From lkcl at lkcl.net  Fri Oct  5 05:13:47 2018
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 05:13:47 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] apple "security" prevents and prohibits repair...
Message-ID: <CAPweEDyefghzo-vibrWHBMgEfhpgJ1VQRh6ckw9U0UM6n-Ux+g@mail.gmail.com>

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/18/10/05/0142226/apples-new-proprietary-software-locks-kill-independent-repair-on-new-macbook-pros#comments

*sigh* and tim cook bless him is talking about privacy... it's as if
noone listens to him, even inside apple itself...


From jbn at forestfield.org  Fri Oct  5 08:28:37 2018
From: jbn at forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 02:28:37 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] apple "security" prevents and prohibits repair...
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDyefghzo-vibrWHBMgEfhpgJ1VQRh6ckw9U0UM6n-Ux+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDyefghzo-vibrWHBMgEfhpgJ1VQRh6ckw9U0UM6n-Ux+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4cae8ca4-8441-79c6-b918-c20a5d17a408@forestfield.org>

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> *sigh* and tim cook bless him is talking about privacy... it's as if
> noone listens to him, even inside apple itself...

I think I may have missed a sarcastic note there: Do you actually believe 
that Tim Cook cares about Apple user's privacy? It's like reading 
https://gizmodo.com/234448/steve-jobs-on-drm-it-must-die on Steve Jobs 
saying that DRM "must die!" and believing Jobs was against DRM.

If Apple cared about their users' privacy they wouldn't distribute 
proprietary software. Perhaps that's why Cook isn't worth listening to; 
whatever his words suggest, Apple's choices speak louder.

Similarly talking against DRM for music is not only all-too-light criticism 
(music only?) but a foregone conclusion well before Jobs said anything as 
MP3s were so popular when Jobs "advised the music industry to give up on 
DRM" he knew he couldn't sell a music player that didn't support MP3s. 
Apple was apparently quite fine with DRM on other things, so what Gizmodo 
calls an "anti-DRM Manifesto" is simultaneously far too strong a language 
to describe Jobs' language and too weak to give Jobs or Apple much credit.

But perhaps I missed the sarcasm entirely.


From sucotronic at gmail.com  Fri Oct  5 08:50:14 2018
From: sucotronic at gmail.com (sucotronic at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 09:50:14 +0200
Subject: [Arm-netbook] apple "security" prevents and prohibits repair...
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDyefghzo-vibrWHBMgEfhpgJ1VQRh6ckw9U0UM6n-Ux+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDyefghzo-vibrWHBMgEfhpgJ1VQRh6ckw9U0UM6n-Ux+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87B02CBA-1BC4-42FC-9B3B-3C73C4D1ED31@gmail.com>

Just wait to the next video of this guy…. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w

> On 5 Oct 2018, at 06:13, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> 
> https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/18/10/05/0142226/apples-new-proprietary-software-locks-kill-independent-repair-on-new-macbook-pros#comments
> 
> *sigh* and tim cook bless him is talking about privacy... it's as if
> noone listens to him, even inside apple itself...
> 
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk



From paul at boddie.org.uk  Tue Oct  9 15:41:53 2018
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2018 16:41:53 +0200
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Schedule Updates?
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzY9kgqZtLnzavM=YevbWoHFW+WR1K4-MkC-rokPctxbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2965924.OxDjdg38Ux@jeremy>
	<CAPweEDzY9kgqZtLnzavM=YevbWoHFW+WR1K4-MkC-rokPctxbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2163441.0NFHR8DQvG@jeremy>

On Wednesday 12. September 2018 11.13.51 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> 
> hiya paul, thanks for the prompting: the latest update i wrote just
> yesterday, and it doesn't pull any punches.  i've had to take contract
> work and it's a 100% full-time distraction.  the DRAM's fine, new
> 2.7.5 samples work great (or maybe it's 2.7.6 i can't even remember).
> i'm in europe: i have absolutely no equipment here.
> 
> i have to arrange to get mike a laptop with a remote-accessible
> tunnel, so i can copy OSes to it etc.  that's going to take time.

Sorry for the delay in acknowledging your reply to my earlier message! I guess 
that Crowd Supply still have your update in the queue, unless the update was 
published elsewhere and has nothing to do with them. In any case, I hope you 
are managing to juggle your different projects satisfactorily and will be able 
to work more closely with Mike again in not too long.

Whilst perusing the Crowd Supply site, I saw this interesting news:

"Mouser acquires Crowd Supply"
https://blog.crowdsupply.com/2018/10/03/crowd-supply-has-been-acquired/

I didn't realise that Mouser already carried Crowd Supply products, but I 
guess it increases their reach.

