From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Jun 1 00:14:25 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 19:14:25 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/31/17, ronwirring at safe-mail.net wrote: > You have a tendency to magnify the impact of one persons actions. > Do you actually believe, that me writing manufacturers and making > demands, right or wrong demands, has any impact on the situation > of libre software? Do you think acer in any way takes notice? No. > If half a million people in a short period of time hammered acer > with demands, then there might be some impact. > > Previously you told me, that putting pressure on manufacturers > should be done. > Then I discarded what you said. I have reached to another point > of view. Maybe coordinated campaigns, which are not being done now, might > show some results. It can mobilize libre software people. Getting the > power to have a say against manufacturers. The best way to approach the issue is as a partner, not as a client. There are people that go through the support channels with unreasonable demands or QA-failure related complaints magnifying them to ridiculous proportions. When using support channels to address a legitimate ethical concern, one will only look like one of those unreasonable customers. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Thu Jun 1 17:00:38 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 12:00:38 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] intel pc card Message-ID: Intel has made a pc card. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlBtqeNykEc Probably intel will allow only intel inside pc cards. Even more they will maybe build in mechanisms to stop peripheral electronics from accept non intel pc cards. If the intel pc card peripherals get a marked and they can be modified to run with lkcl's pc cards, that could be a gain for his pc cards. From david at boddie.org.uk Thu Jun 1 17:09:33 2017 From: david at boddie.org.uk (David Boddie) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 18:09:33 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] intel pc card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201706011809.33852.david@boddie.org.uk> On Thu Jun 1 17:00:38 BST 2017, ronwirring wrote: > Intel has made a pc card. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlBtqeNykEc > Probably intel will allow only intel inside pc cards. Even more > they will maybe build in mechanisms to stop peripheral > electronics from accept non intel pc cards. > > If the intel pc card peripherals get a marked and they can > be modified to run with lkcl's pc cards, that could be a gain > for his pc cards. Just FYI, this may have been discussed on this list in January: http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2017-January/date.html I don't know if much has changed with regard to their card since then. David From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Jun 1 18:17:33 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 18:17:33 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] intel pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:00 PM, wrote: > Intel has made a pc card. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlBtqeNykEc > Probably intel will allow only intel inside pc cards. Even more > they will maybe build in mechanisms to stop peripheral > electronics from accept non intel pc cards. that would be important to confirm. From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Thu Jun 1 21:03:13 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 23:03:13 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] intel pc card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They seem very keen to pretend they were 'first' with this our lovely project. Someone should probably go on there and correct Engadget. https://www.engadget.com/2017/06/01/intel-compute-card-hands-on/ And going through the comments even the ordinary tech lovers can see manufacturers won't be convinced by it. On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:00 PM, wrote: > > Intel has made a pc card. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlBtqeNykEc > > Probably intel will allow only intel inside pc cards. Even more > > they will maybe build in mechanisms to stop peripheral > > electronics from accept non intel pc cards. > > that would be important to confirm. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Fri Jun 2 07:14:09 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 09:14:09 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <229908B6-B211-4344-BC9E-7A9BA5BE4BA4@gmail.com> I'm going to agree that going through the support channels will get you nowhere. You want to talk to management, way up management like Product Manager or CEO. Otherwise PR will ignore you and if you sue their suits will bury you in delays. On 1 June 2017 02:14:25 GMT+03:00, John Luke Gibson wrote: >On 5/31/17, ronwirring at safe-mail.net wrote: >> You have a tendency to magnify the impact of one persons actions. >> Do you actually believe, that me writing manufacturers and making >> demands, right or wrong demands, has any impact on the situation >> of libre software? Do you think acer in any way takes notice? No. >> If half a million people in a short period of time hammered acer >> with demands, then there might be some impact. >> >> Previously you told me, that putting pressure on manufacturers >> should be done. >> Then I discarded what you said. I have reached to another point >> of view. Maybe coordinated campaigns, which are not being done now, >might >> show some results. It can mobilize libre software people. Getting the >> power to have a say against manufacturers. > >The best way to approach the issue is as a partner, not as a client. >There are people that go through the support channels with >unreasonable demands or QA-failure related complaints magnifying them >to ridiculous proportions. > >When using support channels to address a legitimate ethical concern, >one will only look like one of those unreasonable customers. > >_______________________________________________ >arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jun 5 05:57:04 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 05:57:04 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > huh. hmmm, if it's ok with you i might run that by dr stallman, see > what he thinks. ok, so i spoke to dr stallman, it took me a while to get across the idea, and after clarifying it he said, *in effect*, "please could you write up some developer best practices as long as every GNU Project would automatically conform to them". he didn't exactly say that, so please do not quote me on it. the starting point should be to take this "list of project *SERVICES* offered to the GNU project" https://www.gnu.org/software/devel.en.html and turn it into a list of *GENERAL* project *RECOMMENDATIONS*, using the GNU server services as... like... the "Gold Standard". the one thing that is missing from this list is a "Charter" - like how the Apache Software Foundation has a Charter. i am not entirely sure what to advise / do on that. over the past 20+ years i have witnessed many high-profile projects treat good people in some pretty horrible ways - not once and not on just the one project but many many times. the Apache Software Foundation on the other hand, whilst they have had problems, their Charter has allowed them to (formally) keep things "civil", including being able to remove a project leader who clearly did not understand the harm he was causing to the project, through his actions. also worthwhile considering is adding the recommendation for developers to take the "Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers". http://farmerandfarmer.org/medicine/printable.html the nice thing about that oath is that it can just be added simply to make people aware of it... *without* actually requiring that they take it. anyway i have started a page here in order to coordinate ideas and the actual proposal: http://rhombus-tech.net/proposed_best_practices/ l. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 22:47:35 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 17:47:35 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alrightie~! Foremost, since "existing" free software and cultural works aren't likely to be sold, I think a libre software standards organization wouldn't certify individual works or pieces of code, so much as projects as a whole including roles performed by non-developers Version control is almost ubiquitously used for source code, to the point it should hardly need mentioned; however very rarely are non-source project files, such as .blend files, collaboratively designed this way. I don't think people are unwilling to use version control in this way, rather they just don't think of it since most artists aren't developers and art has been digitally designed for much longer than version control systems have been easy to use. So I think uploading files to repository and saving changes as commits, would be a good 'non-developer' "best practice" to apply to a software certification standard. Anyways, developer 'best practices'. Having idle hands study and document code, particularly esoteric parts or parts they, the contributors, are unfamiliar with (so they can learn it*). Generally, the instinct we are taught from criticisms of our artwork, is that 'if we can't do something well, it's best not to do it at all', however with our version control systems generally the opposite is much more likely true, leaving room also for the hopefully soon to be colloquial: "if a task seems too easy, it is best leave it for someone else more novice; if a task seems too difficult, it is best to do it sloppily, so someone else won't have to do it start from nothing". So I think doing the best we possibly can do to develop the worst code and worst documentation we possibly can, (xD) is another good developer 'best practice'. Most of us know it's not uncommon for very large projects to receive access to proprietary source code under NDA, just to mod it**. Likewise libre software is often perceived as insufficient as-is, however proprietary software can be close enough that it is more practical. In these cases, we need to respect reality, however also ensure all is carefully weighed. The biggest pitfall is looking at all the forks, addons, and extensions, then also looking at what you would like to do that one can't with proprietary software out of the box. Whilest being careful not to berate preferences, looking at how modifiable the base program is and what it could accomplish rather than what it can accomplish, is an important thing to make sure both project's developer's and non-developer's occasionally remember to do. So, considering what we could do more proportionally with what we can do, is an important developer and non-developer 'best practice', especially since as least occasionally they'll make one of their could-do'es someone else's can-do. Another practice that kindof ties in with the other one, and an often unsung aim of the GNU project as a whole, is make programming easier. Occasionally, a project will have extra resources or volunteers/contributors than their described roadmap warrants. Not always is this obvious from the beginning when it does happen. In fact, usually it isn't till the end that it becomes apparent. The ideal would be say 'even if proprietary software is more practical, use/extend free software for the benefit of everyone when you have the resource', but the reality is very rarely will you know you have the resources until it's far too late. Instead, a good programming practice might be to use the extra resources to modify the language itself or some api to make the code smaller. We all should know line counting is a trap, but we should also know we are more likely to read a pamphlet than a book. So, it should be a good developer 'best practice' should be to use extra resources at the end to make your code intuitive and concise, and to fork others so hopefully adaptations to libraries and compilers that make your code more concise and intuitive get upstream. This is just a rough start, but I wanted to post it here and get feedback before putting it on the wiki. I really like the analogy of medicine to software development, particularly the use of the Hippocratic Oath as a point of reference. I was looking at the 'original' oath, and there is an interesting intersection with the morals of free software. Take a look at this: "to impart precept, oral instruction, and all other instruction to my own [kids], the [kids] of my teacher, and to indentured pupils who have taken the physician’s oath, but to nobody else."*** That last bit of 'teaching no one else' is a little tongue-and-cheek for the free software movement xD But, still, it has this aura of freedom of information that's interesting for ancients. In fact most of the last two and the first two clauses, mutually apply to software. I'm the artistic type who would take the original oath and edit it to apply to software****. * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkm0TNFzIeg ** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yisaDxvBH9s&t=5m50s *** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath#Text_of_the_oath **** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intertextuality On 6/5/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: >> huh. hmmm, if it's ok with you i might run that by dr stallman, see >> what he thinks. > > ok, so i spoke to dr stallman, it took me a while to get across the > idea, and after clarifying it he said, *in effect*, "please could you > write up some developer best practices as long as every GNU Project > would automatically conform to them". he didn't exactly say that, so > please do not quote me on it. > > the starting point should be to take this "list of project *SERVICES* > offered to the GNU project" > https://www.gnu.org/software/devel.en.html > > and turn it into a list of *GENERAL* project *RECOMMENDATIONS*, using > the GNU server services as... like... the "Gold Standard". > > the one thing that is missing from this list is a "Charter" - like > how the Apache Software Foundation has a Charter. i am not entirely > sure what to advise / do on that. over the past 20+ years i have > witnessed many high-profile projects treat good people in some pretty > horrible ways - not once and not on just the one project but many many > times. > > the Apache Software Foundation on the other hand, whilst they have had > problems, their Charter has allowed them to (formally) keep things > "civil", including being able to remove a project leader who clearly > did not understand the harm he was causing to the project, through his > actions. > > also worthwhile considering is adding the recommendation for > developers to take the "Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers". > > http://farmerandfarmer.org/medicine/printable.html > > the nice thing about that oath is that it can just be added simply to > make people aware of it... *without* actually requiring that they take > it. > > anyway i have started a page here in order to coordinate ideas and the > actual proposal: > > http://rhombus-tech.net/proposed_best_practices/ > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jun 6 05:51:33 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 05:51:33 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 10:47 PM, John Luke Gibson wrote: > Alrightie~! > > Foremost, since "existing" free software and cultural works aren't > likely to be sold, I think a libre software standards organization > wouldn't certify individual works or pieces of code, so much as > projects as a whole including roles performed by non-developers indeed. > Version control is almost ubiquitously used for source code, to the > point it should hardly need mentioned; absolutely dead-wrong. it needs *absolutely* to be clearly defined. the practice of saying "well everyone does it so we don't need to take special note of it" is how, historically, utterly valuable knowledge has been lost through the ages. a good example is all the folk tunes of medieval times: *nobody knows them any more* because quotes everybody knew them quotes so NOBODY WROTE THEM DOWN. so no, john: it *is* critical that everything that's ubiquitous and quotes obvious quotes be formally documented. then, not least, you will discover that actually, everybody uses github "by default".... which, when you read (and take) the software engineer's hippocratic oath you find that it's very hard to honour that oath and use github at the same time. > however very rarely are > non-source project files, such as .blend files, collaboratively > designed this way. I don't think people are unwilling to use version > control in this way, rather they just don't think of it since most > artists aren't developers and art has been digitally designed for much > longer than version control systems have been easy to use. So I think > uploading files to repository and saving changes as commits, would be > a good 'non-developer' "best practice" to apply to a software > certification standard. if they're "developing" then by definition they *are* developers, whether they think of themselves that way or not. in the hippocratic oath (both the original and the engineering version i found) it mentions that both practices combine art *and* science. > Anyways, developer 'best practices'. > Having idle hands study and document code, particularly esoteric parts > or parts they, the contributors, are unfamiliar with (so they can > learn it*). Generally, the instinct we are taught from criticisms of > our artwork, is that 'if we can't do something well, it's best not to > do it at all', however with our version control systems generally the > opposite is much more likely true, leaving room also for the hopefully > soon to be colloquial: "if a task seems too easy, it is best leave it > for someone else more novice; if a task seems too difficult, it is > best to do it sloppily, so someone else won't have to do it start from > nothing". So I think doing the best we possibly can do to develop the > worst code and worst documentation we possibly can, (xD) is another > good developer 'best practice'. ok... there are two different definitions of "developer best practices". the above goes into detail on how an individual developer should best carry out the development process; the document that i would like to see written is one which helps people (covering both users *and* developers) to work as TEAMS. what INFRASTRUCTURE and general mind-set will help people to work together. not "as a developer we must apply Agile or other Methodology". that's not appropriate: we have no proof that Agile or other "Methodology" will be more effective than any other, and i don't believe it to be appropriate for us to even research that. > Most of us know it's not uncommon for very large projects to receive > access to proprietary source code under NDA, just to mod it**. we are automatically excluding advice to proprietary software groups, so this is not a concern. > Likewise libre software is often perceived as insufficient as-is, > however proprietary software can be close enough that it is more > practical. In these cases, we need to respect reality, however also > ensure all is carefully weighed. The biggest pitfall is looking at all > the forks, addons, and extensions, then also looking at what you would > like to do that one can't with proprietary software out of the box. > Whilest being careful not to berate preferences, looking at how > modifiable the base program is and what it could accomplish rather > than what it can accomplish, is an important thing to make sure both > project's developer's and non-developer's occasionally remember to do. > So, considering what we could do more proportionally with what we can > do, is an important developer and non-developer 'best practice', > especially since as least occasionally they'll make one of their > could-do'es someone else's can-do. i don't understand where you're going with this. what is the main point? > Another practice that kindof ties in with the other one, and an often > unsung aim of the GNU project as a whole, is make programming easier. to make *programming* easier or to make *collaboration* easier? > Occasionally, a project will have extra resources or > volunteers/contributors than their described roadmap warrants. Not > always is this obvious from the beginning when it does happen. In > fact, usually it isn't till the end that it becomes apparent. The > ideal would be say 'even if proprietary software is more practical, > use/extend free software for the benefit of everyone when you have the > resource', but the reality is very rarely will you know you have the > resources until it's far too late. Instead, a good programming > practice might be to use the extra resources to modify the language > itself or some api to make the code smaller. We all should know line > counting is a trap, but we should also know we are more likely to read > a pamphlet than a book. So, it should be a good developer 'best > practice' should be to use extra resources at the end to make your > code intuitive and concise, and to fork others so hopefully > adaptations to libraries and compilers that make your code more > concise and intuitive get upstream. again, i feel that it is not appropriate to tell people these kinds of things, as it would be a restriction on what they do and learn. counter-example: some projects *have* to have a large code-base, by definition of their goals and scope. > This is just a rough start, but I wanted to post it here and get > feedback before putting it on the wiki. wrong focus / direction, john. the first step *really is* to quite literally copy - verbatim - the gnu devel.html page and "generify" it. where it says "we recommend savannah" put instead "we recommend the use of a Libre Hosting Service which has a minimum criteria of an A, as defined by the FSF's Hosting Criteria". where it says "we recommend mailing lists on gnu.org" put instead "we recommend the use of software libre hosted mailing lists". a later revision should go into further detail as to *why* "announce", "users", "dev" etc. is recommended. etc. etc. this is a completely different focus from advising people on *coding methodologies*. > I really like the analogy of medicine to software development, > particularly the use of the Hippocratic Oath as a point of reference. > I was looking at the 'original' oath, and there is an interesting > intersection with the morals of free software. indeed there is.... but that is simply not understood by the majority of people associated with free software. you can usually tell who they are because they use the words "open" and "source". which is why i feel it should be part of the recommendations. again: it is one of those things which is never really discussed because those people who *do* understand it just... follow it (without talking about it) and that means that those people who *don't* understand get really *really* confused and misled. l. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 13:01:02 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 08:01:02 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > "well everyone does it so we don't need to take > special note of it" is how, historically, utterly valuable knowledge > has been lost through the ages. That's a very valid point. However I think the point of a standards organization should be to spread information about their standards that aren't widely or commonly known and it highly useful. Ultimately there will be some very new people looking for information, and for them knowing about the usefulness of version control would be important. Again, though, if only mundane things like that were taken on as a core tenets, I don't think anyone would take the organization seriously. > then, not least, you will discover that actually, everybody uses > github "by default".... which, when you read (and take) the software > engineer's hippocratic oath you find that it's very hard to honour > that oath and use github at the same time. I don't think there is much wrong the way github is designed, so much as it's economic model for sustaining itself. It requires closed source software development to survive. That's naughty. > if they're "developing" then by definition they *are* developers, > whether they think of themselves that way or not. in the hippocratic > oath (both the original and the engineering version i found) it > mentions that both practices combine art *and* science. We really don't want to throw around that label, it'll be controversial if we do. The overall point I was try to make in that clause is, 'everyone thinks to collaborate on source, but no one thinks to collaborate on assets'. I don't think many realize it's possible for 100+ people to collaborate on a single drawing using version control and effective curation. It'd be absurd, but it'd be possible. As it stands, most assets are designed entirely by a single person, because people don't realize the collaboration tools and methodologies out there. >> "if a task seems too easy, it is best leave it >> for someone else more novice; if a task seems too difficult, it is >> best to do it sloppily, so someone else won't have to do it start from >> nothing". So I think doing the best we possibly can do to develop the >> worst code and worst documentation we possibly can, (xD) is another >> good developer 'best practice'. > > ok... there are two different definitions of "developer best > practices". the above goes into detail on how an individual developer > should best carry out the development process; the document that i > would like to see written is one which helps people (covering both > users *and* developers) to work as TEAMS. what INFRASTRUCTURE and > general mind-set will help people to work together. > > not "as a developer we must apply Agile or other Methodology". that's > not appropriate: we have no proof that Agile or other "Methodology" > will be more effective than any other, and i don't believe it to be > appropriate for us to even research that. Hmm.. *searches 'Agile development methodology'* I agree. I always hated those cause they felt like a tight 'inside of the inside box' structure. What I'm suggesting here is Definitely a collaborative methodology and -I think- a pretty abstract and general one. Essentially the point is, in a large open development, odds are there will be people more senior and more novice to you. To develop the most difficult code 'for you' possible, we prioritize personal development over project development. I think that's a pretty solid general rule. If the code is really sincerely important, someone will clean up your mistakes and use your successes. Yes, I the principle is of focusing on the individual, but there's nothing more important to remind a collective to do. >> Most of us know it's not uncommon for very large projects to receive >> access to proprietary source code under NDA, just to mod it**. > > we are automatically excluding advice to proprietary software groups, > so this is not a concern. For one, I think that's problematic. There are some projects to advance humanity stuck in closed-development, sometimes for honorable not-profit-motivations. Take radar development for example. Or, AI development. The last one is a hot-button topic, but I think AI development has to be relegated to those careful to avoid AI hating us. For two, Some projects have a goal besides open source or profit. I really like Star Citizen*. They show us EVERYTHING, except their source. Obviously they can't because what they are trying to do, Requires modding closed source software. It's very open, even if it's very closed. If an organization like that wants to contribute to the development of some libre software they are borrowing, we should recognize them. Maybe if we buildup a strong rapport with them, they'll release their game into the public domain one day just to say 'thankz, for all the lulz'. * https://robertsspaceindustries.com/about-the-game >> [blah blah, about choosing between proprietary and free software] > > i don't understand where you're going with this. what is the main point? Most projects will be hardware projects and, like with your decision not to use kicad, there will be many incidences where open projects need to decide between modding-up open software or using proprietary software. Occasionally, the former is just not practical. A standards organization, would do best to make sure they weighed both possibilities realistically and didn't just assume one or the other was more practical. >> Another practice that kindof ties in with the other one, and an often >> unsung aim of the GNU project as a whole, is make programming easier. > > to make *programming* easier or to make *collaboration* easier? Both. Most languages today are pretty esoteric, even today. And, the problem isn't so much with the docs, as these languages were designed for people that already new another language equally esoteric, etc. I would think Lisp's resurgence (as well as developing Guile) is a demonstration of GNU trying to break away from that paradigm. >> [blah blah blah about making programming easier] > > again, i feel that it is not appropriate to tell people these kinds > of things, as it would be a restriction on what they do and learn. > counter-example: some projects *have* to have a large code-base, by > definition of their goals and scope. I recognize that intuitive isn't always concise, but often it is. I only mean concise when it means intuitive. If a projects roadmap demands a large code base that is highly-esoteric and unintuitive, then that exhibits fault in the underlying language. I'm not suggesting any project change to prioritize this. To the contrary, I think I was quite clear: a project should only dedicate 'extra' resources to this type of endeavor. >> This is just a rough start, but I wanted to post it here and get >> feedback before putting it on the wiki. > > wrong focus / direction, john. > > the first step *really is* to quite literally copy - verbatim - the > gnu devel.html page and "generify" it. No one will want to advice from an organization that bible thumps the same points, much less financially support them in exchange for doing so. I think it is important to develop universally acceptable principles (i.e. things people find interesting to hear, but not necessarily want to hear) which are useful. > where it says "we recommend savannah" put instead "we recommend the > use of a Libre Hosting Service which has a minimum criteria of an A, > as defined by the FSF's Hosting Criteria". Eh, 0-to-1. Redundancy is nice, but can be confusing. I think it would probably more effective to just let any libre hosting service which has criteria A call themselves savanna, but I don't think were a person stores their code should be a huge point of tension. Ultimately, in a 0-to-1 paradigm, we are trying to develop closer to perfection, rather than closer to more competitive. Having multiple types of libre hosting services is like having multiple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:POVFORK 'es. From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Tue Jun 6 14:47:29 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 09:47:29 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] revision control in the arts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170606134729.GA28160@topoi.pooq.com> On Mon, Jun 05, 2017 at 05:47:35PM -0400, John Luke Gibson wrote: > Alrightie~! > > Foremost, since "existing" free software and cultural works aren't > likely to be sold, I think a libre software standards organization > wouldn't certify individual works or pieces of code, so much as > projects as a whole including roles performed by non-developers > > Version control is almost ubiquitously used for source code, to the > point it should hardly need mentioned; however very rarely are > non-source project files, such as .blend files, collaboratively > designed this way. I don't think people are unwilling to use version > control in this way, rather they just don't think of it since most > artists aren't developers and art has been digitally designed for much > longer than version control systems have been easy to use. So I think > uploading files to repository and saving changes as commits, would be > a good 'non-developer' "best practice" to apply to a software > certification standard. A lot of file formats, especially those used by artists, are hostile to the essential 'merge' operation in version control. Even the current real standards for word processors (such as odt) are bad for this. They use compression, which has an effect like cryptographic hashing on ones efforts to distinguish change from background. Even the uncompressed .odf word processor format has this problem, being based on xml. If a merge operation sees enough similarity it guesses what the actual changes are. If it guesses wrong the merged file may have its bracket structure severely damaged, requirg manual repair. But users do not interact with their documents at the XML level, so they are completely lost. Why this isn't a problem with C is that programmers do interact with their code in a textual level, so they ar very familiar with the editing of brackets. For word processing, I think the only good solution is a document compiler, with the writer editing the source code. I know of nothing comparable for visual arts. -- hendrik From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jun 6 15:00:59 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:00:59 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] revision control in the arts? In-Reply-To: <20170606134729.GA28160@topoi.pooq.com> References: <20170606134729.GA28160@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 2:47 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > For word processing, I think the only good solution is a document > compiler, with the writer editing the source code. > > I know of nothing comparable for visual arts. there are two separate concepts here: revision control of non-text-based documents, and the relevance of "art" to science. the first is a well-known problem, for which things like "yodl", "tex" and other complex-document-formats-from-easy-text-based-generators already exist. another example: i wrote pyopenscadobj and am the de-facto maintainer of pyopenscad, because you can write python programs which generate SCAD files which in turn generates 3D models.... and the python programs can be checked into git revision control. can you check in .blend or .iges or .step files into git revision control? no you can't because they're a dog's dinner. for file formats which do *not* lend themselves to this technique, all i really have to say on the subject is: tough titty. find an alternative program and file-format... or just put up with the fact that your git repository becomes nothing more than a file store with zero ability to store or track "differences". the second, hendrik, you may have misunderstood why "art" was mentioned in the context of science and engineering. we are *not* discussing "traditional artistic subjects" such as painting, sculpting and so on. we are referring to (as does the hippocratic oath) the application of artistic *principles* to scientific endeavour, which is something that is, admittedly, quite hard to understand let alone actually do. some examples include: taking "intuitive" decisions in solving engineering problems; applying "creativity"; and other such things. these are *general principles* which are most commonly used in the "arts", and hippocrates was pointing out that when science does *not* apply them then science suffers. l. From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Tue Jun 6 15:20:42 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 10:20:42 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170606142042.GB28160@topoi.pooq.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 08:01:02AM -0400, John Luke Gibson wrote: > > Both. Most languages today are pretty esoteric, even today. And, the > problem isn't so much with the docs, as these languages were designed > for people that already new another language equally esoteric, etc. > > I would think Lisp's resurgence (as well as developing Guile) is a > demonstration of GNU trying to break away from that paradigm. Racket is a rather interesting variant of Scheme. Aside from having good tutorials and documentation, it explicitly allows mixed-language development. In fact, the first line of a Racket module usually states which language to use for the rest. And Racket has tools for defining alternative syntax and/or semantics. > > >> [blah blah blah about making programming easier] > > > > again, i feel that it is not appropriate to tell people these kinds > > of things, as it would be a restriction on what they do and learn. > > counter-example: some projects *have* to have a large code-base, by > > definition of their goals and scope. > > I recognize that intuitive isn't always concise, but often it is. > I only mean concise when it means intuitive. > If a projects roadmap demands a large code base that is > highly-esoteric and unintuitive, then that exhibits fault in the > underlying language. Racket's language-definition tool can be used to shorten notation within a large program, and also to define completely new languages. For example, one of the languages so implemented is Algol 60. Another is Scribble, a document compiler. Being based on Racket, it's possible to use arbitrary Scheme code in generating your document, should you choose to. -- hendrik > > I'm not suggesting any project change to prioritize this. To the > contrary, I think I was quite clear: a project should only dedicate > 'extra' resources to this type of endeavor. There's one case in which a project decided they needed a scripting language, and they chose Gambit, a Scheme dialect that compiles to C or C++. After they installed it, they discovered that it was often easier to add features in the scripting language than in the original C++ code. Then they disovered that fixing bugs could often be done by replacing buggy C++ code by Scheme code. After a few years, the codebase shrank from about 200,000 lines of code to about 30,000. (I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but they were of these orders of magnitude.) -- hendrik From eaterjolly at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 16:36:24 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 11:36:24 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] revision control in the arts? In-Reply-To: References: <20170606134729.GA28160@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: Hendrik: > A lot of file formats, especially those used by artists, are hostile > to the essential 'merge' operation in version control. A lapse on my part. I didn't think of that when I was typing that whole thing up. That makes it quite a bit difficult, as multiple forks can't be merged and one simply has to decide between them, then, if worthwhile, refactor the new version to include the merits of other forks. Okay, maybe not possible for 100+ collaborators xD On the bright side, it appears to be a problem that's been tackled before for blender: https://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?344037-Addon-Blender-Git-Versioning It would be interesting if there might be a way to convert blend files to python, since blender has heavy support of its python api. This problem appears to have been solved for gimp, under the radar: https://sites.google.com/site/httimchen/2011_imagesvn Luke: > the second, hendrik, you may have misunderstood why "art" was > mentioned in the context of science and engineering. we are *not* > discussing "traditional artistic subjects" such as painting, sculpting > and so on. > > we are referring to (as does the hippocratic oath) the application of > artistic *principles* to scientific endeavour, which is something that > is, admittedly, quite hard to understand let alone actually do. Naw, one of my tings definitely did mention CVS of art assets somewhere in dat confuddled mess xd From eaterjolly at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 16:41:49 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (John Luke Gibson) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 11:41:49 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: <20170606142042.GB28160@topoi.pooq.com> References: <20170606142042.GB28160@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: > After a few years, the codebase shrank from about 200,000 lines of > code to about 30,000. (I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but they > were of these orders of magnitude.) Dats bootiful (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧ On 6/6/17, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 08:01:02AM -0400, John Luke Gibson wrote: >> >> Both. Most languages today are pretty esoteric, even today. And, the >> problem isn't so much with the docs, as these languages were designed >> for people that already new another language equally esoteric, etc. >> >> I would think Lisp's resurgence (as well as developing Guile) is a >> demonstration of GNU trying to break away from that paradigm. > > Racket is a rather interesting variant of Scheme. Aside from having > good tutorials and documentation, it explicitly allows mixed-language > development. In fact, the first line of a Racket module usually > states which language to use for the rest. And Racket has tools > for defining alternative syntax and/or semantics. > >> >> >> [blah blah blah about making programming easier] >> > >> > again, i feel that it is not appropriate to tell people these kinds >> > of things, as it would be a restriction on what they do and learn. >> > counter-example: some projects *have* to have a large code-base, by >> > definition of their goals and scope. >> >> I recognize that intuitive isn't always concise, but often it is. >> I only mean concise when it means intuitive. >> If a projects roadmap demands a large code base that is >> highly-esoteric and unintuitive, then that exhibits fault in the >> underlying language. > > Racket's language-definition tool can be used to shorten notation > within a large program, and also to define completely new languages. > > For example, one of the languages so implemented is Algol 60. > > Another is Scribble, a document compiler. Being based on Racket, it's > possible to use arbitrary Scheme code in generating your document, > should you choose to. > > -- hendrik > >> >> I'm not suggesting any project change to prioritize this. To the >> contrary, I think I was quite clear: a project should only dedicate >> 'extra' resources to this type of endeavor. > > There's one case in which a project decided they needed a scripting > language, and they chose Gambit, a Scheme dialect that compiles to C > or C++. > > After they installed it, they discovered that it was often easier to > add features in the scripting language than in the original C++ code. > > Then they disovered that fixing bugs could often be done by replacing > buggy C++ code by Scheme code. > > After a few years, the codebase shrank from about 200,000 lines of > code to about 30,000. (I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but they > were of these orders of magnitude.) > > -- hendrik > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jun 6 17:43:46 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:43:46 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] revision control in the arts? In-Reply-To: References: <20170606134729.GA28160@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 4:36 PM, John Luke Gibson wrote: >> we are referring to (as does the hippocratic oath) the application of >> artistic *principles* to scientific endeavour, which is something that >> is, admittedly, quite hard to understand let alone actually do. > > Naw, one of my tings definitely did mention CVS of art assets > somewhere in dat confuddled mess xd that is still completely out-of-scope for the discussion. we are not here to solve the problem of version control for artists or sculptors. