From paul at boddie.org.uk  Sun Feb  3 17:59:01 2019
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2019 18:59:01 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 Computing Devices Update: New Factory
	Equipment, New Grant Proposal
Message-ID: <1787027.MIDfuNHX07@jeremy>

Hello,

Good to see another update:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/new-factory-equipment-new-grant-proposal

I hope Mike is bearing up in the face of his recent difficulties. With regard 
to your funding proposal [1], I see that you wish to revive the other computer 
cards, and this brought to mind a couple of things I saw recently.

One of them was the StereoPi crowdfunding campaign:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/virt2real/stereopi

The relevant aspect of this is the use of the Raspberry Pi Compute Module as 
the core of the solution. Previously, the Compute Module was rather 
"unobtainium", shall we say, but given that Adafruit and the like seem to 
actually have the latest models in stock, I guess that they are being made and 
sold to real people.

Although things like the StereoPi have developers as their audience, and so it 
doesn't really bother people that bare boards and edge connectors are the 
basis of modularity, it would be nice to be able to pitch EOMA68 (and related 
profile) products for these kinds of things. But these kinds of campaigns do 
help to demonstrate the case for EOMA68 and modular computing.

Another thing that I noticed was in perusing the Dingoonity forums, where 
there is a fairly active forum about Ingenic-based handheld devices:

https://boards.dingoonity.org/ingenic-jz4760-devices/

As the URL indicates, a lot of them seem to be based on the JZ4760, but there 
was a curious remark about the JZ4770 used in the GCW Zero:

"There's no GCW Zero clone. H350 is its presumed internal name. The factory 
illegally sold prototypes from the initial test runs. Apparently the factory 
is hogging the last JZ4770 SoCs in existence. So don't expect a third party to 
jump in and start manufacturing a compatible device."

https://boards.dingoonity.org/ingenic-jz4760-devices/gcw-zero-14324/msg184122/#msg184122

Of course, the JZ4770 is the Vivante-based product variant, alongside the 
JZ4780 (PowerVR-based) and JZ4775 (no GPU). The latter two are still featured 
on Ingenic's Web site and are presumably active products. Hopefully, there are 
no availability issues, although one may wonder whether the JZ4760 might be a 
fallback if there is a glut of those (as evidenced by the continual stream of 
handhelds) and a shortage of the others.

Again, EOMA68 would be a good way of enabling products for this market. People 
seem to end up chasing discontinued products and settling for random imports, 
often being disappointed with some aspect of them or other, plus the software 
is not exactly responsibly produced, either.

Paul

[1] http://rhombus-tech.net/nlnet_2018/


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sun Feb  3 22:36:53 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 22:36:53 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 Computing Devices Update: New Factory
 Equipment, New Grant Proposal
In-Reply-To: <1787027.MIDfuNHX07@jeremy>
References: <1787027.MIDfuNHX07@jeremy>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwsE-FBboyhdE-dZOoWNuyd6gsGzzCVD_n1cTFx+nHEBQ@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:59 PM Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Good to see another update:
>
> https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/new-factory-equipment-new-grant-proposal
>
> I hope Mike is bearing up in the face of his recent difficulties. With regard
> to your funding proposal [1], I see that you wish to revive the other computer
> cards,

 they were only paused because continuing to put R&D money into them
would mean that fulfilling the campaign promises would have been
jeapordised.

> Although things like the StereoPi have developers as their audience, and so it
> doesn't really bother people that bare boards and edge connectors are the
> basis of modularity, it would be nice to be able to pitch EOMA68 (and related
> profile) products for these kinds of things. But these kinds of campaigns do
> help to demonstrate the case for EOMA68 and modular computing.

 yes very much.

> Another thing that I noticed was in perusing the Dingoonity forums, where
> there is a fairly active forum about Ingenic-based handheld devices:
>
> https://boards.dingoonity.org/ingenic-jz4760-devices/

 which reminds me, to contact the guy who was doing the hand-held
games console.  the last time i spoke to him, i learned that,
unfortunately, the person who had designed the case wanted to keep it
proprietary.

> Again, EOMA68 would be a good way of enabling products for this market. People
> seem to end up chasing discontinued products and settling for random imports,
> often being disappointed with some aspect of them or other, plus the software
> is not exactly responsibly produced, either.

 yes, basically, EOMA68 is about reducing the barriers.

 thanks paul.

l.


From calmstorm at posteo.de  Tue Feb  5 03:55:44 2019
From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 22:55:44 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook]  Noticed you said RK3288 immune to spectre,
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwsE-FBboyhdE-dZOoWNuyd6gsGzzCVD_n1cTFx+nHEBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1787027.MIDfuNHX07@jeremy>
	<CAPweEDwsE-FBboyhdE-dZOoWNuyd6gsGzzCVD_n1cTFx+nHEBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <730d5fda-af10-91d3-63c4-342bc0c87d29@posteo.de>

You think the A20 has to be scrapped in favor of the RK3288?

