From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 06:03:55 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 01:03:55 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Open-Source Streaming Service incentivizing Free Culture Message-ID: So there are some fairly serious talks where someone wants to do this with my help. https://riot.im/app/#/room/#Anime:matrix.org/$1535508591230126PGsxV:matrix.org Discussions start with this link, where we moved to matrix from youtube comments and I pretty heavy handedly explained why talking about this in a private chartroom won't likely get anywhere. Basically the idea is to implement Taler in an ethereum DAO and create an liberapay like that, then tie that to a website integrating whatever existing peer-to-peer networks seem practical (peer.tube and IPFS seem like candidate). People could pool funds, delegate votes, and the delegates could then leverage those funds to commission free culture anime from actual studios like Trigger (a studio already has a Patreon) and these studios are desensitized to foreign piracy. Of course doing so while giving these studios artistic license and emphasizing that altruism now will support the model, support even larger // even more obsessed fandoms (from copying, modifying, and redistributing the art), and put your foreign audience in a position to directly gouge them by threatening to sell the anime to a japanese cable company and never sell the license to a foreign actor. There are two conversations after that comment, the first is immediately after, and the second has about 140 irrelevant messages about anime in-between that and the first. (tongue fully planted in cheek, with the word irrelevant :)) tl;dr I told them why it would take about 10 years to do alone, and they still seemed to want to do it after having their heart broken. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 07:22:23 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 02:22:23 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Thoughts on Why Blender should Fork Message-ID: This post has trivially to do with arm-netbooks. I'll say, risc architectures would be optimal for an ideal virtual machine that minimizes hardware awareness in userland, which has to do with Urbit, and; has to do with what I perceive Blender could be. Blender to me, long seemed designed for discovery learning. I perceive that as, 'the [infamous] Blender way'. Why none could properly document nor tutorial'ize Blender. Always intended as a practical toy. Never to grow-out of... Until v2.8 . Violating potential for discovery learning, with a persistent toolbar where previously only the toolbox-selecting-multitool and the window-clone-or-close-multitool persisted, remaining the only tools needing persistence. Much like the Linux kernel aims for ideal hardware implementation, Blender should aim for ideal graphics processing for any given hardware. Named blender-modes shouldn't exist; only two blender-modes should exist: "Render" (for static media) and "Engine" (for dynamic media). Likewise, as the Linux kernel seeks to maximize its hardware targets, so too should Blender in to perpetuity. Even for hardware unpractical for rendering or compiling, Blender should integrate EVM render and EVM compile, or alternatively SaaSS (but only mainline SaaSS after EVM etcetera, On Principle). Blender shouldn't integrate a programming environment designed for aspiring programmers; Blender should integrate a "toy language" as a programming environment that aims to enable critical fun and intuition where even seemingly random language assortments generate interesting affects that encourage further exploration. Like every OS should have boot-to-browser as a function, so too every OS should have boot-to-blender as a function. All the while, both interfaces should encourage discovery learning. v2.8 removes "game engine" mode, as-if to say "yeah, we're narrowing our scope, so what?" while almost imagining "competing in the here-and-now is more fun than grasping at a future we won't get to witness ourselves". CC0 From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 03:02:54 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 22:02:54 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Thoughts on Why Blender should Fork In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correction, Blender ditching its game engine seems like misinformation I got. Seems to actually be following the path I recommended by renaming it interactive mode, since game logic can be useful for creating static animations too. That sounds exciting. Imagine playing a game and being able to setup/program cameras where ever to capture whatever, and if an otherwise unnoticeable area is poorly modelled or textured then you can remodel or retexture it yourself in the same floss environment you might if you wanted to animate in or resume playing from. My other criticisms about the persistent toolbar and the programming environment, I still standby. For any who might argue persistent save button, I would argue that blender should write its state to file, to make needing to save for any reason besides naming, obsolete. Even otherwise, coordinating discovery learning is more important. -- CC0 From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 03:23:30 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 22:23:30 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Thoughts on Why Blender should Fork In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There seems to be some ambiguity about whether Blender will develop any interactive logic which can't export to an MIT or otherwise permissively open sourced or closed source game engine, so additional game code doesn't need released under GPL. That's concerning to me, since of course games should release source code. -- CC0 From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 04:49:58 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 23:49:58 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Thoughts on Why Blender should Fork In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In that case, I renew my criticism about the engine's development direction, though albeit Blender seems somewhat embarrassed by the decision with how they seem to mock it up as not giving up when that's what it seems. Dynamic media designing kits fail on the general abstraction level, deciding when what information is useful. Godot succeeds considerably by making specialized game logic scripting languages. These languages are stereotyped as easy to make & easy to learn, so raising complexity past a certain degree, triggers many anxieties about distraction from the art of design for the one on the learning side of the coin. Perhaps Urbit lies in that realm separating a script's complexity from a program's complexity without incorporating any familiar elements from projects trying to gradually close that gap rather attempting to close that gap almost all at once. An artificial gap surely, that the only barrier preventing closure amounts to bias. -- CC0 From doark at mail.com Mon Sep 10 04:25:42 2018 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 23:25:42 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Oscilloscope or bust? Message-ID: <20180909232542.15fb0c5c@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> Hi, I need help here. I was designing the power supply of my laptop and I noticed that some power bucks and step up/down converters (Which both seem to do the same thing. Please tell me otherwise.), produced a more stable power supply than others. In order to find out if they are truly suitable for suppling power to sensitive electronics I've heard that I need an oscilloscope. I currently own: 1. #222634543946 "DC-DC 10/12/15/20A 150/250/300/400/1200W Step up Step down Buck Boost Converter" 2. #152710861245 "2A DC Boost Step-up Adjustable Converter Module 3v-24v to 3.3v 5v 6v 9v 12v 24v" After learning that some guy with an oscilloscope reviewed these, I'm planning to get: #122923215542 "6 Pack MP1584EN ultra Small DC-DC 3A power Step-Down Adjustable Module Buck M2H3 6 Pack MP1584EN ultra Small DC-DC 3A power Step-Down Adjustable Module Buck" I've seen many oscilloscopes online on crowd funding campaigns. I've never been certain of which to get, if any. The real professional ones are out of my budget range of about $100. *I'll pay more if I must*, but I already did not anticipate the need to actually evaluate what should be solid products. I probably