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jun 6 18:47:48 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 18:47:48 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 1:01 PM, John Luke Gibson wrote: >> "well everyone does it so we don't need to take >> special note of it" is how, historically, utterly valuable knowledge >> has been lost through the ages. > > That's a very valid point. However I think the point of a standards > organization should be to spread information about their standards > that aren't widely or commonly known and it highly useful. Ultimately > there will be some very new people looking for information, and for > them knowing about the usefulness of version control would be > important. Again, though, if only mundane things like that were taken > on as a core tenets, I don't think anyone would take the organization > seriously. > >> then, not least, you will discover that actually, everybody uses >> github "by default".... which, when you read (and take) the software >> engineer's hippocratic oath you find that it's very hard to honour >> that oath and use github at the same time. > > I don't think there is much wrong the way github is designed, so much > as it's ... you mean the word "its", not the two words "it" and "is" which are abbreviated as "it apostrophe s". > economic model for sustaining itself. It requires closed > source software development to survive. That's naughty. it does deeper than that, in a very seductive and insidious way. what is the primary focus - what does github drive people to do, that distinguishes it from sourceforge, savannah, alioth, codeforge and other group collaboration systems? > >> if they're "developing" then by definition they *are* developers, >> whether they think of themselves that way or not. in the hippocratic >> oath (both the original and the engineering version i found) it >> mentions that both practices combine art *and* science. > > We really don't want to throw around that label, what ambiguous concept are you referring to with the word "that" which has not been made explicitly clear? there are about 40 words in the paragraph that you are referring to: i have no idea which one the word "that" refers to. > Essentially the point is, in a large open development, odds are there > will be people more senior and more novice to you. To develop the most > difficult code 'for you' possible, we prioritize personal development > over project development. I think that's a pretty solid general rule. > If the code is really sincerely important, someone will clean up your > mistakes and use your successes. not if they are there to further their own personal agenda because there is no "Charter" to keep them goal-focussed, they won't. there are a number of large software libre projects where individuals have, over time, used their technical expertise to become the most vicious, horrible, deceptive bullies you will ever encounter in a technical environment. their peers become *so afraid* to do something about it that these people *remain* in power, abusing others whenever the opportunity presents itself. this is something that i have encountered not just once but *multiple* times, in several extremely high-profile strategic software libre projects. >>> Most of us know it's not uncommon for very large projects to receive >>> access to proprietary source code under NDA, just to mod it**. >> >> we are automatically excluding advice to proprietary software groups, >> so this is not a concern. > > For one, > I think that's problematic. There are some projects to advance > humanity stuck in closed-development, sometimes for honorable > not-profit-motivations. Take radar development for example. Or, AI > development. The last one is a hot-button topic, but I think AI > development has to be relegated to those careful to avoid AI hating > us. true. however - and i am applying the "Bill of Ethics" here - the Bill of Ethics is very clear as to what to do in these situations. "Creativity" is defined as "resources times intelligence". therefore, if someone is using Creativity for unethical purposes (where in this case we *know* that proprietary software is unethical.... let's not argue about that), then there are two options to ETHICALLY undermine their unethical objective: (1) reduce their access to resources (2) reduce their access to intelligence enhancement. now, in the process of writing a standard, we do not have the means to (directly) reduce the amount of resources that unethical proprietary software teams have access to, but we *can* reduce their access to intelligence enhancement... by *SPECIFICALLY* designing the standard so that it targets ETHICAL software development, and that means LIBRE SOFTWARE ONLY. i am NOT going to aid or assist unethical practices - period, luke. i will NOT be involved in ANY WAY in the development of a standard which could be utilised for the advancement, augmentation, acceleration or improvement of unethical software development practices, and that really is the end of the matter. > * https://robertsspaceindustries.com/about-the-game >>> [blah blah, about choosing between proprietary and free software] >> >> i don't understand where you're going with this. what is the main point? > > Most projects will be hardware projects and, like with your decision > not to use kicad, that's mainly to do with the fact that it's shit software. sadly, it's only when you've utilised well-written proprietary software that you realise quite how hostile kicad actually is to getting the job done. i'm not very happy about that, but it turns out that i am not the only person to have tried. > there will be many incidences where open projects > need to decide between modding-up open software or using proprietary > software. Occasionally, the former is just not practical. > > A standards organization, would do best to make sure they weighed both > possibilities realistically and didn't just assume one or the other > was more practical. no. sorry. i cannot be involved in anything which is unethical. that is ABSOLUTE and non-negotiable. the consequences for me to be involved in anything that is unethical are too disastrous to contemplate. writing a high-profile standard (which is to be published by the FSF) that helps proprietary software to improve its success would be totally unethical. >> again, i feel that it is not appropriate to tell people these kinds >> of things, as it would be a restriction on what they do and learn. >> counter-example: some projects *have* to have a large code-base, by >> definition of their goals and scope. > > I recognize that intuitive isn't always concise, but often it is. > I only mean concise when it means intuitive. > If a projects roadmap demands a large code base that is > highly-esoteric and unintuitive, then that exhibits fault in the > underlying language. no it does not. certain tasks *require* specific languages. for example: the linux kernel *requires* that you use assembler and c. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES is c++ permitted to be utilised. likewise, python is also developed in c. you can look up how pypy has been getting on, to find out how unsuccessful it was to attempt to implement python in anything other than c. also you can look up the efforts by the samba team to abandon c and to try to write parts of samba 4 in python. this was also a spectacular and long-drawn-out failure. in the case of samba, it has to be realised that samba is an amalgamation of something like over TEN different network protocols, at least FOUR separate and distinct RPC mechanisms, and over FORTY separate and distinct inter-related services! the complexity of the endeavour is just... astounding. when samba 4 was first announced i thought it was a joke. they intended to implement not only the MSRPC services, but also to implement their own Kerberos Server and LDAP server. what the FUCK?? Heimdal is a QUARTER of a MILLION lines of code on its own. openldap is likewise similarly large... and samba is probably getting on for HALF a million lines of code WITHOUT these projects added to it! they're completely out of their MINDS if they think that's going to work... or be accepted by sysadmins... and guess what? 10 years later they still hadn't finished, and 15 years later they'd driven pretty much every single large Enterprise (that had deployed samba for years) right back to Windows NT Server! the reason i am mentioning the example of Samba is because despite following what is known to be "best software libre hosting practices", they DO NOT HAVE A CHARTER and the developers *certainly* do not sign up to the Software Engineer's variant of the Hippocratic Oath. there is more, but i will relay that another time. >>> This is just a rough start, but I wanted to post it here and get >>> feedback before putting it on the wiki. >> >> wrong focus / direction, john. >> >> the first step *really is* to quite literally copy - verbatim - the >> gnu devel.html page and "generify" it. > > No one will want to advice from an organization that bible thumps the > same points, much less financially support them in exchange for doing > so. do you understand why those software development practices (with the addition of a Charter) listed on the gnu devel page are so effective? ok let's go over it. what are the defining (common) characteristics of the following high-profile long-running strategic free software projects, and, of the superset of those combined characteristics, which projects LACK those characteristics? * Samba * Wine * ReactOS * Python * Perl * Exim4 * sendmail * Linux Kernel * GNU Projects (as defined by that devel.html page) * Webkit * Blink * Firefox * Debian * Ubuntu * Slackware * systemd * mysqldb * mariadb * openoffice * libreoffice * X11 * Xorg * Kerberos * Heimdal * OpenLDAP make a list of all the things that those projects have in common, then, after making that list, identify the things on that list which individual projects *do not* have. i will then provide you with some illustrations of events that have occurred within those teams which have been extremely detrimental to the users of those packages. we will then cross-reference the things that are MISSING from those projects with the detrimental consequences, to see if there is any correlation. if you can think of any other long-standing high-profile projects which should be on that list, feel free to add them. >> where it says "we recommend savannah" put instead "we recommend the >> use of a Libre Hosting Service which has a minimum criteria of an A, >> as defined by the FSF's Hosting Criteria". > > Eh, 0-to-1. i don't understand this colloquial turn of phrase. anyway it is not important: going through the list above is much more important. > I don't think were a > person stores their code should be a huge point of tension. i know you don't. so i therefore need to walk you through the process of understanding why it is, in fact, one of *the* most important factors (in amongst many of roughly equal priority). going through that list, above, will help to do that. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jun 6 22:22:16 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 22:22:16 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> Message-ID: please do distribute to interested parties / lists, TDE (aka KDE 3.5) is strategically quite important as it's one of the remaining comprehensive desktop environments that is also light-weight and relevant. l. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Timothy Pearson Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 7:19 PM Subject: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser To: trinity-devel at lists.pearsoncomputing.net -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA224 All, It's that time of year again! As we look toward the release of Debian Stretch and another version of TDE, I'd like to ask for your continued support to help keep TDE online. This year I'm going to try something new. If you donate $40 to TDE [1], I will allow 2 months access to the nightly build repositories that now include Debian Stretch and Raspbian Jessie. Additionally, I'd like those who donate at this level to nominate two bugs that I will personally look into (excepting those relating to support for Wayland, Qt4/Qt5, or Webkit). This way your donations have a direct and positive effect on TDE itself, and TDE can continue to exist in its current form. Personally I would suggest the LibreOffice integration bug or possibly an update of the GTK3 theme engine to fix the rendering bugs as potential candidates, but in the end it's up to you! A full listing of open bugs is available here: http://bugs.trinitydesktop.org/buglist.cgi?bug_status=__open__&content=&no_redirect=1&order=Importance&product=&query_format=specific As always, thank you for your support and continued feedback -- we couldn't develop TDE without it! Tim [1] https://trinitydesktop.org/donate.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iFYEARELAAYFAlj3qjAACgkQLaxZSoRZrGEhXwDcDpHwUy8Z77OEEKHrdVMSqlcW 6uT+v3pMwqNAXQDeM9WnwPpziYGFQIsfb5I6DiVBLNsZaBL2tab+yw== =FFOS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-devel-unsubscribe at lists.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-devel-help at lists.pearsoncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting From vkontogpls at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 22:42:10 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 00:42:10 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > please do distribute to interested parties / lists, TDE (aka KDE 3.5) > is strategically quite important as it's one of the remaining > comprehensive desktop environments that is also light-weight and > relevant. > > l. I don't understand the point of this DE at all. DEs like Mate and Cinnamon have the exact same goal of offering a traditional and familiar desktop but with newer backends. Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better ? From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jun 6 22:50:20 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 22:50:20 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:42 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > >> please do distribute to interested parties / lists, TDE (aka KDE 3.5) >> is strategically quite important as it's one of the remaining >> comprehensive desktop environments that is also light-weight and >> relevant. >> >> l. > > > I don't understand the point of this DE at all. DEs like Mate and Cinnamon > have the exact same goal of offering a traditional and familiar desktop but > with newer backends. Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better > ? they're not based on gnome (which in turn is based on GTK). that alone is good enough reason. the TDE maintainers have become the de-facto maintainers of qt3. qt3 is the only version of qt which is not bloated beyond sanity. if it wasn't for TDE, qt3 would have long ago become abandonware. there are many other reasons but these are the ones that i can immediately think of. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 22:55:47 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 17:55:47 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> Message-ID: Luke, dare I ask your opinion on XFCE, which is my preferred DE...? (MATE is my second choice, followed by... oddly enough, that new Budgie thing.) From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Tue Jun 6 23:17:02 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 18:17:02 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> Message-ID: <20170606221702.GA8729@topoi.pooq.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 10:50:20PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:42 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> wrote: > > > >> please do distribute to interested parties / lists, TDE (aka KDE 3.5) > >> is strategically quite important as it's one of the remaining > >> comprehensive desktop environments that is also light-weight and > >> relevant. > >> > >> l. > > > > > > I don't understand the point of this DE at all. DEs like Mate and Cinnamon > > have the exact same goal of offering a traditional and familiar desktop but > > with newer backends. Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better > > ? > > they're not based on gnome (which in turn is based on GTK). that > alone is good enough reason. the TDE maintainers have become the > de-facto maintainers of qt3. qt3 is the only version of qt which is > not bloated beyond sanity. if it wasn't for TDE, qt3 would have long > ago become abandonware. > > there are many other reasons but these are the ones that i can > immediately think of. Just wondering ... are they infested with systemd? dbus? pulseaudio? -- hendrik k From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jun 6 23:33:04 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 23:33:04 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Luke, dare I ask your opinion on XFCE, which is my preferred DE...? (MATE > is my second choice, followed by... oddly enough, that new Budgie thing.) phil introduced xfce to me a long time ago, i quite like its simplicity and the fact that they leverage the lower-level services of gnome but in a non-over-burdensome way. it's what i'll be putting onto the eoma68-a20 cards by default. l. From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Tue Jun 6 23:36:52 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 18:36:52 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> Message-ID: <20170606223652.GA10841@topoi.pooq.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 11:33:04PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Christopher Havel > wrote: > > Luke, dare I ask your opinion on XFCE, which is my preferred DE...? (MATE > > is my second choice, followed by... oddly enough, that new Budgie thing.) > > phil introduced xfce to me a long time ago, i quite like its > simplicity and the fact that they leverage the lower-level services of > gnome but in a non-over-burdensome way. it's what i'll be putting > onto the eoma68-a20 cards by default. I'm using xfce as my main desktop. It works. -- hendrik From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jun 6 23:37:54 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 23:37:54 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: <20170606221702.GA8729@topoi.pooq.com> References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170606221702.GA8729@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 11:17 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: >> there are many other reasons but these are the ones that i can >> immediately think of. > > Just wondering ... are they infested with systemd? no. > dbus? KDE has its own RPC mechanism called DCOP, which, famously, was hacked together in about 20 minutes. KDE 3 predates d-bus by quite some years so it was never integrated in. > pulseaudio? again, KDE3 predates pulseaudio so it never had pulseaudio as a critical dependency. basically for all the insidious fuck-ups that have been made (and by a funny coincidence *entirely* funded primarily by redhat), KDE3 side-steps absolutely all of them. it is also not insignificant that KDE3 is primarily a *European* endeavour. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 23:39:49 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 18:39:49 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: <20170606223652.GA10841@topoi.pooq.com> References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170606223652.GA10841@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: Yaaaaaaaay I didn't get excoriated for my choice. I love how configurable it is. Then again, I am an artist... we're persnickety :P Luke: your thoughts, if any, on that new Budgie desktop environment? I tried it, it's not very configurable (yet?) and it doesn't work with the USB touchpad mouse on my homemade laptop (well, OK, it does on the lock screen but not once you're logged in, weird), but it's sort of attractive and I *almost* like the simplicity of it. (It's a *little* too simple for me, right now.) They've even got an official Ubuntu flavor, now -- I realize that's not exactly a glowing recommendation in these parts; I'm mentioning it entirely because of what it means in terms of popularity amongst the general userbase. Budgie might be one to "stick a pin in" as one of the talking heads on my TV would say... I think it's a potential rising star. On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 11:33:04PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Christopher Havel > > wrote: > > > Luke, dare I ask your opinion on XFCE, which is my preferred DE...? > (MATE > > > is my second choice, followed by... oddly enough, that new Budgie > thing.) > > > > phil introduced xfce to me a long time ago, i quite like its > > simplicity and the fact that they leverage the lower-level services of > > gnome but in a non-over-burdensome way. it's what i'll be putting > > onto the eoma68-a20 cards by default. > > I'm using xfce as my main desktop. It works. > > -- hendrik > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From themuso at themuso.com Wed Jun 7 00:00:13 2017 From: themuso at themuso.com (Luke Yelavich) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 09:00:13 +1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170606223652.GA10841@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <20170606230013.GA5449@buffalo.yelavich.home> On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 08:39:49AM AEST, Christopher Havel wrote: > Luke: your thoughts, if any, on that new Budgie desktop environment? I > tried it, it's not very configurable (yet?) and it doesn't work with the > USB touchpad mouse on my homemade laptop (well, OK, it does on the lock > screen but not once you're logged in, weird), but it's sort of attractive > and I *almost* like the simplicity of it. (It's a *little* too simple for > me, right now.) They've even got an official Ubuntu flavor, now -- I > realize that's not exactly a glowing recommendation in these parts; I'm > mentioning it entirely because of what it means in terms of popularity > amongst the general userbase. Budgie might be one to "stick a pin in" as > one of the talking heads on my TV would say... I think it's a potential > rising star. I read recently that there are plans to move to using Qt5 going forward too, so make of that what you will. Luke From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 00:08:58 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 19:08:58 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: <20170606230013.GA5449@buffalo.yelavich.home> References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170606223652.GA10841@topoi.pooq.com> <20170606230013.GA5449@buffalo.yelavich.home> Message-ID: Forgive the one-time topposting, please; I'm on a phone for the moment and phone Gmail, being different from webclient Gmail, is not friendly to my customary post style. *ahem* I'm really not familiar with what Qt and GDK actually are, TBH. I believe my understanding is correct that they are some sort of building-block type systems (scripting languages, if I had to guess), such that WMs and DEs can be made from Qt or GDK "parts"... but that's as far as I go. On Jun 6, 2017 7:00 PM, "Luke Yelavich" wrote: > On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 08:39:49AM AEST, Christopher Havel wrote: > > Luke: your thoughts, if any, on that new Budgie desktop environment? I > > tried it, it's not very configurable (yet?) and it doesn't work with the > > USB touchpad mouse on my homemade laptop (well, OK, it does on the lock > > screen but not once you're logged in, weird), but it's sort of attractive > > and I *almost* like the simplicity of it. (It's a *little* too simple for > > me, right now.) They've even got an official Ubuntu flavor, now -- I > > realize that's not exactly a glowing recommendation in these parts; I'm > > mentioning it entirely because of what it means in terms of popularity > > amongst the general userbase. Budgie might be one to "stick a pin in" as > > one of the talking heads on my TV would say... I think it's a potential > > rising star. > > I read recently that there are plans to move to using Qt5 going > forward too, so make of that what you will. > > Luke > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Wed Jun 7 01:54:19 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 20:54:19 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170606223652.GA10841@topoi.pooq.com> <20170606230013.GA5449@buffalo.yelavich.home> Message-ID: <20170607005419.GB12683@topoi.pooq.com> On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 07:08:58PM -0400, Christopher Havel wrote: > Forgive the one-time topposting, please; I'm on a phone for the moment and > phone Gmail, being different from webclient Gmail, is not friendly to my > customary post style. > > *ahem* > > I'm really not familiar with what Qt and GDK actually are, TBH. I believe > my understanding is correct that they are some sort of building-block type > systems (scripting languages, if I had to guess), such that WMs and DEs can > be made from Qt or GDK "parts"... but that's as far as I go. GDK is the Gimp Drawing Kit, invented so that the GIMP could have windows and menus and the like. It turned out to be useful for things other tha Gnu's Image Manipulation Program, and so people built all sorts of stuff on top of it. Including simple and bloated desktop environments. -- hendrik From allanitomwesh at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 07:10:29 2017 From: allanitomwesh at gmail.com (Allan Mwenda) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 09:10:29 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Proprietary Free Android Message-ID: https://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=iMX6-Buffer-Modifiers-Work Found this lovely article on phoronix. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 09:26:39 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:26:39 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170606223652.GA10841@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Christopher Havel wrote: > > Luke: your thoughts, if any, on that new Budgie desktop environment? I > tried it, it's not very configurable (yet?) and it doesn't work with the > USB touchpad mouse on my homemade laptop (well, OK, it does on the lock > screen but not once you're logged in, weird), but it's sort of attractive > and I *almost* like the simplicity of it. (It's a *little* too simple for > me, right now.) They've even got an official Ubuntu flavor, now -- I > realize that's not exactly a glowing recommendation in these parts; I'm > mentioning it entirely because of what it means in terms of popularity > amongst the general userbase. Budgie might be one to "stick a pin in" as > one of the talking heads on my TV would say... I think it's a potential > rising star. > > I love the fact that they have an Ubuntu version. The DE is completely distro-agnostic unlike things like Cinnamon for example. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat Jun 10 16:54:46 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 11:54:46 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXwy65d_tu8 It was very informative. A lot of the technical matter I did not understand. Can you explain: 23.04 The 2 lowermost boxes? What is a stepper? What is fuse? 25.15 The 4 lowermost boxes? 27.35 It appears there is money. 31.21 Alex Bradbury has said, it is difficult to verify, you get the hardware, you were told, you would get. 46.31 I agree. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat Jun 10 17:03:10 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:03:10 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to acceptapccard Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Christopher Havel Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to acceptapccard Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 16:17:45 -0400 > Respectfully, if you can't understand the protocol, you're out of your > depth and need to tackle something simpler and build up to this. Take the > scenic route, it will reward you better. Trust me -- I speak from > experience on this -- you'll wind up with a half-completed project that > doesn't work and you don't know why. I have a dozen or so of those in my > past. > It is not a big matter to me. I do not know to do any of it. I ask around. If I get easy to understand low priced solutions, I take advantage of them. > As for the Teensy... yes, one for mouse, one for keyboard. Use a touch > panel for a small LCD for the touchscreen. There's really no way to combine > them without getting into proprietary chips from eg Holtek -- and since > those chips are proprietary and therefore expensive and hard to get, you're > thankful that you can use a pair of Teensies ;) About the battery. If I can find an usb power bank having the right specifications, I could then use the power bank to power the computer and if I wanted to be able to charge the battery and have the computer turned on at the same time, I could get a charger with 2 usb connectors? > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From nick at internetmachines.co.uk Sat Jun 10 20:13:16 2017 From: nick at internetmachines.co.uk (Nick Hardiman) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 20:13:16 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 card news Message-ID: Where should I look for news about EOMA68 card production? http://rhombus-tech.net/ home is out of date. https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates has May’s update about 3D printing, I guess for the micro-desktop and laptop. http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/ has plenty of threads, mainly kicking ideas around. Thanks, Nick From njansen1 at gmail.com Sun Jun 11 16:07:56 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 11:07:56 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 11:54 AM, wrote: > It was very informative. A lot of the technical matter I did not understand. This was a GREAT talk. Thanks for the link. > Can you explain: > 23.04 The 2 lowermost boxes? 1) PDK / Foundries. The factories in which the chips are made in. They're not open. They're proprietary and there's a implication of trust. 2) Equipment / Raw Materials. The equipment that makes the chips and the raw materials that go into the chips. All a very cloudy and and murky area that is not open, and very proprietary. He's basically saying that those that want *100%* open source hardware would require infinite recursion down to the raw components, which is impossible. That's the whole point of the talk. The 'impedance mismatch' thing is a sort of metaphor to describe the unrealistic expectations of those idealists that want 100% open source hardware. He's saying it cannot happen today. And BTW I've met Bunnie on several occasions, he's legit, and you can trust what he's saying to be technically correct. He's the real deal. > What is a stepper? A stepper motor. That is, do you trust the motors that move the machines that made the integrated circuits? > What is fuse? See this link: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/1262/what-are-atmel-fuses > 25.15 The 4 lowermost boxes? * BIOS * Firmware * Hidden / fused silicon blocks - Blocks of silicon on the chip that aren't usually turned on, but are there. Lots of big vendors are doing this now: Intel, AMD, Nvidia, and it's anyone's guess as to what their real purpose is. That leads to conspiracy theories, as Bunnie said. This is a problem because if you put a chip like this into an open source laptop, it begs the question of what would happen if something turned on that section and started execution code from it? Nobody will know until (A) documentation is leaked from the company or (B) someone reverse engineers it. Basically if you use anything application processor chip made in the last 5-10 years, you probably have some hidden / fused silicon blocks doing god knows what. * Pre-boot microcode - Microcode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcode) that executes BEFORE your computer boots. This is a big deal, because everything that happens after this point can be considered suspect. (similar to how a boot virus would spread because it executes first). * IP industry practices - Intellectual property used by silicon manufacturers that are not open. What he's saying is, say that you're a silicon vendor and you just bought a intellectual property from ARM to make an ARM chip. They're giving you HDL (hardware description language) and netlists (a large list of the connections to be made in the die), and guess what, they gave them to you encrypted so that their intellectual property is safe. You (the guy that runs a third party chip factory) cannot review or inspect the intellectual property that ARM gave you. The point here is that unless you're using an open source (RISC-V, etc) core, then using an ARM isn't really 100% open source hardware. * Mask trojans & glitches - These are malicious things in the CPU die itself, that even if you were looking at the silicon die under a microscope and studying it, you'd still completely miss it. Very nasty but they exist. Hackaday.com has a lot of interesting articles that break these sort of things down in layman's terms. Very interesting. Basically because these exist, there's no way to know that you are really executing what you think you are executing unless you built the foundry and supervised the chips being made, and analyzed everything that went into the manufacture of them. It's a trust problem. These are all highly complex subjects that hardware engineers like Bunnie deal with a lot, and other (I'll say idealist) software guys probably have never thought of. They're important in that when you realize that they're there, you will then understand how silly wanting 100% open hardware really is. It's a huge problem that hardly anybody is trying to fix. Recently the 6502 was completely dissected and recreated, so that's one of the only fully documented (and I'd say fully trusted) cores out there today. And that was made probably before I was born. Everything since that should be assumed to be compromised and < 100% open. Oh, and even then, the 6502 would have to hook up to OTHER chips like flash, RAM, and whatever generates the video and handles the peripherals. Those have not been completely dissected, and could be suspect. Do you see what Bunnie means now? That's the impedance mismatch. P.S. my apologies to LKCL and others, I don't have a plain text email client. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 11 18:28:27 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 18:28:27 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Neil Jansen wrote: > P.S. my apologies to LKCL and others, I don't have a plain text email > client. i've enabled attachment-stripping and automatic HTML-to-plaintext conversion: it seems to be working well except in the circumstances where people use html-only-and-attachment-only mail clients. l. From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Sun Jun 11 21:31:10 2017 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 10:31:10 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet to acceptapccard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/06/17 06:03, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > About the battery. If I can find an usb power bank having the right > specifications, I could then use the power bank to power the > computer and if I wanted to be able to charge the battery and > have the computer turned on at the same time, I could get > a charger with 2 usb connectors? With a power bank this might work, because they (AFAIK) all have their charging circuitry inside the power bank and take a straight-up voltage source to charge. It won't make too much difference how you connect them as long as you have adequate gauge wires for all connections. If you're dealing with Li-ion cells, it's not recommended. It has to do with how Li-ion charging works. In short the charge schedule (most notable in a "fast" charge, meaning anything less than 5 hours or so) is constant current at a rate the battery can handle to voltage, and then constant voltage as the current tapers off to nearly nothing. The upshot of this is that trying to power a device with the battery/charger combo while charging the battery will confuse any decent charger (and if it isn't a decent charger you SHOULD NOT use it). The only way around this is a charge controller designed for such use that has three sets of terminals. One for a source, one for battery, and one for load. The charge controller is then able to distinguish the load from the battery charge current and charge it intelligently. Tor -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ 808-828-1107 GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sun Jun 11 21:38:04 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 16:38:04 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Neil Jansen Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 11:07:56 -0400 Thank you for the information. I have watched a rutkowska video on how complicated intel's management features are. Difficult. > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 11:54 AM, wrote: > > > It was very informative. A lot of the technical matter I did not > understand. > > This was a GREAT talk. Thanks for the link. > > > Can you explain: > > 23.04 The 2 lowermost boxes? > > 1) PDK / Foundries. The factories in which the chips are made in. They're > not open. They're proprietary and there's a implication of trust. > 2) Equipment / Raw Materials. The equipment that makes the chips and the > raw materials that go into the chips. All a very cloudy and and murky area > that is not open, and very proprietary. > > He's basically saying that those that want *100%* open source hardware > would require infinite recursion down to the raw components, which is > impossible. That's the whole point of the talk. The 'impedance mismatch' > thing is a sort of metaphor to describe the unrealistic expectations of > those idealists that want 100% open source hardware. He's saying it cannot > happen today. And BTW I've met Bunnie on several occasions, he's legit, > and you can trust what he's saying to be technically correct. He's the > real deal. > > > What is a stepper? > > A stepper motor. That is, do you trust the motors that move the machines > that made the integrated circuits? > > > What is fuse? > > See this link: > https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/1262/what-are-atmel-fuses > > > > 25.15 The 4 lowermost boxes? > > * BIOS > * Firmware > * Hidden / fused silicon blocks - Blocks of silicon on the chip that aren't > usually turned on, but are there. Lots of big vendors are doing this now: > Intel, AMD, Nvidia, and it's anyone's guess as to what their real purpose > is. That leads to conspiracy theories, as Bunnie said. This is a problem > because if you put a chip like this into an open source laptop, it begs the > question of what would happen if something turned on that section and > started execution code from it? Nobody will know until (A) documentation > is leaked from the company or (B) someone reverse engineers it. Basically > if you use anything application processor chip made in the last 5-10 years, > you probably have some hidden / fused silicon blocks doing god knows what. > * Pre-boot microcode - Microcode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcode) > that executes BEFORE your computer boots. This is a big deal, because > everything that happens after this point can be considered suspect. > (similar to how a boot virus would spread because it executes first). > * IP industry practices - Intellectual property used by silicon > manufacturers that are not open. What he's saying is, say that you're a > silicon vendor and you just bought a intellectual property from ARM to make > an ARM chip. They're giving you HDL (hardware description language) and > netlists (a large list of the connections to be made in the die), and guess > what, they gave them to you encrypted so that their intellectual property > is safe. You (the guy that runs a third party chip factory) cannot review > or inspect the intellectual property that ARM gave you. The point here is > that unless you're using an open source (RISC-V, etc) core, then using an > ARM isn't really 100% open source hardware. > * Mask trojans & glitches - These are malicious things in the CPU die > itself, that even if you were looking at the silicon die under a microscope > and studying it, you'd still completely miss it. Very nasty but they Remarkable that you cannot do a verification using a microscope. > exist. Hackaday.com has a lot of interesting articles that break these > sort of things down in layman's terms. Very interesting. Basically > because these exist, there's no way to know that you are really executing > what you think you are executing unless you built the foundry and > supervised the chips being made, and analyzed everything that went into the > manufacture of them. It's a trust problem. > > These are all highly complex subjects that hardware engineers like Bunnie > deal with a lot, and other (I'll say idealist) software guys probably have > never thought of. They're important in that when you realize that they're > there, you will then understand how silly wanting 100% open hardware really > is. It's a huge problem that hardly anybody is trying to fix. > > > Recently the 6502 was completely dissected and recreated, so that's one of > the only fully documented (and I'd say fully trusted) cores out there > today. And that was made probably before I was born. Everything since > that should be assumed to be compromised and < 100% open. Oh, and even > then, the 6502 would have to hook up to OTHER chips like flash, RAM, and > whatever generates the video and handles the peripherals. Those have not > been completely dissected, and could be suspect. Do you see what Bunnie > means now? That's the impedance mismatch. > > We should have libre software hdds and ram. > P.S. my apologies to LKCL and others, I don't have a plain text email > client. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From njansen1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 12 00:51:27 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 19:51:27 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > i've enabled attachment-stripping and automatic HTML-to-plaintext > conversion: it seems to be working well except in the circumstances > where people use html-only-and-attachment-only mail clients. Are mine showing up OK then, or no? I'm using the little button in the google webmail that strips all formatting, however I assume that it's still being sent as HTML (albeit HTML that looks good when stripped of formatting). From njansen1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 12 01:02:30 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 20:02:30 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 4:38 PM, wrote: > Thank you for the information. > I have watched a rutkowska video on how complicated > intel's management features are. > Difficult. That's why I'm here, lol. The Intel stuff is getting bad enough that it has me wondering what I can do for the open source hardware world. Moving to ARM via EOMA68 is a good near-term solution, but even that's not going to be 100% trustable at lest by bunnie's standards in the lecture. Something like RISC-V has the potential to get there, but as he pointed out, even that's not completely open. I think right now the important thing is to just be an early adopter of this stuff to show that the market's there. bunnie broke the demographics down pretty well, there's definitely money to be made. Back to Intel though. It makes me want to jump on eBay and pick up some older vintage Intel CPU's that didn't have the management features, but obviously there's no way to know if those aren't blown wide open by other means. Man, very interesting times we live in. > Remarkable that you cannot do a verification using a microscope. You can do exactly this, and it'll get you to maybe 99% of the way there. Companies like ChipWorks do exactly this for money. Others do it for hobby (see: http://www.visual6502.org/, http://siliconpr0n.org/, https://zeptobars.com/en/, http://www.righto.com/). It can often get great results. bunnie was playing devils advocate by saying even if you did this, there are still things that can be present but in an obfuscated manner, that could be malicious or careless. This doesn't really mean to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Having a reverse engineered CPU with a small possibility of shenanigans is still better than having a 100% proprietary CPU or a 50% proprietary CPU. Security through obscurity and all that. > We should have libre software hdds and ram. Can you elaborate on that a bit? I don't understand what you mean. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jun 12 01:26:03 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 01:26:03 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:02 AM, Neil Jansen wrote: > results. bunnie was playing devils advocate by saying even if you did > this, there are still things that can be present but in an obfuscated > manner, that could be malicious or careless. there was a research paper a few years back which outlined that it would only take about 3,000 gates to compromise a processor (easily enough to implement a full RISC CPU). that's about a million times less than what is in the current intel processors. the point of the exercise was to illustrate how pointless it is do perform reverse-engineering of modern CPUs, given that the review process would be insanely complex and would almost certainly miss such obfuscated / hidden backdoors. this is why both the chinese and the russian governments now design and make their own CPUs. in the case of china that's FROM SCRATCH. and using only trusted foundries. l. From doark at mail.com Mon Jun 12 06:29:27 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 01:29:27 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] DIY laptop part 1: screen Message-ID: <20170612012927.60569cfd@ulgy_thing> BTW: This little series has little to nothing to do with the eoma68. Don't feel obligated to reply. Hello, For a while now I've been working on making myself a new laptop. I wanted one that was 17 in. wide. It has proven difficult to locate a screen, I have search alibaba, amazon, and a few other assorted site without success. I need one that has: 1. Matte finish 2. 17 in. wide, not diagonally. 3. eDP 30 pin connector or MIPI-DSI connector. 4. 16.7 Million colours -- that would be 8-bit colour as opposed to 6-bit which you can find many of on alibaba. 5. Preferably, it is a touchscreen. If anyone has suggestions please point me in the right direction. Thanks, David From mike.valk at gmail.com Mon Jun 12 07:42:29 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:42:29 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] revision control in the arts? In-Reply-To: <20170606134729.GA28160@topoi.pooq.com> References: <20170606134729.GA28160@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: 2017-06-06 15:47 GMT+02:00 Hendrik Boom : > On Mon, Jun 05, 2017 at 05:47:35PM -0400, John Luke Gibson wrote: > > For word processing, I think the only good solution is a document > compiler, with the writer editing the source code. > The're is a way for arbitrary documents so work with version control. conversion to an intermediate format like markdown. http://blog.martinfenner.org/2014/08/25/using-microsoft-word-with-git/ https://github.com/vigente/gerardus/wiki/Integrate-git-diffs-with-word-docx-files It uses pandoc to convert to markdown and then to git. Found it on hackady http://hackaday.com/2017/05/23/stupid-git-tricks From vkontogpls at gmail.com Mon Jun 12 09:53:25 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 11:53:25 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:26 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > > this is why both the chinese and the russian governments now design > and make their own CPUs. in the case of china that's FROM SCRATCH. > and using only trusted foundries. > > l. > > I got a question: Assuming we got a decent design for a core( maybe based on this https://github.com/ucb-bar/riscv-boom) , how would we deal with the rest of the ip blocks needed to run peripherals ? I assume the most complicated ones would be usb and ethernet, and I fail to see the point of a SoC without usb. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Mon Jun 12 09:57:31 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 11:57:31 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] DIY laptop part 1: screen In-Reply-To: <20170612012927.60569cfd@ulgy_thing> References: <20170612012927.60569cfd@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 8:29 AM, David Niklas wrote: > > > If anyone has suggestions please point me in the right direction. > > Thanks, > David > > Could you potentially take a screen from an existing laptop and use that ? It's all 16:9 these days so I'm not sure what you mean with the 17 in wide, but that's the aspect ratio everything comes on now, unless you go for smaller tablet screens which can come in other flavors too. https://www.laptopscreen.com/English/ From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jun 12 16:33:11 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 16:33:11 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] DIY laptop part 1: screen In-Reply-To: <20170612012927.60569cfd@ulgy_thing> References: <20170612012927.60569cfd@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 6:29 AM, David Niklas wrote: > BTW: This little series has little to nothing to do with the eoma68. > Don't feel obligated to reply. > > Hello, > For a while now I've been working on making myself a new laptop. I wanted > one that was 17 in. wide. > It has proven difficult to locate a screen, I have search alibaba, > amazon, and a few other assorted site without success. > I need one that has: > 1. Matte finish > 2. 17 in. wide, not diagonally. > 3. eDP 30 pin connector or MIPI-DSI connector. > 4. 16.7 Million colours -- that would be 8-bit colour as opposed to 6-bit > which you can find many of on alibaba. start with http://panelook.com, get the part number which has the highest volume, then search specifically for that part number. > 5. Preferably, it is a touchscreen. no chance. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jun 12 16:47:20 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 16:47:20 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 9:53 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > I got a question: Assuming we got a decent design for a core( maybe based > on this https://github.com/ucb-bar/riscv-boom) , how would we deal with the > rest of the ip blocks needed to run peripherals ? I assume the most > complicated ones would be usb and ethernet, and I fail to see the point of > a SoC without usb. https://opencores.org/project,usb https://opencores.org/project,usbhostslave https://opencores.org/project,openarty for the UART (special, has debug capability) https://opencores.org/project,vga_lcd https://opencores.org/project,ddr3_sdram i have the source for a linux kernel driver which uses that VGA/LCD hard macro: it was used by ICubeCorp for the IC3128. they ran it at too slow a speed so it would only do 1366x768 @ 30fps 8bpp: this is probably because the bus speed for the framebuffer access was too heavy for the Wishbone bus. ramping up the clockrate and/or using a larger bus width should fix that, but it will need checking. also i believe the Gaisler Research LEON3 (SPARCv8) has an SMP implementation. all of these are GPL licensed.... hilariously many people licensed their hard macros under the GPLv2 in the belief that nobody in their right mind would utilise GPLv2 hard macros for a commercial venture. mwaahahahah From nick at internetmachines.co.uk Mon Jun 12 17:16:35 2017 From: nick at internetmachines.co.uk (Nick Hardiman) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 17:16:35 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: EOMA68 card news References: Message-ID: Did the early review cards get shipped to testers? > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Nick Hardiman > Subject: EOMA68 card news > Date: 10 June 2017 at 20:13:16 BST > To: Linux on small ARM machines > > Where should I look for news about EOMA68 card production? > > http://rhombus-tech.net/ home is out of date. > > https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates has May’s update about 3D printing, I guess for the micro-desktop and laptop. > > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/ has plenty of threads, mainly kicking ideas around. > > Thanks, Nick > > > From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jun 12 17:37:21 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 17:37:21 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: EOMA68 card news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: the list and the crowdsupply page is where you'll hear things. if you've not heard then it hasn't happened. On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Nick Hardiman wrote: > Did the early review cards get shipped to testers? > >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: Nick Hardiman >> Subject: EOMA68 card news >> Date: 10 June 2017 at 20:13:16 BST >> To: Linux on small ARM machines >> >> Where should I look for news about EOMA68 card production? >> >> http://rhombus-tech.net/ home is out of date. >> >> https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates has May’s update about 3D printing, I guess for the micro-desktop and laptop. >> >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/ has plenty of threads, mainly kicking ideas around. >> >> Thanks, Nick >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From doark at mail.com Sun Jun 11 03:27:47 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 22:27:47 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> Message-ID: <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 22:50:20 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:42 PM, Bill Kontos > wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > >> wrote: > > > > Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better ? > > They're not based on gnome (which in turn is based on GTK). that > alone is good enough reason. And GTK is bad because? If I were to write a graphical app in C wouldn't I *have* to use GTK? Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Mon Jun 12 02:05:27 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 21:05:27 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FYI: risc-v 6 workshop proceedings 2017 now available Message-ID: <20170611210527.1c747633@ulgy_thing> This is just me trying to be friendly and informative. Talks are here (I've not listened to them yet): https://riscv.org/2017/05/6th-risc-v-workshop-proceedings/ You're welcome, David From doark at mail.com Sun Jun 11 21:50:50 2017 From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 16:50:50 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170611165050.35e4d4f7@ulgy_thing> On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 18:47:48 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 1:01 PM, John Luke Gibson > wrote: > >> "well everyone does it so we don't need to take > >> special note of it" is how, historically, utterly valuable knowledge > >> has been lost through the ages. > > > > That's a very valid point. However I think the point of a standards > > organization should be to spread information about their standards > > that aren't widely or commonly known and it highly useful. Ultimately > > there will be some very new people looking for information, and for > > them knowing about the usefulness of version control would be > > important. Again, though, if only mundane things like that were taken > > on as a core tenets, I don't think anyone would take the organization > > seriously. > > > >> then, not least, you will discover that actually, everybody uses > >> github "by default".... which, when you read (and take) the software > >> engineer's hippocratic oath you find that it's very hard to honour > >> that oath and use github at the same time. > > > > I don't think there is much wrong the way github is designed, so much > > as it's > > economic model for sustaining itself. It requires closed > > source software development to survive. That's naughty. > > it does deeper than that, in a very seductive and insidious way. > what is the primary focus - what does github drive people to do, that > distinguishes it from sourceforge, savannah, alioth, codeforge and > other group collaboration systems? I give up. Why do some people dislike github or sourceforge? This is at least the third mailing list in which I've seen discontent without a reason given. > > * https://robertsspaceindustries.com/about-the-game > >>> [blah blah, about choosing between proprietary and free software] > >> > >> i don't understand where you're going with this. what is the main > >> point? > > > > Most projects will be hardware projects and, like with your decision > > not to use kicad, > > that's mainly to do with the fact that it's s*** software. sadly, > it's only when you've utilised well-written proprietary software that > you realise quite how hostile kicad actually is to getting the job > done. i'm not very happy about that, but it turns out that i am not > the only person to have tried. Just out of interest, not that I can do something about it *now*, is there any sort of list of "Things-that-a-kicad-or-clone-aught-to-do"? People can't fix or add what they don't know that they are missing and I, for one, would not ever use, or if I did not read this mailing list, know the name of, a "better" proprietary alternative. > > there will be many incidences where open projects > > need to decide between modding-up open software or using proprietary > > software. Occasionally, the former is just not practical. > > > > A standards organization, would do best to make sure they weighed both > > possibilities realistically and didn't just assume one or the other > > was more practical. > > no. sorry. i cannot be involved in anything which is unethical. > that is ABSOLUTE and non-negotiable. the consequences for me to be > involved in anything that is unethical are too disastrous to > contemplate. > > writing a high-profile standard (which is to be published by the FSF) > that helps proprietary software to improve its success would be > totally unethical. ??? Why not start with recommending them to make their software open source? Or set up a time table with the sources being released when the project has reached a certain reasonable financial goal or age. Age was used to determine when to release at least warzone2100, firefox, and X. Money wise, a company could say that after they made, say 2X the amount of their costs for producing the SW, then the users have "Bought the code". You have to start converting the closed source SW fanboys from somewhere. > >> again, i feel that it is not appropriate to tell people these kinds > >> of things, as it would be a restriction on what they do and learn. > >> counter-example: some projects *have* to have a large code-base, by > >> definition of their goals and scope. > > > > I recognize that intuitive isn't always concise, but often it is. > > I only mean concise when it means intuitive. > > If a projects roadmap demands a large code base that is > > highly-esoteric and unintuitive, then that exhibits fault in the > > underlying language. > > no it does not. certain tasks *require* specific languages. for > example: the linux kernel *requires* that you use assembler and c. > UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES is c++ permitted to be utilised. > > likewise, python is also developed in c. you can look up how pypy > has been getting on, to find out how unsuccessful it was to attempt to > implement python in anything other than c. > > also you can look up the efforts by the samba team to abandon c and > to try to write parts of samba 4 in python. this was also a > spectacular and long-drawn-out failure. > > in the case of samba, it has to be realised that samba is an > amalgamation of something like over TEN different network protocols, > at least FOUR separate and distinct RPC mechanisms, and over FORTY > separate and distinct inter-related services! the complexity of the > endeavour is just... astounding. > > when samba 4 was first announced i thought it was a joke. they > intended to implement not only the MSRPC services, but also to > implement their own Kerberos Server and LDAP server. what the FUCK?? > Heimdal is a QUARTER of a MILLION lines of code on its own. openldap > is likewise similarly large... and samba is probably getting on for > HALF a million lines of code WITHOUT these projects added to it! > > they're completely out of their MINDS if they think that's going to > work... or be accepted by sysadmins... and guess what? 10 years later > they still hadn't finished, and 15 years later they'd driven pretty > much every single large Enterprise (that had deployed samba for years) > right back to Windows NT Server! > > > the reason i am mentioning the example of Samba is because despite > following what is known to be "best software libre hosting practices", > they DO NOT HAVE A CHARTER and the developers *certainly* do not sign > up to the Software Engineer's variant of the Hippocratic Oath. > > there is more, but i will relay that another time. If they want all that functionality, why not just utilize the already opensource libraries for the task? Developing everything in house seems so.... wasteful and slow. The typical reason given is control, but if you are in control then *you are responsible* and then and there ball gets dropped. Look at blender, if I build with anything other than their in house copies of libraries it SEGFAULTS when I start it up. Thanks, David From adam at vany.ca Mon Jun 12 20:33:38 2017 From: adam at vany.ca (Adam Van Ymeren) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 15:33:38 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: <20170611165050.35e4d4f7@ulgy_thing> (doark@mail.com's message of "Sun, 11 Jun 2017 16:50:50 -0400") References: <20170611165050.35e4d4f7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <87wp8h9f1p.fsf@vany.ca> doark at mail.com writes: > I give up. Why do some people dislike github or sourceforge? > This is at least the third mailing list in which I've seen discontent > without a reason given. Same reason they dislike proprietary software in general. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Mon Jun 12 21:05:12 2017 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 16:05:12 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model References: <20170611165050.35e4d4f7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: > I give up. Why do some people dislike github or sourceforge? I don't think the two are in the same category at all (and the message to which you replied was specifically putting SourceForge in the "other" category, indeed). As to why some people dislike GitHub? I can't talk about other people, but personally, I don't have much trust in it for the following reasons: - It's a commercial company, so it has to make money somehow from its free service. - It doesn't publish its own code as Free Software (not even the Javascript code you download into your browser to use the site). - I feel a lot of pressure to use it. IOW they work hard to use the so-called "networking effect" to pull people to their site. The more you use it, the more you pressure other people to do likewise. I hate this kind of centralization because it gives too much power to a single unaccountable entity. Stefan From tomasn at posteo.net Mon Jun 12 21:15:12 2017 From: tomasn at posteo.net (Tomas Nordin) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 22:15:12 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: <20170611165050.35e4d4f7@ulgy_thing> References: <20170611165050.35e4d4f7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <8737b5rmi7.fsf@fliptop> doark at mail.com writes: > I give up. Why do some people dislike github or sourceforge? > This is at least the third mailing list in which I've seen discontent > without a reason given. But reasons are given and to the point here: https://www.fsf.org/news/gnu-releases-ethical-evaluations-of-code-hosting-services One major problem addressed is the need to run non-free java-script to use the service I think. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Mon Jun 12 22:07:51 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 17:07:51 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet toacceptapccard Message-ID: > On 10/06/17 06:03, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > > About the battery. If I can find an usb power bank having the right > > specifications, I could then use the power bank to power the > > computer and if I wanted to be able to charge the battery and > > have the computer turned on at the same time, I could get > > a charger with 2 usb connectors? > > With a power bank this might work, because they (AFAIK) all have their > charging circuitry inside the power bank and take a straight-up voltage > source to charge. It won't make too much difference how you connect them > as long as you have adequate gauge wires for all connections. > > If you're dealing with Li-ion cells, it's not recommended. It has to do > with how Li-ion charging works. In short the charge schedule (most > notable in a "fast" charge, meaning anything less than 5 hours or so) is > constant current at a rate the battery can handle to voltage, and then > constant voltage as the current tapers off to nearly nothing. > > The upshot of this is that trying to power a device with the > battery/charger combo while charging the battery will confuse any decent > charger (and if it isn't a decent charger you SHOULD NOT use it). The > only way around this is a charge controller designed for such use that > has three sets of terminals. One for a source, one for battery, and one > for load. The charge controller is then able to distinguish the load > from the battery charge current and charge it intelligently. Your lowermost section, I do not follow. Let us assume you somehow are able to get the battery bank into the computer's cabinet. Let us say, you use an usb port on the usb battery bank to both charge the usb battery bank and power supply the pc card. In order to power the pc card, you would have an usb cable connecting the power bank and the pc card. I have no power banks. Looking around, it appears power banks have a port for getting charged and one for power supplying devices. In general, are you sure, you cannot charge a power bank and simultaneously have it power supplying a device? If the power bank can be charged and power supply a device simultaneously you would connect another usb cable from the charger which charges the power bank to the power bank. Else if the power bank gets empty, you would remove the usb cable connecting the power bank and the pc card. Then connect an usb cable from the charger of the power bank to the power bank. I suggest to use a https://www.att.com/chargers/att-42a-dual-usb-low-draw-universal-wall-charger.html if you want to charge the power bank and turn on the pc card at the same time. One usb cable from the charger to the power bank. One usb cable form the charger to the pc card. > > Tor > > -- > Tor Chantara > http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ > 808-828-1107 > GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB > *Be wary of unsigned emails* > Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From nick at internetmachines.co.uk Mon Jun 12 22:18:59 2017 From: nick at internetmachines.co.uk (Nick Hardiman) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 22:18:59 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: EOMA68 card news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CB4229D-94D3-446A-9D53-A05D383CCD3B@internetmachines.co.uk> OK, looked back through the updates, and I think this is the most recent news on the EOMA68 A20. https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/taiwan-micro-desktop-casework-laptop-pcb1-and-a20 the EOMA68-A20 needs to go through another pre-production revision - estimated time to make and then test: 4-6 weeks. The EOMA68-A20 casework still needs to be done (a front plate arranged). I’m guessing there is a long way to go before anything ships. > On 12 Jun 2017, at 17:37, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > the list and the crowdsupply page is where you'll hear things. if > you've not heard then it hasn't happened. > > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Nick Hardiman > wrote: >> Did the early review cards get shipped to testers? >> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> From: Nick Hardiman >>> Subject: EOMA68 card news >>> Date: 10 June 2017 at 20:13:16 BST >>> To: Linux on small ARM machines >>> >>> Where should I look for news about EOMA68 card production? >>> >>> http://rhombus-tech.net/ home is out of date. >>> >>> https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates has May’s update about 3D printing, I guess for the micro-desktop and laptop. >>> >>> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/ has plenty of threads, mainly kicking ideas around. >>> >>> Thanks, Nick >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Tue Jun 13 02:30:51 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 21:30:51 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 10:27:47PM -0400, David Niklas wrote: > On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 22:50:20 +0100 > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:42 PM, Bill Kontos > > wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better ? > > > > They're not based on gnome (which in turn is based on GTK). that > > alone is good enough reason. > > And GTK is bad because? > If I were to write a graphical app in C wouldn't I *have* to use GTK? No. GTK is the Gimp toolkit, originally written for the GNU image manipulation program. It uses (presumably) the X toolkit (I don't kow its name), which is the low-level interface to sending and receiving the network packets for the X protocol with the ICCC -- the inter-client communications conventions, which goern communicataions with a window manager. (I don't know how much of this is now obsolete i ws using X in the 80's, and I gather it at least hs remained more or less compatible; there's a lot less flexibility in X nowadays, as far as I cana tell) There's no reason other systems shouldn't be built directly on the X toolkit. Qt, is presumably another such system. And the problems with GTK is that the developers have mpved on to another major release that, I'm told, isn't very compatible and old code is dying. It's another of the systems that have been forked. I don't know how well the old release is being maintained. -- hendrik From njansen1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 02:55:34 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 21:55:34 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > It uses (presumably) the X toolkit (I don't kow its name), which is the > low-level interface to sending and receiving the network packets for the X > protocol with the ICCC -- the inter-client communications conventions, which > goern communicataions with a window manager. (I don't know how much of this > is now obsolete i ws using X in the 80's, and I gather it at least hs remained > more or less compatible; there's a lot less flexibility in X nowadays, as far > as I cana tell) The two big ones are xcb (https://xcb.freedesktop.org/) and xlib ( https://tronche.com/gui/x/xlib/) > There's no reason other systems shouldn't be built directly on the X toolkit. Many tiling window managers (http://lmgtfy.com/?t=i&q=i3-gaps) do exactly that. They build directly on top of xlib or xcb, and they're freaking awesome. I'm REALLY surprised that nobody has mentioned any of the popular tiling window managers like i3 in this thread. They're so lightweight and usable, why would you need Gnome or KDE? > And the problems with GTK is that the developers have mpved on to another major > release that, I'm told, isn't very compatible and old code is dying. > It's another of the systems that have been forked. I don't know how well the > old release is being maintained. Look at some of the tiling window managers: i3, bspwm, xmonad are 3 popular ones. If you hate gnome and you hate KDE, these are all worth a look. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jun 13 03:46:48 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 03:46:48 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] why are notebook devices not usb? In-Reply-To: <20170531174127.7046834d@ulgy_thing> References: <20170531174127.7046834d@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 10:41 PM, David Niklas wrote: >> ron i wrote a long time ago when developing the tablet, about using a >> single embedded controller which only costs $1, instead of putting in >> a $1 USB hub, a $1.50 USB camera, a $1 USB audio IC and so on. > > > Do you still know where your write up is? list archives. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jun 13 03:52:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 03:52:07 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: <20170611165050.35e4d4f7@ulgy_thing> References: <20170611165050.35e4d4f7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 9:50 PM, wrote: > Just out of interest, not that I can do something about it *now*, is there > any sort of list of "Things-that-a-kicad-or-clone-aught-to-do"? > People can't fix or add what they don't know that they are missing and I, i've tried that: reported several bugs. the developers of kicad became entrenched in their own belief that their approach was absolutely correct, superior, and that the problem did not exist. after about a year, including input from other people who supported the bugreport (also ignored), i went, "y'know what? this isn't worth my time and effort". > ??? > Why not start with recommending them to make their software open source? have you seen how oracle's attitude works out? mysqldb, virtualbox, openoffice - look up how those have been received by the software libre community. l. From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Tue Jun 13 07:34:46 2017 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 20:34:46 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet toacceptapccard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <808c24ba-b295-4bd8-d857-b81ce117db6b@FineArtMarquetry.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 12/06/17 11:07, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: >> The upshot of this is that trying to power a device with the >> battery/charger combo while charging the battery will confuse any >> decent charger (and if it isn't a decent charger you SHOULD NOT >> use it). The only way around this is a charge controller designed >> for such use that has three sets of terminals. One for a source, >> one for battery, and one for load. The charge controller is then >> able to distinguish the load from the battery charge current and >> charge it intelligently. > > > Your lowermost section, I do not follow. In short this is dealing with a straight-up battery pack, not a fully integrated power bank with charger. > Let us assume you somehow are able to get the battery bank into the > computer's cabinet. Let us say, you use an usb port on the usb > battery bank to both charge the usb battery bank and power supply > the pc card. In order to power the pc card, you would have an usb > cable connecting the power bank and the pc card. Assuming a schematic that looks something like: PC Card-\___ | Power supply _Charger_| | - --Battery This is OK. If the power bank is designed with internal charge circuitry (required for USB powered devices because the USB voltage is too high for Li-ion), then you should be OK. > I have no power banks. Looking around, it appears power banks have a > port for getting charged and one for power supplying devices. In this case, simultaneous charge/draw may have some losses that would be preferable to avoid, but if the power bank is well-designed it should be fine. > In general, are you sure, you cannot charge a power bank and > simultaneously have it power supplying a device? If the power bank > can be charged and power supply a device simultaneously you would > connect another usb cable from the charger which charges the power > bank to the power bank. It's a question of how the charger is arranged. Laptops do this all the time. The schematic that does not work is: Battery | ----+------- | | Computer Li-ion charger The problem here, AIUI, is that the charger can't cut off power to the battery once it's charged, because it can't tell. This will degrade the battery faster, and Li-ion is the most dangerous chemistry to mishandle. It's not without reason that there are warnings everywhere to only use proper smart chargers for Li-ion. > Else if the power bank gets empty, you would remove the usb cable > connecting the power bank and the pc card. Then connect an usb cable > from the charger of the power bank to the power bank. I suggest to > use a > https://www.att.com/chargers/att-42a-dual-usb-low-draw-universal-wall-c harger.html > > if you want to charge the power bank and turn on the pc card at the same time. > One usb cable from the charger to the power bank. One usb cable form > the charger to the pc card. This can be done. The most important thing is to make sure the charge circuitry has only the battery on the battery side of it. By running off a power bank you will have some extra losses in the boost then buck voltage conversions, quite possibly upwards of 10%. Tor - -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ 808-828-1107 GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlk/h4UACgkQuGYDdRNLSPtJ+gCeP3Lkv1j4E2Q25vwwNCnxQxma +iAAnA9JOVHr4q1trYllxUTloXxP4y3h =XpGU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vkontogpls at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 09:07:10 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 11:07:10 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:55 AM, Neil Jansen wrote: > Many tiling window managers (http://lmgtfy.com/?t=i&q=i3-gaps) do exactly > that. They build directly on top of xlib or xcb, and they're freaking > awesome. I'm REALLY surprised that nobody has mentioned any of the popular I use i3. Tilling wms are so good that I really don't understand why they are not used as much. Xmonad is also great, you can configure it using haswell. From tzafrir at cohens.org.il Tue Jun 13 10:24:38 2017 From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 11:24:38 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: <20170611165050.35e4d4f7@ulgy_thing> References: <20170611165050.35e4d4f7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170613092437.GT27681@lemon.cohens.org.il> On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 04:50:50PM -0400, doark at mail.com wrote: > I give up. Why do some people dislike github or sourceforge? > This is at least the third mailing list in which I've seen discontent > without a reason given. Git is a nice distributed version control system. That is: each node contains the whole archive including all of the history. No inherent central node. So all you need to develop with it is some basic hosting, right? Now Github comes along and tells you: if you use git in our site, you can have extra goodies. Pull requests work. But only so long as you are a user of Github to begin with. If it's not in Github, it might as well not exist. So suddenly you have a single point of failure. This is not that good. For instance, what if Github decides not to allow you to host your project (for whatever legitimate reason)? I believe most people who object using Github here object using those extra services and not merely using Github as a git hosting service. But this point is mostly moot, as why would you use Github and not use bug pull requests, bug tracking etc.? Are they evil? Certainly not. They provide a great service that people like. We should also provide quality services / software or otherwise people will keep depending on walled gardens. Sourceforge has held a somewhat similar position in the past (at around 1999-2005 or so) when a large portion of the projects were hosted there because it provided a very fine hosting facility (files, web, shell, mailing list, tasks, and more) for free. It is no longer in that position. One problem with it nowadays is that they have been shown to used some non-optimal methods of getting ad money in the recent past. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's tzafrir at cohens.org.il | | best tzafrir at debian.org | | friend From tzafrir at cohens.org.il Tue Jun 13 10:38:33 2017 From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 11:38:33 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <20170613093833.GU27681@lemon.cohens.org.il> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 09:30:51PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 10:27:47PM -0400, David Niklas wrote: > > And GTK is bad because? > > If I were to write a graphical app in C wouldn't I *have* to use GTK? > > No. GTK is the Gimp toolkit, originally written for the GNU image manipulation > program. And has since gone through major revisions. Its name is GTK+, BTW. > > It uses (presumably) the X toolkit (I don't kow its name), X Toolkit is Xt, not GTK+. GTK+ nowadays has several backends. On Linux it can use either X or Wayland (or also Mir, in the Ubuntu variant). > which is the > low-level interface to sending and receiving the network packets for the X > protocol with the ICCC -- the inter-client communications conventions, which > goern communicataions with a window manager. And also the compositor. And keep in mind that rendering is client side nowadays. > (I don't know how much of this > is now obsolete i ws using X in the 80's, and I gather it at least hs remained > more or less compatible; there's a lot less flexibility in X nowadays, as far > as I cana tell) > > There's no reason other systems shouldn't be built directly on the X toolkit. I happen to use a language (Hebrew) that requires some non-trivial rendering. GTK+ and QT support this (at least the basics: display. More complex layouts and rendering of edited text have their own gotchas) for over 10 years. If you don't use them, each program has to add support independently. This may e.g. show up in window titles, because browsers may put the title of pages there. The relatively minimalistic window manager I now use (awesome) renders them just fine. Because it uses GTK+ (or at least parts of the GTK+ stack). Another minimalistic WM I used to use (icewm) added support for the library fribidi independently and thus should properly render Hebrew and Arabic. But good luck with other complex languages. