Let me start by saying I realise that Luke (& undoubtedly others) have already put a *lot* of sweat into EOMA-68, and will likely be working some very long hours in the months ahead.
I also realise that even with the tremendous success of the first CrowdSupply round, the volume of production is minuscule compared to Apple, Acer, Dell, etc, and hence also the risk of exploiting contracted workers will be lower - even if only because fewer workers will be assembling EOMA68 hardware.
Nevertheless, low resource use; reusability; repairability; RYF compliance... these are necessary properties of an ethical computer, but not quite sufficient ones. Avoiding slavery, indentured labour, etc, and ensuring electronics supply chain workers are able to live decent lives, is surely an equally important part of building ethical computers.
With that in mind, are there any plans for Rhombus Tech or other EOMA-68 producers/partners to work with organisations such as these?
http://electronicswatch.org/en/
http://www.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/lang--en/index.htm
I suppose that the ideal thing would be for some sort of ethical sourcing requirement to be written into the EOMA-68 standard ;)
- spk
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 1:45 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper sampablokuper@posteo.net wrote:
Let me start by saying I realise that Luke (& undoubtedly others) have already put a *lot* of sweat into EOMA-68, and will likely be working some very long hours in the months ahead.
I also realise that even with the tremendous success of the first CrowdSupply round, the volume of production is minuscule compared to Apple, Acer, Dell, etc, and hence also the risk of exploiting contracted workers will be lower - even if only because fewer workers will be assembling EOMA68 hardware.
Nevertheless, low resource use; reusability; repairability; RYF compliance... these are necessary properties of an ethical computer, but not quite sufficient ones. Avoiding slavery, indentured labour, etc, and ensuring electronics supply chain workers are able to live decent lives, is surely an equally important part of building ethical computers.
true.
With that in mind, are there any plans for Rhombus Tech or other EOMA-68 producers/partners to work with organisations such as these?
hmmm... don't know... but i can tell you that for this first production run, i'll be right there. i'll be *in* the factories, taking photos and i even want to have a go at operating the machinery (if they'll let me) for the PCB runs, layout, X-Ray machine and so on, so i can document it and let you know how it all works. the 3D printing factories (they're networked), i'll have to go round there and ask them if their PLA is as high-quality as Faberdashery's, if not, we'll have to import it (!) - so it's all hands-on.
basically, if *i* can't stand it, then i ain't putting up with it and will find somewhere else :)
but this is just for the first production run. by the time we get to mass-volume it'll be a different story.
l.
On 27/08/16 05:21, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 1:45 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper sampablokuper@posteo.net wrote:
[..] Avoiding slavery, indentured labour, etc, and ensuring electronics supply chain workers are able to live decent lives, is surely an equally important part of building ethical computers.
true.
With that in mind, are there any plans for Rhombus Tech or other EOMA-68 producers/partners to work with organisations such as these?
hmmm... don't know... but i can tell you that for this first production run, i'll be right there. i'll be *in* the factories, taking photos and i even want to have a go at operating the machinery (if they'll let me) for the PCB runs, layout, X-Ray machine and so on, so i can document it and let you know how it all works. the 3D printing factories (they're networked), i'll have to go round there and ask them if their PLA is as high-quality as Faberdashery's, if not, we'll have to import it (!) - so it's all hands-on.
basically, if *i* can't stand it, then i ain't putting up with it and will find somewhere else :)
It is great that the production will be this hands-on, and will give you a sense of the factory conditions.
Even so, at any given factory, it is entirely possible that you will be treated much better than the average worker. You will be able to leave when you are finished for the day, for example: they might not have that freedom and might not be free to tell you this.
but this is just for the first production run. by the time we get to mass-volume it'll be a different story.
That is fair enough: it is early days. But I guess an advantage of contacting one of the organisations I linked at this early stage is that they might be able to give you a whitelist or blacklist of known-good or known-bad factories or suppliers. Or at least tell you whether any factories on your short-list are definite no-nos. That might save you some time in the short term.
Also, once you get to mass volume, switching factories (e.g. if you found out you had accidentally picked one that got the technical stuff right and seemed OK when you visited it, but turned out to be using indentured child labour in the school holidays, or poisoning its workers due to lax chemical controls in some part of the factory you weren't shown) would be much more costly. So a little due diligence on this front now might avoid cost burdens and reputational damage in the long term.