should find a solid adjustable DC power supply to test these with vs. an old laptop power pack or some batteries. What I need some of these things to do is to take a dynamically variable voltage as input (Li-Ion batteries in series), and produce a constant voltage as output. Others I need to just convert to the correct voltage from the old laptop power pack. Thanks! David From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 05:03:21 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 00:03:21 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Oscilloscope or bust? In-Reply-To: <20180909232542.15fb0c5c@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> References: <20180909232542.15fb0c5c@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> Message-ID: Pardon a top post, plz, I'm on my phone again... Oscilloscopes are a great tool for either (a) analyzing analog waveforms, if you know what you're doing, or (b) looking like the absolute incarnation of technological tomfoolery, if you don't. Mostly I fall into the second category. My scope is a secondhand, pre-moonshot Tektronix 422. It weighs about as much as a good stout WW2 battleship and probably has just as much metal... it certainly has almost as many controls, and the dizzying array of knob and levers and buttons means I have virtually no idea how to work it. I do have the manual and a lot of bad excuses, though! ...anyways... These links may be of some use. The first couple are a little outdated, but all should be serviceable... https://hackaday.com/2016/01/27/a-tale-of-two-sub-100-oscilloscopes/ https://hackaday.com/2017/11/09/review-jye-tech-dso150-oscilloscope-kit/ https://hackaday.com/2017/11/18/ds212-oscilloscope-review-open-source-and-great-for-hacking/ ...and, if you're "Robinson Crusoe on a Desert Island" desperate (note, I wouldn't trust myself with this one!)... https://hackaday.com/2017/04/06/hacking-a-vintage-tv-into-an-oscilloscope/ There are also dead-simple recipes out there (Forrest Mims, /et al/) for o-scope builds using (literally) a few chips and a double-fistful of LEDs... but those badly lack the sort of display resolution you need for this. HTH... Chris On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 11:26 PM David Niklas wrote: > Hi, > I need help here. I was designing the power supply of my laptop and I > noticed that some power bucks and step up/down converters (Which both > seem to do the same thing. Please tell me otherwise.), produced a more > stable power supply than others. In order to find out if they are truly > suitable for suppling power to sensitive electronics I've heard that I > need an oscilloscope. > I currently own: > > 1. #222634543946 > "DC-DC 10/12/15/20A 150/250/300/400/1200W Step up Step > down Buck Boost Converter" > > 2. #152710861245 > "2A DC Boost Step-up Adjustable Converter Module 3v-24v to 3.3v 5v 6v > 9v 12v 24v" > > After learning that some guy with an oscilloscope reviewed these, I'm > planning to get: #122923215542 > "6 Pack MP1584EN ultra Small DC-DC 3A power Step-Down > Adjustable Module Buck M2H3 6 Pack MP1584EN ultra Small DC-DC 3A power > Step-Down Adjustable Module Buck" > > I've seen many oscilloscopes online on crowd funding campaigns. I've > never been certain of which to get, if any. The real professional ones > are out of my budget range of about $100. *I'll pay more if I must*, but I > already did not anticipate the need to actually evaluate what should be > solid products. > I probably should find a solid adjustable DC power supply to test these > with vs. an old laptop power pack or some batteries. > What I need some of these things to do is to take a dynamically variable > voltage as input (Li-Ion batteries in series), and produce a constant > voltage as output. Others I need to just convert to the correct voltage > from the old laptop power pack. > > Thanks! > David > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From rhkramer at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 13:09:42 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:09:42 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Oscilloscope or bust? In-Reply-To: <20180909232542.15fb0c5c@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> References: <20180909232542.15fb0c5c@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> Message-ID: <201809100809.42327.rhkramer@gmail.com> On Sunday, September 09, 2018 11:25:42 PM David Niklas wrote: > I've seen many oscilloscopes online on crowd funding campaigns. I've > never been certain of which to get, if any. The real professional ones > are out of my budget range of about $100. *I'll pay more if I must*, but I > already did not anticipate the need to actually evaluate what should be > solid products. If you want to, write to me privately and give me an idea of where you live -- I have an old osciloscope (in a closet that is hard to access ;-) that I'd probably be willing to sell at a reasonable price. I can't remember the brand offhand, it is approximately 40 years old, I never used it hard, and the original cost was over $1000 (I bought it new). I'm sure the bandwidth is at least 20 MHz., and may be higher. (I just don't remember -- I know I wanted to find something that would be suitable for the clock speed of the Digital Group computer I was building (from a kit).) Reasonable price -- well, I'm thinking about that. I used it to work on my Digital Group computer kit that had some problems (back around 1977), and haven't used it since. I sort of like having it sit in the closet in case I need it (or I get my son interested in something for which he'd use it), but, if I'm realistic, neither will probably happen. Hmm, I guess I might be willing to sell the DG computer as well, if anyone is interested (uses a Z-80 CPU) and has some problems. From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 23:32:07 2018 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 16:32:07 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Thoughts on Why Blender should Fork In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 9:51 PM Jean Flamelle wrote: > In that case, I renew my criticism about the engine's development > direction, though albeit Blender seems somewhat embarrassed by the > decision with how they seem to mock it up as not giving up when that's > what it seems. > > Dynamic media designing kits fail on the general abstraction level, > deciding when what information is useful. Godot succeeds considerably > by making specialized game logic scripting languages. These languages > are stereotyped as easy to make & easy to learn, so raising complexity > past a certain degree, triggers many anxieties about distraction from > the art of design for the one on the learning side of the coin. > > Perhaps Urbit lies in that realm separating a script's complexity from > a program's complexity without incorporating any familiar elements > from projects trying to gradually close that gap rather attempting to > close that gap almost all at once. An artificial gap surely, that the > only barrier preventing closure amounts to bias I'm not sure I entirely follow your reasoning, but have you heard of Armory3D? It is a game engine that is being developed that integrates into blender. From paul at boddie.org.uk Tue Sep 11 23:36:43 2018 From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 00:36:43 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Schedule Updates? Message-ID: <2965924.OxDjdg38Ux@jeremy> Hello, I was reviewing the last update on Crowd Supply for the EOMA68 campaign [1], and taking information from that and from discussions on this list, it seems that the following timeline was being followed: 15th June: Crowd Supply update, prototype tested, DRAM tested and ordered, HDMI not tested Late July: DRAM manufactured ("about a month to have the 8 Gbit 1600 MHz DDR3 x8 RAM ICs manufactured"), assembly begins (working from "three months after getting the cards back from assembly before shipping begins") Late October: "delivery of the first units" (presumably "delivery" is the same as "shipping", meaning "dispatch" from Crowd Supply) I hope that things have been proceeding as anticipated. August was a quiet month on this list, and I imagine that Luke has been very busy with all his projects, but I wonder if there is any news about whether the DRAM manufacturer came through, whether assembly could start, whether testing might have begun (and was hopefully a success), and so on. I imagine that there is also the awkward matter