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's tzafrir at cohens.org.il | | best tzafrir at debian.org | | friend From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Tue Jun 13 18:30:06 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 13:30:06 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv Message-ID: From: Neil Jansen > On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 4:38 PM, wrote: > > Thank you for the information. > > I have watched a rutkowska video on how complicated > > intel's management features are. > > Difficult. > > That's why I'm here, lol. The Intel stuff is getting bad enough that it > has me wondering what I can do for the open source hardware world. Moving > to ARM via EOMA68 is a good near-term solution, but even that's not going > to be 100% trustable at lest by bunnie's standards in the lecture. > Something like RISC-V has the potential to get there, but as he pointed > out, even that's not completely open. I think right now the important > thing is to just be an early adopter of this stuff to show that the > market's there. bunnie broke the demographics down pretty well, there's > definitely money to be made. Back to Intel though. It makes me want to > jump on eBay and pick up some older vintage Intel CPU's that didn't have > the management features, but obviously there's no way to know if those > aren't blown wide open by other means. Man, very interesting times we live > in. > > > > Remarkable that you cannot do a verification using a microscope. > > You can do exactly this, and it'll get you to maybe 99% of the way there. > Companies like ChipWorks do exactly this for money. Others do it for hobby > (see: http://www.visual6502.org/, http://siliconpr0n.org/, > https://zeptobars.com/en/, http://www.righto.com/). It can often get great > results. bunnie was playing devils advocate by saying even if you did > this, there are still things that can be present but in an obfuscated > manner, that could be malicious or careless. This doesn't really mean to > throw the baby out with the bathwater. Having a reverse engineered CPU > with a small possibility of shenanigans is still better than having a 100% > proprietary CPU or a 50% proprietary CPU. Security through obscurity and > all that. > > > > We should have libre software hdds and ram. > > Can you elaborate on that a bit? I don't understand what you mean. https://www.theverge.com/2015/2/16/8048243/nsa-hard-drive-firmware-virus-stuxnet Devices like hdd, ram, sd card have their own system software. You cannot access it and do not know what it can do. https://opencores.org/ > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Tue Jun 13 22:59:03 2017 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 22:59:03 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Power Load Sharing (modifying a 7 inch notebook cabinet toacceptapccard) In-Reply-To: <808c24ba-b295-4bd8-d857-b81ce117db6b@FineArtMarquetry.com> References: <808c24ba-b295-4bd8-d857-b81ce117db6b@FineArtMarquetry.com> Message-ID: Loading sharing is the ability to draw power from battery but when the battery is being charged, the load switches seamlessly to being powered from the same power input that is powering the battery charger. Products that do this: *adafruit make a 5v boost + charger with load sharing. [1] *nitecore make a 18650 li-ion charger + usb power bank which also has load sharing. which is a rare feature for power banks. [2] Example load share circuit: http://blog.zakkemble.co.uk/a-lithium-battery-charger-with-load-sharing/ [1] arr search youll find it, called powerboost i think. note that its not good for OTG phone use. i damaged one of mine when my device was sending power back down to the powerboost. :( [2] https://www.banggood.com/Nitecore-F1-Flexible-Micro-USB-Outdoor-Power-Bank-Smart-Battery-Charger-p-1056954.html (where i bought mine from.) From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 14 09:30:45 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 09:30:45 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ron hi please remember to cut context. there is 3 paragraphs comprising several hundred words, repeated, followed by a single sentence and then a single-sentence question. these last two sentences are the only relevant context: the rest of the context you have forced over 400 people to re-read unnecessarily. please consider the impact that you are having on the members of the list by following the required etiquette which, by following it, i am permitting you to be a member of this list. thank you for understanding and respecting the interaction rules of this list. l. On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 6:30 PM, wrote: >> > We should have libre software hdds and ram. >> >> Can you elaborate on that a bit? I don't understand what you mean. > https://www.theverge.com/2015/2/16/8048243/nsa-hard-drive-firmware-virus-stuxnet > > > > > Devices like hdd, ram, sd card have their own system software. > You cannot access it and do not know what it can do. > https://opencores.org/ From mike.valk at gmail.com Wed Jun 14 11:13:59 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 12:13:59 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-06-12 2:02 GMT+02:00 Neil Jansen : > On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 4:38 PM, wrote: > > > We should have libre software hdds and ram. > > Can you elaborate on that a bit? I don't understand what you mean. > It's the same principle as explained by bunnie in the video. HDD and RAM process all the data. But they have hard/soft programming which proces that data. If you can't audit the hard/soft programming then you don't know if your data is being read/copied/manipulated. http://spritesmods.com/?art=hddhack More and more hardware is using CPU to function. And thus have soft programming (firrmware) which can be altered. From njansen1 at gmail.com Wed Jun 14 14:44:01 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 09:44:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:07 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > > I use i3. Tilling wms are so good that I really don't understand why > they are not used as much. Xmonad is also great, you can configure it > using haswell. Cool, glad to hear that someone out there is using it. I still don't think that they get enough love though. They're getting popular in a few small communities (arch, and reddit, and that's about it). To lkcl's original quote "[TDE] is strategically quite important as it's one of the remaining comprehensive desktop environments that is also light-weight and relevant.", i3 and xmonad are more lightweight, and are more relevant to the sort of culture to which this mailing list is centered around. A few more links for those that may be curious about tiling window managers, while I'm beating a dead horse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ofq4gpG_lM - Great introduction video https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Comparison_of_tiling_window_managers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiling_window_manager https://www.reddit.com/r/unixporn/ - active communty with lots of posted screenshots from various environments https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARKIwOlazKI From vkontogpls at gmail.com Wed Jun 14 22:06:01 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 00:06:01 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Neil Jansen wrote: >To lkcl's original quote "[TDE] is strategically quite important as > it's one of the remaining comprehensive desktop environments that is also > light-weight and relevant.", i3 and xmonad are more lightweight, and are > more relevant to the sort of culture to which this mailing list is centered > around. > A tilling window manager is just that, a window manager. It manages windows, resizes etc. A desktop environment is a complete set of tools including applications, applets, utilities, a window manager etc. Most of the applications we are using today with any kind of setup we run are part of some DE, with some notable exceptions like transmission. But that's beyond the point, TDE seems to be an interesting project( btw you can e.g. run i3 as the window manager in kde replacing kwin with some pretty sweet integration if you really want). From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Wed Jun 14 23:39:35 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 18:39:35 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <20170614223935.GA31986@topoi.pooq.com> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 09:44:01AM -0400, Neil Jansen wrote: > On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:07 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > > > > I use i3. Tilling wms are so good that I really don't understand why > > they are not used as much. Xmonad is also great, you can configure it > > using haswell. > > Cool, glad to hear that someone out there is using it. > > I still don't think that they get enough love though. If I understand correctly, tiling window managers don't put windows on top of one another. On my laptop that would mean I have crazily small windows. -- hendrik From Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com Thu Jun 15 00:13:33 2017 From: Marqueteur at FineArtMarquetry.com (Tor, the Marqueteur) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 13:13:33 -1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: <20170614223935.GA31986@topoi.pooq.com> References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> <20170614223935.GA31986@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <5ff62d82-747e-3e0a-6eb3-9de393d3a3d3@FineArtMarquetry.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 14/06/17 12:39, Hendrik Boom wrote: > If I understand correctly, tiling window managers don't put windows > on top of one another. On my laptop that would mean I have crazily > small windows. Depends on the WM. I've tried a few, but returned to the first tiling WM I tried, Ratpoison. Couldn't get used to the way the others would move and resize the tiles without being told to. Ratpoison, on the other hand, I've seen is arguably not a true tiler, but it starts with the whole screen taken up with one window. The screen can be then partitioned into any number of frames by straight lines across the frame being divided, with a window in each frame. Any windows that don't fit in the frames are "behind", as it were, the visible windows. Tor - -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ 808-828-1107 GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAllBwxwACgkQuGYDdRNLSPtAdwCglYUD66diRmywb5kqSETD2c8s vEwAni4yEsDMb86CTFyXfwIhh1iMOtui =8gYd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vkontogpls at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 08:22:55 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 10:22:55 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: <20170614223935.GA31986@topoi.pooq.com> References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> <20170614223935.GA31986@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > If I understand correctly, tiling window managers don't put windows on > top of one another. On my laptop that would mean I have crazily small > windows. > > -- hendrik i3 will open a window full screen, then depending on if you tell it to open the next vertically or horizontally it will split the screen into 2, then for the third it will split the room the currently focused window has into half, again vertically or horizontally. You can make the windows show as tabs if you want too. If there are too many windows you can move them around in different workspaces( default is super+shift+q) and then move between workspaces with super+123...0 An exception to this are dialogue windows. Also if you so desire you can switch a window from tilling to floating mode, but that doesn't work very well in my experience. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Jun 15 15:02:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 15:02:07 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working Message-ID: i received the latest pre-production cards yesterday and have tested one of them: it works. however (and this is the whole point of doing pre-production prototypes) in endeavouring to use automated assembly and solder paste it was discovered that the VIAs underneath the pads for the JAE DC3 Micro-HDMI connector are sucking the solder paste in and down, leaving the pins not properly connected. the factory's engineer hand-soldered the 10 samples, but we cannot possibly do 1,000 PCBs by hand.... so it is necessary to do some test PCBs to work out how to get these connectors, with utterly tiny pins (0.25mm wide) to stick, given that the tracks simply have to come up from underneath using VIAs. VIAs coming up on a pad is generally bad because it's a hole down which the solder paste simply... sucks down. if anyone knows any tricks i would appreciate hearing them. i was thinking of creating the pad with a triangular end, placing the VIA right at the end so that the solder paste can't "wick away". anyone got any other ideas? l. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From njansen1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 15:11:34 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 10:11:34 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 15, 2017 10:02 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" wrote: if anyone knows any tricks i would appreciate hearing them. [...] anyone got any other ideas? Can you share a screenshot or PDF or imgur link to the PCB layout around the connector? A direct link to the GERBERs would work too. From bluey at smallfootprint.info Thu Jun 15 15:16:00 2017 From: bluey at smallfootprint.info (Bluey) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 00:16:00 +1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 16 Jun 2017, at 12:02 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > ... > > if anyone knows any tricks i would appreciate hearing them. i was > thinking of creating the pad with a triangular end, placing the VIA > right at the end so that the solder paste can't "wick away". anyone > got any other ideas? > > l. > Is it an issue of gravity? Perhaps it might be possible to apply the solder paste to the board in an upside down orientation (or even just at a high angle)? From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Jun 15 16:10:51 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 16:10:51 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Neil Jansen wrote: > Can you share a screenshot or PDF or imgur link is the source code of the imgur proprietary service available so that i can host my own version of imgur without being monitored? .... tell you what, i'll make a news update on a server that i have access to, where i know it's entirely libre-hosted software by people that i trust :) http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/news/ how's that? :) so.. you can see, the right-hand pads are really *really* close to the edge of the PCB. so for that exact same reason it's impossible to bring the tracks in on the top layer. now, examination of one of the samples which was not properly assembled (by hand), the DC3 connector was placed 1mm too far back.. but the pins were still successfully wired to the pads (right at the very end). so in theeeoorryyyy.... the left-most pads could be moved up to 1mm to the left, then the right-most pads extended so that extra amounts of solder paste can be dropped on them. thoughts appreciated. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Jun 15 16:39:55 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 16:39:55 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 3:16 PM, Bluey wrote: > Is it an issue of gravity? Perhaps it might be possible to > apply the solder paste to the board in an upside > down orientation (or even just at a high angle)? the solder paste is applied with a stencil and (literally) a squeegee. it sticks quite happily, and stays there even if the board's upside-down. the problem is not the solder paste as it's applied, but when the board's put into the oven. that's where, when it reaches melting temperature (240C or so?) it flows into the via holes... which are something like 0.15mm wide (6 mil, aka 6 1/000ths of an inch). given that the pads themselves are only 7mil (0.2mm) wide, and only about 25mil (1mm appx) long, there's far too little solder paste so it just gets sucked down the hole. you cannot place the components upside-down on the PCB before they go into the oven, if you do that they will simply fall off. l. From vincent.legoll at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 17:09:06 2017 From: vincent.legoll at gmail.com (Vincent Legoll) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:09:06 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > .... tell you what, i'll make a news update on a server that i have > access to, where i know it's entirely libre-hosted software by people > that i trust :) > > http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/news/ > > how's that? :) Not bad, but you should be careful with your trust: that page has been vandalized, to restore, you should add back the missing "o": http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/news/EOMA68_A20_bottom.rev2.4.png instead of : http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/news/EOMA68_A20_bottm.rev2.4.png For the third picture to show up properly... -- Vincent Legoll From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Jun 15 20:01:23 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 20:01:23 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: okaay so the HDMI connection isn't so hot on these 2.7.4 boards. it works... but there is significant line-interference under certain circumstances, even for 720p50. 1080p60 there is huge amounts of interference resulting in green horizontal lines. *sigh* i'll just have to have another go at the layout... blech. From njansen1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 03:47:19 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 22:47:19 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote: > > is the source code of the imgur proprietary service available so that > i can host my own version of imgur without being monitored? Lol, no clue, dude. imgur is what us plebs without principles or motivation use :-) Use whatever works for you. > so.. you can see, the right-hand pads are really *really* close to > the edge of the PCB. so for that exact same reason it's impossible to > bring the tracks in on the top layer. OK so if I were laying that out, I wouldn't ever put a via in the middle of a pad, not a full time electrical engineer, I only do hobby boards in quantities of less than 100. Tomorrow I'll ask around at work to see if any of the EE's have any advice. They do all sorts of crazy things in a production environment that I would never dream of. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Jun 16 07:19:48 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 07:19:48 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 3:47 AM, Neil Jansen wrote: >> so.. you can see, the right-hand pads are really *really* close to >> the edge of the PCB. so for that exact same reason it's impossible to >> bring the tracks in on the top layer. > > OK so if I were laying that out, I wouldn't ever put a via in the middle of > a pad, there's not really any other options: you can see how little clearance there is to the edge of the board: it's flat-out impossible to bring tracks in either in between those two sets, or round the back... and you don't want to anyway: they're differential pairs (up to 1ghz clock rate) because this is HDMI. > not a full time electrical engineer, I only do hobby boards in > quantities of less than 100. Tomorrow I'll ask around at work to see if > any of the EE's have any advice. They do all sorts of crazy things in a > production environment that I would never dream of. there's a way - it just has to be found. l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 07:51:22 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:51:22 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-06-16 8:19 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > > > there's not really any other options: you can see how little > clearance there is to the edge of the board: it's flat-out impossible > to bring tracks in either in between those two sets, or round the > back... and you don't want to anyway: they're differential pairs (up > to 1ghz clock rate) because this is HDMI. > Hmm. Then how are other users of this connector doing it? This seems like a generic problem. The solder technique is generic afaikt. 1. Either they are using smaller width tracks and are passing between the left hand pads. 2. They have via's right to the pads. But that's very close to the edge. The options I see... . find other schematics using this connector. . Use smaller width tracks. . Cut the pads tight a little shorter and place the via's to the right creating a bottleneck but stil far enough from the edge . The above but to the left, via's in the middle. > > From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Jun 16 07:54:28 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 07:54:28 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 7:51 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-06-16 8:19 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> >> >> there's not really any other options: you can see how little >> clearance there is to the edge of the board: it's flat-out impossible >> to bring tracks in either in between those two sets, or round the >> back... and you don't want to anyway: they're differential pairs (up >> to 1ghz clock rate) because this is HDMI. >> > > Hmm. Then how are other users of this connector doing it? This seems like a > generic problem. The solder technique is generic afaikt. > 1. Either they are using smaller width tracks and are passing between the > left hand pads. like i said: there's not enough room to get that many tracks between the pads, and it would violate differential-pair rules to do so. > 2. They have via's right to the pads. But that's very close to the edge. exactly. > The options I see... > . find other schematics using this connector. none. > . Use smaller width tracks. can't. > . Cut the pads tight a little shorter and place the via's to the right > creating a bottleneck but stil far enough from the edge possible. > . The above but to the left, via's in the middle. possible but risky. From mike.valk at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 07:55:53 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:55:53 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-06-15 21:01 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > okaay so the HDMI connection isn't so hot on these 2.7.4 boards. it > works... but there is significant line-interference under certain > circumstances, even for 720p50. 1080p60 there is huge amounts of > interference resulting in green horizontal lines. *sigh* i'll just > have to have another go at the layout... blech. How about having GND tracks parallel to each Tx/Rx pair. Creating a sink for EM signals to drain into instead of crossing over. ---GND----0 ---Tx------[ ] ---Rx------[ ] ---GND----0 ---Tx------[ ] ---Rx------[ ] ---GND----o From mike.valk at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 08:03:04 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 09:03:04 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-06-16 8:54 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 7:51 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: > > . Use smaller width tracks. > can't. > Was afraid of that > > > . Cut the pads tight a little shorter and place the via's to the right > > creating a bottleneck but stil far enough from the edge > > possible. > > > . The above but to the left, via's in the middle. > > possible but risky. > Depends on how near to can get to left hand pads or the egde on the right and were the pads in the connector have most tolerance. Speaking of near the edge. The tracks on the board seem awfully close the boards cutoff edge. Doesn't that create a problem for cutting them out? From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Jun 16 08:07:10 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:07:10 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:03 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: >> > . Cut the pads tight a little shorter and place the via's to the right >> > creating a bottleneck but stil far enough from the edge >> >> possible. >> >> > . The above but to the left, via's in the middle. >> >> possible but risky. >> > > Depends on how near to can get to left hand pads or the egde on the right > and were the pads in the connector have most tolerance. > > Speaking of near the edge. The tracks on the board seem awfully close the > boards cutoff edge. yyep they are. > Doesn't that create a problem for cutting them out? no but it does cause an imbalance in the differential pairs unless the tracks come in dead-straight from the left, and it also means that ground shielding isn't possible. normally the connector would be at least 20-30 mil away from the edge so that ground vias could be placed all along the right-hand edge. that's near-flat-out impossible. the best that can be hoped for is that the three pins (in grey) which are GND will do the job of creating an EMI shield instead. l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 08:18:26 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 09:18:26 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-06-16 9:07 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:03 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > Speaking of near the edge. The tracks on the board seem awfully close the > > boards cutoff edge. > > yyep they are. > > > Doesn't that create a problem for cutting them out? > > no but it does cause an imbalance in the differential pairs unless > the tracks come in dead-straight from the left, and it also means that > ground shielding isn't possible. > > normally the connector would be at least 20-30 mil away from the edge > so that ground vias could be placed all along the right-hand edge. > that's near-flat-out impossible. the best that can be hoped for is > that the three pins (in grey) which are GND will do the job of > creating an EMI shield instead. > I was talking about the photo's not the connector. From mike.valk at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 08:33:14 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 09:33:14 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-06-16 8:55 GMT+02:00 mike.valk at gmail.com : > > > 2017-06-15 21:01 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > >> okaay so the HDMI connection isn't so hot on these 2.7.4 boards. it >> works... but there is significant line-interference under certain >> circumstances, even for 720p50. 1080p60 there is huge amounts of >> interference resulting in green horizontal lines. *sigh* i'll just >> have to have another go at the layout... blech. > > > How about having GND tracks parallel to each Tx/Rx pair. Creating a sink > for EM signals to drain into instead of crossing over. > > ---GND----0 > ---Tx------[ ] > ---Rx------[ ] > ---GND----0 > ---Tx------[ ] > ---Rx------[ ] > ---GND----o > > Looking at the schematics I see that is already being done. I do however see a lot of gaps between GND tracks. Especially on the blue layer. Too bad the HDMI pads are so close to each other otherwise you could have had a GND track run between them fully enclosing the HS pads. To the left I see that all HDMI tracks are routed trough some chips. What are those? Magnetics, impedance matchers? I mention that because on the blue tracks the'res a log of extra track for matching track length. maybe that should that be done before those chips. Also the pads are shortened. I hope that's on purpose. > > From mike.valk at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 11:06:11 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 12:06:11 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-06-16 9:33 GMT+02:00 mike.valk at gmail.com : > > > 2017-06-16 8:55 GMT+02:00 mike.valk at gmail.com : > >> >> > > To the left I see that all HDMI tracks are routed trough some chips. What > are those? Magnetics, impedance matchers? I mention that because on the > blue tracks the'res a log of extra track for matching track length. maybe > that should that be done before those chips. > Just a design thought on track length. Because of impedance matching HF tracks should be of equal length. And to minimize their EM emission the need to run parallel. But when changing direction you get an inner and outer track where the outer track becomes longer. To mitigate that you have those curly lines scattered around, usually at the end. Those cost a lot of room. Since the schematics already show two layers with HF signal tracks why not place the Tx and Rx track on top of each other. Result: Parallel tracks. And very close to each other. Equal lengths on "curves". And minimize the curly tacks. I know that this introduces issue when you need tracks crossing. But that could be solved by cross bridging... Hmm how am I going to visualize that in text.... T R x x | | Tx_____ / | | \ / | | o Tx/Rx---< | | >----Rx/Tx o | | / \Rx_____/ | | | | ASCII art needs monospace font... Tx/Rx on the left come in stacked. Before the bridge they split Rx passes a via to the Tx layer. leaving the Rx layer free for other tracks to pass on the Rx layer. After the bridge Tx passes the via the the previous Rx layer and Rx continues on the Tx layer, The swapped layers. Both Rx and Tx have passed a keeping a match via count for impedance matching. From njansen1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 13:51:35 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:51:35 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote: > > http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/news/ After thinking about it a bit more, what about a blind via? They can even be filled with copper by the board house. I'm assuming this is a 6-ish layer board, yea? Since you didn't mention that it was blind or otherwise, i'm assuming you have regular-old normal vias, probably non-tented? A blind via will by the very physics and geometry wick away less solder, because it takes up less volume. And if it's filled with copper or whatever the board house can fill them with, it will take up no solder at all. See 'A', 'B', and 'C' on the (GASP!) imgur link. http://imgur.com/a/L0lmS Would this work? From marek at pikula.co Fri Jun 16 14:44:16 2017 From: marek at pikula.co (=?UTF-8?Q?Marek_Piku=C5=82a?=) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 15:44:16 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, about vias, some PCB houses have special technique for vias in a pad (VIP for short). Look up on YT how it's done. Here is one of results from quick search https://www.pcbcart.com/pcb-capability/via-in-pad.html 16 cze 2017 14:53 "Neil Jansen" napisał(a): On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote: > > http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/news/ After thinking about it a bit more, what about a blind via? They can even be filled with copper by the board house. I'm assuming this is a 6-ish layer board, yea? Since you didn't mention that it was blind or otherwise, i'm assuming you have regular-old normal vias, probably non-tented? A blind via will by the very physics and geometry wick away less solder, because it takes up less volume. And if it's filled with copper or whatever the board house can fill them with, it will take up no solder at all. See 'A', 'B', and 'C' on the (GASP!) imgur link. http://imgur.com/a/L0lmS Would this work? _______________________________________________ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Jun 16 14:55:35 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 14:55:35 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 11:06 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > Since the schematics already show two layers with HF signal tracks why not > place the Tx and Rx track on top of each other. Result: Parallel tracks. the impedance of different layers is different, so no this does not work. or forces you to do a stack analysis. and simulations. which cost tens of thousands of dollars. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Jun 16 14:57:35 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 14:57:35 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Marek Pikuła wrote: > Hi, about vias, some PCB houses have special technique for vias in a pad > (VIP for short). Look up on YT how it's done. Here is one of results from > quick search https://www.pcbcart.com/pcb-capability/via-in-pad.html interesting. so... they plug the VIA with resin then put copper on top of that. i'll run it by mike's factory, see if he's heard of it. l. From njansen1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 14:59:01 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 09:59:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm on mobile at work, I've confirmed with an EE here that does this sort of thing all the time. The good news is that your easiest bet is to just ask the board house to fill the vias with epoxy, they can plate over that, and it's very common these days. He said that filling a normal via (not blind or buried) with epoxy is going to be cheaper than what I previously proposed (using blind vias). The better news is that you can actually rework your current boards by filling the offending vias with epoxy, if they're otherwise usable. A pneumatic shot dispense system would be needed but they're cheap and available now thanks to China. There isn't really any bad news. He said it's extremely common, we do it probably 100's of times on our boards at work , which are incredibly dense and expensive. No issues at all, it's extremely reliable to do this, even across temperature ranges and vibration. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Jun 16 14:59:46 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 14:59:46 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Neil Jansen wrote: > After thinking about it a bit more, what about a blind via? no. they're insanely expensive and only justifiable with very high MOQs. current PCB costs are only around $1.50 in volume. prototyping costs would be through the roof. for this project the PCB has to be manufacturable at reasonable cost in small all the way up to mass volume. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Jun 16 15:01:08 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 15:01:08 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Neil Jansen wrote: > I'm on mobile at work, I've confirmed with an EE here that does this sort > of thing all the time. > > The good news is that your easiest bet is to just ask the board house to > fill the vias with epoxy, awesome. that's two great ideas. via-over-pad (which involves resin-filling as well). l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 20:40:18 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 21:40:18 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Op 16 jun. 2017 15:57 schreef "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" : On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 11:06 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > Since the schematics already show two layers with HF signal tracks why not > place the Tx and Rx track on top of each other. Result: Parallel tracks. the impedance of different layers is different, so no this does not work. or forces you to do a stack analysis. and simulations. which cost tens of thousands of dollars. Bleh. It looked so pretty in my mind. ;-( So different layers have different copper thickness. l. _______________________________________________ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From mike.valk at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 20:44:48 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 21:44:48 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Op 16 jun. 2017 16:03 schreef "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" : On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Neil Jansen wrote: > I'm on mobile at work, I've confirmed with an EE here that does this sort > of thing all the time. > > The good news is that your easiest bet is to just ask the board house to > fill the vias with epoxy, awesome. that's two great ideas. via-over-pad (which involves resin-filling as well). So the PCB factory is not the party populating the board? l. _______________________________________________ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From doark at mail.com Sat Jun 17 03:30:34 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 22:30:34 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170616223034.1e4c4927@ulgy_thing> On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 15:01:08 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Neil Jansen wrote: > > I'm on mobile at work, I've confirmed with an EE here that does this > > sort of thing all the time. > > > > The good news is that your easiest bet is to just ask the board house > > to fill the vias with epoxy, > > awesome. that's two great ideas. via-over-pad (which involves > resin-filling as well). > > l. How about a third? I'm no EE (I'd like to be, but that's another story), so take this with a grain of salt. Use kapton tape to cover the holes. That will resist the heat the down and up side being that you have to manually apply and remove it afterwards and it will not leave a trace like epoxy so you can use the VIA holes. Sincerely, David From doark at mail.com Sat Jun 17 03:32:30 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 22:32:30 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] DIY laptop part 1: screen In-Reply-To: References: <20170612012927.60569cfd@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170616223230.555ae58d@ulgy_thing> On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 16:33:11 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 6:29 AM, David Niklas wrote: > > BTW: This little series has little to nothing to do with the eoma68. > > Don't feel obligated to reply. > > > > Hello, > > For a while now I've been working on making myself a new laptop. I > > wanted one that was 17 in. wide. > > It has proven difficult to locate a screen, I have search alibaba, > > amazon, and a few other assorted site without success. > > I need one that has: > > 1. Matte finish > > 2. 17 in. wide, not diagonally. > > 3. eDP 30 pin connector or MIPI-DSI connector. > > 4. 16.7 Million colours -- that would be 8-bit colour as opposed to > > 6-bit which you can find many of on alibaba. > > start with http://panelook.com, get the part number which has the > highest volume, then search specifically for that part number. I found two good looking panels (I'm assuming that "high volume" means in stock). One is very much in stock, the other not so. Now I have the problem of not buying 10 of them... There appears to be only one seller selling one at a time, but he is charging double. Come on self, think, you can be as smart as Luke! .... I hope .... Aha, EBAY! Ok, I'm in business. Thanks, Luke. > > 5. Preferably, it is a touchscreen. > > no chance. Not that I really needed it (since I'd only use it for blender (but that is still pretty cool)), but touch screens are all the rage, why is it be so impossible to find one? Really, I set the search up with only anything between 15" and 30" with 8-bit colour as my parameters and got about 10 results. Thanks, David From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Jun 17 06:52:33 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 06:52:33 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] DIY laptop part 1: screen In-Reply-To: <20170616223230.555ae58d@ulgy_thing> References: <20170612012927.60569cfd@ulgy_thing> <20170616223230.555ae58d@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 3:32 AM, David Niklas wrote: >> start with http://panelook.com, get the part number which has the >> highest volume, then search specifically for that part number. > I found two good looking panels (I'm assuming that "high volume" means > in stock). One is very much in stock, the other not so. > Now I have the problem of not buying 10 of them... > There appears to be only one seller selling one at a time, but he is > charging double. > Come on self, think, you can be as smart as Luke! .... I hope .... > Aha, EBAY! there you go :) >> > 5. Preferably, it is a touchscreen. >> >> no chance. > Not that I really needed it (since I'd only use it for blender (but > that is still pretty cool)), but touch screens are all the rage, why > is it be so impossible to find one? totally different market (niche) and so they're damn expensive. do you see LCDs from Benq and LG that have, as *standard*, a touchpanel? > Really, I set the search up with only anything between 15" and 30" with > 8-bit colour as my parameters and got about 10 results. yyep. basically touchpanels are an electronic device that has to be extremely strong (thick glass) and so the cost can be *more* than the cost of the LCD behind it. only the mass-volume ones (2in-7in etc.) have reached pricing levels below that of LCDs. therefore it's a niche (specialist) market that has absolutely nothing to do with LCDs. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Jun 17 10:17:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 10:17:07 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:40 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > Bleh. It looked so pretty in my mind. ;-( i knoow... btw can you possibly investigate why, when you hit "reply", the ">"s are not added? > So different layers have different copper thickness. in a stack you tell the factory what thicknesses you want, as well as what material in between, and what thickness of that, too. so you get different capacitance on different layers. thus, the problem is: you cannot guarantee the impedance will be identical on different layers. so having differential pairs on different layers is the worst possible thing you could do.... *unless* you have access to PCB simulators. which are ultra-expensive. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Jun 17 10:19:24 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 10:19:24 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:44 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > So the PCB factory is not the party populating the board? correct. PCB manufacturing is a specialist task. PCB assembly is a specialist task. larger companies can be big enough to have both sets of specialists and equipment in-house. mike's factory is not one such company. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Jun 17 10:22:24 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 10:22:24 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: <20170616223034.1e4c4927@ulgy_thing> References: <20170616223034.1e4c4927@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 3:30 AM, David Niklas wrote: > How about a third? > I'm no EE (I'd like to be, but that's another story), so take this with > a grain of salt. > Use kapton tape to cover the holes. That will resist the heat the down > and up side being that you have to manually apply and remove it > afterwards and it will not leave a trace like epoxy so you can use the > VIA holes. nice idea... *thinks*... the holes are 6mil (0.15mm) wide. i would be concerned that tape would let air through, or would house an air bubble underneath. if epoxy resin is a standard technique that's been tried, tested and proven, i'd prefer it. l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat Jun 17 18:35:59 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 13:35:59 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 09:30:45 +0100 > ron hi please remember to cut context. there is 3 paragraphs > comprising several hundred words, repeated, followed by a single > sentence and then a single-sentence question. > > these last two sentences are the only relevant context: the rest of > the context you have forced over 400 people to re -read unnecessarily. I have not forced anyone to read anything. Anyone may ignore my emails. You know where to look. It is where there are no '>'. I prefere if others leave the full text in their emails. I prefere to not delete text in my own replies. I cannot make that decision about my replies? > > please consider the impact that you are having on the members of the > list by following the required etiquette which, by following it, i am > permitting you to be a member of this list. > > thank you for understanding and respecting the interaction rules of this list. > > l. > > On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 6:30 PM, wrote: > > >> > We should have libre software hdds and ram. > >> > >> Can you elaborate on that a bit? I don't understand what you mean. > > https://www.theverge.com/2015/2/16/8048243/nsa-hard-drive-firmware-virus-stuxnet > > > > > > > > > > Devices like hdd, ram, sd card have their own system software. > > You cannot access it and do not know what it can do. > > https://opencores.