off topic:
I’m finding this insightful as to why luke was treated the way he was by a number of allwinner :( people:
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/11/the_u_s_should...
bit in particular i just read:
" Just as one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist, one country’s “soft power” is another’s weaponized values and existential threat. Because Americans see their values and interests as essentially benign, they completely miss how those abroad interpret what seem like harmless acts. (The Chinese and the Russians read Soft Power: The Means to Success in World Politics, too, and they’re on to you.) Furthermore, much of the Chinese and Russian political class believe the West’s insistence on democracy and human rights is not merely distasteful and unnecessary, but a concerted way to weaken and destabilize them. As it is, Chinese Communist Party cadres are instructed by party bosses to be vigilant against “American efforts to overthrow the communist system through ‘peaceful evolution’—that is, the spread of Western ideas and culture.” Now imagine what the turbo-freedom of America’s global internet looks like to them.
Actually, you don’t have to imagine it. In 2011, two years after President Obama’s town hall meeting with future Chinese leaders in Shanghai, the state-run newspaper China People’s Daily editorialized about the United States’ deployment of shadow networks in authoritarian countries: “The US State Department has carefully framed its support of such projects as promoting free speech and human rights, but it is clear that the policy is aimed at destabilizing national governments.” It called Tor—software that helps people mask their location—“a weapon in a covert cyber war intended to maintain the US’ global dominance.” "
LOL teaching to population that the tool that helps them is in fact the enemy, classic. the us funded tor cus a sub department needed such a tool too. while other departments hate it :)
...but yes the powers that be speak BS about freedom,etc when they them selfs are promoting the surveillance - the never forget state. it will be logged, it will be jugged. the citizens will be given a treat level to the state and status quo rating. or some other named way of categorisation.
Actually, you don’t have to imagine it. In 2011, two years after President Obama’s town hall meeting with future Chinese leaders in Shanghai, the state-run newspaper China People’s Daily editorialized about the United States’ deployment of shadow networks in authoritarian countries: “The US State Department has carefully framed its support of such projects as promoting free speech and human rights, but it is clear that the policy is aimed at destabilizing national governments.” It called Tor—software that helps people mask their location—“a weapon in a covert cyber war intended to maintain the US’ global dominance.” "
LOL teaching to population that the tool that helps them is in fact the enemy, classic. the us funded tor cus a sub department needed such a tool too. while other departments hate it :)
Yeah. I think this speaks to just how hard it is to see different perspectives, even on the internet where there are (in theory) no borders. As a US citizen it's clear to me that politicians here are wary of privacy-preserving technologies like Tor. (And PGP and OTR - hello crypto wars!) Overseas maybe that's less apparent.
Of course this could all be the result of complex plots within the US government and foreign governments, but I tend to believe that it's more just a lack of exposure to different cultural values.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 1:46 AM, Jonathan Frederickson silverskullpsu@gmail.com wrote:
Of course this could all be the result of complex plots within the US government and foreign governments, but I tend to believe that it's more just a lack of exposure to different cultural values.
very much so, i feel. in essence: no one size fits all, and now we see even emerging countries are beginning to wake up to the massive over-reach and destruction of sovereignty that the U.S. has been undertaking for decades. the key point of the fascinating and rather long article [1] is that various small countries are viewing U.S. diplomatic and political efforts finally for what it is: extremist imperialist domination. unfortunately they're not the only country that's historically manipulated entire [small] countries, but the point is we kiiinda expect it to *be* history... not still happening *right now*.
now, i'm not one for just "complaining": there's enough of that crap going on already. i very much like to also suggest actual solutions, and in this instance there happens to be a perfect fit: look up someone called "robert david steele". there's an extremely good article about him in 2014 by the guardian [2]. he started the "open source intelligence" movement. a quote:
Today’s capitalism, he argues, is inherently predatory and destructive:
“Over the course of the last centuries, the commons was fenced, and everything from agriculture to water was commoditised without regard to the true cost in non-renewable resources. Human beings, who had spent centuries evolving away from slavery, were re-commoditised by the Industrial Era.”
huh. how about that. someone else who recognises that "employment" is nothing more than a rebadged, re-introduced form of slavery. don't believe me? if you're a software engineer actually READ your employment contract. paying particular attention to the intelligence enslavement clauses. the ones that say that your employer owns absolutely everything that you do, think and say. if it wasn't enslavement, you would be REWARDED in direct proportion to the value of the work that you provide. you don't: you get paid a quotes fair wage quotes. fuck off if you actually want *shock horror* shares in the company!
yyeah....
holy fuck i had no idea: "the west supports 42 of 44 [world] dictators".