of getting the boards from China to the US, related bureaucracy, and other complicating factors. Anyway, I hope everything is going well, that Luke isn't overworked, and that I didn't miss something that would have made the current state of the schedule a bit clearer. Paul [1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/2-7-5-samples-received-dram-is-ok-micro-hdmi-to-confirm From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 03:50:01 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 22:50:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Thoughts on Why Blender should Fork In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nodes are a helpful visualization tool Access to underlying code and an interpreter still is very important. Seems to rely on standardized languages and its own scripting language seems to have many esoteric variable names. I'm trying to express that more important is enabling others the ability to express themselves in a way that can be saved as data and later interpreted, rather than offering them tools which esoterically enable fast development and output. Dream/vision first, actualization later. The art first needs recorded, then the art can get beautiful form. -- CC0 From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Sep 12 11:13:51 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 11:13:51 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Schedule Updates? In-Reply-To: <2965924.OxDjdg38Ux@jeremy> References: <2965924.OxDjdg38Ux@jeremy> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:36 PM, Paul Boddie wrote: > Anyway, I hope everything is going well, that Luke isn't overworked, and that > I didn't miss something that would have made the current state of the schedule > a bit clearer. hiya paul, thanks for the prompting: the latest update i wrote just yesterday, and it doesn't pull any punches. i've had to take contract work and it's a 100% full-time distraction. the DRAM's fine, new 2.7.5 samples work great (or maybe it's 2.7.6 i can't even remember). i'm in europe: i have absolutely no equipment here. i have to arrange to get mike a laptop with a remote-accessible tunnel, so i can copy OSes to it etc. that's going to take time. l. From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Wed Sep 12 12:24:48 2018 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 12:24:48 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Schedule Updates? In-Reply-To: References: <2965924.OxDjdg38Ux@jeremy> Message-ID: Looking forward to reading the update. :) despite the work/money/time situation of compromise/distraction. i look forward to hearing the news anyway :) From penyuanhsing at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 13:46:14 2018 From: penyuanhsing at gmail.com (Pen-Yuan Hsing) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:46:14 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Shout out to EOMA68 in new article Message-ID: Dear list, Waaaay back near the end of 2017 I was invited to write a review of the book "The Hardware Hacker" (https://nostarch.com/hardwarehacker) by Bunnie Huang, the person behind the Novena project: https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena My peer-reviewed review article was finally published here yesterday under CC BY 4.0: https://doi.org/10.5334/joh.11 I mention this because I managed to put in a shout out to the "the EOMA68 line of computing devices" with a link to its Crowd Supply page. First of all, please feel free to refer to this article via the DOI link above, and share it widely in whatever forum you see fit. Secondly, I'd appreciate any/all critiques of my article that you're happy to provide. I suspect the most direct way is to use the article's built-in Disqus function which you can see in the "Discussion" tab on the article's page (again, via the link above). I am by no means a hardware expert nor a seasoned veteran of the free software movement. So your constructive criticisms would be appreciated. I just hope that this will, in a small way, help promote the amazing work Luke has been doing. Thanks! From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Sep 12 14:57:01 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 14:57:01 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Shout out to EOMA68 in new article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Pen-Yuan Hsing wrote: > My peer-reviewed review article was finally published here yesterday under > CC BY 4.0: > > https://doi.org/10.5334/joh.11 congratulations! > I just hope that this will, in a small way, help promote the amazing work > Luke has been doing. Thanks! thanks pen-yang. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 19:05:44 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:05:44 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] So this is kind of interesting, I thought... Message-ID: https://hackaday.com/2018/09/17/a-1-linux-capable-hand-solderable-processor/ A (barely) hand-solderable Linux-able ARM SoC. US$1 each if you buy a full reel from a questionable supplier, and the package is a 176-lead LQFP (!) with half-millimeter pitch (!!) -- but still only ~US$3 for qty/1 from reputable sources, and it is /technically/ hand-workable if you've got a temperature-controlled iron with the right tip and a particularly steady hand. I'm impressed. The bad news, though, is that it's an Allwinner part with all of the usual baggage. The /worse/ news is that it's actually ~6yrs old and plods along at 1GHz. Somehow I just don't see it running Android 9.0 Pie without melting down spectacularly -- although, it might be adequate for running eg Linux Mint or something similarly lightweight... I wonder how cheaply one could manufacture a complete all-in-one PC with one of these...? Back-of-the-envelope calcs makes me think one could compete with those ~US$100-150 Atom z8300/z8350 MiniPCs on eBay and Amazon and AliExpress (none of which have screens built in, mind you), but I've been wrong before, for sure... From paul at boddie.org.uk Tue Sep 18 20:26:24 2018 From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 21:26:24 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] So this is kind of interesting, I thought... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1729081.bouviKR4rf@jeremy> On Tuesday 18. September 2018 14.05.44 Christopher Havel wrote: > https://hackaday.com/2018/09/17/a-1-linux-capable-hand-solderable-processor/ Interesting comment from Olimex: https://hackaday.com/2018/09/17/a-1-linux-capable-hand-solderable-processor/#comment-5108388 In short, the article is referring to the A13, procured from people recycling them from old devices and, I could easily imagine, doing all the usual tricks to pretend that they are new/working/genuine. > A (barely) hand-solderable Linux-able ARM SoC. US$1 each if you buy a full > reel from a questionable supplier According to another comment from Olimex, the original packaging is trays not reels. But it wouldn't be Hackaday if it weren't encouraging questionable commerce and bizarre hacks that are difficult to reproduce and less convenient than doing things in other ways. And there's also the mandatory Hackaday clickbait factor, of course. Meanwhile: http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner/r8/ The R8, A13 equivalence being noted in other comments on that article, plus the NextThingCo connection. Paul From eaterjolly at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 14:33:04 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:33:04 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Logos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I made a concept logo a while back for EOMA, which had an E in cloister black font to reference L. Lawliet (a symbol for Justice as well as a detective with worldwide logistics as well as a keen eye for anonymity and security), an O made by merging elements from the blender logo with the eye in lulsec's troll face, an M relatively undecided however temporarily borrowing the M from a microsoft logo, and an A in courier font (the first public domain font I know about). All wrapped inside a hollowed out version of Fisheye Placebo's comic logo, which symbolized transparency/surveillance by reference to a fisheye lens (further symbolically I placed the lulsec blender merged O where the pupil would appear). Shortly afterwards, I discovered that the uniforms in "the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" all bare a mysterious m on the