which gets the best of us. I get the urge from time to time, but it is rarely the correct decision in times like these. * On the subjects of hotends, I recommended to stick to the tried and true, I've had great experience with the Lulzbot v2 hexagon hotend, and the J-Head. I've had horrible experience with the Makerbot hotends (old and new), and have had mediocre experience with the E3D -- it's finicky. * On the subject of heated beds, I've had the most luck with Aquanet hair spray on glass, heated to ~60-70C. It allows me to swap the glass plates out and minimize the time spent between runs. This pays off in a production scenario. I had several dozen glass plates cut by a local glass company, for under $4.00 USD each. I used regular old glass, no borosilicate or anything. Never had a problem, not a single one broke. We'd take them out and throw the whole thing in the freezer if we were in a hurry, they literally fall off the glass with no warping or anything. Heated beds are a must for production. Although there are different styles / techniques for bed adhesion, I say go for what you've used, what works. Hair spray works for me, others do other stuff .. to each their own. * On the subject of bowden vs non bowden setups. I find that the speed is limited by the extruder and hotend's ability to deliver melted plastic, to the point where reducing the mass on the head doesn't matter that much. Bowden setups in my experience complicate matters, and even when retract settings have been tweaked, it's still hit or miss. lkcl mentioned that he recommended some sort of worm drive extruder that had a remote mounted stepper or something like that. As long as the extruder gear is mounted near the hotend, that's all that I think really matters. That's what prints the best. * On the subject of controllers (not mentioned on the call), the cheap Arduino 2560's and RAMPS 1.4 with Marlin are just fine for production use. Really, any controller is fine as long as it's a Cartesian machine. The new ones with ARM Cortex and fancy drivers are nice, but not required. I did it without the fancy stuff just fine. * On the subject of designs / frames, building from scratch isn't that difficult, this is the option that I took with our 3D printer farm. I recommended to take a puddle jumper flight to Shenzhen, go to the markets, buy extrusion, screws by the bag, all that, and use Taobao for what's not at the market. It can be done, and literally everything on the BOM can be delivered to your door in less than a few days, tops. That's one thing Asia's great for. Cheap, fast, and good enough when it comes to RepRaps. Our 3d printer farm costed less than $200 USD per machine, built from scratch. They worked admirably. * On the subject of Chinese clone 3d printers. The Monoprice machine is a rebranded WanHao Duplicator i3. Wanhao is a huge company in China, they're making a TON of these things, mainly intended for the Chinese and Asian markets. Companies like Monoprice and others are approaching them to setup distribution in Western countries. They're actually not that bad! I'm not sure that they could be used for production, but they're better than you'd give them credit for, and they're cheap. Very cheap. Not as good as a Lulzbut Taz or an Ultimaker by any means. But good enough that I'd buy one just to have around. * On the subject of whether or not Western 3D printer OSS companies are dying or not. The ones that are innovating are doing just fine. Others, like RepRapPro, are dying because they're not innovating. Adrian Bowyer, the founder of the RepRap project and was the owner / founder of RepRapPro, is really solely responsible for his company going out of business. While all of the innovation was happening in the RepRap scene, he sort of turned his nose at it and continued to sell machines with outdated technology. His extruders were crap compared to what's been developed by E3D, Brian Reifsnyder, Aleph Objects, and others. For a guy that literally coined the idea of evolution and self replication of machines, it's odd that he wouldn't be more perceptive to integrating other's ideas into his products. He only has himself to blame. Other companies like Prusa Research, Aleph Objects, and SeeMeCNC are doing just fine, business is booming. While the Chinese machines are selling, there's still a lot of activity and innovation happening right here where it all started. The Chinese aren't really seen as 'trusted' in the Western markets ... What's crazy is, the most trusted brand in 3d printing right now isn't Makerbot or some other closed source company. It's an open source Libre company. That's insane but true. * On the subject of filaments. lkcl's quote on the update post was: "And no, using a network-3D-printing house is not okay, because the quality of the PLA from such places simply cannot be trusted. It’s Faberdashery’s PLA or nothing. I’ve shared some of the nightmare horror stories of low-quality PLA with people on the list already." So my experience is as follows. I literally ran 100+ kilograms of filament for our production orders. You're saying "Faberdashery or nothing", but I didn't use them and my prints were just fine. Faberdashery's filament are not magical. There's nothing that separates them from other filament manufacturers, other than their Pantone color accuracy. Other than that, it's pretty run-of-the-mill virgin PLA that's been run on a decent extrusion machine. The first step to good filament is to start with virgin PLA. Good PLA will come with a material safety data sheet and will come from known sources, and will be "virgin" aka not recycled / re-used. Other than that, it all boils down to which extrusion machine they're using, and how well they run it. Good extrusion machines will have several thickness sensors and will stop if anything bad happens. A well run setup will be able to do dozens or hundreds of KG's of plastic before those thickness sensors go off. A good modern roll won't have any weird thickness inconsistencies, if it's made on a good machine with a good operator. There are now companies in China making decent filament, although I can't name any names. I could look this info up but it may be a moot point depending on how the Aleph Objects collaboration works out. Anyway the point is that there are plenty of other companies besides Faberdashery that make great filament. And, I'd bet, ALL of them would be cheaper. HOWEVER, this is a MAJOR de-risking point for your whole operation. So use what's worked for you, if it's only a few thousand and that's the difference between your operation running smoothly, and grinding to a halt, then yea, use what you're comfortable with. I also expressed my interest in the EOMA68 standard and how it may fit in to several of my ongoing projects. Mainly an open source laptop with a mechanical keyboard and 20+ hour battery life, and a portable digital radio system intended mainly for amateur / ARRL type stuff, but could also be used by security researchers or anyone else wanting a powerful yet portable SDR. I'll hopefully be doing a more formal introduction on the mailing list soon, to keep the topics separate. That's about it. Thanks, Neil -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ml.eoma68 at eml.cc Fri May 19 00:42:34 2017 From: ml.eoma68 at eml.cc (Vincent) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 01:42:34 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] 3D printing requirements Message-ID: Hi Luke, I saw your recent update on crowdsupply. Could you please list the specific requirements you need for 3d printing? Otherwise it will be difficult to help you out. Ideally, you can provide us with the following data: - maximum print dimension in width X length (e.g., 200x200mm) - minimum wall thickness (e.g., 1mm) - smallest detail (e.g., 0.3mm) Also, having a single component of the casework as a sample print could be helpful (meaning: if this prints OK, we would expect that all the other components are of equal quality). I value your quality-first approach and do not want to settle for less. We have a couple of decent 3dprinting suppliers in Germany which I did use in the past (though, for tiny objects only). I could offer to get quotes from them and/or do some negotiating. Also, check their quality based on the sample component to print (which I could also send to you). Another approach could be to distribute the load: There are many hacker/maker spaces around the world. Many of them do have 3d printers and offer printing at much cheaper rates. I do have good friends at a maker space with an Ultimaker 2+ and most of the time the printer is idle. Since they are a registered voluntary association, they are always interested in receiving minor donations in return for services. I could ask them to print a couple of cases? Another idea: How about buying 10 Ultimaker+ and selling them via crowdsupply as part of the EOMA68 campaign (with a reasonable deduction, due to the reason being used)? You did address PLA a couple of times. How about the resin option? Any specifics? How many people ordered it? Cheers, Vincent From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 19 01:42:52 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 01:42:52 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 12:35 AM, Neil Jansen wrote: > Notes / minutes from today's voice call are below. neil, really really appreciated here, this is amazingly comprehensive, how the heck did you remember all that we said? :) btw apologise i should have said, the conversation with aleph objects was private and not to be announced, they haven't given permission to do that, as they are *considering* and we are *assessing* - privately - the feasibility. a couple of things i forgot to mention, one is to emphasise the "bang-per-buck" part. i did this kind of thing back in... 2003 i believe it was, where i was designing an ultra-grade encryption symmetric key algorithm. key sizes of 16384 bits, block sizes of 32768. i used csrc.nist.gov's STS (statistical test suite) to assess it, but it was *literally* taking days to run tests of 1000 groups of 100,000 bits so i decided to buy some computers plural. now, i set myself a budget of GBP 1,000 and started looking at what i could get. i found a motherboard for GBP 11, a processor for 25 that was a 1ghz Athlon, 256mb RAM for 25 or something, case for GBP 15, no hard drive, PXE-boot them all, bottom line it all came to GBP 125, so i could buy 8 of them. now, when i talked to a supplier he said, "um, why such slow machines?? why don't you get these 2ghz Athons" and i asked "ok, how much are they?" and he said "200 GBP each processor and you have to have a GBP 75 motherboard" so i said, "ok so i'd only be able to get 3 of those, which gives me a total of 6000 Mhz processing speed. i can make that *8000* Mhz by using the 1ghz processor, for the same money. and that's when the lightbulb went on in the supplier's head. this kind of design assessment trick i've only ever heard being used by people who make beowulf clusters, the word "cluster" being the key word. unfortunately, most 3d printers are simply not designed in the west around "clustering". they just aren't designed *and marketed* as "maximising the print output for the money". in china that's probably a totally different matter, so i'll look up the wanhao duplicator later (lead appreciated, neil). the numbers i did *after* i wrote the update, so haven't published them. here's some of them i worked out, based on a budget of say $USD 2500. * mendel90 - i've had mine running at 200mm/sec (yes, really, 200mm/sec *print* speed and a 250mm/sec travel speed). cost is around $500 so 2500 / 500 = 5. 5 x 200mm/sec = 1000 mm/sec * lulzbot taz 6 - we'll find out the quality on this soon enough but let's assume they run them at 50mm/sec cost, if sourcing parts instead of buying retail (which is $1250) might be as low as $700, so 2500 / 700 = 3.5 call it 3. 3 x 50 = 150mm/sec. even if you pushed it to 200mm/sec it's still only 3 x 200 - 600 mm/sec * cheap and cheerful taobao-sourced china clone. would not wish to run it faster than 40-50mm/sec. cost, maybe $200. 2500 / 200 = 12. 12 x 50 = still only 600 mm / sec! so there's this strange trade-off between going too cheap so that the print quality is adversely affected by the low quality of the components, and going so expensive that you simply can't multiply them up for the budget. what i am looking at therefore is parts which will get me sustainable speeds that the MendelFlex can reach, but without the pricetag of an Ultimaker-2, MendelFlex or Lulzbot Taz 6. here's a video of mutley3d running a MendelFlex at 350mm/s printing and 400mm/s travel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO4qp_m5Y-E the sound is frickin hilarious :) now, neil, this is the kind of speed at which an arduino 2560 *cannot cope*, and, also, where the design flaws inherent in RAMPS - using prototyping Evaluation Boards (polulu-style drivers) - start to show up. david crocket (dc42) has specifically designed the duet series so that you can consider exceeding PWM rates of 150 khz, which is what you need if you want to sustain 500mm/sec for example (and do not want problems to occur at speeds well below that). also i forgot to mention that i've been using the E3Dv6 "volcano" which, when you use a 0.5 to 0.8mm nozzle can easily do flow rates of something mad like.... 200c^3/min - particularly when combined with the huge 40:1 gearing of the flex3drive which can *accurately* deliver the kinds of torque needed. the volcano basically turns the heat chamber round, so that the heat area is 20mm long instead of the usual 10mm. none of this stuff i knew about, the 18 months before i began designing the laptop's parts. oh well. > settings have been tweaked, it's still hit or miss. lkcl mentioned that he > recommended some sort of worm drive extruder that had a remote mounted > stepper or something like that. As long as the extruder gear is mounted > near the hotend, it is. the automotive-grade flexible driveshaft is 750mm long and would snap (or twist) if used "direct-drive" style. hence the reason for the 40:1 wormdgear. the end result: WAY better than the COMBINED best characteristics of *both* bowden *and* direct-drive extruding. > * On the subject of controllers (not mentioned on the call), the cheap > Arduino 2560's and RAMPS 1.4 with Marlin are just fine for production use. > Really, any controller is fine as long as it's a Cartesian machine. The new > ones with ARM Cortex and fancy drivers are nice, but not required. I did it > without the fancy stuff just fine. ... but not at 200 to 350mm/sec print speeds :) > * On the subject of designs / frames, building from scratch isn't that > difficult, this is the option that I took with our 3D printer farm. I > recommended to take a puddle jumper flight to Shenzhen, go to the markets, > buy extrusion, screws by the bag, all that, and use Taobao for what's not at > the market. It can be done, and literally everything on the BOM can be > delivered to your door in less than a few days, tops. That's one thing > Asia's great for. Cheap, fast, and good enough when it comes to RepRaps. > Our 3d printer farm costed less than $200 USD per machine, built from > scratch. They worked admirably. that's one of the reasons i'm here. to be able to get parts quickly, without tariffs, and at lower cost. > * On the subject of Chinese clone 3d printers. The Monoprice machine is a > rebranded WanHao Duplicator i3. Wanhao is a huge company in China, they're > making a TON of these things, mainly intended for the Chinese and Asian > markets. Companies like Monoprice and others are approaching them to setup > distribution in Western countries. They're actually not that bad! I'm not > sure that they could be used for production, but they're better than you'd > give them credit for, and they're cheap. Very cheap. Not as good as a > Lulzbut Taz or an Ultimaker by any means. But good enough that I'd buy one > just to have around. i took a quick look: the vertical x-rod arrangement is one i know can cause "head bounce" during higher-speed operation, and any "play" in the bearings are amplified.... i explain it here: http://reprap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Rigidity#Vertical_vs_Horizontal_Carriage_Mounting > * On the subject of whether or not Western 3D printer OSS companies are > dying or not. The ones that are innovating are doing just fine. Others, > like RepRapPro, are dying because they're not innovating. Adrian Bowyer, > the founder of the RepRap project and was the owner / founder of RepRapPro, > is really solely responsible for his company going out of business. While > all of the innovation was happening in the RepRap scene, he sort of turned > his nose at it and continued to sell machines with outdated technology. .... oooops.... i knew i could feel that something wasn't quite right on the reprap forum, i just didn't know exactly what. appreciate the heads-up very much. > as 'trusted' in the Western markets ... What's crazy is, the most trusted > brand in 3d printing right now isn't Makerbot or some other closed source > company. It's an open source Libre company. That's insane but true. it's no surprise. makerbot was secretly patenting public domain discussions from forums and pissed *everybody* off. the engineers know it, and it's not that uncommon for employees to subconsciously "self-sabotage". but also this stuff is *really hard*. working in isolation just doesn't cut it, and that's why libre collaboration is pissing all over proprietary companies. > just fine. Faberdashery's filament are not magical. There's nothing that > separates them from other filament manufacturers, other than their Pantone > color accuracy. i loove their colours :) > Other than that, it's pretty run-of-the-mill virgin PLA > that's been run on a decent extrusion machine. The first step to good > filament is to start with virgin PLA. i'm really really happy to hear of (and then test) known filaments that are of the same quality... particularly if they have the same kinds of eye-popping colours. > I also expressed my interest in the EOMA68 standard and how it may fit in to > several of my ongoing projects. Mainly an open source laptop with a > mechanical keyboard and 20+ hour battery life, and a portable digital radio > system intended mainly for amateur / ARRL type stuff, but could also be used > by security researchers or anyone else wanting a powerful yet portable SDR. love it. well let's get you on the list for a pre-production prototype ok? welcome to the list neil. really good talking with you. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 19 01:52:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 01:52:07 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] 3D printing requirements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 12:42 AM, Vincent wrote: > Hi Luke, > > I saw your recent update on crowdsupply. Could you please list the > specific requirements you need for 3d printing? Otherwise it will be > difficult to help you out. > > Ideally, you can provide us with the following data: > - maximum print dimension in width X length (e.g., 200x200mm) 200x200 is enough to print the 260mm-long edge parts *across the diagonal*. you get about a 4mm gap all the way round so it *really does* need a printer that is *genuinely* 200x200. > - minimum wall thickness (e.g., 1mm) yeah it's about 1mm, maybe 1.2mm. a couple of places are 0.7mm which cura 15.04 _will_ still do... but only with a 0.4mm nozzle. a 0.5 will be "optimised out". > - smallest detail (e.g., 0.3mm) 0.3mm sounds about right > Also, having a single component of the casework as a sample print could > be helpful (meaning: if this prints OK, we would expect that all the > other components are of equal quality). http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/kde_tablet/3dcase/ then go to the stl directory. i recoomend trying base_back.stl, base_end.stl and back_base_hinge.stl with orientation *AS-IS*. do NOT alter their orientation. then try fitting all 3 together. do NOT add "internal support" to any except back_base_hinge.stl. raft is not necessary. brim *might* be necessary (try it). > I value your quality-first approach and do not want to settle for less. :) > We have a couple of decent 3dprinting suppliers in Germany which I did > use in the past (though, for tiny objects only). I could offer to get > quotes from them and/or do some negotiating. Also, check their quality > based on the sample component to print (which I could also send to you). appreciated > Another approach could be to distribute the load: There are many > hacker/maker spaces around the world. Many of them do have 3d printers > and offer printing at much cheaper rates. I do have good friends at a > maker space with an Ultimaker 2+ and most of the time the printer is > idle. Since they are a registered voluntary association, they are always > interested in receiving minor donations in return for services. > > I could ask them to print a couple of cases? see what they say. > Another idea: > How about buying 10 Ultimaker+ and selling them via crowdsupply as part > of the EOMA68 campaign (with a reasonable deduction, due to the reason > being used)? yeahhhh that's $USD 12,000 just on 3D printers. and on 3D printers that can only do around 150mm/sec. see message to neil: we really do need to be smarter about the selection criteria. particularly given that the budget's not going to be enough. i also have to get smart about this, hence why i'm looking to do a second campaign, and this time increase the prices (and volumes) so as to bring in more cash in order to complete all the pledges, *but* make designs that use the same PCBs *as the first campaign*, thus reducing overall the manufacturing cost for *both* campaigns. > You did address PLA a couple of times. How about the resin option? Any > specifics? How many people ordered it? not many. i honestly haven't investigated resin fully, yet. i do know it'll come out great, but it's lower on the priority list. l. From njansen1 at gmail.com Fri May 19 03:02:03 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 22:02:03 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 8:42 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > btw apologise i should have said, the conversation with aleph objects > was private and not to be announced, they haven't given permission to > do that, as they are *considering* and we are *assessing* - privately > - the feasibility. My apologies, the phone was breaking up a bit during the first bit of all that. Feel free to delete my reply or any others that reference it. This is a pretty low-key mailing list so either way I don't think much will come of it. Mostly a miscommunication on my part, for which I apologize. > a couple of things i forgot to mention, one is to emphasise the > "bang-per-buck" part. [...] > this kind of design assessment trick i've only ever heard being used > by people who make beowulf clusters, the word "cluster" being the key > word. Those are fun problems to solve. You're right that there are a lot of variables, and many different approaches. And if you've got a few important criteria like cost or time, it's easy enough to weed out the bad ones. Speaking of Beowulf clusters .. Not to go too far off topic, but has anyone given any thought to a Beowulf cluster of EOMA68's? I only ask because if Intel and AMD are including so much proprietary crap between you and the processor, it's only a matter of time before other alternatives become important. The way I see it, the current Allwinner based EOMA68's are great for doing what a tablet or netbook can do, but it's not going to replace my workstation with 16GB of RAM (which I run out of probably weekly before needing to restart, but that's another story .. Windows and Chrome, I have no one to blame but myself there). Anyway, assuming that the Linux kernel could scale to maybe 8-16 of these little cores, and being that they're all upgradeable, it actually seems like it could become a neat alternative for workstation usage. I don't even see where cost would be that prohibitive, as workstations actually get pretty expensive often surpassing $1000 USD. Are there any hard realities that would prevent the EOMA68 from working in this fashion? Any bandwidth issues or technical limitations? > unfortunately, most 3d printers are simply not designed in the west > around "clustering". they just aren't designed *and marketed* as > "maximising the print output for the money". They're designed and marketed to be a semi-hackable appliance that sits on the corner of your bench or in an office environment. They're certainly not intended to be clustered. Funny story though, our open source SMT pick and place was intended to do 3D printing, and we were intending for them to be clustered. Too complicated for our small team, but we were laying the ground work down regardless. Our team was so small that we had to throw out 3D printing altogether and concentrate on the minimum viable product, which was SMT pick and place, solder paste dispense, and reflow. Even that kicked our ass. Our mentors wanted us to put a conveyor belt on it but we just couldn't do it in the time allotted. Robotics is hard with a small team, regardless of how small or simple the machine is. > in china that's probably > a totally different matter, so i'll look up the wanhao duplicator > later (lead appreciated, neil). They run printer farms of Wanhao Duplicators in China, I've seen them. How do they do it? Labor is cheap. Machines are cheap. They make it work. I think that's all I need to say :) > * mendel90 - i've had mine running at 200mm/sec (yes, really, > 200mm/sec *print* speed and a 250mm/sec travel speed). I should have covered print speed in my last email. You would be surprised at how slowly we printed during our production run. We ran them real nice and slow, less than 100 mm/sec. Going back to bang-for-buck, this was how we approached the problem. Lots of slow-ish machines, rather than a few very expensive fast machines. It worked out for us. Here are a few pics of our farm in the early stages. Don't laugh; they worked well. I'll see if I can dig up some more pictures later. * http://i.imgur.com/56F2nYP.png * http://i.imgur.com/8cXbl72.png > cost is around $500 so 2500 / 500 = 5. 5 x 200mm/sec = 1000 mm/sec By that logic, our machines were comparable to that. Slower, cheaper, but the math works out. And if I built them today (and in China/Taiwan), they'd be cheaper and I could probably eek some more out of them. Getting bigger beds on them isn't impossible either .. we had an identical one at our makerspace but with a 200mm x 400mm bed with longer rods. Basically a double-MK2B bed. > what i am looking at therefore is parts which will get me sustainable > speeds that the MendelFlex can reach, but without the pricetag of an > Ultimaker-2, MendelFlex or Lulzbot Taz 6. I still propose that you could do cheaper / slower machines and still hit your speed requirement overall. But if I go along with your thinking, why can't you just build a bunch of MendelMax / MendelFlex / whatever-you-call-them over there in Asia? 20mm x 20mm Extrusion like that is RIDICULOUSLY cheap. If you DIY over there period, you'll hopefully find that the extrusion and hardware will be pleasantly cheap. > now, neil, this is the kind of speed at which an arduino 2560 *cannot > cope*, and, also, where the design flaws inherent in RAMPS - using > prototyping Evaluation Boards (polulu-style drivers) - start to show > up. Yea but Arduino 2560's and RAMPS boards are MUCH cheaper than anything with an ARM Cortex. That was kinda what I was getting at. There's a brick wall that you hit when you want to go that fast. You'll need a better motion control system, more rigidity, better everything really. All of that adds up, especially when you're building so many of them. What's great about the RAMPS boards, the Arduino clones, and all that, is that they're incredibly cheap. You could probably buy a dozen for the price of a single "bleeding edge" type ARM Cortex motion controller. What I'm arguing is that you shouldn't discount slow if it's cheap. You'll have less jams, less filament issues in general, because you're not pushing the hotend and extruder as hard. If something breaks, well shit, replace it and don't sweat it. As a car analogy, think of a Formula 1 car running in a Le Mans type race. It would probably do OK for the first few laps, but the risk of it breaking down over 24 hours is much higher. Slow and steady and reliable wins here. Le Mans cars aren't pushed into the red like an F1 car is. They're cheaper too. A team can race a fleet of Le Mans cars for the price of F1 cars. If one makes to the end, they still win. If that one F1 car breaks down or crashes, they win nothing. Not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea hopefully. > it's no surprise. makerbot was secretly patenting public domain > discussions from forums and pissed *everybody* off. the engineers > know it, and it's not that uncommon for employees to subconsciously > "self-sabotage". One of our mentors was an early Makerbot employee that left. Man, the stories from that place. I'm glad that it's going tits up. > i loove their colours :) Me too, however I do wish that they (or someone else) would make a decent Olive Drab Green. > i'm really really happy to hear of (and then test) known filaments > that are of the same quality... particularly if they have the same > kinds of eye-popping colours. Our production runs used PushPlastic exclusively: https://www.pushplastic.com/ USA made, virgin plastic, constant thickness filament, yada yada .. They've got more experience than most and they're finally getting decent non-primary colors. Not faberdashery level or anything .. but enough to keep me happy. There are many others too. That was just who we happened to use (well, who I happen to use to this day). > welcome to the list neil. really good talking with you. Likewise. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 19 04:29:23 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 04:29:23 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 3:02 AM, Neil Jansen wrote: > On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 8:42 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > >> btw apologise i should have said, the conversation with aleph objects >> was private and not to be announced, they haven't given permission to >> do that, as they are *considering* and we are *assessing* - privately >> - the feasibility. > > My apologies, the phone was breaking up a bit during the first bit of all > that. Feel free to delete my reply or any others that reference it. This > is a pretty low-key mailing list so either way I don't think much will come > of it. Mostly a miscommunication on my part, for which I apologize. nono it was me, i just forgot to mention it. > >> a couple of things i forgot to mention, one is to emphasise the >> "bang-per-buck" part. [...] >> this kind of design assessment trick i've only ever heard being used >> by people who make beowulf clusters, the word "cluster" being the key >> word. > > Those are fun problems to solve. You're right that there are a lot of > variables, and many different approaches. And if you've got a few important > criteria like cost or time, it's easy enough to weed out the bad ones. yehyeh. > Speaking of Beowulf clusters .. Not to go too far off topic, but has anyone > given any thought to a Beowulf cluster of EOMA68's? lol yeeees :) > Are there any hard realities that would prevent the EOMA68 from working in > this fashion? Any bandwidth issues or technical limitations? size, power budget. in about 5-8 years it won't be an issue. EOMA200 is better suited to clustering. bigger PCB size and a much higher power budget. >> * mendel90 - i've had mine running at 200mm/sec (yes, really, >> 200mm/sec *print* speed and a 250mm/sec travel speed). > > I should have covered print speed in my last email. You would be surprised > at how slowly we printed during our production run. We ran them real nice > and slow, less than 100 mm/sec. Going back to bang-for-buck, this was how > we approached the problem. Lots of slow-ish machines, rather than a few > very expensive fast machines. It worked out for us. > > Here are a few pics of our farm in the early stages. Don't laugh; they > worked well. I'll see if I can dig up some more pictures later. > > * http://i.imgur.com/56F2nYP.png > * http://i.imgur.com/8cXbl72.png nice! hey that 2nd one looks pretty much the same as the anycubic i have here. >> cost is around $500 so 2500 / 500 = 5. 5 x 200mm/sec = 1000 mm/sec > > By that logic, our machines were comparable to that. Slower, cheaper, but > the math works out. yehyeh. if you have 1/2 the speed but 1/2 the cost.... it's the same end-result. >> what i am looking at therefore is parts which will get me sustainable >> speeds that the MendelFlex can reach, but without the pricetag of an >> Ultimaker-2, MendelFlex or Lulzbot Taz 6. > > I still propose that you could do cheaper / slower machines and still hit > your speed requirement overall. But if I go along with your thinking, why > can't you just build a bunch of MendelMax / MendelFlex / > whatever-you-call-them over there in Asia? that's what i'd like to consider. there are some specific areas where e.g. just an extra $5 on 24v electronics will allow you to then put an extra $5 onto 900steps/rev motors which then allows you to increase the speed by.... say... 20%, for a 2.5% increase in budget. and now you can use a 24v heater you can spend another extra $5 on an E3Dv6 volcano clone, now you can get *another* 20% increase in speed for only a 2.5% increase in budget. then you get a mutley3d flex3drive for $100 and because the hotend can now cope you can get a whopping *100%* increase in speed for a 50% increase in budget. this is the kind of logic that i will be applying. > 20mm x 20mm Extrusion like that > is RIDICULOUSLY cheap. If you DIY over there period, you'll hopefully find > that the extrusion and hardware will be pleasantly cheap. yehyeh. i was considering optimising the design for minimising extrusion, and rigidising the frame with panels (like the ultimaker), but if it's $1.50 for a 350mm length why bother with minimising extrusion, just get some strips of lexan 50mm wide and strap them in a cross across the diagonals. i've got a little video showing how effective that is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb-WjZY5qyI > >> now, neil, this is the kind of speed at which an arduino 2560 *cannot >> cope*, and, also, where the design flaws inherent in RAMPS - using >> prototyping Evaluation Boards (polulu-style drivers) - start to show >> up. > > Yea but Arduino 2560's and RAMPS boards are MUCH cheaper than anything with > an ARM Cortex. it may surprise you to know that i'm a big fan of the melzi 2.0.... except they're 1.3A driver ICs and that's not going to be enough. i'm already getting regular extruder-skipping on the anycubic, and that's even at 50mm/sec. i can't bring myself to use RAMPS. i just... can't. phil hands knows the story very well, he had one of the original sanguilinos (huxleys) just like you: the polulus are *prototyping* boards *specifically* described by the manufacturer as for *evaluation purposes only*. his printer used to stall out for a couple of seconds on one axis as the ICs overheated. he read the datasheet and found that there's a *ceramic insulator* on the *top* of the IC (meaning that a heatsink is pretty useless), and that the IC is designed for heat to be wicked away *through the PCB* via the exposed pad. and a frickin 18x18mm PCB just ain't gonna cut it. i just... i can't bring myself to spend backers' money on stuff that i know is crud, neil. sso i've been spending some time tracking down board designs and so on. Arduino Due: https://world.taobao.com/item/539393961702.htm RMB 75 so that's around $12. and TRAMS uses TMC2100s, where their Reference Design has full PCB and schematics available: if i'm doing 10+ i can just send that to mike and he can make them. TRAMS is *real* basic. 4 steppers, 2 beefy power MOSFETs (extruder, printbed), 2 smaller ones for fans. does it need ethernet? no... because you can get an ethernet "shield". does it need WIFI? no... because you can get a WIFI "shield". etc. etc. etc. etc. > That was kinda what I was getting at. There's a brick wall > that you hit when you want to go that fast. You'll need a better motion > control system, more rigidity, better everything really. ... yeh. i know. so that's why i wrote the mechanical rigidity page, so that i remind myself that i know what i'm doing, but also remember and record all of the things that i've seen on the reprap forum, all the tiny little bits of good advice, all documented here: http://reprap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Rigidity > All of that adds > up, especially when you're building so many of them. not necessarily (or, if it does it *has* to be assessed via the same logic above: what percentage speed improvement will be attained divided by what price increase. if number equals greater than e.g. 1.5 then go for it). i've specifically been thinking on and off for a *long* time about how to ensure - *at a low cost* - that a frame and the moving parts remain rigid, so that higher speeds don't shake things to bits. so far it's 2020 extrusion cube with lexan "X"s on three sides and the base, and open "picture frame" (ultimaker2 style) lexan borders. this makes the extrusion absolutely rock-solid. MGN9C rails so that the problems associated with rods go away. triple lead screws (i might consider quadruple) on the printbed, NO CANTILEVERING. i am still debating whether to duplicate the ultimaker-2's XY arrangement or whether to go with a quadruple-pulley variant of the 1990s rikidenki plotter. > What's great about the > RAMPS boards, the Arduino clones, and all that, is that they're incredibly > cheap. You could probably buy a dozen for the price of a single "bleeding > edge" type ARM Cortex motion controller. ... yeh which i wouldn't consider getting - not when the cost of e.g. duet WIFI is the same as an entire taobao cheap-and-cheerful 3D printer, much as i *really* love what dc42 is doing. so that's why i've tracked down TRAMS (which has 2A silent drivers and a single PCB) and a taobao due clone. i.e. *for the money* TRAMS plus a taobao-due-clone gives that "bang-per-buck increase" that a "bleeding edge" ARM Cortex board simply cannot give. yes i could get a duet WIFI with the 2.5A TMC2660 drivers... but they're *$200* and that extra 20% increase in current for a 150% increase in price over a TRAMS+taobao-due-clone simply cannot be justified. > What I'm arguing is that you > shouldn't discount slow if it's cheap. You'll have less jams, less filament > issues in general, because you're not pushing the hotend and extruder as > hard. If something breaks, well shit, replace it and don't sweat it. :) well, here's the thing: i actually quite like trying out things that other people aren't doing. but also taking calculated risks. > As a car analogy, think of a Formula 1 car running in a Le Mans type race. > It would probably do OK for the first few laps, but the risk of it breaking > down over 24 hours is much higher. Slow and steady and reliable wins here. > Le Mans cars aren't pushed into the red like an F1 car is. They're cheaper > too. A team can race a fleet of Le Mans cars for the price of F1 cars. If > one makes to the end, they still win. If that one F1 car breaks down or > crashes, they win nothing. Not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea > hopefully. yehyeh i do. the latest ford GT40 supercar uses a 6 cylinder mass-produced eco-boost engine. its increased fuel economy but also its reliability from huge amounts of testing meant that they pissed all over ferrari at le mans. > One of our mentors was an early Makerbot employee that left. Man, the > stories from that place. I'm glad that it's going tits up. i didn't know it was... but it doesn't surprise me. you isolate yourself from the innovation, it's gonna have consequences >> i loove their colours :) > > Me too, however I do wish that they (or someone else) would make a decent > Olive Drab Green. i was _so_ disappointed when they stopped the "village green" filament :) > >> i'm really really happy to hear of (and then test) known filaments >> that are of the same quality... particularly if they have the same >> kinds of eye-popping colours. > > Our production runs used PushPlastic exclusively: ahh that was the name i couldn't remember. thank you. that's one to evaluate, then. l. From njansen1 at gmail.com Fri May 19 05:08:00 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 00:08:00 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 11:29 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote: > size, power budget. in about 5-8 years it won't be an issue. > EOMA200 is better suited to clustering. bigger PCB size and a much > higher power budget. I'm not really concerned about size. What do you mean by power budget? What's to stop me or anyone else from buying, say, 8x EOMA68's and networking them? (gigabit or otherwise)? Assuming that a backplane is the only thing in the way, that could happen pretty easily. The only other thing missing at that point would be availability of the 1st gen cards, but that should get better in time, I'd think. Cost wise it's still less than an Intel NUC, if you're not counting the cost of the backplane. > and now you can use a 24v heater you can spend another extra $5 on an > E3Dv6 volcano clone, now you can get *another* 20% increase in speed > for only a 2.5% increase in budget. As you can see from the pics, we ran on the cheapest 12V power supplies that we could find. Before that I tested 24V, it wasn't worth the cost. Again, brickwall economics here. We went cheap. The 12V power supplies were purchased in bulk and were maybe $14 USD each? The 3D printed mounts and the little PCB's were practically free and it would turn the supply on and off between jobs whereas our 24V bricks were on all the time. The ONLY thing that we splurged on at the time was the E3D nozzles and that was more of a crapshoot. I would have done better to cheap out on those as well, I could have printed more reliably with the cheaper J-Heads. > yehyeh. i was considering optimising the design for minimising > extrusion, and rigidising the frame with panels (like the ultimaker), > but if it's $1.50 for a 350mm length why bother with minimising > extrusion, just get some strips of lexan 50mm wide and strap them in a > cross across the diagonals. i've got a little video showing how > effective that is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb-WjZY5qyI Don't bother minimizing extrusion if you do end up redesigning (gah!). It's cheap as dirt nowadays if you're buying the generic stuff. If you want rigid, well there you go. > it may surprise you to know that i'm a big fan of the melzi 2.0.... > except they're 1.3A driver ICs and that's not going to be enough. i'm > already getting regular extruder-skipping on the anycubic, and that's > even at 50mm/sec. I have a junk box full of Melzi's, they were horrible, but it was all manufacturing defects from a crappy Chinese company. The Chinese version took some artistic leeway that the original (British IIRC?) designer probably never intended. > i can't bring myself to use RAMPS. i just... can't. phil hands knows > the story very well, he had one of the original sanguilinos (huxleys) > just like you: the polulus are *prototyping* boards *specifically* > described by the manufacturer as for *evaluation purposes only*. his > printer used to stall out for a couple of seconds on one axis as the > ICs overheated. he read the datasheet and found that there's a > *ceramic insulator* on the *top* of the IC (meaning that a heatsink is > pretty useless), and that the IC is designed for heat to be wicked > away *through the PCB* via the exposed pad. and a frickin 18x18mm > PCB just ain't gonna cut it. I've used both as I've said. Mine never stalled out. I used cheap-as-dirt A4998's. Of course, I was running them < 100mm/sec and they were happy there. I'm sounding like a broken record again, lol. But, it was cheap but it worked extremely well. > i just... i can't bring myself to spend backers' money on stuff that > i know is crud, neil. You're starting to sound like a German engineer now :) They're not crud if you use them within the constraints that I outlined. No need to turn your nose at them. What I'm trying to get at is that you've got this huge point of diminishing returns, you can place yourself on either side of it. Your choice obviously. But don't act like it isn't viable, because I literally did it. > sso i've been spending some time tracking down board designs and so > on. Arduino Due: https://world.taobao.com/item/539393961702.htm RMB > 75 so that's around $12. Dang those Due's are getting cheaper, back in my day those were a pretty penny. > and TRAMS uses TMC2100s, where their Reference Design has full PCB > and schematics available: if i'm doing 10+ i can just send that to > mike and he can make them. TRAMS is *real* basic. 4 steppers, 2 > beefy power MOSFETs (extruder, printbed), 2 smaller ones for fans. <3 TMC2100's. Our PnP was going to use TMC2130's. Great German drivers. However #1 they're hard as shit to import into China, which sucked for us at the time. You can get damn near anything in China but this was one of those parts that just isn't really something that they use. It was, to this day, the only part that I could not find on Taobao. We may have smuggled our samples in from Hong Kong. #2 they're only really necessary if you want to squeeze performance out of your stepper motors. For our farm we never did that, we didn't need to. > MGN9C rails so that the problems associated with rods go away. > triple lead screws (i might consider quadruple) on the printbed, NO > CANTILEVERING. You're a madman. You sure like to over-engineer things, don't you? :) > well, here's the thing: i actually quite like trying out things that > other people aren't doing. but also taking calculated risks. Sounds like you've already got your mind made up. I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm just sharing my experience and what worked for me. Like many technical problems, it's all about the approach. There are as many different approaches as there are engineers and business men. You know what is ultimately best for your situation. If it were me in your shoes though .. well, I'd never put myself in that position again, haha. Nope, one and done, thank you very much. Any of my future products I make will be CNC machined, laser cut, or injection molded, and then outsourced. As long as it's a durable product, it's not really any worse than the energy expended to setup a printer farm. ...annd from your previous-previous email, I forgot to reply to this little bit: > love it. well let's get you on the list for a pre-production prototype ok? Yea, hook a brother up. The pre-production is the A20 or is it the older one? Are there any basic breakout boards or dev boards for it to plug into? If you need an address or anything like that just let me know. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 19 05:30:37 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 05:30:37 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] beowulf clustering EOMA68 Message-ID: On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 5:08 AM, Neil Jansen wrote: > On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 11:29 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > >> size, power budget. in about 5-8 years it won't be an issue. >> EOMA200 is better suited to clustering. bigger PCB size and a much >> higher power budget. > > I'm not really concerned about size. What do you mean by power budget? 5W per card in the current standard, with an "option" to increase that to 10W *if the housing supports it*. that means having sufficient thermal cooling/ > What's to stop me or anyone else from buying, say, 8x EOMA68's and > networking them? nothing. > (gigabit or otherwise)? no ethernet. USB3 *if the Card supports it*... which the A20 doesn't. > Assuming that a backplane is the > only thing in the way, that could happen pretty easily. The only other > thing missing at that point would be availability of the 1st gen cards, but > that should get better in time, I'd think. Cost wise it's still less than > an Intel NUC, if you're not counting the cost of the backplane. you can't get a 1000 pin 15W *processor* nor can you get 128-bit-wide DDR3 memory bus bandwidth into an EOMA68 case. ok the latter you might be able to do if you used 4x 32-bit-wide LPDDR3 RAM ICs but the entire 5W power budget would be blown on running the RAM even at only around 1066mhz. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 19 06:03:15 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 06:03:15 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 5:08 AM, Neil Jansen wrote: >> and now you can use a 24v heater you can spend another extra $5 on an >> E3Dv6 volcano clone, now you can get *another* 20% increase in speed >> for only a 2.5% increase in budget. > > As you can see from the pics, we ran on the cheapest 12V power supplies that > we could find. Before that I tested 24V, it wasn't worth the cost. Again, > brickwall economics here. We went cheap. The 12V power supplies were > purchased in bulk and were maybe $14 USD each? yeh meanwell's my favourite and there's no difference between 12 and 24v prices. > The 3D printed mounts and > the little PCB's were practically free and it would turn the supply on and > off between jobs whereas our 24V bricks were on all the time. The ONLY > thing that we splurged on at the time was the E3D nozzles and that was more > of a crapshoot. I would have done better to cheap out on those as well, I > could have printed more reliably with the cheaper J-Heads. i wonder what was going on as the only time i've had problems with an E3Dv6 is when the fan on the heatsink wasn't running. that was bad. heat travelled up the tube and melted the filament *above* the hotend entry point. all bets were off at that point. > Don't bother minimizing extrusion if you do end up redesigning (gah!). It's > cheap as dirt nowadays if you're buying the generic stuff. If you want > rigid, well there you go. i do - and i know how it's achieved. i've had an excellent 3D visual manipulation ability for like... 35 years. > I have a junk box full of Melzi's, they were horrible, but it was all > manufacturing defects from a crappy Chinese company. The Chinese version > took some artistic leeway that the original (British IIRC?) designer > probably never intended. aiyaaa... > I've used both as I've said. Mine never stalled out. I used cheap-as-dirt > A4998's. Of course, I was running them < 100mm/sec and they were happy > there. yehyeh. >> i just... i can't bring myself to spend backers' money on stuff that >> i know is crud, neil. > > You're starting to sound like a German engineer now :) They're not crud if > you use them within the constraints that I outlined. No need to turn your > nose at them. What I'm trying to get at is that you've got this huge point > of diminishing returns, you can place yourself on either side of it. i will stop when the speed/$ improvement is parity. anything that gives a 1:1 ratio (or less, obviously) is not worth it and is "out"... *unless* an improvement can in turn have a cascade effect of allowing *another* improvement that *does* increase the speed/$ ratio. >> sso i've been spending some time tracking down board designs and so >> on. Arduino Due: https://world.taobao.com/item/539393961702.htm RMB >> 75 so that's around $12. > > Dang those Due's are getting cheaper, back in my day those were a pretty > penny. yehyeh - my favourite's the STM32F072 as it has a built-in crystal (a not very good one) but then the PLL can phase-lock to the USB bus from whatever it's connected to, compensating for crystal inaccuracies. price? $1.70. STM32F072-NUCLEO board? $10 on digikey. mad. absolutely mad. >> and TRAMS uses TMC2100s, where their Reference Design has full PCB >> and schematics available: if i'm doing 10+ i can just send that to >> mike and he can make them. TRAMS is *real* basic. 4 steppers, 2 >> beefy power MOSFETs (extruder, printbed), 2 smaller ones for fans. > > <3 TMC2100's. Our PnP was going to use TMC2130's. Great German drivers. > However #1 they're hard as shit to import into China, which sucked for us at > the time. You can get damn near anything in China but this was one of those > parts that just isn't really something that they use. It was, to this day, > the only part that I could not find on Taobao. We may have smuggled our > samples in from Hong Kong. dang. well.. https://world.tmall.com/item/551108503978.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.3zdhiQ RMB 23. about $4. so that looks prooobably like it's sorted... > #2 they're only really necessary if you want to > squeeze performance out of your stepper motors. For our farm we never did > that, we didn't need to. $200 for a 50-100mm/sec printer with low-cost steppers... $300 for a 200-250mm/sec printer with only-slightly-higher-cost steppers... a 2x or greater speed improvement for only a 1.5x cost... that's an opportunity i can't ignore > >> MGN9C rails so that the problems associated with rods go away. >> triple lead screws (i might consider quadruple) on the printbed, NO >> CANTILEVERING. > > You're a madman. You sure like to over-engineer things, don't you? :) no, i simply like to properly and comprehensively assess all six degrees of freedom, which i am honestly constantly amazed that 3d printer designers don't do, and i like to properly and i do _mean_ properly research what the best mechanical options are. but... that's taken me about... 2-3 years to do (!) >> well, here's the thing: i actually quite like trying out things that >> other people aren't doing. but also taking calculated risks. > > Sounds like you've already got your mind made up. i've got an _approach_ (an assessment criteria) where my mind's made up, but nothing else. the one thing that i might add is "risk". as in it would *really* piss me off to have a chain of improvements that, at the end of the design process, there's something i missed which made the whole exercise totally frickin useless. i had that happen once before. not a huge fan of it happening again :) > I'm not here to tell you > what to do. I'm just sharing my experience and what worked for me. appreciated. > Like > many technical problems, it's all about the approach. There are as many > different approaches as there are engineers and business men. You know what > is ultimately best for your situation. If it were me in your shoes though > .. well, I'd never put myself in that position again, haha. Nope, one and > done, thank you very much. :) > Any of my future products I make will be CNC > machined, laser cut, or injection molded, and then outsourced. As long as > it's a durable product, it's not really any worse than the energy expended > to setup a printer farm. yehh we're not quite at the medium-volume phase yet, i don't want 10,000 people dropping by the forum expecting "user support" on "how to compile and patch linux kernel drivers" > > ...annd from your previous-previous email, I forgot to reply to this little > bit: > >> love it. well let's get you on the list for a pre-production prototype >> ok? > > Yea, hook a brother up. The pre-production is the A20 yes. > or is it the older > one? Are there any basic breakout boards or dev boards for it to plug into? yeah i have a breakout board PCB done (one component - the PCMCIA socket) and am also planning to get early devs a microdesktop as well. > If you need an address or anything like that just let me know. later. i just need numbers initially. l. From lasich at gmail.com Fri May 19 06:52:54 2017 From: lasich at gmail.com (Hrvoje Lasic) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 07:52:54 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] 3D printing requirements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: we tried resin for our prototypes. visually it looks quite nice but parts are easy to break, so would not consider it. many parts will not survive shipping alone. > > > You did address PLA a couple of times. How about the resin option? Any > > specifics? How many people ordered it? > > not many. i honestly haven't investigated resin fully, yet. i do > know it'll come out great, but it's lower on the priority list. > > l. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cand at gmx.com Fri May 19 07:16:28 2017 From: cand at gmx.com (Lauri Kasanen) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 09:16:28 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] 3D printing requirements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170519091628.c1f3588701f11692e31aefa2@gmx.com> On Fri, 19 May 2017 07:52:54 +0200 Hrvoje Lasic wrote: > we tried resin for our prototypes. visually it looks quite nice but parts > are easy to break, so would not consider it. many parts will not survive > shipping alone. How did you process them? They need some UV/sunlight to harden. - Lauri From auerswal at unix-ag.uni-kl.de Fri May 19 12:32:38 2017 From: auerswal at unix-ag.uni-kl.de (Erik Auerswald) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 13:32:38 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 Router Ethernet Speed Message-ID: <20170519113238.GB6853@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Hi, on http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/router/news/, the text and picture feature Gigabit Ethernet interfaces. Just one sentence mentions 10/100 Ethernet in passing. IMHO that is misleading. AFAIU the QCA9531 provides Fast Ethernet only, *NOT* Gigabit Ethernet. Thus please change any occurrences of GBE/GbE/Gbe or similar with FE, perhaps excluding the very first sentence. While Fast Ethernet is good enough for most uses, it is not Gigabit Ethernet. Please correct the web page. Thanks, Erik -- Reality continues to ruin my life. -- Calvin From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 19 15:55:18 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 15:55:18 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 Router Ethernet Speed In-Reply-To: <20170519113238.GB6853@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> References: <20170519113238.GB6853@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Message-ID: On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Erik Auerswald wrote: > Hi, > > on http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/router/news/, the text and > picture feature Gigabit Ethernet interfaces. Just one sentence mentions > 10/100 Ethernet in passing. > > IMHO that is misleading. AFAIU the QCA9531 provides Fast Ethernet only, > *NOT* Gigabit Ethernet. Thus please change any occurrences of GBE/GbE/Gbe > or similar with FE, perhaps excluding the very first sentence. > > While Fast Ethernet is good enough for most uses, it is not Gigabit > Ethernet. Please correct the web page. erik: it's an editable web page, being a wiki, so you can do that yourself. to stop spam i've had to set a password for creating accounts, and it's "passwordreqd". so whilst i'm delighted that you've highlighted some errors, the wording you're using "please correct the page" is not appropriate to use for a libre community project. the words you _meant_ to use are, "how can this page be changed" or "would someone like to *consider* changing the page" or "can i invite you to *consider* changing the page". basically anything which gives the expactation that someone *will* act on your behalf to action your wishes, when you're part of the community by being here and i've provided you with the right - and the trust - to action your wishes without immediate oversight or direct permission being required. so. do you want to try editing the page yourself, or does anyone else want to action erik's valuable contribution? l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Fri May 19 16:49:42 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 11:49:42 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 23:35:37 +0100 > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 8:51 PM, wrote: > > > lkcl says, he cannot make use of the rk3399 cpu > > no, i did not say that. i specifically said that it would be a total > waste of my time to *CONSIDER* using the rk3399 until *full reference > design CAD source files are available* > > > because he does not have the full schematics. > > no, i said full reference design PCB and schematic *CAD* files: > that's completely different, as full schematics are usually provided > in "PDF" format which are completely f*****g useless as you have to > re-enter absolutely everything into the CAD design system and it takes > weeks if not months... *and then you have to do the PCB as well*. > > > What are these schematics? > > you mean full reference design PCB and schematic CAD files. > > examples include: > > * http://beagleboard.org/hardware/design search that page for the > words "allegro" and "orcad" > * https://www.kosagi.com/w/index.php?title=Novena_PVT_Design_Source > search that page for "altium source" > * https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-Hardware and again look for the > ".DSN" (orcad) and ".brd" (allegro) files > * https://github.com/radxa/oshw/tree/master/rock_pro likewise > > and many, many more. Jetson TK1, Sabre Lite, Sabre iMX7 - there are > absolutely loads of examples. > > > > Can you tell in advance what schematics are required? > > you mean full reference design PCB and schematic CAD files. yes you > can tell: the best ones contain both an example PMIC layout as well as > the DDR RAM layout. the *absolute* best ones are a fully-working > board (typically named EVB - evaluation board) but a "beaglebone" or > somesuch will do just as well. > > a full reference design basically allows a transformation into a > fully working Card to take place in as little as three weeks. > > the ones that are a pain are the ones that *only* contain an example > DDR RAM layout to the processor. but this alone saves LITERALLY > months of effort. > > > Can you name them? > > name them... sort-of. > > words to use when doing google searches include "BSP" or "EVB" but if > that doesn't work try "{processor name} space {PCB CAD Design Package > name}" > > > Or do you require all of the full schematics? > > the more that is available the less time and money is wasted. > > > You do not know what schematics you require until you have read the full schematics? > > if you just want to READ the schematics you can do that with the > auto-generated (read-only) PDF that is otherwise f******g useless for > doing actual modifications because it's a read-only output from the > CAD package. > > obviously this will however allow you to assess whether the SOURCE of > the CAD files will be any good, such that you can decide whether > you're wasting your time or not. > > for example, it's no good if you have a tiny board and the PDF shows > that the design has (and requires) 8 DDR RAM ICs. or, if it uses > LPDDR RAM or uses POP (package-on-packagee) RAM, you need to make a > decision about that (see the neo900 nightmare they just had because > they picked a POP RAM) > > but once you have reviewed the *READ-ONLY* PDF, even if you obtain > the schematic SOURCE file, you STILL cannot make a final decision > because you NEED TO SEE THE PCB CAD LAYOUT FILE AS WELL. > > the PCB CAD file contains the footprints of the ICs, it contains > tracks laid out, ground planes all done and completed, and a huge > range of engineering expertise including R.F. and E.M. expertise of > the person who did the layout, all done, all of which you DO NOT HAVE > TO DUPLICATE. > > but sometimes the distance between the SoC and the RAM ICs will be > too great: in a small PCB the ICs would not fit, so you would need to > consider *modifying* one of the most difficult and challenging areas > to get right (the DDR layout). that's just nuts: you'd be wasting > your time, so it would be better to find a completely new layout that > someone else has already done. > > sometimes the PMIC (power management ICs) are in the wrong place for > the target PCB size you want, so you have to work out how to move (or > re-lay-out) those, or replace them entirely. that is a whole can of > worms on its own, so again it would be better to see if you can find a > new layout that's been tested and known to work. > > basically it's a hell of a lot of work even to *evaluate* a Reference Design. > > l. > I do not know about this. I understood it all wrong. I thought it was a matter of tfirefly withholding part of the full schematics. Is it correct to say, that the pdf schematics provide the required pieces of information for an eoma rk3399 pc card? Is it correct to say, that pdf full schematics are not easy usable for you in order to make an eoma rk3399 pc card? It is a matter of transforming pdf data into cad data? Having rk3399 cad data, you can make an eoma rk3399? Does tfirefly have the firefly rk3399 cad data? If so, why won't tfirefly make them public? Because a license prohibits it? Because competitors can use them? Lkcl, have you asked tfirefly to give you the full schematics cad data? Because I got to think, you said tfirefly is withholding some schematics, I wrote tfirefly asking them to email me the full schematics. Tfirefly never denied, that they had not made the full schematics public. They said, they could not disclose the full schematics. Maybe due to a lack of english skills on both sides. Then what should you ask tfirefly for? Full schematics cad data? > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lasich at gmail.com Fri May 19 17:04:20 2017 From: lasich at gmail.com (Hrvoje Lasic) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 18:04:20 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 May 2017 at 17:49, wrote: > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk > To: Eco-Conscious Computing > Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? > Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 23:35:37 +0100 > > > --- > > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > > > > On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 8:51 PM, wrote: > > > > > lkcl says, he cannot make use of the rk3399 cpu > > > > no, i did not say that. i specifically said that it would be a total > > waste of my time to *CONSIDER* using the rk3399 until *full reference > > design CAD source files are available* > > > > > because he does not have the full schematics. > > > > no, i said full reference design PCB and schematic *CAD* files: > > that's completely different, as full schematics are usually provided > > in "PDF" format which are completely f*****g useless as you have to > > re-enter absolutely everything into the CAD design system and it takes > > weeks if not months... *and then you have to do the PCB as well*. > > > > > What are these schematics? > > > > you mean full reference design PCB and schematic CAD files. > > > > examples include: > > > > * http://beagleboard.org/hardware/design search that page for the > > words "allegro" and "orcad" > > * https://www.kosagi.com/w/index.php?title=Novena_PVT_Design_Source > > search that page for "altium source" > > * https://github.com/NextThingCo/CHIP-Hardware and again look for the > > ".DSN" (orcad) and ".brd" (allegro) files > > * https://github.com/radxa/oshw/tree/master/rock_pro likewise > > > > and many, many more. Jetson TK1, Sabre Lite, Sabre iMX7 - there are > > absolutely loads of examples. > > > > > > > Can you tell in advance what schematics are required? > > > > you mean full reference design PCB and schematic CAD files. yes you > > can tell: the best ones contain both an example PMIC layout as well as > > the DDR RAM layout. the *absolute* best ones are a fully-working > > board (typically named EVB - evaluation board) but a "beaglebone" or > > somesuch will do just as well. > > > > a full reference design basically allows a transformation into a > > fully working Card to take place in as little as three weeks. > > > > the ones that are a pain are the ones that *only* contain an example > > DDR RAM layout to the processor. but this alone saves LITERALLY > > months of effort. > > > > > Can you name them? > > > > name them... sort-of. > > > > words to use when doing google searches include "BSP" or "EVB" but if > > that doesn't work try "{processor name} space {PCB CAD Design Package > > name}" > > > > > Or do you require all of the full schematics? > > > > the more that is available the less time and money is wasted. > > > > > You do not know what schematics you require until you have read the > full schematics? > > > > if you just want to READ the schematics you can do that with the > > auto-generated (read-only) PDF that is otherwise f******g useless for > > doing actual modifications because it's a read-only output from the > > CAD package. > > > > obviously this will however allow you to assess whether the SOURCE of > > the CAD files will be any good, such that you can decide whether > > you're wasting your time or not. > > > > for example, it's no good if you have a tiny board and the PDF shows > > that the design has (and requires) 8 DDR RAM ICs. or, if it uses > > LPDDR RAM or uses POP (package-on-packagee) RAM, you need to make a > > decision about that (see the neo900 nightmare they just had because > > they picked a POP RAM) > > > > but once you have reviewed the *READ-ONLY* PDF, even if you obtain > > the schematic SOURCE file, you STILL cannot make a final decision > > because you NEED TO SEE THE PCB CAD LAYOUT FILE AS WELL. > > > > the PCB CAD file contains the footprints of the ICs, it contains > > tracks laid out, ground planes all done and completed, and a huge > > range of engineering expertise including R.F. and E.M. expertise of > > the person who did the layout, all done, all of which you DO NOT HAVE > > TO DUPLICATE. > > > > but sometimes the distance between the SoC and the RAM ICs will be > > too great: in a small PCB the ICs would not fit, so you would need to > > consider *modifying* one of the most difficult and challenging areas > > to get right (the DDR layout). that's just nuts: you'd be wasting > > your time, so it would be better to find a completely new layout that > > someone else has already done. > > > > sometimes the PMIC (power management ICs) are in the wrong place for > > the target PCB size you want, so you have to work out how to move (or > > re-lay-out) those, or replace them entirely. that is a whole can of > > worms on its own, so again it would be better to see if you can find a > > new layout that's been tested and known to work. > > > > basically it's a hell of a lot of work even to *evaluate* a Reference > Design. > > > > l. > > > > > > I do not know about this. I understood it all wrong. I thought it was a > matter of tfirefly withholding part of the full schematics. > Is it correct to say, that the pdf schematics provide the required pieces > of information for an eoma rk3399 pc card? > Is it correct to say, that pdf full schematics are not easy usable for you > in order to make an eoma rk3399 pc card? > It is a matter of transforming pdf data into cad data? Having rk3399 cad > data, you can make an eoma rk3399? > Does tfirefly have the firefly rk3399 cad data? > If so, why won't tfirefly make them public? > Because a license prohibits it? > Because competitors can use them? > Lkcl, have you asked tfirefly to give you the full schematics cad data? > > Because I got to think, you said tfirefly is withholding some schematics, > I wrote tfirefly asking them to email me the full schematics. Tfirefly > never denied, that they had not made the full schematics public. They said, > they could not disclose the full schematics. Maybe due to a lack of english > skills on both sides. > > Then what should you ask tfirefly for? Full schematics cad data? > > > To undertake such a design reference design is needed. Without reference design it is virtually impossible or so time consuming that it makes no sense to even start. Luke pointed out some of most difficult parts that include memory design but also all other high speed parts (hdmi, usb etc..) then power section position i.e. position of capacitors, positions of power supply ic, then how to route ever increasing number of lines and so on. Even with well documented producers like TI or Freescale with all documentation and all reference cad designs it is hard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From auerswal at unix-ag.uni-kl.de Fri May 19 17:54:25 2017 From: auerswal at unix-ag.uni-kl.de (Erik Auerswald) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 18:54:25 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 Router Ethernet Speed In-Reply-To: References: <20170519113238.GB6853@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Message-ID: <20170519165425.GA14273@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Hi Luke, On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 03:55:18PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Erik Auerswald > wrote: > > on http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/router/news/, the text and > > picture feature Gigabit Ethernet interfaces. Just one sentence mentions > > 10/100 Ethernet in passing. > > > > IMHO that is misleading. AFAIU the QCA9531 provides Fast Ethernet only, > > *NOT* Gigabit Ethernet. Thus please change any occurrences of GBE/GbE/Gbe > > or similar with FE, perhaps excluding the very first sentence. > > > > While Fast Ethernet is good enough for most uses, it is not Gigabit > > Ethernet. Please correct the web page. > > erik: it's an editable web page, being a wiki, so you can do that > yourself. to stop spam i've had to set a password for creating > accounts, and it's "passwordreqd". > > so whilst i'm delighted that you've highlighted some errors, the > wording you're using "please correct the page" is not appropriate to > use for a libre community project. the words you _meant_ to use are, > "how can this page be changed" or "would someone like to *consider* > changing the page" or "can i invite you to *consider* changing the > page". Please excuse my insensitivity (or not, as you like, I do not intend to make you feel obligated to do anything). No offense intended. > basically anything which gives the expactation that someone *will* act > on your behalf to action your wishes, when you're part of the > community by being here and i've provided you with the right - and the > trust - to action your wishes without immediate oversight or direct > permission being required. > > so. do you want to try editing the page yourself, or does anyone else > want to action erik's valuable contribution? I have changed the text to use Fast Ethernet instead of the incorrect Gbe. I have not changed the image. Would you like to consider changing what is probably text in some CAD program to read "FE" instead of "GBE", re-export the schematic as an image and upload the more correct version? I expect that to look much better than me trying to change the image with an image editor. IMHO promoting a better specification than intended to deliver is dangerous for the project's reputation. Thanks, Erik -- Design your product to please the users. -- Paul Graham From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 19 18:17:16 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 18:17:16 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 4:49 PM, wrote: > I do not know about this. I understood it all wrong. I thought it was a matter of tfirefly withholding part of the full schematics. the t-firefly 3399 is designed, manufactured and sold by a third party compapy (t-firefly) that has *nothing* to do with rockchip, the manufacturer of the RK339 processor. > Is it correct to say, that the pdf schematics provide the required pieces of information for an eoma rk3399 pc card? that is incorrect in about two or three separate and distinct way. > Is it correct to say, that pdf full schematics are not easy usable for you in order to make an eoma rk3399 pc card? that would be correct in about two or three separate and distinct ways, the implications of which are that it would cost about $30,000 and take maybe 6 to 12 *months* to make an eoma rk3399 pc card purely from a PDF schematic. > It is a matter of transforming pdf data into cad data? yes, which is a f******g stupid way to do it, as everything has to be RE-ENTERED - by hand - into the CAD program, to make it "look" like the PDF output. then once that's done you then have to do the PCB design *from* the schematics, and that takes even longer. and will contain mistakes. it's basically a total waste of time and money to eveen consider. > Having rk3399 cad data, you can make an eoma rk3399? correct! and it would, in total contrast to trying the incredibly stupid idea of re-producing that CAD data taking almost a YEAR and cost tens of thousands of dollars because you made dozens of mistakes, take about 2-3 weeks instead. > Does tfirefly have the firefly rk3399 cad data? yes they do otherwise they would not be able to produce the Gerber files to send off to the PCB manufacturing factory. > If so, why won't tfirefly make them public? because it's their proprietary and confidential data that's why! they're a commercial company that wants to make money, having absolutely nothing to do with rockchip (who are just a supplier of the RK339 processor). why on earth would they destroy their own business by making it possible for people to take the CAD files, create some gerbers, have SOMEONE ELSE manufacture THEIR product and thus cut them completely out of the loop? that would be very dumb of them to do, if their business is to make money from selling t-firefly-rk3399 products, wouldn't it? > Because a license prohibits it? no. > Because competitors can use them? correct. > Lkcl, have you asked tfirefly to give you the full schematics cad data? no... because they would think i was a bit dumb. or worse, wanted to steal their business. i have no desire to piss them off. > Because I got to think, you said tfirefly is withholding some schematics, no i did not say that. it may be true but i would not have specifically said it. i may have said that *rockchip* has *not made available the reference design* which is a totally different matter. you may have then thought "rockchip equals firefly". please try not to make cross-connections and/or correlations that aren't actually the case. > I wrote tfirefly asking them to email me the full schematics. Tfirefly never denied, that they had not made the full schematics public. They said, they could not disclose the full schematics. Maybe due to a lack of english skills on both sides. no, you've just misunderstood their business model. please don't ask them again, it's not fair to ask them to make public something which will destroy their business model. > Then what should you ask tfirefly for? Full schematics cad data? absolutely nothing. you don't ask them for anything. they're a third party business - an OEM. and we also can't ask rockchip either, because we're not going to order a million of their processors, cash up-front... *until* they have made full CAD data available. classic catch 22 situation. so instead we wait - as i specifically, specifically said - until rockchip's Reference Designs leak out onto the public internet and are available on e.g. taobao or other site, for sale for $25. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 19 18:20:31 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 18:20:31 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > To undertake such a design reference design is needed. Without reference > design it is virtually impossible or so time consuming that it makes no > sense to even start. Luke pointed out some of most difficult parts that > include memory design but also all other high speed parts (hdmi, usb etc..) > then power section position i.e. position of capacitors, positions of power > supply ic, then how to route ever increasing number of lines and so on. Even > with well documented producers like TI or Freescale with all documentation > and all reference cad designs it is hard. yyep. usually i now just take a reference design and, as best i can, change as little as possible. on the RK3388 PCB i had to rotate the entire Power Management block - ICs, wires, power planes - by 90 degrees, to shoe-horn it into the available space. it worked. saved a *massive* amount of time, not having to redesign a power layout that is known to work. and you know what? it worked! the power section worked perfectly, first time. ok, so i shorted out some of the inductors and blew up $200 worth of components, on one of the boards, but hey, omelettes and eggs... :) l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 19 18:26:19 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 18:26:19 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 Router Ethernet Speed In-Reply-To: <20170519165425.GA14273@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> References: <20170519113238.GB6853@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> <20170519165425.GA14273@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Message-ID: On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 5:54 PM, Erik Auerswald wrote: > Hi Luke, > > On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 03:55:18PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Erik Auerswald >> wrote: >> > on http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/router/news/, the text and >> > picture feature Gigabit Ethernet interfaces. Just one sentence mentions >> > 10/100 Ethernet in passing. >> > >> > IMHO that is misleading. AFAIU the QCA9531 provides Fast Ethernet only, >> > *NOT* Gigabit Ethernet. Thus please change any occurrences of GBE/GbE/Gbe >> > or similar with FE, perhaps excluding the very first sentence. >> > >> > While Fast Ethernet is good enough for most uses, it is not Gigabit >> > Ethernet. Please correct the web page. >> >> erik: it's an editable web page, being a wiki, so you can do that >> yourself. to stop spam i've had to set a password for creating >> accounts, and it's "passwordreqd". >> >> so whilst i'm delighted that you've highlighted some errors, the >> wording you're using "please correct the page" is not appropriate to >> use for a libre community project. the words you _meant_ to use are, >> "how can this page be changed" or "would someone like to *consider* >> changing the page" or "can i invite you to *consider* changing the >> page". > > Please excuse my insensitivity (or not, as you like, I do not intend to > make you feel obligated to do anything). No offense intended. none taken. >> basically anything which gives the expactation that someone *will* act >> on your behalf to action your wishes, when you're part of the >> community by being here and i've provided you with the right - and the >> trust - to action your wishes without immediate oversight or direct >> permission being required. >> >> so. do you want to try editing the page yourself, or does anyone else >> want to action erik's valuable contribution? > > I have changed the text to use Fast Ethernet instead of the incorrect Gbe. awesome. > I have not changed the image. > > Would you like to consider changing what is probably text in some CAD > program to read "FE" instead of "GBE", re-export the schematic as an > image and upload the more correct version? I expect that to look much > better than me trying to change the image with an image editor. done... and i used... an image editor :) (gimp 2.8. why is gimp 2.8 so much worse a UI than 2.6??) > IMHO promoting a better specification than intended to deliver is > dangerous for the project's reputation. yehyeh absolutely - i just didn't know. and have so much else to do, i didn't check which is why this is a public project so that people _can_ make it known. so, thank you eric. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 19 18:31:26 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 18:31:26 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 Router Ethernet Speed In-Reply-To: References: <20170519113238.GB6853@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> <20170519165425.GA14273@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Message-ID: ok fast ethernet is just another name for 10/100. always learning something new. btw one thing i will be doing is splitting that PCB into two (stacked). funnily enough the PCB with EOMA68 on it will be.... a Mini-Desktop! i'll just need to use the exact same PCB4 from... the laptop project! strange how it's all sort-of fitting together... l. From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Sat May 20 05:59:43 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 07:59:43 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Luke ive been doing some googling and found this https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B7HO8lbGgAqAT1pZQTBxM3gzRFk Are any of these files useful? On 19 May 2017 20:20:31 GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> To undertake such a design reference design is needed. Without >reference >> design it is virtually impossible or so time consuming that it makes >no >> sense to even start. Luke pointed out some of most difficult parts >that >> include memory design but also all other high speed parts (hdmi, usb >etc..) >> then power section position i.e. position of capacitors, positions of >power >> supply ic, then how to route ever increasing number of lines and so >on. Even >> with well documented producers like TI or Freescale with all >documentation >> and all reference cad designs it is hard. > > yyep. usually i now just take a reference design and, as best i can, >change as little as possible. on the RK3388 PCB i had to rotate the >entire Power Management block - ICs, wires, power planes - by 90 >degrees, to shoe-horn it into the available space. it worked. saved >a *massive* amount of time, not having to redesign a power layout that >is known to work. > > and you know what? it worked! the power section worked perfectly, >first time. ok, so i shorted out some of the inductors and blew up >$200 worth of components, on one of the boards, but hey, omelettes and >eggs... :) > >l. > >_______________________________________________ >arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Sat May 20 14:55:57 2017 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 08:55:57 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Development boards for GuixSD Developers Message-ID: I asked over on the Guix development list if anyone would be interested in a dev board to help port GuixSD to the eoma68 board. So far there are two people who are interested. I've added them to http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/ and I'm making sure I haven't jumped the gun or anything. Does this look okay? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 20 15:01:06 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 15:01:06 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Development boards for GuixSD Developers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Louis Pearson wrote: > I asked over on the Guix development list if anyone would be interested in > a dev board to help port GuixSD to the eoma68 board. So far there are two > people who are interested. I've added them to > http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/ > and I'm making sure I haven't jumped the gun or anything. Does this look > okay? yeah looks great louis From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat May 20 15:47:14 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 10:47:14 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 18:17:16 +0100 > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 4:49 PM, wrote: > > > I do not know about this. I understood it all wrong. I thought it was a matter of tfirefly withholding part of the full schematics. > > the t-firefly 3399 is designed, manufactured and sold by a third > party compapy (t-firefly) that has *nothing* to do with rockchip, the > manufacturer of the RK339 processor. > > > Is it correct to say, that the pdf schematics provide the required pieces of information for an eoma rk3399 pc card? > > that is incorrect in about two or three separate and distinct way. > > > Is it correct to say, that pdf full schematics are not easy usable for you in order to make an eoma rk3399 pc card? > > that would be correct in about two or three separate and distinct > ways, the implications of which are that it would cost about $30,000 > and take maybe 6 to 12 *months* to make an eoma rk3399 pc card purely > from a PDF schematic. > > > It is a matter of transforming pdf data into cad data? > > yes, which is a f******g stupid way to do it, as everything has to be > RE-ENTERED - by hand - into the CAD program, to make it "look" like > the PDF output. > > then once that's done you then have to do the PCB design *from* the > schematics, and that takes even longer. and will contain mistakes. > > it's basically a total waste of time and money to eveen consider. Is it difficult or takes a lot of time? I ask because the converting to cad files cannot be split up in numerous pieces and put on a website, where people can each solve one piece? > > > Having rk3399 cad data, you can make an eoma rk3399? > > correct! and it would, in total contrast to trying the incredibly > stupid idea of re-producing that CAD data taking almost a YEAR and > cost tens of thousands of dollars because you made dozens of mistakes, > take about 2-3 weeks instead. > > > Does tfirefly have the firefly rk3399 cad data? > > yes they do otherwise they would not be able to produce the Gerber > files to send off to the PCB manufacturing factory. > > > If so, why won't tfirefly make them public? > > because it's their proprietary and confidential data that's why! > they're a commercial company that wants to make money, having > absolutely nothing to do with rockchip (who are just a supplier of the > RK339 processor). > > why on earth would they destroy their own business by making it > possible for people to take the CAD files, create some gerbers, have > SOMEONE ELSE manufacture THEIR product and thus cut them completely > out of the loop? > > that would be very dumb of them to do, if their business is to make > money from selling t-firefly-rk3399 products, wouldn't it? > > > > Because a license prohibits it? > > no. > > > Because competitors can use them? > > correct. > > > Lkcl, have you asked tfirefly to give you the full schematics cad data? > > no... because they would think i was a bit dumb. or worse, wanted to > steal their business. i have no desire to piss them off. > > > > Because I got to think, you said tfirefly is withholding some schematics, > > no i did not say that. it may be true but i would not have > specifically said it. i may have said that *rockchip* has *not made > available the reference design* which is a totally different matter. > > you may have then thought "rockchip equals firefly". > > please try not to make cross-connections and/or correlations that > aren't actually the case. > > > > I wrote tfirefly asking them to email me the full schematics. Tfirefly never denied, that they had not made the full schematics public. They said, they could not disclose the full schematics. Maybe due to a lack of english skills on both sides. > > no, you've just misunderstood their business model. please don't ask > them again, it's not fair to ask them to make public something which > will destroy their business model. > > > > Then what should you ask tfirefly for? Full schematics cad data? > > absolutely nothing. you don't ask them for anything. they're a > third party business - an OEM. > > and we also can't ask rockchip either, because we're not going to > order a million of their processors, cash up-front... *until* they > have made full CAD data available. > > classic catch 22 situation. > > so instead we wait - as i specifically, specifically said - until > rockchip's Reference Designs leak out onto the public internet and are > available on e.g. taobao or other site, for sale for $25. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 20 16:27:33 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 16:27:33 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: btw ron please do cut context that's not necessary, it was very hard to find the questions you wrote. On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 3:47 PM, wrote: >> then once that's done you then have to do the PCB design *from* the >> schematics, and that takes even longer. and will contain mistakes. >> > Is it difficult or takes a lot of time? I ask because the converting to cad files cannot be split up in numerous pieces and put on a website, where people can each solve one piece? so, cutting all but the relevant context, and answering just the questions you asked: there are two aspects. firstly, the schematics: these just take time. it could be parallelised in theory secondly, the PCB layout: this takes time *and* is difficult. creating the footprints for compoents could be parallelised, but the PCB layout - positioning of components, connecting components, laying out tracks and the planes? no - for such a small PCB that is best handled by one person with the required expertise. and that task alone takes months to do from scratch. l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat May 20 19:15:00 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 14:15:00 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] does arm-netbook get a forum? Message-ID: Will a forum get created for the pc card instead of this email list? From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat May 20 19:33:51 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 14:33:51 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mark an email no response from lkcl expected Message-ID: My questions are not important. It is interesting to get to know about the hardware discussed here. I do not know if lkcl has a policy of answering all emails. Can I mark an email 'no response from lkcl expected' such he knows not answering is an option if he has better things to do? Thank you lkcl for your work. It has to be difficult. From calmstorm at posteo.de Sat May 20 19:57:14 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 14:57:14 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mark an email no response from lkcl expected In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a4b1d09-a710-c044-aaf2-160880d41a1c@posteo.de> On 05/20/2017 02:33 PM, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > My questions are not important. It is interesting to get to know about the hardware discussed here. I do not know if lkcl has a policy of answering all emails. Can I mark an email 'no response from lkcl expected' such he knows not answering is an option if he has better things to do? Thank you lkcl for your work. It has to be difficult. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk I cannot even imagine the work he must have to do... yeah... no arguments from me about that. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 20 20:15:58 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 20:15:58 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] does arm-netbook get a forum? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:15 PM, wrote: > Will a forum get created for the pc card instead of this email list? at the right time yes. until then please honour the standard mailing list etiquette. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 20 20:22:25 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 20:22:25 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mark an email no response from lkcl expected In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:33 PM, wrote: > My questions are not important. they're all important. > It is interesting to get to know about the > hardware discussed here. I do not know if lkcl has a policy of answering all emails. pretty much yeah. the discussions are valuable to me. > Can I mark an email 'no response from lkcl expected' such he > knows not answering is an option if he has better things to do? if you like > Thank you lkcl for your work. It has to be difficult. well it is.... but not in the way(s) you might imagine. not least: there are plenty of people doing things that are easy, witnessed by the fact that they're already doing tiem. so, after a lot of thought, i deliberately pick the things that people are *not* doing... l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 20 22:05:45 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 22:05:45 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA50 Message-ID: http://elinux.org/Embedded_Open_Modular_Architecture/CompactFlash#Table_of_EOMA-CF_pinouts if you recall, someone kindly pointed out that USB3.1 does *not* need two sets of Tx/Rx differential pairs but only one. so ironically that means that four pins on an extremely low pincount standard are now free. i thought, "ah ha! should add a 2nd USB2 to EOMA50!" ... but should it? one of the things about SoCs that are that small, they can fit onto a 43x30mm PCB is: the probability of the pincount being high enough for them to have two USB2 interfaces is... debatable. the GR8 definitely does but that's just one SoC. and if it *doesn't*... then fitting a USB hub on there to provide two USB2 interfaces is going to be a bitch-and-a-half. also, two new pins are definitely free: "by default" i would make those EINT2 and EINT3 *but* the other option is to make them SPI data lines 2 and 3 (for 4-bit DDR SPI). choices, choices... i'm leaning towards 2 extra EINTs particularly as i have an idea in mind for a modular smartphone, and the addition of extra EINT-capable GPIO would allow a sub-module standard which has an EINT line "per module". mind you a break-out GPIO device (such as oo i dunno... a $1 STM32F!) is probably going to be needed for that design concept anyway. bizarre, isn't it: you can either choose a $1.50 dedicated GPIO breakout IC which only has 12 pins... or you can choose a $1 EC which has 32 or 48 pins and has GPIO, USB, SPI, ADC, DAC, I2C, UART... so bizarre. anyway. thoughts appreciated. l. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sat May 20 22:18:09 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 17:18:09 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My vote is for them to be SPI lines. That means more/faster RAM, right? RAM is the most 'visible' upgrade, performance-wise, that anyone can do to a (currently regular) computer... I realize you can't upgrade RAM within an EOMA card, but hey -- all the more reason to streamline it :) A pity that we can't have a "modular" (socketed/slotted) EOMA68 card... I realize CPU sockets are kind of going the way of the dodo, but I'd still like to be able to at least upgrade the RAM if I want to, without building myself a reflow toaster oven or some crap like that. I wouldn't say no to EOMA-specific RAM modules -- heck, use those awful super-tiny fiddly-as-crap Hirose connectors if ya have to (I hate 'em with a passion, but they do friggin' work) -- OEMs did proprietary RAM modules on laptops for years bordering on decades, back when you had to distinguish between "luggable" (Osborne 1, Compaq Portable), "clamshell" (GRiD Compass, modern junk), "partial clamshell" (IBM 5140 PC Convertible), etc... I have a Toshiba 3400CT like that (it's an early clamshell with a 486 inside). I'll never be able to afford a 16meg module for it, as a result, but (speaking to the whole group here) I think our Luke has *ahem* a bit more dedication to keeping things going and available for people, than Toshiba did back then...! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 20 23:35:58 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 23:35:58 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 10:18 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > My vote is for them to be SPI lines. > That means more/faster RAM, right? RAM... where did you get that idea from... *thinks*... DDR (double data rate), you might have confused that with the JEDEC RAM standards named "DDR1,2,3,4" so no it does not mean more/faster RAM. SPI's 4-data-lines mode (which happens also to have optional double-data-rate as part of the extension to SPI *on* those 4 data lines) is an unusual rarely-used mode of SPI which isn't very often supported on SoCs. so if there was an EOMA50 housing which requested it, almost certainly the SoCs would have to ignore it anyway, and do 2-wire (non-DDR, serial) SPI anyway... or look at doing 4-bit bit-banging at 50-100mhz. which would be quite CPU-intensive. i sort-of added it to EOMA68 for the hell of it, because the wires were there. but for EOMA50 there's less pins so... l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sat May 20 23:40:35 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 18:40:35 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry... DDR = RAM in my head. I *am* a computer nerd! EINTs sound best, then. OT: why no RAM slots in EOMA68? Routing too hard? No room? Both? Other, please specify...? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 21 00:25:01 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 00:25:01 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 11:40 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Sorry... DDR = RAM in my head. I *am* a computer nerd! :) > EINTs sound best, then. don't need an extra UART, SPI's already there, I2C's already there, how about another I2C bus? 1 PWM's already there... yeh i'm sorta-settling on 2x EINTs... *mulling*.... > OT: why no RAM slots in EOMA68? Routing too hard? No room? Both? Other, > please specify...? what's the practicality of either: (a) fitting a 70x40x6mm SO-DIMM onto a 78.1x43x5mm PCB? (b) including 90+ pins for DDR3 onto a 68-pin connector? From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun May 21 00:32:21 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 19:32:21 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: MicroDIMMs. Requires those awful, awful Hirose connectors, though... and they're not widely available (by which I mean "sold on eBay"). Or a proprietary (by which I mean "part of the standard but not used anywhere else") module setup, with the same drawbacks... I was really thinking it would only fit the Type III cards anyways. With the Type IIs, it sounds like you could 'cheat' by having a sheet of plastic over a shell cutout... but those size requirements are a bit, well, oy. You've got a point there. I didn't realize the outlines were that close. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 21 00:45:30 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 00:45:30 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ismo, hi, it was just too tempting to have an initial go at converting the CHIP_PRO_v1 schematic and PCB into a version of an EOMA68-GR8 card, deliberately cutting it down to the absolute basic minimum - after only about 6 hours i'm pretty much done connecting everything together, having cut/paste bits and pieces over: http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/gr8/ those are exported from PADS into 9.0 ASCII format if you want to take a look. importing from ORCAD/Allegro doesn't half make a dog's dinner of things... *sigh*... anyway it's the *absolute* absolute bare minimum. TV-out, gone, HP/MIC, gone. OTG, gone. NAND, gone. SDC2 is connected to a MicroSD slot, SDC0 is connected to EOMA68. SPI2 is connected to EOMA68 so in theory could also be used as bootable media (factory-install purposes only). boot is basically from on-board MicroSD, that can be over-ridden if people want to by using a Housing MicroSD card (if the Housing *has* one). the layout's hilarious: the PCB is over 50% completely empty. what i haven't done is: (1) complete the tracks / connections (2) add a VCC-3V3 power plane or other power planes. god did ORCAD make a mess... *sigh*. (3) convert any of the 0201 components to 0402 (for goodness sake don't use 0201 components!) (4) sort out any tracks as a result of 0201 conversions (5) re-add the copper pours for the power outputs from the inductors (to the AXP209). (6) do a full review to check that the dog's dinner mess made by ORCAD hasn't split some of the NETs. PADs doesn't support multi-named nets. i found one (and joined them) but there may be others. (7) sync'd PADS schematic and PCB so that a proper NETLIST review could be done. remember that this *really is* the bare minimum - it'll be amazingly an under $10 BOM. also that if you _did_ want to add HP and/or TV-out and/or MIC sockets, as well as OTG.... you can't: there's not enough room on the connector, not and have MicroSD as well. so you can do 3 out of 4 of those connectors but not all. also bear in mind that there's a couple of tabs on the Litkconn casework that fit *just* either side of the MicroSD, whch make it damn awkward to fit the MicroSD anywhere but directly in the middle of the end of the Card. also bear in mind that finding mid-mount 2.5in and 3.5in multi-pin jacks is a complete bitch. i *might* have one supplier (who speaks chinese only) who *might* be able to help, there (Runde). so - what ya wanna do? do you want to take over this layout/schematic from here and go with it? if you leave it as-is it should be easy to finish within a matter of 2-3 weeks, which means that it's potentially possible to add to the upcoming (2nd) planned crowdfunding campaign... or you could run your own. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 21 00:48:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 00:48:07 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Christopher Havel wrote: > MicroDIMMs. Requires those awful, awful Hirose connectors, though... and > they're not widely available (by which I mean "sold on eBay"). hmmm.... type III cards maaaybeee... 's'gonna be ridiculously tight though. and expensive. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun May 21 00:51:00 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 19:51:00 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry 'bout that. ...and for derailing another topic. We all have our talents, I suppose :P -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From calmstorm at posteo.de Sun May 21 01:40:25 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 20:40:25 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1995be72-b92b-91cc-e61f-7635c0ef5d8b@posteo.de> On 05/20/2017 06:35 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 10:18 PM, Christopher Havel > wrote: > >> My vote is for them to be SPI lines. >> That means more/faster RAM, right? > RAM... where did you get that idea from... *thinks*... DDR (double > data rate), you might have confused that with the JEDEC RAM standards > named "DDR1,2,3,4" > > so no it does not mean more/faster RAM. > > SPI's 4-data-lines mode (which happens also to have optional > double-data-rate as part of the extension to SPI *on* those 4 data > lines) is an unusual rarely-used mode of SPI which isn't very often > supported on SoCs. > > so if there was an EOMA50 housing which requested it, almost > certainly the SoCs would have to ignore it anyway, and do 2-wire > (non-DDR, serial) SPI anyway... or look at doing 4-bit bit-banging at > 50-100mhz. which would be quite CPU-intensive. what is eoma50 out of curiosity? > i sort-of added it to EOMA68 for the hell of it, because the wires > were there. but for EOMA50 there's less pins so... > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 21 01:59:05 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 01:59:05 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA50 In-Reply-To: <1995be72-b92b-91cc-e61f-7635c0ef5d8b@posteo.de> References: <1995be72-b92b-91cc-e61f-7635c0ef5d8b@posteo.de> Message-ID: zap please remember to cut unnecessary context, thanks. On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 1:40 AM, zap wrote: > what is eoma50 out of curiosity? ok so i have cut unnecessary context on your behalf, after searching quite hard to find this one single quetsion in amongst the unnecessary context. answer: the page with the link to the standard, which contains the answer to your question, is listed at the beginning of this thread. l. From leimon at gmail.com Sun May 21 03:59:15 2017 From: leimon at gmail.com (Mike Leimon) Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 19:59:15 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card / EOMA50 Message-ID: > the layout's hilarious: the PCB is over 50% completely empty. Allow me to be the first to point out that for this very reason this SOC might be an excellent candidate for the first SOC to adapt to the EOMA50 standard. > remember that this *really is* the bare minimum - it'll be amazingly an under $10 BOM. And here is another good reason to use it as a first pick... -Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 21 04:50:28 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 04:50:28 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card / EOMA50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 3:59 AM, Mike Leimon wrote: > >> the layout's hilarious: the PCB is over 50% completely empty. > > Allow me to be the first to point out that for this very reason this SOC > might be an excellent candidate for the first SOC to adapt to the EOMA50 > standard. exactly. now all i have to do is find suppliers in china that still do CF headers and sockets.... l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Sun May 21 15:18:22 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 10:18:22 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA50 In-Reply-To: References: <1995be72-b92b-91cc-e61f-7635c0ef5d8b@posteo.de> Message-ID: <873d657b-c839-02a1-bb15-8055a18268a4@posteo.de> On 05/20/2017 08:59 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > zap please remember to cut unnecessary context, thanks. > > On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 1:40 AM, zap wrote: > >> what is eoma50 out of curiosity? > ok so i have cut unnecessary context on your behalf, after searching > quite hard to find this one single quetsion in amongst the unnecessary > context. > > answer: the page with the link to the standard, which contains the > answer to your question, is listed at the beginning of this thread. I checked my messages and couldn't find the original thread, unless it is a router.... but if you would like I will not ask anymore. > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From benson.mitchell+arm-netbook at gmail.com Sun May 21 19:22:52 2017 From: benson.mitchell+arm-netbook at gmail.com (Benson Mitchell) Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 14:22:52 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 20, 2017 7:47 PM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" wrote: remember that this *really is* the bare minimum - it'll be amazingly an under $10 BOM. also that if you _did_ want to add HP and/or TV-out and/or MIC sockets, as well as OTG.... you can't: there's not enough room on the connector, not and have MicroSD as well. so you can do 3 out of 4 of those connectors but not all. Could you modify the casework and put the microSD sideways, so it's only accessible when the card is not in a housing, and then have room for all the connectors? I guess custom casework would be expensive, and could only make sense for high volume, but I just wondered if it even looks technically possible. Benson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 21 20:23:57 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 20:23:57 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Benson Mitchell wrote: > > Could you modify the casework and put the microSD sideways, so it's only > accessible when the card is not in a housing, and then have room for all the > connectors? not without custom casework (near-total redesign) or a top-loading micro-sd, with cutting a hole in the case and arranging (sourcing) a cover... no. > I guess custom casework would be expensive, yes. > and could only make sense for > high volume, but I just wondered if it even looks technically possible. the litkconn casework is a plastic frame with metal that is curved (curled) at the long edges, which clip in to the grooves along the plastic frame. if you try to do side-slotting along that you not only have tto cut the plastic frame but also the metal casework, which is massively complex and not very strong. top-loading would make sense but... honestly you'd just be better off dropping the on-board microsd and replacing it with eMMC, with all the associated problems that that brings (risk of bricking, requiring special recovery). l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 21 20:27:43 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 20:27:43 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA50 In-Reply-To: <873d657b-c839-02a1-bb15-8055a18268a4@posteo.de> References: <1995be72-b92b-91cc-e61f-7635c0ef5d8b@posteo.de> <873d657b-c839-02a1-bb15-8055a18268a4@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 3:18 PM, zap wrote: >>> what is eoma50 out of curiosity? >> answer: the page with the link to the standard, which contains the >> answer to your question, is listed at the beginning of this thread. > I checked my messages and couldn't find the original thread, i did not say "the original thread" i said "the beginning of *this* thread". how is the word "this" interpreted as "prior to this"? > unless it > is a router.... http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2017-May/013828.html so in that message, which is the *beginning of the thread not a prior message which could be considered to be the origin of this thread*, right at the very top is the link to the EOMA50 standards page: http://elinux.org/Embedded_Open_Modular_Architecture/CompactFlash#Table_of_EOMA-CF_pinouts l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sun May 21 23:06:55 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 18:06:55 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore Message-ID: Because I deleted a previously email about this subject, I start a new email. Info. Lkcl said, he is not in favor of reverse engineering a mali gpu. Because it is about 150000eu and new gpus will emerge during the reverse engineering and the outcome is uncertain. I agree on his arguments. I do not find them strong enough. Maybe lkcl assumed it was about a mali gpu on a pc card. It was not. My question was a general question about getting a broadly known mali gpu reverse engineered. In my email I referenced the https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly-rk3399-six-core-64-bit-high-performance-pl because according to lkcl it is as fast as a duo core intel mainboard and only the mali gpu software is not source code. There is no new arm source code computer for sale. I think one should be provided. People must be able to get one. 150000eu is a crowd funding of 30000 people, each 5eu. I would pay an extra 5eu to be able to buy a source code computer. I do not know if 30000 people are interested or if they can agree on one board. You cannot get the mali source code faster, if you put more people on it? From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun May 21 23:20:09 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 18:20:09 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hooooooooooooooold up there, Baba Looey! (for reference ) 30k is *not* a small number! 30k is a very large number. If I had 30k pennies in my bank account right now, instead of the 44 presently there, I'd be a happy man right now. I'd have three hundred dollars. My entire town is 8k people. The county within which it sits is ~42k. You are talking two thirds of the population of a slightly rural North Carolina county. I hope you're a real good salesman... or that you can and do hire one. You are talking what amounts to amassing a moderately-sized army in kickstarter terms (I use the word "kickstarter" generically here). That is a (pardon me) f*ckton of enthusiasm to drum up. That said... I wish you luck. You're going to need it! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bernardlprf at openmailbox.org Mon May 22 02:56:18 2017 From: bernardlprf at openmailbox.org (mdn) Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 03:56:18 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59224542.1060901@openmailbox.org> If you can get a crowdfund on a used/widely spread (and if lucky still in production) mali gpu and put the code under gpl you'll have 5 bucks and my voice around the people I know. The problem is always media coverage. You need to take examples on (ugh I have to say it) hype campaigns. I wish you luck. Freely BERNARD Le 22/05/2017 00:06, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net a écrit : > Because I deleted a previously email about this subject, I start a new email. > Info. Lkcl said, he is not in favor of reverse engineering a mali gpu. Because it is about 150000eu and new gpus will emerge during the reverse engineering and the outcome is uncertain. > > I agree on his arguments. I do not find them strong enough. Maybe lkcl assumed it was about a mali gpu on a pc card. It was not. My question was a general question about getting a broadly known mali gpu reverse engineered. In my email I referenced the https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly-rk3399-six-core-64-bit-high-performance-pl because according to lkcl it is as fast as a duo core intel mainboard and only the mali gpu software is not source code. > > There is no new arm source code computer for sale. I think one should be provided. People must be able to get one. 150000eu is a crowd funding of 30000 people, each 5eu. I would pay an extra 5eu to be able to buy a source code computer. > > I do not know if 30000 people are interested or if they can agree on one board. > You cannot get the mali source code faster, if you put more people on it? > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mike.valk at gmail.com Mon May 22 11:05:28 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 12:05:28 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-05-22 0:06 GMT+02:00 : > Because I deleted a previously email about this subject, I start a new > email. > Info. Lkcl said, he is not in favor of reverse engineering a mali gpu. > Because it is about 150000eu and new gpus will emerge during the reverse > engineering and the outcome is uncertain. > > I agree on his arguments. I assume you don not agree. 150000eu is a crowd funding of 30000 people, each 5eu. I would pay an > extra 5eu to be able to buy a source code computer. > Th issue with revese engineering the MALI gpu's is not justs about money. ARM ltd. actively Seeks and destroys attempts on a OSS mail driver. So that money needed is not only going to coding but is probably also needed for legel fees and marketing against the smear and laster campaign. They have already made one person's life very difficult: http://libv.livejournal.com/ > I do not know if 30000 people are interested or if they can agree on one > board. > But freeing MALI would help a lot of devices out there. So I'd trough in some bucks. RE'ing MALI would not be for just one board. > You cannot get the mali source code faster, if you put more people on it? > Finding the right minds and right amount of them working on the same thing is a hard equation. You could add me to that team but my skills would be of limited use. Adding someone of the same skill set would probably be even less effective. So more money or more people is not the solutions. The right people and the right amount is needed. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vkontogpls at gmail.com Mon May 22 11:21:11 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 13:21:11 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 1:06 AM, wrote: > > > > I do not know if 30000 people are interested or if they can agree on one > board. > You cannot get the mali source code faster, if you put more people on it? > Look at what happened to Luc Verhaegen. Arm has destroyed his life. The company is hard at work killing any attempt at a libre driver. You will have a hard time finding people willing to work for this. Also 30k is a lot of people for a kickstarter. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bernardlprf at openmailbox.org Mon May 22 19:01:23 2017 From: bernardlprf at openmailbox.org (mdn) Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 20:01:23 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59232773.5000600@openmailbox.org> Le 22/05/2017 12:05, mike.valk at gmail.com a écrit : > 2017-05-22 0:06 GMT+02:00 : > >> Because I deleted a previously email about this subject, I start a new >> email. >> Info. Lkcl said, he is not in favor of reverse engineering a mali gpu. >> Because it is about 150000eu and new gpus will emerge during the reverse >> engineering and the outcome is uncertain. >> >> I agree on his arguments. > > I assume you don not agree. > > 150000eu is a crowd funding of 30000 people, each 5eu. I would pay an >> extra 5eu to be able to buy a source code computer. >> > > Th issue with revese engineering the MALI gpu's is not justs about money. > ARM ltd. actively Seeks and destroys attempts on a OSS mail driver. > > So that money needed is not only going to coding but is probably also > needed for legel fees and marketing against the smear and laster campaign. > > They have already made one person's life very difficult: > http://libv.livejournal.com/ Ho yes I remember that now. The thing is, is that one wants to avoid to be persecuted you have to: -Avoid electronic money (or at least one that doesn't tie your real name too it). -Having your name tied to the project it (staying anonymous) -Having people who don't have a lot to loose (if they can stay anonymous this isn't a big problem). -Having a server that won't reveal the ID of the people participating on the project (Tor or GNUnet only) There are some projects that exist already on these mesh networks. The problem will always be money and official crowdfunding systems that needs to have IDs (which is kinda normal). > > >> I do not know if 30000 people are interested or if they can agree on one >> board. >> > > But freeing MALI would help a lot of devices out there. So I'd trough in > some bucks. RE'ing MALI would not be for just one board. > > > >> You cannot get the mali source code faster, if you put more people on it? >> > > Finding the right minds and right amount of them working on the same thing > is a hard equation. > > You could add me to that team but my skills would be of limited use. Adding > someone of the same skill set would probably be even less effective. > > So more money or more people is not the solutions. The right people and the > right amount is needed. > > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 22 22:12:28 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 22:12:28 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] "lkcl may ignore" - please do not put that in subject lines Message-ID: so this is a nice experiment, but i'd really prefer it if people did not put my initials into subject lines. the result is dozens of repetitions which gets stale very very quickly: http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2017-May/thread.html From njansen1 at gmail.com Mon May 22 22:28:21 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 17:28:21 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: <59232773.5000600@openmailbox.org> References: <59232773.5000600@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 2:01 PM, mdn wrote: > The thing is, is that one wants to avoid to be persecuted you have to: > -Avoid electronic money (or at least one that doesn't tie your real name > too it). > -Having your name tied to the project it (staying anonymous) > -Having people who don't have a lot to loose (if they can stay anonymous > this isn't a big problem). > -Having a server that won't reveal the ID of the people participating on > the project (Tor or GNUnet only) > There are some projects that exist already on these mesh networks. Crowdfunding and anonymity DO NOT go together. I'm not backing a project from some random hacker via bitcoin or Western Union, nope not going to happen. There are enough problems with crowdfunding campaigns that aren't anonymous, the way I see it. I'd crowdfund a legitimate (non-anonymous campaign) to (A) raise awareness for the need of FOSS graphics drivers, (B) help fund a legal group to make it easier for hackers and hobbyists to reverse engineer what they have purchased, or (C) raise funds to help individuals like Luc Verhaegen that have gotten smeared but want to keep fighting. Or (D) if anyone in a matter of years/decades/whatever is crazy enough to attempt a completely FOSS GPU core which won't come cheap or easy. Something like Project VGA but scaled up in complexity and down in size. But that's about it. Other people's mileage many vary. But being that Wikipedia and other sources aren't even really mentioning all of the litigation and smearing going on, I'd suggest to start by maybe getting the word out, maybe edit a few wikipedia pages to make that a bit more apparent. I don't even see it mentioned in the talk pages. This group was literally the first time that I've heard of it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 23 02:27:24 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 02:27:24 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] designing a low-cost decent 3d printing board Message-ID: hi all, ok so i've been looking around and the practice of creating a "modular" 3d printing electronics board is extremely common, thanks, many years ago, to the stupid, stupid decision to use prototyping (evaulation) plugin boards with 1.3 to 2.0 *amp* stepper ICs mounted onto micro-postage-stamp-sized PCBs. the problems these cause are endless. *some* people have actually read the datasheets associated with these driver ICs and have designed PCBs that respect the advice of the designers, by making sure that a large part of the PCB's copper is used as a heat-spreader. however the practice is not very common, and the people who make such boards are typically actual well-trained electronics engineers from the west, but who then use western PCB manufacturing and assembly plants, end result: very expensive boards ($120 to $200). as i would like to see both a low-cost board made *and* have a decent design, and having researched this for many weeks and found that what i am searching for DOES NOT EXIST i need some help. the board i believe is best started from is the Duet WIFI: https://github.com/T3P3/Duet this uses 2.5A TMC2660 "silent" steppers and importantly they're SPI-based. the idea is to cut the DuetWIFI down to the *absolute* bare minimum, turning it into the exact same thing as TRAMS (which uses the 1.3A TMC5130). so instead of an on-board ATSAM4, you use an arduino due. instead of WIFI you use a *standard arduino WIFI shield*. now, debatable is whether to split out the MOSFETs, endstops and thermistors into their own separate shield as well, which i feel might be sensible. in particular i would very much like to "stack" the steppers because i have a design where it is going to use *four* z-axes. in a first iteration those may be wired up as 2x 2-serial in parallel, however it would be very *very* nice to be able to just add a second "stack" of 4 z-axis steppers and use them to do automatic bed-levelling. so to do that it would mean having on-board jumpers that could select alternative GPIO pins... or maybe to use an I2C-based or SPI-based GPIO expander in order to reduce the amount of GPIO needed. however an alternative idea which would do just as well (without needing too much work) would be to have the expectation that there would be a "base board" into which *two* modular 4x TMC2660 stepper boards would be plugged, and an arduino due, *and* the MOSFET/endstop/thermistor board, and the *base* board would take care of GPIO expansion. anyone considering this: the layout on the DuetWIFI for its steppers is very *very* specific and should really not be touched or altered, merely cut away surrounding parts and add the necessary arduino-compatible headers. any takers for what is likely to be a quite straightforward project? l. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From mike.valk at gmail.com Tue May 23 08:16:56 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 09:16:56 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] designing a low-cost decent 3d printing board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-05-23 3:27 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > hi all, > > ok so i've been looking around and the practice of creating a > "modular" 3d printing electronics board is extremely common, thanks, > many years ago, to the stupid, stupid decision to use prototyping > (evaulation) plugin boards with 1.3 to 2.0 *amp* stepper ICs mounted > onto micro-postage-stamp-sized PCBs. the problems these cause are > endless. > You're being a bit brief here. But essentially, the community has been using "default" boards, which are cheapish and fairly documented/understood, but too generic and thus not able enough? > so instead of an on-board ATSAM4, you use an arduino due. instead of > WIFI you use a *standard arduino WIFI shield*. > Read about a guy RE'ing "hoverboards" and he's creating an OSS firmware replacement for these, which seem to be desinged around the fafourite STM32F*. https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/About_the_project.html But how about the ESP32? (Successor to the ESP8266). Reasonable beefy CPU with build in WiFi. The Duet is using the ESP8266 as the WiFi bridge. now, debatable is whether to split out the MOSFETs, endstops and > thermistors into their own separate shield as well, which i feel might > be sensible. > Why not place all controllers separately and direct to their HW and connect them via a bus? This gives you freedom to expand and replace. And use a EOMA card as the "master"? 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URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 23 08:29:44 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 08:29:44 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] designing a low-cost decent 3d printing board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 8:16 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-05-23 3:27 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> >> hi all, >> >> ok so i've been looking around and the practice of creating a >> "modular" 3d printing electronics board is extremely common, thanks, >> many years ago, to the stupid, stupid decision to use prototyping >> (evaulation) plugin boards with 1.3 to 2.0 *amp* stepper ICs mounted >> onto micro-postage-stamp-sized PCBs. the problems these cause are >> endless. > > > You're being a bit brief here. sorry. > But essentially, the community has been using > "default" boards, which are cheapish and fairly documented/understood, but > too generic and thus not able enough? no, look up "polulu stepper boards". the entire home-grown 3d printing industry is suffering from ignorant "copy copy copy" itis. the first person to use the prototyping stepper driver boards *didn't* read the documentation, and does NOT understand the consequences of their ignorance. in this case it's that the heat generated by a 2A driver IC can't escape out of an 18x18mm PCB so it overheats and stops working. sometimes temporarily, and sometimes permanently. it's shit design gone badly wrong, copy-copy-copy-copy. no actual thought involved. > But how about the ESP32? (Successor to the ESP8266). Reasonable beefy CPU > with build in WiFi. The Duet is using the ESP8266 as the WiFi bridge. the idea is to be able to get off-the-shelf low-cost arduinos for $10 as opposed to having a larger PCB custom-made that costs $40 because you're using a USA-based factory and component pricing which has a 4-5x markup. plus, porting to the ESP32 is a lot of effort. splitting out the processor board into a "stock" arduino leaves very little to do in the way of software porting. >> now, debatable is whether to split out the MOSFETs, endstops and >> thermistors into their own separate shield as well, which i feel might >> be sensible. > > > Why not place all controllers separately and direct to their HW and connect > them via a bus? This gives you freedom to expand and replace. And use a EOMA > card as the "master"? lots and lots of pins. nice idea, but no. > Or would that kind of modularity up the costs too much? too many pins: the duet-wifi requires an ATSAM4 with 100 GPIO pins. maybe 64. some of them ADC. that's too many. now it turns out that the cost of those "ADC-to-I2C" or "ADC-to-SPI" ICs (etc) are actually just as expensive if not more than an embedded controller! so by the time you've added in a GPIO extender IC (I2C or SPI based), an ADC extender IC, you might as well just.... drop in an STM32F or an ATSAM in the first place. cheapest way to do that in a modular fashion? surpriiise! use an STM32xxx-NUCLEO, or an Arduino Due. l. From ismo.vaananen at gmail.com Tue May 23 14:25:08 2017 From: ismo.vaananen at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?SXNtbyBWw6TDpG7DpG5lbg==?=) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 16:25:08 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] arm-netbook Digest, Vol 82, Issue 47 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 00:45:30 +0100 > From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > To: Eco-Concscious Computing > Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card > Message-ID: > DH7MuhRDw at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > ismo, hi, > > it was just too tempting to have an initial go at converting the > CHIP_PRO_v1 schematic and PCB into a version of an EOMA68-GR8 card, > deliberately cutting it down to the absolute basic minimum - after > only about 6 hours i'm pretty much done connecting everything > together, having cut/paste bits and pieces over: > > http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/gr8/ > > those are exported from PADS into 9.0 ASCII format if you want to take a > look. > Sweet, thanks. Just imported these to Altium. Actually noticed that the Allegro .brd import in to Altium needs Allegro installed to function. The imported layout looks like this: https://i.imgur.com/uPmEsQb.png > importing from ORCAD/Allegro doesn't half make a dog's dinner of > things... *sigh*... > It so does. None of the component parameters for the passives carried over in the import. The component values imported as separate strings for the passives, at least the cases are OK. Of course, the mentioned cases don't exist. So that needs some additional work. > anyway it's the *absolute* absolute bare minimum. TV-out, gone, > HP/MIC, gone. OTG, gone. NAND, gone. SDC2 is connected to a MicroSD > slot, SDC0 is connected to EOMA68. SPI2 is connected to EOMA68 so in > theory could also be used as bootable media (factory-install purposes > only). boot is basically from on-board MicroSD, that can be > over-ridden if people want to by using a Housing MicroSD card (if the > Housing *has* one). > That's OK with me. More space to use for potential future expansion. > the layout's hilarious: the PCB is over 50% completely empty. what i > haven't done is: > > (1) complete the tracks / connections > (2) add a VCC-3V3 power plane or other power planes. god did ORCAD > make a mess... *sigh*. > (3) convert any of the 0201 components to 0402 (for goodness sake > don't use 0201 components!) > (4) sort out any tracks as a result of 0201 conversions > Ya 0402 is a lot more sane to deal with than 0201. > (5) re-add the copper pours for the power outputs from the inductors > (to the AXP209). > This and in general figure out the power stuff. > (6) do a full review to check that the dog's dinner mess made by ORCAD > hasn't split some of the NETs. PADs doesn't support multi-named nets. > i found one (and joined them) but there may be others. > (7) sync'd PADS schematic and PCB so that a proper NETLIST review could be > done. > It's gona be FUN mating the CHIP Pro schematic files with that layout. Absolute joy. > remember that this *really is* the bare minimum - it'll be amazingly > an under $10 BOM. also that if you _did_ want to add HP and/or TV-out > and/or MIC sockets, as well as OTG.... you can't: there's not enough > room on the connector, not and have MicroSD as well. so you can do 3 > out of 4 of those connectors but not all. > I'll fully decide on this later on, USB+Video would allow for standalone use. And sort-of usable while standalone is aligned with the spirit of the EOMA68 standard (or how I see it at least). also bear in mind that there's a couple of tabs on the Litkconn > casework that fit *just* either side of the MicroSD, whch make it damn > awkward to fit the MicroSD anywhere but directly in the middle of the > end of the Card. > Where can I find datasheets, drawings or 3d models for the Litckonn cases? Can I buy a few sample units from somewhere for fiddling around? > also bear in mind that finding mid-mount 2.5in and 3.5in multi-pin > jacks is a complete bitch. i *might* have one supplier (who speaks > chinese only) who *might* be able to help, there (Runde). > I'm perfectly OK with deleting the sound input/output. Just a shame to leave the sound hardware unused when it exists. > so - what ya wanna do? do you want to take over this layout/schematic > from here and go with it? if you leave it as-is it should be easy to > finish within a matter of 2-3 weeks, which means that it's potentially > possible to add to the upcoming (2nd) planned crowdfunding campaign... > or you could run your own. > More or less regardless of crowdfunding or anything I'll continue doing work on my vision of what a GR8 based EOMA68 card would be. But my progress won't be fast as I'm working full time and doing the same stuff at home as I do at work is not attractive every single day. A low cost alternative for low powered embedded applications might also be attractive to some folks and in general for testing and debugging housings. On an other note, replying to this list while it's in digest mode is a bit weird. I might have to change it from digest to the individual message style and hope that gmail is good enough at clumping the threads. -Ismo / 2ftg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.valk at gmail.com Tue May 23 14:33:57 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 15:33:57 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-05-21 1:45 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > the layout's hilarious: the PCB is over 50% completely empty. what i > haven't done is: > Would it make sense to add a small LiPo battery, to fill the empty space? That way you can swap a card from one housing to another, without the need to reboot. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Tue May 23 14:34:12 2017 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 08:34:12 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] arm-netbook Digest, Vol 82, Issue 47 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As someone using gmail (unfortunately), I can confirm that yes, it does clump the threads together. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 23 18:58:27 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 18:58:27 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 2:33 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-05-21 1:45 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> >> the layout's hilarious: the PCB is over 50% completely empty. what i >> haven't done is: > > > Would it make sense to add a small LiPo battery, to fill the empty space? > That way you can swap a card from one housing to another, without the need > to reboot. aiyaaa that's a great idea.... except i'd have to add back in the battery-charging circuits i just removed, and it would add quite a bit to the bom..... and would mean special certifications for shipping would be needed - testing for batteries: crush, destruction, all great stuff to watch but ultimately really rather costly. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 23 19:29:50 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 19:29:50 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] arm-netbook Digest, Vol 82, Issue 47 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 2:25 PM, Ismo Väänänen wrote: >> Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 00:45:30 +0100 >> From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> To: Eco-Concscious Computing >> Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] GR8 based EOMA68 card >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >> >> ismo, hi, >> >> it was just too tempting to have an initial go at converting the >> CHIP_PRO_v1 schematic and PCB into a version of an EOMA68-GR8 card, >> deliberately cutting it down to the absolute basic minimum - after >> only about 6 hours i'm pretty much done connecting everything >> together, having cut/paste bits and pieces over: >> >> http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/gr8/ >> >> those are exported from PADS into 9.0 ASCII format if you want to take a >> look. > > > Sweet, thanks. Just imported these to Altium. > Actually noticed that the Allegro .brd import in to Altium needs Allegro > installed to function. yes: it uses COM (or DLLs) from allegro. but that .ASC file i made available was not *in* allegro, it was PADS 9.0. > The imported layout looks like this: https://i.imgur.com/uPmEsQb.png looks pretty good. >> >> importing from ORCAD/Allegro doesn't half make a dog's dinner of >> things... *sigh*... > > > It so does. None of the component parameters for the passives carried over > in the import. > The component values imported as separate strings for the passives, at least > the cases are OK. > Of course, the mentioned cases don't exist. So that needs some additional > work. the values in the *board* are not important because you will not be generating the BOM from the *board*, you will be generating the BOM as a report from the *schematic*. >> >> anyway it's the *absolute* absolute bare minimum. TV-out, gone, >> HP/MIC, gone. OTG, gone. NAND, gone. SDC2 is connected to a MicroSD >> slot, SDC0 is connected to EOMA68. SPI2 is connected to EOMA68 so in >> theory could also be used as bootable media (factory-install purposes >> only). boot is basically from on-board MicroSD, that can be >> over-ridden if people want to by using a Housing MicroSD card (if the >> Housing *has* one). > > > That's OK with me. More space to use for potential future expansion. ... which, can i recommend that you consider for a much later revision, get a first one out the door? > Ya 0402 is a lot more sane to deal with than 0201. i'm not even sure if mike's factory can handle 0201, it's pretty ridiculously small. >> >> (5) re-add the copper pours for the power outputs from the inductors >> (to the AXP209). > > > This and in general figure out the power stuff. there's actually not a lot to figure out as this is such a simple board. the main one to make sure you do as a big plane area (on the power layer) is VCC-3V3. make sure it's big enough and wide enough to extend to all the VIAs but don't go overboard. extend it only as needed. remember all the "usual" messing about with DDR power planes, all that's gone because the DDR's *on-board* the actual processor. >> >> (6) do a full review to check that the dog's dinner mess made by ORCAD >> hasn't split some of the NETs. PADs doesn't support multi-named nets. >> i found one (and joined them) but there may be others. >> (7) sync'd PADS schematic and PCB so that a proper NETLIST review could be >> done. > > > It's gona be FUN mating the CHIP Pro schematic files with that layout. > Absolute joy. you don't have to make *any* schematic files because that's the second file i uploaded. you just import that and you're done. >> >> remember that this *really is* the bare minimum - it'll be amazingly >> an under $10 BOM. also that if you _did_ want to add HP and/or TV-out >> and/or MIC sockets, as well as OTG.... you can't: there's not enough >> room on the connector, not and have MicroSD as well. so you can do 3 >> out of 4 of those connectors but not all. > > > I'll fully decide on this later on, USB+Video would allow for standalone > use. > And sort-of usable while standalone is aligned with the spirit of the EOMA68 > standard (or how I see it at least). no it isn't. it's a possibility but in absolutely no way is a requirement. the only reason i did it for the A20 is because the A20 has 3 USB ports (one of them OTG) and can handle 2 separate and distinct simultaneous video outputs. >> also bear in mind that there's a couple of tabs on the Litkconn >> casework that fit *just* either side of the MicroSD, whch make it damn >> awkward to fit the MicroSD anywhere but directly in the middle of the >> end of the Card. > > > Where can I find datasheets, drawings or 3d models for the Litckonn cases? with that PCB and schematic i did for you, and using mike's factory, you won't actually need them. you can however find them amongst http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/allwinner/ http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/allwinner/litkconn-pcmcia-case-ch-pc-20.pdf > Can I buy a few sample units from somewhere for fiddling around? i introduced you to mike but you have not responded. you need to keep an eye on that. when communicating with mike please keep communication SIMPLE. "hello mike please quote me for sending X sample litkconn pcmcia cases and pcmcia connectors, please provide bank details so i can wire you some money". and "hello mike please quote me for production of 10 sample PCBs including assembly, it is a 6-layer stack, FR4, 1.2mm, here are the gerbers and the BOM". if you need anything else from him please CONSULT ME FIRST. >> >> also bear in mind that finding mid-mount 2.5in and 3.5in multi-pin >> jacks is a complete bitch. i *might* have one supplier (who speaks >> chinese only) who *might* be able to help, there (Runde). > > > I'm perfectly OK with deleting the sound input/output. > Just a shame to leave the sound hardware unused when it exists. mid-mount connectors are pretty fragile, as they are cut-aways from the PCB. if you have several of them you risk weakening the PCB so much that people destroy the Card through careless lack of attention when inserting or removing sockets, or forgetting that the cable's there. we'll just have to see how things get on with the A20 Card but i do expect it to be a problem, people tripping over cables and ripping out the actual USB or MicroHDMI socket. >> >> so - what ya wanna do? do you want to take over this layout/schematic >> from here and go with it? if you leave it as-is it should be easy to >> finish within a matter of 2-3 weeks, which means that it's potentially >> possible to add to the upcoming (2nd) planned crowdfunding campaign... >> or you could run your own. > > > More or less regardless of crowdfunding or anything I'll continue doing work > on my vision of what a GR8 based EOMA68 card would be. > But my progress won't be fast as I'm working full time and doing the same > stuff at home as I do at work is not attractive every single day. hehe i know that one. you need something sufficiently different. > A low cost alternative for low powered embedded applications might also be > attractive to some folks and in general for testing and debugging housings. hum.... hum.... ok i need an extra campaign and it needs to start pretty soon (within 2-3 months), with extra Cards and Housings in it, to be launched *simultaneously* as the A20 Cards and Microdesktop housings are shipping. if that does not fit in with your planned down-time-schedule, how about this: how about i get that Card up-and-running ASAP, keep you up-to-date, then you will have something that's more-or-less completed to work from which has many more features, how about that? > On an other note, replying to this list while it's in digest mode is a bit > weird. ah - i wondered why the delay. > I might have to change it from digest to the individual message style > and hope that gmail is good enough at clumping the threads. it is.... but you'll need to keep an eye out for anything mentioning "GR8" with specific regular searches. and please make sure that you prioritise communications from mike as "important" (star them). l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Wed May 24 18:25:12 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 13:25:12 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 16:27:33 +0100 > btw ron please do cut context that's not necessary, it was very hard > to find the questions you wrote. > > On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 3:47 PM, wrote: > > >> then once that's done you then have to do the PCB design *from* the > >> schematics, and that takes even longer. and will contain mistakes. > >> > > > Is it difficult or takes a lot of time? I ask because the converting to cad files cannot be split up in numerous pieces and put on a website, where people can each solve one piece? > > so, cutting all but the relevant context, and answering just the > questions you asked: there are two aspects. > > firstly, the schematics: these just take time. it could be > parallelised in theory > > secondly, the PCB layout: this takes time *and* is difficult. > creating the footprints for compoents could be parallelised, but the > PCB layout - positioning of components, connecting components, laying > out tracks and the planes? no - for such a small PCB that is best > handled by one person with the required expertise. > > and that task alone takes months to do from scratch. > > l. Do you make your pc card a20 cad files public? > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Wed May 24 20:07:45 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:07:45 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Neil Jansen Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 17:28:21 -0400 If you reinterpret what I write then tell on what grounds. I think lkcl's reasons for not reverse engineering a mali are right. Weighing them up against the importance of getting a libre software gpu, I reach the conclusion that the reverse engineering should be done. There have been some remarks about the probability of a successful crowd funding. I mentioned the numbers 50000 people, each paying 5euro. Notice on this email list, people want to pay 5eu, if they get the software in question. It is safe to say more than 10 million people have gnulinux on their computer? A major part of them know about the importance of libre software and a part of them would want to act on it. I agree about the responses on the practicability of a crowd funding. I am not sure a crowd funding can be done successfully. I would like to know why? Why cannot such campaigns be coordinated centralized? We should have a known entity, which would approve libre software related crowd fundings. People would know them to not be scams. Why does an entity like the free software foundation not take on this task? I should ask them. About these fragmented crowd fundings, you yourself have to make a validation, which is difficult. When lkcl initiated his pc card crowd funding, I did not know him. I still mostly do not. On trisquel's forum people referenced thinkpenguin. Thinkpenguin endorsed lkcl. That is why I supported lkcl. Is the free software foundation not involved because they fear scandals or not have enough resources? The matter about libre software consumer electronics, I consider highly important. There have been remarks about the retaliation towards people who want to do reverse engineering. How to deal with it. One option would be to let one entity collect the funding, manage public relations and another hidden team do the reverse engineering. Everything still legal on taxes. Legalities seems to be an important issue. Are these legal concerns an american matter? I do not know everything which may happen but if the public part of the crowd funding is located in eu, I think a campaign should be fine. From pablo at parobalth.org Wed May 24 21:40:07 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 22:40:07 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170524203818.GA26370@pabbook> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 03:07:45PM -0400, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > If you reinterpret what I write then tell on what grounds. I think lkcl's reasons for not reverse engineering a mali are right. It is difficult to follow your argumentation. You write that you agree and disagree in the next sentence. >Weighing them up against the importance of getting a libre software gpu, I reach the conclusion that the reverse engineering should be done. Before you plan a difficult crowd funding campaign and involve the FSF, please tell us your counter arguments to Lukes reasoning on a technical and ethical level. For example to the following points I am quoting from Lukes email reply to you in the thread about "firefly 3399 all source software disclosed?": - "take one of the "open gpus" or parts of them and use that." - "the sad fact of reverse-engineering: all that effort, with *no guarantee of success*.... just to get something that's years out-of-date." - "well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own libre processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D graphics *without* paying anyone a cent." > There have been some remarks about the probability of a successful crowd funding. I mentioned the numbers 50000 people, each paying 5euro. Notice on this email list, people want to pay 5eu, if they get the software in question. >It is safe to say more than 10 million people have gnulinux on their computer? A major part of them know about the importance of libre software and a part of them would want to act on it. I don't know if your numbers are correct but it seems important to me to point out that only a fraction of all GNU/Linux Users own a device with a mali GPU. Only a part of that group would in principle support such a campaign. Only some of the willing will actually fund the campaign... Pablo From pablo at parobalth.org Wed May 24 21:48:12 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 22:48:12 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Release of Eoma68-A20 CAD files? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170524204812.GA31122@pabbook> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 01:25:12PM -0400, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > Do you make your pc card a20 cad files public? Please start a new thread (a new email to the list) when starting a "new" topic. There is an answer to your question on the crowdfunding site (https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop): "The only exception to this rule to release everything in advance is the PCB CAD files for the Computer Card. We’re planning to release the PCB CAD files for the Computer card once sufficient units are hit that ensures any third party manufacturing runs will not undermine the project’s development or stability." Pablo From cyrozap at gmail.com Thu May 25 01:33:22 2017 From: cyrozap at gmail.com (Forest Crossman) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 19:33:22 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] On (potentially not) 3D printing laptop case parts Message-ID: Hi, all, The recent update on Crowd Supply (regarding the difficulty in mass-producing parts with 3D printers) reminded me of some RepRap/RepStrap innovations from a few years back: - https://web.archive.org/web/20150318000301/http://justindunh am.net/making-cast-resin-3d-printer-parts/ - http://reprap.org/wiki/Clonedel - http://reprap.org/wiki/Moldmaking_Tutorial This was before cheap, mass-produced 3D printers became widely available, so many people were bootstrapping their RepRaps by purchasing 3D-printed parts from others. At some point, someone realized that it was a lot faster to 3D print a set of parts, make molds from them, and then use those molds to make additional part sets, than it was to separately print each set of parts. I'm not sure how complicated the parts of the laptop case are, but if the parts could be re-designed to be optimized for resin casting, it might cut down on the production time. Of course, I've never done any resin casting before so I don't know how feasible this would be in practice. Also, I have no idea how fast modern 3D printers can run now, so the speed advantage might not even exist any more. Anyways, I just though I'd mention this on the off chance it might help speed things along. Keep up the good work! -- Forest Crossman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 25 01:50:40 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 01:50:40 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] On (potentially not) 3D printing laptop case parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Forest Crossman wrote: > Hi, all, > > The recent update on Crowd Supply (regarding the difficulty in > mass-producing parts with 3D printers) reminded me of some RepRap/RepStrap > innovations from a few years back: oo interesting > https://web.archive.org/web/20150318000301/http://justindunham.net/making-cast-resin-3d-printer-parts/ hmm, currently offline (as in *archive.org* is offline!) > http://reprap.org/wiki/Clonedel > http://reprap.org/wiki/Moldmaking_Tutorial ooo niice. very clear. i like it.... except that the resins are listed as not being as strong as ABS (which i've tried and it failed miserable) and not quiiite as stiff as PLA. now, unnnfortunately, the design of the laptop, whilst it is quite light (1kg) really is rather long - 230mm deep and 330mm wide - which means that it's relying on the stiffness of PLA (and the PCBs) for its structural strength. i didn't realise at the time when i said i'd provide a DLP option that resins are not as stiff (and a lot more brittle) than PLA, so that one's going to need some thinking about / research, hum... > This was before cheap, mass-produced 3D printers became widely available, so > many people were bootstrapping their RepRaps by purchasing 3D-printed parts > from others. At some point, someone realized that it was a lot faster to 3D > print a set of parts, make molds from them, and then use those molds to make > additional part sets, than it was to separately print each set of parts. > > I'm not sure how complicated the parts of the laptop case are, pretty complicated but also designed to be injection-molded. it *should* be doable... but resins i think might not cut it. > but if the > parts could be re-designed to be optimized for resin casting, it might cut > down on the production time. Of course, I've never done any resin casting > before so I don't know how feasible this would be in practice. Also, I have > no idea how fast modern 3D printers can run now, so the speed advantage > might not even exist any more. well the $150+$40 shipping truly dreadful taobao-knockoff i just finally managed to get up and running after three WEEKS of redesigning its parts, is currently running at an amazing 150mm/sec with only minimal degradation in quality: bulging at sharp-turn (90 and 180 degree) corners. which i am kinda blown away by. but... then again... i _did_ totally replace the entire x-end and carriage mechanism with a horizontal arrangement, put a 50mm triangle in one strategic corner of the frame (only one so far), replace the glass+MK2 printbed PCB with printbite + a MK3 aluminium 3mm plate.... none of which will really dramatically increase the cost so is a positive sign. > Anyways, I just though I'd mention this on the off chance it might help > speed things along. appreciated. do you also have a 3D printer and would you (or anyone else) like to give this a shot, see what happens? i'd be interested to know how much "bend" there is in the back base part and the left end part for example. l. From njansen1 at gmail.com Thu May 25 01:54:11 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 20:54:11 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] On (potentially not) 3D printing laptop case parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:33 PM, Forest Crossman wrote: > I'm not sure how complicated the parts of the laptop case are, but if the parts could be re-designed to be optimized for resin casting, it might cut down on the production time. Of course, I've never done any resin casting before so I don't know how feasible this would be in practice. Also, I have no idea how fast modern 3D printers can run now, so the speed advantage might not even exist any more. I've got a tiny bit of experience here, for what it's worth. For our open source SMT pick and place machines, we used 3D printed molds for mass-producing a particular part on the machine. They were cast in medium to low durometer urethane, but the process is somewhat similar to other types of resins. The main problem we had were that the molds took a while to clean. The material oozed out of the top in a few strategically placed holes. Those would clog constantly and required a lot of labor to clean, however, probably still MUCH less than if the parts were 3d printed. So it was slightly annoying, but less annoying and quicker than 3D printing that particular part. There are prototyping shops in China that can do this in limited runs, with great results. No idea about cost though. The surface finish was actually quite nice. It was basically an inverse of the 3D printed part. It looked 3D printed, but under magnification, you could see that the the ridges were backwards. If the master parts were 3d printed via an SLA process, then those lines would disappear, and the accuracies would be much better. We usually got very small air bubbles on the surface of the part, but it was casted upside down so they were never seen. Probably the main detractor for resin casting in this particular case is going to be how the parts are designed. Unless a part was designed to be cast, it's probably not going to be cast. lkcl has already spoken that he did not want to redesign any of the parts if he could help it. For that reason alone, I'd guess that it's probably off the table. I'm definitely not an expert though, this is not really my area. Just figured I'd share my brief experience. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 25 02:13:15 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 02:13:15 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] On (potentially not) 3D printing laptop case parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 1:54 AM, Neil Jansen wrote: > On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:33 PM, Forest Crossman wrote: > > Probably the main detractor for resin casting in this particular case is > going to be how the parts are designed. Unless a part was designed to be > cast, it's probably not going to be cast. they were designed to be cast, although some of the parts would require a very unusual pair of molds, where assembly and disassembly would need *two* moves (first sideways and **THEN** upwards) to split them apart. the idea was to have a generic "block" into which mold parts with fixed outer dimensions were placed (held together), with mold parts having three sides *MEETING AT ONE SPECIFIC CORNER* and the other mold part having three sides meeting AT THE DIRECT OPPOSITE CORNER instead of the more traditional "top and bottom" mold parts. but the molding isn't the main concern, it's the materials strength. does resin have enough strength and stiffness to not fall apart if it is used to span a distance of 330mm? l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 25 04:12:01 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 04:12:01 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IGQ_8K3tGI this is a quick video of the horribly cheap and cheerful taobao $150 plus $40 shipping 3d printer making a HELL of a racket, successfully PRINTING at 200 mm / sec. acceleration settings have been turned up to... enormous: 4000 mm / sec^2 for X and Y, and 9000 mm / sec^2 for the extruder. in previous tests i was running at 2000 mm / sec^2 and at 120 mm / sec print speeds there was clear signs of "bulging" along the 0.7mm wide screen bezel, where at the last moment the print head would slow down *but extrusion clearly didn't*, and instead of a nice line you get this "teardrop" effect. by putting the acceleration so insanely high that artifact *DISAPPEARS*. now, due to the bone-rattling speed the frame is clearly vibrating around, which results in this "wave" pattern as the printhead goes through this massive 180 reversal, *but*, i am amazed to find that the "wave" pattern stabilises after around 4mm and is not hugely noticeable anyway. it's basically outperforming the mendel90 for quality, yet still matching it for speed. i'm... absolutely astounded. still to consider is putting in some acrylic / MDF / hardboard surrounds that would stiffen up the frame. l. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From bluey at smallfootprint.info Thu May 25 05:46:34 2017 From: bluey at smallfootprint.info (Bluey) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 14:46:34 +1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 25 May 2017, at 1:12 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IGQ_8K3tGI > > this is a quick video of the horribly cheap and cheerful taobao $150 > plus $40 shipping 3d printer making a HELL of a racket, successfully > PRINTING at 200 mm / sec. acceleration settings have been turned up > to... enormous: 4000 mm / sec^2 for X and Y, and 9000 mm / sec^2 for > the extruder. > Very cool! Would adding in a 2nd print head, in order to print two pieces concurrently, be a feasible option? - Bluey From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 25 06:32:44 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 06:32:44 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 5:46 AM, Bluey wrote: > >> On 25 May 2017, at 1:12 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IGQ_8K3tGI >> >> this is a quick video of the horribly cheap and cheerful taobao $150 >> plus $40 shipping 3d printer making a HELL of a racket, successfully >> PRINTING at 200 mm / sec. acceleration settings have been turned up >> to... enormous: 4000 mm / sec^2 for X and Y, and 9000 mm / sec^2 for >> the extruder. >> > > Very cool! very very funny, too > Would adding in a 2nd print head, in order to print two pieces concurrently, be a feasible option? ah. good suggestion.... except it's quite a lot of work (near-total redesign), and the x-rods would need to be up-rated to at least 10mm in order to cope with the increased span. 8mm @ 300mm long is *barely* the acceptable span for steel rods. a 2nd printhead would not only increase weight but also would require a longer span that in turn means going to 10mm rods that in turn means going to LM10UU bearings that in turn means that the printhead would no longer fit into the hole down the centre, in addition to that the printhead would need to be LOWERED because the LM10UU bearings are much wider than LM8UU the increased length and width of LM10UU bearings increasing the size of the carriage would in turn also mean that the carriage would no longer fit between the uprights which in turn means that the uprights would need to be redesigned and also the entire printer widened so it is a completely unanticipated cascade of ongoing consequences meaning that a whopping 50% of the original printer needs to be replaced or redesigned. overall it might actually be quicker - and cheaper - just to get... two unmodified printers. :) l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 25 09:39:46 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 09:39:46 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://hands.com/~lkcl/3dprinters/taobao_clone/taobao_clone.html ok so i documented it as abov. From bluey at smallfootprint.info Thu May 25 13:53:22 2017 From: bluey at smallfootprint.info (Bluey) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 22:53:22 +1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> > On 25 May 2017, at 3:32 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 5:46 AM, Bluey wrote: >> >>> On 25 May 2017, at 1:12 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IGQ_8K3tGI >>> >>> this is a quick video of the horribly cheap and cheerful taobao $150 >>> plus $40 shipping 3d printer making a HELL of a racket, successfully >>> PRINTING at 200 mm / sec. acceleration settings have been turned up >>> to... enormous: 4000 mm / sec^2 for X and Y, and 9000 mm / sec^2 for >>> the extruder. >>> >> >> Very cool! > > very very funny, too > >> Would adding in a 2nd print head, in order to print two pieces concurrently, be a feasible option? > > ah. good suggestion.... except it's quite a lot of work (near-total > redesign), and the x-rods would need to be up-rated to at least 10mm > in order to cope with the increased span. > ... Ah, yeah. I was actually thinking of a bit of a bastardised printer designed just for printing the small pieces. That way, the print heads would only move left–right by the width of the largest small piece and the frame et al. could remain unchanged. (An even more crazy version would be to have four fixed printer heads mounted above a table that can move in the X and Y direction. Obviously the Z-axis mechanism would need to be rated for the higher weight resulting from the extra printer heads.) The long pieces would still be printed on a standard one-head printer. - Bluey P.S. Is there any reason that PLA can’t be used in place of resin in the cast moulds? That way you get the speed of casting with the strength of PLA. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 25 15:30:50 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 15:30:50 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Bluey wrote: > Ah, yeah. I was actually thinking of a bit of a bastardised printer designed just for printing the small pieces. That way, the print heads would only move left–right by the width of the largest small piece and the frame et al. could remain unchanged. (An even more crazy version would be to have four fixed printer heads mounted above a table that can move in the X and Y direction. Obviously the Z-axis mechanism would need to be rated for the higher weight resulting from the extra printer heads.) ohh yeah. huh. btw please do keep line lengths to under around 70-75 characters. see that single ">"? that should be about 6, one for each line. by using a mailer that totally fails to put in proper linebreaks i am FORCED to manually break up what you've written... but today i can't be bothered. > The long pieces would still be printed on a standard one-head printer. i wonder if the steppers could cope with the extra weight? > - Bluey > > P.S. Is there any reason that PLA can’t be used in place of resin in the cast moulds? That way you get the speed of casting with the strength of PLA. i have no idea! very good question! From dumblob at gmail.com Thu May 25 20:26:37 2017 From: dumblob at gmail.com (dumblob) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 21:26:37 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 Router Ethernet Speed In-Reply-To: References: <20170519113238.GB6853@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> <20170519165425.GA14273@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Message-ID: Hi Luke, >funnily enough the PCB with EOMA68 on it will be.... a > Mini-Desktop! i'll just need to use the exact same PCB4 from... the > laptop project! How will this affect e.g. the presence of HDMI? Cheers, -- Jan From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 25 21:32:11 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 21:32:11 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 Router Ethernet Speed In-Reply-To: References: <20170519113238.GB6853@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> <20170519165425.GA14273@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Message-ID: On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 8:26 PM, dumblob wrote: > Hi Luke, > >>funnily enough the PCB with EOMA68 on it will be.... a >> Mini-Desktop! i'll just need to use the exact same PCB4 from... the >> laptop project! > > How will this affect e.g. the presence of HDMI? not at all. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Thu May 25 21:38:56 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 16:38:56 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Pablo Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 22:40:07 +0200 > On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 03:07:45PM -0400, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > > If you reinterpret what I write then tell on what grounds. I think lkcl's reasons for not reverse engineering a mali are right. > It is difficult to follow your argumentation. You write that you agree > and disagree in the next sentence. No, I do not. First I list lkcl's reasons why he thinks reverse engineering is a bad track. I agree on his arguments. Next I say, why I believe it is better doing a reverse engineering. If you do not accept the principle of weighing arguments up against each other then that is your decision. I specifically wrote in an earlier post, that for me the arguments in favor of making a reverse engineering of a mali gpu are stronger than against. > >Weighing them up against the importance of getting a libre software gpu, I reach the conclusion that the reverse engineering should be done. > Before you plan a difficult crowd funding campaign and involve the FSF, please tell us your > counter arguments to Lukes reasoning on a technical and ethical level. I do not have any technical arguments about a reverse engineering. I have no insight about reverse engineering. To my knowledge it is one of the most difficult fields about computers. I asked if a reverse engineering can be done? Lkcl said yes. My political arguments align with those of libre software. Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1AKIl_2GM I think it is important having libre software electronics which are able to match the performance of non libre electronics. We should have at least one libre software mali gpu we can ask people to buy. > For example to the following points I am quoting from Lukes email reply to you in > the thread about "firefly 3399 all source software disclosed?": > - "take one of the "open gpus" or parts of them and use that." > - "the sad fact of reverse-engineering: all that effort, with > *no guarantee of success*.... just to get something that's years > out-of-date." > - "well, with the same money it would be possible to make our > own libre processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D > graphics *without* paying anyone a cent." I have not heard about this option before lkcl wrote it. I have not heard anyone else mention this option. If lkcl's suggestion is practicable, it is another prove of the lack of coordination among libre software people. > > > There have been some remarks about the probability of a successful crowd funding. I mentioned the numbers 50000 people, each paying 5euro. Notice on this email list, people want to pay 5eu, if they get the software in question. > >It is safe to say more than 10 million people have gnulinux on their computer? A major part of them know about the importance of libre software and a part of them would want to act on it. > I don't know if your numbers are correct but it seems important to me to I do not know either. I do not think there are statistical numbers or questionnaires on this matter. My major arguments are, more than 10 million people likely know about libre software. If you asked them one by one, if in the same prize range, do you want to buy libre software electronics over non libre electronics, many would answer yes. Providing libre software electronics would require a very high degree of coordination. Every major gnulinux forum and organization should display the crowd funding at the same time. I have so far not seen a crowd funding about libre software electronics that would display no matter what entity on the internet people would watch. Proven is, on many areas of consumer electronics we cannot buy libre software devices. > point out that only a fraction of all GNU/Linux Users own a device with > a mali GPU. Only a part of that group would in principle support such a > campaign. Only some of the willing will actually fund the campaign... > > Pablo > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu May 25 21:48:05 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 21:48:05 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: folks, it's very interesting to note this discussion as being very (visually) difficult to read, because normally i reply to pretty much every discussion and i take particular care to do inline posting and to cut unnecessary context (as is being done here)... but also, from experience, it would seem that i do quite a bit more than that. what i *also* tend to do is to tidy up the sentences adding line-breaks as well as carriage-returns that separate out the paragraphs. this helps the people who reply to be able to not only identify the different people in the conversation but also it helps their mailers to add in the correct level of additional indentation - the ">"s before each line. now, if you *don't* do that, then you end up with an absolute mess: one single ">" per paragraph... but you can't identify it visually because there's *no paragraph breaks*. ron, it is *almost impossible* to identify what you've written, thus making it much harder to understand what you want to say, and thus leading directly to the confusion and lack of clarity that you're experiencing. if you would like your ideas to be easier to understand perhaps you might consider switching to "plain text only" mode in your email client and to re-read any online netiquette rules for email lists once again, paying particular attention to layout and the use of whitespace in replies. l. On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 9:38 PM, wrote: > -------- Original Message -------- >> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 03:07:45PM -0400, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: >> > If you reinterpret what I write then tell on what grounds. I think lkcl's reasons for not reverse engineering a mali are right. >> It is difficult to follow your argumentation. You write that you agree >> and disagree in the next sentence. > No, I do not. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Thu May 25 22:33:02 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 17:33:02 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept a pc card Message-ID: On another forum I asked about the practicability of modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to become pc card compatible. Lkcl rejected my suggestion. He argued, that keyboard, sound, batteri etc would require custom pcbs. Expenses worth thousand of eus. Doing it wrong and the computer could catch fire. I am not going to spend thousand of eus. I will try to modify a computer. I have no expectation, that I will be able to do it. I have come to think that the pc card is a raspberry pi. If your display is hdmi and other devices are usb, then you have a computer. On youtube I found a person who had turned notebook's touchpad into an usb touchpad. I asked him about modifying these notebook devices to usb: speakers -> use an usb soundcard mic -> use an usb soundcard camera -> notebooks camera may be an usb device. Else get an usb camera. touchpad -> many synaptic touchpads are usb compatible. I do not know what to do about the left and right buttons. keyboard -> that will be difficult. battery -> likely difficult. At least if you want to be able to charge and have the computer turned on at the same time. display -> either get a lvds to hdmi converter or get a hdmi display. I do not now if a 7 inch hdmi display requires separate power. It appears the keyboard is the biggest difficulty. On his website one person wrote about modifying a notebook keyboard to an usb keyboard. He wrote it is about getting a controller which will fit the keyboard's wiring. Then it is a matter of mapping the keys correctly. I do not know about powering the keyboard or rather the controller. I bought a 7 inch display asus eee pc 4g. If you get to use the battery cabinet, there ought to be space for the devices. Tell me what you say? From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Thu May 25 22:40:52 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 17:40:52 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Keyboard is easy if you know a little electronics. A laptop keyboard is a matrix keypad. Rows and columns. One key connects one row to one column. Look up a little thing called the "Teensy" -- it is a microcontroller board. You can (if you are *very* good at soldering) connect from the keyboard's PCB connector (cut the PCB and solder to the connector while it's still on there -- no shorts, mind you, or it won't work, and the pin pitch is usually insane...) to a Teensy and make a "custom keyboard" that way. You will of course have to program the Teensy but that's the easy part ;) an Arduino Leonardo clone from eBay (also try to find, if you still can, "Arduino Micro" clones -- NOT the "Pro Micro" ones, they won't have enough pins). Same code will run there and work just fine. Forget the battery, unless you have a reflow toaster oven (or other homemade reflow equipment, or access to the professional gear) -- you will need it for the kinds of chips that let computers talk to batteries, AFAIK. Too much trouble. I am designing, for a competition on Hackaday, a "made from common modules" "laptop" that I'm calling the AnyTop. The goal is that anyone can build it if they can use a screwdriver, knife, and some sort of drill. (The drill is only needed in one place.) It won't have a battery... but it will be a laptop form factor and it will work. Luke, would some discussion of this be on-topic? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 26 01:30:51 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 01:30:51 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi ron please can you read and follow standard netiquette by using line-breaks at around 70 characters per line, or using a mailer that does this automatically for you. the easiest way is to set "plain text mode" when composing or replying to arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk. i am forced to edit the text below to add a line-break every 70 characters and to add the inline reply ">"s manually. it is a lot of work. thanks. On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:33 PM, wrote: > On another forum I asked about the practicability > of modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to become > pc card compatible. why would you make a 7 in notebook PC-CARD (PCMCIA) compatible? are you confusing PC-CARD with EOMA68? > Lkcl rejected my suggestion. i would never have entered into a discussion about converting a netbook to PCMCIA (ake PC-CARD). i _would_ however have highlighted the strong mis-match between spending time on taking *any* pre-existing mass-volume casework and attemtping to shoe-horn PCBs or other components into it when the goal is *eco-conscious* mass-volume computing. the ted talk on "How I made a $3 for $1800" illustrates this futility beautifully: https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toaster_from_scratch/transcript?language=en so if the goal is to convert an entire industry over to responsible eco-conscious computing, starting from the labour-intensive exercise of *disassembling* a pre-existing computer that was never designed *to* be disassembled is not a good way to go. on the other hand, if you simply wish to have a learning experience (with a very sharp learning curve) then yes, go ahead. > He argued, that keyboard, sound, batteri etc would require custom pcbs. correct. > Expenses worth thousand of eus. correct. > Doing it wrong and the computer could catch fire. it would. you also forgot to mention the huge difficulty of sourcing the right connectors. many of the originals (which were likely custom-designed) will simply be .... end-of-life. you also forgot to mention the reverse-engineering needed for any parts/components you intend to re-use. > touchpad -> many synaptic touchpads are usb compatible. > I do not know what to do about the left and right buttons. you will need to reverse-engineer the touchpad buttons. try disassembling the touchpad, looking for ICs then searching for their datasheets online. also you will need a multimeter. > keyboard -> that will be difficult. indeed. i spent several weeks on reverse-engineering one: in the end i had to get a duplicate, smash it open, and then trace the tracks from the connector, by hand. that alone took about two hours. > battery -> likely difficult. yes. and dangerous to get wrong. > At least if you want to be able to charge and have > the computer turned on at the same time. no... just dangerous, period. get things wrong with a lithium battery and, well, you can google "lithium battery fire" just as easily as anyone. > display -> either get a lvds to hdmi converter or get a hdmi display. if you are looking to replace the existing LCD you will need to know the exact dimensions of the existing LCD. get them wrong and you will be looking at modifying the casework. > I do not now if a 7 inch hdmi display requires separate power. all displays will require power. you will need to know - in advance - the current and voltage. then organise the PCB to provide that. > It appears the keyboard is the biggest difficulty. no.... it's just one of the dozens of big difficulties. designing a laptop from scratch didn't take 18 months to create a first prototype, for no good reason. > On his website one person wrote about modifying a > notebook keyboard to an usb keyboard. > He wrote it is about getting a controller which will fit > the keyboard's wiring. yep. sounds like he knew what he was doing. > Then it is a matter of mapping the keys correctly. ... which you will have to reverse-engineer. > I do not know about powering the keyboard or rather the controller. well, you look up the datasheet on the controller and it will tell you. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 26 01:34:58 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 01:34:58 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:40 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Keyboard is easy if you know a little electronics. A laptop keyboard is a > matrix keypad. Rows and columns. One key connects one row to one column. i found quite a lot of tutorials online about this. and still had to destroy a perfectly good keyboard in order to reverse-engineer the row/column matrix. > I am designing, for a competition on Hackaday, a "made from common modules" > "laptop" that I'm calling the AnyTop. The goal is that anyone can build it > if they can use a screwdriver, knife, and some sort of drill. (The drill is > only needed in one place.) It won't have a battery... but it will be a > laptop form factor and it will work. Luke, would some discussion of this be > on-topic? sounds great. i'd particularly be interested to hear how much time and effort it takes any one person to follow the resultant instructions, and how much they have to spend to do it. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 26 01:57:34 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 01:57:34 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list settings Message-ID: as an experiment i'm setting "content filtering", particularly the option to convert text/html parts to plain text, but it also strips multipart/alternativee and a few other things. the general idea is to make it easier to interact on complex multi-reply topics by enforcing text-only. replying to text-only should, by default in most mailers, result in the familiar ">"s for every single line, as per standard netiquette guidelines. i will test this shortly. test line test line test line test line test line test linetest line test linetest line test linetest line test linetest line test linetest line test linetest line test line test line test line test line test line test line test linetest line test linetest line test linetest line test linetest line test linetest line test linetest line test line From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri May 26 02:00:07 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 21:00:07 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Regarding the keyboard... here's the secret. Get hook probes for your multimeter. The little springloaded ones. (Google Image search if you don't know.) That reduces it to a non-invasive half-hour process (or thereabouts)... that's what it took me with an Adesso ACK-595 USB compact keyboard. Hook to one row, one column, with your multimeter set to continuity. (This may or may not be a challenge to identify.) Press a key. If you get a match, move to the next column and the next key. Proceed systematically. As for the AnyTop. Body is a standard three-ring binder with the ring module removed (that's what the drill is needed for -- #(^&$#@!! rivets). Display is a Chinese clone of the WaveShare 7" 1024x600 "Type C" HDMI touch display, ignoring the touch input. Keyboard and mouse are cheap compact wired USB models. There is a four-port bus-powered USB hub (system unit has only two ports... ew) that's an IOGEAR model I'm personally familiar with, it's a gem from them. (I'd prefer a self-powered hub, but those get too expensive too fast.) System unit is a WinTel CX-W8 or similar... Atom Z3735F CPU, 2gb RAM, 32gb eMMC SSD... you know, the usual for set-top style and "cloud stick" style cheap-piece-of-crap Chinese computers on eBay. Power supply is a 5v 6a brick. No battery. There is a piece of cut-out cardboard to prop the lid portion of the binder up. Everything goes together with 3M double stick foam tape (or a compatible third-party substitute) except the power supply leads -- which go together with wire nuts. The knife is needed to cut/strip wires and to make a hole for the HDMI and power cables to go through to the system unit. The screwdriver is needed either (a) if the binder's ring thing for once does not use rivets, or (b) if the LCD is ordered with a case (which is an option, not a necessity). Once the parts are all present and accounted for, it should go together in far less than an afternoon. Figure about a couple hours for a complete novice who is all thumbs. I'm debating including a MicroSD card with each set of instructions (this is not, and will not be, a kit) that contains a customized, installable Linux Mint image that will run on these computers... standard Mint generally does not have working WiFi, Bluetooth, or audio. Of course, maintaining my own semi-fork of Mint is not something I find a particularly scintillating prospect, so that may or may not actually happen, even though the other choice is sticking people with Win10, or letting them do the work of installing their own Linux and hunting up drivers and coaxing the system into working properly. On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 8:34 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 10:40 PM, Christopher Havel > wrote: > > Keyboard is easy if you know a little electronics. A laptop keyboard is a > > matrix keypad. Rows and columns. One key connects one row to one column. > > i found quite a lot of tutorials online about this. and still had to > destroy a > perfectly good keyboard in order to reverse-engineer the row/column > matrix. > > > I am designing, for a competition on Hackaday, a "made from common > modules" > > "laptop" that I'm calling the AnyTop. The goal is that anyone can build > it > > if they can use a screwdriver, knife, and some sort of drill. (The drill > is > > only needed in one place.) It won't have a battery... but it will be a > > laptop form factor and it will work. Luke, would some discussion of this > be > > on-topic? > > sounds great. i'd particularly be interested to hear how much time and > effort it takes any one person to follow the resultant instructions, and > how much they have to spend to do it. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 26 02:01:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 02:01:07 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list settings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 1:57 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > test line test line test line test line test line test linetest line > test linetest line test linetest line test linetest line test linetest > line test linetest line test line line-breaks seem to be added successfully, where they weren't in e.g. this: http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2017-May/013879.html testing reply. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 26 02:06:11 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 02:06:11 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 2:00 AM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Regarding the keyboard... here's the secret. Get hook probes for your > multimeter. The little springloaded ones. (Google Image search if you don't > know.) That reduces it to a non-invasive half-hour process (or > thereabouts)... that's what it took me with an Adesso ACK-595 USB compact > keyboard. > > Hook to one row, one column, with your multimeter set to continuity. (This > may or may not be a challenge to identify.) Press a key. If you get a > match, move to the next column and the next key. Proceed systematically. yep.... that's what i did. four hours later i had destroyed the connector because the graphite had come off. what partial information that did have was of no use. destroying a keyboard and examining the flexible PCB was what did it: i found that the layout was ROW1 ROW2 COL1 ROW3 COL2 ROW4 ROW5 COL3 nothing that was even remotely sensible! > As for the AnyTop. Body is a standard three-ring binder with the ring > module removed (that's what the drill is needed for -- #(^&$#@!! rivets). > Display is a Chinese clone of the WaveShare 7" 1024x600 "Type C" HDMI touch > display, ignoring the touch input. Keyboard and mouse are cheap compact > wired USB models. There is a four-port bus-powered USB hub (system unit has > only two ports... ew) that's an IOGEAR model I'm personally familiar with, > it's a gem from them. (I'd prefer a self-powered hub, but those get too > expensive too fast.) System unit is a WinTel CX-W8 or similar... Atom > Z3735F CPU, 2gb RAM, 32gb eMMC SSD.. so not a shabby amount of processing, then. not bad. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri May 26 02:20:05 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 21:20:05 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd say a keyboard that's that awful inside isn't worth the effort to reverse-engineer... the Adesso one (also sold as a SolidTek) had separate connectors for rows and columns, as typically do the super cheap (and sometimes, but not always, awful) eBay ones such as I'm using in the AnyTop. For the record, the AnyTop has the same specs as the cheapest laptop at my local Wal*Mart... which is a $219.xx HP job that honestly looks like it should say Tonka* on it somewhere. Cheap bright-blue and white plastic... it's horrendous, and it really does literally look like a kid's toy the way it's put together. *For those not in the know... Tonka is/was a popular line of toy trucks for little kids, along the lines of Hot Wheels / Matchbox / etc. Not remote control or electronic at all -- just little push-around cheap plastic toys. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 26 02:30:06 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 02:30:06 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept a pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 2:20 AM, Christopher Havel wrote: > I'd say a keyboard that's that awful inside isn't worth the effort to > reverse-engineer... the Adesso one (also sold as a SolidTek) had separate > connectors for rows and columns, that would have been a hell of a lot easier... but you don't necessarily get to choose that in advance. i picked the chicony semi-arbitrarily > For the record, the AnyTop has the same specs as the cheapest laptop at my > local Wal*Mart... which is a $219.xx HP job that honestly looks like it > should say Tonka* on it somewhere. Cheap bright-blue and white plastic... > it's horrendous, and it really does literally look like a kid's toy the way > it's put together. :) From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 26 03:25:40 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 03:25:40 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/6de5sv/looking_for_ways_to_maximise_the_mm_sec_metric/ ok so i asked on reddit, let's see if anyone pitches in... From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Fri May 26 17:16:13 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 12:16:13 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 21:48:05 +0100 > folks, it's very interesting to note this discussion as being very (visually) > difficult to read, because normally i reply to pretty much every discussion > and i take particular care to do inline posting and to cut unnecessary > context (as is being done here)... but also, from experience, > it would seem that i do quite a bit more than that. > > what i *also* tend to do is to tidy up the sentences adding line-breaks > as well as carriage-returns that separate out the paragraphs. this I will shorten lines. > helps the people who reply to be able to not only identify the different > people in the conversation but also it helps their mailers to add in > the correct level of additional indentation - the ">"s before each > line. > > now, if you *don't* do that, then you end up with an absolute mess: > one single ">" per paragraph... but you can't identify it visually > because there's *no paragraph breaks*. > > ron, it is *almost impossible* to identify what you've written, thus making > it much harder to understand what you want to say, and thus leading > directly to the confusion and lack of clarity that you're experiencing. > > if you would like your ideas to be easier to understand perhaps you > might consider switching to "plain text only" mode in your email client I always write in plain text. If I do not, it is a mistake. > and to re-read any online netiquette rules for email lists once again, paying > particular attention to layout and the use of whitespace in replies. > > l. > > On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 9:38 PM, wrote: > > > -------- Original Message -------- > >> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 03:07:45PM -0400, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > >> > If you reinterpret what I write then tell on what grounds. I think lkcl's reasons for not reverse engineering a mali are right. > >> It is difficult to follow your argumentation. You write that you agree > >> and disagree in the next sentence. > > No, I do not. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Fri May 26 17:19:56 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 12:19:56 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] taobao Message-ID: Is taobao a chinese ebay? Does taobao ship to europe? English version of taobao? Thank you. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri May 26 17:21:57 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 12:21:57 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] taobao In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://hackaday.com/2017/03/28/source-parts-on-taobao-an-insiders-guide/ I'd personally call that an 'intro', rather than a 'guide'... Hackaday tends towards clickbait headlines. But I've never bought on TaoBao, so I'll shut up :) From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Fri May 26 17:27:12 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 12:27:12 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept apc card Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Christopher Havel Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept apc card Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 17:40:52 -0400 > Keyboard is easy if you know a little electronics. A laptop keyboard is a matrix keypad. Rows and columns. One key connects one row to one column. > > Look up a little thing called the "Teensy" -- it is a microcontroller board. You can (if you are very good at soldering) connect from the keyboard's PCB connector (cut the Can the teensy make the key mapping correct and the key mapping will be correct when arriving at the computer's usb port? PCB and solder to the connector while it's still on there -- no shorts, mind you, or it won't work, and the pin pitch is usually insane...) to a Teensy and make a "custom keyboard" that way. You will of course have to program the Teensy but that's the easy part ;) an Arduino Leonardo clone from eBay (also try to find, if you still can, Can you use a raspberry pi 0 to program a teensy? "Arduino Micro" clones -- NOT the "Pro Micro" ones, they won't have enough pins). Same code will run there and work just fine. > > Forget the battery, unless you have a reflow toaster oven (or other homemade reflow equipment, or access to the professional gear) -- you will need it for the kinds of chips that let computers talk to batteries, AFAIK. Too much trouble. > > I am designing, for a competition on Hackaday, a "made from common modules" "laptop" that I'm calling the AnyTop. The goal is that anyone can build it if they can use a screwdriver, knife, and some sort of drill. (The drill is only needed in one place.) It won't have a battery... but it will be a laptop form factor and it will work. Luke, would some discussion of this be on-topic? > From lasich at gmail.com Fri May 26 17:31:13 2017 From: lasich at gmail.com (Hrvoje Lasic) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 18:31:13 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] taobao In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26 May 2017 at 18:19, wrote: > Is taobao a chinese ebay? > I dont know if you can call it Chinese Ebay but it is huge market place. > Does taobao ship to europe? > you can order through Taobao Agents like www.bhiner.com (and many others), they will pack order for you, combine if needed and send to Europe (for a small transaction fee plus you will pay shipment) > English version of taobao? > no, but you can translate page through i.e. Bhiner that is not so bad (they do poor job if offers are written in pictures) > Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri May 26 17:34:18 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 12:34:18 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept apc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You use the Arduino IDE to program Teensies, IIRC. They might also have their own. Code is uploaded directly to a USB port on the Teensy. Have a look around --> https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/ You *probably* need a Teensy++ 2.0. That is not a guarantee, just a recommendation. I have not myself played around with Teensies, they're expensive (relative to Arduino Nano/Micro clones on eBay, and to my typical budget) and I tend to think in hardware terms far better than anything software/firmware. I can't really help you beyond what I've just written. The computer doesn't 'see' keymapping. The computer sees a string of information that tells it what key was depressed and released and when. "Keymap" is where the key is in the matrix, which the computer doesn't care about. The computer cares that you pressed the ESC key and released it x number of microseconds later, not that it's row 1, column 1 in the matrix. You should look up the USB HID protocol and the PS/2 keyboard protocol. Those will tell you a lot of how the computer 'sees' and 'talks to' a keyboard... and how the keyboard 'talks' back. On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 12:27 PM, wrote: > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Christopher Havel > Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk > To: Eco-Conscious Computing > Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept > apc card > Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 17:40:52 -0400 > > > > Keyboard is easy if you know a little electronics. A laptop keyboard is > a matrix keypad. Rows and columns. One key connects one row to one column. > > > > Look up a little thing called the "Teensy" -- it is a microcontroller > board. You can (if you are very good at soldering) connect from the > keyboard's PCB connector (cut the > > > Can the teensy make the key mapping correct and the key mapping will be > correct when arriving at the computer's usb port? > > PCB and solder to the connector while it's still on there -- no shorts, > mind you, or it won't work, and the pin pitch is usually insane...) to a > Teensy and make a "custom keyboard" that way. You will of course have to > program the Teensy but that's the easy part ;) an Arduino Leonardo clone > from eBay (also try to find, if you still can, > > > Can you use a raspberry pi 0 to program a teensy? > > > "Arduino Micro" clones -- NOT the "Pro Micro" ones, they won't have enough > pins). Same code will run there and work just fine. > > > > Forget the battery, unless you have a reflow toaster oven (or other > homemade reflow equipment, or access to the professional gear) -- you will > need it for the kinds of chips that let computers talk to batteries, AFAIK. > Too much trouble. > > > > I am designing, for a competition on Hackaday, a "made from common > modules" "laptop" that I'm calling the AnyTop. The goal is that anyone can > build it if they can use a screwdriver, knife, and some sort of drill. (The > drill is only needed in one place.) It won't have a battery... but it will > be a laptop form factor and it will work. Luke, would some discussion of > this be on-topic? > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Fri May 26 18:02:46 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 13:02:46 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? Message-ID: I have searched the best I can for a seller of a small usb keyboard. Width about 15cm. Keyboard may include a touchpad. I cannot find a seller. I have asked on forums. No answers. http://usb.brando.com/prod_detail.php?prod_id=00666 Seller says, he has stopped selling the keyboard and he does not know where a keyboard of this size is being sold. Do you know if I can buy a keyboard of this size? Thank you. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri May 26 18:04:27 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 13:04:27 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: eBay has a bunch but they're all cheap nasty Chinese Bluetooth jobs. From ckeen at pestilenz.org Fri May 26 20:38:51 2017 From: ckeen at pestilenz.org (Christian Kellermann) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 21:38:51 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> * Christopher Havel [170526 18:34]: > You use the Arduino IDE to program Teensies, IIRC. They might also have > their own. Code is uploaded directly to a USB port on the Teensy. Have a > look around --> https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/ > > You *probably* need a Teensy++ 2.0. That is not a guarantee, just a > recommendation. I have not myself played around with Teensies, they're > expensive (relative to Arduino Nano/Micro clones on eBay, and to my typical > budget) and I tend to think in hardware terms far better than anything > software/firmware. I can't really help you beyond what I've just written. > > The computer doesn't 'see' keymapping. The computer sees a string of > information that tells it what key was depressed and released and when. > "Keymap" is where the key is in the matrix, which the computer doesn't care > about. The computer cares that you pressed the ESC key and released it x > number of microseconds later, not that it's row 1, column 1 in the matrix. > > You should look up the USB HID protocol and the PS/2 keyboard protocol. > Those will tell you a lot of how the computer 'sees' and 'talks to' a > keyboard... and how the keyboard 'talks' back. FWIW there are several keyboard firmware projects out there baset on Atmega32U4s (The Teensy/ Arduino Pro Micro) and others like the Teensy++. Check out QMK for example: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware Especially the hand wiring guide in the docs directory. I have built several keyboards with both arduino clones and teensy boards. Works like a charm. Kind regards, Christian -- May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from suffering, and may you live with ease. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri May 26 20:46:17 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 15:46:17 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> References: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: Quick note... the Pro Micro is a new revision of the older Arduino Micro and has fewer IO pins, IIRC. It may not have enough pins for these purposes... OF COURSE Chinese eBay factories/sellers jumped on the new one. You can still buy the older ones if you fiddle with keywords well enough (or sort through fifteen million pages of crap) but be prepared to pay a wee bit more than you used to be able to get away with... ~$10 instead of about half that IIRC. From ckeen at pestilenz.org Fri May 26 20:54:48 2017 From: ckeen at pestilenz.org (Christian Kellermann) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 21:54:48 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: <20170526195448.GE48211@pestilenz.org> * Christopher Havel [170526 21:47]: > Quick note... the Pro Micro is a new revision of the older Arduino Micro > and has fewer IO pins, IIRC. It may not have enough pins for these > purposes... > Yes the naming is weird, you need to watch out for the ones actually carrying an Atmega32U4. As for the number of pins this depends on the size of keyboard you want to make. The arduino is fine for 60% Keyboards. For bigger boards you'd either need a GPIO expander or another controller board. Code for both is available, most people go with the Teensy++. Also as a personal preference I'd take mini usb plugs over micro plugs any day. The latter aren't soldered *through* the board anymore but sit on pads and the physics of that plug makes it likely to damage the plug while fiddling with the cable. > OF COURSE Chinese eBay factories/sellers jumped on the new one. You can > still buy the older ones if you fiddle with keywords well enough (or sort > through fifteen million pages of crap) but be prepared to pay a wee bit > more than you used to be able to get away with... ~$10 instead of about > half that IIRC. The pro micros suitable for said keyboards are around 3 USD... -- May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from suffering, and may you live with ease. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri May 26 21:03:01 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 16:03:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: <20170526195448.GE48211@pestilenz.org> References: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> <20170526195448.GE48211@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: I'm not familiar with percentages being used to describe keyboards. Can you explain? Also, the price I had quoted was for an original Micro, not a Pro Micro, as context should have made clear. For the record -- $10.49 for quantity one, from China, probably not ePacket shipping, although I didn't check that part. Sorry for the terse reply, I'm on my phone at the moment. From ckeen at pestilenz.org Fri May 26 21:08:28 2017 From: ckeen at pestilenz.org (Christian Kellermann) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 22:08:28 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> <20170526195448.GE48211@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: <20170526200828.GF48211@pestilenz.org> * Christopher Havel [170526 22:03]: > I'm not familiar with percentages being used to describe keyboards. Can you > explain? A full fledged keyboard usually features 104 keys, featuring a number pad, arrow keys and function key row. Those are your 100%. Keyboards that take away keys are described in a fraction of those 104 keys. I am typing this on a 40% atreus keyboard that has 42 keys only. As you see the percentage is not that accurate :) > Also, the price I had quoted was for an original Micro, not a Pro Micro, as > context should have made clear. For the record -- $10.49 for quantity one, > from China, probably not ePacket shipping, although I didn't check that > part. Ah ok, I am always getting confused about the naming. Some sellers even sell a pro micro that features the ordinary Atmega328p... Which is not what you want since then you need to do the usb stack in software in your application... Kind regards! Christian -- May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from suffering, and may you live with ease. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri May 26 21:16:55 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 16:16:55 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: <20170526200828.GF48211@pestilenz.org> References: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> <20170526195448.GE48211@pestilenz.org> <20170526200828.GF48211@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: The '328 ones are Pro Minis, although eBay does tend to make a mess of the labeling... both Pro Mini and Pro Micro designs are originally SparkFun Electronics in-house designs. Great company, but I wish they hadn't done those. I like the Arduino Nano (328) and original Micro (32u4) far better than the Pro versions. You may have noticed! ;) As an aside, the Micro and Pro Micro are really just shrink-ray'd Leonardo boards. Whoo. From ckeen at pestilenz.org Fri May 26 21:19:47 2017 From: ckeen at pestilenz.org (Christian Kellermann) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 22:19:47 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> <20170526195448.GE48211@pestilenz.org> <20170526200828.GF48211@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: <20170526201947.GG48211@pestilenz.org> * Christopher Havel [170526 22:17]: > The '328 ones are Pro Minis, although eBay does tend to make a mess of the > labeling... both Pro Mini and Pro Micro designs are originally SparkFun > Electronics in-house designs. Great company, but I wish they hadn't done > those. I like the Arduino Nano (328) and original Micro (32u4) far better > than the Pro versions. You may have noticed! ;) > > As an aside, the Micro and Pro Micro are really just shrink-ray'd Leonardo > boards. Whoo. Thanks for that clarification! Let's resume the usual 3D printing / laptop / EOMA discussion :) -- May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from suffering, and may you live with ease. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Fri May 26 21:29:42 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 16:29:42 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: <20170526201947.GG48211@pestilenz.org> References: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> <20170526195448.GE48211@pestilenz.org> <20170526200828.GF48211@pestilenz.org> <20170526201947.GG48211@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: One more thing first. You concretely cannot do USB HID stuff on a '328-based board. You'd have to flash the serial-to-USB chip with a different USBID (high level stuff, that) which would necessarily then cause it to stop ID'ing as an Arduino... see, the USB comms on those boards is handled by that separate chip... the '328 can't USB on its own, so it sends and receives TTL serial from a second (translator/bridge) chip. There's a software thing called VUSB that can sort of get around that in a nasty way, but it's really ugly last I heard, and therefore not quite suitable for this. For the record, the eBay clones almost universally feature a CH340G from Jiangsu Qinheng Co (aka WCH) as their serial-to-USB translator. More official Arduinos usually use FTDI-branded chips or (in some cases) a second ATMega, an 8u2 or 16u2. Only the Leonardo and compatible (32u4-based) Arduinos can be used for USB HID gear, because they neither need nor have that second translator chip -- it's direct microcontroller-to-USB, because the 32u4 has an on-die USB controller. On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Christian Kellermann wrote: > * Christopher Havel [170526 22:17]: > > The '328 ones are Pro Minis, although eBay does tend to make a mess of > the > > labeling... both Pro Mini and Pro Micro designs are originally SparkFun > > Electronics in-house designs. Great company, but I wish they hadn't done > > those. I like the Arduino Nano (328) and original Micro (32u4) far better > > than the Pro versions. You may have noticed! ;) > > > > As an aside, the Micro and Pro Micro are really just shrink-ray'd > Leonardo > > boards. Whoo. > > Thanks for that clarification! > > Let's resume the usual 3D printing / laptop / EOMA discussion :) > > -- > May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from > suffering, and may you live with ease. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 26 21:41:32 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 21:41:32 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 5:16 PM, wrote: >> what i *also* tend to do is to tidy up the sentences adding line-breaks >> as well as carriage-returns that separate out the paragraphs. this > > I will shorten lines. thx ron that's perfect. >> if you would like your ideas to be easier to understand perhaps you >> might consider switching to "plain text only" mode in your email client > > I always write in plain text. If I do not, it is a mistake. you're writing in plaintext... but your mailer is definitely selecting "rich text" (i.e. HTML) to do it. if you haven't changed anything in your mailer, the action i took to have mailman always do a conversion from HTML to plaintext is doing its job perfectly, so you don't have to do anything. yay for mailman. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri May 26 21:54:10 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 21:54:10 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> References: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Christian Kellermann wrote: > FWIW there are several keyboard firmware projects out there baset > on Atmega32U4s (The Teensy/ Arduino Pro Micro) and others like the > Teensy++. Check out QMK for example: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware there's also one for the libre laptop project, funnily enough :) http://git.rhombus-tech.net/?p=eoma-firmware.git;a=summary l. From ckeen at pestilenz.org Fri May 26 22:17:00 2017 From: ckeen at pestilenz.org (Christian Kellermann) Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 23:17:00 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: <20170526211700.GH48211@pestilenz.org> * Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton [170526 22:54]: > http://git.rhombus-tech.net/?p=eoma-firmware.git;a=summary Looking through the git repo I have seen that in the flying-squirrel directory's README the http://code.google.com/p/stm32sprog/ is mentioned. Maybe that should be mirrored to a safer place? -- May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from suffering, and may you live with ease. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 27 02:47:04 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 02:47:04 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: <20170526211700.GH48211@pestilenz.org> References: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> <20170526211700.GH48211@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 10:17 PM, Christian Kellermann wrote: > Looking through the git repo I have seen that in the flying-squirrel > directory's README the http://code.google.com/p/stm32sprog/ is > mentioned. Maybe that should be mirrored to a safer place? quick google search, looks like lots of people already have From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat May 27 17:54:08 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 12:54:08 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? Message-ID: My post was inaccurate phrased. I should have written a wired usb keyboard, touchpad may be attached, having a width about 15cm. -------- Original Message -------- From: Christopher Havel Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 13:04:27 -0400 > eBay has a bunch but they're all cheap nasty Chinese Bluetooth jobs. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat May 27 17:58:36 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 12:58:36 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Christopher Havel Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 13:04:27 -0400 > eBay has a bunch but they're all cheap nasty Chinese Bluetooth jobs. I should have written a wired usb keyboard, touchpad may be attached, having a width about 15cm. The bluetooth keyboards do not have the option of wired usb? > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat May 27 18:08:04 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 13:08:04 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] why are notebook devices not usb? Message-ID: I have gotten to learn that about notebooks, devices like sound, keyboard, touchpad and camera are often proprietary. Why are they not usb devices? Is it because the manufacturer will not risk that others can provide spare parts or make a copy of his computer? From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sat May 27 18:10:26 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 13:10:26 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Bluetooth keyboards are Bluetooth only. Wired USB keyboard, that size? Never seen one. Would love to have one myself; I've wanted to homebrew a waist-pack PC with wrist keyboard and "google glass" style screen, since approximately a half hour after the dawn of time. I've even got a viewfinder CRT out of an old camcorder that I could use as the display if I hooked it up right. Trouble is I don't trust BT to not interfere with everyone else and screw me up too... that, and I'd need to make it work with a battery. Now that I think about it... I think I've seen one such keyboard literally once ever, either by luck on eBay or on some other website. Don't remember since it was at least five years ago. The thing commanded a princely sum, too... like $150. It occurs to me as well that you might be able to get an industrial/commercial duty wrist PC off eBay (be prepared to pay multiple hundreds of dollars) and doof around with its built-in keyboard... or do something with part of a cell phone and a Teensy... but that's real jerry-rigging at best. There are also keyboards floating around for old IPAQ PDAs that may be useful somehow... but you'd have to reverse-engineer them and they look like they'd be horrible to use to begin with, you don't even get most PC function keys (TAB, CTRL, ALT, etc). Good luck, and let me know if you find one... From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sat May 27 18:16:33 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 13:16:33 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] why are notebook devices not usb? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Money. It's cheaper to do it that way... touchpads are generally PS/2, keyboards may or may not be USB (probably also PS/2, actually) -- but the doozy with them is that the controller chip is on the mainboard to eliminate yet another PCB that isn't really necessary anyways. I believe cameras generally ARE USB, but not with any connector you'd find familiar. Sound is generally integrated into the chipset, and emulates a PCI or USB device. Sometimes there are external codec chips... it's not common except on systems with chipsets so awful that sound just isn't included. Thin clients, for example. There's also the form factor to consider -- to an extent, there are no standards for laptop gadgetry because there's no way to do that. Different laptop sizes and shapes require differently-sized and -shaped crap inside. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat May 27 18:56:18 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 18:56:18 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] why are notebook devices not usb? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Money. It's cheaper to do it that way.. yyep. this s pretty much.. errr... on the money > There's also the form factor to consider -- to an extent, there are no > standards for laptop gadgetry because there's no way to do that. Different > laptop sizes and shapes require differently-sized and -shaped crap inside. ... all completely optimised and customised based around what they can get hold of, or what the reference design from intel is (which will have specific power requirements and thermal requirements)...then there is the constant demand for "thin-ness" which, as chris says, means that a CUSTOM CONNECTOR gets ordered and made... and you can't get hold of them. ron i wrote a long time ago when developing the tablet, about using a single embedded controller which only costs $1, instead of putting in a $1 USB hub, a $1.50 USB camera, a $1 USB audio IC and so on. it all adds up and the margins are so insanely low on laptops - ten percent FOR THE ENTIRE CHAIN right from factory to sales - that they just cannot justify the extra cost. l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Sat May 27 19:15:07 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 21:15:07 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> <20170526195448.GE48211@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > I'm not familiar with percentages being used to describe keyboards. Can you > explain? > 100%= full 104 keyboard TenKeyLess(TKL)= the full 104 without the numpad 60%= TKL without the modifiers on the right side and the arrow keys. Modifiers will be used by hitting other combos etc. 40% Even smaller. No idea how people type on these. Additionally there are other even more weird keyboard like the minivan, the ergodox or the Plank if you are really into them. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sat May 27 19:35:12 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 14:35:12 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Building your own keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <20170526193851.GD48211@pestilenz.org> <20170526195448.GE48211@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: I *think* the ones I prefer are therefore TKL in that nomenclature... I usually just call them "mini" or "compact". The ones that advertise as having an "embedded numpad" which I never ever use or need. See --> Adesso or SolidTek ACK-595, pretty much my ideal keyboard. PgUp/PgDn/Home/End on the right edge, up against the cursor (arrow) keys, with the rest of the usual modifiers (etc) in weird places because that's where they fit. The one in front of me right now (part of a homemade laptop that is the inspiration for my previously-and-briefly-mentioned AnyTop project) has only one Ctrl key, the tilde is between left Alt and spacebar, Ins and Del are between the context menu key and the cursor keys. PrtSc, Scroll Lock (what does that even do?) and Pause are up in the upper-right corner squashed in after NumLock. OFF TOPIC RAMBLING RANT because I'll explode if I don't. I'm writing novels now (yes, plural, one's being edited as I write the sequel... there's a story as to how that all came about) and that homemade laptop is my writing box. Of course I corked it with a kernel update last night (ironically I was trying to get it working *better*), so I've got to torture it back into working somehow... that's not going very well right now... see, the system unit is one of those Z3735F based stick computers (think Intel Compute Stick, but generic... this one's a MeeGoPad T02) and on Mint the sound, WiFi, and BT don't work by default because the chipsets are effin' weird. The cherry on the whipped cream on the cake is that this 64bit system has 32bit UEFI because eff everybody (sorry for implied language, but I'm kinda foaming at the mouth here) so Mint's default installer goes "WTF IS THIS S***?!?!?!" and dies when it tries to install the bootloader. Of course that's not the absolute last thing the installer has to do, so I've got to try and torture it into working or find another OS, which I don't want to do TBH. Mint is freaking *fast*. I think I'm going to just set it aside for now. There's an Australian bloke calls himself Linuxium who's working on a solution... I think I'll let him work this crap out before I go bald. The downside is that he's taking his bloody dang time to get it going, and I've writing to do. Maybe I'll try Ubuntu. I hear it's a little more graceful in how well it installs on this hardware. Besides, I want to look at that new Budgie desktop environment, just to see what it's like and to play around with it. OK I'm done. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 28 03:49:33 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 03:49:33 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:25 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/6de5sv/looking_for_ways_to_maximise_the_mm_sec_metric/ > > ok so i asked on reddit, let's see if anyone pitches in... ... they did! wow! so i updated the post, and did another test part, that was at 175mm/sec on a layer height of 0.15 (nozzle is still 0.4mm) and that came out far better than i expected, too. i'm really excited by how the quality's turning out for such a low investment. i still haven't added a nozzle fan yet! i did however stiffen up the frame somewhat with more wood-working 50mm steel corner triangles. the bracing's not perfect but seems to be having an appreciable improvement. l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Sun May 28 11:24:54 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 13:24:54 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:25 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > > https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/6de5sv/ > looking_for_ways_to_maximise_the_mm_sec_metric/ > > > > ok so i asked on reddit, let's see if anyone pitches in... > > ... they did! wow! It's a subreddit with 120k subscribers. There will be someone responding. Reddit is a trove of information, you should use it more often. The guy that you had a call with, found you via the eoma68 subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/EOMA68/comments/6bp9an/crowd_supply_update_existential_3d_printing/dhox5yb/ > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun May 28 12:03:38 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 12:03:38 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 11:24 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > It's a subreddit with 120k subscribers. There will be someone responding. > Reddit is a trove of information, you should use it more often. i would have if i'd known! reddit appears to be very cooool :) and i love the mythbusters episode, especially. l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Sun May 28 21:54:44 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 23:54:44 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > > i would have if i'd known! reddit appears to be very cooool :) > and i love the mythbusters episode, especially. > Reddit is everything: from quality help like what you received on /r/3dprinting to annoying trolls and shitposters to funny stuff, conversations, inspiration and ideas for projects, to endless amounts of porn and completely vile stuff. There is basically a subreddit for everything a human being might think or like, some easy to find some not. I like it a lot myself because subjects are compartmentalized and easy to find what you want( and as long as you are careful not to dox yourself you can stay completely anonymous). When you ask for help on something there is usually a sweet spot on the amount of subscribers the subreddit has before your post gets buried under a ton of others and no one ever sees it. Up to 200k is usually pretty good, too small and there might be no one to help, too big and your post will be lost. For example /r/linuxhardware and /r/suggestalaptop could potentially have been of help when you were looking to buy a new laptop. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From mike.valk at gmail.com Mon May 29 09:54:14 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 10:54:14 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: 2017-05-28 4:49 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:25 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > > https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/6de5sv/ > looking_for_ways_to_maximise_the_mm_sec_metric/ > > > > ok so i asked on reddit, let's see if anyone pitches in... > > ... they did! wow! so i updated the post, and did another test part, > that was at 175mm/sec on a layer height of 0.15 (nozzle is still > 0.4mm) and that came out far better than i expected, too. > > i'm really excited by how the quality's turning out for such a low > investment. i still haven't added a nozzle fan yet! i did however > stiffen up the frame somewhat with more wood-working 50mm steel corner > triangles. the bracing's not perfect but seems to be having an > appreciable improvement. > I might have missed it but: Do you need/want other people running the finalized modification of this printer? This to parallelize and globalize the build of the laptop parts? If so is there list were you can people can sign up? > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 29 11:39:44 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 11:39:44 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 9:54 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > I might have missed it but: Do you need/want other people running the > finalized modification of this printer? that would be nice, it was one of the ideas that occurred to me. > This to parallelize and globalize > the build of the laptop parts? yes. > If so is there list were you can people can sign up? i hadn't thought that far ahead! hmmm, let's add it to the libre laptop page for now: http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/casework/ l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 29 16:11:05 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 16:11:05 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 9:54 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: > >> I might have missed it but: Do you need/want other people running the >> finalized modification of this printer? that and also i would like to do an experimental design as well: http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?177,767087,770804#msg-770804 the idea is to have a double pulley arrangement which will provide balanced forces acting as far apart as possible, but also with a 4x multiplier on the force thanks to the twin pulleys. also i plan to use double rods rather than single because double rods will turn any "twisting" (rotation) of the rods into a side-loading force against the linear rails. the further apart the rods are the more effective the leverage preventing "twisting", but they can't be too far apart else the carriage has to be too big, and also the rods have to be much longer... ... i was thinking of starting with a distance of 70mm between rod centres and seeing how that goes. should mean i can use 300mm rods. l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Mon May 29 18:58:12 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 19:58:12 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: 2017-05-29 17:11 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 9:54 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com > > wrote: > > > >> I might have missed it but: Do you need/want other people running the > >> finalized modification of this printer? > > that and also i would like to do an experimental design as well: > http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?177,767087,770804#msg-770804 > > the idea is to have a double pulley arrangement which will provide > balanced forces acting as far apart as possible, but also with a 4x > multiplier on the force thanks to the twin pulleys. > > also i plan to use double rods rather than single because double rods > will turn any "twisting" (rotation) of the rods into a side-loading > force against the linear rails. the further apart the rods are the > more effective the leverage preventing "twisting", but they can't be > too far apart else the carriage has to be too big, and also the rods > have to be much longer... > > ... i was thinking of starting with a distance of 70mm between rod > centres and seeing how that goes. should mean i can use 300mm rods. > I remembered an post from Hackaday. http://www.doublejumpelectric.com/projects/core_xy/2014-07-15-core_xy/ > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From mike.valk at gmail.com Mon May 29 19:02:56 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 20:02:56 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: 2017-05-29 12:39 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 9:54 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: > > If so is there list were you can people can sign up? > > i hadn't thought that far ahead! hmmm, let's add it to the libre > laptop page for now: > http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/casework/ > > l. > Looks like I've been signed up ;-) From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 29 19:26:47 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 19:26:47 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 7:02 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: >> http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/casework/ >> >> l. >> > Looks like I've been signed up ;-) oh, errr sorry i accidentally-on-purpose forgot to mention that bit.. :) From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon May 29 19:37:56 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 19:37:56 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] $150 taobao knock-off 3d printer doing 200mm/sec In-Reply-To: References: <012F485C-D735-4CF4-B016-B8B868531A58@smallfootprint.info> Message-ID: On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 6:58 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > I remembered an post from Hackaday. > http://www.doublejumpelectric.com/projects/core_xy/2014-07-15-core_xy/ oh wooow _that_ post, yeahh i remember reading that aages ago. learned so much since then. not least, i *really* do not like the non-coplanar aspect of that original experimental corexy design: i've seen so many people be misled into thinking that you can misalign the belts and everything will be hunky-dory. in a corexy design the belts coming off the pulleys at the ends of the moving beam *must* be in-plane and *must* be at exactly right-angles. anything other than that is just f*****g stupid. not only do you end up with non-linear motion but the offset corner idlers (out of plane) means that the belts "ride". the simplest way to achieve good corexy kinematics is to have the X and Y belts stacked one above the other. that also has the advantage that the belt termination points can be in the *middle* of the carriage, which, if you have dual rods (or a single linear rail) results in zero twisting of the carriage, even under high acceleration. in the diagram shown in that post, under high acceleration one end of the belt will become slightly slack whilst the other end is under increased tension: that in turn torques the carriage which in turn places torquing (side-loading) on the rail (or rods). the best carriage arrangement i saw was the fusebox. everything _else_ about the fusebox was questionable but the belt arrangement at least was superb. anyway the double pulley arrangement i am going to try out will have a 4x reduction in the amount of force on the belt (traded for a 4x increase in speed, which i will have to think through the consequences of). l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Mon May 29 21:48:03 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 16:48:03 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Christopher Havel Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 13:10:26 -0400 > The Bluetooth keyboards are Bluetooth only. > > Wired USB keyboard, that size? Never seen one. Would love to have one http://usb.brando.com/prod_detail.php?prod_id=00666 > myself; I've wanted to homebrew a waist-pack PC with wrist keyboard and > "google glass" style screen, since approximately a half hour after the dawn > of time. I've even got a viewfinder CRT out of an old camcorder that I > could use as the display if I hooked it up right. Trouble is I don't trust > BT to not interfere with everyone else and screw me up too... that, and I'd > need to make it work with a battery. > > Now that I think about it... I think I've seen one such keyboard literally > once ever, either by luck on eBay or on some other website. Don't remember > since it was at least five years ago. The thing commanded a princely sum, > too... like $150. > > It occurs to me as well that you might be able to get an > industrial/commercial duty wrist PC off eBay (be prepared to pay multiple > hundreds of dollars) and doof around with its built-in keyboard... or do > something with part of a cell phone and a Teensy... but that's real > jerry-rigging at best. There are also keyboards floating around for old > IPAQ PDAs that may be useful somehow... but you'd have to reverse-engineer > them and they look like they'd be horrible to use to begin with, you don't > even get most PC function keys (TAB, CTRL, ALT, etc). > > Good luck, and let me know if you find one... > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Mon May 29 21:48:09 2017 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 21:48:09 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] ZEOMA Datasheet Hosting Message-ID: <2bcb95d6-6b2a-2e05-6f8b-8ebe0a9284d8@aross.me> My friend that provided me with some hosting space to play with, is clearing up and with that my hosting space is coming to an end. I’ve made a copy of all the files for the zeoma project and will be uploading them to a gitlab group or https://www.archive.org From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Mon May 29 22:02:43 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:02:43 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] why are notebook devices not usb? Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] why are notebook devices not usb? Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 18:56:18 +0100 > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Christopher Havel > wrote: > > > Money. It's cheaper to do it that way.. > > yyep. this s pretty much.. errr... on the money An unforeseen answer. I thought it would be lower priced to make an usb device one time and several notebook manufacturers would buy the device for their notebook. The going for thinner argument sounds relevant. I thought making proprietary devices would make it more difficult and expensive for other manufacturers to make the same devices. Remarkable that it is lower priced for a manufacturer to make a device by themselves. > > > There's also the form factor to consider -- to an extent, there are no > > standards for laptop gadgetry because there's no way to do that. Different > > laptop sizes and shapes require differently-sized and -shaped crap inside. > > ... all completely optimised and customised based around what they > can get hold of, or what the reference design from intel is (which > will have specific power requirements and thermal requirements)...then > there is the constant demand for "thin-ness" which, as chris says, > means that a CUSTOM CONNECTOR gets ordered and made... and you can't > get hold of them. > > ron i wrote a long time ago when developing the tablet, about using a > single embedded controller which only costs $1, instead of putting in > a $1 USB hub, a $1.50 USB camera, a $1 USB audio IC and so on. > > it all adds up and the margins are so insanely low on laptops - ten > percent FOR THE ENTIRE CHAIN right from factory to sales - that they > just cannot justify the extra cost. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Mon May 29 22:04:55 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:04:55 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "This item is discontinued" >.