Thanks for agreeing that labour rights are important, anyhow :)
Good luck with the coming months!
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 6:08 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper sampablokuper@posteo.net wrote:
It is great that the production will be this hands-on, and will give you a sense of the factory conditions.
i've been talking to mike for 2 years now. you get an intuitive feel when talking to people that they're okay. little things that come up in conversations. i'll be able to see how people react to him (and to me). i don't miss much... it can take a while for me to work things out but i get there. if there's anything "off" i'll know about it.
l.
El Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 08:15:04AM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton deia:
i've been talking to mike for 2 years now. you get an intuitive feel when talking to people that they're okay. little things that come up in conversations. i'll be able to see how people react to him (and to me). i don't miss much... it can take a while for me to work things out but i get there. if there's anything "off" i'll know about it.
l.
Luke, I know you have a lot of work in front of you and it will be hard enough to pull out without additional constraints. So rest a little, take a breath and don't over strain yourself. But what Sam Pablo says is important.
You've taken some heat from people who disliked Allwinner having taken the work of people and disregarded their copyrights. In my particular worldview taking heat from companies solving worker stress by installing safety nets under worker dormitory windows (so that they can't effectively commit suicide) would feel much worse. And I'm not accusing anyone of anything (probably those "higly efficient" companies wouldn't take small orders, anyway). And I also don't know the world enough to infer that since there are companies like these, all have to be so, or even most. So it is just an extreme example, not an attempt at guessing reality in general or in what may eventually affect EOMA-68.
Just like you sometimes tell that talking to FSF or Think Penguin got you to understand issues better, even issues you already understood for long but from maybe a different angle, I think talking to Electronics Watch or some other people may help you understand not only the labour reality but the work of people working to change that reality and the potential markets you might reach and the constraints that it would require. I read that you would have loved to know Open Source Ecology before you did. Well, don't wait till the next crowdfunding effort to know more worthwhile groups.
Fullfilling some 2500 orders may possibly be done by a huge one-person effort. But your longterm plans require more infrastructure and method. Longterm you can't just go "I'll intuitively sort it out". Just as you wrote a long and detailed white paper on ecoconcious computing you'll eventually need to either write or adopt some policy on other issues (labour, conflict minerals, circular economy, programmed obsolescence if anything further than the white paper is needed, distributed/local manufacturing, tax engineering). And even if it's hard to believe that you can achieve all that right now, taking a little time to read through and reach out to those collectives might prove useful, even if you don't finally join any of their campaigns or follow any of their directives (you at least will be more able to tell why). And in as much as you find coincidences you might find complicities, and both new markets and help.
Your RYF cards got more than double the requests than your next popular non-RYF card. So you see when you get external endorsement that helps sales. There are more ethical aspects than what you have in plan to certify, so it'd be nice to at some point know whether or not a future campaign or product endorses any.
For instance a previous message in this list talked about selling to governmental institutions. Well that's what Electronics Watch is all about. The moment you are ready to sell to institutions, going to them with an Electronics Watch, RYF and conflict free minerals credentials, for instance, may open a few doors, because the political impact of turning that offer down will be highly appreciated by any opposition party aiming to cease being the opposition party. In fact institutions affiliated to Electronics Watch should only buy from certified suppliers, so if you ever get there, you may have cleared a lot of competition for some customers. And you can use labour conditions sensibility to further free software goals (that have to do with intellectual labour conditions too, but maybe are more about consumer rights).
If you have some referents to point to, people may agree with them and buy. They probably won't care for some of the criteria (as long as they're not contrary to them) and will care a lot for a few. So some people may come to you for free software, some for environmental impact, some for fair trade, etc. But if you go just "trust me, I'm a good guy, I'll do it properly" then you are requiring people to agree in basically all of your views, which is very hard to achieve for anyone. If you broaden the field to all subjects, then mostly anyone disagrees with anyone.
I know because a couple of your posts in this list did demotivate me from helping the campaign, since I've sometimes have a hard time telling whether some views where group views and decisions of the campaign or just personal views that were not necessary influential enough that backers had to share them.