chest resembling L's cloister black font. The school has no official name I know about, so I believe the M intended irony with story's name. Melancholy over dissatisfaction with society having uninteresting aesthetics as well as individuals having slow personal development appear like the two greatest most persistent themes. The series plays with reshaping the world anew by destroying and rebuilding, as well as how aesthetics end up created by those who desire them often without their noticing. The story makes oblique commentary on these themes heavily disjointing the what with the how, by making the how always magic. I find that, oddly appropriate for libre hardware. Being a movement about ethics, I find aesthetics sits just behind our backs. We desire ethics we don't notice, thereby creating those ethics with our passion to DO as well as to complain and almost never worry about getting copied. L's logistics embedded L in the world. Blender and Lulsec idealized openness to help from anyone. Haruhi wanted a complex modular world. Courier symbolizes a computer's role as a transport mechanism for ideas. I imagined whatever number could also type in Courier. I wanted to know if anyone re-thought this idea at all, as well as feedback on the new thought about the M. Je ne sais pas quoi ~ Thank you, in advance. -- CC0 From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Sep 21 15:45:23 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:45:23 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Logos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Proprietary OSes and even no OS in the case of FPGAs is permitted, they just cant put in DRM, and the Certification costs which are waived for libre projects will be a LOT. On Friday, January 27, 2017, John Luke Gibson wrote: > There are two ways to interprete that bear in mind. > We probably want the logo to contain libre (or references/parts > thereof), but you would be right to say we probably don't want libre > itself in the logo. > > We don't want to hinge too much on the fact we promote libre, because > optimally libre would be ~~assumed~~ in all things computer. We don't > want to set the theme that it should be a buzz word, however it should > represent a standard of the way things simply should be. > > That being said, while we don't want libre to symbolize eoma, we still > want eoma to symbolize libre and we still want a logo which reminds > people of that and allows the one's who care to take solace in the > presence of our logo. Don't forget! > > On 1/27/17, Allan Mwenda wrote: > > Definitely no cats too. > > I think the caps font used in the logo example previously is great. > > Adding to that, I think we should not put libre in the logo. If someone > > wants that let them sweat extra for RYF certification. > > > > > > On January 26, 2017 10:04:56 AM GMT+03:00, John Luke Gibson > > wrote: > >>I would highly recommend avoiding any logos, without proper historical > >>reference. One of the problems with traditional Linux icons, are that > >>they are very un-iconic. It's better to be textually based, in my > >>opinion, than to use disorienting imagery. At this point, most of the > >>clay has already set so referencing/alluding-to other gnu projects > >>[such as blender] wouldn't be detrimental, however ascii has a very > >>richer history of use by "hacktivists". > >> > >>Referencing some historically relevant (to "hacktivism") ascii > >>iconography either overtly or subtly, kindof more or less as a hat tip > >>to communities which support said historical events will cause the > >>logo a greater likelihood of being regarded as iconic. I wish I had > >>specific examples, but possibly using cloister black font would be a > >>subtle hat tip to anonymous for some individuals use of various > >>letters in that font as copy-cat of L from Death Note. > >> > >>Another thing of note, would be that we need to be careful who we tip > >>our hats to, to be careful of who in the future people might assume us > >>to endorse. A font is innocuous enough, that it can be adapted later > >>due to circumstance (should a need arise to disassociate) without > >>damaging the recognize-ability of any logo. > >> > >>The universal and modular style of blender, is a good point to mimic. > >>A solid dot in the center of the "O" would probably be a subtle enough > >>correlation to the blender logo. > >> > >>This is the pattern of thinking we need in developing logos and > >>"slogans". > >> > >>Thinking about what sounds catchy only correlates us with random > >>corporate culture. We don't need to be entirely original as we have a > >>history to fall back on. However originality might also help > >>distinguish us from our predecessors, the last thing we want is to > >>fail to distinguish ourselves from your neighborhood corporation. > >> > >>I would recommend Luke to contact Wenqing Yang a.k.a. "Yummei", using > >>the notability of the project to attract their attention. I would like > >>to point out that despite being a cultural figure (famous artist) in > >>the hacktivist community they previously lauched a multi-million > >>dollar successful indiegogo which caused them much heart ache (per > >>their blog) over legal controversy with so-called partners and their > >>personal admonishment that they failed to do enough. > >> > >>>From: Alexander Ross > >>>To: Linux on small ARM machines > >>>Cc: > >>>Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2017 16:07:15 +0000 > >>>Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Logos > >>>this all these efforts, got me to have a play around too. :) > >>> > >>> i was started having a go at one idea of letters inserting into each > >>> other kinda like a module. > >>> > >>> I had put E and O in side the M. it then kinda looked like/spelled > >>Meoo > >>> like a cat. > >>> So what about a darn cat logo? maybe a cat playing with a eoma68 card > >>in > >>> its paws? > >>> > >>> sry for the yet another internet cat image type of suggestion, never > >>> thought id be making one heh. > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > >>http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > >>Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > > -- > > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 00:18:44 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 19:18:44 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Logos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hm, I understand that in practice. Just feels like a cop-out on paper. Does anyone know about a mailing-list with ethereum programmers who are as serious as Luke about getting stuff done the proper way? Contract security seems like a joke these days. And, for a VM with no hardware visibility, EVM assembly seems unnecessarily complicated. I feel like even for cryptocurrency detractors, Taler could get implemented on ethereum. Without a kickstarter or liberpay, with customize-able rules, like raising an advance fund, for a free culture initiative. Without advance funds, I don't believe free culture can effectively get funded. -- CC0 From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Sep 22 01:48:44 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 01:48:44 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Logos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Jean Flamelle wrote: > Without advance funds, > I don't believe free culture > can effectively get funded. money is empowerment, it is stored energy (potential energy). the key i found to a successful crowd-funding campaign was being able to explain the "why", effectively. ethical technology had no "why" until the consequences of *unethical* technology started to hit home. example: someone just very recently sent me a link to assange's last video before his internet and other communications were cut off by the ecuadorian embassy. l. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 02:48:02 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 21:48:02 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Logos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't like the word empowerment much, because I don't like the word "power" as too vague and too loaded. "Money" acts as a sybil certificate in a massive anonymous support economy, a transfer-able proof-of-work. I don't believe the opposite capitalism and communism take opposite extremes, I believe communism and proprietary-ism do. The idea about a community, means everyone could learn how to complete any task without difficulty. That's the ideal. If everyone knows how to complete every task and enough bodies lend their support, money loses necessity. -- CC0 From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 03:02:00 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 22:02:00 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Logos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Forgive me chiming in with an admittedly esoteric viewpoint... but... What if "money" was a system of measurement, without intrinsic value...? What I'm envisioning is a barter economy, regulated somewhat like communistic states do -- but using a standardized system of worth-measurement. So, say I had bricks of cheese, and you had boxes of eggs. Given that my cheese is say 0.5kg/brick, and you have 12 eggs to a box, we'd look up how much the gov't says our relative goods are worth, and exchange proportionately. So, say, one kg of cheese is worth ten credits that day, and three eggs is worth one credit, so I'd get fifteen eggs per brick of cheese, or five boxes of eggs for every four bricks of cheese if I've got my math right (sorry, I'm severely math-challenged -- to the level of having some sort of otherwise-unnamed "math fluency disorder" that I was labeled with in grade school... the gist is that I understand the *concepts* on actually something of a slightly advanced level, but I can't manage the actual *exercises*, real-world or textbook, without a half-decent calculator). Alternatively, in a less-regulated society, we'd haggle for a while and figure out for ourselves what eggs and cheese should be worth -- although that somewhat sidesteps the need for standardized units altogether. Of course, that one guy who only has stuff that absolutely nobody wants, kinda gets into a bit of trouble in a barter economy... the conceptual system is not without its flaws. But, hey, that's true of everything out there, so... I dunno. /shrug From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Sep 22 03:08:28 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 03:08:28 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Logos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 3:02 AM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Forgive me chiming in with an admittedly esoteric viewpoint... but... > > What if "money" was a system of measurement, without intrinsic value...? > What I'm envisioning is a barter economy, i would hazard a guess that that would work well in closely-knit small communities (and probably does). l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 04:04:37 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 21:04:37 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Logos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1DD8D0A7-2256-46B8-83B7-63D568A53A16@gmail.com> On Sep 21, 2018, at 20:02, Christopher Havel wrote: > […] Interesting economic scenario. I think it works best when the arbiter of the exchange rate for goods is impartial. Otherwise the exchange rate would be influenced by biases. > if I've got my math right (sorry, I'm severely math-challenged -- to the level of > having some sort of otherwise-unnamed "math fluency disorder" that I was > labeled with in grade school... the gist is that I understand the > *concepts* on actually something of a slightly advanced level, but I can't > manage the actual *exercises*, real-world or textbook, without a > half-decent calculator). In this case, the arithmetic associated with your example seems to work out fine. Maybe you've outgrown the "math fluency disorder"? In my recollection it seems boys' brains mature later and I know there can be significant individual variation in the timing. > Alternatively, in a less-regulated society, we'd haggle for a while and > figure out for ourselves what eggs and cheese should be worth -- although > that somewhat sidesteps the need for standardized units altogether. This avoids the bias of a government official--exchanging that for the biases of each potential customer. > Of course, that one guy who only has stuff that absolutely nobody wants, kinda > gets into a bit of trouble in a barter economy... the conceptual system is > not without its flaws. But, hey, that's true of everything out there, so... > I dunno. /shrug That guy goes bankrupt if he doesn't adapt to the market demand in capitalism. Sincerely, Richard From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Sep 22 04:47:04 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 04:47:04 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Logos In-Reply-To: <1DD8D0A7-2256-46B8-83B7-63D568A53A16@gmail.com> References: <1DD8D0A7-2256-46B8-83B7-63D568A53A16@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, September 22, 2018, Richard Wilbur wrote: > On Sep 21, 2018, at 20:02, Christopher Havel > wrote: > > […] > > Interesting economic scenario. I think it works best when the arbiter of > the exchange rate for goods is impartial. Otherwise the exchange rate > would be influenced by biases. > > This is where blockchain on a global scale helps at a local one (if adopted properly) as the maths of PKI is inviolate and now well known if only indirectly. It is the first time in human history where third party arbitration may be replaced with inviolate mathenatics. An individual selling at a biased rate will have that unfair exchange recorded forever. If all sellers refuse to use anything other than that mechanism, no unfair exhange can take place. So the trick is, to identify those locations and communities who are being taken advantage of and offer them something inviolate. Westerners have not had to live the same kind of hell described in Professor Yunus book, so the innovation for real economic change is unlikely to sprout there. -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 16:40:46 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:40:46 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Logos In-Reply-To: References: <1DD8D0A7-2256-46B8-83B7-63D568A53A16@gmail.com> Message-ID: @Christopher, I would describe my issue with that interpretation as follows One doesn't transfer meters between traders. One can't transfer a measurement. Also, a measurement doesn't require difficulty by nature. We can always pull tape further, however, if one doesn't have enough money to count to a large enough number, acquiring more money requires non-trivial difficulty. Also, as far as we know distance has no limit. Any money counted, represents a fraction of all money in circulation with a calculable maximum. I return to my contention that money merely acts as a sybil certificate. -- CC0 From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Sep 22 17:51:23 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 17:51:23 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Logos In-Reply-To: <21b785c8-ba7b-dab0-3d5a-526aada09821@riseup.net> References: <21b785c8-ba7b-dab0-3d5a-526aada09821@riseup.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 6:23 AM, Julie Marchant wrote: > Just a somewhat random suggestion: > > Perhaps "EOMA" should be spelled in lowercase, "eoma", next to the logo. > That would encourage people to speak it like a word, rather than saying > each letter in sequence ("ee-oh-em-aye"). I find that non-technical > people tend to default to the latter when they see anything in all caps hi i saw this go by very quickly when travelling and it's quite insightful, so wanted to acknowledge that (and actually respond on-topic for the thread for once) :) i found that interestingly, americans pronounce "A" as "eh". i've always, always pronounced it ee-oh-merh/muh so, thank you julie. l. From doark at mail.com Sun Sep 23 20:54:03 2018 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 15:54:03 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Oscilloscope or bust? In-Reply-To: <20180909232542.15fb0c5c@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> References: <20180909232542.15fb0c5c@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> Message-ID: <20180923155403.40358b63@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> On Sun, 9 Sep 2018 23:25:42 -0400 David Niklas wrote: > Hi, > I need help here. I was designing the power supply of my laptop and I > noticed that some power bucks and step up/down converters (Which both > seem to do the same thing. Please tell me otherwise.), produced a more > stable power supply than others. In order to find out if they are truly > suitable for suppling power to sensitive