[1] http://m.journal-neo.org/2016/11/09/philippines-triggers-asian-tectonic-shif... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jun/19/open-sourc...
On November 27, 2016 6:12:03 PM PST, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 1:46 AM, Jonathan Frederickson silverskullpsu@gmail.com wrote:
Of course this could all be the result of complex plots within the US government and foreign governments, but I tend to believe that it's more just a lack of exposure to different cultural values.
very much so, i feel. in essence: no one size fits all, and now we see even emerging countries are beginning to wake up to the massive over-reach and destruction of sovereignty that the U.S. has been undertaking for decades. the key point of the fascinating and rather long article [1] is that various small countries are viewing U.S. diplomatic and political efforts finally for what it is: extremist imperialist domination. unfortunately they're not the only country that's historically manipulated entire [small] countries, but the point is we kiiinda expect it to *be* history... not still happening *right now*.
I'm finding this perspective quite enlightening. From inside the US, although a lot of us know we are propagandized and foreign policy is full of ulterior motives, it's not often one considers the opposite view as a citizen of another country.
now, i'm not one for just "complaining": there's enough of that crap going on already. i very much like to also suggest actual solutions, and in this instance there happens to be a perfect fit: look up someone called "robert david steele". there's an extremely good article about him in 2014 by the guardian [2]. he started the "open source intelligence" movement. a quote:
Today’s capitalism, he argues, is inherently predatory and destructive:
“Over the course of the last centuries, the commons was fenced, and everything from agriculture to water was commoditised without regard to the true cost in non-renewable resources. Human beings, who had spent centuries evolving away from slavery, were re-commoditised by the Industrial Era.”
huh. how about that. someone else who recognises that "employment" is nothing more than a rebadged, re-introduced form of slavery. don't believe me? if you're a software engineer actually READ your employment contract. paying particular attention to the intelligence enslavement clauses. the ones that say that your employer owns absolutely everything that you do, think and say. if it wasn't enslavement, you would be REWARDED in direct proportion to the value of the work that you provide. you don't: you get paid a quotes fair wage quotes. fuck off if you actually want *shock horror* shares in the company!
There's a zen-slap for me. I'm a wage-slave and so is nearly everyone around me.
Furthermore, much of the Chinese and Russian political class believe the West’s insistence on democracy and human rights is not merely distasteful and unnecessary, but a concerted way to weaken and destabilize them.
Here's a view from inside of Russia. Russian TV is full of anti-west propaganda. Every day I hear ppl discussing how some bad stuff is happening in US, Europe or Ukraine and how Russian patriotism and Orthodox Church are the foundation upon which you should live.
But it is forbidden to talk about Russian issues. Anyone who dares gets sued, arrested, tortured or killed. Russian authorities use a blacklist of sites and do DPI to make sure that nobody will find a way to opposition sites that bring up Russian issues. They also have the legal capacity to store all internet traffic for 6 months.
Nowadays, about 90% of my traffic goes through Tor or VPN because there's simply no other way to get information.
But most people don't care about these issues, they are simply trying to survive and not die of starvation. There is no hope in fixing this from the inside, Russia as a country has no future. NATO should invade and grab all the western territories while China will surely grab Siberia.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 3:51 AM, FaTony fatony@fatony.net wrote:
But most people don't care about these issues, they are simply trying to survive and not die of starvation. There is no hope in fixing this from the inside, Russia as a country has no future. NATO should invade and grab all the western territories while China will surely grab Siberia.
you have to have hope, man. i had no idea things were that bad, it would seem thet russia's feeling the effects of what robert david steele describes as being an endemic and systemic power-corruption, just as much as anywhere.
he does however point out that the "poor" have, collectively, *MORE* buying-power than the 1% elite who keep them oppressed and suppressed. do read what he wrote because i feel that you will see that there is always hope.
l.
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton:
you have to have hope, man. i had no idea things were that bad, it would seem thet russia's feeling the effects of what robert david steele describes as being an endemic and systemic power-corruption, just as much as anywhere.
he does however point out that the "poor" have, collectively, *MORE* buying-power than the 1% elite who keep them oppressed and suppressed. do read what he wrote because i feel that you will see that there is always hope.
l.
It would require the average Joe to be able to see beyond his nose. I had to convince my parents and friends to vote. Half of them didn't care and the other half didn't think their vote matters. The latter is mostly true as elections are almost completely rigged and there is now a popular meme "146%" because that is a total amount of votes if you add all parties together according to a federal TV report.
There was one notable exception. Alexey Navalny was running for a mayor of Moscow and got the 2nd place with ~20% votes. After that, he was quickly arrested and was about to get a prison sentence but managed to avoid it. But his brother didn't though, he's still in prison.
Here's what peaceful protest gives you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ildar_Dadin This guy can die any day now.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 3:58 PM, FaTony fatony@fatony.net wrote:
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton:
you have to have hope, man. i had no idea things were that bad, it would seem thet russia's feeling the effects of what robert david steele describes as being an endemic and systemic power-corruption, just as much as anywhere.
he does however point out that the "poor" have, collectively, *MORE* buying-power than the 1% elite who keep them oppressed and suppressed. do read what he wrote because i feel that you will see that there is always hope.
l.
It would require the average Joe to be able to see beyond his nose.
robert david steele calls that the "tunisian fruit seller" tipping point. it'll happen.
I had to convince my parents and friends to vote. Half of them didn't care and the other half didn't think their vote matters. The latter is mostly true as elections are almost completely rigged and there is now a popular meme "146%" because that is a total amount of votes if you add all parties together according to a federal TV report.
brazen. amazing.
There was one notable exception. Alexey Navalny was running for a mayor of Moscow and got the 2nd place with ~20% votes. After that, he was quickly arrested and was about to get a prison sentence but managed to avoid it. But his brother didn't though, he's still in prison.
ahh - yes: to make sure alexey behaves. very clever. well, read what robert steele writes: he points out that we can just sit here and cower before these people, or we can use transparency and open-ness to say "ENOUGH", and take responsibility for ourselves.
for computing, i'm merely presenting people with the *opportunity* to own their own hardware: that's just one small part (quite a strategically important one) but it's part of something much bigger that people have to wake up to.
never give up hope, fatony.
l.
On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 03:51:00 +0000 FaTony fatony@fatony.net wrote:
Furthermore, much of the Chinese and Russian political class believe the West’s insistence on democracy and human rights is not merely distasteful and unnecessary, but a concerted way to weaken and destabilize them.
It doen't look very different from the "west", that is the "US empire". As the "US empire" I mean the USA and various countries under its cultural influence, which affects business practices, the laws, people's opinion, etc.
Here's a view from inside of Russia. Russian TV is full of anti-west propaganda. Every day I hear ppl discussing how some bad stuff is happening in US, Europe or Ukraine and how Russian patriotism and Orthodox Church are the foundation upon which you should live.
The same is happening in US, Europe and around the world trough propaganda too: Many US movies contains very heavy propaganda, and heavily uses classical conditioning[1]. In such movies, eastern-type people are often the bad people (criminals, etc).
But it is forbidden to talk about Russian issues. Anyone who dares gets sued, arrested, tortured or killed.
In the "US empire", talking about issues is called whistleblowing, and you also get sued, arrested, tortured. - Some got sued (Thomas Drake). - Some got sued, arrested, and tortured in prison[2] (Chelsea Manning).
As for being killed, I don't know any clear example with a smoking gun, but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
Russian authorities use a blacklist of sites and do DPI to make sure that nobody will find a way to opposition sites that bring up Russian issues.