So when I hear that you'll go peek in a factory and convince yourself that all is right I sincerly don't know at all if that will mean anything for me. It might or it might not. I don't know you enough and I am not so terribly interested to know you enough to tell that. I'd prefer a list of minimum conditions and a procedure for verifying them, preferently involving local people who know the place, the culture, the language and the society where the work is done. Good news is the laptop assembly for instance will be mostly done under conditions well know by the customers (their own, since most laptops were requested as disassembled kits).
And yes, I know these projects are too small yet to demand anything, and I know my only recourse is buying elsewhere from some company that will be the same or worse. So don't take it as an irrational rant demanding the moon. It's just an opinion to show some people would care for more things and would care in a similar way than for free-software issues, through trnasparency and endorsements from well-respected institutions with some years of building and applying criteria.
It doesn't mean you have to change anything, sleep badly or risk not being able to deliver what you promised because you suddenly need to raise to higher standards of purity in every conceivable subject. At this phase we know you'll do the best you can. It's ok. I'm just trying to suggest you might at your leisure, start taking a look at some websites, keeping track of some agendas and even maybe visting some events, so that you can start forming an opinion about broader issues. And maybe even letting them know about your project (anyone can do that, I guess) in ase they might be interested.
Sorry for abusing your patience, I should learn to summarise.
On 27/08/16 13:41, Xavi Drudis Ferran wrote:
El Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 08:15:04AM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
deia:
you get an intuitive feel [...] if there's anything "off" i'll know about it.
[...]
It doesn't mean you have to change anything, sleep badly or risk not being able to deliver what you promised because you suddenly need to raise to higher standards of purity in every conceivable subject. At this phase we know you'll do the best you can. It's ok. I'm just trying to suggest you might at your leisure, start taking a look at some websites, keeping track of some agendas and even maybe visting some events, so that you can start forming an opinion about broader issues. And maybe even letting them know about your project (anyone can do that, I guess) in ase they might be interested.
Thank you, Xavi, for putting this better than I could. I agree with everything you said in your email.
Luke, Xavi is right. Maybe I can summarise by saying: we're not asking you to commit to anything concrete right now - I already backed the crowd-funder - but it would at least be great to know that you won't rule out seeking expert independent advice on this front in the longer term, especially if production scale increases.
Please see anti-sweatshop groups as potentially valuable partners like ThinkPenguin and CrowdSupply and the FSF, who will want you to make a success of EOMA-68 implementations as an ethical way for people to meet their computing needs. And please don't fall prey to the overconfidence bias, Dunning-Kruger effect, or System 1 thinking about this. You are a smart fellow, but you are not an expert in Chinese labour relations, so - despite your intelligence - as a human being, you risk over-estimating your present abilities in that area.
And it is a fraught area: "According to the China Labor Support Network, more than a quarter of the labor force in China is at risk of occupational poisoning." (Source: http://www.wired.com/2015/04/inside-chinese-factories .) Factor in other risks besides poisoning, and the percentage of the labour force at risk is probably very high indeed.*
The world isn't perfect: there might not be a factory that is 100% ideal. But just as the EOMA68-A20 is more ethical than the Intel Skylake or the Raspberry Pi in ways that it takes detailed knowledge of the field in order to understand (e.g. knowing about the Intel Management Engine, for example); so there are likely to be factories whose managers really do make conscientious efforts to avoid bad practices, but which can only be reliably identified by people with detailed knowledge of the field.
Thanks again for your time. I also want EOMA-68 to be a success :)
- spk
* Another example:
"There are reports that children ages 13-15 are forced to produce electronics in China. Based on the most recently available data from media sources, government raids, and NGOs, hundreds of cases of forced child labor have been reported in factories in Guangdong province, but the children are often from Henan, Shanxi, or Sichuan provinces. In some cases, children are forced to work in electronics factories through arrangements between the factories and the schools that the children attend in order to cover alleged tuition debts. The forced labor programs are described as student apprenticeships; however, the children report that they were forced to remain on the job and not allowed to return home. Half of the students' wages are sent directly to the schools, and the children receive little compensation after deductions are made for food and accommodations. In other cases, children are abducted or deceived by recruiters, sent to Guangdong, and sold to employers. Some children are held captive, forced to work long hours for little pay." (Source: https://www.dol.gov/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-of-products/ .)