Surprised that RK3288 is immune to spectre given that its based on the 
Arm cortex processor A17 which I thought was vulnerable to meltdown/spectre.

I even see this:

https://www.techarp.com/guides/complete-meltdown-spectre-cpu-list/4/

My apologies for not paying much attention till now, but I have been 
feeling less hope towards this for a bit.

I am hopeful though again that you will succeed.

Many thanks though for exploring other options even if they aren't in 
your immediate direction.

but yeah, still looking around for the time being, never know what to 
expect regarding RISC-V as well as EOMA68 the standard.





From lkcl at lkcl.net  Tue Feb  5 04:21:06 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 04:21:06 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Noticed you said RK3288 immune to spectre,
In-Reply-To: <730d5fda-af10-91d3-63c4-342bc0c87d29@posteo.de>
References: <1787027.MIDfuNHX07@jeremy>
	<CAPweEDwsE-FBboyhdE-dZOoWNuyd6gsGzzCVD_n1cTFx+nHEBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<730d5fda-af10-91d3-63c4-342bc0c87d29@posteo.de>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwYw71gkFsQJKEo2LdP8jL8Yjrs0orQCF4_h4srwRQ6uA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tuesday, February 5, 2019, zap <calmstorm at posteo.de> wrote:

> You think the A20 has to be scrapped in favor of the RK3288?
>
> Surprised that RK3288 is immune to spectre given that its based on the Arm
> cortex processor A17 which I thought was vulnerable to meltdown/spectre.
>
>
 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-A17

Arse. It's OoO.  I thought it was an in-order.

That crosses it off the list, then.

Thanks for helping to ensure a big screwup is avoided.



-- 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

From calmstorm at posteo.de  Tue Feb  5 04:52:06 2019
From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 23:52:06 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Noticed you said RK3288 immune to spectre,
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwYw71gkFsQJKEo2LdP8jL8Yjrs0orQCF4_h4srwRQ6uA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1787027.MIDfuNHX07@jeremy>
	<CAPweEDwsE-FBboyhdE-dZOoWNuyd6gsGzzCVD_n1cTFx+nHEBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<730d5fda-af10-91d3-63c4-342bc0c87d29@posteo.de>
	<CAPweEDwYw71gkFsQJKEo2LdP8jL8Yjrs0orQCF4_h4srwRQ6uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bbdf96e-8eac-2dfc-9918-9884042a68f9@posteo.de>



On 02/04/2019 11:21 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 5, 2019, zap <calmstorm at posteo.de> wrote:
>
>> You think the A20 has to be scrapped in favor of the RK3288?
>>
>> Surprised that RK3288 is immune to spectre given that its based on the Arm
>> cortex processor A17 which I thought was vulnerable to meltdown/spectre.
>>
>>
>  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-A17
>
> Arse. It's OoO.  I thought it was an in-order.
>
> That crosses it off the list, then.
>
> Thanks for helping to ensure a big screwup is avoided.
No problem, I was just trying to warn you.  Glad to see, I replied, I
thought for a moment you knew something I didn't. ;)
>
>
>



From jas at jasites.com  Tue Feb  5 11:55:01 2019
From: jas at jasites.com (Jeffrey Sites)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 06:55:01 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Modular U-Boot - FOSDEM presentation
Message-ID: <62b9f5f8-227b-ebd5-dba8-248f8bd28286@jasites.com>

I don't recall seeing a reference to this already, nor a resolution to 
the open question of how to enable U-Boot for different EOMA68 
configurations, so I figured it may be useful to someone to review the 
applicability of a talk given at the recent FOSDEM:

https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/porting_u_boot_to_a_modular_device/

I hope this is helpful to someone!

Happy Hacking


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Tue Feb  5 12:08:15 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 12:08:15 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Modular U-Boot - FOSDEM presentation
In-Reply-To: <62b9f5f8-227b-ebd5-dba8-248f8bd28286@jasites.com>
References: <62b9f5f8-227b-ebd5-dba8-248f8bd28286@jasites.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwJPHpnzvdD7hnd+rBW+Jtmqbfr5dKchmx_SSQi4qXRpg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tuesday, February 5, 2019, Jeffrey Sites <jas at jasites.com> wrote:

> I don't recall seeing a reference to this already, nor a resolution to the
> open question of how to enable U-Boot for different EOMA68 configurations,


Devicetree overlays, with a fixed dtb specification representing the pins
on EOMA68.  An I2C EEPROM contains the id which allows uboot to pick the
correct dtb overlay.

It was discussed years ago as dtb overlays were still in the conceptual
phase. Last time I checked nobody had thought about *disconnecting*
overlays. The assumption was, you plug in a braindead 96boards to a shield,
boot, and under no circumtances remove the shield.

They clearly forgot that even on a beagleboard or braindeaf 96board,
uswsusp can be installed.


>  so I figured it may be useful to someone to review the applicability of a
> talk given at the recent FOSDEM:
>
> https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/porting_u_boot_to_a_modular_device/
>
>
Appreciated.