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lists at sumpfralle.de Sat Jun 17 19:14:53 2017 From: lists at sumpfralle.de (Lars Kruse) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 20:14:53 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] bunnie about riscv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170617201453.6c6b77bb@erker.lan> Hi Ron, Am Sat, 17 Jun 2017 13:35:59 -0400 schrieb ronwirring at Safe-mail.net: > [..] > I prefere if others leave the full text in their emails. > I prefere to not delete text in my own replies. > I cannot make that decision about my replies? I could image, that Luke would like the participants of this mailinglist to use a style similar to the one defined in RFC1985 ("Netiquette", see section 2.1.1): Be brief without being overly terse. When replying to a message, include enough original material to be understood but no more. It is extremely bad form to simply reply to a message by including all the previous message: edit out all the irrelevant material. Since Luke maintains this mailinglist, I find it to be acceptable, that he can define the communication policy of this list, if he prefers so. Specifically in this case he is following a widely used style - even though we are all aware of the fact, that there are different communities or contexts out there using very different styles with regard to quoting. Cheers, Lars From doark at mail.com Sat Jun 17 03:48:56 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 22:48:56 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <20170616224856.6525c9c7@ulgy_thing> On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 21:30:51 -0400 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 10:27:47PM -0400, David Niklas wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 22:50:20 +0100 > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:42 PM, Bill Kontos > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better ? > > > > > > They're not based on gnome (which in turn is based on GTK). that > > > alone is good enough reason. > > > > And GTK is bad because? > > If I were to write a graphical app in C wouldn't I *have* to use > > GTK? > > No. GTK is the Gimp toolkit, originally written for the GNU image > manipulation program. > > It uses (presumably) the X toolkit (I don't kow its name), which is the > low-level interface to sending and receiving the network packets for > the X protocol with the ICCC -- the inter-client communications > conventions, which goern communicataions with a window manager. (I > don't know how much of this is now obsolete i ws using X in the 80's, > and I gather it at least hs remained more or less compatible; there's a > lot less flexibility in X nowadays, as far as I cana tell) > > There's no reason other systems shouldn't be built directly on the X > toolkit. I've read that it's old, difficult to port programs/to/from other OSes or X to wayland, and outdated. Thus, I read from others that my choices are QT, GTK, the out dated and ugly Tk or the very rare, yet pretty Fox. > Qt, is presumably another such system. > > And the problems with GTK is that the developers have mpved on to > another major release that, I'm told, isn't very compatible and old > code is dying. It's another of the systems that have been forked. I > don't know how well the old release is being maintained. > > -- hendrik > Isn't that what will happen with X as soon as people get fanatical about wayland like they have done with systemd? Thanks, David From doark at mail.com Sat Jun 17 14:39:36 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 09:39:36 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> On Wed, 31 May 2017 00:16:42 +0200 sam via arm-netbook wrote: > On 30/05/17 22:48, doark at mail.com wrote: > > Well, I'd put ten dollars to a campaign like this without a HW reward. > > I'm assuming that beings that there are so many Mali GPUs and hacker > > boards out there that other people would also be very interested in > > this. What would I need to know to do this? > > Quick, point me to the books! > > No, really, I would do such a thing, I don't have a lot to loose, > > though for free I'd be taking my time... > > But still, I'd need an education. > > > > > Start from the existing code http://limadriver.org/ > I understand that I understand very little about this process so please read this with hearty laugh prepared. Whereas other older people have gone from simple reverse engineering projects to more difficult ones I have come into the game late when all the projects are the most difficult. Let me assume that the GPU is a RISC model and uses 8-bit instructions. Then it would have a total of 255 instructions (the 256th would be all zeros and be a no-op because the wires on the line need a way to tell if they have an instruction on them and that is the most power conservative I can think of). Now let use assume that if the signed bit is set that the GPU receives an instruction to set an internal option. All that I could probably learn from the lima driver and also some idea of how the 2D rendering engine works and what it's instructions are. Now the questions come up: 1. What are the options for the 3D engine? 2. What are the instructions for the 3D engine? 3. How do the 2D, 3D, and video (de|en)code engine fit together? To sum it up, I don't think it's as simple as downloading the code, signing up for the mailing list, and coding. It might be, someone could have left full specs laying around waiting to be turned into mock-up code and then real code; but I doubt it. That's not to say I will not try, but I just don't see this as a very productive path. I suffer from the black box discouragement effect. Someone builds a black box, then a bigger black box, then an even larger black box; eventually no one knows how it works inside, even the people who designed it understand only a relatively small part. Sincerely, David From vkontogpls at gmail.com Sat Jun 17 19:50:39 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 21:50:39 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: <20170616224856.6525c9c7@ulgy_thing> References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> <20170616224856.6525c9c7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: > Isn't that what will happen with X as soon as people get fanatical about > wayland like they have done with systemd? > > Thanks, > David > Nobody is getting fanatical over wayland. Wayland solves real problems with a rather small disturbance( drivers are almost the same, only applications are affected) and it has some sort of xwayland fallback mode in case it doesn't work which worked like a charm on the case of k3b for me. gtk supports it pretty well now and qt is working on it too. It was turned on by default on the current fedora release so as you can probably guess it's a long way from ready but it's improving really fast, and at least as far as gnome apps are concerned they work relatively well( gparted being an exception). From calmstorm at posteo.de Sat Jun 17 19:53:47 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 14:53:47 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> On 06/17/2017 09:39 AM, David Niklas wrote: > On Wed, 31 May 2017 00:16:42 +0200 > sam via arm-netbook wrote: >> On 30/05/17 22:48, doark at mail.com wrote: >>> Well, I'd put ten dollars to a campaign like this without a HW reward. >>> I'm assuming that beings that there are so many Mali GPUs and hacker >>> boards out there that other people would also be very interested in >>> this. What would I need to know to do this? >>> Quick, point me to the books! >>> No, really, I would do such a thing, I don't have a lot to loose, >>> though for free I'd be taking my time... >>> But still, I'd need an education. >>> >>> >> Start from the existing code http://limadriver.org/ >> > I understand that I understand very little about this process so please > read this with hearty laugh prepared. > > Whereas other older people have gone from simple reverse engineering > projects to more difficult ones I have come into the game late when all > the projects are the most difficult. > Let me assume that the GPU is a RISC model and uses 8-bit instructions. > Then it would have a total of 255 instructions (the 256th would be all > zeros and be a no-op because the wires on the line need a way to tell if > they have an instruction on them and that is the most power conservative > I can think of). > Now let use assume that if the signed bit is set that the GPU receives an > instruction to set an internal option. > All that I could probably learn from the lima driver and also some idea > of how the 2D rendering engine works and what it's instructions are. > Now the questions come up: > 1. What are the options for the 3D engine? > 2. What are the instructions for the 3D engine? > 3. How do the 2D, 3D, and video (de|en)code engine fit together? > > To sum it up, I don't think it's as simple as downloading the code, > signing up for the mailing list, and coding. It might be, someone could > have left full specs laying around waiting to be turned into mock-up code > and then real code; but I doubt it. > That's not to say I will not try, but I just don't see this as a very > productive path. > > I suffer from the black box discouragement effect. Someone builds a black > box, then a bigger black box, then an even larger black box; eventually > no one knows how it works inside, even the people who designed it > understand only a relatively small part. IF you can figure out how to reverse engineer the 3d engine, ikcl would be very happy I am sure. But I get the feeling from him that it is nearly impossible to do this. Not sure why... but yeah... RK3288 with 3d engine would be cool I will admit that. or an even later more compatible processor. Still, I think you have an uphill battle for that. ps, I don't have much reverse engineering experience at all, so what I am suggesting, could be easier or harder. I just don't know. xD > Sincerely, > David > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Sun Jun 18 00:22:07 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 19:22:07 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: [trinity-devel] TDE Fundraiser In-Reply-To: <20170616224856.6525c9c7@ulgy_thing> References: <277ffe990bdea8a5783bad8c960ee2ff.squirrel@vali.starlink.edu> <20170610222747.650f9928@ulgy_thing> <20170613013051.GA9423@topoi.pooq.com> <20170616224856.6525c9c7@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <20170617232207.GA18891@topoi.pooq.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 10:48:56PM -0400, David Niklas wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 21:30:51 -0400 > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 10:27:47PM -0400, David Niklas wrote: > > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 22:50:20 +0100 > > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:42 PM, Bill Kontos > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there any specific reasons as to why this is better ? > > > > > > > > They're not based on gnome (which in turn is based on GTK). that > > > > alone is good enough reason. > > > > > > And GTK is bad because? > > > If I were to write a graphical app in C wouldn't I *have* to use > > > GTK? > > > > No. GTK is the Gimp toolkit, originally written for the GNU image > > manipulation program. > > > > It uses (presumably) the X toolkit (I don't kow its name), which is the > > low-level interface to sending and receiving the network packets for > > the X protocol with the ICCC -- the inter-client communications > > conventions, which goern communicataions with a window manager. (I > > don't know how much of this is now obsolete i ws using X in the 80's, > > and I gather it at least hs remained more or less compatible; there's a > > lot less flexibility in X nowadays, as far as I cana tell) > > > > There's no reason other systems shouldn't be built directly on the X > > toolkit. > > I've read that it's old, difficult to port programs/to/from other OSes > or X to wayland, and outdated. Thus, I read from others that my choices > are QT, GTK, the out dated and ugly Tk or the very rare, yet pretty Fox. There's FLTK, too. > > > Qt, is presumably another such system. > > > > And the problems with GTK is that the developers have mpved on to > > another major release that, I'm told, isn't very compatible and old > > code is dying. It's another of the systems that have been forked. I > > don't know how well the old release is being maintained. > > > > -- hendrik > > > Isn't that what will happen with X as soon as people get fanatical about > wayland like they have done with systemd? X has already been forked. That's why we now have xorg instead of xfree. -- hendrik From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 18 07:09:40 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 07:09:40 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 7:53 PM, zap wrote: > IF you can figure out how to reverse engineer the 3d engine, ikcl would > be very happy I am sure. that used to be the case but is no longer true. please read section 2.5 of the bill of ethics before proceeding further with this thread: https://www.titanians.org/the-bill-of-ethics/ ARM's illegal and unethical activity which destroyed luc verhaegen's career and reputation - including several counts of slander as well as blackmail of the company funding his reverse-engineering efforts - was the last straw. if we proceed to reverse-engineer MALI, logically it results in people buying more ARM products. if people buy more ARM products, logically it results in more money (resources) going to support ARM's illegal and unethical actions. any action which is taken that results in support or endorsement of unethical actions is, logically, itself, unethical therefore, logically and plainly put: unless ARM's attitude changes the reverse-engineering of MALI is itself an unethical act. so it's a simple chain of logical reasoning based on ethical principles. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 18 07:27:51 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 07:27:51 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 6:35 PM, wrote: >> ron hi please remember to cut context. there is 3 paragraphs >> comprising several hundred words, repeated, followed by a single >> sentence and then a single-sentence question. >> >> these last two sentences are the only relevant context: the rest of >> the context you have forced over 400 people to re -read unnecessarily. > > > > I have not forced anyone to read anything. ron: there are over 400 people on this list. many of them receive hundreds of messages per day. they read them all. they do not know that you are violating the rules of the list until they begin to read your message. when they find, after several seconds of scrolling down, that their time has been completely wasted because nothing has been added, they are going to be pissed. > Anyone may ignore my emails. ron: if the mailing list administrator tells you that you're disobeying the rules of interaction which put people to significant inconvenience, do you believe that it is ok to respond with such a sentence? > You know where to look. It is where there are no '>'. and how long does it take to do that? it takes a long time, ron. people are forced to scroll down for a significant amount of time. if they have a hundred or several hundred messages to read each day, and they are forced to scroll down more than is necessary only to find that there was nothing new added, because there is one person who does not respect the rules which make their lives easier, how long do you think they are going to continue to contribute to that llist? > I prefere if others leave the full text in their emails. that is fine if you are interacting privately: it is not fine when you are interacting with 400 people. you have been asked multiple times to respect the rules of the list. > I prefere to not delete text in my own replies. your personal preferences are not relevant when it comes to interacting with 400 other people. > I cannot make that decision about my replies? yes you can, because you are being requested to do so by the mailing list administrator. out of respect for others, you are being requested to follow the rules of interaction set for this list. you do not set the rules for this list: i set the rules for this list. i get the impression that you are not really listening or respecting what i am saying, ron. that therefore forces me to escalate matters. if you do not respond indicating that you intend to respect the rules of this list (standard netiquette) then reluctantly i will be forced to escalate to moderation of your messages until such time as you do listen. this will place a huge burden of extra work onto me, as for every single message that you send i will receive a notification, then i will be forced to go to a web interface, then i will be forced to read and review your message in full, and then either approve or reject i, writing a review each and every time explaining why your message is being rejected, should it be rejected. do you, through not listening to what you are being told, *genuinely* wish to force me to take such action? what do you think the implications would be of forcing me to take such action to protect this list and its members? would you agree that it would be a good idea for you to say "whoops i'm sorry, i understand now that this is serious, i will listen and follow your advice so that i do not inconvenience so many people" ? l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 18 07:49:08 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 07:49:08 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 7:14 PM, Lars Kruse wrote: > Hi Ron, > > > Am Sat, 17 Jun 2017 13:35:59 -0400 > schrieb ronwirring at Safe-mail.net: > >> [..] >> I prefere if others leave the full text in their emails. >> I prefere to not delete text in my own replies. >> I cannot make that decision about my replies? > > I could image, that Luke would like the participants of this mailinglist to use > a style similar to the one defined in RFC1985 ("Netiquette", see section 2.1.1): https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt RFC 1855 not 1955. took a few minutes to find it. section 2.1.1 is a little dated, but 95% relevant. interestingly it contains no specific advice for mailing list interaction. this example contains good advice on mailing list etiquette: http://linux.sgms-centre.com/misc/netiquette.php please read - and follow and adhere to - section 9, ron. please also follow the link which leads here and read it: http://howto-pages.org/posting_style/ > Be brief without being overly terse. When replying to a message, > include enough original material to be understood but no more. It > is extremely bad form to simply reply to a message by including > all the previous message: edit out all the irrelevant material. > > > Since Luke maintains this mailinglist, I find it to be acceptable, that he > can define the communication policy of this list, if he prefers so. i do. i used to be quite lax about it but i feel it is becoming important. > Specifically in this case he is following a widely used style - even though we > are all aware of the fact, that there are different communities or contexts out > there using very different styles with regard to quoting. for a "chatty" list such as a support self-help (e.g. alcoholics anonymous) group, top-posting would be the norm as most people would interact with either single-sentence (top-posted) replies of encouragement, or they would write massive walls-of-text to which it would be typically be perfectly fine to top-post. this list is not such a list. this is a technical list and it can get very busy and very complex very quickly. following interaction rules that have been developed over many decades for technical lists would be a good idea. http://howto-pages.org/posting_style/ l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 18 08:05:39 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 08:05:39 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: when i began a property business i read several books on the subject. one of them had this wonderful quirky advice to view 100 houses before putting any money down. i booked several viewings a day with multiple estate agents, spending at most 10 minutes in each. after about 80 houses i came across one that was very strange: the price was much lower than it was for comparable houses that i'd seen. without having viewed so many houses i would not have known this. this same lesson i applied to the development of the EOMA68 standard. i spent several years studying dozens of successful SoCs, looking for the common factors between them all. several iterations had to be made to get it right. if we are to develop a standard i feel that it is imperative to do a similar analysis of what constitutes a successful software libre project. this task isn't actually very difficult: it's almost mechanical and purely logical. but i feel that it is very important that anything that goes into the standard is backed up by a heck of a lot of evidence that whatever advice is in it is demonstrably and consistently long-term successful across not one but *multiple* projects. l. On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 6:47 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > what are the defining (common) characteristics of the following > high-profile long-running strategic free software projects, and, of > the superset of those combined characteristics, which projects LACK > those characteristics? > > * Samba > * Wine > * ReactOS > * Python > * Perl > * Exim4 > * sendmail > * Linux Kernel > * GNU Projects (as defined by that devel.html page) > * Webkit > * Blink > * Firefox > * Debian > * Ubuntu > * Slackware > * systemd > * mysqldb > * mariadb > * openoffice > * libreoffice > * X11 > * Xorg > * Kerberos > * Heimdal > * OpenLDAP > > make a list of all the things that those projects have in common, > then, after making that list, identify the things on that list which > individual projects *do not* have. > > i will then provide you with some illustrations of events that have > occurred within those teams which have been extremely detrimental to > the users of those packages. > > we will then cross-reference the things that are MISSING from those > projects with the detrimental consequences, to see if there is any > correlation. > > if you can think of any other long-standing high-profile projects > which should be on that list, feel free to add them. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Sun Jun 18 09:16:38 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 11:16:38 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> Message-ID: > if we proceed to reverse-engineer MALI, logically it results in > people buying more ARM products. > > if people buy more ARM products, logically it results in more money > (resources) going to support ARM's illegal and unethical actions. > > any action which is taken that results in support or endorsement of > unethical actions is, logically, itself, unethical > > therefore, logically and plainly put: unless ARM's attitude changes > the reverse-engineering of MALI is itself an unethical act. So someone buying an nvidia card and using nouveau with it is by your logic unethical ? Tell that to rms he recommends old nvidia cards :P Besides I fail to see what else apart form more sales could convince arm to open their drivers. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sun Jun 18 09:25:50 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 04:25:50 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> Message-ID: Aftermarket devices fail to support original dev's the same way used books fail to support original authors, so that is also a consideration. On 6/18/17, Bill Kontos wrote: >> if we proceed to reverse-engineer MALI, logically it results in >> people buying more ARM products. >> >> if people buy more ARM products, logically it results in more money >> (resources) going to support ARM's illegal and unethical actions. >> >> any action which is taken that results in support or endorsement of >> unethical actions is, logically, itself, unethical >> >> therefore, logically and plainly put: unless ARM's attitude changes >> the reverse-engineering of MALI is itself an unethical act. > > So someone buying an nvidia card and using nouveau with it is by your > logic unethical ? Tell that to rms he recommends old nvidia cards :P > Besides I fail to see what else apart form more sales could convince > arm to open their drivers. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 18 15:32:53 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 15:32:53 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 9:16 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: >> if we proceed to reverse-engineer MALI, logically it results in >> people buying more ARM products. >> >> if people buy more ARM products, logically it results in more money >> (resources) going to support ARM's illegal and unethical actions. >> >> any action which is taken that results in support or endorsement of >> unethical actions is, logically, itself, unethical >> >> therefore, logically and plainly put: unless ARM's attitude changes >> the reverse-engineering of MALI is itself an unethical act. > > So someone buying an nvidia card and using nouveau with it is by your > logic unethical ? how did you gain that impression from a logical chain of "ANDed" statements which began with some illegal and unethical behaviour by ARM? i note from the above context that you cut off the absolutely critical part of the chain of ANDed statements. you specifically cut the one *right* at the beginning, which was the illegal and unethical behaviour that ARM committed against luc verhaegen. did you not read that part, or were you under the impression that it was not part of the chain of logical reasoning? has NVIDIA engaged in similar illegal or unethical practices to that which ARM carried out against luc verhaegen, which we know were and are sanctioned by the CTO of ARM? l. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Sun Jun 18 17:03:29 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 19:03:29 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> Message-ID: > > has NVIDIA engaged in similar illegal or unethical practices to that > which ARM carried out against luc verhaegen, which we know were and > are sanctioned by the CTO of ARM? Sorry I chopped it off to keep the conclusion only. Nvidia switched to requiring signed binary firmware with a blown fuse for any maxwell or newer card to run effectively blocking the work by the libre driver and delaying the release of the signed binaries to 2 years after the cards are actually released to the market. So they are actively blocking reverse engineering. From calmstorm at posteo.de Sun Jun 18 17:56:20 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 12:56:20 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> Message-ID: <5946B0B4.4010309@posteo.de> On 06/18/2017 02:09 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 7:53 PM, zap wrote: > >> IF you can figure out how to reverse engineer the 3d engine, ikcl would >> be very happy I am sure. > that used to be the case but is no longer true. please read section > 2.5 of the bill of ethics before proceeding further with this thread: > https://www.titanians.org/the-bill-of-ethics/ > > ARM's illegal and unethical activity which destroyed luc verhaegen's > career and reputation - including several counts of slander as well as > blackmail of the company funding his reverse-engineering efforts - was > the last straw. > > if we proceed to reverse-engineer MALI, logically it results in > people buying more ARM products. > > if people buy more ARM products, logically it results in more money > (resources) going to support ARM's illegal and unethical actions. > > any action which is taken that results in support or endorsement of > unethical actions is, logically, itself, unethical > > therefore, logically and plainly put: unless ARM's attitude changes > the reverse-engineering of MALI is itself an unethical act. > > so it's a simple chain of logical reasoning based on ethical principles. > > l. Hmm... just out of curiosity, what is your plan then? to make your own processors from lowrisc? its not a bad idea, but I think until that is an option... we should use still use some form of arm. Unless you know of other options. Just curious but what other options are there? Also, I think that makes it more reasonable to reverse engineer their products just to piss Arm off. They don't like their products being reverse engineered anyways... so why not do that to annoy them for their unethical acts? Besides it could make them realize that their evil actions need to be changed. Also, the developer who was blackmailed may be pleased by this course of action. Its not my favorite idea, but its better than letting mali run unchecked. In my opinion. You are of course free to disagree but that's my stance. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 18 20:14:09 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 20:14:09 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: <5946B0B4.4010309@posteo.de> References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> <5946B0B4.4010309@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 5:56 PM, zap wrote: > Hmm... just out of curiosity, what is your plan then? to make your own > processors from lowrisc? replying in part to bill here as well: yes. and to use MIAOW for OpenCL and ORSOC GPU for actual rendering. it won't be perfect but it will be a start. bill: nvidia are in the difficult position of likely having been pressurised by governments to lock down what is effectively viewed in military terms as a a weapon (the rest of us just call it a "GPU"). if you recall many years ago, iraq i believe it was purchased thousands of sony PS1s to make a supercomputer. as there is an ongoing arms race in that regard it is only the latest processors which are likely to fall under, for example, U.S. BXPA Weapons-Grade "Munitions" classification. given the fact that it is after a couple of years that the source code is no longer DRM-restricted, we have a correlation that fits with the ongoing evidence. now, as long as a replacement (libre) processor is well below the "state of the art" but is otherwise perfectly acceptable for mass-volume electronics purposes, it will fall outside of this potential trap. > its not a bad idea, but I think until that is an option... we should use > still use some form of arm. indeed. it may sound strange but when there is no other option (and by that i mean *exhaustive* analysis finds no other option) i do not mind "crossing the line" into what would traditionally be viewed by software libre purists as "unacceptable territory" *IF* in doing so it is part of a long-term strategy to *REPLACE* the very thing being leveraged [to make money etc. etc.] for example: many software libre supporters flatly refuse to even *install* Windows NT... but if i had taken that attitude i would not have broken the NT Domains protocol, over 20 years ago. it is the same here: > Unless you know of other options. nope, i don't. always looking though. > Just curious but what other options are there? Also, I think that makes > it more reasonable to reverse engineer their products just to piss Arm > off. They don't like their products being reverse engineered anyways... > so why not do that to annoy them for their unethical acts? Besides it > could make them realize that their evil actions need to be changed. and remove the one thing which would otherwise teach them a lesson? i see both perspectives: i just believe that they are sufficiently arrogant in their power and beliefs that it is unlikely that they will change their minds. they've been told by their engineers countless times. they've been told by users countless times. they've been told by businesses who would otherwise buy more of their products countless times. > Its not my favorite idea, but its better than letting mali run > unchecked. In my opinion. yehyeh, i hear ya. > You are of course free to disagree but that's my stance. no it's good to hear. thx zap. l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sun Jun 18 21:09:39 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 16:09:39 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette Message-ID: From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook- > On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 6:35 PM, wrote: > > do you, through not listening to what you are being told, *genuinely* > wish to force me to take such action? No. I maintain that I prefer an email to display all previous pieces of information. From bms.debian at barwap.com Sun Jun 18 21:59:27 2017 From: bms.debian at barwap.com (Brendan Sleight) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 21:59:27 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 6:35 PM, wrote: > No. I maintain that I prefer an email to display all previous No doubt you do, but this is a community. “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” - Spock Luke - I would be grateful if you could reduce the members on this list to those who can follow the RFC. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 18 22:07:25 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 22:07:25 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 9:09 PM, wrote: >> do you, through not listening to what you are being told, *genuinely* >> wish to force me to take such action? > > No. I maintain that I prefer an email to display all previous > pieces of information. ah. *deep breath*. i'm very very sorry to have to inform you ron that you don't have thar right. you as well as everyone else are guests of this list. so it is with deep regret that your answer forces me to place your email address under moderation until you can agree to the rules of the list. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 18 22:15:55 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 22:15:55 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Brendan Sleight wrote: >>> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 6:35 PM, wrote: >> No. I maintain that I prefer an email to display all previous > > No doubt you do, but this is a community. “Logic clearly dictates that > the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” - Spock it's a leetle more complex than that, brendan, but... yeah. > Luke - I would be grateful if you could reduce the members on this > list to those who can follow the RFC. i am reluctant to take such draconian action without going through intermediate less drastic steps, explained at each and every stage to give him an opportunity to understand fully the gravity and consequences (inconvenience to others), so i've placed his messages under moderation as an intermediate step. that makes for a hell of a lot of otherwise unnecessary work for me but that's just how these things go. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Sun Jun 18 23:02:01 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 18:02:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> <5946B0B4.4010309@posteo.de> Message-ID: <5946F859.4070409@posteo.de> On 06/18/2017 03:14 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 5:56 PM, zap wrote: > >> Hmm... just out of curiosity, what is your plan then? to make your own >> processors from lowrisc? > replying in part to bill here as well: yes. and to use MIAOW for > OpenCL and ORSOC GPU for actual rendering. it won't be perfect but it > will be a start. > > bill: nvidia are in the difficult position of likely having been > pressurised by governments to lock down what is effectively viewed in > military terms as a a weapon (the rest of us just call it a "GPU"). > if you recall many years ago, iraq i believe it was purchased > thousands of sony PS1s to make a supercomputer. > > as there is an ongoing arms race in that regard it is only the latest > processors which are likely to fall under, for example, U.S. BXPA > Weapons-Grade "Munitions" classification. given the fact that it is > after a couple of years that the source code is no longer > DRM-restricted, we have a correlation that fits with the ongoing > evidence. > > now, as long as a replacement (libre) processor is well below the > "state of the art" but is otherwise perfectly acceptable for > mass-volume electronics purposes, it will fall outside of this > potential trap. Please use lowrisc if you do this option, they already are libre. Their stuff is licensed under gpl3. That should also mean its easier to, load/less risk of idiots trying to but proprietary crap into it and get away with it like google does. bleh... google is so awful. >> its not a bad idea, but I think until that is an option... we should use >> still use some form of arm. > indeed. it may sound strange but when there is no other option (and > by that i mean *exhaustive* analysis finds no other option) i do not > mind "crossing the line" into what would traditionally be viewed by > software libre purists as "unacceptable territory" *IF* in doing so it > is part of a long-term strategy to *REPLACE* the very thing being > leveraged [to make money etc. etc.] > > for example: many software libre supporters flatly refuse to even > *install* Windows NT... but if i had taken that attitude i would not > have broken the NT Domains protocol, over 20 years ago. > > it is the same here: I am glad wine was created, too bad that I cannot plan windows 95 games through wine yet... completely I mean. >> Unless you know of other options. > nope, i don't. always looking though. That is good. > >> Just curious but what other options are there? Also, I think that makes >> it more reasonable to reverse engineer their products just to piss Arm >> off. They don't like their products being reverse engineered anyways... >> so why not do that to annoy them for their unethical acts? Besides it >> could make them realize that their evil actions need to be changed. > and remove the one thing which would otherwise teach them a lesson? > > i see both perspectives: i just believe that they are sufficiently > arrogant in their power and beliefs that it is unlikely that they will > change their minds. they've been told by their engineers countless > times. they've been told by users countless times. they've been told > by businesses who would otherwise buy more of their products countless > times. Dunno, I thought it was a good idea. > >> Its not my favorite idea, but its better than letting mali run >> unchecked. In my opinion. > yehyeh, i hear ya. > >> You are of course free to disagree but that's my stance. > no it's good to hear. thx zap. > > l. Tell me what you think of lowrisc when you get a chance. I mean as a base for your processors. heh. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 18 23:45:09 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 23:45:09 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: <5946F859.4070409@posteo.de> References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> <5946B0B4.4010309@posteo.de> <5946F859.4070409@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 11:02 PM, zap wrote: > Tell me what you think of lowrisc when you get a chance. I mean as a > base for your processors. heh. i feel that the lowrisc team fit better with the ethics of what i would like to see be achieved (note deliberate use of third person, i.e. that i am not personally tying a personal egoistic agenda to or correlation with the desire to see success). i noted in particular that the lowrisc team has set up as a CIC. that's a big plus. technically i am particularly impressed with the concept of using a 32-bit RISCV for GPIO, which they call "minion cores". bitbanging isn't really bitbanging any more if there's an entire CPU dedicated to it. the advantage of their approach is that you no longer require complex multiplexing hardware on the GPIO (as is normally done, with dedicated hardware blocks for each I/O function). you simply... load a different program into the minioncore and the pins which e.g. were previously I2C are now UART. or some-other-future-as-yet-unspecified-or-unforseen-I/O-interface. upgrading to the latest version of SDMMC is therefore dead easy: just write a new program for the minion core. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 18 23:56:20 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 23:56:20 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] u-boot A20 sunxi, added SPL dual MMC boot Message-ID: http://git.rhombus-tech.net/?p=u-boot.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/sunxi it's a feature that's present in quite a lot of versions of u-boot but not in the sunxi one: i added a means to check *two* MMC slots in the early SPL loader. the problem without such a feature is: you can only boot from one MMC slot, even if you compile u-boot with support for two MMC slots... because the early SPL loader *only recognises loading u-boot from one MMC slot*. for those people not familiar with the A20 boot process: http://linux-sunxi.org/BROM#A10.2FA20 the BROM loads from a very specific sector of either MMC0 or MMC2 (in that order). maximum code size: 16k bytes. loading a full u-boot is not possible so u-boot has to be boot-strapped (aka SPL loader). the *existing* sunxi SPL loader *only* supports loading from a *single* MMC card slot. l. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From fivepointpalmexplodingheart at gmail.com Sun Jun 18 23:57:50 2017 From: fivepointpalmexplodingheart at gmail.com (Andrew Bolin) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 08:57:50 +1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working Message-ID: > > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2017 15:02:07 +0100 > From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > it was discovered that the VIAs underneath the pads for the JAE DC3 > Micro-HDMI connector are sucking the solder paste in and down, leaving > the pins not properly connected. > ... if anyone knows any tricks i would appreciate hearing them. > Can you enlarge the solder mask for these pads, thus providing enough solder to both fill the via and make the connection? This is the standard recommendation when using thermal pads / thermal vias. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jun 19 00:27:18 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 00:27:18 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 11:57 PM, Andrew Bolin wrote: > Can you enlarge the solder mask for these pads, thus providing enough > solder to both fill the via and make the connection? > > This is the standard recommendation when using thermal pads / thermal vias. indeed. this was the recommendation of mike, at the factory. there is however veery little room to do that. buut... *deep breath*... a closer examination of the 10 samples shows that the DC3 connector is more complex than i initially thought. the 4 through-hole ground connectors on the metal case are not just simple through-hole pins: the two back ones have an additional lip which i did not anticipate being there. looking at the datasheet this "lip" is supposed to be in direct contact with the board (not down a hole or over the edge of the PCB or anything) but that does not explain why the outer set of pins are in contact with the PCB but the inner set are not. the only thing that i can think of is: either the connector was damaged during (as part of) its installation with a heat-gun, or it was already damaged and the outer pins bent downwards. i'll have to inspect the samples i have here more closely. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Mon Jun 19 02:06:10 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 21:06:10 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> <5946B0B4.4010309@posteo.de> <5946F859.4070409@posteo.de> Message-ID: <59472382.6000408@posteo.de> On 06/18/2017 06:45 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 11:02 PM, zap wrote: > >> Tell me what you think of lowrisc when you get a chance. I mean as a >> base for your processors. heh. > i feel that the lowrisc team fit better with the ethics of what i > would like to see be achieved (note deliberate use of third person, > i.e. that i am not personally tying a personal egoistic agenda to or > correlation with the desire to see success). > > i noted in particular that the lowrisc team has set up as a CIC. > that's a big plus. > > technically i am particularly impressed with the concept of using a > 32-bit RISCV for GPIO, which they call "minion cores". bitbanging > isn't really bitbanging any more if there's an entire CPU dedicated to > it. the advantage of their approach is that you no longer require > complex multiplexing hardware on the GPIO (as is normally done, with > dedicated hardware blocks for each I/O function). you simply... load > a different program into the minioncore and the pins which e.g. were > previously I2C are now UART. or > some-other-future-as-yet-unspecified-or-unforseen-I/O-interface. > upgrading to the latest version of SDMMC is therefore dead easy: just > write a new program for the minion core. According to the lowrisc website though, you can make a 64 bit processor if you so choose though. http://www.lowrisc.org/about/ I am sure you know this, but I just hope you understand that better possibilities exist. ;) I Wonder when they are going to crowdfund though... > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jun 19 02:39:47 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 02:39:47 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: <59472382.6000408@posteo.de> References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> <5946B0B4.4010309@posteo.de> <5946F859.4070409@posteo.de> <59472382.6000408@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:06 AM, zap wrote: > According to the lowrisc website though, you can make a 64 bit processor > if you so choose though. yes. the minioncores would be on the same bus, not requiring any kind of cache coherency with either each other or with the main 64-bit CPU(s), either doing DMA writes (on their own) or responding to bus memory reads/writes in order appear as memory-addressable peripherals. > I am sure you know this, but I just hope you understand that better > possibilities exist. ;) you may be misunderstanding that the purpose of 32-bit minion cores is *in addition* to there being one or more main processor(s) which are SMP or NUMA, which themselves have a bus width (32, 64, 128 bit) that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the minion-cores being 32-bit. > I Wonder when they are going to crowdfund though... i get the general impression that they're quite happy to focus on development as opposed to raising funds to create an actual processor. each task requires different skills, time and effort. if the team focussed on crowdfunding that would be a serious distraction from their development efforts. this therefore is an opportunity to create a crowd-funded processor which utilises their expertise. the one main thing which i could really do with is a DDR or other high-speed memory interface that is proven... and compatible with the GPL. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Mon Jun 19 03:17:24 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 22:17:24 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> <5946B0B4.4010309@posteo.de> <5946F859.4070409@posteo.de> <59472382.6000408@posteo.de> Message-ID: <59473434.7080500@posteo.de> On 06/18/2017 09:39 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 2:06 AM, zap wrote: > >> According to the lowrisc website though, you can make a 64 bit processor >> if you so choose though. > yes. the minioncores would be on the same bus, not requiring any > kind of cache coherency with either each other or with the main 64-bit > CPU(s), either doing DMA writes (on their own) or responding to bus > memory reads/writes in order appear as memory-addressable peripherals. > >> I am sure you know this, but I just hope you understand that better >> possibilities exist. ;) > you may be misunderstanding that the purpose of 32-bit minion cores > is *in addition* to there being one or more main processor(s) which > are SMP or NUMA, which themselves have a bus width (32, 64, 128 bit) > that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the minion-cores > being 32-bit. > >> I Wonder when they are going to crowdfund though... > i get the general impression that they're quite happy to focus on > development as opposed to raising funds to create an actual processor. > each task requires different skills, time and effort. if the team > focussed on crowdfunding that would be a serious distraction from > their development efforts. > > this therefore is an opportunity to create a crowd-funded processor > which utilises their expertise. the one main thing which i could > really do with is a DDR or other high-speed memory interface that is > proven... and compatible with the GPL. I guess I misunderstood then on both counts. well this is odd. xD > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From jbn at forestfield.org Mon Jun 19 04:58:53 2017 From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2017 22:58:53 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Reverse engineering for freedom is a fine use of non-free software In-Reply-To: References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> <5946B0B4.4010309@posteo.de> Message-ID: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > indeed. it may sound strange but when there is no other option (and > by that i mean *exhaustive* analysis finds no other option) i do not > mind "crossing the line" into what would traditionally be viewed by > software libre purists as "unacceptable territory" *IF* in doing so it > is part of a long-term strategy to *REPLACE* the very thing being > leveraged [to make money etc. etc.] Richard Stallman (whose objection to non-free software should require no explanation) concurs, he has long said that installing and running non-free software is okay for the purpose of making a free replacement (see https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/is-ever-good-use-nonfree-program.html for his essay on this which includes a description of the limits of this methodology and rationale). Relatedly, he also has told University audiences that they should have reverse engineering courses (see https://audio-video.gnu.org/ for recordings of his many speeches). I agree with him on both points for the same reasons. After all, once the reverse engineering is complete the free replacement should suffice to do the practical jobs and then the non-free, user-subjugating components should be removed in favor of using the free replacement. > for example: many software libre supporters flatly refuse to even > *install* Windows NT... but if i had taken that attitude i would not > have broken the NT Domains protocol, over 20 years ago. I imagine this was and is also true for the Samba team. From calmstorm at posteo.de Mon Jun 19 17:08:45 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 12:08:45 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5947F70D.7060401@posteo.de> On 06/18/2017 04:59 PM, Brendan Sleight wrote: >>> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 6:35 PM, wrote: >> No. I maintain that I prefer an email to display all previous > No doubt you do, but this is a community. “Logic clearly dictates that > the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” - Spock > > Luke - I would be grateful if you could reduce the members on this > list to those who can follow the RFC. I will follow the rules now if you want, I just didn't know what they all were. That's all. I should only keep previous messages that are relevant right? Just clarifying. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jun 19 17:36:08 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 17:36:08 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: <5947F70D.7060401@posteo.de> References: <5947F70D.7060401@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 5:08 PM, zap wrote: > On 06/18/2017 04:59 PM, Brendan Sleight wrote: >>>> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 6:35 PM, wrote: >>> No. I maintain that I prefer an email to display all previous >> No doubt you do, but this is a community. “Logic clearly dictates that >> the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” - Spock >> >> Luke - I would be grateful if you could reduce the members on this >> list to those who can follow the RFC. > > I will follow the rules now if you want, I just didn't know what they > all were. That's all. no problem zap. btw zap also didn't remove extraneous context (in his last message to the list) so i asked him also to respect context-cutting (aka "trimming"): http://linux.sgms-centre.com/misc/netiquette.php#toppost Posting a "me too" comment at the bottom of a 100+ line message is no better because people have to scroll all the way down through 100+ lines they've already read in order to see your one-liner. One word comes to mind for that: frustrating. The generally accepted "right way" of doing things is called "inline posting", whereby you insert your comments straight after that on which you are commenting, having stripped unnecessary text from the original quoted text. The end result is something which makes much more sense because it reads like a conversation. > I should only keep previous messages that are relevant right? previous *bits* of a message that are relevant: it's called "trimming". thanks for agreeing to follow the rules. ron: if zap can agree immediately once he understands that it's inconveniencing people, is there a good reason (which benefits the project) why you do not wish to? l. From vincent.legoll at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 17:45:55 2017 From: vincent.legoll at gmail.com (Vincent Legoll) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 18:45:55 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: References: <5947F70D.7060401@posteo.de> Message-ID: +1 and kudos to people agreeing to follow the netiquette & ML posting rules. On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > The generally accepted "right way" of doing things is called "inline > posting", whereby you insert your comments straight after that on > which you are commenting, having stripped unnecessary text from the > original quoted text. The end result is something which makes much > more sense because it reads like a conversation. I'd add that you should also put a blank line between the context you keep (the quote) and your answer / reaction to it, as that is also helpful to make it more quickly readable by others. Thanks -- Vincent Legoll From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jun 19 17:50:47 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 17:50:47 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: References: <5947F70D.7060401@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Vincent Legoll wrote: > +1 and kudos to people agreeing to follow the netiquette & ML posting > rules. > >> [snipped unnecessary context and adding this sentence to indicate >> that that action has been taken] > > I'd add that you should also put a blank line between the context you > keep (the quote) and your answer / reaction to it, as that is also helpful > to make it more quickly readable by others. ah! yeah i do that so automatically that i forgot about it. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jun 20 11:20:25 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 11:20:25 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: hiya folks, whilst preparing an early 2.7.4 sample i tried the parabola image that i have here, which worked well back in june-august 2016 and i have not updated since. alongside XFCE4 i deployed eudev and openrc and it works extremely effectively (and provides a faster boot time). when endeavouring to do an update there were two key conflicts, related to udev, systemd and mesa-gl attempting to be upgraded. the upgrade could therefore not proceed. now, i *might* have a micro-sd card which has the full XFCE4 pre-tested image on it: around that time i remember losing a couple of pre-prepared images due to sdcard corruption thanks to NAND IC interference. if i can find it that is what will have to go out... but it will *not be upgradeable*. could someone (on parabola) please check this out and see what's going on? http://systemd-free.org/install.php many many thanks, l. From s at mnoble.net Wed Jun 21 04:04:35 2017 From: s at mnoble.net (Sam Noble) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 21:04:35 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On June 18, 2017 3:15:55 PM MDT, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > i am reluctant to take such draconian action without going through >intermediate less drastic steps, explained at each and every stage to >give him an opportunity to understand fully the gravity and >consequences (inconvenience to others), so i've placed his messages >under moderation as an intermediate step. List seems really quiet the last 24 hours especially in light of Luke posting a crowdsupply update. Any chance the whole list got put in moderation mode? -- Sent from my $DEVICE with $SOFTWARE. Please excuse my brevity. From el_gallo_azul at yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 05:31:58 2017 From: el_gallo_azul at yahoo.com (el_gallo_azul) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 04:31:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Arm-netbook] Rv: Update: 2.7.4 EOMA68-A20 Cards Arrived References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> I'd be happy enough to supply my own MicroSD card (in place of the TSSOP-48 NAND IC).   Greg Flint #yiv0042324540 body, #yiv0042324540 #yiv0042324540bodyTable, #yiv0042324540 #yiv0042324540bodyCell{min-height:100% !important;margin:0;padding:0;width:100% !important;}#yiv0042324540 table{border-collapse:collapse;}#yiv0042324540 img, #yiv0042324540 a img{border:0;outline:none;text-decoration:none;}#yiv0042324540 h1, #yiv0042324540 h2, #yiv0042324540 h3, #yiv0042324540 h4, #yiv0042324540 h5, #yiv0042324540 h6{margin:0;padding:0;}#yiv0042324540 p{margin:1em 0;padding:0;}#yiv0042324540 a{word-wrap:break-word;}#yiv0042324540 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h2{font-size:20px !important;line-height:125% !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:480px){#yiv0042324540 h3{font-size:18px !important;line-height:125% !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:480px){#yiv0042324540 h4{font-size:16px !important;line-height:125% !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:480px){#yiv0042324540 table .yiv0042324540filtered99999 td .yiv0042324540filtered99999 , #yiv0042324540 td[class=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086mcnBoxedTextContentContainer] td[class=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086mcnTextContent] p{font-size:18px !important;line-height:125% !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:480px){#yiv0042324540 table[id=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086templatePreheader]{display:block;}}@media screen and (max-width:480px){#yiv0042324540 td .yiv0042324540filtered99999 td .yiv0042324540filtered99999 , #yiv0042324540 td[class=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086preheaderContainer] td[class=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086mcnTextContent] p{font-size:14px !important;line-height:115% !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:480px){#yiv0042324540 td .yiv0042324540filtered99999 td .yiv0042324540filtered99999 , #yiv0042324540 td[class=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086headerContainer] td[class=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086mcnTextContent] p{font-size:18px !important;line-height:125% !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:480px){#yiv0042324540 td .yiv0042324540filtered99999 td .yiv0042324540filtered99999 , #yiv0042324540 td[class=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086bodyContainer] td[class=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086mcnTextContent] p{font-size:18px !important;line-height:125% !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:480px){#yiv0042324540 td .yiv0042324540filtered99999 td .yiv0042324540filtered99999 , #yiv0042324540 td[class=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086footerContainer] td[class=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086mcnTextContent] p{font-size:14px !important;line-height:115% !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:480px){#yiv0042324540 td[class=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086footerContainer] a[class=yiv0042324540yiv7036040991yiv7457952086utilityLink]{display:block;}} From calmstorm at posteo.de Wed Jun 21 05:53:38 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 00:53:38 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5949FBD2.4040807@posteo.de> On 06/20/2017 11:04 PM, Sam Noble wrote: > On June 18, 2017 3:15:55 PM MDT, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> i am reluctant to take such draconian action without going through >> intermediate less drastic steps, explained at each and every stage to >> give him an opportunity to understand fully the gravity and >> consequences (inconvenience to others), so i've placed his messages >> under moderation as an intermediate step. > List seems really quiet the last 24 hours especially in light of Luke posting a crowdsupply update. Any chance the whole list got put in moderation mode? Nah, I have just been waiting to hear more from everyone else. That is all. From mike.valk at gmail.com Wed Jun 21 09:35:38 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 10:35:38 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-06-17 11:17 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:40 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: > >> Bleh. It looked so pretty in my mind. ;-( > > i knoow... btw can you possibly investigate why, when you hit > "reply", the ">"s are not added? I was using gmail in HTML mode, apparently. I've found a switch. Hopefully this works better. N.B. Was this a problem before the auto HTML conversion on the list? > >> So different layers have different copper thickness. > > in a stack you tell the factory what thicknesses you want, as well as > what material in between, and what thickness of that, too. so you get > different capacitance on different layers. thus, the problem is: you > cannot guarantee the impedance will be identical on different layers. > so having differential pairs on different layers is the worst possible > thing you could do.... *unless* you have access to PCB simulators. > which are ultra-expensive. So it doesn't have to be a problem. As long as you control the layers that have traces have the same thicknesses. From mike.valk at gmail.com Wed Jun 21 09:43:24 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 10:43:24 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-06-15 16:02 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > i received the latest pre-production cards yesterday and have tested > one of them: it works. > > however (and this is the whole point of doing pre-production > prototypes) in endeavouring to use automated assembly and solder paste > it was discovered that the VIAs underneath the pads for the JAE DC3 > Micro-HDMI connector are sucking the solder paste in and down, leaving > the pins not properly connected. > How about placing the connector on a small flex-PCB and then connect the flex-PCB to the hard-PCB? Then you don't have to worry about the correct mount height of the connector, leaving you with a bigger variety of connectors. But then you'll need find another way to fixate the connectors to the card housing. 3D print? Also you can test connectors independently of the whole board. I understand such a change might be to big to do in terms of time and costs. Just trying to think outside the box here ;-) From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 11:46:03 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 11:46:03 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:04 AM, Sam Noble wrote: > On June 18, 2017 3:15:55 PM MDT, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > List seems really quiet the last 24 hours especially > in light of Luke posting a crowdsupply update. i'm drafting something (see end of update), there's been 5 more subscriptions (so far) - you don't get to see those. > Any chance the whole list got put in moderation mode? no. as you can see by your message getting through :) l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 11:56:37 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 11:56:37 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Rv: Update: 2.7.4 EOMA68-A20 Cards Arrived In-Reply-To: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 5:31 AM, el_gallo_azul via arm-netbook wrote: > I'd be happy enough to supply my own MicroSD card (in place of the TSSOP-48 NAND IC). thanks greg. very much appreciated. > Greg Flint > #yiv0042324540 body, #yiv0042324540 #yiv0042324540bodyTable, yarg, greg, eek! please do read up on how to interact with other people on mailing lists! you received a welcome message, with links on posting style and posting netiquette. please read it! l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 12:00:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 12:00:07 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: .On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:35 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-06-17 11:17 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:40 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> Bleh. It looked so pretty in my mind. ;-( >> >> i knoow... btw can you possibly investigate why, when you hit >> "reply", the ">"s are not added? > > I was using gmail in HTML mode, apparently. I've found a switch. > Hopefully this works better. it does. yay! > N.B. Was this a problem before the auto HTML conversion on the list? yes. i am constantly having to hand-edit people's replies to add line-breaks. it's been amazingly tedious. >> in a stack you tell the factory what thicknesses you want, as well as >> what material in between, and what thickness of that, too. so you get > So it doesn't have to be a problem. As long as you control the layers > that have traces have the same thicknesses. technically correct but far too much risk and hassle. you end up tying the PCB layout to a specific PCB manufacturing factory. l. From pablo at parobalth.org Wed Jun 21 12:02:09 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo Rath) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 13:02:09 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: References: <5947F70D.7060401@posteo.de> Message-ID: <20170621110209.GB17730@pabbook> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 05:50:47PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> [snipped unnecessary context and adding this sentence to indicate > >> that that action has been taken] Is an indicator like above the preferred way on this list to show a part of the message has been trimmed? I am asking because I usually trim messages when replying but did not insert such markers in square brackets. kind regards Pablo From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 12:03:46 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 12:03:46 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:43 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > How about placing the connector on a small flex-PCB and then connect > the flex-PCB to the hard-PCB? Then you don't have to worry about the > correct mount height of the connector, leaving you with a bigger > variety of connectors. a... a... oh! awesome idea! actually might be able to get away with a separate daughterboard. can't use a flex PCB, mounting these connectors is enough of a bitch as it is. > But then you'll need find another way to fixate > the connectors to the card housing. 3D print? PCB interlocks. size of cutout matches size of daughterboard. > Also you can test connectors independently of the whole board. very true. > I understand such a change might be to big to do in terms of time and costs. space. and EMI (over the connector). > Just trying to think outside the box here ;-) i could potentially try it for the passthrough card, which is a lower production cost. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 12:08:29 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 12:08:29 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: <20170621110209.GB17730@pabbook> References: <5947F70D.7060401@posteo.de> <20170621110209.GB17730@pabbook> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:02 PM, Pablo Rath wrote: > On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 05:50:47PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> >> [snipped unnecessary context and adding this sentence to indicate >> >> that that action has been taken] > > Is an indicator like above the preferred way on this > list to show a part of the message has been trimmed? i've seen people use it on other lists and conversations, it's not very common. i am ambivalent (no preference). > I am asking because I usually trim messages > when replying but did not > insert such markers in square brackets. the only reason i did it here was to demonstrate and highlight the practice *of* being courteous to other people by trimming unnecessary context. that's what this is really all about: ron sadly demonstrated a complete disregard for other people by indicating that his own personal preferences for composing and replying are more important... even when told (repeatedly) that putting other people to inconvenience is not acceptable. l. From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Wed Jun 21 12:20:18 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 07:20:18 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: <20170621110209.GB17730@pabbook> References: <5947F70D.7060401@posteo.de> <20170621110209.GB17730@pabbook> Message-ID: <20170621112018.GA562@topoi.pooq.com> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 01:02:09PM +0200, Pablo Rath wrote: > On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 05:50:47PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: ... ... > I am asking because I usually trim messages when replying but did not > insert such markers in square brackets. I usually mark it with unquoted ellipses, as above. -- hendrik From mike.valk at gmail.com Wed Jun 21 13:04:10 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 14:04:10 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Rv: Update: 2.7.4 EOMA68-A20 Cards Arrived In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2017-06-21 12:56 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 5:31 AM, el_gallo_azul via arm-netbook > wrote: >> I'd be happy enough to supply my own MicroSD card (in place of the TSSOP-48 NAND IC). > > thanks greg. very much appreciated. > >> Greg Flint >> #yiv0042324540 body, #yiv0042324540 #yiv0042324540bodyTable, > > yarg, greg, eek! please do read up on how to interact with other > people on mailing lists! you received a welcome message, with links > on posting style and posting netiquette. please read it! You sure that this is not the result of the auto HTML converter? > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 13:07:34 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 13:07:34 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Rv: Update: 2.7.4 EOMA68-A20 Cards Arrived In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:04 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: >>> Greg Flint >>> #yiv0042324540 body, #yiv0042324540 #yiv0042324540bodyTable, >> >> yarg, greg, eek! please do read up on how to interact with other >> people on mailing lists! you received a welcome message, with links >> on posting style and posting netiquette. please read it! > > You sure that this is not the result of the auto HTML converter? not sure. greg forwarded a copy of the (entire) update as a first attempt: it was rejected due to size. we'll find out what he did when he responds but i believe he may have tried manually editing the message. l. From andreas at grapentin.org Wed Jun 21 13:22:57 2017 From: andreas at grapentin.org (Andreas Grapentin) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 14:22:57 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] test, please ignore Message-ID: <20170621122257.GA23332@parabola-pocket.localdomain> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 gpg test, please ignore. - -A - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ my GPG Public Key: https://files.grapentin.org/.gpg/public.key - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEv6gAioJlZ3BjsRv0cXGYbkt0VTYFAllKZSAACgkQcXGYbkt0 VTbmVgf/aKhPab4t4ErUDuajnh9v7APXVW09E4I1NYrCZ6X9BjN8D3dcmFVr/4nh rBrfxu0Vm93TL9DsqNnbDQVBs6uj4OttzytSDCIsPVyz2Xr9liNH/hU5A4MrdV7Y ZV16yHPUOavClpuW9HFAYTJuQDsAGee5lmcCIlOp9MN5hat/l2Nwyvq/RxOIQVB0 Vtudg5b+4iqzdlXN4t2wxeBBWhonLvtHoTQvuf5zuKfOeW+0tmc1AGHI0Ebi+JWj AR4cQyBp2L+YkD8kOPong3iJJ0/t8luY9tv3J2bwvCoQVGor0N92vEjeCMgr8NwH gowRd67SAi226c1npMmc0+yR5T152Q== =KzTH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mike.valk at gmail.com Wed Jun 21 13:31:44 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 14:31:44 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-06-21 13:00 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > .On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:35 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: >> 2017-06-17 11:17 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >>> On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:40 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> i knoow... btw can you possibly investigate why, when you hit >>> "reply", the ">"s are not added? >> >> I was using gmail in HTML mode, apparently. I've found a switch. >> Hopefully this works better. > > it does. yay! For those wonder how. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDP3VcmsYtg >>> in a stack you tell the factory what thicknesses you want, as well as >>> what material in between, and what thickness of that, too. so you get > >> So it doesn't have to be a problem. As long as you control the layers >> that have traces have the same thicknesses. > > technically correct but far too much risk and hassle. you end up > tying the PCB layout to a specific PCB manufacturing factory. Hmm. If only we could include parameterised sections in the design to accommodate that. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From calmstorm at posteo.de Wed Jun 21 15:56:45 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 10:56:45 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> I wish you the best Luke. I will also say, that if you cannot get hdmi working it won't bother me. Also, if micro sd cards are too expensive, I really don't care about that either. It's all good dude. Just as long as the computer is as functional as you can make it. :) I really appreciate what the free software community does for our world. If not for GNU and free software supporters like you, I would really extremely frightened of our current world... government intimidation and what not... My bad if this comes across as sappy, meh... One question though, how is reverse engineering the rockchip going? Just curious. Anyways, peace to ya Luke and I wish you well. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 16:20:34 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 16:20:34 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 3:56 PM, zap wrote: > I wish you the best Luke. I will also say, that if you cannot get hdmi > working it won't bother me. Also, if micro sd cards are too expensive, > I really don't care about that either. It's all good dude. > > Just as long as the computer is as functional as you can make it. appreciated. there are however some people who would have pledged only for the card, and the cable kit: they'll be expecting to use the cards stand-alone. argh. > :) > > I really appreciate what the free software community does for our world. > If not for GNU and free software supporters like you, I would really > extremely frightened of our current world... government intimidation and > what not... thx zap > My bad if this comes across as sappy, meh... pffh :) > One question though, how is reverse engineering the rockchip going? i stopped working on it for a while as i may have a lead on a better SoC, the RK3388 (yes it really does exist). also i'm waiting for some equipmnt to arrive so i can put on 2 extra DDR3x16 RAM ICs. l. From vincent.legoll at gmail.com Wed Jun 21 16:33:36 2017 From: vincent.legoll at gmail.com (Vincent Legoll) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 17:33:36 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > appreciated. there are however some people who would have pledged > only for the card, and the cable kit: they'll be expecting to use the > cards stand-alone. Yes, there are some of those, I'm one for instance. I would personally be less bothered by the lack of an SD card than the missing HDMI. -- Vincent Legoll From andreas at grapentin.org Wed Jun 21 16:49:27 2017 From: andreas at grapentin.org (Andreas Grapentin) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 17:49:27 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] test, please ignore Message-ID: <20170621154927.GA461@parabola-pocket.localdomain> gpg test no. 2, please ignore. -A -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ my GPG Public Key: https://files.grapentin.org/.gpg/public.key ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From kahl at cas.mcmaster.ca Wed Jun 21 18:26:59 2017 From: kahl at cas.mcmaster.ca (Wolfram Kahl) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 13:26:59 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170621172659.GT20399@ritchie.cas.mcmaster.ca> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:00:07PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > .On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:35 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com > >> in a stack you tell the factory what thicknesses you want, as well as > >> what material in between, and what thickness of that, too. so you get > > > So it doesn't have to be a problem. As long as you control the layers > > that have traces have the same thicknesses. > > technically correct but far too much risk and hassle. you end up > tying the PCB layout to a specific PCB manufacturing factory. Are there high-frequency risks/problems with switching back and forth between the layer pair so that each trace travels equal distances on layer X and on layer Y? Wolfram From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 19:04:18 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 19:04:18 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: <20170621172659.GT20399@ritchie.cas.mcmaster.ca> References: <20170621172659.GT20399@ritchie.cas.mcmaster.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 6:26 PM, Wolfram Kahl wrote: > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:00:07PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> .On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:35 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com >> >> in a stack you tell the factory what thicknesses you want, as well as >> >> what material in between, and what thickness of that, too. so you get >> >> > So it doesn't have to be a problem. As long as you control the layers >> > that have traces have the same thicknesses. >> >> technically correct but far too much risk and hassle. you end up >> tying the PCB layout to a specific PCB manufacturing factory. > > Are there high-frequency risks/problems with switching back and forth > between the layer pair there are. the more VIAs you have the more EMI there is. R.F. (and HDMI is R.F.) does not travel in a straight line: if you have an abrupt change of direction (a corner or a VIA) the signal actually tries to just keep going in a straight line! the best track layouts use curves not 45 degree transitions. the best layouts have no track changes at all, are as symmetrical as possible, are completely surrounded symmetrically by the exact same amount of space on either side, and the exact same number of vias on both sides of the track. and also are impedance matched in terms of distance between the pairs, width of the tracks, *and* the distance between layers *and* the dielectric constant of the insulation between the layers. it's a pretty heavy-duty amount of requirements. l. From andreas at grapentin.org Wed Jun 21 19:23:48 2017 From: andreas at grapentin.org (Andreas Grapentin) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 20:23:48 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: <20170621182348.GA3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Hi Luke, On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 11:20:25AM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > when endeavouring to do an update there were two key conflicts, > related to udev, systemd and mesa-gl attempting to be upgraded. the > upgrade could therefore not proceed. could you give us access to the image you used? that would make it easier to find the issues. However, due to some changes in arch, there is currently no clean upgrade path from 2016 images that does not require manual intervention. See here: https://www.archlinux.org/news/ca-certificates-utils-20170307-1-upgrade-requires-manual-intervention/ there might be some more of these that I forgot. Best, -Andreas -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ my GPG Public Key: https://files.grapentin.org/.gpg/public.key ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From andreas at grapentin.org Wed Jun 21 19:26:41 2017 From: andreas at grapentin.org (Andreas Grapentin) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 20:26:41 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170620194408.GA8934@parabola-pocket.localdomain> References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> <20170620194408.GA8934@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: <20170621182641.GB3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Hi, to pick up this discussion again, Parabola has concluded that we will for the time being need only one preview card, and I will privately pay for it in full. following are the contact information for the hacker in question: Andreas Grapentin (me) Potsdam, Germany I can provide a complete address through a more private channel :) Best, Andreas -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ my GPG Public Key: https://files.grapentin.org/.gpg/public.key ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 19:43:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 19:43:07 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170621182641.GB3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> <20170620194408.GA8934@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621182641.GB3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:26 PM, Andreas Grapentin wrote: > > Hi, > > to pick up this discussion again, Parabola has concluded that we will > for the time being need only one preview card, and I will privately pay > for it in full. that would be fantastic. it's $USD 2000 a time or so to make 10 samples. i have 9 available working 2.7.4 samples and 9 microdesktop v1.7 pcbs. if you have a usb-to-uart (usual FT232 thing will do) and a soldering iron that would help. if not i might have one spare. also if you can arrange pickup (e.g. DHL) that would be really helpful. very important: i will mark them as "sample of negligeable value" on the cards themselves and on the customs form. > following are the contact information for the hacker in question: > Andreas Grapentin (me) > Potsdam, Germany > I can provide a complete address through a more private channel :) yes please. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 19:46:51 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 19:46:51 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170621182348.GA3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621182348.GA3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:23 PM, Andreas Grapentin wrote: > > Hi Luke, > > On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 11:20:25AM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> when endeavouring to do an update there were two key conflicts, >> related to udev, systemd and mesa-gl attempting to be upgraded. the >> upgrade could therefore not proceed. > > could you give us access to the image you used? that would make it > easier to find the issues. can do. one ironic thing: i cannot remember how i got eudev installed! i.e. from which repo. 1.7gb upload... *shudder*. ok. i have space. it's going to take... 10 hours @ 40k/sec. will get back to you in a a few days as i do not expect it to complete first time (rsync is my best friend here). > However, due to some changes in arch, there is currently no clean > upgrade path from 2016 images that does not require manual intervention. > See here: > https://www.archlinux.org/news/ca-certificates-utils-20170307-1-upgrade-requires-manual-intervention/ yuck. ok. From andreas at grapentin.org Wed Jun 21 20:04:45 2017 From: andreas at grapentin.org (Andreas Grapentin) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 21:04:45 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: References: <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> <20170620194408.GA8934@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621182641.GB3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: <20170621190445.GA10857@parabola-pocket.localdomain> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 07:43:07PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > [...] it's $USD 2000 a time or so to make 10 > samples. i have 9 available working 2.7.4 samples and 9 microdesktop > v1.7 pcbs. So it's 200 $USD for one card plus microdesktop pcb? That is manageable. Let me know where I should transfer the money and I will do that ASAP. > if you have a usb-to-uart (usual FT232 thing will do) and > a soldering iron that would help. yup, plenty of those around. > also if you can arrange pickup (e.g. DHL) that would be really > helpful. I am not sure what that entails - could you elaborate? I was assuming the card would just be shipped to my home address. I am not familiar with dhl pickup, and a quick search didn't produce anything useful. > very important: i will mark them as "sample of negligeable value" on > the cards themselves and on the customs form. good, let's see how that goes. I'm consistently having trouble with packages that go through customs; must be on some kind of watchlist. -A -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ my GPG Public Key: https://files.grapentin.org/.gpg/public.key ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 20:26:46 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 20:26:46 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170621190445.GA10857@parabola-pocket.localdomain> References: <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> <20170620194408.GA8934@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621182641.GB3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621190445.GA10857@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Andreas Grapentin wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 07:43:07PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> [...] it's $USD 2000 a time or so to make 10 >> samples. i have 9 available working 2.7.4 samples and 9 microdesktop >> v1.7 pcbs. > > So it's 200 $USD for one card plus microdesktop pcb? yyyeah roughly. i forget how much the microdesktop samples were but it's nothing like the cost of the A20 samples. DHL will be... $50 maybe $70, i'll look it up. > That is manageable. > Let me know where I should transfer the money and I will do that ASAP. > >> if you have a usb-to-uart (usual FT232 thing will do) and >> a soldering iron that would help. > > yup, plenty of those around. awesome. one less thing for me to do. i'll take a photo so you have the pinouts. just fyi if you look at the microdesktop longways with the 20-pin 2.54mm DIL nearest to you and left-right it's GND in the front right corner then TX/RX to the left of those, i forget which is which. >> also if you can arrange pickup (e.g. DHL) that would be really >> helpful. > > I am not sure what that entails - could you elaborate? I was assuming > the card would just be shipped to my home address. I am not familiar > with dhl pickup, and a quick search didn't produce anything useful. google "DHL scheduled pickup taiwan": http://www.dhl.com.tw/en/express/shipping/pickup.html mm.... depending on the bank account i might be able to just arrange shipping: i'll have to talk to my partner to find out which bank account has a means and method of paying DHL. >> very important: i will mark them as "sample of negligeable value" on >> the cards themselves and on the customs form. > > good, let's see how that goes. I'm consistently having trouble with > packages that go through customs; must be on some kind of watchlist. if you're receiving a lot of stuff, regularly, and it's not a business address then yeah they might get edgy. that being the case it might be better to use Fedex. Fedex are much better: they handle customs payment on your behalf and make damn sure to actually do what they promise: deliver on time. http://www.fedex.com/tw_english/pickup/ l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 20:31:43 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 20:31:43 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: References: <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> <20170620194408.GA8934@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621182641.GB3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621190445.GA10857@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: btw i looove taiwan broadband, moving the laptop upped the speed to 1.5mb/sec. an error on my part resulted in the first time being deleted, i'm doing a second one, it will be at http://lkcl.net/parabola_armhf_eoma68.tgz oo it's only 1.3gb yay (as if 1.3gb is any better... *sigh* i *really* don't like distributing root filesystems, but hey...) ok go for it andreas, give it a shot. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Wed Jun 21 20:40:23 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 15:40:23 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: References: <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> <20170620194408.GA8934@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621182641.GB3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621190445.GA10857@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: I know Europe's a whole different ball game -- but -- DHL "eCommerce" shipping (invariably marked on the label as "DHL Global Mail") in the US is the single slowest partnered-with-the-Postal-Service-for-cheaper-service shipping medium that I've ever used. USPS Media Mail is faster! Heck, ePacket from Hong Kong is borderline faster -- and DHL eCommerce is a DOMESTIC service! From calmstorm at posteo.de Wed Jun 21 21:11:27 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 16:11:27 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> Message-ID: <594AD2EF.5090706@posteo.de> On 06/21/2017 11:20 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 3:56 PM, zap wrote: >> I wish you the best Luke. I will also say, that if you cannot get hdmi >> working it won't bother me. Also, if micro sd cards are too expensive, >> I really don't care about that either. It's all good dude. >> >> Just as long as the computer is as functional as you can make it. > appreciated. there are however some people who would have pledged > only for the card, and the cable kit: they'll be expecting to use the > cards stand-alone. > > argh. I am hopeful that you will figure that out >> One question though, how is reverse engineering the rockchip going? > i stopped working on it for a while as i may have a lead on a better > SoC, the RK3388 (yes it really does exist). also i'm waiting for some > equipmnt to arrive so i can put on 2 extra DDR3x16 RAM ICs. Wait... how much ram would you have then as supported. I mean, you did say 4gb would be the limit right? Also, the RK3388 will it be easier or harder to reverse engineer? just curious. From andreas at grapentin.org Wed Jun 21 21:27:35 2017 From: andreas at grapentin.org (Andreas Grapentin) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 22:27:35 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: References: <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> <20170620194408.GA8934@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621182641.GB3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621190445.GA10857@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: <20170621202735.GA28243@parabola-pocket.localdomain> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 08:31:43PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > btw i looove taiwan broadband, moving the laptop upped the speed to > 1.5mb/sec. an error on my part resulted in the first time being > deleted, i'm doing a second one, it will be at > http://lkcl.net/parabola_armhf_eoma68.tgz Thank you, download is complete. Could you verify that this sha256 sum is correct: 90678894608b8b7f6bb3aa8feedcc475d8b4b52d27f161046b182091967d3806 parabola_armhf_eoma68.tgz Can't be careful enough :) Thanks, -A -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ my GPG Public Key: https://files.grapentin.org/.gpg/public.key ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From calmstorm at posteo.de Wed Jun 21 21:37:13 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 16:37:13 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: <594AD2EF.5090706@posteo.de> References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <594AD2EF.5090706@posteo.de> Message-ID: <594AD8F9.9080905@posteo.de> >> i stopped working on it for a while as i may have a lead on a better >> SoC, the RK3388 (yes it really does exist). also i'm waiting for some >> equipmnt to arrive so i can put on 2 extra DDR3x16 RAM ICs. > Wait... how much ram would you have then as supported. I mean, you did > say 4gb would be the limit right? Also, the RK3388 will it be easier or > harder to reverse engineer? just curious. Let me know if this is a problem that I ask this, but where do I find rk3388 on the web, I was curious about its description and what not, Is this processor a octacore? just curious because if so, it might be called rk3368 and not rk3388. Again though, I still wonder about its capabilities. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 21:39:36 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 21:39:36 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170621202735.GA28243@parabola-pocket.localdomain> References: <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> <20170620194408.GA8934@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621182641.GB3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621190445.GA10857@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621202735.GA28243@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:27 PM, Andreas Grapentin wrote: > Could you verify that this sha256 sum is correct: > 90678894608b8b7f6bb3aa8feedcc475d8b4b52d27f161046b182091967d3806 parabola_armhf_eoma68.tgz root at dedi28:/var/ftp/lkcl.net# sha256sum parabola_armhf_eoma68.tgz 90678894608b8b7f6bb3aa8feedcc475d8b4b52d27f161046b182091967d3806 parabola_armhf_eoma68.tgz looks good. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 21:41:15 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 21:41:15 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: <594AD2EF.5090706@posteo.de> References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <594AD2EF.5090706@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:11 PM, zap wrote: > Wait... how much ram would you have then as supported. I mean, you did > say 4gb would be the limit right? 4gb yes. > Also, the RK3388 will it be easier or > harder to reverse engineer? just curious. contact is working on nda-free full info including pcb design. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 21:42:34 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 21:42:34 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: <594AD8F9.9080905@posteo.de> References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <594AD2EF.5090706@posteo.de> <594AD8F9.9080905@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:37 PM, zap wrote: > Let me know if this is a problem that I ask this, but where do I find > rk3388 on the web, I was curious about its description and what not, you don't. > Is this processor a octacore? quad. > just curious because if so, it might be > called rk3368 and not rk3388. it's not. > Again though, I still wonder about its capabilities. 64-bit cut-down version of rk3288 targetted at media centres. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Wed Jun 21 21:50:01 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 16:50:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <594AD2EF.5090706@posteo.de> <594AD8F9.9080905@posteo.de> Message-ID: <594ADBF9.7060200@posteo.de> On 06/21/2017 04:42 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:37 PM, zap wrote: > >> Let me know if this is a problem that I ask this, but where do I find >> rk3388 on the web, I was curious about its description and what not, > you don't. > >> Is this processor a octacore? > quad. > >> just curious because if so, it might be >> called rk3368 and not rk3388. > it's not. > >> Again though, I still wonder about its capabilities. > 64-bit cut-down version of rk3288 targetted at media centres. Okay, thanks for telling me, Luke. Appreciate it. I was confused heh. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Wed Jun 21 22:17:20 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 17:17:20 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, Message-ID: > SoC, the RK3388 (yes it really does exist). also i'm waiting for some Was it not rk3399? > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 22:24:36 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 22:24:36 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 10:17 PM, wrote: > Was it not rk3399? no it's an as-yet unannounced SoC, i met someone at computex who showed me a prototype board with this chip on it, so i know it's definitely named RK3388 and not anything else. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 21 22:27:56 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 22:27:56 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: p.s. ron, well done for trimming unnecessary context. l. From el_gallo_azul at yahoo.com Thu Jun 22 00:26:48 2017 From: el_gallo_azul at yahoo.com (el_gallo_azul) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 23:26:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Arm-netbook] Oops. Sorry for sending all the junk to the mailing list References: <1169266742.901021.1498087608983.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1169266742.901021.1498087608983@mail.yahoo.com> Hello world. I realised when I received the auto-reply that I had been naughty. I sent the message again without all the extras, but too late. Sorry! Greg Flint From calmstorm at posteo.de Thu Jun 22 01:47:30 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 20:47:30 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <594B13A2.1020501@posteo.de> On 06/21/2017 05:24 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 10:17 PM, wrote: > >> Was it not rk3399? > no it's an as-yet unannounced SoC, i met someone at computex who > showed me a prototype board with this chip on it, so i know it's > definitely named RK3388 and not anything else. Ah that makes a lot of sense. Thank you, do you know when it will be released? > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Jun 22 05:05:34 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 05:05:34 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Oops. Sorry for sending all the junk to the mailing list In-Reply-To: <1169266742.901021.1498087608983@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1169266742.901021.1498087608983.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1169266742.901021.1498087608983@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:26 AM, el_gallo_azul via arm-netbook wrote: > Hello world. I realised when I received the auto-reply > that I had been naughty. I sent the message again > without all the extras, but too late. Sorry! Greg Flint no problem greg. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Jun 22 05:06:16 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 05:06:16 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: <594B13A2.1020501@posteo.de> References: <594B13A2.1020501@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 1:47 AM, zap wrote: >> [... RK3388 ...] > Ah that makes a lot of sense. Thank you, do you know when it will be > released? not at all. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Jun 22 05:15:19 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 05:15:19 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> Message-ID: andreas it would be really handy to have openrc, eudev and nosystemd-compat added to parabola armv7h. https://sourceforge.net/projects/mefiles/files/Manjaro/openrc-eudev/armv7h/ http://systemd-free.org/ From mike.valk at gmail.com Thu Jun 22 08:55:39 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 09:55:39 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: <20170621172659.GT20399@ritchie.cas.mcmaster.ca> Message-ID: 2017-06-21 20:04 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 6:26 PM, Wolfram Kahl wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:00:07PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >>> .On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:35 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com >>> >> in a stack you tell the factory what thicknesses you want, as well as >>> >> what material in between, and what thickness of that, too. so you get >>> >>> > So it doesn't have to be a problem. As long as you control the layers >>> > that have traces have the same thicknesses. >>> >>> technically correct but far too much risk and hassle. you end up >>> tying the PCB layout to a specific PCB manufacturing factory. >> >> Are there high-frequency risks/problems with switching back and forth >> between the layer pair. > > there are. Every set of parallel wires act as both inductors and capacitors. https://www.engineersgarage.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/Original/wysiwyg_imageupload/4214/CIRCULAR%20CONNECTORS%203.JPG. With DC inductance is less of a problem. But with HF signals you don't want return signals canceling out the main signal. That's why the lines need to be parallel and of equal length. And why I hate the length matching only on the end of the line. > the more VIAs you have the more EMI there is. R.F. (and > HDMI is R.F.) HDMI is HF, High frequency, which causes RF, Radio Frequency's, emissions. EMI, Elektro Magnetic Interference, is the result of RF hitting your signal line and creating noise and distortion. Every electrical current causes an EM field. But with DC it is static. With HF is dynamic making to harder to read the signal properly and without errors. > > the best track layouts use curves not 45 degree transitions. That might not be true. Curves might actually be more problematic. When the signal hits a wall it deflects. Like light on a mirror. With curves the signal starts bouncing in zigzag pattern. Making the distance traveled more unpredictable. And in worst case the signal starts traveling backwards creating echo's. HF Signals also tend to move on the outside of a conductor/track. I guess that's why via's are so bad. The are round and change route at 90 degrees, downward or upward. So the signal starts bouncing and echoing. Creating RF noise. But with BGA IC's you have no other option than to use VIA's and sometimes signals need to cross so you have to as well. > the best layouts have no track changes at all, are as symmetrical as > possible, are completely surrounded symmetrically by the exact same > amount of space on either side, and the exact same number of vias on > both sides of the track. and also are impedance matched in terms of > distance between the pairs, width of the tracks, *and* the distance > between layers *and* the dielectric constant of the insulation between > the layers. > > it's a pretty heavy-duty amount of requirements. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Thu Jun 22 12:44:15 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 07:44:15 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] nosystemd-compat? In-Reply-To: References: <20170427045240.GA1882@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170504134015.GA12968@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> Message-ID: <20170622114414.GA22432@topoi.pooq.com> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 05:15:19AM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > andreas it would be really handy to have openrc, eudev and > nosystemd-compat added to parabola armv7h. Just curious. What is nosystemd-compat? Is is something like the libsystemd0 in Devuan that provides a dummy systemd interfae to some programs that appear to depend on systemd to run without it? -- hendrik From phil at hands.com Thu Jun 22 09:28:21 2017 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 10:28:21 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87k244l93u.fsf@whist.hands.com> Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton writes: > .On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:35 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: >> 2017-06-17 11:17 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >>> On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 8:40 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Bleh. It looked so pretty in my mind. ;-( >>> >>> i knoow... btw can you possibly investigate why, when you hit >>> "reply", the ">"s are not added? >> >> I was using gmail in HTML mode, apparently. I've found a switch. >> Hopefully this works better. > > it does. yay! > >> N.B. Was this a problem before the auto HTML conversion on the list? > > yes. i am constantly having to hand-edit people's replies to add > line-breaks. it's been amazingly tedious. Hi Luke, Does whatever is your favoured editor not have a widget for that sort of thing? In notmuch+emacs one is editing mails in emacs Message mode, which means you can re-wrap a paragraph, with the quotes being done as one would hope, by simply hitting M-q (Alt-q on my keyboard) when in the offending paragraph. While one could spend one's life trying to teach people how these things were generally done in the '80s, I came to the conclusion that the steady influx of Internet newbies meant that became a Sisyphean task some time in the '90s, and then got significantly worse when Microsoft inflicted a mail client on the world that punishes people for using email the way we'd prefer. Using better tools seems likely to be the shorter route to inner calm. Having said that, I did try to persuade Ron to edit out the 'Original Message' line of his mails, since that makes emacs ignore the whole mail as an empty top-post. He managed to do it a couple of times before the strain became too much, so he was trying before he became trying ;-) On the plus side, people that resolutely stick to talking in their own preferred style, rather than taking into account the preferred style of their audience, helpfully tag themselves as not being worth one's time. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY From auerswal at unix-ag.uni-kl.de Fri Jun 23 07:52:03 2017 From: auerswal at unix-ag.uni-kl.de (Erik Auerswald) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 08:52:03 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 2.7.4 pre-production prototypes received and working In-Reply-To: <87k244l93u.fsf@whist.hands.com> References: <87k244l93u.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: <20170623065203.GA28047@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> Hi, On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:28:21AM +0200, Philip Hands wrote: > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton writes: > > > > yes. i am constantly having to hand-edit people's replies to add > > line-breaks. it's been amazingly tedious. > > Does whatever is your favoured editor not have a widget for that sort of > thing? I usually use 'fmt' to create line-breaks semi-automatically. Many text editors for Unix like systems (e.g. vi) allow to invoke external programs as filters to manipulate (part of) the text. Example for vim to insert line-breaks into the current line: :.,.!fmt Example for vim to re-adjust line-breaks of a paragraph: !}fmt But you all knew this already anyway. ;) It still is more tedious to have to adjust the text for a reply than to just have a nicely formatted plain text mail to start with. Thanks, Erik -- Unix is simple and coherent, but it takes a genius - or at any rate a programmer - to understand and appreciate the simplicity. -- Dennis Ritchie From doark at mail.com Fri Jun 23 14:27:31 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 09:27:31 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> Message-ID: <20170623092731.36e74f73@ulgy_thing> On Sun Jun 18 07:09:40 BST 2017, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl at lkcl.net wrote: > On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 7:53 PM, zap wrote: > > > IF you can figure out how to reverse engineer the 3d engine, ikcl > > would be very happy I am sure. > > that used to be the case but is no longer true. please read section > 2.5 of the bill of ethics before proceeding further with this thread: > https://www.titanians.org/the-bill-of-ethics/ > > ARM's illegal and unethical activity which destroyed luc verhaegen's > career and reputation - including several counts of slander as well as > blackmail of the company funding his reverse-engineering efforts - was > the last straw. Well I am kinda stuck with two Mali-GPUs, both I bought under the impression that the code is open-source if in FLOSS and I would imagine that there are others in this situation. > if we proceed to reverse-engineer MALI, logically it results in > people buying more ARM products. Actually, I read on wikipedia what Linux's support for Mali is and what the firefly and CHIP webpages described their product as (e.g. proprietary vs. opensource), and thus I seem to have been fooled, twice. Surly others will come to the same conclusions unless they dig into this ML, or the Linux kernel archives, or stumble on Luc's page? > if people buy more ARM products, logically it results in more money > (resources) going to support ARM's illegal and unethical actions. Which will happen anyways due to ignorance. I try to stay up on what companies are nice and which are not plus the general goings on in the opensource community (I know about Nvidia and AMD/Radeon), and this entire problem with Mali blindsided me. This is not a problem that is as well publicized as say, Linux giving Nvidia the F word. > any action which is taken that results in support or endorsement of > unethical actions is, logically, itself, unethical > > therefore, logically and plainly put: unless ARM's attitude changes > the reverse-engineering of MALI is itself an unethical act. > > so it's a simple chain of logical reasoning based on ethical > principles. > > l. Unless you're trying to be merciful to those who are less fortunate. Look at those who buy prisoners from ISIS or any other violent group. Or, how about ransomware? Do we just tell people "Next time don't use windowz"? It's a tough choice, I agree Luke, but if I succeed you can be certain that I, like Luc, will pay dearly for my good intentions. Then at least Luc will gain a friend as I dwell in a state of solidarity with him, and his actions will not go to waste. The reason I would really be interested in the Mali GPU driver is not because of the need for a basic driver, nor for the sake of games (though they do have an appeal), but because of the Opencl support which I'd really like to play with (My desktop card is an AMD and their Opencl support is non-functional at this time in my system for whatever reason in spite of my using the latest kernel and Mesa library). Now can we get back to how to do the reverse engineering itself? Sincerely, David From vkontogpls at gmail.com Fri Jun 23 16:29:32 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 18:29:32 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: <20170623092731.36e74f73@ulgy_thing> References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> <20170623092731.36e74f73@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:27 PM, David Niklas wrote: > Now can we get back to how to do the reverse engineering itself? Someone should suggest Luc to open a monthly patreon-styled donation page for working on lima. From calmstorm at posteo.de Fri Jun 23 19:36:48 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 14:36:48 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: <20170530164836.6cb14679@ulgy_thing> <20170617093936.5e4a3050@ulgy_thing> <59457ABB.6010406@posteo.de> <20170623092731.36e74f73@ulgy_thing> Message-ID: <594D5FC0.1080404@posteo.de> On 06/23/2017 11:29 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:27 PM, David Niklas wrote: > >> Now can we get back to how to do the reverse engineering itself? > Someone should suggest Luc to open a monthly patreon-styled donation > page for working on lima. I second this notion. reverse engineering lima could open a lot of options to us if successful. From leimon at gmail.com Fri Jun 23 20:48:39 2017 From: leimon at gmail.com (Mike Leimon) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 12:48:39 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore Message-ID: On 06/23/2017 11:29 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:27 PM, David Niklas wrote: > >> Now can we get back to how to do the reverse engineering itself? > Someone should suggest Luc to open a monthly patreon-styled donation > page for working on lima. If ARM is still as openly hostile as they appear to be towards reverse engineering of their GPU designs, I don't think that pursuing lima development is a very good option. I suspect that if development of the driver resumes, they will probably continue their horrible crusade against Luc and I don't want to see that happen to anybody. I think that if we are really trying to play the long game here, then that money would be better spent working towards the development of an open GPU design that we can can use in future risc-v SOCs. Perhaps another option that might be more amenable and rewarding for Luc. Would be to open a monthly patron-styled donation page not to develop lima drivers, but instead to work together with people like Jeff Bush (the main guy developming the Nyuzi GPGPU: https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor ). To me (and I haven't read into it much) it seems like, the focus thus far for the Nyuzi project is only on developing the GPGPU and not so much looking at it from the point of view of, how would we write a Linux driver for this device. I think if we focused some money on Luc (driver developer) and the Nyuzi (hardware developer) developers, then they might be more inspired to focus their efforts on producing a quality GPGPU and supporting drivers. Honestly, I think that working together with people who are openly developing a GPU design and who would probably be quite welcoming of assistance from Luc would be a much better situation for him than if he went back to trying to working on the lima driver. Perhaps a company like si-five ( https://www.sifive.com/ ) or the risc-v organization might even consider trying to sponsor a collaboration like this as having a good open GPU implementation would certainly be a boon to them in the future. Anyhow, that is my two cents. -Mike From vkontogpls at gmail.com Fri Jun 23 21:03:29 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 23:03:29 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Mike Leimon wrote: > Honestly, I think that working together with people who are openly > developing a GPU design and who would probably be quite welcoming > of assistance from Luc would be a much better situation for him than if > he went back to trying to working on the lima driver. Perhaps a company > like si-five ( https://www.sifive.com/ ) or the risc-v organization might > even consider trying to sponsor a collaboration like this as having a good > open GPU implementation would certainly be a boon to them in the future. > > Anyhow, that is my two cents. That is a really good idea and luke had mentioned it multiple times in the past but keep in mind that gpus are an extreme patent minefield these days. Heck, intel can't solve some problems like memory compression on their gpus. But maybe someone should propose this to sifive or the risc v foundation. Something like a Berkeley sponsored program would be really interesting. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Jun 24 00:27:29 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 00:27:29 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 8:48 PM, Mike Leimon wrote: > If ARM is still as openly hostile as they appear to be towards reverse > engineering of their GPU designs, I don't think that pursuing lima > development is a very good option. I suspect that if development of the > driver resumes, they will probably continue their horrible crusade against > Luc and I don't want to see that happen to anybody. well forewarned is forearmed. and it's quite easy, when reverse-engineering, to find security flaws. for every unethical action that ARM takes it would be really easy to release another zero-day exploit with full source code and a CVE report. pretty soon they'd get the message. > I think that if we are really trying to play the long game here, then that > money would be better spent working towards the development of an > open GPU design that we can can use in future risc-v SOCs. exactly my point. l. From bluey at smallfootprint.info Sat Jun 24 09:55:28 2017 From: bluey at smallfootprint.info (Bluey) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 18:55:28 +1000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore | libre GPU discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 24 Jun 2017, at 6:03 AM, Bill Kontos wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Mike Leimon wrote: > >> Honestly, I think that working together with people who are openly >> developing a GPU design and who would probably be quite welcoming >> of assistance from Luc would be a much better situation for him than if >> he went back to trying to working on the lima driver. Perhaps a company >> like si-five ( https://www.sifive.com/ ) or the risc-v organization might >> even consider trying to sponsor a collaboration like this as having a good >> open GPU implementation would certainly be a boon to them in the future. >> >> Anyhow, that is my two cents. > > That is a really good idea and luke had mentioned it multiple times in > the past but keep in mind that gpus are an extreme patent minefield > these days. Heck, intel can't solve some problems like memory > compression on their gpus. But maybe someone should propose this to > sifive or the risc v foundation. Something like a Berkeley sponsored > program would be really interesting. > Please excuse my ignorance in such matters but would it be possible to use a RISC-V or FPGA chip as an interim eGPU until such time that a more specialised chip can be developed and released? I appreciate that RISC-V/FPGA chips are not likely to be well-suited to the task of GPU processing but perhaps they would be better than no GPU at all. Once a specialised libre GPU has been developed, the RISC-V / FPGA chips could be repurposed as a CPU for other projects/computers/laptops/etc. and, hence, ensuring that they don't go to waste. - Bluey From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Jun 24 14:17:22 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 14:17:22 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] mali gpu reverse engineering lkcl may ignore | libre GPU discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 9:55 AM, Bluey wrote: > Please excuse my ignorance in such matters but would it be possible to > use a RISC-V or FPGA chip as an interim eGPU until such time that a more > specialised chip can be developed and released? on its own (as-is), no. however with certain very very specific and in some cases specialised SIMD instructions a reasonable approximation can be had. these operations are: * SIMD "and" for a bit-wise zero check (as large as possible) * inverse-squared function (for 1/x^2) - a very common operation in 3D * SIMD 12-14 bit accurate divide operation. this latter turns out to be "good enough" for the majority of 3D operations, where the accuracy on screens which only *have* 1920 pixels (11 bits being sufficient) division calculations beyond 12-14 bits is completely and utterly redundant... *under certain circumstances*. the point being that a divide operation which only requires 12-14 bits of accuracy may complete in half the time, thus dramatically saving on CPU cycles. > I appreciate that RISC-V/FPGA chips are not likely to be well-suited to the task > of GPU processing but perhaps they would be better than no GPU at all. not "and be power-efficient at the same time" > Once a specialised libre GPU has been developed, the RISC-V / FPGA chips > could be repurposed as a CPU for other projects/computers/laptops/etc. and, > hence, ensuring that they don't go to waste. this was the reasoning behind ICubeCorp's "UPU" - Unified Processing Unit - which unfortunately they kept proprietary. i tried to help them to understand the need to release the full boot initialisation source code and to comply with the GPL but they did not follow up. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sat Jun 24 23:32:24 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 18:32:24 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] 3D Printering Idea Message-ID: Hey, Luke, is this article at all useful to you? http://hackaday.com/2017/06/24/hackaday-prize-entry-a-3d-printer-management-system/ It looks like something you could fairly easily implement in such a way as to potentially speed up laptop part printing... the way I envision it, you have one printer for each part, and it just spits out one after another into, eg, an empty Tide or Fresh Step box. ...or maybe I'm daydreaming. You tell me :) From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Jun 24 23:58:15 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 23:58:15 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] 3D Printering Idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 11:32 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Hey, Luke, is this article at all useful to you? > > http://hackaday.com/2017/06/24/hackaday-prize-entry-a-3d-printer-management-system/ > > It looks like something you could fairly easily implement in such a way as > to potentially speed up laptop part printing... the way I envision it, you > have one printer for each part, and it just spits out one after another > into, eg, an empty Tide or Fresh Step box. i saw an ultimaker-2 just use the printhead to push parts off the printbed. it was even simpler than what that guy came up with. a heated bed one would assume you let it cool down first but it's so simple it's hardly worth there being a prize. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Sun Jun 25 00:13:45 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 19:13:45 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] 3D Printering Idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > i saw an ultimaker-2 just use the printhead to push parts off the > printbed. it was even simpler than what that guy came up with. a > heated bed one would assume you let it cool down first but it's so > simple it's hardly worth there being a prize. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't simpler better for some things? no need to make things too complex right? From calmstorm at posteo.de Sun Jun 25 00:20:41 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 19:20:41 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I apologize for not knowing this sooner, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> but I just learned what you have been trying to tell me for a while, with regard to how the amount of ram I have been asking for: 8gb isn't even needed. I used lxtask manager and I looked up the difference between free and used memory. So... yeah... this will no doubt be the last time I care about needing more than 4gb of ram for the next 8 to 10 years. xD yeah... my bad. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 25 00:36:05 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 00:36:05 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I apologize for not knowing this sooner, In-Reply-To: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 12:20 AM, zap wrote: > but I just learned what you have been trying to tell me for a while, > with regard to how the amount of ram I have been asking for: 8gb isn't > even needed. ah so you've not run 25 xterms, wicd-gtk, chromium with 20 tabs open, firefox with 200+, openscad, qemu _and_ vlc all simultaneously then :) that takes up 13 out of 16gb no that's a developer mindset. for ordinary average person usage, libreoffice, one web browser maybe 3-5 tabs if that, and vlc: yes 8gb is total overkill. one problem is that linux tends to use unused memory for cacheing. i have a vague recollection of it being used for file cacheing. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Jun 25 00:41:21 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 19:41:21 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I apologize for not knowing this sooner, In-Reply-To: References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> Message-ID: I cannot comprehend the necessity of having two hundred twenty browser tabs open, sum total... I rarely have need for one tenth of that. But, then, I'm not a dev. Maybe for us mere mortals, there is some explanation? :P From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 25 00:59:30 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 00:59:30 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I apologize for not knowing this sooner, In-Reply-To: References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 12:41 AM, Christopher Havel wrote: > I cannot comprehend the necessity of having two hundred twenty browser tabs > open, sum total... I rarely have need for one tenth of that. information / history. search for one topic, explore five links (right-mouse tab) and not find what you want, then close 1/2 of them, open 5 more. within 5-10 minutes there are 20 tabs open on one topic. then get another email message, and have something else to track down. but you're still in the middle of analysing the previous lot, which may take time. so leave those open. repeat that process and after 2 months you easily have 200 or more tabs open. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Jun 25 01:04:49 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:04:49 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I apologize for not knowing this sooner, In-Reply-To: References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> Message-ID: Fair enough. Suggestion: power cycling your computer more than every few months might be good for it. Mine gets rented-mule stubborn/slow after a couple /days/ like that. Not to mention, Mint has a bug with suspend/hibernate related to the wifi card -- I always have to unplug and replug it (I use an external card, the internal one is a burnt out POS and this Thinkpad still has an intact whitelist). OK, enough typing from me for a while -- this laptop went for a tumble two days ago and the spacebar now works only if I freakin' stand on it. So I'm done, till I can get someone with actual dexterity to have a look at it. On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 12:41 AM, Christopher Havel > wrote: > > I cannot comprehend the necessity of having two hundred twenty browser > tabs > > open, sum total... I rarely have need for one tenth of that. > > information / history. search for one topic, explore five links > (right-mouse tab) and not find what you want, then close 1/2 of them, > open 5 more. within 5-10 minutes there are 20 tabs open on one topic. > > then get another email message, and have something else to track > down. but you're still in the middle of analysing the previous lot, > which may take time. so leave those open. > > repeat that process and after 2 months you easily have 200 or more tabs > open. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From calmstorm at posteo.de Sun Jun 25 01:39:23 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:39:23 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I apologize for not knowing this sooner, In-Reply-To: References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> Message-ID: <8a61dbc1-0433-2835-d7de-38218b06f41d@posteo.de> > ah so you've not run 25 xterms, wicd-gtk, chromium with 20 tabs open, > firefox with 200+, openscad, qemu _and_ vlc all simultaneously then :) > that takes up 13 out of 16gb > > no that's a developer mindset. for ordinary average person usage, > libreoffice, one web browser maybe 3-5 tabs if that, and vlc: yes 8gb > is total overkill. I would say that even using a qemu with a winblows xp game on it while using an emulator or waterfox/icecat might almost use 4gb of ram but yeah... 8gb is insane for a normal user. I see my folly now that I learned the meaning behind that show memory used by cache as free via lxtask. well that's all. From calmstorm at posteo.de Sun Jun 25 01:47:15 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:47:15 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I apologize for not knowing this sooner, In-Reply-To: References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> Message-ID: <08cde086-cb3b-f1f9-ec36-a91d7d55a689@posteo.de> > information / history. search for one topic, explore five links > (right-mouse tab) and not find what you want, then close 1/2 of them, > open 5 more. within 5-10 minutes there are 20 tabs open on one topic. > > then get another email message, and have something else to track > down. but you're still in the middle of analysing the previous lot, > which may take time. so leave those open. > > repeat that process and after 2 months you easily have 200 or more tabs open. > > l. Actually, I also have one other thing to add, I might be wrong about my last message. it might not even use that much. But if I am correct, processors are more important for linux laptops than crazy amounts of ram right? unless, like you said they are developers. Anyways I meant to send this directly to luke so we can drop this if you wish. From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Sun Jun 25 02:22:36 2017 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 02:22:36 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I apologize for not knowing this sooner, In-Reply-To: References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> Message-ID: <30412f5e-93c8-80ae-48a2-8c1ffb330830@aross.me> On 25/06/17 00:41, Christopher Havel wrote: > I cannot comprehend the necessity of having two hundred twenty browser tabs > open, sum total... I rarely have need for one tenth of that. > > But, then, I'm not a dev. Maybe for us mere mortals, there is some > explanation? :P In my case i have multi projects on the go, at diff stages of research. >From shopping for gear "projects" (reasoned consumerism) to light weight, strong box to ship my stuff (like PA audio gear for partys/events/camp) via courier 30KG limit for £12. too umm what... solar pv and panels research, backlog of news articles, etc So not a total dev and not a total mortal. between worlds ;) ram 92% used always. firefox tor proxied and chromioum for bloddy cloudflare walled sites and for when firefox is clogged up with too many tabs :P. 16GB ram. struggled with 8gb for ages. a friend helped me out :) life saver having this much ram but now it looks like ive taken it for granted again! been having too many tabs = system slowdown problems this week. hmm time to kill some backlog and reduce project tabs.... my netbook is 2GB ram or was it 4gb...? i think its 2GB.... yea bit of a struggle on that. been using Enlightenment DE to save on ram. heres a pic: http://transfer.sh/wZbVM/Screenshot%20from%202017-06-25%2002-15-55.png TOR Link :D: http://jxm5d6emw5rknovg.onion/wZbVM/Screenshot%20from%202017-06-25%2002-15-55.png From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Jun 25 02:27:49 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 21:27:49 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I apologize for not knowing this sooner, In-Reply-To: <30412f5e-93c8-80ae-48a2-8c1ffb330830@aross.me> References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> <30412f5e-93c8-80ae-48a2-8c1ffb330830@aross.me> Message-ID: Looks exciting... From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Sun Jun 25 02:37:59 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 21:37:59 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Gigabytes for tabs despite power down. In-Reply-To: References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> Message-ID: <20170625013759.GA23211@topoi.pooq.com> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 08:04:49PM -0400, Christopher Havel wrote: > Fair enough. Suggestion: power cycling your computer more than every few > months might be good for it. I do end up power-cycling my computer; I tend not to leave it on when I put in a ventilation- and rain-proof bag to tke it somewhere. When I power it up and start the browser, it offers to restat the tabs that were open when it lost control during the power down. I get to choose which ones. It's meant as a crash-recovery mechanism, but has other uses. This is quite useful, and can lead to tabs accumulating longterm. If I actually explicitly shut down the browser, it does not rememmber all the open tabs. I could use more RAM. But my 32-bit system won't take more than 2GiB. -- hendrik From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Jun 25 02:50:06 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 21:50:06 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Gigabytes for tabs despite power down. In-Reply-To: <20170625013759.GA23211@topoi.pooq.com> References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> <20170625013759.GA23211@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: In my experience, there are few things in life slower than Chrome/Chromium after restoring a previous session... From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Sun Jun 25 12:28:14 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 07:28:14 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Gigabytes for tabs despite power down. In-Reply-To: References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> <20170625013759.GA23211@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <20170625112814.GA16199@topoi.pooq.com> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 09:50:06PM -0400, Christopher Havel wrote: > In my experience, there are few things in life slower than Chrome/Chromium > after restoring a previous session... I use firefox. It seems to do lazy restoration of tabs, which makes it somewhat more performant. I've noticed that when it gets slow, doing killall firefox-esr and the restarting it does wonders for speed. Rumour has it that firefox never releases storage for a deleted tab, causing it to bloat. I should try Chromium sometime. Chrome itself is no longer supported on 32-bit Linux. I hate the way there aren't any cross-browser bookmarks. Another form of lock-in. -- hendrik From wookey at wookware.org Sun Jun 25 13:35:19 2017 From: wookey at wookware.org (Wookey) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 13:35:19 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Gigabytes for tabs despite power down. In-Reply-To: <20170625112814.GA16199@topoi.pooq.com> References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> <20170625013759.GA23211@topoi.pooq.com> <20170625112814.GA16199@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <20170625123519.GD14304@mail.wookware.org> On 2017-06-25 07:28 -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 09:50:06PM -0400, Christopher Havel wrote: > > In my experience, there are few things in life slower than Chrome/Chromium > > after restoring a previous session... > > I use firefox. It seems to do lazy restoration of tabs, which makes it > somewhat more performant. Indeed. I have significant experience of this as I operate the same way as Luke, so have hundreds of tabs in 50-odd windows at any one time. > I've noticed that when it gets slow, doing killall firefox-esr and the > restarting it does wonders for speed. Rumour has it that firefox never > releases storage for a deleted tab, causing it to bloat. My firefox gets noticeably slow after a few days, and extremely slow after 10 or 20 with lots of 10-second 'hangs'. I have spent some time trying to find out what is going on, collecting debug logs, and have determined that it is the garbage-collection action which makes it just do nothing for several seconds. Something is making memory horrible fragmented and/or just using it up steadily and not giving it back, and it just takes longer and longer to try and collect garbage. I have not yet determined which component is doing this. I can say that for most people (who have a lot of pages open) switching from adblock plus to ublock origin will save stonking amounts of memory and make things perform rather better, just because of the way they work. > I should try Chromium sometime. Chrome itself is no longer supported on > 32-bit Linux. I have not used chromium enough to determine if it better in this 'slowdown' regard. > I hate the way there aren't any cross-browser bookmarks. Another form > of lock-in. If you are OK with remote bookmarks then you can use them from both chromium and firefox (e.g. google bookmarks), and it's quite easy to transfer them in either direction, but I don't know of a local, open, bookmark-store mechanism. Wookey -- Principal hats: Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM http://wookware.org/ From listmaster at beauxbead.com Sun Jun 25 14:29:24 2017 From: listmaster at beauxbead.com (KRT Listmaster) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 07:29:24 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Gigabytes for tabs despite power down. In-Reply-To: <20170625013759.GA23211@topoi.pooq.com> References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> <20170625013759.GA23211@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <37f6212c-04ba-6531-89cb-5c20d38e5186@beauxbead.com> On 06/24/2017 07:37 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > If I actually explicitly shut down the browser, it does not rememmber > all the open tabs. Sure it does. History -> Restore Previous Session. Works perfectly for me, even if I explicitly shut down the browser. Or are you thinking of a different behavior than what I have in mind? - KR -- This email account is used for list management only. From listmaster at beauxbead.com Sun Jun 25 14:37:25 2017 From: listmaster at beauxbead.com (KRT Listmaster) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 07:37:25 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Gigabytes for tabs despite power down. In-Reply-To: <20170625123519.GD14304@mail.wookware.org> References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> <20170625013759.GA23211@topoi.pooq.com> <20170625112814.GA16199@topoi.pooq.com> <20170625123519.GD14304@mail.wookware.org> Message-ID: <996a0e1b-ee77-664f-e063-c3f28ff5dcf0@beauxbead.com> On 06/25/2017 06:35 AM, Wookey wrote: > >> I hate the way there aren't any cross-browser bookmarks. Another form >> of lock-in. > > If you are OK with remote bookmarks then you can use them from both > chromium and firefox (e.g. google bookmarks), and it's quite easy to > transfer them in either direction, but I don't know of a local, open, > bookmark-store mechanism. > > Wookey > What about Import/Export to HTML? That's always worked well for me. Also, looking at Chromium, it seems to offer to import bookmarks from Firefox/Iceweasel (but not Icecat, from what I can tell). Likewise, Icecat seems to offer to import from Chromium (Bookmarks -> Show All Bookmarks -> Import and Backup -> Import Data from Another Browser). However, I've tested the non-HTML import/export process using only a single bookmark, so perhaps it misbehaves if you have a lot of bookmarks/structure to transfer. Does this not fulfill the task at hand? - KR -- This email account is used for list management only. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Sun Jun 25 15:24:26 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 17:24:26 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I apologize for not knowing this sooner, In-Reply-To: References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 2:41 AM, Christopher Havel wrote: > I cannot comprehend the necessity of having two hundred twenty browser tabs > open, sum total... I rarely have need for one tenth of that. I'm using 29 tabs right now after cleaning a couple. Libre Office and Rhythmbox open too. 4.3 out of 8 gigs free. Most of it is actually used memory and not cached. I open the links that I'm interested in and then leave them open until I'm done with them. You can easily get a lot of tabs, I have gone over 50 in some cases. Besides since I power off my computer every day at night I have it setup to reopen the tabs from last time I used it when I open it again. So the only escape is if I accidentally close them myself. From pablo at parobalth.org Sun Jun 25 21:35:22 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo Rath) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 22:35:22 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: References: <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> <20170620194408.GA8934@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621182641.GB3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> Message-ID: <20170625203522.GA5518@pabbook> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 07:43:07PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:26 PM, Andreas Grapentin > wrote: ... > > Parabola has concluded that we will > > for the time being need only one preview card, and I will privately pay > > for it in full. > > that would be fantastic. it's $USD 2000 a time or so to make 10 > samples. i have 9 available working 2.7.4 samples and 9 microdesktop > v1.7 pcbs. I am also on the list for a preview card. I should be able to cover at least a part of the costs to reduce pressure on myself. ... > > following are the contact information for the hacker in question: > > Andreas Grapentin (me) > > Potsdam, Germany I live in Austria, a country with a border to Germany. Would it save costs to send Andreas and my card together to Europe. Afterwards he could mail my card with a standard postal sevice to Austria (costs around 10 €) or we could do it the other way round. I would of course pay the shipping costs from Germany to Austria and half of the costs from Taiwan to Germany. kind regards Pablo From pablo at parobalth.org Sun Jun 25 21:36:13 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo Rath) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 22:36:13 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> Message-ID: <20170625203613.GB5518@pabbook> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 05:33:36PM +0200, Vincent Legoll wrote: > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > > appreciated. there are however some people who would have pledged > > only for the card, and the cable kit: they'll be expecting to use the > > cards stand-alone. > > Yes, there are some of those, I'm one for instance. Me too. > I would personally be less bothered by the lack of an SD card than the > missing HDMI. To provide my own SD card doesn't bother me at all. The missing HDMI would be bad. If this scenario happens maybe we can talk about a special offer for a micro desktop. kind regards Pablo From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 25 21:43:34 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 21:43:34 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] early access EOMA68 to hardware for parabola ARM maintainers? In-Reply-To: <20170625203522.GA5518@pabbook> References: <20170511063426.GA4252@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <17F239BA-457E-4CCB-839E-70DA5B919D19@gmail.com> <20170511135421.GB4716@pabbook> <20170511153401.GA2136@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170513200058.GA3213@arch-eyepatch> <20170620194408.GA8934@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170621182641.GB3926@parabola-pocket.localdomain> <20170625203522.GA5518@pabbook> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 9:35 PM, Pablo Rath wrote: > I am also on the list for a preview card. I should be able to cover at > least a part of the costs to reduce pressure on myself. that would be great > I live in Austria, a country with a border to Germany. > Would it save costs to send Andreas and my card together to Europe. mmmm if it can be insured for full value i would feel more comfortable with that idea. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jun 25 21:44:44 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 21:44:44 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: <20170625203613.GB5518@pabbook> References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <20170625203613.GB5518@pabbook> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 9:36 PM, Pablo Rath wrote: > To provide my own SD card doesn't bother me at all. > The missing HDMI would be bad. i know. > If this scenario happens maybe we can > talk about a special offer for a micro desktop. that's a great idea. From calmstorm at posteo.de Mon Jun 26 01:39:43 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 20:39:43 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <20170625203613.GB5518@pabbook> Message-ID: <33e14772-5c82-e272-8e25-3327d617f3dc@posteo.de> On 06/25/2017 04:44 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 9:36 PM, Pablo Rath wrote: > >> To provide my own SD card doesn't bother me at all. >> The missing HDMI would be bad. > i know. Honestly, I am beginning to wonder... because don't you need some memory storage on the system to boot it up? I think some people on request may want it already ready to go with a hop and a skip. but more importantly documentation with the order on how to start things up, etc, > >> If this scenario happens maybe we can >> talk about a special offer for a micro desktop. > that's a great idea. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jun 26 02:03:59 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 02:03:59 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: <33e14772-5c82-e272-8e25-3327d617f3dc@posteo.de> References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <20170625203613.GB5518@pabbook> <33e14772-5c82-e272-8e25-3327d617f3dc@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 1:39 AM, zap wrote: > Honestly, I am beginning to wonder... because don't you need some memory > storage on the system to boot it up? one of the available boot options (SDC0, NAND, SDC2, SPI) yes. > I think some people on request may want it already ready to go with a > hop and a skip. indeed. > but more importantly documentation with the order on how to start things > up, etc, that bit's done-ish but it'll be necessary to duplicate it on an appropriate location for the project. the issue we have is that the available budget is now severely and unavoidably depleted (as already outlined multiple times). buying 1,000 8GB MicroSD cards is no longer really an option. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Mon Jun 26 03:00:19 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 22:00:19 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <20170625203613.GB5518@pabbook> <33e14772-5c82-e272-8e25-3327d617f3dc@posteo.de> Message-ID: <6e2566f2-8466-d25d-7970-75ff8fbf5671@posteo.de> >> but more importantly documentation with the order on how to start things >> up, etc, > that bit's done-ish but it'll be necessary to duplicate it on an > appropriate location for the project. > > the issue we have is that the available budget is now severely and > unavoidably depleted (as already outlined multiple times). buying > 1,000 8GB MicroSD cards is no longer really an option. Well, even on request if we are willing to pay for the sd cards? just curious. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jun 26 03:07:44 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 03:07:44 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: <6e2566f2-8466-d25d-7970-75ff8fbf5671@posteo.de> References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <20170625203613.GB5518@pabbook> <33e14772-5c82-e272-8e25-3327d617f3dc@posteo.de> <6e2566f2-8466-d25d-7970-75ff8fbf5671@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 3:00 AM, zap wrote: >> 1,000 8GB MicroSD cards is no longer really an option. > Well, even on request if we are willing to pay for the sd cards? just > curious. that would work. From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Mon Jun 26 03:09:42 2017 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 03:09:42 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> Message-ID: <74fd6c20-725d-5eac-1057-1a4be035ddea@aross.me> While i would appreciate having hdmi. I’ll be understanding if that doesn’t happen in the end. Anyway, there be the new/next EOMA68 computer cards to look forward too anyway :) Re SDcards: Anybody can buy a SD card. EOMA68 things are more important. From calmstorm at posteo.de Mon Jun 26 08:54:13 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 03:54:13 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <20170625203613.GB5518@pabbook> <33e14772-5c82-e272-8e25-3327d617f3dc@posteo.de> <6e2566f2-8466-d25d-7970-75ff8fbf5671@posteo.de> Message-ID: <5e3b1e2d-8df6-bac1-f302-b87b14d1bd65@posteo.de> On 06/25/2017 10:07 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 3:00 AM, zap wrote: > >>> 1,000 8GB MicroSD cards is no longer really an option. >> Well, even on request if we are willing to pay for the sd cards? just >> curious. > that would work. Ah, okay good to know. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From doark at mail.com Mon Jun 26 17:06:37 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 12:06:37 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] I apologize for not knowing this sooner, In-Reply-To: <30412f5e-93c8-80ae-48a2-8c1ffb330830@aross.me> References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> <30412f5e-93c8-80ae-48a2-8c1ffb330830@aross.me> Message-ID: <20170626120637.13e6506a@ulgy_thing> On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 02:22:36 +0100 Alexander Ross wrote: > On 25/06/17 00:41, Christopher Havel wrote: > > I cannot comprehend the necessity of having two hundred twenty > > browser tabs open, sum total... I rarely have need for one tenth of > > that. > > > > But, then, I'm not a dev. Maybe for us mere mortals, there is some > > explanation? :P > > In my case i have multi projects on the go, at diff stages of research. > From shopping for gear "projects" (reasoned consumerism) to light > weight, strong box to ship my stuff (like PA audio gear for > partys/events/camp) via courier 30KG limit for £12. too umm what... > solar pv and panels research, backlog of news articles, etc This is common for me too. The tabs accumulate like this: 1. Search for "How to program in C" (or some other cool thing.) 2. Open first 15 tabs of links to sites advertising tutorials. 3. Open second list of 10 tabs for sites claiming to know the "Best" tutorial, book or other resource. 4. Go to the tabs of each website that advertised the "best" tutorial and open tabs for their recommendations. 5. Go to each tab and open tabs for every part of the tutorial. 6. Open tabs for every "This author recommends" page. 7. Open tabs for the links the authors link to and close the "This author recommends" pages. 8. Open tabs to expand all the tutorials and cool info you just got to. This is how I waste memory in FF, others may differ. Sincerely, David From doark at mail.com Mon Jun 26 16:46:04 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 11:46:04 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FPGA video decoder Message-ID: <20170626114604.6fde04b4@ulgy_thing> Hello, Some time ago Luke et al was discussing using an FPGA to decode video but thought it too expensive. Well, not that this changes anything, but I found this little beauty wile looking at something else: https://alphamaxmedia.com/w/index.php?title=NeTV2 Sincerely, David From doark at mail.com Mon Jun 26 16:55:17 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 11:55:17 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Gigabytes for tabs despite power down. In-Reply-To: <20170625123519.GD14304@mail.wookware.org> References: <3df46ed7-4198-11aa-d160-e6b4c73a9836@posteo.de> <20170625013759.GA23211@topoi.pooq.com> <20170625112814.GA16199@topoi.pooq.com> <20170625123519.GD14304@mail.wookware.org> Message-ID: <20170626115517.2ccfeed4@ulgy_thing> On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 13:35:19 +0100 Wookey wrote: > On 2017-06-25 07:28 -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 09:50:06PM -0400, Christopher Havel wrote: > > > In my experience, there are few things in life slower than > > > Chrome/Chromium after restoring a previous session... > > > > I use firefox. It seems to do lazy restoration of tabs, which makes > > it somewhat more performant. > > Indeed. I have significant experience of this as I operate the same > way as Luke, so have hundreds of tabs in 50-odd windows at any one > time. If only there was a better option... > > I should try Chromium sometime. Chrome itself is no longer supported > > on 32-bit Linux. > > I have not used chromium enough to determine if it better in this > 'slowdown' regard. I have, chromium uses lots of memory, just like FF. It has even worse troubles when it comes to more than 10 yabs. As for a slowdown over the course of several days, I've not tried it because of the above problems. > > I hate the way there aren't any cross-browser bookmarks. Another > > form of lock-in. > > If you are OK with remote bookmarks then you can use them from both > chromium and firefox (e.g. google bookmarks), and it's quite easy to > transfer them in either direction, but I don't know of a local, open, > bookmark-store mechanism. XBEL is an xml format for bookmarks. Elinks can use it, I don't know about FF or chromium. http://xbel.sourceforge.net/ Sincerely, David From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Tue Jun 27 04:56:12 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 21:56:12 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: <74fd6c20-725d-5eac-1057-1a4be035ddea@aross.me> References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <74fd6c20-725d-5eac-1057-1a4be035ddea@aross.me> Message-ID: > On Jun 25, 2017, at 20:09, Alexander Ross wrote: > While i would appreciate having hdmi. I’ll be understanding if that > doesn’t happen in the end. Anyway, there be the new/next EOMA68 computer > cards to look forward too anyway :) In the interest of solving the challenge of integrating the HDMI connector, I have a few questions: 1. Is there a publicly-accessible spot from which I can download the schematics and pcb files? (I found http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/pcb/ is that the correct place?) 2. How many copper layers does this board have? 3. What is the minimum trace size? 4. What is the minimum trace spacing? 5. Is the minimum plated through hole diameter 6 mil? 6. Did this message (composed on my iPhone E-mail client) come through in HTML or simple text? The Amphenol part has 0.15mm clearance between lands for even row of pins and board edge in cutout while Molex 468753011 has 0.9mm clearance in the same spot. Sincerely, Richard From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Tue Jun 27 07:15:24 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 02:15:24 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <74fd6c20-725d-5eac-1057-1a4be035ddea@aross.me> Message-ID: <20170627061524.GA5248@topoi.pooq.com> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 09:56:12PM -0600, Richard Wilbur wrote: ... ... > 6. Did this message (composed on my iPhone E-mail client) come through in HTML or simple text? I got it as simple text. There was not even an HTML attachment. -- hendrik From pelzflorian at pelzflorian.de Tue Jun 27 10:25:07 2017 From: pelzflorian at pelzflorian.de (pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 11:25:07 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Pangea Electronics Message-ID: <20170627092507.GA812@eduroam-ipv4-3-0762.triple-a.uni-kl.de> Hi, I told someone about EOMA68. When they Google searched for “modular laptop“ in German, they got this: http://pangeaelectronics.com/EN/index.html I don’t know what you think of that or if they would care about EOMA. To me the Web site looks more like they are interested in vendor lock-in, but who knows. Regards, Florian From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jun 27 12:16:44 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:16:44 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <74fd6c20-725d-5eac-1057-1a4be035ddea@aross.me> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 4:56 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: >> On Jun 25, 2017, at 20:09, Alexander Ross wrote: >> While i would appreciate having hdmi. I’ll be understanding if that >> doesn’t happen in the end. Anyway, there be the new/next EOMA68 computer >> cards to look forward too anyway :) > > In the interest of solving the challenge of integrating the HDMI connector, I have a few questions: > 1. Is there a publicly-accessible spot from which I can download the schematics and pcb files? (I found http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/pcb/ is that the correct place?) not yet. > 2. How many copper layers does this board have? 6 > 3. What is the minimum trace size? 3.5 mil > 4. What is the minimum trace spacing? 3.5 mil > 5. Is the minimum plated through hole diameter 6 mil? yes From njansen1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 27 14:08:00 2017 From: njansen1 at gmail.com (Neil Jansen) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 09:08:00 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Pangea Electronics In-Reply-To: <20170627092507.GA812@eduroam-ipv4-3-0762.triple-a.uni-kl.de> References: <20170627092507.GA812@eduroam-ipv4-3-0762.triple-a.uni-kl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 5:25 AM, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) < pelzflorian at pelzflorian.de> wrote: > Hi, > > I told someone about EOMA68. When they Google searched for “modular > laptop“ in German, they got this: > > http://pangeaelectronics.com/EN/index.html > > I don’t know what you think of that or if they would care about > EOMA. To me the Web site looks more like they are interested in vendor > lock-in, but who knows. > They look like a little startup company that was born out of a FabLab. Chances are they're small enough at this point to be approached. But my guess.. If these guys are going after VC money, they will put whatever principles they have aside when the VC tells them to. I say this from experience, I've been the CEO of a hardware startup, done the business incubator thing, and have taken seed money. It never turns out well. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Tue Jun 27 15:05:55 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 08:05:55 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: <20170627061524.GA5248@topoi.pooq.com> References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <74fd6c20-725d-5eac-1057-1a4be035ddea@aross.me> <20170627061524.GA5248@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <80AB1399-4A2B-4DF8-95EA-EF085C1D4CFF@gmail.com> > On Jun 27, 2017, at 00:15, Hendrik Boom wrote: >> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 09:56:12PM -0600, Richard Wilbur wrote: >> 6. Did this message (composed on my iPhone E-mail client) come through in HTML or simple text? > > I got it as simple text. There was not even an HTML attachment. Thanks for the feedback. I'm so thankful it is text as that greatly simplifies my interaction with this mailing list when I am away from my desktop! From calmstorm at posteo.de Tue Jun 27 15:22:30 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 10:22:30 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] thoughts, for the future or a late future, Message-ID: <2caa5ce0-fceb-cc04-15b0-df5f132d4d6a@posteo.de> but I think whenever you decide to make a new eoma68 laptop design, make it a 13 inch instead of 11 inch. aka, more space, means more durability heat-wise... This would be even more effective whenever you start making your own processors probably because then it wouldn't need to be as low This is one idea I just wanted to throw at ya, but another idea came to me, its just an idea of course, but a libertybsd based router would be ultra secure I bet. if it is possible I mean. ;) Libertybsd = openbsd without blobs ps, if you decide to make a processor from lowrisc, will it have 3d acceleration/support for the latest opengl? Those are my thoughts for now. Tell me what you think. From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Tue Jun 27 15:49:18 2017 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 09:49:18 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] thoughts, for the future or a late future, In-Reply-To: <2caa5ce0-fceb-cc04-15b0-df5f132d4d6a@posteo.de> References: <2caa5ce0-fceb-cc04-15b0-df5f132d4d6a@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 9:22 AM, zap wrote: > but I think whenever you decide to make a new eoma68 laptop design, make > it a 13 inch instead of 11 inch. > > aka, more space, means more durability heat-wise... What? The current EOMA68 laptop is 15 inch, not 11 or 13. It's even bigger than what you're seem to be asking for. I would personally prefer a 13 inch for portability, and possibly a lower price, but that is besides the point. From shymega at shymega.org.uk Tue Jun 27 16:53:20 2017 From: shymega at shymega.org.uk (Dom Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 16:53:20 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] thoughts, for the future or a late future, References: <2caa5ce0-fceb-cc04-15b0-df5f132d4d6a@posteo.de> Message-ID: <87h8z1l95b.fsf@dzr13-desktop0.l2.r.net> Hello, Louis Pearson writes: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 9:22 AM, zap wrote: >> but I think whenever you decide to make a new eoma68 laptop design, make >> it a 13 inch instead of 11 inch. >> >> aka, more space, means more durability heat-wise... > > What? The current EOMA68 laptop is 15 inch, not 11 or 13. It's even > bigger than what you're seem to be asking for. I would personally > prefer a 13 inch for portability, and possibly a lower price, but > that is besides the point. Hmm, I didn't read what zap said like that. I understood it to mean a laptop to be made *alongside* the existing EOMA68 15" laptop. But I certainly didn't interpret it the way you have. I mean, I'd love a 11" or 13" EOMA68 - 15" is not really my style, to be honest, and I agree ref: lower price - but I do not know what is going on there - i.e, can it be brought down (price)? > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- Kind regards, Dom Rodriguez (shymega/dzr{_,}) Happy hacking! From calmstorm at posteo.de Wed Jun 28 04:56:52 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 23:56:52 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] thoughts, for the future or a late future, In-Reply-To: References: <2caa5ce0-fceb-cc04-15b0-df5f132d4d6a@posteo.de> Message-ID: <42b5fef5-144f-4292-89aa-3e61ea92c56d@posteo.de> On 06/27/2017 10:49 AM, Louis Pearson wrote: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 9:22 AM, zap wrote: >> but I think whenever you decide to make a new eoma68 laptop design, make >> it a 13 inch instead of 11 inch. >> >> aka, more space, means more durability heat-wise... > What? The current EOMA68 laptop is 15 inch, not 11 or 13. It's even bigger than > what you're seem to be asking for. I would personally prefer a 13 inch > for portability, > and possibly a lower price, but that is besides the point. No, I meant like for whenever he decides to make a smaller one. I would be okay with a similar or even larger price. But that's besides the point, if he sees this thread, I hope he understands that I am not expecting him to do anything for a long while. Although, this could be my foolish hope, but yeah it would be nice. From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 05:21:52 2017 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 23:21:52 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] thoughts, for the future or a late future, In-Reply-To: <42b5fef5-144f-4292-89aa-3e61ea92c56d@posteo.de> References: <2caa5ce0-fceb-cc04-15b0-df5f132d4d6a@posteo.de> <42b5fef5-144f-4292-89aa-3e61ea92c56d@posteo.de> Message-ID: Oh, sorry for jumping to wrong conclusions then! From luke.leighton at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 14:04:06 2017 From: luke.leighton at gmail.com (lkcl .) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 14:04:06 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: The PowerPC Notebook campaign has just started In-Reply-To: <1efd85dc3b71f6de43be5d1e2f876615@powerpc-notebook.org> References: <3af9c811e1d233bc11a981b9c138ea6f@powerpc-notebook.org> <44538d97418d8384486cc42c9fa8dbd2@powerpc-notebook.org> <5ebc2431e7ccbaddff432cfefc8034e9@powerpc-notebook.org> <22eae86189ef39f5ab3dbe3c6b78d1e4@powerpc-notebook.org> <1efd85dc3b71f6de43be5d1e2f876615@powerpc-notebook.org> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 12:00 AM Subject: The PowerPC Notebook campaign has just started To: "lkcl ." Hi Luke, I know you are very busy with your EOMA68 Computing Devices, in any case, I ask you to share that we have started our Donation Campaign the PowerPC Notebook project, if you lake to share it and in case donate something your are welcome. https://www.powerpc-notebook.org/campaigns/electrical-schematics-notebook-powerpc-motherboard-donation-campaign/ Thanks From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jun 28 14:14:50 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 14:14:50 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] thoughts, for the future or a late future, In-Reply-To: <2caa5ce0-fceb-cc04-15b0-df5f132d4d6a@posteo.de> References: <2caa5ce0-fceb-cc04-15b0-df5f132d4d6a@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:22 PM, zap wrote: > but I think whenever you decide to make a new eoma68 laptop design, make > it a 13 inch instead of 11 inch. if a sponsor comes forward with around $USD 20,000 to 30,000 or if that money can be raised by some other means then yes. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Wed Jun 28 15:39:01 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 10:39:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] thoughts, for the future or a late future, In-Reply-To: References: <2caa5ce0-fceb-cc04-15b0-df5f132d4d6a@posteo.de> Message-ID: <223d0045-55f6-730d-50dc-e77122553de7@posteo.de> On 06/28/2017 09:14 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:22 PM, zap wrote: >> but I think whenever you decide to make a new eoma68 laptop design, make >> it a 13 inch instead of 11 inch. > if a sponsor comes forward with around $USD 20,000 to 30,000 or if > that money can be raised by some other means then yes. I bet something like that will happen in the future, probably not for a while though. I assume chris from thinkpenguin isn't interested at this time right? At some point I think it would be awesome to have a polling to see how many people are interested in new ideas such as this, etc, From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 15:41:49 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 10:41:49 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: The PowerPC Notebook campaign has just started In-Reply-To: References: <3af9c811e1d233bc11a981b9c138ea6f@powerpc-notebook.org> <44538d97418d8384486cc42c9fa8dbd2@powerpc-notebook.org> <5ebc2431e7ccbaddff432cfefc8034e9@powerpc-notebook.org> <22eae86189ef39f5ab3dbe3c6b78d1e4@powerpc-notebook.org> <1efd85dc3b71f6de43be5d1e2f876615@powerpc-notebook.org> Message-ID: Haha, I remember PowerPC. Mac stuff, mostly, despite being an IBM creation IIRC. Last I heard (years ago) there were scaling problems, couldn't crank up the MHz enough fast enough to satisfy the general public -- most of whom don't understand clock speed to begin with... From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Fri Jun 30 03:32:56 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 20:32:56 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <74fd6c20-725d-5eac-1057-1a4be035ddea@aross.me> Message-ID: <1DAA53E0-C7C8-4DED-8E62-087C2B20AFE6@gmail.com> Until I get an opportunity to review the design files it is difficult to make detailed recommendations. Have you identified which signals are affected? Have you been able to determine which signals are leaking into the affected signals? If the image posted with the update[*] is representative of the board geometry, it looks like there could be direct electromagnetic coupling of the 4 HDMI differential pair transmission lines as follows: HTX0 <-> HTX1, HTX2 <-> HTX1, HTX2 <-> HTXC. This could be caused by (and ameliorated by) the following: 1. HTX0 <-> HTX1 Cause: Microstrips are antennae with cross-section consisting of the area between the pair of differential conductors. These two are traveling in parallel on different layers through the ESD section with overlapping antenna area. Possible Remediation: move U10 "up" or "down" far enough relative to the pair on the other side of the pcb that these two pairs don't exhibit any overlapping antenna area 2. HTX2 <-> HTX1 Cause: HTX1P has length correction loop just before reaching the land on CON3 pin 6. I applaud the strategy of clustering impedance discontinuities, thus putting the loop near CON3. The problem is that this expanded antenna cross-section on HTX1 face an HTX2 microstrip antenna. Possible Remediation: Move HTX1P length-compensating loop so it doesn't couple to any other high-speed antenna. 3. HTX2 <-> HTXC Cause: Near edge of vignette, microstrip antennae directly facing each other as they leave the field of view. Possible Remediation: Move microstrips relative to each other so that there is no shared cross section. -- Richard Reference: [*] http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/news/ From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Jun 30 03:45:46 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 03:45:46 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: <1DAA53E0-C7C8-4DED-8E62-087C2B20AFE6@gmail.com> References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <74fd6c20-725d-5eac-1057-1a4be035ddea@aross.me> <1DAA53E0-C7C8-4DED-8E62-087C2B20AFE6@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 3:32 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > Until I get an opportunity to review the design files it is difficult to make detailed recommendations. Have you identified which signals are affected? no - i do not have access to equipment which will allow me to make such a determination. > Have you been able to determine which signals are leaking into the affected signals? ditto... basically this is all guess-work and experimentation. ok, so what i'm planning to do, richard, is a redesign of this entire area, starting by widening the PCB by 1mm. this should allow me to put several diff-pairs on the same layer (i'll start by trying to put them all on layer 3, see how that goes). would you be happy to advise before it goes to pre-production? l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Fri Jun 30 06:25:12 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 23:25:12 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update, In-Reply-To: References: <729312675.2922981.1498019518849.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <729312675.2922981.1498019518849@mail.yahoo.com> <594A892D.6040009@posteo.de> <74fd6c20-725d-5eac-1057-1a4be035ddea@aross.me> <1DAA53E0-C7C8-4DED-8E62-087C2B20AFE6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9879B946-F4FF-4E33-90F0-33D3F0A84F28@gmail.com> On Jun 29, 2017, at 20:45, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 3:32 AM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: >> Until I get an opportunity to review the design files it is difficult to make detailed recommendations. Have you identified which signals are affected? > > no - i do not have access to equipment which will allow me to make > such a determination. I guess you would need a pretty fast oscilloscope with at least 1 GHz bandwidth >> Have you been able to determine which signals are leaking into the affected signals? > > ditto... basically this is all guess-work and experimentation. > > ok, so what i'm planning to do, richard, is a redesign of this entire > area, starting by widening the PCB by 1mm. this should allow me to > put several diff-pairs on the same layer (i'll start by trying to put > them all on layer 3, see how that goes). > > would you be happy to advise before it goes to pre-production? > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk