[Arm-netbook] Warning about tablets/netbooks with detachable keyboards
albert.aribaud at free.fr
Wed Dec 14 20:02:07 GMT 2016
Le Wed, 14 Dec 2016 20:23:39 +0100
dumblob <dumblob at gmail.com> a écrit:
> Hi Albert,
> Speaking of which, only the drivers should be affected by detaching /
> > attaching a detachable keyboard, and precisely, the drivers should
> > handle things so that upper layers don't need to care about the
> > keyboard attached/detached state (except very specific parts of the
> > UI, e.g. to show the detached/attached state and/or pop up a
> > software keyboard when the HW one is not here and keyboard input is
> > needed). Most certainly "all daemons up to GUI" should not be
> > involved IMO.
> Actually, not only driver needs to know it. Kernel needs to correctly
> pass the info about what has happened to HAL (udev, etc.), then
> daemons reacting to attaching/detaching devices (dbus, *bus, systemd,
> running terminals, PAM, etc.) up to GUI (window manager must not
> reset the layout; all input methods like SCIM/IBus/uim must preserve
> all pressed states etc.; mappings of different long-running
> applications like widgets or icons in tray should keep their state;
> user shortcuts must not get lost; running applications should not
> reset any input streams to not interrupt the current functionality,
I am far from convinced that all of this is sensitive to whether one
keyboard was plugged or unplugged from the system. Why would icons
in the tray be affected by the number of keyboards connected to the
computer, for instance?
> All these have to handle the interruptions in a way, that they
> exactly (!) set the full device state back to the state before
> interruption. They also need to support these interruptions coming
> very quickly consecutively (e.g. each milisecond).
> Basically such interruption demands a full hot swap functionality,
> which is basically not present anywhere in the stack I described
> above (yeah, 99.99% daemons and applications count on the fact, that
> the initial state will not change during their runtime).
I am having a hard time trying to make sense of what you're saying,
which is frustrating, as I've been doing embedded development for more
that 20 years. For instance:
- I am surprised that all of a sudden, all SW in a computer has to
handle interruptions. In my time (which extends to just about a few
days ago), only drivers did. "Driver" is basically the name we give
to thoses pieces of SW which handle interrupts (and talk to HW and do
DMA requests and...)
- Nor did any of the systems I worked, and still work on, require that
the full system state be saved and restored on interrupts; in fact,
if they did completely save and restore their state, they interrupts
would have no effect whatsoever, which would be a pity. Granted,
interrupt handlers must save whatever CPU resources they use, and
schedulers must do the same with task states; but that's hardly a
concern outside of these two cases.
- Finally, the daemons in my time /did/ expect their state to change all
the time. They actually were /intended/ to change state, in carefully
designed ways; a daemon executing in an immutable environment would
have little utility.
Joke apart, I really don't agree with your description of systems as
holistic constructions which would be affected throughout by any event
happening in a device (except, precisely, from a holistic viewpoint,
which I like in Dirk Gently, but carefully avoid in my day-to-day
embedded developing and debugging). Mastering complex SW is precisely
about avoiding that all things be interconnected (alright, not *only*
about that, but about that too).
> It's really extremely frustrating when an old USB connector looses
> contact for a milisecond and my external keyboard gets redected and
> all the settings are totally lost (in terminal a different keyboard
> and without my key bindings - which might be impossible to manually
> reset because of the need of root permissions; the same in X except
> for the root permissions; the same with all running applications; the
> same everywhere).
I don't know what is the setup on which you encounter these issues; on
mine, I can connect and disconnect keyboards at will, with nothing even
so much as flipping a bit when I do, and my keyboards don't even lose
their French layout :) -- same goes for USB devices which need to get
their firmware uploaded through USB; granted, every time I unplug and
replug them, thy take time to get their firmware /again/, and yes,
trying to use a video capture device won't work if you unplug it right
in the middle of it, but you can hardly expect otherwise, and it's only
logical that plugging it back won't fix the overall problem.
> An extreme case are security modules (e.g. YubiKey)
> or security SW demanding uninterrupted connection of a certain device
> (due to possible MiM attacks etc.).
As you say, this is an extreme example. In fact, it is precisely an
example of a setup where continuous connection is laid out a priori as
a /requirement/; no wonder, then, that discontinuity of connection is
But not all setups require continuous connection, far from that, and
for keyboards particularly, disconnection and reconnection scenarios
are known and handled cleanly without all application code needing to
be written specially for that.
> Just my 2 cents from real world.
You should be careful with the way you express yourself: one could be
led to believe that here you are implying I would not know of the real
world whereas you do, and that this implied difference would make my
opinion less worthy than yours. But of course you are not implying
that, since you do no know me at all, right ?
So let's avoid anyone getting false ideas, and to that effect, let's
stay away from hypothetically real vs hypothetically unreal worlds, and
let's just keep to technical discussion with technical and precise
arguments. Shall we?
> -- Jan
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