> I hope this is helpful to someone!
>
> Happy Hacking
>
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk



-- 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

From doark at mail.com  Sat Feb  9 20:37:20 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 15:37:20 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microarchitecture by Osmosis
Message-ID: <20190209153720.3fb8198f@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

Is the CDC 6600 and it's successors an open source CPU? The way luke talks
about the CDC 6600, it is totally available for inspection, unless you're
looking for the more obscure parts where you just have to know someone.

If so, I'd be interested in finding out more. Experimenting with your own
CPU using plain old off-the-shelf parts is rather interesting. Yes, I
have heard of the youtube guy who made a CPU called Megaprocessor.

I often think that we lost a lot of genius due to the closed source
nature of modern processors. Not to mention the methods of creating these
CPU designs.

Concerning luke's need to drive 128 gates from 1. You could probably
operate more gates at once if you used a MOSFET instead of a normal
transistor for your driving gate (I have no idea if or how that would
work in silicon though).

Thanks!


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sat Feb  9 22:23:34 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 22:23:34 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microarchitecture by Osmosis
In-Reply-To: <20190209153720.3fb8198f@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20190209153720.3fb8198f@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDxmY4qkiBiMzYpqf5xN9mUJ9pMChk37oHjk64MYhwm-sg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 8:37 PM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:

> Is the CDC 6600 and it's successors an open source CPU? The way luke talks
> about the CDC 6600, it is totally available for inspection,

 yes it is.  look for the book, online, "Design of a Computer", by
James Thornton.

> I often think that we lost a lot of genius due to the closed source
> nature of modern processors.

 pretty much an entire generation, yes.

> Concerning luke's need to drive 128 gates from 1. You could probably
> operate more gates at once if you used a MOSFET instead of a normal
> transistor for your driving gate (I have no idea if or how that would
> work in silicon though).

 it means custom design, it means making the driver larger, and the
larger driver means a slower response.  whatever you do, it'll be
slower.

l.


From doark at mail.com  Tue Feb 12 01:48:27 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 20:48:27 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microarchitecture by Osmosis
Message-ID: <20190211204827.03e14b33@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

Dear luke,

I was thinking of your problem with needing to drive 128 gates from 1.

<disclaimer>
There comes a time in life where people, or rather I, must demonstrate to
the world just how stupid I really am.
And there comes a time in life where people like you rebuke my idea in
the foolish expectation that it will *never* be proposed again. :)

I am going to propose a solution that works on paper. I have NO experience
with logic programming, architecture, or chip design of any sort.
What I propose causes a major increase in complexity, while keeping the
amount of transistors roughly the same, and maintaining the speed and
power efficiency you desired.
<\disclaimer>

I have no idea how well my idea will scale, with respect to the amount of
driven gates. But I have throughly researched it as best as I can.
You can find a nice table, which I can only partially understand here:
https://courseware.ee.calpoly.edu/~dbraun/courses/ee307/F99/01_10/01_Francois_Reak_Zeiss_Yeung.html
It will explain how many gates you can drive from one with respect to the
maximum and minimum current that the gates accept and output. The
capacitance and resistance of the gates and wires may prove somewhat more
difficult to ascertain.

Attached are 2 images (No, ASCII art would not have worked here). One
shows a set of NAND gates with an ordinary layout. I chose NAND gates
because NAND is one of two universal gates. The second image shows a
modified version of the first. It uses a recursive layout of NAND gates
enabling a tree like effect.

These were both drawn while riding in a car so don't expect perfection.
Also, my scanner got both sides of the paper on one page (technically,
image), which was annoying. So I cleaned the images up a bit.

I'm excited about my idea, however pitiful it is. Tell me what you think!
Thanks luke,
David


From doark at mail.com  Thu Feb 14 03:28:24 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:28:24 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Another processor with RISC-V and it's not looking
	OSHW
Message-ID: <20190213222824.1c1cba6a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

http://linuxgizmos.com/linux-driven-96boards-sbc-features-ai-and-risc-v-companion-chips/
At first I was excited. Now that I find out it's not really OSHW I'm not
so excited.
What the future of RISC-V is I can only guess at. And my guesses are
involving vendor lock-in and the usurpation of OSHW...

Sincerely,
David


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Thu Feb 14 04:06:30 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 04:06:30 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Another processor with RISC-V and it's not
	looking OSHW
In-Reply-To: <20190213222824.1c1cba6a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20190213222824.1c1cba6a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDz7qmvDLvO6BeO9YO-PYJmDTjQfvV3EpgXsTQefzwC-Pw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 3:29 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:

> http://linuxgizmos.com/linux-driven-96boards-sbc-features-ai-and-risc-v-companion-chips/
> At first I was excited. Now that I find out it's not really OSHW I'm not
> so excited.
> What the future of RISC-V is I can only guess at. And my guesses are
> involving vendor lock-in and the usurpation of OSHW...

 now you know why i started libre-riscv.

l.