Paul


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Tue Oct  9 15:45:52 2018
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 15:45:52 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Schedule Updates?
In-Reply-To: <2163441.0NFHR8DQvG@jeremy>
References: <2965924.OxDjdg38Ux@jeremy>
	<CAPweEDzY9kgqZtLnzavM=YevbWoHFW+WR1K4-MkC-rokPctxbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<2163441.0NFHR8DQvG@jeremy>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwVq+G+GNMPMJmeKnBCo_Z81v6+FDtkFsyaoUf=q3M4bg@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 3:42 PM Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 12. September 2018 11.13.51 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> >
> > hiya paul, thanks for the prompting: the latest update i wrote just
> > yesterday, and it doesn't pull any punches.  i've had to take contract
> > work and it's a 100% full-time distraction.  the DRAM's fine, new
> > 2.7.5 samples work great (or maybe it's 2.7.6 i can't even remember).
> > i'm in europe: i have absolutely no equipment here.
> >
> > i have to arrange to get mike a laptop with a remote-accessible
> > tunnel, so i can copy OSes to it etc.  that's going to take time.
>
> Sorry for the delay in acknowledging your reply to my earlier message! I guess
> that Crowd Supply still have your update in the queue,

 yep... they're so busy

>  unless the update was
> published elsewhere and has nothing to do with them. In any case, I hope you
> are managing to juggle your different projects satisfactorily and will be able
> to work more closely with Mike again in not too long.

 getting there...

> Whilst perusing the Crowd Supply site, I saw this interesting news:
>
> "Mouser acquires Crowd Supply"
> https://blog.crowdsupply.com/2018/10/03/crowd-supply-has-been-acquired/

 cool!

> I didn't realise that Mouser already carried Crowd Supply products, but I
> guess it increases their reach.

 yeah neither did i.  huh. ok so that could solve the issue of trump
being a moron by trying to get into a pissing contest with china over
trade....

l.


From luke.leighton at gmail.com  Sun Oct 14 02:34:01 2018
From: luke.leighton at gmail.com (lkcl)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 02:34:01 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] USB-C is used more and more...
In-Reply-To: <153946994787.22806.18017524115628757852.repoze.sendmail@cosmo>
References: <153946994787.22806.18017524115628757852.repoze.sendmail@cosmo>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDzwd+2OYx=WvCCy9p5Fe60RxhdkNoLv6EsF8_BTNoxZLw@mail.gmail.com>

[cc'ing arm-netbooks as this question is best answered there, so that
other people benefit from it]

On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 11:32 PM Crowd Supply <orders at crowdsupply.com> wrote:
>
> bonzify at airmail.cc submitted a question about your project, "Earth-friendly
> EOMA68 Computing Devices":
>
> USB-C is used more and more often in a day to day basis.Thunderbolt-3, HDMI
> ports and new tecnologies are frequently being used more often in the
> mainstream market. USB C can intagrate these technologies and also repace the
> charging port entirely. How come you didn't use USB C for the EOMA68?

 there is no such thing as a physical item named "an EOMA68", as it is
a standard.  the *option* to use USB-3 *is* actually on the EOMA68
standard.  USB C is NOT part of the EOMA68 standard, because it would
be inappropriate to do so.

 HOWEVER.

 implementors of base boards are ENTIRELY AT LIBERTY to add a USB C
socket on the base board.

 AND

 implementors of Cards are ENTIRELY AT LIBERTY to add a USB C socket
on the user-facing end of the Card.

 the reason why USB C was not included in the EOMA68-A20 - the first
in a SERIES of Cards is: massive redesign costs would be required to
do so.  if you have around USD $20,000 spare, anywhere, i am happy to
do another SoC Card, one that uses a PMIC that supports USB-C.

l.


From laserhawk64 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 14 02:39:20 2018
From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 21:39:20 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] USB-C is used more and more...
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzwd+2OYx=WvCCy9p5Fe60RxhdkNoLv6EsF8_BTNoxZLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <153946994787.22806.18017524115628757852.repoze.sendmail@cosmo>
	<CAPweEDzwd+2OYx=WvCCy9p5Fe60RxhdkNoLv6EsF8_BTNoxZLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+kEFNJQw3N4k4TeVyQ04o0oFbQa1sQB5D2jumHMDcaxfB-5rQ@mail.gmail.com>

I personally think there was nothing wrong with USB-A/B/mini-B. I put up
with USB Micro. I do *not* put up with USB-C. USB-C, in my not-so-humble
opinion (IMNSHO) is missing three letters off the end that, together, rhyme
with "map"...

No C for me.

From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sun Oct 14 03:47:56 2018
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 03:47:56 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] USB-C is used more and more...
In-Reply-To: <CA+kEFNJQw3N4k4TeVyQ04o0oFbQa1sQB5D2jumHMDcaxfB-5rQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <153946994787.22806.18017524115628757852.repoze.sendmail@cosmo>
	<CAPweEDzwd+2OYx=WvCCy9p5Fe60RxhdkNoLv6EsF8_BTNoxZLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+kEFNJQw3N4k4TeVyQ04o0oFbQa1sQB5D2jumHMDcaxfB-5rQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwf3Ds25XQdWLSgjHZW+v7rCT9Z2OFu5rQsgn5PZPFetA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 2:39 AM Christopher Havel <laserhawk64 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I personally think there was nothing wrong with USB-A/B/mini-B. I put up
> with USB Micro.

 they're fine for 0.5A, with some devices going up to 1.5 or even 2.0A
via various "schemes".