On Saturday 27. August 2016 14.41.32 Xavi Drudis Ferran wrote:
Just like you sometimes tell that talking to FSF or Think Penguin got you to understand issues better, even issues you already understood for long but from maybe a different angle, I think talking to Electronics Watch or some other people may help you understand not only the labour reality but the work of people working to change that reality and the potential markets you might reach and the constraints that it would require. I read that you would have loved to know Open Source Ecology before you did. Well, don't wait till the next crowdfunding effort to know more worthwhile groups.
I think that even some of the people who have *raised* issues have learned something new about those issues, too, perhaps realising that they didn't actually have the whole picture, either. Certainly, through constructive criticism everybody can become better informed.
I can't believe Luke didn't know much about Open Source Ecology, though. I'd have thought it would have been of particular interest to him. :-)
[...]
If you have some referents to point to, people may agree with them and buy. They probably won't care for some of the criteria (as long as they're not contrary to them) and will care a lot for a few. So some people may come to you for free software, some for environmental impact, some for fair trade, etc. But if you go just "trust me, I'm a good guy, I'll do it properly" then you are requiring people to agree in basically all of your views, which is very hard to achieve for anyone. If you broaden the field to all subjects, then mostly anyone disagrees with anyone.
Just these last two sentences are a better way of summarising something I've said to people for a while about famous people who have a good reputation in one field who then start giving their opinions in other fields. A lot of the time, such famous people leverage their support amongst people who just like everything that the famous person is already known for. It's a kind of "everything they touch must turn to gold" thing.
But many other observers will not agree, seeing it as a less-than-properly- informed incursion into something that they personally do know something about. For them, it can even tarnish that person's good reputation and even make them question what that person really achieved. (And there are cases where people really should be backtracking to the career of the individual concerned and properly evaluating it.)
Not that I'm calling Luke's judgement into question here at all. I think Xavi's summary is a more general and useful way of thinking about such things, and I was only describing a special case of the phenomenon that one sees all the time in the media.
When I criticised Fairphone for their Free Software commitment, I felt bad about doing so, but I did so because relatively little effort needed to be expended for the organisation to inform itself about the software situation and to either make a sustainable choice or to acknowledge that a better choice could have been made. Instead, the organisation was ambiguous about it (the chipset even changed for the first phone they did while it was being made) and they were apparently more interested in pursuing custom user interfaces over ensuring the transparency and long-term viability of the software for the device, thus undermining the sustainability goals of the initiative.
Asking around on mailing lists about Free Software is a lot less effort than finding ethical mining and production enterprises in Africa and Asia, and compared to Luke, Fairphone is a well-resourced organisation (although obviously nothing compared to the average smartphone manufacturer). So it might be unreasonable to add Fairphone-like criteria to Luke's responsibilities right now: it's just him doing all the work, I guess, and so he should take it easy like he seems to like telling me to take it easy. ;-)
But just as Fairphone could have had a productive conversation with Luke, maybe Luke could have a productive conversation with Fairphone. At least then, such other concerns will at least have been openly acknowledged. Maybe he already has spoken to them about their core area of expertise: if so, I apologise for the wall of text. ;-)
We shouldn't make the same mistake of not getting in touch with organisations who complement this initiative's initial objectives and whose knowledge can enhance the end result. It's easy to criticise someone for making a mistake, but we shouldn't then make the same mistake ourselves.
Paul
P.S. For the record, Fairphone have improved their sophistication around Free Software a great deal. They appear to at least try and document the build process and encourage people to target the device with other software distributions. There are still binary blobs, but I would like to think that they realise the problems with such things now, thus undermining the denial culture that one often sees in the communities around products and projects. If they could fix some bizarre licensing restrictions that seem to persist (maybe only regarding Fairphone 1), then that would also signal useful change, too.
Compared to producing the EOMA68 making Fair Hardware is a task for a giant; and the giants of the digital industrie are not interested in doing it. So one step after the next. I am sure, that Luke would be glad to move in the direction of FAIR production.
What Fairphone does shows, how great the task is, but maybe it can be a kind of model in the future. They are looking after the working conditions, maybe Luke can do this too in the future.
They are looking for conflict free minerals, maybe they can give hints for sources.
So maybe Luke can get support in what FAIR production means and can give support in what FREE hard- and software mean to FAIRPHONE.