From calmstorm at posteo.de  Tue Feb 19 19:33:42 2019
From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:33:42 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Just a thought for the 2nd revision of your standard, 
Message-ID: <d9173264-7c2f-96d7-cde6-c32299673d90@posteo.de>

https://linux-sunxi.org/Linux_mainlining_effort


https://linux-sunxi.org/A64


sunxi cedrus now supports this processor. I would be estatic to see that
happen. A64 is a good processor because it is 64 bit, and 32 bit has
less people interested in it more and more as time passes...

What do you think Luke? Especially given the whole bootlin/cedrus support.

Seems the Video Engine is available now. Let me know what you think of
this as a possible Rev2 of eoma68 the standard.


ps, I am mainly interested in this because of the possibility of
wine-staging on it. But yeah, even better it has no issues of
meltdown/spectre. :)

https://olimex.wordpress.com/tag/allwinner/

https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=5544





From lkcl at lkcl.net  Tue Feb 19 19:57:49 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 19:57:49 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Just a thought for the 2nd revision of your
	standard, 
In-Reply-To: <d9173264-7c2f-96d7-cde6-c32299673d90@posteo.de>
References: <d9173264-7c2f-96d7-cde6-c32299673d90@posteo.de>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDyYPXbBv31s2VR2bNQwDKPT2w2S6mWBADGMFZqv_aoXKg@mail.gmail.com>

hi zap, minor correction: the EOMA68 *standard* will *not* require (or
undergo) revision in order to support any given processor.

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 7:34 PM zap <calmstorm at posteo.de> wrote:

> https://linux-sunxi.org/A64
>
>
> sunxi cedrus now supports this processor.

 ah that's good.

> I would be estatic to see that
> happen. A64 is a good processor because it is 64 bit, and 32 bit has
> less people interested in it more and more as time passes...
>
> What do you think Luke? Especially given the whole bootlin/cedrus support.

 if there's a better option that goes over 2GB RAM, i'd like to use it instead.


> Seems the Video Engine is available now. Let me know what you think of
> this as a possible Rev2 of eoma68 the standard.

 again, to make absolutely clear: EOMA68 does not and *will* not
undergo *any* revision to support any specific given processor.

 you *may* be referring to the funding and production of a card that
is *COMPLIANT* with the EOMA68 specification, that happens to be
manufactured in a sequence that may be numbered "2nd", where the
EOMA68-A20 could conceivably be numbered "1st".

> ps, I am mainly interested in this because of the possibility of
> wine-staging on it. But yeah, even better it has no issues of
> meltdown/spectre. :)

 yeah appreciated.

 i happened to encounter the RK3308 (i think it was that one) which is
also a Cortex A53, and the RK3326 which can address up to 4GB:
 https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/07/23/rockchip-rk3308-rk3326-datasheet/

the only down-side of the RK3326: only one USB port, it will require
an on-board USB Hub IC to support 2x USB2 for full EOMA68 compliance.

l.


From calmstorm at posteo.de  Tue Feb 19 21:25:11 2019
From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 16:25:11 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Just a thought for the 2nd revision of your
 standard, 
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDyYPXbBv31s2VR2bNQwDKPT2w2S6mWBADGMFZqv_aoXKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d9173264-7c2f-96d7-cde6-c32299673d90@posteo.de>
	<CAPweEDyYPXbBv31s2VR2bNQwDKPT2w2S6mWBADGMFZqv_aoXKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e1d19f2c-10a0-2ec3-718e-0011bb8923b3@posteo.de>

Actually, just a small edit, you are right, regardless, because both
have 1 usb slot. You are probably better off regardless using the RK3308
or the RK3326

Whichever is better, I am totally in for the idea. I hope you will
finally deliver to your, backers. I want to see this succeed. :)


On 02/19/2019 02:57 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> hi zap, minor correction: the EOMA68 *standard* will *not* require (or
> undergo) revision in order to support any given processor.
>
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 7:34 PM zap <calmstorm at posteo.de> wrote:
>
>> https://linux-sunxi.org/A64
>>
>>
>> sunxi cedrus now supports this processor.
>  ah that's good.
>
>> I would be estatic to see that
>> happen. A64 is a good processor because it is 64 bit, and 32 bit has
>> less people interested in it more and more as time passes...
>>
>> What do you think Luke? Especially given the whole bootlin/cedrus support.
>  if there's a better option that goes over 2GB RAM, i'd like to use it instead.
>
>
>> Seems the Video Engine is available now. Let me know what you think of
>> this as a possible Rev2 of eoma68 the standard.
>  again, to make absolutely clear: EOMA68 does not and *will* not
> undergo *any* revision to support any specific given processor.
>
>  you *may* be referring to the funding and production of a card that
> is *COMPLIANT* with the EOMA68 specification, that happens to be
> manufactured in a sequence that may be numbered "2nd", where the
> EOMA68-A20 could conceivably be numbered "1st".
>
>> ps, I am mainly interested in this because of the possibility of
>> wine-staging on it. But yeah, even better it has no issues of
>> meltdown/spectre. :)
>  yeah appreciated.
>
>  i happened to encounter the RK3308 (i think it was that one) which is
> also a Cortex A53, and the RK3326 which can address up to 4GB:
>  https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/07/23/rockchip-rk3308-rk3326-datasheet/
>
> the only down-side of the RK3326: only one USB port, it will require
> an on-board USB Hub IC to support 2x USB2 for full EOMA68 compliance.
>
> l.
>
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk



From eaterjolly at gmail.com  Wed Feb 20 01:10:48 2019
From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 20:10:48 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Another processor with RISC-V and it's not
	looking OSHW
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDz7qmvDLvO6BeO9YO-PYJmDTjQfvV3EpgXsTQefzwC-Pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190213222824.1c1cba6a@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDz7qmvDLvO6BeO9YO-PYJmDTjQfvV3EpgXsTQefzwC-Pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9ifjskFhrXxXpiv+vbAdC_Eu4PQkYos=JBLMA=orym8S9PMg@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/13/19, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
>  now you know why i started libre-riscv.
>
> l.

Beautiful : )


-- 
CC0


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Wed Feb 20 12:02:34 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 12:02:34 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] NLnet PET Grant 1st round selection approved,
	2nd round to begin soon
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwFzWQFxyLr=2U1HkHeh_8XgU_sivwzuy5wSkoCLCsXZg@mail.gmail.com>

i've received word that we've passed the 1st round selection criteria
for a EUR $50,000 Grant from the NLnet foundation.  they have EUR
$5.6m available however they must have well over a hundred other
applications and they need to go through a strict 2nd round of
questions.

https://nlnet.nl/PET/guideforapplicants/
https://nlnet.nl/PET/

i'll keep people informed: given that the project is entirely based
around providing the hardware that respects peoples' privacy, and that
it's pretty unique and has no competition, we stand a high probability
of success.

l.


From doark at mail.com  Wed Feb 20 19:54:23 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 14:54:23 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Heads up, RISC-V doing a world tour
Message-ID: <20190220145423.51a73a75@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Or at least it looks like that:
https://sifivetechsymposium.com/

Might be interesting to attend (I can't).
Especially to ask what to do about the companies that are already
breaking the license of RISC-V.

Note, however, that in the schedule for one of the events:
https://sifivetechsymposium.com/agenda-boston/?_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_2AgWSrIUTQhNOrOyIQkGO2kC_ATKZ-Qm6mYdeZApvnqhoxt6GV6crJWeUwASmjoj0ho83sAq4rCkYLMvRFPcmUzV4KA

Says that it is only 1 day!
And it's apparently sponsored by someone, both because it's free and
because I see 2 "Ecosystem Partner Presentation"s.
I'm more interested in what on earth they expect to do in 1 day then the
event itself...

Sincerely,
David
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEL2N7+xWmVOJDQxWGm3XCrhg2YP8FAlxtsG8ACgkQm3XCrhg2
YP9shw//aBpeZHiuTA/pG6JxjshZn8H3O2XJuaAwMm8sD9ZvGKAEklMka1zoYUNm
HlS8c+1omeReiC9NBJT1mq116iv9TP9olFtkxRq351OcN4qC4NmDgKskZTNXFyNz
qNgPlgT3aZV3AQCR6kkhBDzfbdhtC/+pyzGI/ukUH2cBCLZxXL/6du9BS5+GHosb
ZJvS9B3VUktsOHKW2o+J4vx0fZGuAD5k2PcGLkTRS0MoPoKYUU2yYk/DVP8sda29
NJmwVXTSfZ6oOMaYJ0Og6OxOlA0I7+MlCx/3r8kKSikAiv7DjA85BVa0/H/3IBJi
/gnrnVB2D2P9V2cDh5k+UsE7PRMJ7B4j2G5vLNXqOyzttCx+A43arJCPmnkrWhzk
YGi0gt2rKom83H7dyDsH2UVhbmaKH+ATcG9bWo+ta76ITiV1lJ4Z54uFeFic/Ree
21pD1PNIzWOM0bjM6BH1hPnEeyx7TlY14rL1ira2NUfBo5d2XxXGAPjEK/Xz8Sn3
8Q1L9KASZNWVDrhl6/2xEBE+5pPS3HxTH7t9YFyo40dkouFr5TpNwoB2di8Ih3xj
yJnFC83VPg6JKQ37EQN4MTjvPvRGkrT63DFSuaxShF5kVtt2UYTVVe12AuWlo9e6
sZYfwMK+c4ZV+8hs6atvdkdyk/BI9ZntROuex/gecjnr8wvuQe0=
=zSdp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From sucotronic at gmail.com  Wed Feb 20 19:58:19 2019
From: sucotronic at gmail.com (Felix)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 20:58:19 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] NLnet PET Grant 1st round selection approved,
 2nd round to begin soon
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwFzWQFxyLr=2U1HkHeh_8XgU_sivwzuy5wSkoCLCsXZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwFzWQFxyLr=2U1HkHeh_8XgU_sivwzuy5wSkoCLCsXZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABnoYk10QO1BREtk3vRwnJw14P=_Nrruth_yBfwGZ-_eQGeFyQ@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, what great news!! Hope you'll get the grand she help you with your
incredible work 😀