electronics I've heard that I > need an oscilloscope. > I currently own: > > 1. #222634543946 > "DC-DC 10/12/15/20A 150/250/300/400/1200W Step up Step > down Buck Boost Converter" > > 2. #152710861245 > "2A DC Boost Step-up Adjustable Converter Module 3v-24v to 3.3v 5v 6v > 9v 12v 24v" > > After learning that some guy with an oscilloscope reviewed these, I'm > planning to get: #122923215542 > "6 Pack MP1584EN ultra Small DC-DC 3A power Step-Down > Adjustable Module Buck M2H3 6 Pack MP1584EN ultra Small DC-DC 3A power > Step-Down Adjustable Module Buck" > > I've seen many oscilloscopes online on crowd funding campaigns. I've > never been certain of which to get, if any. The real professional ones > are out of my budget range of about $100. *I'll pay more if I must*, > but I already did not anticipate the need to actually evaluate what > should be solid products. > I probably should find a solid adjustable DC power supply to test these > with vs. an old laptop power pack or some batteries. > What I need some of these things to do is to take a dynamically variable > voltage as input (Li-Ion batteries in series), and produce a constant > voltage as output. Others I need to just convert to the correct voltage > from the old laptop power pack. > > Thanks! > David Alternatively, does anyone know a good place to ask? I searched a lot online and found a forum www.electro-tech-online.com which I signed up to and was rejected. It was a very weird sign up process. You're supposed to input your name but the form will only take one character (and allows white space as that one!) You also have to tell what education level you're at (I choose student), and what your expertise is, which being a student was none, but they did not have that choice and the others were things like "PCB layout engineer," so I selected everything. After being rejected I wrote to the admin asking the reason and have yet to get a response after about a week... In other news, I found a couple of guys on youtube who did a review of the 300W buck converter I own and it seems to be a good model with a 168mhz switching freq and 218ma voltage variation independent of load, but I must confess that I have not done any work with computer circuits until now so they might have stricter requirements than I think. So, I think I'll add a 3.3uf capacitor onto the leads and call it quits from there. 3.3uf should be able to reach saturation at 168mhz unless my calculations of the time constants are incorrect. Feel free to check me on that, I did use a calculator this time (I learned via pencil and paper and I still have my notes!) Still, I think I could use a good place to ask these questions on because although this list is called "arm netbook" it seems that a lot of questions I post on the subject go unanswered, but that might just be my perception :) Status update: other than the above, I'm still trying to find genuine Li-Ion batteries (both my stock of Li-Ion and my Ni-Mh batteries are duds. I did replace the Ni-Mh ones), and I managed to fry a pair of my tester leads (turns out that the tester is rated for 10A and the leads for 8A? So I'm building an open source set of leads. :) They "mind melded" to each other when I decided to test if my 300W buck converter would work. Another annoying thing is that it turns out that electrolytic capacitors are being faked in addition to batteries. I never needed a capacitor tester before because the ones that were not bulging were marked and the ones that are bulging are not safe. So I am getting a little TC1 multi-function tester that was reviewed here: https://lygte-info.dk/review/ComponentTester%20Multifunction%20Tester%20T1%20UK.html The gentlemen also reviewed a bunch of batteries, but most of them are no longer available or are very expensive. Thanks! From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 21:04:01 2018 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 16:04:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Oscilloscope or bust? In-Reply-To: <20180923155403.40358b63@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> References: <20180909232542.15fb0c5c@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> <20180923155403.40358b63@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> Message-ID: Sounds like you're taking your plunge at the deep end of the pool, and you're getting a bit lost along the way because you're in over your head. Get this book. Read it. Study it. Build things. (Don't trust eBay for parts! I know this from experience.) You will LEARN. https://www.amazon.com/dp/0945053282 Alternatively, if you dig around, you may be able to find a PDF copy of "MAKE: Electronics" online. That would also be a good book to start with. First learn to swim. Then learn to dive. Then you can truly get out of the shallows... On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 3:54 PM David Niklas wrote: > On Sun, 9 Sep 2018 23:25:42 -0400 > David Niklas wrote: > > Hi, > > I need help here. I was designing the power supply of my laptop and I > > noticed that some power bucks and step up/down converters (Which both > > seem to do the same thing. Please tell me otherwise.), produced a more > > stable power supply than others. In order to find out if they are truly > > suitable for suppling power to sensitive electronics I've heard that I > > need an oscilloscope. > > I currently own: > > > > 1. #222634543946 > > "DC-DC 10/12/15/20A 150/250/300/400/1200W Step up Step > > down Buck Boost Converter" > > > > 2. #152710861245 > > "2A DC Boost Step-up Adjustable Converter Module 3v-24v to 3.3v 5v 6v > > 9v 12v 24v" > > > > After learning that some guy with an oscilloscope reviewed these, I'm > > planning to get: #122923215542 > > "6 Pack MP1584EN ultra Small DC-DC 3A power Step-Down > > Adjustable Module Buck M2H3 6 Pack MP1584EN ultra Small DC-DC 3A power > > Step-Down Adjustable Module Buck" > > > > I've seen many oscilloscopes online on crowd funding campaigns. I've > > never been certain of which to get, if any. The real professional ones > > are out of my budget range of about $100. *I'll pay more if I must*, > > but I already did not anticipate the need to actually evaluate what > > should be solid products. > > I probably should find a solid adjustable DC power supply to test these > > with vs. an old laptop power pack or some batteries. > > What I need some of these things to do is to take a dynamically variable > > voltage as input (Li-Ion batteries in series), and produce a constant > > voltage as output. Others I need to just convert to the correct voltage > > from the old laptop power pack. > > > > Thanks! > > David > > Alternatively, does anyone know a good place to ask? > > I searched a lot online and found a forum www.electro-tech-online.com > which I signed up to and was rejected. It was a very weird sign up > process. You're supposed to input your name but the form will only take > one character (and allows white space as that one!) You also have to tell > what education level you're at (I choose student), and what your > expertise is, which being a student was none, but they did not have that > choice and the others were things like "PCB layout engineer," so I > selected everything. > After being rejected I wrote to the admin asking the reason and have yet > to get a response after about a week... > In other news, I found a couple of guys on youtube who did a review of > the 300W buck converter I own and it seems to be a good model with a > 168mhz switching freq and 218ma voltage variation independent of load, but > I must confess that I have not done any work with computer circuits until > now so they might have stricter requirements than I think. > So, I think I'll add a 3.3uf capacitor onto the leads and call it quits > from there. 