Wolfgang
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Paul Boddie paul@boddie.org.uk wrote:
On Saturday 27. August 2016 14.41.32 Xavi Drudis Ferran wrote:
Just like you sometimes tell that talking to FSF or Think Penguin got you to understand issues better, even issues you already understood for long but from maybe a different angle, I think talking to Electronics Watch or some other people may help you understand not only the labour reality but the work of people working to change that reality and the potential markets you might reach and the constraints that it would require. I read that you would have loved to know Open Source Ecology before you did. Well, don't wait till the next crowdfunding effort to know more worthwhile groups.
I think that even some of the people who have *raised* issues have learned something new about those issues, too, perhaps realising that they didn't actually have the whole picture, either.
there's a story about that - how a chinese factory manager was extremely annoyed at the effects the well-meaning idiot journalists had - explaining that the factories had to be moved to northern china where prices are lower and journalists and gwailo foreigners don't get granted visas - because prices being raised by westerners demands for "fairer wages" pushed up the price of labour across the *entire* guangdong area... and now foxconn and others are going fully-automated thus putting people *out* of work.
she also explained to this idiotic western journalist that the standard of living has gone up by 100 to 1,000 times compared to 2-3 generations ago, where her grandparents for example lived in a corner of a field to tend crops, they slept in the shed with the animals to keep warm and they literally starved for 3 months during winter because there wasn't any food available.
by contrast having electricity, walls surrounding the roof that's over your head and access to clean water is...
yes i've read professor yunus's book, "Creating a World Without Poverty". i just re-read it 3 days ago.
But many other observers will not agree, seeing it as a less-than-properly- informed incursion into something that they personally do know something about.
how the Grameen Bank was set up and how totally ineffective the IMF's "Programmes" are.... you should read that book.
But just as Fairphone could have had a productive conversation with Luke, maybe Luke could have a productive conversation with Fairphone. At least then, such other concerns will at least have been openly acknowledged. Maybe he already has spoken to them about their core area of expertise:
i have.. they didn't listen... the results we've seen are the train-wrecks that are still ongoing.
l.
On Saturday 27. August 2016 18.32.07 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
there's a story about that - how a chinese factory manager was extremely annoyed at the effects the well-meaning idiot journalists had - explaining that the factories had to be moved to northern china where prices are lower and journalists and gwailo foreigners don't get granted visas - because prices being raised by westerners demands for "fairer wages" pushed up the price of labour across the *entire* guangdong area... and now foxconn and others are going fully-automated thus putting people *out* of work.
Certainly, it is often reported that wage demands are making China (as a whole) less competitive than other countries, and so the forces of globalisation are happy to move factories to those other countries, instead. It shouldn't be a surprise that, China being a big place, factories get moved around in China to take advantage of economic (and other) conditions.
Nor should it really be a surprise that automation is seen as a more economic alternative. That was supposed to be the dream in the West, where everyone could then live lives of leisure (or do other work instead) while the machines did all the work, but naturally, neither the factory owners nor the state want to pass on the benefits to the people they've put out of work. (The UK government's idiotic response to people affected by this kind of thing seems to have been "move to London" for several decades while actually encouraging the disappearance of manufacturing.)
she also explained to this idiotic western journalist that the standard of living has gone up by 100 to 1,000 times compared to 2-3 generations ago, where her grandparents for example lived in a corner of a field to tend crops, they slept in the shed with the animals to keep warm and they literally starved for 3 months during winter because there wasn't any food available.
by contrast having electricity, walls surrounding the roof that's over your head and access to clean water is...
Yes, there are different measures of development: this is also a topic that recurs a lot with regard to how China interacts with various African nations. Interestingly, in the context of how lifestyles and standards of living change, similar things happened during the Industrial Revolution in the West.
Some journalists may just be looking for a sensational story, perhaps with ulterior motives, but others - particularly genuine advocates of things like better working conditions - are not necessarily operating to shame China or to coerce the country in some way. They may merely be pointing to history and be attempting to show that some bad things happened in the past - and in their very own countries, too! - that could happen again, but could also be avoided.
If publicity causes an increase in wages and better working conditions, that is a good thing, but it needs to be accompanied by a commitment by the corporate customers of the affected factories to not dump them for cheaper and less scrupulous manufacturers. And consumers have to accept that better conditions cost more, and that they should not follow their outrage at worker exploitation by then only wanting the cheapest possible product.