El mié., 20 feb. 2019 13:03, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>
escribió:

> i've received word that we've passed the 1st round selection criteria
> for a EUR $50,000 Grant from the NLnet foundation.  they have EUR
> $5.6m available however they must have well over a hundred other
> applications and they need to go through a strict 2nd round of
> questions.
>
> https://nlnet.nl/PET/guideforapplicants/
> https://nlnet.nl/PET/
>
> i'll keep people informed: given that the project is entirely based
> around providing the hardware that respects peoples' privacy, and that
> it's pretty unique and has no competition, we stand a high probability
> of success.
>
> l.
>
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk

From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com  Wed Feb 20 20:49:21 2019
From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 15:49:21 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] NLnet PET Grant 1st round selection approved,
 2nd round to begin soon
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwFzWQFxyLr=2U1HkHeh_8XgU_sivwzuy5wSkoCLCsXZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwFzWQFxyLr=2U1HkHeh_8XgU_sivwzuy5wSkoCLCsXZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190220204921.ot6x2bgudcx2r4p6@topoi.pooq.com>

Consider me not part of this project too.  
I'm on the mailing list, that's all.

-- hendrik

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 12:02:34PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> i've received word that we've passed the 1st round selection criteria
> for a EUR $50,000 Grant from the NLnet foundation.  they have EUR
> $5.6m available however they must have well over a hundred other
> applications and they need to go through a strict 2nd round of
> questions.
> 
> https://nlnet.nl/PET/guideforapplicants/
> https://nlnet.nl/PET/
> 
> i'll keep people informed: given that the project is entirely based
> around providing the hardware that respects peoples' privacy, and that
> it's pretty unique and has no competition, we stand a high probability
> of success.
> 
> l.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk


From mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com  Wed Feb 20 22:40:36 2019
From: mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com (Mike Henry)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 15:40:36 -0700
Subject: [Arm-netbook] NLnet PET Grant 1st round selection approved,
 2nd round to begin soon
In-Reply-To: <20190220204921.ot6x2bgudcx2r4p6@topoi.pooq.com>
References: <CAPweEDwFzWQFxyLr=2U1HkHeh_8XgU_sivwzuy5wSkoCLCsXZg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190220204921.ot6x2bgudcx2r4p6@topoi.pooq.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOedJL2+n-rYrL+h0WciNMkPfPcjpAtkPSv7Ewwijd_28wRdg@mail.gmail.com>

> On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 12:02:34PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> > i've received word that we've passed the 1st round selection criteria
> > for a EUR $50,000 Grant from the NLnet foundation.  they have EUR
> > $5.6m available however they must have well over a hundred other
> > applications and they need to go through a strict 2nd round of
> > questions.
> >
> > https://nlnet.nl/PET/guideforapplicants/
> > https://nlnet.nl/PET/
> >
> > i'll keep people informed: given that the project is entirely based
> > around providing the hardware that respects peoples' privacy, and that
> > it's pretty unique and has no competition, we stand a high probability
> > of success.

Congratulations! Please feel free to reach out if you need any help
with the application process :)


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Wed Feb 20 23:59:36 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 23:59:36 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Heads up, RISC-V doing a world tour
In-Reply-To: <20190220145423.51a73a75@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20190220145423.51a73a75@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDzV7nS8o7L=Cg_mCWx-R_rrEAWk4UKBoSPvbp1aLr=mLw@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 7:54 PM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> Or at least it looks like that:
> https://sifivetechsymposium.com/
>
> Might be interesting to attend (I can't).
> Especially to ask what to do about the companies that are already
> breaking the license of RISC-V.

 that's easy to answer: whilst companies *should* obtain an "official"
JEDEC designation which should go into the mvendor id field of the
hardware, as long as they do not claim it is "RISC-V" they are ok
(Trademark Law).

 in addition, if they make *modifications* to the instruction set,
that's ok too, as long as, again, they do not claim it is "RISC-V".

 this is absolutely fine for say a proprietary secret company
developing a proprietary secret product where the firmware will never,
under any circumstances, see the light of day.  examples include
Trinamic's excellent new Stepper Motor Controller ICs, where the
firmware is likely to be actually in ROM, on-chip.

 where the RISC-V Foundation's half-cocked approach becomes seriously
problematic is as follows:

 * when a Commercial Project needs to release PUBLIC modifications
(custom extensions) which *HAVE* to make their way into general
wide-spread use

 * when a Libre Commercial Project needs to DEVELOP public
modifications (custom extensions) because the RISC-V Foundation forces
all and any development of modifications to go through an official
"ratification process".

there *is* no room for Libre *COMMERCIAL* products to interact with
RISC-V Foundation members because all RISC-V Foundation members are
forced to sign an agreement (for cross-licensing and patent protection
purposes).

this is clearly violating FRAND terms of Trademark Law, by being
"Discriminatory" against Libre Commercial products.

it is quite clear that the RISC-V Founders never envisaged a scenario
where Libre *COMMERCIAL* products would ever be successful.

l.