< On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 4:48 PM, wrote: > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Christopher Havel > Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk > To: Eco-Conscious Computing > Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? > Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 13:10:26 -0400 > > > The Bluetooth keyboards are Bluetooth only. > > > > Wired USB keyboard, that size? Never seen one. Would love to have one > > > http://usb.brando.com/prod_detail.php?prod_id=00666 > > > > > myself; I've wanted to homebrew a waist-pack PC with wrist keyboard and > > "google glass" style screen, since approximately a half hour after the > dawn > > of time. I've even got a viewfinder CRT out of an old camcorder that I > > could use as the display if I hooked it up right. Trouble is I don't > trust > > BT to not interfere with everyone else and screw me up too... that, and > I'd > > need to make it work with a battery. > > > > Now that I think about it... I think I've seen one such keyboard > literally > > once ever, either by luck on eBay or on some other website. Don't > remember > > since it was at least five years ago. The thing commanded a princely sum, > > too... like $150. > > > > It occurs to me as well that you might be able to get an > > industrial/commercial duty wrist PC off eBay (be prepared to pay multiple > > hundreds of dollars) and doof around with its built-in keyboard... or do > > something with part of a cell phone and a Teensy... but that's real > > jerry-rigging at best. There are also keyboards floating around for old > > IPAQ PDAs that may be useful somehow... but you'd have to > reverse-engineer > > them and they look like they'd be horrible to use to begin with, you > don't > > even get most PC function keys (TAB, CTRL, ALT, etc). > > > > Good luck, and let me know if you find one... > > _______________________________________________ > > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Mon May 29 22:07:20 2017 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 22:07:20 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] ZEOMA Datasheet Hosting In-Reply-To: <2bcb95d6-6b2a-2e05-6f8b-8ebe0a9284d8@aross.me> References: <2bcb95d6-6b2a-2e05-6f8b-8ebe0a9284d8@aross.me> Message-ID: <8a4bd788-28a4-57c8-ec76-a528a3fbe509@aross.me> ok there uploading, here they are: https://gitlab.com/ZEOMA/Datasheets I used a gitlab group so i can transfer ownership or give admin rights also to zeoma project members. under the zeoma group you can have multiple repos. https://gitlab.com/ZEOMA/ From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Mon May 29 22:26:58 2017 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 22:26:58 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] ZEOMA Datasheet Hosting In-Reply-To: <8a4bd788-28a4-57c8-ec76-a528a3fbe509@aross.me> References: <2bcb95d6-6b2a-2e05-6f8b-8ebe0a9284d8@aross.me> <8a4bd788-28a4-57c8-ec76-a528a3fbe509@aross.me> Message-ID: <43fc66b7-8b92-339f-656f-c383b8f395e2@aross.me> opps arr looks like i forgot other options that would have been better hosts like https://notabug.org umm hmm zeoma team create an account and import? or i can do that for ya? or just put a xz archive on archive.org? From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Mon May 29 23:06:13 2017 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 23:06:13 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] ZEOMA Datasheet Hosting In-Reply-To: <43fc66b7-8b92-339f-656f-c383b8f395e2@aross.me> References: <2bcb95d6-6b2a-2e05-6f8b-8ebe0a9284d8@aross.me> <8a4bd788-28a4-57c8-ec76-a528a3fbe509@aross.me> <43fc66b7-8b92-339f-656f-c383b8f395e2@aross.me> Message-ID: <56c4c4e6-76fb-e7f4-384d-8ab6ff4d806a@aross.me> ok ive created an git notabug account and uploaded the files for the zeoma project here: https://notabug.org/zeoma/Datasheets ive sent gacuest the login details for it. From doark at mail.com Mon May 29 14:42:23 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 09:42:23 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170529094223.4abdd5a5@ulgy_thing> On Thu, 18 May 2017 22:02:03 -0400 Neil Jansen wrote: > > On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 8:42 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > > a couple of things i forgot to mention, one is to emphasise the > > "bang-per-buck" part. [...] > > this kind of design assessment trick i've only ever heard being used > > by people who make beowulf clusters, the word "cluster" being the key > > word. > > Those are fun problems to solve. You're right that there are a lot of > variables, and many different approaches. And if you've got a few > important criteria like cost or time, it's easy enough to weed out the > bad ones. > > Speaking of Beowulf clusters .. Not to go too far off topic, but has > anyone given any thought to a Beowulf cluster of EOMA68's? I only ask > because if Intel and AMD are including so much proprietary crap between > you and the processor, it's only a matter of time before other > alternatives become important. The way I see it, the current Allwinner > based EOMA68's are great for doing what a tablet or netbook can do, but > it's not going to replace my workstation with 16GB of RAM (which I run > out of probably weekly before needing to restart, but that's another > story .. Windows and Chrome, I have no one to blame but myself there). > Anyway, assuming that the Linux kernel could scale to maybe 8-16 of > these little cores, and being that they're all upgradeable, it actually > seems like it could become a neat alternative for workstation usage. I > don't even see where cost would be that prohibitive, as workstations > actually get pretty expensive often surpassing $1000 USD. Are there > any hard realities that would prevent the EOMA68 from working in this > fashion? Any bandwidth issues or technical limitations? I was just researching browser memory usage for myself. The best one is opera, which is rather shocking (chromium does not open all the files, this seems to be due to an internal load limiter or timeout.): 482 local html pages with JS disabled: Opera 12 1024MiB Chromium ~2000MiB The story gets worse with FF, way worse (and the time it takes FF to render, OMG!) David From doark at mail.com Mon May 29 15:44:37 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 10:44:37 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170529104437.78c743ce@ulgy_thing> On Fri, 19 May 2017 01:42:52 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 12:35 AM, Neil Jansen > wrote: > now, neil, this is the kind of speed at which an arduino 2560 *cannot > cope*, and, also, where the design flaws inherent in RAMPS - using > prototyping Evaluation Boards (polulu-style drivers) - start to show > up. Could you be more specific? Why can't the arduino cope? > david crocket (dc42) has specifically designed the duet series so that > you can consider exceeding PWM rates of 150 khz, which is what you > need if you want to sustain 500mm/sec for example (and do not want > problems to occur at speeds well below that). Link? > also i forgot to mention that i've been using the E3Dv6 "volcano" > which, when you use a 0.5 to 0.8mm nozzle can easily do flow rates of > something mad like.... 200c^3/min - particularly when combined with > the huge 40:1 gearing of the flex3drive which can *accurately* deliver > the kinds of torque needed. the volcano basically turns the heat > chamber round, so that the heat area is 20mm long instead of the usual > 10mm. Torque for what? Again, maybe a link would help us stay on the same page. > none of this stuff i knew about, the 18 months before i began > designing the laptop's parts. oh well. I researched 3D printers thoroughly before I bought mine. I even started asking questions at a forum, and I'm still not too certain if I got what I sought. According to this list, I did worse when looking for hacker boards. So, you are not alone. > welcome to the list neil. really good talking with you. > > l. Indeed. Sincerely, David From doark at mail.com Mon May 29 22:12:33 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:12:33 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170529171233.342f0e80@ulgy_thing> On Mon, 8 May 2017 05:45:36 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap wrote: > > > > > > On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > >> All software for the mali-t860 is open source? > > none. MALI is proprietary. I'm confused. Luke, if you plan on making an RK3399 into an eoma project how can you get RYF status if the mali GPU is closed source? For that matter, how can you get RYF cert. for your current eoma68 project? Unless I'm mistaken and it uses a different GPU? Or you just leave the HW crippled? Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Mon May 29 22:20:16 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:20:16 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] first prototype microdesktop casework In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170529172016.0ee7354d@ulgy_thing> On Mon, 8 May 2017 06:15:10 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 2:07 AM, wrote: > > I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a > > week. > > > > On Sat, 29 Apr 2017 12:42:29 +0100 > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> > >> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > >> wrote: > >> > http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/micro_desktop/news/ > >> > >> ok, ouch, onto the fourth revision of the corner-pieces already, and > >> some minor changes to the plywood are needed as well. this really > >> would have been awkward if someone else did it. > >> > >> the anycubic 3d printer is holding up well. the higher-quality PLA > >> from the company i found on aliexpress seems reasonable so far (the > >> "standard" quality definitely isn't: it literally crumbles under > >> pressure). > > > > > > Luke, (I can call you Luke, since you sign your name that way, right?) > > PLA stands for Poly-Lactic-Acid and if they are selling you something > > else you can complain, if not sue for false advertising. That's why we > > label things, so that we know what they are, right? So one PLA aught > > to be the same as any other. Aluminum is aluminum, titanium is > > titanium, why is PLA not PLA? > > it's partly down to where the lactic acid comes from: like any > chemistry you get a different yield and a totally different > composition depending on the process, the purity and the ingredients. > > most companies use corn for the raw materials, and they don't process > (purify) it properly. the result is that the PLA gives off acrid > fumes, deforms under pressure, does not adhere properly (to itself... > which is kinda important) and is generally completely fucking useless > for well... everything to do with 3D printing. Is there a way to tell how good a company is with their PLA? Price would not seem to make a big difference since companies can just charge lots of moo-la even with a poor product. > ok, i'd like you to do a test. take a small piece about 5cm long and > bend it very very fast, as quickly as you can, making the loop as > small as you can (8mm or less if you can). > > good PLA will snap. > > shit-quality PLA will discolour, going light-coloured. > > another test - a really really important one - is to make a long > rectangle (35mm high x 5mm x 10mm would probably do) - the height is > important - then clamp one end to a desk. on the other end suspend a > weight tied with string as close to the end as possible. make the > weight... let's say.... 0.5kg or so. not very much. now leave it for > a month. Like this? +-+ <--- Rectangle | | +DESK++-+W <--- Weight | | | | | | Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Mon May 29 22:29:12 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:29:12 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170529172912.67cd7882@ulgy_thing> On Mon, 8 May 2017 09:42:36 +0200 "mike.valk at gmail.com" wrote: > 2017-05-07 22:26 GMT+02:00 : > > > I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a > > week. > > > > On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:58:57 +0100 > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:47 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I think/hope FPGA's are more efficient for specific tasks then > > > > CPU/GPU's > > > > > > you wouldn't give a general-purpose task to an FPGA, and you > > > wouldn't give a specialist task for which they're not suited to a > > > CPU, GPU _or_ an FPGA: you'd give it to a custom piece of silicon. > > > > I always thought that FPGA's were good for prototyping or small fast > > tasks... But that's just how I learned about them. > > > > Don't think of what you were thought. Think of what you can do which has > not been thought. > > The world outside the box is bigger than the on inside the box ;-) Don't I know :) Linux Linux +-------+ Linux | | Linux |WINDOWZ| Linux | | Linux +-------+ Linux Linux Linux > > > > > in the case where you have something that falls outside of the > > > custom silicon (a newer CODEC for example) then yes, an FPGA would > > > *possibly* help... if and only if you have enough bandwidth. > > > > > > video is RIDICULOUSLY bandwidth-hungry. 1920x1080 @ 60fps 32bpp > > > is... an insane data-rate. it's 470 MEGABYTES per second. that's > > > what the framebuffer has to handle, so you not only have to have the > > > HDMI (or other video) PHY capable of handling that but the CODEC > > > hardware has to be able to *write* - simultaneously - on the exact > > > same memory bus. > > > > > > > Your number seemed off to me so I did the math: > > 1920*1080*60*4 == > > 497,664,000 > > You're off by almost 30 MiB. > > > > 497,664,000 ~= 498 MB (Units of 1000) > 497,664,000 ~= 475 MiB (Units of 1024) \me embarrassed. Sincerely, David From doark at mail.com Mon May 29 22:24:30 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:24:30 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170529172430.6ea5b81d@ulgy_thing> On Mon, 8 May 2017 06:24:08 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:00 AM, David Niklas wrote: > >> > important to avoid, because mixed analog and digital is incredibly > >> > hard to get right. also note that things like HDMI, SATA, and even > >> > ethernet are quite deliberately NOT on the list. Ethernet RMII > >> > (which is digital) could be implemented in software using a minion > >> > core. the advantage of using the opencores VGA (actually LCD) > >> > controller is: i already have the full source for a *complete* > >> > linux driver. > > > > Considering that analog was around *long* before digital I'm surprised > > that it is "Hard to get right", > > analog isn't "hard". digital isn't "hard". specifically *MIXING* > them is ultra-hard. > > > is there a reason for this? > > completely different processes and design criteria. the restrictions > (design rules) placed on digital ASIC layouts have to be adhered to in > the *analog* areas: you can't just change the stack to suit the analog > areas. i don't know the full details, but i know someone with 30 > years experience of working with ASICs who does. > > > Isn't there a chip for just this kind of thing? > > no. not a custom one... and we're taking custom ASICs. Forgive me for contradicting you again, but don't all computers that have a MIC in jack using some sort of analog to digital converter? And vice-versa with Headphone out? I think they all use PCM. Would such a converter be suitable? Why? Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Mon May 29 15:41:29 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 10:41:29 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170529104129.72b04239@ulgy_thing> On Fri, 19 May 2017 18:17:16 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 4:49 PM, wrote: > > Because a license prohibits it? > > no. > > > Because competitors can use them? > > correct. > > > Lkcl, have you asked tfirefly to give you the full schematics cad > > data? > > no... because they would think i was a bit dumb. or worse, wanted to > steal their business. i have no desire to piss them off. > > > > Because I got to think, you said tfirefly is withholding some > > schematics, > > no i did not say that. it may be true but i would not have > specifically said it. i may have said that *rockchip* has *not made > available the reference design* which is a totally different matter. > > you may have then thought "rockchip equals firefly". > > please try not to make cross-connections and/or correlations that > aren't actually the case. > > > > I wrote tfirefly asking them to email me the full schematics. > > Tfirefly never denied, that they had not made the full schematics > > public. They said, they could not disclose the full schematics. Maybe > > due to a lack of english skills on both sides. > > no, you've just misunderstood their business model. please don't ask > them again, it's not fair to ask them to make public something which > will destroy their business model. > > > > Then what should you ask tfirefly for? Full schematics cad data? > > absolutely nothing. you don't ask them for anything. they're a > third party business - an OEM. > > and we also can't ask rockchip either, because we're not going to > order a million of their processors, cash up-front... *until* they > have made full CAD data available. > > classic catch 22 situation. > > so instead we wait - as i specifically, specifically said - until > rockchip's Reference Designs leak out onto the public internet and are > available on e.g. taobao or other site, for sale for $25. > > l. So, how did the t-firefly group create their SOC if they could not get the CAD files? Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Mon May 29 22:37:01 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:37:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170529173701.560739a7@ulgy_thing> On Mon, 08 May 2017 09:59:50 +0100 "mike.valk at gmail.com" wrote: > 2017-05-08 3:34 GMT+02:00 : > > > I apologize for DOS'ing the list, I can only get online about once a > > week. > > > > On Thu, 4 May 2017 17:13:23 +0200 > > "mike.valk at gmail.com" wrote: > > > > > > 2017-05-04 9:04 GMT+02:00 John Luke Gibson : > > > > > > > Since it seems like a trivially simple task that for some reason > > > > no one has taken up, I would like to take the opportunity to > > > > exercise a learning experience and simultaneously benefit the > > > > community, by liberating PocketCHIP by deblobbing the source and > > > > re-compiling. > > > > > > The PocketCHIP is powered by their SoM: > > > http://linux-sunxi.org/NextThingCo_CHIP > > > > > > That is apparently a Allwinner R8 pared with an external rtl8723bs > > > Wifi/BT chip. > > > > > > The R8 is a rebranded A13. > > What? I own one of those and I'm almost certain that the CPU is an A7. > > Let's boot the PocketCHIP up... > > The processor is detected as an A7. > > > > It should be a Cortex-A8. > http://linux-sunxi.org/Allwinner_SoC_Family > > The new chip GR8, which is specific SoC for NextThingCo, seems to be an > "sun5i" as well. Also a slightly modified A13 I guess. > > The're seems to but mainline support for it. Icenowy Zheng has addid it > I think. But the'res no wiki page fo it. > http://linux-sunxi.org/Linux_mainlining_effort > http://linux-sunxi.org/GR8 Sorry, I (foolishly) though that ARMv7 == A7 (i.e. a contraction). > > > I'll attach the output, it would probably be interesting to see all of > > it... > > Done, it's compressed bzip2 since it's ~300KiB decompressed which is > > large for an email. > > > > Use pastebin or sorts. Or just cut out the specifica part. > Sorry, I thought the rest of it might be useful to look at. > > You're not giving us enough details. Who is Verhaegen? What did he > > burn out on? > > When I first considered purchasing a PocketCHiP I read about the GPU > > not having 3D capabilities because of a binary blob. So, the CHIP > > folks hired (I think it was an extended goal of the kickstarter > > campaign), a kernel dev to add support to the Linux kernel for the > > GPU. > > > That did not happen. The're is no Opensource linux driver for MALI. NTC > hardly involves itself with the linux-sunxi community. > > Their website is hardly obvious to the software needs of running their > hardware. > > How hard can it be.... > > "To use our hardware you have two options: Our BSP which has closed > source drivers, but you have full utilization of the hardware. Or use > the mainline kernel with some restrictions" Where is that quote from? > And state your involvement in freeing the hardware or not. > > NTC website is just one big selling machine. > Prior to purchasing the Pocket CHIP I read their docs and kickstarter page. See this (their kickstarter page says similar): https://docs.getchip.com/chip.html#is-chip-open-source-where-are-the-docs Are they flat out lying? Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Mon May 29 22:48:06 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:48:06 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170529174806.4e727816@ulgy_thing> On Mon, 8 May 2017 16:38:22 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:23 PM, wrote: > > > Is it common to do something like this against a person? > > in the unethical business world? of course it is! mostly you don't > get to hear about it, but software libre developers are different. > they're not beholden to anyone, they're not corporate slaves, they're > not controlled and they are entitled to speak their mind. > > consequently they get attacked. especially if some fucker deems that > their "profit" is threatened. > > for example: there was some discussion back in 1999 as to whether > microsoft would ever take out a contract on my life, when i was doing > the reverse-engineering of NT domains. consequently i decided that > the research that i was doing had best be presented responsibly to > them as "security vulnerabilities", presented PRIVATELY to them (as a > responsible security researcher does) and only later disclosing them > if they didn't fix the problems in a reasonable timeframe. > > and that's why ISS hired me. the strategy that i deployed worked. > one microsoft employee actually called ISS up asking them to fire me. > ISS declined, pointing out that i was quite likely to get very pissed > off, and would they prefer me inside pissing out or outside pissing > in? they're absolutely right: i would have worked really really hard > to release one devastating public zero-day security vulnerability - > with full exploit code - every few days for several months, if they'd > fucked with me. I am just a tad confused. 1. You started a reverse engineering project on NT domains. 2. You presented your success to MS as a security problem. 3. You were hired. 4. Someone in MS complained. So, the FLOSS folks never saw your work anyway? Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Mon May 29 22:57:44 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:57:44 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] first prototype microdesktop casework In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170529175744.364998a0@ulgy_thing> On Mon, 8 May 2017 18:51:21 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 2:07 AM, wrote: > > > I own a Reach3D printer. It's an all aluminum housing and z axis gear > > printer. I'm still in the construction phase, but if me and my caliper > > (it's auto-calibrating but I want it perfect :) work well together > > then I should be printing sometime around the 21st. I could help you > > with my printer at limited expense (unless something big happens in > > my life :) > > one piece of advice: buy some printbite, stick it to the aluminium > plate (after cleaning it - do follow PRECISELY the instructions for > printbite installation). better, get a MK3 (aluminium) bed plate, > because having a MK2 not in full contact with the aluminium is a pain > (uneven heat distribution and transfer). i've currently stacked some > cardboard underneath to make the MK2 stop bowing downwards... > *sigh*... > > printbite will stop a world of pain in both making prints stick and > also getting them off. but *read and follow the instructions*. > > l. Actually, I was thinking of using a lokibuild sheet (another kickstatr? thing (seems I have lost the link...)): here is one of the right size? https://shop3duniverse.com/collections/accessories/products/3d-universe-lokbuild-3d-print-build-surface Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Mon May 29 23:20:32 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 18:20:32 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> On Tue, 9 May 2017 20:14:36 -0400 John Luke Gibson wrote: > On 5/9/17, Lyberta wrote: > > doark at mail.com: > >> I think you're caught in the same trap, unable to realize your own > >> potential for lack of a moral standard (it also suffers as a result > >> of an Atheistic philosophy), and unable to accept a pointless > >> existence. > > > > When I was 19, I was in a very bad situation. Everything I've ever > > believed in was false. So I've spent the next 6 months looking for > > truth. Thankfully, I have dropped out of college by this time so I had > > time to investigate. Investigation is a good idea. If I may what college? What were you planning to major in? > > And in one moment it dawned upon me. There is no truth. Everything is > > relative. People invent their own truth and start believing in it. So > > if I want to stay unshackled I must not believe in anything. Think of a pendulum, now compare with what you just wrote............. The solution to your problem is not to "believe" or not to "believe" (belief is actually a REQUIREMENT of live since we could not decide about anything that is uncertain with out it). If you walk up to a person how do you tell whether or not they speak English well? Whether they can use big words? Do you start with something extremely simple or not? Or, for another example, Luke did not know whether or not he would succeed in completing the eoma68, or if it would be on time. He tries his best, but he still does not know if that is good enough. > > The next thing was supposed to be suicide but I couldn't do it. I > > don't know the future and I don't know what will happen when I die. > > In fact, I'm trapped inside my own consciousness and by definition > > can't escape it and see the truth. Remember Plato's allegory of the > > cave? This is one of the last things you'll learn in philosophy. > > Another thing that bugs me is, since I don't believe in anything, I > > also don't believe in science. I can't predict what's gonna happen in > > the next moment. Every once in a while I get in this state of mind > > where I understand that I understand nothing. Nonsense, we are in an action-reaction universe, observe the actions and you aught to be able to determine the reactions. > >> In any and all cases I think you might enjoy a book that is > >> eyeopening, insightful and uplifting, with respect to the world > >> around you, as opposed to your more dreary, despairing, world view. > > > > I was forced to read books at school and this gave a huge hatred for > > them. I remember I've tried to read a fiction book at psychiatric > > hospital and after the 1st paragraph I was so enraged that I quickly > > put it away. Though this mostly applies to fiction. > > Ouch! I had the identical experience, but I took the opportunity to read a nasty book to record all it's mistakes, thus I not only learned about the stupid things people write about but I am quite able to refute them. I always thought that fiction aught to reflect reality, to bring out what is. Spoke to my mother about you, see suggested watching a TV program on EWTN (not that I watch EWTN but maybe it would heklp...) God the universe and everything By Matt Fradd On June 18 12:00 AM (EST?) > > The mountains of religious thought pumped into this thread has it > visibly oozing (I mean no offense). Ooh, it's coming to get you :) > Firstly, the speaker in that video > linked @zap I'm familiar with and is very unreliable when their claims > are checked or researched. Secondly, Nietzsche explores that so-called > "trap". The thing is that religion presents the concept of morality > which fills the space created by ennui and lack of obstacles to > self-preservation. Noam Chomsky popularized abit the thought that the > consistent trend in nature is more intelligent species tend to go > extinct after a shorter period than obviously less intelligent ones > (i.e. beetles), this is due to genetic drift and inbred weaknesses due > to a lack of obstacles to their survival. Ethics is an artificial > obstacle we present ourselves in order to keep us strong (Nietzsche > referred to the model used by Christianity as Slave Morality, > suggesting that the ethics therein enslave the subscriber to the whims > and desires of the less fortunate, and thusly purporting the existence > of less fortunate as ENDEMICALLY NECESSARY because without less > fortunate people then there would be point to the ethics of > christianity and therefore there would be no obstacle to occupy > ourselves with and therefore genetic drift would set in and we would > die as a species. In other words, Nietzsche considered christianity so > obsessed with compassion, that in a world without suffering it would > utterly and completely fall apart.). > So people like Lyberta are causing genetic impurity and aught to be? > Nietzsche's life's work was dedicated to attempting to create a > well-developed replacement to both religion and "Slave Morality". > > I don't know if I support Nietzsche's alternative of "Master Morality" Then what do you support? > (where the obstacle is to become the best human possible, the > so-called "ubermensch"), but I do say that "trap" is hardly a "trap" > rather it's just a human need for an obstacle or conflict, and by > rejecting religion all one is doing is rejecting the type of conflict > which that religion endorses. How about inherent insufficiency? Or you can just <--insert favourite word-->. the very best, David From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 02:59:50 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 02:59:50 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] why are notebook devices not usb? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:02 PM, wrote: >> > Money. It's cheaper to do it that way.. >> >> yyep. this s pretty much.. errr... on the money > > > An unforeseen answer. I thought it would be lower > priced to make an usb device one time and several notebook > manufacturers would buy the device for their notebook. > The going for thinner argument sounds relevant. > I thought making proprietary devices would make it more difficult > and expensive for other manufacturers to make the same devices. exactly. thus raising the barrier for the other manufacturers and, thus, the logic goes, making sure that they get more market share. > Remarkable that it is lower priced for a manufacturer to make > a device by themselves. there are only a handful of actual mechanical keyboard design/manufacturing companies, the main one i know about is chicony, so they do at least use the same suppliers. so why don't they collaborate and cooperate?? i phoned one of them up one day, just to see what happened. i wanted to use one of their "no-brand" keyboard designs, i explained what i was doing, and why. the reason i asked for "no-brand" is so as not to step on the COPYRIGHTED NATURE OF THE DESIGN PROCESS THAT THEY DO FOR THEIR BILLION-DOLLAR CUSTOMERS. a manager higher up the chain still said "no", but that's not the point. the point is: *despite* using the same suppliers they only do so because it is more cost-competitivee to do so. if they could possibly make damn sure that their quotes competitive edge quotes is maintained through total secrecy and total incompatibility by not using shared parts that would result in a chance of competitors making more money than them they would do so. basically you're forgetting that these companies are scrambling and squabbling for tiny profit margins, ron, the consequences of that being that they do *not* want to collaborate. on anything. what they do with chicony is, if they do have to share the same mechanical frame and key layout (3rd-party "no-brand" designs like Benq) they *totally* redesign the flexible PCB, including a total new layout, total new connector positioning and so on. as the position of the keyboard connector is an absolutely critical part of the design which is influenced by far more factors than can be listed here the only way to "fix" that is to LITERALLY order a complete new flexible PCB for the keyboard. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 03:06:19 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:06:19 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:04 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > "This item is discontinued" >.< so that's 2 dead-ends... so far. keep going, ron. you'll only really start to understand how difficult this really is only by persisting until you *succeed* in finding what you want. or trying a different tack. or several. until you succeed. and this is just one component out of the dozens that you'll need to source in order to complete the proposed conversion of *one used laptop*. i believe the record so far for finding the correct (suitable) part for the EOMA68-A20 stands at five years. it's the mid-mount micro-hdmi (type D) connector. JAE DC3 series. ... are you beginning to get an appreciation for the perspective that, from an ecological standpoint, spending the time and energy on "converting" pre-existing mass-volume-designed products is an extraordinarily wasteful use of our planet's resources? this was the main unspoken message of that ted talk "how i made a $3 toaster for $1800 and took a year to do it". l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 03:19:57 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:19:57 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: <20170529171233.342f0e80@ulgy_thing> References: <20170529171233.342f0e80@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:12 PM, David Niklas wrote: > On Mon, 8 May 2017 05:45:36 +0100 > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> --- >> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >> >> >> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap wrote: >> > >> > >> > On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: >> >> All software for the mali-t860 is open source? >> >> none. MALI is proprietary. > > I'm confused. > Luke, if you plan on making an RK3399 into an eoma project how can you > get RYF status if the mali GPU is closed source? this was discussed a year ago or so. same process as for the EOMA68-A20 > For that matter, how can you get RYF cert. for your current eoma68 > project? by leaving out the proprietary crap, simple as that. see below. > Unless I'm mistaken and it uses a different GPU? it is actually a different GPU but that does not change the assessment process carried out by the FSF. > Or you just leave the HW crippled? if the FSF considered the device to be "crippled" by it not having the 3D engine running, such that there was a genuine risk that people would actively seek out the installation of proprietary software. in the case of e.g. a proprietary on-board WIFI device that *would* constitute a genuine risk of people *actively* seeking out proprietary firmware, and consequently the FSF quite naturally refuses to certify devices that contain non-removable proprietary on-board WIFI chips. however in this case it actually turns out that if you use the proprietary 3D GPU for the tasks that i suspect you *believe* will quotes accelerate quotes certain operations (such as X11), the MALI embedded GPU (or its associated proprietary software - we can't actually tell which because we DON'T HAVE THE DAMN SOURCE) is so piss-poor at its job that it actually SLOWS DOWN CERTAIN OPERATIONS of X11. given that 2D acceleration is already covered by fbturbo, and works really well *and is entirely libre software*, the *need* for the 3D engine just for basic Small-Office / Home-Office and day-to-day usage is NOT A CONCERN. so does that make it clear that the evaluation process (which was described a year ago) is not just a hard-and-fixed process? now, if on the other hand this was a dedicated Games Console product, *that would be an entirely different matter*. applying for RYF Certification on a 3D Games Console product which has a 3D GPU which *only works with proprietary software* would probably constitute too much of a risk that buyers *WOULD* in fact go out of their way to download the proprietary drivers. but this design *isn't being sold as a 3D Games Console*, is it? does that help clarify? l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Tue May 30 03:20:34 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 22:20:34 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook Idea: wifi adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not sure if you like this idea, but making a usb wifi adapter in an eco and libre way. aka within an eoma standard. My only reason for suggesting this is that libre ones might become scarce eventually and you have enough talent I bet to make a very strong yet still lightweight though. By strong I meant like 450mbps and very lightweight is what I meant by lightweight. I am giving this thought to you, because you are thinking of making a router why not a usb wifi adapter too as well? This would be something far off I imagine though. but its a thought I wanted to throw out there. Tell me what you think Luke. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 03:23:32 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:23:32 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? In-Reply-To: <20170529104129.72b04239@ulgy_thing> References: <20170529104129.72b04239@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 3:41 PM, David Niklas wrote: > So, how did the t-firefly group create their SOC if they could not get > the CAD files? who said that they could not get the CAD files from Rockchip? nobody said that they could not get the RK3399 CAD files from rockchip. i certainly didn't say that they could not get the CAD files from Rockchip. i also didn't see anyone *else* say that they could not get the CAD files from rockchip. or any other source for that matter. it may help you to understand how they got hold of them if (and i believe i am correct about this but it may need confirmation) you are aware that t-firefly is a trading name (or subsidary) of the extremely large company known as "Acer". Acer as you are no doubt aware created the highly-successful mass-volume RK3288-based Chromebook. Acer therefore qualifies, easily, in Rockchip's Management's eyes, as a "100k and above volumes" OEM 3rd party. they'd be *more* than happy to give Acer absolutely anything they want. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 03:27:19 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:27:19 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <20170529173701.560739a7@ulgy_thing> References: <20170529173701.560739a7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:37 PM, David Niklas wrote: > Prior to purchasing the Pocket CHIP I read their docs and kickstarter > page. See this (their kickstarter page says similar): > https://docs.getchip.com/chip.html#is-chip-open-source-where-are-the-docs > Are they flat out lying? absolutely not. absolutely everything (with the exception of MALI) has been available for the A13 core for... like... 4 years. getting this through to people's thick skulls, thanks to the high noise-to-signal ratio, is getting frankly a little tiresome, i don't mind admitting. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 03:36:24 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:36:24 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <20170529174806.4e727816@ulgy_thing> References: <20170529174806.4e727816@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:48 PM, David Niklas wrote: > I am just a tad confused. > 1. You started a reverse engineering project on NT domains. > 2. You presented your success to MS as a security problem. and also a collaboration and interoperability opportunity (which worked extremely successfully). and it also galvanised them to do a proper documentation effort. basically there wasn't any. at all. the code had been organically develeped by engineers that were getting on for retirement age. as they were the only ones left who understood the security implications, they began a rather urgent process called the "CIFS Initiative" to document the protocol so that their *own engineers could understand it*. frickin funny, really. > 3. You were hired. > 4. Someone in MS complained. some fuckwit in the brain-washed marketing department, yes. what's hilarious is that microsoft's own employees - the ones with good reputations and standing - had to tell this particular specimen of brainwashed fuckwittery, "you _do_ realise what this one individual could do to our company if you ever pissed him off??" :) > So, the FLOSS folks never saw your work anyway? they did.... and they resented it, very very badly. the so-called leaders of the samba team *really* did not like the fact that i knew more than them about MSRPC, and that the work that i spearheaded increased the codebase of samba at the time by a whopping THIRTY PERCENT. so they engineereed a way to get me out. by 2003 someone in the FLOSS community tracked my work on Exchange 5.5 reverse-engineering, copied it, reimplemnted it, and did not tell anyone that i was the one who had done the reverse-engineering. 20 years later samba is considered to be a failure. samba 4 was something like 10 years in the making, and yet failed to deliver. companies that had held on to samba 3, which the samba developers STOPPED work on because they didn't understand it properly, were struggling to keep it up and running and were totally incensed when samba 4 was finally released and was even worse and even harder to configure. they pushed me out and FLOSS has suffered as a result, because the complexity is so high it's beyond their ability to cope. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 03:41:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:41:07 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] first prototype microdesktop casework In-Reply-To: <20170529175744.364998a0@ulgy_thing> References: <20170529175744.364998a0@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:57 PM, David Niklas wrote: > Actually, I was thinking of using a lokibuild sheet (another kickstatr? > thing (seems I have lost the link...)): > here is one of the right size? > https://shop3duniverse.com/collections/accessories/products/3d-universe-lokbuild-3d-print-build-surface looks like it's worthwhile investigating - but it is still new. printbite has been around for years and is a known proven quantity. interestingly in the comments of the kickstarter it looks like the particular properties of printbite are down to thermal expansion. i.e. the surface expands and contracts, having thermal characteristics that lead it to contract at well below the glass point of PLA (or other material). thus, as it cools it shrinks enough to "pop" the object off the bed. which is kinda cool. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 03:42:50 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:42:50 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] first prototype microdesktop casework In-Reply-To: <20170529172016.0ee7354d@ulgy_thing> References: <20170529172016.0ee7354d@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:20 PM, David Niklas wrote: >> another test - a really really important one - is to make a long >> rectangle (35mm high x 5mm x 10mm would probably do) - the height is >> important - then clamp one end to a desk. on the other end suspend a >> weight tied with string as close to the end as possible. make the >> weight... let's say.... 0.5kg or so. not very much. now leave it for >> a month. > > > Like this? > > +-+ <--- Rectangle > | | > +DESK++-+W <--- Weight > | | > | | > | | no. like this: +-+++++++-W <--- Rectangle with Weight attached to the end | | +DESK++- l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 03:51:01 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:51:01 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: <20170529104437.78c743ce@ulgy_thing> References: <20170529104437.78c743ce@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 3:44 PM, wrote: > On Fri, 19 May 2017 01:42:52 +0100 > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> >> On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 12:35 AM, Neil Jansen >> wrote: > >> now, neil, this is the kind of speed at which an arduino 2560 *cannot >> cope*, and, also, where the design flaws inherent in RAMPS - using >> prototyping Evaluation Boards (polulu-style drivers) - start to show >> up. > Could you be more specific? Why can't the arduino cope? there are more experienced people who know the precise details. bottom line: an 8-bit 16 mhz processor is simply not fast enough to be able to send the data to the stepper motors in a way that they will remain properly synchronised. example: X axis gets changed direction/speed, and Y needs to be changed at the exact same time. but because it takes e.g. 50uS (0.05 ms) to get round the "compute" loop, the print head has moved on (say) 0.2mm in that time, it's going so fast, so X and Y are no longer properly synchronised. only by going to a 32-bit processor running at say 100mhz can you get the timing synchronisation back. >> david crocket (dc42) has specifically designed the duet series so that >> you can consider exceeding PWM rates of 150 khz, which is what you >> need if you want to sustain 500mm/sec for example (and do not want >> problems to occur at speeds well below that). > Link? google it please. >> also i forgot to mention that i've been using the E3Dv6 "volcano" >> which, when you use a 0.5 to 0.8mm nozzle can easily do flow rates of >> something mad like.... 200c^3/min - particularly when combined with >> the huge 40:1 gearing of the flex3drive which can *accurately* deliver >> the kinds of torque needed. the volcano basically turns the heat >> chamber round, so that the heat area is 20mm long instead of the usual >> 10mm. > Torque for what? > Again, maybe a link would help us stay on the same page. google them, please. i have a lot else to take care of. >> none of this stuff i knew about, the 18 months before i began >> designing the laptop's parts. oh well. > > I researched 3D printers thoroughly before I bought mine. I even started > asking questions at a forum, and I'm still not too certain if I got what > I sought. > According to this list, I did worse when looking for hacker boards. well, if you are only looking to print a few trinkets at below 50 mm / sec then whatever you have is perfectly fine. if on the other hand you're looking for something that you intend to take seriously, then yes you have been through an important learning experience. actually after looking at the design of TMC2100 postage-stamp-sized driver boards, i believe these may actually be okay. in these particular boards they've put the TMC2100 *ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PCB*. what that means is that you can put a heatsink on the TOP of the PCB, where it will actually be effective at taking heat away. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 03:53:16 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:53:16 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook Idea: wifi adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 3:20 AM, zap wrote: > I am not sure if you like this idea, but making a usb wifi adapter in an > eco and libre way. funnily enough i was looking to source AR9271 ICs and a reference design to be able to mitigate the risk of the AR9271 becoming less common (which it already is, due to atheros/qualcomm's new management not quite understanding why ath9k was so popular) > aka within an eoma standard. no - USB already covers that adequately. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 03:56:03 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:56:03 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Micro desktop corner design In-Reply-To: <104d0b0e-7bf7-f3b6-31b9-273ed005be1a@FineArtMarquetry.com> References: <104d0b0e-7bf7-f3b6-31b9-273ed005be1a@FineArtMarquetry.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Tor, the Marqueteur wrote: > Aloha Luke, > > I sent this to the list a couple times, but it hasn't shown up and nor > have any replies, so I'm sending it to you. I don't think anything's > changed with my email that should have done it, but maybe you'll see > something on the backend now that you know to look. > > Thanks, > Tor > > > Aloha, > > I just came across the page still up on my browser, and ended up with a > couple questions about the design as it stands now. > > 1. Am I right that the front right corner actually only needs a single > wide dado on the inside face for the eject button? yes. > 2. Do any of the components on the other three corners need cutouts, no. > or are they back just far enough to clear? yes. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Tue May 30 04:08:37 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 23:08:37 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On 5/29/17, David Niklas wrote: >> The mountains of religious thought pumped into this thread has it >> visibly oozing (I mean no offense). > Ooh, it's coming to get you :) Yes it is xD Spaghetti is gonna come to me in my dreams now and slap me (I'm very much kidding!) >> Nietzsche considered christianity so >> obsessed with compassion, that in a world without suffering it would >> utterly and completely fall apart.). >> > So people like Lyberta are causing genetic impurity and aught to be? Of course not! It's a common misconception that Nietzsche was a Nazi, since the Nazi's borrowed from the fellow's philosophy. My understanding is the Nietzsche believed that Christianity intentionally promoted social systems and governing which inevitably would cause a significant minority to be suffering. The fellow endeavored to demonstrate by way of thought experiments how the Christian churches would in most cases fall apart if their weren't enough people to feel compassionate or sorrowful for. This is why Christians frequently are brought up to believe that it's not the governments place to help the suffering, and rather that should be the obligation of the pious. > >> Nietzsche's life's work was dedicated to attempting to create a >> well-developed replacement to both religion and "Slave Morality". >> >> I don't know if I support Nietzsche's alternative of "Master Morality" > Then what do you support? I don't support any particular moral code or another, I believe there needs to be a much greater diversity of moral codes than we currently have, well-founded and sound even in the face of rigorous criticism. My own morals are formed quite synthetically, and formulated based around the idea that the universal ethic is a simple mandate for the maximal longterm diversity of conflict. To sum it up, I think of it like this: if a person dies, think of all of the conflicts both with themselves and others that they could have engaged in if they hadn't. Now if that person was a martyr for a cause you have something you can weigh, how much conflict would they have participated in versus how much conflict would their death inspire. One can also weigh destructive conflict negatively against one item or another, as I would probably refer to conflict which isn't destructive as progenitive. >> (where the obstacle is to become the best human possible, the >> so-called "ubermensch"), but I do say that "trap" is hardly a "trap" >> rather it's just a human need for an obstacle or conflict, and by >> rejecting religion all one is doing is rejecting the type of conflict >> which that religion endorses. > > How about inherent insufficiency? > Or you can just <--insert favourite word-->. Ultimately you will have conflict, if not with other humans then with the self or with physics :P From mike.valk at gmail.com Tue May 30 07:35:22 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 08:35:22 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <20170529173701.560739a7@ulgy_thing> References: <20170529173701.560739a7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: 2017-05-29 23:37 GMT+02:00 David Niklas : > On Mon, 08 May 2017 09:59:50 +0100 > "mike.valk at gmail.com" wrote: > > 2017-05-08 3:34 GMT+02:00 : > > Sorry, I (foolishly) though that ARMv7 == A7 (i.e. a contraction). > Don't worry that is common one. > > > > > > I'll attach the output, it would probably be interesting to see all of > > > it... > > > Done, it's compressed bzip2 since it's ~300KiB decompressed which is > > > large for an email. > > > > > > > Use pastebin or sorts. Or just cut out the specifica part. > > > > Sorry, I thought the rest of it might be useful to look at. > It might be. That's why I suggested pastebin et al. Those are better for public mailinglists than zipped files. > > > > > You're not giving us enough details. Who is Verhaegen? What did he > > > burn out on? > > > When I first considered purchasing a PocketCHiP I read about the GPU > > > not having 3D capabilities because of a binary blob. So, the CHIP > > > folks hired (I think it was an extended goal of the kickstarter > > > campaign), a kernel dev to add support to the Linux kernel for the > > > GPU. > > > > > > That did not happen. The're is no Opensource linux driver for MALI. NTC > > hardly involves itself with the linux-sunxi community. > > > > Their website is hardly obvious to the software needs of running their > > hardware. > > > > How hard can it be.... > > > > "To use our hardware you have two options: Our BSP which has closed > > source drivers, but you have full utilization of the hardware. Or use > > the mainline kernel with some restrictions" > Where is that quote from? > No ware. It was suggestion from me for them. That's what I would like to see on all those sites selling this type of s*ht. Be honest, be open. Don't façade the truth. It will come out and it will bite you. I don't believe the quote above would scare any potential buyer. The fact they don't mention it while I know it is a reason I wouldn't buy from them. It's like selling a car of which they have painted over rust and rewinded the odo-meter. On first glance it looks terrific but when you find the truth it will leave you angry and you'll go and tell everyone you know not to buy from them. So whenever I see a fancy site trying to sell a product of which I know the limitations and they hide it: They become unreliable to me and I'll move one and suggest to everyone that want's to listen to do the same. Sadly that's the state of all vendors today. So everybody buy a crappy painted over car with hardly any km/miles on it. ;-) From mike.valk at gmail.com Tue May 30 07:42:01 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 08:42:01 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre 64-bit risc-v SoC In-Reply-To: <20170529172430.6ea5b81d@ulgy_thing> References: <20170529172430.6ea5b81d@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: 2017-05-29 23:24 GMT+02:00 David Niklas : > On Mon, 8 May 2017 06:24:08 +0100 > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:00 AM, David Niklas wrote: > > > >> > important to avoid, because mixed analog and digital is incredibly > > >> > hard to get right. also note that things like HDMI, SATA, and even > > >> > ethernet are quite deliberately NOT on the list. Ethernet RMII > > >> > (which is digital) could be implemented in software using a minion > > >> > core. the advantage of using the opencores VGA (actually LCD) > > >> > controller is: i already have the full source for a *complete* > > >> > linux driver. > > > > > > Considering that analog was around *long* before digital I'm surprised > > > that it is "Hard to get right", > > > > analog isn't "hard". digital isn't "hard". specifically *MIXING* > > them is ultra-hard. > > > > > is there a reason for this? > > > > completely different processes and design criteria. the restrictions > > (design rules) placed on digital ASIC layouts have to be adhered to in > > the *analog* areas: you can't just change the stack to suit the analog > > areas. i don't know the full details, but i know someone with 30 > > years experience of working with ASICs who does. > > > > > Isn't there a chip for just this kind of thing? > > > > no. not a custom one... and we're taking custom ASICs. > > Forgive me for contradicting you again, but don't all computers that have > a MIC in jack using some sort of analog to digital converter? > And vice-versa with Headphone out? > I think they all use PCM. > Would such a converter be suitable? Why? > Crosstalk Plug in your headphones in a laptop and listen to computer hard at work. The speed of current digital signals makes them behave like analog signals. And as such analog signals interfere with the digital signals. With cables you can use shielding to mitigate that. On PCB's and inside IC. That's a lot harder because of their stacked nature. > > > Thanks, > David > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From leimon at gmail.com Tue May 30 07:48:48 2017 From: leimon at gmail.com (Mike Leimon) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 23:48:48 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] postMarketOS : good fit for EOMA50/68? Message-ID: Announcement of this project has been making the rounds lately and I think that it might be an excellent fit for an EOMA50 based phone/tablet (if and when those designs materialize). https://ollieparanoid.github.io/post/postmarketOS/ Currently they are targeting only old phone hardware however, I think that their concept would work well for any phone/touchscreen device that is designed to have a long useful life. I may be wrong but, I think a OS distribution of this nature would be an excellent complement to computing hardware that is also designed to last much longer than the current norm. -Mike From mike.valk at gmail.com Tue May 30 08:15:33 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 09:15:33 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170529174806.4e727816@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: 2017-05-30 4:36 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:48 PM, David Niklas wrote: > > > I am just a tad confused. > > 1. You started a reverse engineering project on NT domains. > > 2. You presented your success to MS as a security problem. > > and also a collaboration and interoperability opportunity (which > worked extremely successfully). > > and it also galvanised them to do a proper documentation effort. > basically there wasn't any. at all. the code had been organically > develeped by engineers that were getting on for retirement age. as > they were the only ones left who understood the security implications, > they began a rather urgent process called the "CIFS Initiative" to > document the protocol so that their *own engineers could understand > it*. > > frickin funny, really. > > > 3. You were hired. > > 4. Someone in MS complained. > > some fuckwit in the brain-washed marketing department, yes. what's > hilarious is that microsoft's own employees - the ones with good > reputations and standing - had to tell this particular specimen of > brainwashed fuckwittery, "you _do_ realise what this one individual > could do to our company if you ever pissed him off??" > > :) > > > > So, the FLOSS folks never saw your work anyway? > > they did.... and they resented it, very very badly. the so-called > leaders of the samba team *really* did not like the fact that i knew > more than them about MSRPC, and that the work that i spearheaded > increased the codebase of samba at the time by a whopping THIRTY > PERCENT. > > so they engineereed a way to get me out. > > by 2003 someone in the FLOSS community tracked my work on Exchange > 5.5 reverse-engineering, copied it, reimplemnted it, and did not tell > anyone that i was the one who had done the reverse-engineering. > > 20 years later samba is considered to be a failure. samba 4 was > something like 10 years in the making, and yet failed to deliver. > companies that had held on to samba 3, which the samba developers > STOPPED work on because they didn't understand it properly, were > struggling to keep it up and running and were totally incensed when > samba 4 was finally released and was even worse and even harder to > configure. > > they pushed me out and FLOSS has suffered as a result, because the > complexity is so high it's beyond their ability to cope. > You're sounding like libv here ;-) > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 09:45:56 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 09:45:56 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Micro desktop corner design In-Reply-To: References: <104d0b0e-7bf7-f3b6-31b9-273ed005be1a@FineArtMarquetry.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 5:09 AM, Tor, the Marqueteur wrote: > On 29/05/17 16:56, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > ...snip... >>> 1. Am I right that the front right corner actually only needs a single >>> wide dado on the inside face for the eject button? >> >> yes. >> >>> 2. Do any of the components on the other three corners need cutouts, >> >> no. >> >>> or are they back just far enough to clear? >> >> yes. > > Then, presuming I can find a router bit within tolerance for the height > of the eject button, it looks like I could do this design as is for the > corners. if i thin down the parts on the inner edge i could potentially do away with the need for the eject button inset entirely. i also want to bring out the PCB cut through to the front so that you can do a straight-through cut with a router @ around 1.8 to 2.0mm. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Tue May 30 15:18:09 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 10:18:09 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> On 05/29/2017 11:08 PM, John Luke Gibson wrote: > On 5/29/17, David Niklas wrote: >>> The mountains of religious thought pumped into this thread has it >>> visibly oozing (I mean no offense). >> Ooh, it's coming to get you :) > Yes it is xD Spaghetti is gonna come to me in my dreams now and slap > me (I'm very much kidding!) > >>> Nietzsche considered christianity so >>> obsessed with compassion, that in a world without suffering it would >>> utterly and completely fall apart.). >>> >> So people like Lyberta are causing genetic impurity and aught to be? > Of course not! It's a common misconception that Nietzsche was a Nazi, > since the Nazi's borrowed from the fellow's philosophy. > My understanding is the Nietzsche believed that Christianity > intentionally promoted social systems and governing which inevitably > would cause a significant minority to be suffering. The fellow > endeavored to demonstrate by way of thought experiments how the > Christian churches would in most cases fall apart if their weren't > enough people to feel compassionate or sorrowful for. This is why > Christians frequently are brought up to believe that it's not the > governments place to help the suffering, and rather that should be the > obligation of the pious. I disagree, I was brought up to believe that no matter who you are and where you are, you are to help the suffering, the poor, the sick, and the ill. This is also the belief of jesus christ. But alas such a noble soul is found rarely today because not all of my brethren truly believe in him. aka they use it for power. Though I bet if not for religion we humans would have found some other way to screw up the world. Humans are very creative at being evil sometimes. > >>> Nietzsche's life's work was dedicated to attempting to create a >>> well-developed replacement to both religion and "Slave Morality". >>> >>> I don't know if I support Nietzsche's alternative of "Master Morality" >> Then what do you support? > I don't support any particular moral code or another, I believe there > needs to be a much greater diversity of moral codes than we currently > have, well-founded and sound even in the face of rigorous criticism. > My own morals are formed quite synthetically, and formulated based > around the idea that the universal ethic is a simple mandate for the > maximal longterm diversity of conflict. To sum it up, I think of it > like this: if a person dies, think of all of the conflicts both with > themselves and others that they could have engaged in if they hadn't. > Now if that person was a martyr for a cause you have something you can > weigh, how much conflict would they have participated in versus how > much conflict would their death inspire. One can also weigh > destructive conflict negatively against one item or another, as I > would probably refer to conflict which isn't destructive as > progenitive. > >>> (where the obstacle is to become the best human possible, the >>> so-called "ubermensch"), but I do say that "trap" is hardly a "trap" >>> rather it's just a human need for an obstacle or conflict, and by >>> rejecting religion all one is doing is rejecting the type of conflict >>> which that religion endorses. >> >> How about inherent insufficiency? >> Or you can just <--insert favourite word-->. > Ultimately you will have conflict, if not with other humans then with > the self or with physics :P Exactly my point. That is why we humans need God. To point out our flaws and then to help us to correct our actions. Those who rebel against this notion whether they think they believe or not are on shaky ground. Especially those who pretend, they have no forgiveness to look forward to due to their pride. I myself hope to never go down that road again... ps, I don't like capitalism so don't think I am conservatives what so ever... ;) not all black people live in inner cities the same way not all christians are conservatives my point stands.. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From fuumind at openmailbox.org Tue May 30 16:41:27 2017 From: fuumind at openmailbox.org (fuumind) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 17:41:27 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> Message-ID: <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> On Tue, 30 May 2017 10:18:09 -0400 zap wrote: > ... That is why we humans need God. To point out our > flaws and then to help us to correct our actions. Those who rebel > against this notion whether they think they believe or not are on > shaky ground. I'd say that we humans need God period, he upholds our very existence every second. Our ultimate purpose is to have a relationship with Him and if we don't then we are not really alive. That's why it's so important to make everyone aware of this need. That's why Jesus' very last instruction to his followers was to 'spread the good news'. As a christian I have a twofold duty: 1. Help the people around me to understand our most basic human need which is to have a relationship with God and to help them find and build that relationship. 2. Care for the other needs of my 'neighbours', such as food, water, having a home, etc. The two go together but the first one is the most important because that is what makes the difference 'when we have shuffled off this mortal coil' (I hope I'm not coming on too strong this time!) /fuumind From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue May 30 17:10:33 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 12:10:33 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: Pardon me for saying, but the thought that I don't have enough common sense in my own dang head to know right from wrong, I find that a little offensive. I learned honesty from a man named Tommy Locklear. You've never heard of him, but he was a wonderful and kind person, while he was around. You might be a little skeptical of my claim when you learn that Tommy was a local mechanic for most of his life -- mechanics not having much of a reputation for honesty in most places, or so I hear -- but I'll offer up a story as evidence that this fellow was perhaps the exception to prove the rule. When my grandmother passed, she left behind, amongst many other things, her 1991 Ford Escort LX. Silver on the outside and light grey with dark grey and black accents, it was basically the color of a silent film. Not having much alternative, it quickly became Mom's car, for many, many years (she eventually bought a gently used '98 Saturn in the early 2000s, which replaced the Escort.) This was the sort of car where the speedometer pegged at 85, but you never actually wanted to go that fast in it. At 65mph, the car vibrated concerningly. At 75, one tended to be of the persuasion that the doors were about to fall off. We never did peg the speedometer, so I can't tell you what that was like. Mom wasn't much of one for lead-foot anyways... although there were times when that car went a little faster than it perhaps should have, so that we'd get someplace on time after leaving home late. At some point in our lives, we moved from a little podunk town in North Carolina, to Chapel Hill (of UNC basketball fame) so that Mom could get some graduate school experience. It was during this time that our little Escort sedan sprung a rather nasty oil leak. Mom took it to some nearby garage and they read her like a book. Knowing she knew absolutely nothing about cars except how to drive them, they told her it would be thousands of dollars for a new head gasket. She decided -- luckily -- to get a second opinion from Tommy. Well... Tommy came and got the car and brought it back to our little podunk town (out of which he operated) and took it into the shop. We were along for the ride. He popped the hood, poked around a little, and put the car up on the lift before poking around a little more. Then he called Mom over. He pointed to a little plug in the bottom of the crankcase, and explained that the plug, which (although I'll never know for sure, I was too young at the time) was probably for draining the oil out of the sump, had a broken seal. He replaced the plug and its seal for the princely sum of fifteen dollars, and that was the end of the leak. Tommy's whole life was filled with stories like that. He was an excellent mechanic for decades. He eventually had to stop working on cars, though, when his diabetes caught up with him enough to have his left leg amputated at the knees -- see, despite running a thriving business and being perhaps the most honest mechanic in town (and the town knew it!) he never could quite afford to keep the medication going that would have kept his diabetes in check... he eventually died, a few years ago, of a heart attack. I will note that the man that took over Tommy's garage after the amputation, pretty well ran it into the ground because he was not nearly as wholesome a man as Tommy was. Kind of a shame. I guess the point here is, if we have good role models around us, we can learn from our fellow humans what we need to know. As for me, I'd rather live in the here and now than dwell on what might happen --but can't be known for sure-- in the hereafter. Besides... isn't there something a little bit sinister, in a "Hotel California" sort of a way, about essentially living in a dream where you can have anything you want as long as it's not waking up...? ;) From petercarlson79 at gmail.com Tue May 30 17:23:33 2017 From: petercarlson79 at gmail.com (Peter Carlson) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:23:33 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: And so Tommy Locklear achieves what so many strive for, to be remembered, to have mattered. The ultimate compliment when ones dies "They were a good person, they will be missed" On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:11 AM Christopher Havel wrote: > Pardon me for saying, but the thought that I don't have enough common sense > in my own dang head to know right from wrong, I find that a little > offensive. > > I learned honesty from a man named Tommy Locklear. You've never heard of > him, but he was a wonderful and kind person, while he was around. You might > be a little skeptical of my claim when you learn that Tommy was a local > mechanic for most of his life -- mechanics not having much of a reputation > for honesty in most places, or so I hear -- but I'll offer up a story as > evidence that this fellow was perhaps the exception to prove the rule. > > When my grandmother passed, she left behind, amongst many other things, her > 1991 Ford Escort LX. Silver on the outside and light grey with dark grey > and black accents, it was basically the color of a silent film. Not having > much alternative, it quickly became Mom's car, for many, many years (she > eventually bought a gently used '98 Saturn in the early 2000s, which > replaced the Escort.) This was the sort of car where the speedometer pegged > at 85, but you never actually wanted to go that fast in it. At 65mph, the > car vibrated concerningly. At 75, one tended to be of the persuasion that > the doors were about to fall off. We never did peg the speedometer, so I > can't tell you what that was like. Mom wasn't much of one for lead-foot > anyways... although there were times when that car went a little faster > than it perhaps should have, so that we'd get someplace on time after > leaving home late. > > At some point in our lives, we moved from a little podunk town in North > Carolina, to Chapel Hill (of UNC basketball fame) so that Mom could get > some graduate school experience. It was during this time that our little > Escort sedan sprung a rather nasty oil leak. Mom took it to some nearby > garage and they read her like a book. Knowing she knew absolutely nothing > about cars except how to drive them, they told her it would be thousands of > dollars for a new head gasket. She decided -- luckily -- to get a second > opinion from Tommy. Well... Tommy came and got the car and brought it back > to our little podunk town (out of which he operated) and took it into the > shop. We were along for the ride. He popped the hood, poked around a > little, and put the car up on the lift before poking around a little more. > Then he called Mom over. He pointed to a little plug in the bottom of the > crankcase, and explained that the plug, which (although I'll never know for > sure, I was too young at the time) was probably for draining the oil out of > the sump, had a broken seal. He replaced the plug and its seal for the > princely sum of fifteen dollars, and that was the end of the leak. > > Tommy's whole life was filled with stories like that. He was an excellent > mechanic for decades. He eventually had to stop working on cars, though, > when his diabetes caught up with him enough to have his left leg amputated > at the knees -- see, despite running a thriving business and being perhaps > the most honest mechanic in town (and the town knew it!) he never could > quite afford to keep the medication going that would have kept his diabetes > in check... he eventually died, a few years ago, of a heart attack. I will > note that the man that took over Tommy's garage after the amputation, > pretty well ran it into the ground because he was not nearly as wholesome a > man as Tommy was. Kind of a shame. > > I guess the point here is, if we have good role models around us, we can > learn from our fellow humans what we need to know. As for me, I'd rather > live in the here and now than dwell on what might happen --but can't be > known for sure-- in the hereafter. Besides... isn't there something a > little bit sinister, in a "Hotel California" sort of a way, about > essentially living in a dream where you can have anything you want as long > as it's not waking up...? ;) > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue May 30 17:28:27 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 12:28:27 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: ...you know, I never thought about that, but it's true. He got the only kind of immortality that really exists... he *is* remembered, and quite fondly so... From fuumind at openmailbox.org Tue May 30 17:41:19 2017 From: fuumind at openmailbox.org (fuumind) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 18:41:19 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: <20170530184119.59b5dd1ed6db218448f2eab3@openmailbox.org> On Tue, 30 May 2017 12:10:33 -0400 Christopher Havel wrote: > ... I'm not quite sure if you're replying to what I wrote or to what zap wrote or to both of us but I'll bite anyway. :) > > I guess the point here is, if we have good role models around us, we > can learn from our fellow humans what we need to know. I quite agree! We all need of role models to mature! This is all well and good for the earthly life but it won't put you in a relationship with God. It *might* help you be a bit more open to Him though. > As for me, I'd > rather live in the here and now than dwell on what might happen --but > can't be known for sure-- in the hereafter. Besides... isn't there > something a little bit sinister, in a "Hotel California" sort of a > way, about essentially living in a dream where you can have anything > you want as long as it's not waking up...? ;) Well, science itself is something we also have to choose to belive in or not. If you take the reasoning all the way to the end you'd end up with 'I think therefor I am' I suppose... :) /fuumind From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue May 30 18:03:27 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 13:03:27 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170530184119.59b5dd1ed6db218448f2eab3@openmailbox.org> References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> <20170530184119.59b5dd1ed6db218448f2eab3@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: Science is something I can and do believe in. I'll take what can be concretely proved over what can't, any day of the week. That said, I do reserve a bit of reverence of a sort (for lack of a better term) for what cannot be determined through strictly Cartesian means (i.e. deconstructing a thing into its component elements, on the belief that the larger thing's functionality will become evident through said deconstruction)... it was Douglas Adams, I believe, who noted (quite truthfully) that, "[i]f you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat." There is something that is inescapably metaphysical about life itself and how it comes about, at least in this world at this time, and I have a sort of respect for that -- an understanding between me and the universe, if you will, that there may be something that science can't explain that's going on there. But that's really about as close as I get to religion or faith. Organized religion, quite honestly, seems to me an exercise in podiatric self-marksmanship (if you'll forgive the euphemism) -- if the point of the whole thing is to bring you closer to God, why put structure and organization and the inevitable middlemen that such things bring with them, in between you and Him...? It simply doesn't make sense to me that, in order to speak to God, you have to go through something to the effect of a human bucket-brigade -- which sounds like an open opportunity for things to go like a game of Telephone, amongst the other disadvantages. From petercarlson79 at gmail.com Tue May 30 18:21:08 2017 From: petercarlson79 at gmail.com (Peter Carlson) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 17:21:08 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> <20170530184119.59b5dd1ed6db218448f2eab3@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: So you're a Protestant just not an *obedient* one. On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 11:03 AM Christopher Havel wrote: > Science is something I can and do believe in. I'll take what can be > concretely proved over what can't, any day of the week. > > That said, I do reserve a bit of reverence of a sort (for lack of a better > term) for what cannot be determined through strictly Cartesian means (i.e. > deconstructing a thing into its component elements, on the belief that the > larger thing's functionality will become evident through said > deconstruction)... it was Douglas Adams, I believe, who noted (quite > truthfully) that, "[i]f you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, > the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat." There is > something that is inescapably metaphysical about life itself and how it > comes about, at least in this world at this time, and I have a sort of > respect for that -- an understanding between me and the universe, if you > will, that there may be something that science can't explain that's going > on there. > > But that's really about as close as I get to religion or faith. Organized > religion, quite honestly, seems to me an exercise in podiatric > self-marksmanship (if you'll forgive the euphemism) -- if the point of the > whole thing is to bring you closer to God, why put structure and > organization and the inevitable middlemen that such things bring with them, > in between you and Him...? It simply doesn't make sense to me that, in > order to speak to God, you have to go through something to the effect of a > human bucket-brigade -- which sounds like an open opportunity for things to > go like a game of Telephone, amongst the other disadvantages. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue May 30 18:28:15 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 13:28:15 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> <20170530184119.59b5dd1ed6db218448f2eab3@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: ...I wouldn't even go that far. I would say that I have a very limited faith, insofar as I believe that living things have some sort of spirit or soul that gives them life. That's quite literally the extent of it. I certainly don't believe in some sort of supreme being or 'force' or anything like that. Mind you, I'm not closed to the idea, I just have no evidence that such a being/force/etc exists. Lacking that evidence forces the assumption that such a thing does not exist. From petercarlson79 at gmail.com Tue May 30 18:41:49 2017 From: petercarlson79 at gmail.com (Peter Carlson) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 17:41:49 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> <20170530184119.59b5dd1ed6db218448f2eab3@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: That would be where I'm at. On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 11:28 AM Christopher Havel wrote: > ...I wouldn't even go that far. I would say that I have a very limited > faith, insofar as I believe that living things have some sort of spirit or > soul that gives them life. That's quite literally the extent of it. I > certainly don't believe in some sort of supreme being or 'force' or > anything like that. Mind you, I'm not closed to the idea, I just have no > evidence that such a being/force/etc exists. Lacking that evidence forces > the assumption that such a thing does not exist. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From fuumind at openmailbox.org Tue May 30 19:04:06 2017 From: fuumind at openmailbox.org (fuumind) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 20:04:06 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> <20170530184119.59b5dd1ed6db218448f2eab3@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: <20170530200406.f2611bd3fce32f584b32db43@openmailbox.org> On Tue, 30 May 2017 13:03:27 -0400 Christopher Havel wrote: > if the point of the whole thing is to bring you closer to God, why put > structure and organization and the inevitable middlemen that such > things bring with them, in between you and Him...? It simply doesn't > make sense to me that, in order to speak to God, you have to go > through something to the effect of a human bucket-brigade -- which > sounds like an open opportunity for things to go like a game of > Telephone, amongst the other disadvantages. I don't see any inevitable middlemen, at least not in christianity. Sure, there are priests and pastors and theologians and whatnot but they are not intermediaries. The best they can be is a help. They are people with whom I can discuss my thoughts and my doubts but they never define my thoughts and they never define my relationship with God. My relationship with God is owned by me and God alone. Structure and organization is necessary for us christians in order to be able to coexist, just as it is for the rest of humanity. Without it there would be chaos! The most important thing is that we seek intimacy with God, a relationship where we hold nothing back, because that's what life really is all about. /fuumind From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Tue May 30 20:15:14 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 15:15:14 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] molex 12v 5v 2a power supply together with 3 way usb otg host charger cable Message-ID: https://www.amazon.com/Coolerguys-100-240v-Molex-Power-Adapter/dp/B000MGG6SC/ref=sr_1_2/137-0773860-5662508?ie=UTF8&qid=1496171074&sr=8-2&keywords=molex+power+supply Can you power supply the pc card with the 5v 2a part of the power supply in combination with the 3 way usb otg host charger cable? Thank you. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 20:20:52 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 20:20:52 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] molex 12v 5v 2a power supply together with 3 way usb otg host charger cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 8:15 PM, wrote: > https://www.amazon.com/Coolerguys-100-240v-Molex-Power-Adapter/dp/B000MGG6SC/ref=sr_1_2/137-0773860-5662508?ie=UTF8&qid=1496171074&sr=8-2&keywords=molex+power+supply > Can you power supply the pc card with the 5v 2a part of the power supply in combination with the 3 way usb otg host charger cable? it should do, yes. best way to make absolutely sure is to read the bq24193 datasheet. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue May 30 20:22:23 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 15:22:23 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] molex 12v 5v 2a power supply together with 3 way usb otg host charger cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Regardless of rating, I wouldn't recommend it. Those are about $5-10 on eBay and they're worth a tenth the price. The last two I bought blew up in a year, and since China never puts much money into them, they don't die alone... whatever they're plugged into when the capacitors happen to burst is almost inevitably, irrecoverably toast as well... If you're going to use anything with a molex connector on it, get a small ATX12V or SFX12V (standard PC) power supply and use that. You need to find the green wire on the ATX connector (the largest PC-side connector, it'll be 20 or 24 pins depending on the age of the supply) and short that to one of the neighboring black wires. I usually use a paperclip -- it's a logic-level wire pair, that, so anything large enough to make the jump is almost overkill in terms of required AWG size. You could literally use phone-cable wire for that one connection, if you could get it to reliably contact... From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue May 30 20:53:45 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 20:53:45 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] molex 12v 5v 2a power supply together with 3 way usb otg host charger cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: also it looks like i'm going to be using the same 4A 7-21v regulator that's on the microdesktop board to generate a stable 5V. actually i'll have to make it 5.3v then add a monster schottky diode in front of it. long story. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue May 30 21:05:27 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:05:27 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] molex 12v 5v 2a power supply together with 3 way usb otg host charger cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ...actually (replying to both myself and to Ron here), if I were going to buy a power supply specifically for an EOMA68 card and I wanted maximum reliability (etc) -- forgive me, but this is what I'd buy... https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD810LL/A/apple-5w-usb-power-adapter Before you tie me to a stout pole and light me on fire, hear me out a minute. I promise I can at least partially justify this atrocity. First, I hate Apple with both vengeance and passion. Their "we'll out-and-out gouge you because we can get away with it" pricing model for everything makes me foam at the mouth, and their wasteful, "everything is a consumable" attitude makes me just about boil over. Ditto and then some for the closed ecosystem that is their hardware. But they put actual and considerable effort into their products, and for that --and that alone-- they earn my grudging respect. Their interface designs are freakin' beautiful, and their hardware really is designed to be pretty reliable and to last its planned lifetime. They don't cut nearly as many corners as they want you to think. Given that one of the worst tech companies on Earth, and justifiably so, is also one of the most skilled at making what they make -- as the line from The Matrix goes, "fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." Second, read this and then this . Ken Shirrif is no lightweight in the electronics engineering field. He knows his $#!* and then some -- sure, I know a thing or two about electronics, but I am comatose and braindead compared to Ken. You really do owe him the time to properly read and research-until-you-understand those two posts of his on (respectively) Apple and fake-Apple chargers -- the second of which explains in painful detail why you want to buy direct from Apple, thieving bastards that they are, and not from eBay or Amazon or the like. (Getting a non-counterfeit Apple charger through third-party sellers is roughly statistically equivalent to simultaneously winning two lotteries while being struck by lightning.) Okay, *now* you can burn me at the stake :P On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > also it looks like i'm going to be using the same 4A 7-21v regulator > that's on the microdesktop board to generate a stable 5V. actually > i'll have to make it 5.3v then add a monster schottky diode in front > of it. > > long story. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From doark at mail.com Tue May 30 20:29:38 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 15:29:38 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170529174806.4e727816@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170530152938.22400aff@ulgy_thing> On Tue, 30 May 2017 03:36:24 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:48 PM, David Niklas wrote: > > > I am just a tad confused. > > 1. You started a reverse engineering project on NT domains. > > 2. You presented your success to MS as a security problem. > > and also a collaboration and interoperability opportunity (which > worked extremely successfully). > > and it also galvanised them to do a proper documentation effort. > basically there wasn't any. at all. the code had been organically > develeped by engineers that were getting on for retirement age. as > they were the only ones left who understood the security implications, > they began a rather urgent process called the "CIFS Initiative" to > document the protocol so that their *own engineers could understand > it*. > > frickin funny, really. > > > 3. You were hired. > > 4. Someone in MS complained. > > some fuckwit in the brain-washed marketing department, yes. what's > hilarious is that microsoft's own employees - the ones with good > reputations and standing - had to tell this particular specimen of > brainwashed fuckwittery, "you _do_ realise what this one individual > could do to our company if you ever pissed him off??" > > :) > > > > So, the FLOSS folks never saw your work anyway? > > they did.... and they resented it, very very badly. the so-called > leaders of the samba team *really* did not like the fact that i knew > more than them about MSRPC, and that the work that i spearheaded > increased the codebase of samba at the time by a whopping THIRTY > PERCENT. > > so they engineereed a way to get me out. > > by 2003 someone in the FLOSS community tracked my work on Exchange > 5.5 reverse-engineering, copied it, reimplemnted it, and did not tell > anyone that i was the one who had done the reverse-engineering. > > 20 years later samba is considered to be a failure. samba 4 was > something like 10 years in the making, and yet failed to deliver. > companies that had held on to samba 3, which the samba developers > STOPPED work on because they didn't understand it properly, were > struggling to keep it up and running and were totally incensed when > samba 4 was finally released and was even worse and even harder to > configure. > > they pushed me out and FLOSS has suffered as a result, because the > complexity is so high it's beyond their ability to cope. > > l. I'm shocked. I've met so many nice people, like you, working on FLOSS projects... Just out of curiosity, did you ever consider developing a new version of samba that works right, just for fun and kicks? Sincerely, David From doark at mail.com Tue May 30 22:05:18 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 17:05:18 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] a designing a low-cost decent 3d printing board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170530170518.2d83c1a1@ulgy_thing> On Tue, 23 May 2017 02:27:24 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > in particular i would very much like to "stack" the steppers because i > have a design where it is going to use *four* z-axes. in a first > iteration those may be wired up as 2x 2-serial in parallel, however it > would be very *very* nice to be able to just add a second "stack" of 4 > z-axis steppers and use them to do automatic bed-levelling. so to do > that it would mean having on-board jumpers that could select > alternative GPIO pins... or maybe to use an I2C-based or SPI-based > GPIO expander in order to reduce the amount of GPIO needed. Remember that as the weight and speed of the hot end increases the load on the z-axis motors and gears also increases (if temporarily), leading to (temporary), inaccuracies when using multi motor setups. If I were to use multiple motors I'd not do it like this: M == motor H == Hot end TOP SIDE M----M +-----+ | | |H | |H | -> | | M----M M-----M But rather like this: TOP SIDE +----+ M----+ | | H | | | -> | | M----+ M----+ Assuming I understand you rightly. Sincerely, David From doark at mail.com Tue May 30 21:19:26 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:19:26 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: References: <20170529173701.560739a7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170530161926.4be4e043@ulgy_thing> On Tue, 30 May 2017 03:27:19 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:37 PM, David Niklas wrote: > > > Prior to purchasing the Pocket CHIP I read their docs and kickstarter > > page. See this (their kickstarter page says similar): > > https://docs.getchip.com/chip.html#is-chip-open-source-where-are-the-docs > > Are they flat out lying? > > absolutely not. absolutely everything (with the exception of MALI) > has been available for the A13 core for... like... 4 years. The wifi requires a binary blob according to this thread (unless I'm remembering wrongly). > getting > this through to people's thick skulls, thanks to the high > noise-to-signal ratio, is getting frankly a little tiresome, i don't > mind admitting. > > l. Well, when you say "opensource hardware" most people, including myself, think "Oh, a completely opensource down to the last transistor machine!!!" When i first read the slashdot page on the C.H.I.P. I really thought that that is what they meant... Same story with eoma. Which only makes sense, since, taking spamassasin as an example, if you get an "opensource" program you expect not only every line available for viewing but also the docs and mass-check rules to be "opensource", which they are. No offence intended luke, but when I see people trying to "Opensource" something I am often times disappointed. I know that you and others work very hard but it looks, to me, to be a half done job almost all the time and I mean with software too, because it tends to lack tests to verify it's functionality and docs to train the coming generations, myself numbering among them. Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Tue May 30 20:30:46 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 15:30:46 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] first prototype microdesktop casework In-Reply-To: References: <20170529175744.364998a0@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170530153046.61b6be10@ulgy_thing> On Tue, 30 May 2017 03:41:07 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:57 PM, David Niklas wrote: > > > Actually, I was thinking of using a lokibuild sheet (another > > kickstatr? thing (seems I have lost the link...)): > > here is one of the right size? > > https://shop3duniverse.com/collections/accessories/products/3d-universe-lokbuild-3d-print-build-surface > > looks like it's worthwhile investigating - but it is still new. > printbite has been around for years and is a known proven quantity. > > interestingly in the comments of the kickstarter it looks like the > particular properties of printbite are down to thermal expansion. > i.e. the surface expands and contracts, having thermal characteristics > that lead it to contract at well below the glass point of PLA (or > other material). > > thus, as it cools it shrinks enough to "pop" the object off the bed. > > which is kinda cool. > > l. Well, I might get a little of both and tell you how it works out. David From doark at mail.com Tue May 30 20:41:01 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 15:41:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: <20170530184119.59b5dd1ed6db218448f2eab3@openmailbox.org> References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> <20170530184119.59b5dd1ed6db218448f2eab3@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: <20170530154101.06797065@ulgy_thing> On Tue, 30 May 2017 18:41:19 +0200 fuumind wrote: > On Tue, 30 May 2017 12:10:33 -0400 > Christopher Havel wrote: > > As for me, I'd > > rather live in the here and now than dwell on what might happen --but > > can't be known for sure-- in the hereafter. Besides... isn't there > > something a little bit sinister, in a "Hotel California" sort of a > > way, about essentially living in a dream where you can have anything > > you want as long as it's not waking up...? ;) > > Well, science itself is something we also have to choose to belive in > or not. If you take the reasoning all the way to the end you'd end up > with 'I think therefor I am' I suppose... :) > > /fuumind > Then just don't stop thinking would be our motto. Which is why the above always makes me wonder why people try using such silly reasoning. David From doark at mail.com Tue May 30 21:02:05 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:02:05 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: References: <20170529104437.78c743ce@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170530160205.13cbdd98@ulgy_thing> On Tue, 30 May 2017 03:51:01 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 3:44 PM, wrote: > > On Fri, 19 May 2017 01:42:52 +0100 > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> > >> On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 12:35 AM, Neil Jansen > >> wrote: > > > >> now, neil, this is the kind of speed at which an arduino 2560 *cannot > >> cope*, and, also, where the design flaws inherent in RAMPS - using > >> prototyping Evaluation Boards (polulu-style drivers) - start to show > >> up. > > Could you be more specific? Why can't the arduino cope? > > there are more experienced people who know the precise details. > bottom line: an 8-bit 16 mhz processor is simply not fast enough to be > able to send the data to the stepper motors in a way that they will > remain properly synchronised. > > example: X axis gets changed direction/speed, and Y needs to be > changed at the exact same time. but because it takes e.g. 50uS (0.05 > ms) to get round the "compute" loop, the print head has moved on (say) > 0.2mm in that time, it's going so fast, so X and Y are no longer > properly synchronised. > > only by going to a 32-bit processor running at say 100mhz can you get > the timing synchronisation back. I understand now. I thought that the arduino was faster... > >> david crocket (dc42) has specifically designed the duet series so > >> that you can consider exceeding PWM rates of 150 khz, which is what > >> you need if you want to sustain 500mm/sec for example (and do not > >> want problems to occur at speeds well below that). > > Link? > > google it please. This looks like it: http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?147,33082,471483 > >> also i forgot to mention that i've been using the E3Dv6 "volcano" > >> which, when you use a 0.5 to 0.8mm nozzle can easily do flow rates of > >> something mad like.... 200c^3/min - particularly when combined with > >> the huge 40:1 gearing of the flex3drive which can *accurately* > >> deliver the kinds of torque needed. the volcano basically turns the > >> heat chamber round, so that the heat area is 20mm long instead of > >> the usual 10mm. > > Torque for what? > > Again, maybe a link would help us stay on the same page. > > google them, please. i have a lot else to take care of. I thought you were waiting for the PCBs to get done (which was going to take another week I think), and had nothing better to do than play with that oh-so-giggly-and-fun little girl in the youtube vids? Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Tue May 30 21:10:35 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:10:35 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: <20170529171233.342f0e80@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170530161035.0f32e8fe@ulgy_thing> On Tue, 30 May 2017 03:19:57 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > given that 2D acceleration is already covered by fbturbo, and works > really well *and is entirely libre software*, the *need* for the 3D > engine just for basic Small-Office / Home-Office and day-to-day usage > is NOT A CONCERN. > > so does that make it clear that the evaluation process (which was > described a year ago) is not just a hard-and-fixed process? I was not here a year ago. > now, if on the other hand this was a dedicated Games Console product, > *that would be an entirely different matter*. applying for RYF > Certification on a 3D Games Console product which has a 3D GPU which > *only works with proprietary software* would probably constitute too > much of a risk that buyers *WOULD* in fact go out of their way to > download the proprietary drivers. > > but this design *isn't being sold as a 3D Games Console*, is it? > > does that help clarify? > > l. > Yes, that's very clear, thanks. David From doark at mail.com Tue May 30 21:07:41 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:07:41 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] rk3399 what full schematics does lkcl want? In-Reply-To: References: <20170529104129.72b04239@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170530160741.533d2050@ulgy_thing> On Tue, 30 May 2017 03:23:32 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 3:41 PM, David Niklas wrote: > > > So, how did the t-firefly group create their SOC if they could not get > > the CAD files? > > who said that they could not get the CAD files from Rockchip? nobody > said that they could not get the RK3399 CAD files from rockchip. i > certainly didn't say that they could not get the CAD files from > Rockchip. i also didn't see anyone *else* say that they could not get > the CAD files from rockchip. > > or any other source for that matter. > > it may help you to understand how they got hold of them if (and i > believe i am correct about this but it may need confirmation) you are > aware that t-firefly is a trading name (or subsidary) of the extremely > large company known as "Acer". > > Acer as you are no doubt aware created the highly-successful > mass-volume RK3288-based Chromebook. > > Acer therefore qualifies, easily, in Rockchip's Management's eyes, as > a "100k and above volumes" OEM 3rd party. > > they'd be *more* than happy to give Acer absolutely anything they want. > Ah, now it makes sense. I was originally thinking that if you could not get hold of them then they should not be able to either. Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Tue May 30 21:48:36 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:48:36 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> On Mon, 22 May 2017 12:05:28 +0200 "mike.valk at gmail.com" wrote: > 2017-05-22 0:06 GMT+02:00 : > > > Because I deleted a previously email about this subject, I start a new > > email. > > Info. Lkcl said, he is not in favor of reverse engineering a mali gpu. > > Because it is about 150000eu and new gpus will emerge during the > > reverse engineering and the outcome is uncertain. > > > > I agree on his arguments. > > I assume you do not agree. > > > 150000eu is a crowd funding of 30000 people, each 5eu. I would pay an > > extra 5eu to be able to buy a source code computer. > > > > The issue with revese engineering the MALI gpu's is not justs about > money. ARM ltd. actively Seeks and destroys attempts on a OSS mail > driver. > > So that money needed is not only going to coding but is probably also > needed for legel fees and marketing against the smear and laster > campaign. > > They have already made one person's life very difficult: > http://libv.livejournal.com/ > I'd do it in a heart beat in spite of the evil people out there if I had the skills. Incidentally, couldn't you do this in an mostly automated fashion? I mean: 1. Have computer program send bits to GPU 2. Have same program read bits from EDP (or whatever), to determine result and time spend on task. 4. Have another program create a spread sheet for the in-out-time info and stats. 3. Have developer look at these and code. > > I do not know if 30000 people are interested or if they can agree on > > one board. > > > > But freeing MALI would help a lot of devices out there. So I'd trough in > some bucks. RE'ing MALI would not be for just one board. Agreed. It must be for all boards and support opengl, opencl, vulkan. > > You cannot get the mali source code faster, if you put more people on > > it? > > Finding the right minds and right amount of them working on the same > thing is a hard equation. > > You could add me to that team but my skills would be of limited use. > Adding someone of the same skill set would probably be even less > effective. > > So more money or more people is not the solutions. The right people and > the right amount is needed. > Well, I'd put ten dollars to a campaign like this without a HW reward. I'm assuming that beings that there are so many Mali GPUs and hacker boards out there that other people would also be very interested in this. What would I need to know to do this? Quick, point me to the books! No, really, I would do such a thing, I don't have a lot to loose, though for free I'd be taking my time... But still, I'd need an education. Thanks, David From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Tue May 30 22:07:52 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 17:07:52 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Message-ID: In a previous post, lkcl wrote the firefly rk3399 staff has the pcb cad files and he had no objection about firefly rejecting, which they have done towards me, to email the cad files. About lkcl's crowd funding, the mali gpu source code is not available. Lkcl can make the mali gpu source code not available, because he makes a reservation in the text in his ad. About the pcb cad files, lkcl has decided they will not be available until lkcl decides to provide them. I disagree on the decision. Being open source I find it implicit that all data will be provided immediately. Because lkcl has made a reservation in his ad about the cad files in question he can make that choice. In the firefly rk3399' ad it says, the hardware is open source. The ad is misleading and deceptive. I have found no reservations about the mali gpu source code or the pcb cad files. Firefly can probably not email the mali gpu source code, because they do not have it. They can email the pcb cad files because they have them. That is why I am going to demand both the mali gpu source code and the pcb cad files from firefly. If firefly does not provide the data in question, then I will file a complaint to kickstarter. It is unacceptable calling something open source, if it is not all open source. Of cource I will not mention lkcl in any form. -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:19:57 +0100 > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:12 PM, David Niklas wrote: > > On Mon, 8 May 2017 05:45:36 +0100 > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> --- > >> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > >> > >> > >> On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > >> >> All software for the mali-t860 is open source? > >> > >> none. MALI is proprietary. > > > > I'm confused. > > Luke, if you plan on making an RK3399 into an eoma project how can you > > get RYF status if the mali GPU is closed source? > > this was discussed a year ago or so. same process as for the EOMA68-A20 > > > For that matter, how can you get RYF cert. for your current eoma68 > > project? > > by leaving out the proprietary crap, simple as that. see below. > > > Unless I'm mistaken and it uses a different GPU? > > it is actually a different GPU but that does not change the > assessment process carried out by the FSF. > > > Or you just leave the HW crippled? > > if the FSF considered the device to be "crippled" by it not having > the 3D engine running, such that there was a genuine risk that people > would actively seek out the installation of proprietary software. > > in the case of e.g. a proprietary on-board WIFI device that *would* > constitute a genuine risk of people *actively* seeking out proprietary > firmware, and consequently the FSF quite naturally refuses to certify > devices that contain non-removable proprietary on-board WIFI chips. > > however in this case it actually turns out that if you use the > proprietary 3D GPU for the tasks that i suspect you *believe* will > quotes accelerate quotes certain operations (such as X11), the MALI > embedded GPU (or its associated proprietary software - we can't > actually tell which because we DON'T HAVE THE DAMN SOURCE) is so > piss-poor at its job that it actually SLOWS DOWN CERTAIN OPERATIONS of > X11. > > given that 2D acceleration is already covered by fbturbo, and works > really well *and is entirely libre software*, the *need* for the 3D > engine just for basic Small-Office / Home-Office and day-to-day usage > is NOT A CONCERN. > > so does that make it clear that the evaluation process (which was > described a year ago) is not just a hard-and-fixed process? > > now, if on the other hand this was a dedicated Games Console product, > *that would be an entirely different matter*. applying for RYF > Certification on a 3D Games Console product which has a 3D GPU which > *only works with proprietary software* would probably constitute too > much of a risk that buyers *WOULD* in fact go out of their way to > download the proprietary drivers. > > but this design *isn't being sold as a 3D Games Console*, is it? > > does that help clarify? > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From samtygier at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 30 23:16:42 2017 From: samtygier at yahoo.co.uk (sam) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 00:16:42 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On 30/05/17 22:48, doark at mail.com wrote: > Well, I'd put ten dollars to a campaign like this without a HW reward. > I'm assuming that beings that there are so many Mali GPUs and hacker > boards out there that other people would also be very interested in this. > What would I need to know to do this? > Quick, point me to the books! > No, really, I would do such a thing, I don't have a lot to loose, though > for free I'd be taking my time... > But still, I'd need an education. > > Start from the existing code http://limadriver.org/ From nick-eoma68 at rcpt.to Wed May 31 05:21:34 2017 From: nick-eoma68 at rcpt.to (Nick Bannon) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 12:21:34 +0800 Subject: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170531042134.GG15969@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 04:48:03PM -0400, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > http://usb.brando.com/prod_detail.php?prod_id=00666 Promising! but as Christopher mentioned, "This item is Discontinued". I had luck searching for another 56 key keyboard ("50%"?): USD $23.73 http://www.dx.com/p/mini-56-key-usb-keyboard-with-retractable-usb-cable-for-pc-and-laptops-15953 http://www.dx.com/p/15953 http://www.dx.com/c/computers-tablets-networking-399/keyboards-302/USB-351 The X/Y dimensions are very similar, though it's 60% heavier and 5mm thicker. Dimensions: 6.69 in x 2.91 in x 0.79 in (170 x 74 x 20 mm) Weight: 6.53 oz (185g) I think I'd miss the dedicated arrow keys. I'd like it even more if it had an integrated trackball or trackpoint, which I guess requires a USB hub device/emulation as well?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick Nick. -- Nick Bannon | "I made this letter longer than usual because nick-sig at rcpt.to | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 31 05:32:36 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 05:32:36 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] a designing a low-cost decent 3d printing board In-Reply-To: <20170530170518.2d83c1a1@ulgy_thing> References: <20170530170518.2d83c1a1@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:05 PM, David Niklas wrote: > Remember that as the weight and speed of the hot end increases the load > on the z-axis motors and gears also increases (if temporarily), leading to > (temporary), inaccuracies when using multi motor setups. but you don't print at the time when z-axis motors are in motion: they're there purely to move the bed up (or down) for the next layer. thus the important thing to have for z-axes is precision and fine tolerances. fine tolerances can be achieved on lead screws with double nuts and a spring to prevent backlash. ok so on to the next issue: > If I were to use multiple motors I'd not do it like this: > M == motor > H == Hot end > > TOP SIDE > M----M +-----+ > | | |H | > |H | -> | | > M----M M-----M > > But rather like this: > > > TOP SIDE > +----+ M----+ > | | H | > | | -> | | > M----+ M----+ > > Assuming I understand you rightly. so you're advocating 3 lead screws instead of 4 i considered this as well, however i realised that if the printbed has even the slightest amount of twist it becomes impossible to correct that: you literally have to throw out whatever metal plate is being used and replace it. if you have 4 lead screws, they may be used to place a twist on the plate to return it to dead-flat. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 31 05:34:42 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 05:34:42 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Side-Topic: Liberating PocketCHIP In-Reply-To: <20170530152938.22400aff@ulgy_thing> References: <20170529174806.4e727816@ulgy_thing> <20170530152938.22400aff@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 8:29 PM, David Niklas wrote: > I'm shocked. yehh don't be - that's people for you. > I've met so many nice people, like you, working on FLOSS projects... > Just out of curiosity, did you ever consider developing a new version of > samba that works right, just for fun and kicks? i did... but with so much mindshare invested, and how much effort it takes (3 years to correctly implement the network neighbourhood for example and that's *just one sub-system*) i figured i had better things to do. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 31 05:45:18 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 05:45:18 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Existential 3D Printing Moments In-Reply-To: <20170530160205.13cbdd98@ulgy_thing> References: <20170529104437.78c743ce@ulgy_thing> <20170530160205.13cbdd98@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 9:02 PM, David Niklas wrote: >> only by going to a 32-bit processor running at say 100mhz can you get >> the timing synchronisation back. > > I understand now. I thought that the arduino was faster... neeeh. they're.... well... not very good, basically. also the arduino base code.... *sigh* it does timing loops to get accuracy by hand-coding them in assembler with NOOPs (no operation). as a programmer, you know what that means... :) >> >> david crocket (dc42) has specifically designed the duet series so >> >> that you can consider exceeding PWM rates of 150 khz, which is what >> >> you need if you want to sustain 500mm/sec for example (and do not >> >> want problems to occur at speeds well below that). >> > Link? >> >> google it please. > > This looks like it: > http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?147,33082,471483 yehhh that'd be about right - a good example, and really highly technically informative and insightful. good find. > >> >> also i forgot to mention that i've been using the E3Dv6 "volcano" >> >> which, when you use a 0.5 to 0.8mm nozzle can easily do flow rates of >> >> something mad like.... 200c^3/min - particularly when combined with >> >> the huge 40:1 gearing of the flex3drive which can *accurately* >> >> deliver the kinds of torque needed. the volcano basically turns the >> >> heat chamber round, so that the heat area is 20mm long instead of >> >> the usual 10mm. >> > Torque for what? >> > Again, maybe a link would help us stay on the same page. >> >> google them, please. i have a lot else to take care of. > > > I thought you were waiting for the PCBs to get done (which was going to > take another week I think), yehyeh.... still waiting: mike has family issues as well as pressing production to deal with, he's got one side of the PCBs done, the other side is next. > and had nothing better to do than play with > that oh-so-giggly-and-fun little girl in the youtube vids? :) my daughter's currently in the US, her grandmother's 80th birthday was this month. ok so i re-read what i wrote a bit, one of the reasons why you can't push extruders beyond a certain point is because the heat chamber can't keep up with melting the filament fast enough, but also it takes quite a lot of pressure to do that. if you can get higher torque out of the motors by having a 40:1 gear ratio instead of the usual "direct drive" or maybe 3:1 or 4:1 as is usual even with the mendel90, lulzbots and so on, you have enough torque to be able to do it. that's what i meant. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 31 06:01:54 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 06:01:54 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:07 PM, wrote: > In a previous post, lkcl wrote the firefly rk3399 staff > has the pcb cad files and he had no objection about firefly rejecting, > which they have done towards me, to email the cad files. aiyaaa, you didn't ask them did you? it's their proprietary and confidential business, and they're most likely under NDA with rockchip - please don't do that, ron. > About lkcl's crowd funding, the mali gpu source code is > not available. Lkcl can make the mali gpu source code > not available, because he makes a reservation in the text in his ad. this is a rather confusing sentence-construction... ad... ad... ah, you may be referring to the crowd-funding text as "advertising". that word is reserved for businesses. this is *not* a business. > About the pcb cad files, lkcl has decided they will not be > available until lkcl decides to provide them. noooo, ron, most of the CAD files *are* available. the only ones that are not are the EOMA68-A20 ones because i've invested literally tens of thousands of dollars in their development, and if someone else goes and clones them (particularly in china) before the project's properly established it jeapordises the ENTIRE PROJECT. especially if they fuck it up and get it wrong. > I disagree on the decision. tough. > Being open source I find it implicit that all data will be > provided immediately. normally i would agree with you 100%. and in the case of the housings those *are* 100% available. however in the case of the A20 PCB i have to make an exception to not make them available *IMMEDIATELY*. let me be clear. they WILL be made available. is that clear? > Because lkcl has made a reservation in his ad there is no advertising, ron. advertising is a tool utilised by businesses. this is not a business. > about the cad files in question he can make that choice. > > In the firefly rk3399' ad it says, the hardware is open source. that means that the software is available under libre licenses. it does not mean that the *CAD* files for the *hardware* are available. > The ad is misleading and deceptive. ron, i do notice that you are often confused by the use of words that potentially have multiple meanings, or that you sometimes cross-associate words. in this case however you would be correct, there is the possibility of thinking that "open source" applies *to* the hardware CAD files. however if they meant that, they would have used the words "open hardware" or "libre hardware". it's a common enough mistake. > I have found no reservations about the mali gpu > source code or the pcb cad files. Firefly can probably > not email the mali gpu source code, because they do > not have it. that's correct. you'd be asking them for something they don't have, and are not legally obligated to provide even if they did. > They can email the pcb cad files because they have them. ron: they are in absolutely no way obligated to you to provide them. they've used the right words, and it is *you* who is confused by their choice of words. > That is why I am going to demand both the mali gpu > source code and the pcb cad files from firefly. ron please don't do that. you will only harm the reputation of the free software community by doing so. > If firefly does not provide the data in question, > then I will file a complaint to kickstarter. It is unacceptable calling something open source, if it is not all open source. that's down to confusion on your part about wording, and it is their choice and right as a proprietary business what they choose to release and do not choose to release. you have *no right* to tell them that they *have* to release the source code. that is down to them to learn the consequences of their decisions. > Of cource I will not mention lkcl in any form. don't do it, ron. you'll cause damage to the reputation of the entire free software community, lessening the chances of companies like Acer from wanting to work with us. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 31 06:15:57 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 06:15:57 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ron: what you're about to attempt is called "coercion". it's unethical. the principles behind the libre concept are that ethics come first: very few people in the libre world actually truly understand that, because they think it's about the technology or about the "four freedoms" as specifically defined and laid out. people need to be free to make their own choices. firefly (Acer) have made their choice - as they are entirely at liberty to do - to release the full source code of the SOFTWARE and NOT the hardware. if you attempt to coerce them into doing something that they have not themselves chosen to do, they will not react as you intend, i guarantee it. so please don't do it: it's unethical. l. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed May 31 06:25:32 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 01:25:32 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Totally derailed topic In-Reply-To: References: <20170529182032.526dd4ff@ulgy_thing> <5ab3a743-595d-0062-7121-2383e4e8f6f1@posteo.de> <20170530174127.c6be026b8a861739f5a2c92f@openmailbox.org> <20170530184119.59b5dd1ed6db218448f2eab3@openmailbox.org> Message-ID: On 5/30/17, Christopher Havel wrote: > ...I wouldn't even go that far. I would say that I have a very limited > faith, insofar as I believe that living things have some sort of spirit or > soul that gives them life. That's quite literally the extent of it. I > certainly don't believe in some sort of supreme being or 'force' or > anything like that. Mind you, I'm not closed to the idea, I just have no > evidence that such a being/force/etc exists. Lacking that evidence forces > the assumption that such a thing does not exist. You might want to investigate Shinto-ism. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed May 31 14:19:54 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 09:19:54 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model Message-ID: Neverminding the ridiculous length of that subject line.. I just thought an interesting thought. First, a little context, (I know how rms feels about blockchains) I was investigating slock.it and thinking to myself "why don't they just make a hardware standard like eoma instead of closing their development and calling it open?" (Like, Pi-Top is [n]ever gonna release those stl files) (I realize that's a loaded 'just' cause it sounds easy, but is one of the most difficult possible) Then, it dawned on me: Lulzbot doesn't do that.. Wait, Lulzbot exclusively uses open software in their development.. Then *bam* like a boulder (nothing to do with Lulzbot): GPL-violations, improper GUI training, failing to extend using APIs/Addons, failing to bugsmash/'track-issues', failing to participate in mailing-lists and irc, failing to simply fork when development goals conflict, planned esoteric-ism and/or planned obsolescence, failure to secure clientèle data by using fully free systems (when relevant), failure to participate-in and be-aware-of public conversations about the underlining security of said systems (when relevant), failure to disclose supplychain information/identities (when relevant), failure at general transparency. All of these things traditionally go wrong with not only companies that use open source, but companies in-general. Then, it truly truly dawned on me, free software needs standards organizations as well. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed May 31 14:43:08 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 09:43:08 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If I may put in my two cents, I look at it from the perspective of two cultures. We aren't a country and don't have our own language, so it's a bit of a strange analogy to take literally but I mean it literally. I see this as the same with being Vegan, different culture, different ethics. The most unethical thing is to try and destroy a culture first and foremost. By being isolationist and not cooperating with people and organizations that are part of a different culture and getting to a point where we can not-only respect our differences but appreciate them as well, one is ultimately setting out to BURDEN all life with their ethics. Filibustering the room; stopping all progress for the sake of one ideal. I think thats part of what Luke means when saying: it's unethical. On 5/31/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > ron: what you're about to attempt is called "coercion". it's > unethical. the principles behind the libre concept are that ethics > come first: very few people in the libre world actually truly > understand that, because they think it's about the technology or about > the "four freedoms" as specifically defined and laid out. > > people need to be free to make their own choices. firefly (Acer) have > made their choice - as they are entirely at liberty to do - to release > the full source code of the SOFTWARE and NOT the hardware. > > if you attempt to coerce them into doing something that they have not > themselves chosen to do, they will not react as you intend, i > guarantee it. > > so please don't do it: it's unethical. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 31 14:51:14 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 14:51:14 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 2:19 PM, John Luke Gibson wrote: > Then, it truly truly dawned on me, free software needs standards > organizations as well. or something like that.. yeah. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Wed May 31 18:02:46 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 13:02:46 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 06:15:57 +0100 > ron: what you're about to attempt is called "coercion". it's > unethical. the principles behind the libre concept are that ethics > come first: very few people in the libre world actually truly > understand that, because they think it's about the technology or about > the "four freedoms" as specifically defined and laid out. > > people need to be free to make their own choices. firefly (Acer) have > made their choice - as they are entirely at liberty to do - to release > the full source code of the SOFTWARE and NOT the hardware. > > if you attempt to coerce them into doing something that they have not > themselves chosen to do, they will not react as you intend, i > guarantee it. > > so please don't do it: it's unethical. > > l. > It is not common to debate strategy on a public mailing list. Because this is a minor matter and I do not believe I will get the data I want from firefly no matter what, I will tell what I wanted to do. I believe their kickstarter webpage is misleading and deceptive. They write the hardware is open source. Likely it is not legally established what defines open source hardware. I would say every piece of data and software about the computer has to be open source. It is about what the buyer of an item reasonably can expect. Not what seller decides by himself. To my knowledge seller has made no reservations on kickstarter. Then I say, he has to hand over what data seller has. They are supposed to be professionals. If they screw up in their ad, it is their problem. Arguments saying it is their data and business platform are not relevant. I am located in eu. Firefly is located in china. If firefly will not hand over the data I want, I will have to sue them in china or usa, if that is where kickstarter is located. I am not going to do that. If firefly refuses to provide the data, I am going to file a complaint to kickstarter about firefly. I tried to get the data. Wrote them and see what happens. Maybe firefly by mistake would provide the data. Did I believe it would work? No. https://youtu.be/6o_mVPwHYnk?t=1007 You may call it coercion and unethical. I do it anyway. Because I am weighing it up against my privacy and computer security. I cannot buy new libre software computers which have all devices enabled. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed May 31 18:05:51 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 13:05:51 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/31/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 2:19 PM, John Luke Gibson > wrote: > >> Then, it truly truly dawned on me, free software needs standards >> organizations as well. > > or something like that.. yeah. It would a great opportunity for projects like blender and gimp, that a company could use a certification mark that basically says "they contributed; there were no gpl violations; they made themselves available on mailing lists; they didn't bumble around with the software instead of asking for help; they were transparent with the public about anything we would find ethically-questionable;" etcetera etcetera. That mark would like include a QR code which people could check the status and make sure a physically printed mark hasn't been revoked after printing. And, their could be regular transparent royalty/inspection fee for as long as the company wants that mark to have an active status. It's brilliant! From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Wed May 31 18:10:18 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 13:10:18 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dude, with all due respect, Luke knows what he's talking about. He's been in this world for a good long while. If he says "pump your brakes" on this stuff, like he's basically doing... I'd be pumping my brakes right about now. Sounds to me like you're taking a stick to a hornets' nest here. Not a good candidate for favorite outdoor sport, if you ask me. I'm just sayin'. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 31 18:17:34 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 18:17:34 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: huh. hmmm, if it's ok with you i might run that by dr stallman, see what he thinks. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:05 PM, John Luke Gibson wrote: > On 5/31/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 2:19 PM, John Luke Gibson >> wrote: >> >>> Then, it truly truly dawned on me, free software needs standards >>> organizations as well. >> >> or something like that.. yeah. > > It would a great opportunity for projects like blender and gimp, that > a company could use a certification mark that basically says "they > contributed; there were no gpl violations; they made themselves > available on mailing lists; they didn't bumble around with the > software instead of asking for help; they were transparent with the > public about anything we would find ethically-questionable;" etcetera > etcetera. That mark would like include a QR code which people could > check the status and make sure a physically printed mark hasn't been > revoked after printing. And, their could be regular transparent > royalty/inspection fee for as long as the company wants that mark to > have an active status. > > It's brilliant! > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed May 31 18:21:04 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 18:21:04 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Sounds to me like you're taking a stick to a hornets' nest here. Not a good > candidate for favorite outdoor sport, if you ask me. i worked out a long time ago that these companies are not going to break from proprietary practices without successful examples to follow in the very arena that we'd like them to change. l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Wed May 31 18:51:30 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 13:51:30 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 06:01:54 +0100 > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:07 PM, wrote: > > In a previous post, lkcl wrote the firefly rk3399 staff > > has the pcb cad files and he had no objection about firefly rejecting, > > which they have done towards me, to email the cad files. > > aiyaaa, you didn't ask them did you? it's their proprietary and confidential > business, and they're most likely under NDA with rockchip - please don't > do that, ron. > > > About lkcl's crowd funding, the mali gpu source code is > > not available. Lkcl can make the mali gpu source code > > not available, because he makes a reservation in the text in his ad. > > this is a rather confusing sentence-construction... ad... ad... ah, you > may be referring to the crowd-funding text as "advertising". that word > is reserved for businesses. this is *not* a business. > > > > About the pcb cad files, lkcl has decided they will not be > > available until lkcl decides to provide them. > > noooo, ron, most of the CAD files *are* available. the only ones that > are not are the EOMA68-A20 ones because i've invested literally tens > of thousands of dollars in their development, and if someone else goes > and clones them (particularly in china) before the project's properly > established it jeapordises the ENTIRE PROJECT. especially if they > fuck it up and get it wrong. I understand your arguments and why you made the decision. I was pointing out, that proper open source reasoning, in my opinion, would require that all data is provided. > > > > I disagree on the decision. > > tough. > > > Being open source I find it implicit that all data will be > > provided immediately. > > normally i would agree with you 100%. and in the case of the > housings those *are* 100% available. > > however in the case of the A20 PCB i have to make an exception > to not make them available *IMMEDIATELY*. > > let me be clear. they WILL be made available. is that clear? > > > > Because lkcl has made a reservation in his ad > > there is no advertising, ron. advertising is a tool utilised by > businesses. this is not a business. I have reflected on that. What I write now is not directed against you or your crowd funding. It is in general about crowd funding. It seems crowd funding is some form of workaround about buying an item. I have no knowledge about court decisions in this field. I could imagine due to consumer law, a court would rule it a common purchase. Meaning consumer rights would apply. > > > about the cad files in question he can make that choice. > > > > In the firefly rk3399' ad it says, the hardware is open source. > > that means that the software is available under libre licenses. it > does not mean that the *CAD* files for the *hardware* are available. > > > The ad is misleading and deceptive. > > ron, i do notice that you are often confused by the use of words that > potentially have multiple meanings, or that you sometimes > cross-associate words. > > in this case however you would be correct, there is the possibility > of thinking that "open source" applies *to* the hardware CAD files. > > however if they meant that, they would have used the words "open > hardware" or "libre hardware". I disagree. Firefly writes "open source hardware platform". I find my interpretation legitimate. You are not backing up your interpretation with arguments. My argument is, they say it is open source. Then everything has to be open source if no reservations are stated. > > it's a common enough mistake. > > > I have found no reservations about the mali gpu > > source code or the pcb cad files. Firefly can probably > > not email the mali gpu source code, because they do > > not have it. > > that's correct. you'd be asking them for something they don't have, > and are not legally obligated to provide even if they did. That is debatable. > > > They can email the pcb cad files because they have them. > > ron: they are in absolutely no way obligated to you to provide them. > they've used the right words, and it is *you* who is confused by their > choice of words. Again debatable. > > > > That is why I am going to demand both the mali gpu > > source code and the pcb cad files from firefly. > > ron please don't do that. you will only harm the reputation of the > free software community by doing so. I do not believe playing nice with the manufacturers will show a great rate of successes. Rather if big numbers of people would coordinated act like I do, some impact might show. There is no reason to not try both path simultaneous. Some people play nice. Other make demands. > > > If firefly does not provide the data in question, > > then I will file a complaint to kickstarter. It is unacceptable calling something open source, if it is not all open source. > > that's down to confusion on your part about wording, and it is their > choice and right as a proprietary business what they choose to release > and do not choose to release. > > you have *no right* to tell them that they *have* to release the > source code. that is down to them to learn the consequences of their > decisions. > > > > Of cource I will not mention lkcl in any form. > > don't do it, ron. you'll cause damage to the reputation of the > entire free software community, lessening the chances of companies > like Acer from wanting to work with us. You have a tendency to magnify the impact of one persons actions. Do you actually believe, that me writing manufacturers and making demands, right or wrong demands, has any impact on the situation of libre software? Do you think acer in any way takes notice? No. If half a million people in a short period of time hammered acer with demands, then there might be some impact. Previously you told me, that putting pressure on manufacturers should be done. Then I discarded what you said. I have reached to another point of view. Maybe coordinated campaigns, which are not being done now, might show some results. It can mobilize libre software people. Getting the power to have a say against manufacturers. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Wed May 31 20:56:22 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 15:56:22 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Nick Bannon Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] usb keyboard, width about 15cm? Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 12:21:34 +0800 > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 04:48:03PM -0400, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > > http://usb.brando.com/prod_detail.php?prod_id=00666 > > Promising! but as Christopher mentioned, "This item is Discontinued". > > I had luck searching for another 56 key keyboard ("50%"?): USD $23.73 Good find. It looks to be the same keyboard. > > http://www.dx.com/p/mini-56-key-usb-keyboard-with-retractable-usb-cable-for-pc-and-laptops-15953 > http://www.dx.com/p/15953 > http://www.dx.com/c/computers-tablets-networking-399/keyboards-302/USB-351 > > The X/Y dimensions are very similar, though it's 60% heavier and 5mm thicker. > Dimensions: 6.69 in x 2.91 in x 0.79 in (170 x 74 x 20 mm) > Weight: 6.53 oz (185g) > > I think I'd miss the dedicated arrow keys. > I'd like it even more if it had an integrated trackball or trackpoint, That would make it much easier to integrate it in a pc card cabinet. I have searched for wired usb touchpads and trackpoints. I have not found any. > which I guess requires a USB hub device/emulation as well?: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick > > Nick. > I have bought one 7usd bluetooth small keyboard. It appears to have a touchpad too. I cannot say how difficult it will be to modify it to a wired usb keyboard. There is the https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/images/Pyra-Main.png cabinet. If the 3d printer cad files are free software. > -- > Nick Bannon | "I made this letter longer than usual because > nick-sig at rcpt.to | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Wed May 31 21:04:57 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 16:04:57 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept apccard Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Christopher Havel Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept apccard Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 12:34:18 -0400 > You use the Arduino IDE to program Teensies, IIRC. They might also have > their own. Code is uploaded directly to a USB port on the Teensy. Have a > look around --> https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/ > > You *probably* need a Teensy++ 2.0. That is not a guarantee, just a 1 teensy for the keyboard and 1 teensy for the touchpad? Are there not simpler microcontrollers? > recommendation. I have not myself played around with Teensies, they're > expensive (relative to Arduino Nano/Micro clones on eBay, and to my typical > budget) and I tend to think in hardware terms far better than anything > software/firmware. I can't really help you beyond what I've just written. > > The computer doesn't 'see' keymapping. The computer sees a string of > information that tells it what key was depressed and released and when. > "Keymap" is where the key is in the matrix, which the computer doesn't care > about. The computer cares that you pressed the ESC key and released it x > number of microseconds later, not that it's row 1, column 1 in the matrix. > It seems to be too complicated. > You should look up the USB HID protocol and the PS/2 keyboard protocol. > Those will tell you a lot of how the computer 'sees' and 'talks to' a > keyboard... and how the keyboard 'talks' back. > > On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 12:27 PM, wrote: > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > From: Christopher Havel > > Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > To: Eco-Conscious Computing > > Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept > > apc card > > Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 17:40:52 -0400 > > > > > > > Keyboard is easy if you know a little electronics. A laptop keyboard is > > a matrix keypad. Rows and columns. One key connects one row to one column. > > > > > > Look up a little thing called the "Teensy" -- it is a microcontroller > > board. You can (if you are very good at soldering) connect from the > > keyboard's PCB connector (cut the > > > > > > Can the teensy make the key mapping correct and the key mapping will be > > correct when arriving at the computer's usb port? > > > > PCB and solder to the connector while it's still on there -- no shorts, > > mind you, or it won't work, and the pin pitch is usually insane...) to a > > Teensy and make a "custom keyboard" that way. You will of course have to > > program the Teensy but that's the easy part ;) an Arduino Leonardo clone > > from eBay (also try to find, if you still can, > > > > > > Can you use a raspberry pi 0 to program a teensy? > > > > > > "Arduino Micro" clones -- NOT the "Pro Micro" ones, they won't have enough > > pins). Same code will run there and work just fine. > > > > > > Forget the battery, unless you have a reflow toaster oven (or other > > homemade reflow equipment, or access to the professional gear) -- you will > > need it for the kinds of chips that let computers talk to batteries, AFAIK. > > Too much trouble. > > > > > > I am designing, for a competition on Hackaday, a "made from common > > modules" "laptop" that I'm calling the AnyTop. The goal is that anyone can > > build it if they can use a screwdriver, knife, and some sort of drill. (The > > drill is only needed in one place.) It won't have a battery... but it will > > be a laptop form factor and it will work. Luke, would some discussion of > > this be on-topic? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Wed May 31 21:17:45 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 16:17:45 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to accept apccard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Respectfully, if you can't understand the protocol, you're out of your depth and need to tackle something simpler and build up to this. Take the scenic route, it will reward you better. Trust me -- I speak from experience on this -- you'll wind up with a half-completed project that doesn't work and you don't know why. I have a dozen or so of those in my past. As for the Teensy... yes, one for mouse, one for keyboard. Use a touch panel for a small LCD for the touchscreen. There's really no way to combine them without getting into proprietary chips from eg Holtek -- and since those chips are proprietary and therefore expensive and hard to get, you're thankful that you can use a pair of Teensies ;) From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed May 31 23:35:53 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 18:35:53 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/31/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > huh. hmmm, if it's ok with you i might run that by dr stallman, see > what he thinks. That'd be awesome; be awesomer if you mentioned me ('d love to win zeh brownie points xS) From doark at mail.com Wed May 31 22:41:27 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 17:41:27 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] why are notebook devices not usb? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170531174127.7046834d@ulgy_thing> On Sat, 27 May 2017 18:56:18 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Christopher Havel > wrote: > > > Money. It's cheaper to do it that way.. > > yyep. this s pretty much.. errr... on the money > > > There's also the form factor to consider -- to an extent, there are no > > standards for laptop gadgetry because there's no way to do that. > > Different laptop sizes and shapes require differently-sized and > > -shaped crap inside. > > ... all completely optimised and customised based around what they > can get hold of, or what the reference design from intel is (which > will have specific power requirements and thermal requirements)...then > there is the constant demand for "thin-ness" which, as chris says, > means that a CUSTOM CONNECTOR gets ordered and made... and you can't > get hold of them. > > ron i wrote a long time ago when developing the tablet, about using a > single embedded controller which only costs $1, instead of putting in > a $1 USB hub, a $1.50 USB camera, a $1 USB audio IC and so on. Do you still know where your write up is? Thanks, David