3.3uf should be able to reach saturation at 168mhz unless my > calculations of the time constants are incorrect. Feel free to check me > on that, I did use a calculator this time (I learned via pencil and > paper and I still have my notes!) > > Still, I think I could use a good place to ask these questions on because > although this list is called "arm netbook" it seems that a lot of > questions I post on the subject go unanswered, but that might just be my > perception :) > > Status update: other than the above, I'm still trying to find genuine > Li-Ion batteries (both my stock of Li-Ion and my Ni-Mh batteries are > duds. I did replace the Ni-Mh ones), and I managed to fry a pair of my > tester leads (turns out that the tester is rated for 10A and the leads > for 8A? So I'm building an open source set of leads. :) They "mind > melded" to each other when I decided to test if my 300W buck converter > would work. > Another annoying thing is that it turns out that electrolytic capacitors > are being faked in addition to batteries. I never needed a capacitor > tester before because the ones that were not bulging were marked and the > ones that are bulging are not safe. So I am getting a little TC1 > multi-function tester that was reviewed here: > > https://lygte-info.dk/review/ComponentTester%20Multifunction%20Tester%20T1%20UK.html > The gentlemen also reviewed a bunch of batteries, but most of them are no > longer available or are very expensive. > > > Thanks! > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Sep 25 18:37:38 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 18:37:38 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> <7209211531832521@iva4-6d7004ac8463.qloud-c.yandex.net> Message-ID: i added it here http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/micro_desktop/mdesktop_i2c.jpg could you link that on the page http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/micro_desktop/ --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 1:52 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > Here's the circuit diagram-scribbled on a piece of paper with pencil. > Photo shot with phone camera and cropped and scaled down in GIMP. If it > needs to be larger to be readable, I still have the original so can rescale > as needed. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Sep 27 09:46:50 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 09:46:50 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre-riscv.org 3d gpu project Message-ID: long story, there's a new project underway which is to create a 3D GPU (and associated complete processor) entirely as a libre project, using RISC-V as the basis. there's a lot to get done: the roadmap is quite straightforward: http://libre-riscv.org/3d_gpu/roadmap/ it'll be a vulkan3d *software* driver written in rust and using llvm. where and if absolutely strictly necessary intrinsic inline assembler will be placed into the rust code: for the rest it will be straight to llvm, and from there using a hardware-level parallelism API called "SimpleV" which will take care of, at the hardware level, a variable-length "vectorisation" aka variable-size SIMD (which is a really *really* misleading way to describe it but SIMD and vectorisation is what most people know). for the most part this is a *software* project not a hardware one so if anyone has software engineering skills, documentation skills or anything else, do get in touch. mailing lists: http://lists.libre-riscv.org l. From wean.irdeh at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 14:38:02 2018 From: wean.irdeh at gmail.com (Wean Irdeh) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 20:38:02 +0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre-riscv.org 3d gpu project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://libre-riscv.org/3d_gpu/roadmap/ ^ the link does not work for me, it says 404 not found http://lists.libre-riscv.org ^ this one says 403 forbidden From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Sep 27 14:54:43 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 14:54:43 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre-riscv.org 3d gpu project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Wean Irdeh wrote: > http://libre-riscv.org/3d_gpu/roadmap/ > ^ the link does not work for me, it says 404 not found works fine here - annoyingly redirects to https, but works. when using lynx however... it really *really* weirdly redirects to lists.libre-riscv.org which of course is a totally different host. ok so that's because of a "listen" directive in the nginx config. > http://lists.libre-riscv.org > ^ this one says 403 forbidden also works fine here on chrome: firefox not so, had an nginx location missing. From wean.irdeh at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 17:00:11 2018 From: wean.irdeh at gmail.com (Wean Irdeh) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 23:00:11 +0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre-riscv.org 3d gpu project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks all issues I mentioned now fixed From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Sep 27 17:08:59 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 17:08:59 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre-riscv.org 3d gpu project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 5:00 PM, Wean Irdeh wrote: > Thanks all issues I mentioned now fixed appreciated the heads-up otherwise i look like a bit of a muppet :) From eaterjolly at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 21:46:48 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:46:48 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Wikipedia policy change, list might care about Message-ID: I wrote a proposal for a major policy change, which establishes conditions for acceptable conditions to cite a primary or biased secondary source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Wikipedia,_a_quatertiary_source. Once in the past, Luke had trouble with a wikipedia article on EOMA that got user-ified, because rigorous news coverage for eoma lacked. Luke definitely noted a little known hypocrisy on wikipedia, which stems from the official policy lagging with the convention on wikipedia on general exceptions to reliability. Since Luke came off as a special interest, perhaps undue scrutiny came about and the rulebook got thrown around a bit. I didn't read to deeply into the conversations back then and I got inspired to write this proposal from my experience learning wikipedia by reading the rules first before editing, noticing many potential caveats, and arguing around the rules too effectively and realizing I would only need to push criticisms and loopholes for probably about a month of pointless back-and-forth on already made points before letting it sink in that otherwise unreliable sources give credible information in this case, for transparent or inferrable reasons. -- CC0 From rhkramer at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 22:42:10 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 17:42:10 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Wikipedia policy change, list might care about In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201809281742.10649.rhkramer@gmail.com> On Friday, September 28, 2018 04:46:48 PM Jean Flamelle wrote: > I wrote a proposal for a major policy change, which establishes > conditions for acceptable conditions to cite a primary or biased > secondary source. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Wikipedia, > _a_quatertiary_source. It appears to have been deleted with a WP:SNOW notation. Is it short enough to post here? From eaterjolly at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 23:57:59 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 18:57:59 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Wikipedia policy change, list might care about In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Welp, I got censored: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)&oldid=861636670#Wikipedia,_a_quatertiary_source. -- CC0 From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat Sep 29 00:06:53 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 19:06:53 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Wikipedia policy change, list might care about In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Uh, not especially short, but I suppose short enough if I parse out the bit related to an admin essentially lists all the policies that would need adapted if anyone agreed with me and says that's too much change this doesn't have a snowballs chance, I will block you from editing wikipedia if you say any more about this after I close, collapse, and archive your proposal so no one else sees this monstrosity ever. Here it is: Wikipedia guidelines call Wikipedia a tertiary source. I dispute that claim. Tertiary sources don't rely only on reliable sources. Secondary sources rarely ever have any oversight. (besides economic) Typically, tertiary sources like most encyclopedias have strict over-sight. Wikipedia mostly cites tertiary sources, including meta-studies as well as academic reviews. Overall Wikipedia mostly only accepts tertiary