Had Chinese journalists (or equivalent) visited British factories two-hundred years ago, I'm sure the factory managers would have been just as upset. The trick is to take advantage of other people's perspectives and knowledge, and thus to break the vicious cycle.
[...]
But just as Fairphone could have had a productive conversation with Luke, maybe Luke could have a productive conversation with Fairphone. At least then, such other concerns will at least have been openly acknowledged. Maybe he already has spoken to them about their core area of expertise:
i have.. they didn't listen... the results we've seen are the train-wrecks that are still ongoing.
With regard to manufacturing or materials sourcing? Their traditional core areas of expertise, I mean.
From a casual perspective their work seems well-intentioned, but not being familiar with either area (and I have particular respect for those working in very dangerous or difficult places to investigate such things), I can't say whether they make a real difference or not. Their attempts to commit to manufacturers and form relationships seem to make sense.
Paul
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Xavi Drudis Ferran xdrudis@tinet.cat wrote:
method. Longterm you can't just go "I'll intuitively sort it out".
i know... i need to focus on the next few months - it's a bit much to deal with right now. i do have a route in to a fully-automated assembly line. it's enormous. it's also totally different from the manual labour intensive factories used elsewhere.
can i ask you to set something up - wiki pages with areas of relevant research - i don't want to hear it filled with "oh dear conditions are horrible" stories, i want to hear a plan of how things are made *better*. i'll get to it in good time.... but right now i've simply got too much else to immediately focus on.
l.
El Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 05:22:37PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton deia:
i know... i need to focus on the next few months - it's a bit much to deal with right now. i do have a route in to a fully-automated assembly line. it's enormous. it's also totally different from the manual labour intensive factories used elsewhere.
Good, I guess.
can i ask you to set something up - wiki pages with areas of relevant research - i don't want to hear it filled with "oh dear conditions are horrible" stories, i want to hear a plan of how things are made *better*. i'll get to it in good time.... but right now i've simply got too much else to immediately focus on.
Problem is I'm no expert either, but will try to look around or ask for help. Which wiki and how to get an account, then ? (sorry if everybody knows, I haven't paid much attention).
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Xavi Drudis Ferran xdrudis@tinet.cat wrote:
Problem is I'm no expert either, but will try to look around or ask for help. Which wiki and how to get an account, then ?
rhombus-tech.net - there's a trick to creating pages, i don't know what it is.
l.
El Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 05:36:53PM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton deia:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Xavi Drudis Ferran xdrudis@tinet.cat wrote:
Problem is I'm no expert either, but will try to look around or ask for help. Which wiki and how to get an account, then ?
rhombus-tech.net - there's a trick to creating pages, i don't know what it is.
l.
Thanks. I think I'm starting to get around.
I created http://rhombus-tech.net/ethical_inputs/
I'll be filling that little by little as I research. Hopefully with some help.
I don't know the page name I should choose or if it is limited to labour conditions or may include conflict minerals, programmed obsolescence avoidance, etc.
There's nothing there yet.
In case it needs to be written(there may be better ways):
To create an account. -in the main page follow the Edit link -it asks for type of login, I choosed password -there's an option to register -filled in username, password, password again and email. -there's a prefilled login page -get out of editing the main page
To create a page. -go to http://rhombus-tech.net/test/ -follow edit link -syntax is markdown by default . Type [[name_of_new_page]] -save test page -follow the relative link you just created. -edit the new page -go back to test page -edit -delete the link so we don't pollute the test page.
On 27/08/16 17:22, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Xavi Drudis Ferran xdrudis@tinet.cat wrote:
method. Longterm you can't just go "I'll intuitively sort it out".
i know... i need to focus on the next few months - it's a bit much to deal with right now. [...]
can i ask you to set something up - wiki pages with areas of relevant research - i don't want to hear it filled with "oh dear conditions are horrible" stories, i want to hear a plan of how things are made *better*. i'll get to it in good time.... but right now i've simply got too much else to immediately focus on.
Thanks Luke, and thanks Xavi for setting up the wiki page, and thanks to everyone who chipped in here :)
arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
-
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton -
m016fec3 -
Paul Boddie -
Sam Pablo Kuper -
Xavi Drudis Ferran