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Thu Feb 21 00:04:23 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 00:04:23 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] NLnet PET Grant 1st round selection approved,
 2nd round to begin soon
In-Reply-To: <20190220204921.ot6x2bgudcx2r4p6@topoi.pooq.com>
References: <CAPweEDwFzWQFxyLr=2U1HkHeh_8XgU_sivwzuy5wSkoCLCsXZg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190220204921.ot6x2bgudcx2r4p6@topoi.pooq.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwBS+xM73OKkOVN8z50kpFQ0n87w2w60L8Q9x8wGhH+3w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 8:49 PM Hendrik Boom <hendrik at topoi.pooq.com> wrote:
>
> Consider me not part of this project too.

 different rules for this project, hendrik.  (the 1st round was
approved for the libre-riscv soc project as well)

l.


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Thu Feb 21 00:04:57 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 00:04:57 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] NLnet PET Grant 1st round selection approved,
 2nd round to begin soon
In-Reply-To: <CAOOedJL2+n-rYrL+h0WciNMkPfPcjpAtkPSv7Ewwijd_28wRdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwFzWQFxyLr=2U1HkHeh_8XgU_sivwzuy5wSkoCLCsXZg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190220204921.ot6x2bgudcx2r4p6@topoi.pooq.com>
	<CAOOedJL2+n-rYrL+h0WciNMkPfPcjpAtkPSv7Ewwijd_28wRdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDy_-Kh=WpfmNUqwvf2hzCWWtufERFx2rC+HpGPDcTuy1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:41 PM Mike Henry
<mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com> wrote:

> Congratulations! Please feel free to reach out if you need any help
> with the application process :)

 appreciated.  what i'll likely do is put the questions up on the wiki
as they come in.

l.


From doark at mail.com  Thu Feb 21 00:41:08 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 19:41:08 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] NLnet PET Grant 1st round selection approved,
 2nd round to begin soon
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDy_-Kh=WpfmNUqwvf2hzCWWtufERFx2rC+HpGPDcTuy1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwFzWQFxyLr=2U1HkHeh_8XgU_sivwzuy5wSkoCLCsXZg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190220204921.ot6x2bgudcx2r4p6@topoi.pooq.com>
	<CAOOedJL2+n-rYrL+h0WciNMkPfPcjpAtkPSv7Ewwijd_28wRdg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDy_-Kh=WpfmNUqwvf2hzCWWtufERFx2rC+HpGPDcTuy1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190220194108.5445f807@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 00:04:57 +0000
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:41 PM Mike Henry
> <mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Congratulations! Please feel free to reach out if you need any help
> > with the application process :)
>
> Appreciated. What I'll likely do is put the questions up on the wiki
> as they come in.

I'll wait to pat you on the back until the money is in the projects bank
account. But then you'll probably be too busy to notice. :)

David


From doark at mail.com  Thu Feb 21 00:49:13 2019
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 19:49:13 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Heads up, RISC-V doing a world tour
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzV7nS8o7L=Cg_mCWx-R_rrEAWk4UKBoSPvbp1aLr=mLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190220145423.51a73a75@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDzV7nS8o7L=Cg_mCWx-R_rrEAWk4UKBoSPvbp1aLr=mLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190220194913.2e2a06f9@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 23:59:36 +0000
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:

> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 7:54 PM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA256
> >
> > Or at least it looks like that:
> > https://sifivetechsymposium.com/
> >
> > Might be interesting to attend (I can't).
> > Especially to ask what to do about the companies that are already
> > breaking the license of RISC-V.
>
>  that's easy to answer: whilst companies *should* obtain an "official"
> JEDEC designation which should go into the mvendor id field of the
> hardware, as long as they do not claim it is "RISC-V" they are ok
> (Trademark Law).
>
>  in addition, if they make *modifications* to the instruction set,
> that's ok too, as long as, again, they do not claim it is "RISC-V".
>

But, but, it is RISC-V HW... If I don't call the Linux kernel a "Linux
kernel" does that mean I don't have to offer the sources plus my
proprietary extensions to anyone who buys it?


>  this is absolutely fine for say a proprietary secret company
> developing a proprietary secret product where the firmware will never,
> under any circumstances, see the light of day.  examples include
> Trinamic's excellent new Stepper Motor Controller ICs, where the
> firmware is likely to be actually in ROM, on-chip.

That's understandable.

>  where the RISC-V Foundation's half-cocked approach becomes seriously
> problematic is as follows:
>
>  * when a Commercial Project needs to release PUBLIC modifications
> (custom extensions) which *HAVE* to make their way into general
> wide-spread use
>
>  * when a Libre Commercial Project needs to DEVELOP public
> modifications (custom extensions) because the RISC-V Foundation forces
> all and any development of modifications to go through an official
> "ratification process".

Yuck.