sources, including news which cites other news. Secondary sources necessarily interpret information, generating helpfully extreme bias. NPOV means neutral-POV not mythical "no-POV", so neutral-POV can't exist without POV. The more extreme and diverse the biases tertiary sources absorb, the more reliable the information. Wikipedia should not discourage secondary sources from generating extreme bias. Instead wikipedia should encourage extreme bias from secondary sources and encourage tertiary sources to absorb that bias. Then, wikipedians should combine and weigh tertiary sources against each other to decide what information achieves a minimum standard. Wikipedians should do this by checking primary and secondary sources to ensure the tertiary perspective accounts for all said by them. Wikipedia should change policy to allow unreliable sources only to make up for gaps in the accounts made by tertiary sources. Gaps should include: explained contradictions, in behavior or moral positions; unaccounted details (about events) supported substantially by primary sources, or; unaccounted novel justifications or novel moral positions supported substantially by secondary source. Eaterjolly (talk) 09:48, 28 September 2018 (UTC) Reply: Editors already WP:IAR, when including biased secondary and primary sources. Often when an obviously notable view doesn't get covered by any neutral sources, so wikipedians erroneously categorize that as WP:SELFSOURCE. Since wikipedia gets hailed as the only necessary tertiary source, tertiary sources often mascaraed as secondary sources while getting called meta-news as well as wilfully lacking oversight because they push the issue of scrutiny onto textbook authors, academics, or wikipedia. First, I propose that details from platformed primary sources (having a significant audience) not accounted for by the journalism of any secondary or tertiary sources, get officially allowed on wikipedia which already happens by convention under WP:SELFSOURCE Second, I propose notably biased or extremely biased secondary sources (i.e. the Daily Mail, Breitbart, BuzzFeed) for POV'es unaccounted for by neutral sources. This also happens by convention, yet much more contentiously. Often discussions go out into trial by verbal combat whether the source's articles completely irrelevant to the topic at hand give reliable information. Obviously different sources give reliable information on different topics, and sources which venture outside the narrow scope of their specialty typically make mistakes while outside that scope. I wouldn't trust Breitbart to report on gender, nor would I trust Buzzfeed to report on history, though I might trust Brietbart to report on history and Buzzfeed to report on gender. Consequently I don't think this would change much except focus discussions more, and open up the possibility to incorporate multimedia sources in citations. I personally would like to find TED talks cited on wikipedia. The proposal would result in an official section in the guidelines which would state primary sources and secondary source can compensate for gaps in reporting by rigorous tertiary sources. Again, already the practice. Primary sources should give information suitable for wikipedia when the source has a platform (a significant audience), the particular details cited present minimal POV, the details have not gotten accounted for by tertiary or secondary sources, and the particular details cited have gotten corroborated by other platformed primary sources. Biased secondary sources should give information suitable for wikipedia when the source has a platform (a significant audience), the opinions cited form a remarkable POV (non-trivial and unique, in other words), the opinions haven't gotten accounted for in the reporting by any rigorous tertiary sources nor can get inferred false by evidence reported thereof, and the opinions cited have gotten corroborated as believe-able by other platformed secondary sources. This would also open up citing notable youtube vloggers for opinions not expressed, investigated, or otherwise accounted for in any way by mainstream news. This would also open up youtube news like the Philip DeFranco show for inclusion on wikipedia as a mostly reliable source. I welcome further discussion about this. Anyone, please comment! Eaterjolly (talk) 19:48, 28 September 2018 (UTC) -- CC0 From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat Sep 29 02:05:28 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 21:05:28 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Wikipedia policy change, list might care about In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Update: the admin apologized. The proposal still hasn't been relisted. Since tensions got so heated, I'll wait till tomorrow for that. -- CC0 From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Sep 29 02:23:27 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 02:23:27 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Wikipedia policy change, list might care about In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 11:57 PM, Jean Flamelle wrote: > Welp, I got censored: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)&oldid=861636670#Wikipedia,_a_quatertiary_source. now you know. From calmstorm at posteo.de Sat Sep 29 03:27:23 2018 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 22:27:23 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Wikipedia policy change, list might care about In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 09/28/2018 09:23 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 11:57 PM, Jean Flamelle wrote: > >> Welp, I got censored: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)&oldid=861636670#Wikipedia,_a_quatertiary_source. > now you know. Yeah... I thought wikipedia had some decency until they started talking shit about you/your project. so awful. > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Sep 29 03:38:21 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 03:38:21 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Wikipedia policy change, list might care about In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 3:27 AM, zap wrote: > On 09/28/2018 09:23 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 11:57 PM, Jean Flamelle wrote: >> >>> Welp, I got censored: >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)&oldid=861636670#Wikipedia,_a_quatertiary_source. >> now you know. > Yeah... I thought wikipedia had some decency until they started talking > shit about you/your project. there's a few issues: firstly, anyone who stands up to them is automatically targetted. secondly: the people who set themselves up as admins completely ignore the rule "assume good intent of editors". and thirdly, they have a *really* serious problem in the form of one of the long-standing contributors, JZGuy or someone, whose behaviour is so unbelievably outrageous and hypocritical that it's actually caught the attention of someone who is documenting it in the form of a book. absolutely nobody dares criticise him as they don't want to end up being the target of revenge that they *know* he will enact, as they've witnessed him doing it multiple times over the years. if you're interested to do so, take a look here http://libre-riscv.org/charter/ - and "apply" that to wikipedia. you'll see that there are multiple systemic law violations. jean's censorship (even after the apology) is a clear violation of at least three systemic laws. l. From doark at mail.com Sat Sep 29 16:01:00 2018 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 11:01:00 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Wikipedia policy change, list might care about In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180929110100.6f573505@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 02:23:27 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 11:57 PM, Jean Flamelle > wrote: > > > Welp, I got censored: > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)&oldid=861636670#Wikipedia,_a_quatertiary_source. > > now you know. > "Wikipedia, a quatertiary source." does not appear to mention you or anything about you, directly or indirectly, what are you talking about? As for the proposal itself, I've read many articles in Wikipedia that cite sources that are not just bad, but plain wrong. Not to mention some really badly written Wikipedia articles. A few tech ones appear to be purposefully deceptive, for example, the one on Linux ARM GPU support. Thanks!