As for the DPI and websites blacklist, I don't have enough inforamtion on that. DPI and websites blocking do exist[4], but it seems to be less way less extensively. Propaganda is probably way more efficent.
They also have the legal capacity to store all internet traffic for 6 months.
On many countries of the "US empire", there are also legal requirement to store at least part of the trafic.
But most people don't care about these issues, they are simply trying to survive and not die of starvation.
Same in the "US empire", due to unemployment, people are also trying to survive.
Ironically, starvation and unemployment are deeply linked to the lack of political freedom, because: - The law is a really powerful coercion mechanism which can constraint even the most powerful companies. - The law is supposed to be the expression of the general will[5]. And people can decide among themselves how they want to live, and might decide that tackling starvation is more important than other objectives.
And the "US Empire" isn't free either, most of its countries are tyranical[6].
PS: - Privacy is necessary. Its absence benefits totalitarism. - Public discourse is necessary too, its absence also benefit totalitarism.
As an individual, balancing the two in a world that try to attack both is complicated.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning#Detention [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Murdock#Death [4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks#2006.E2.80.9308 [5]La loi est l'expression de la volonté générale [6]https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionnaire_philosophique/Garnier_%281878%29...
Denis.
But it is forbidden to talk about Russian issues. Anyone who dares gets sued, arrested, tortured or killed.
In the "US empire", talking about issues is called whistleblowing, and you also get sued, arrested, tortured.
whistleblowing is a fairly special kind of "talking about issues". Most cases of "talking about issues" in the west are not silenced by suing/arresting/torturing/killing but by other means (mostly, by making sure those messages stay confined to marginal circles, so if some of them ever reach a wider audience, they sound much too outlandish to have any credibility). The confinement happens mostly by drowning the signal.
Stefan
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 01:27:00AM +0000, Alexander Ross wrote:
off topic:
I’m finding this insightful as to why luke was treated the way he was by a number of allwinner :( people:
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/11/the_u_s_should...
bit in particular i just read:
I mostly liked the bits in the end:
"
When President Obama paraphrases the U.S. cybersecurity strategy at a town hall meeting in China as “the more freely information flows, the stronger societies become,” China thinks, “You’re a guest and that’s just rude.”
When the U.S. says, “We will work with partners in industry, academia, and NGOs to harness the power of connection technologies and apply them to our diplomatic goals,” Russia thinks, “We were so right to kick out those foreign NGOs.”
"
I'd also like to add my own:
When the U.S. says: "We would like your citizens to have proper access to the Internet", North Korea thinks, "We are to allow our citizens to hear what happens in the South and to hear slander about our fearless leader."
I love the smell of post-truth in the morning. Also, I guess you have a really good internet connection in Shenzen.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Tzafrir Cohen tzafrir@cohens.org.il wrote:
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 01:27:00AM +0000, Alexander Ross wrote:
off topic:
I’m finding this insightful as to why luke was treated the way he was by a number of allwinner :( people:
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/11/the_u_s_should...
bit in particular i just read:
I mostly liked the bits in the end:
"
When President Obama paraphrases the U.S. cybersecurity strategy at a town hall meeting in China as “the more freely information flows, the stronger societies become,” China thinks, “You’re a guest and that’s just rude.”
When the U.S. says, “We will work with partners in industry, academia, and NGOs to harness the power of connection technologies and apply them to our diplomatic goals,” Russia thinks, “We were so right to kick out those foreign NGOs.”
https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/11/26/0813222/schools-funded-by-gates-and... https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/06/18/1919211/bill-gates-donation-of-thous...
professor yunus explains it best, that people need to feel empowered to uplift *themselves*.
I love the smell of post-truth in the morning.
:)
Also, I guess you have a really good internet connection in Shenzen.
just one that can tolerate openvpn. the connection speed is around the 30-50k/sec mark, which is just enough for browsers to not trigger SSL session establishment timeouts or browser page timeouts on a regular basis. in shenzhen where it was around the 10-15k/sec mark, that was where it was completely intolerable.
l.
arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
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Alexander Ross -
Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli -
Eric Duhamel -
FaTony -
Jonathan Frederickson -
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton -
Stefan Monnier -
Tzafrir Cohen