> there *is* no room for Libre *COMMERCIAL* products to interact with
> RISC-V Foundation members because all RISC-V Foundation members are
> forced to sign an agreement (for cross-licensing and patent protection
> purposes).
>
> this is clearly violating FRAND terms of Trademark Law, by being
> "Discriminatory" against Libre Commercial products.
>
> it is quite clear that the RISC-V Founders never envisaged a scenario
> where Libre *COMMERCIAL* products would ever be successful.

What? Why no interaction? Does that mean you're currently developing the
GPU in the RSIC-V core without any contact with the RISC-V Foundation?
That's double talk, "We'll open source the core but no one can talk to the
OSS community about it."

I sincerely hope I'm misreading this,
David


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Thu Feb 21 01:33:52 2019
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 01:33:52 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Heads up, RISC-V doing a world tour
In-Reply-To: <20190220194913.2e2a06f9@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20190220145423.51a73a75@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDzV7nS8o7L=Cg_mCWx-R_rrEAWk4UKBoSPvbp1aLr=mLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190220194913.2e2a06f9@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwFiVu_0PCQ9bi_W20G9j4uyq6OdSV71yTJhK=Gx85U8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 12:49 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 23:59:36 +0000
> Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
>
> > ---
> > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 7:54 PM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA256
> > >
> > > Or at least it looks like that:
> > > https://sifivetechsymposium.com/
> > >
> > > Might be interesting to attend (I can't).
> > > Especially to ask what to do about the companies that are already
> > > breaking the license of RISC-V.
> >
> >  that's easy to answer: whilst companies *should* obtain an "official"
> > JEDEC designation which should go into the mvendor id field of the
> > hardware, as long as they do not claim it is "RISC-V" they are ok
> > (Trademark Law).
> >
> >  in addition, if they make *modifications* to the instruction set,
> > that's ok too, as long as, again, they do not claim it is "RISC-V".
> >
>
> But, but, it is RISC-V HW... If I don't call the Linux kernel a "Linux
> kernel" does that mean I don't have to offer the sources plus my
> proprietary extensions to anyone who buys it?

 the majority of libre hardware is BSD / MIT licensed because the GPL
is completely inappropriate when it comes to hardware.

 Trademark Law is a branch of Copyright Law.  the RISC-V Foundation
has been issued with an exclusive license to sub-license "RISC-V" by
the Copyright Holder (krste asanovic).

 nobody may claim "compliance" with RISC-V without the RISC-V
Foundation's expressed approval.

 *non*-compliance is perfectly fine... as long as "RISC-V" is not
mentioned in association with any such products.

 we're basically back to the exact same fuckwittery that brought us
etnaviv, "arcfour compatibility" and so on.


> > there *is* no room for Libre *COMMERCIAL* products to interact with
> > RISC-V Foundation members because all RISC-V Foundation members are
> > forced to sign an agreement (for cross-licensing and patent protection
> > purposes).
> >
> > this is clearly violating FRAND terms of Trademark Law, by being
> > "Discriminatory" against Libre Commercial products.
> >
> > it is quite clear that the RISC-V Founders never envisaged a scenario
> > where Libre *COMMERCIAL* products would ever be successful.
>
> What? Why no interaction?

 because whilst most libre hardware engineers have entirely given up
hope of being a welcome part of the RISC-V Community, i've been
persistently reminding them that ITU-style secretive closed-doors
development practices are effectively a cartel.

 this pissed them off, despite the fact that people have been talking
*privately* about the exact things which i made public, for many
years, long before i started.

> Does that mean you're currently developing the
> GPU in the RSIC-V core without any contact with the RISC-V Foundation?

 that's correct.  or, more to the point: the majority of
communications meet with stone cold silence.

 the reason why i continue to make announcements is to provide an
audit trail in case they try "Trademark violation" (Trademark Law
*requires* that the licensor engage in FRAND communication with its
licensees), to provide evidence of "prior art" such that patents on
the same material may be invalidated, and to invite those people who
haven't completely given up hope to get in touch.

> That's double talk, "We'll open source the core but no one can talk to the
> OSS community about it."

 oh they can talk all right... just as long as it's about "official"
(approved) RISC-V standards.  they just can't talk about any
innovations or anything that has not been ratified or released without
prior approval of the RISC-V Foundation.

 so, for example, development of standards which require constructive
feedback and input from the u-boot and linux kernel developers as well
as Debian developers and Fedora developers is completely useless,
because the Libre developers are hardly going to sign the RISC-V
Membership Agreement, are they??

 and without that agreement, the members are prevented and prohibited
from engaging fully with the Libre engineers, because they could be in
violation of their RISC-V Membership Agreement to do so, for
discussing material that has not yet been approved and ratified as a
"Standard" by the RISC-V Foundation.


> I sincerely hope I'm misreading this,

 you're not.

 it's basically the same game that google played with project ara.

 "we're open as long as you join our secret club, and once you're part
of our secret club you get to enjoy the privilege of forcing our joint
democratically-approved will onto the rest of the word and to call
that an 'Open Standard' ".

l.