> I do *not* put up with USB-C. USB-C, in my not-so-humble
> opinion (IMNSHO) is missing three letters off the end that, together, rhyme
> with "map"...
>
> No C for me.

 :)


From vkontogpls at gmail.com  Sun Oct 14 10:36:04 2018
From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 12:36:04 +0300
Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] USB-C is used more and more...
In-Reply-To: <CA+kEFNJQw3N4k4TeVyQ04o0oFbQa1sQB5D2jumHMDcaxfB-5rQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <153946994787.22806.18017524115628757852.repoze.sendmail@cosmo>
	<CAPweEDzwd+2OYx=WvCCy9p5Fe60RxhdkNoLv6EsF8_BTNoxZLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+kEFNJQw3N4k4TeVyQ04o0oFbQa1sQB5D2jumHMDcaxfB-5rQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+yRhotNbW2MvsF4wq6GiWzqGAJ980sp8ULt1YKr1+_oKEtPcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018, 04:41 Christopher Havel <laserhawk64 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I personally think there was nothing wrong with USB-A/B/mini-B. I put up
> with USB Micro. I do *not* put up with USB-C. USB-C, in my not-so-humble
> opinion (IMNSHO) is missing three letters off the end that, together, rhyme
> with "map"...
>
> No C for me.
>

What? Why? I just got yesterday my first USB c device and it's much more
convenient.

>

From calmstorm at posteo.de  Mon Oct 15 02:42:06 2018
From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 21:42:06 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] USB-C is used more and more...
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwf3Ds25XQdWLSgjHZW+v7rCT9Z2OFu5rQsgn5PZPFetA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <153946994787.22806.18017524115628757852.repoze.sendmail@cosmo>
	<CAPweEDzwd+2OYx=WvCCy9p5Fe60RxhdkNoLv6EsF8_BTNoxZLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+kEFNJQw3N4k4TeVyQ04o0oFbQa1sQB5D2jumHMDcaxfB-5rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDwf3Ds25XQdWLSgjHZW+v7rCT9Z2OFu5rQsgn5PZPFetA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <117bfa8e-e985-a441-c8a3-03046ca7a27f@posteo.de>


>> I do *not* put up with USB-C. USB-C, in my not-so-humble
>> opinion (IMNSHO) is missing three letters off the end that, together, rhyme
>> with "map"...
>>
>> No C for me.
>  :)
What is Usb-C? just wondering?
>
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk



From laserhawk64 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 15 02:58:50 2018
From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 21:58:50 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] USB-C is used more and more...
In-Reply-To: <117bfa8e-e985-a441-c8a3-03046ca7a27f@posteo.de>
References: <153946994787.22806.18017524115628757852.repoze.sendmail@cosmo>
	<CAPweEDzwd+2OYx=WvCCy9p5Fe60RxhdkNoLv6EsF8_BTNoxZLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+kEFNJQw3N4k4TeVyQ04o0oFbQa1sQB5D2jumHMDcaxfB-5rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDwf3Ds25XQdWLSgjHZW+v7rCT9Z2OFu5rQsgn5PZPFetA@mail.gmail.com>
	<117bfa8e-e985-a441-c8a3-03046ca7a27f@posteo.de>
Message-ID: <CA+kEFNJHV=5pcwxPoDc+Mnbv+hUTSFW2ybZLdnQh300_dcgH6g@mail.gmail.com>

Quick phone top-post, sorry Luke.

Zap, I will presume for the moment that you have been living under a large
roundish lump of granite for the past year-and-a-half-plus (or perhaps in a
small cave in a particularly remote area) and that Creepy Uncle Google, for
whatever reason, is not working for you.

There is a protocol and a connector at work here. USB 3.1 would be the
protocol, theoretically even faster (and otherwise more capable) than
USB3.0. USB-C is the associated connector, and the two are inextricably
linked - AFAIK, one can *only* use the USB3.1 protocol over a rwo-connector
cable that has at least one end terminated in a USB-C connector.

USB-C is a rectangular-ish connector - its ends are circular but the area
in between is flat so it's not an oval shape. Not sure what the technical
term is - high school geometry was a long time ago indeed. At any rate, the
connector is a little larger than USB Micro. It contains a ridiculous
number of pins for its size... 19 IIRC, but that may be me getting confused
with HDMI and MiniHDMI...

The other thing about the connector is that it's reversible. You can plug
it in upside-down and it will match merrily along as if nothing was
different.

However, it is also yet another freakin' USB connector to keep track of and
require adapters for, and as such, it's completely redundant and
unnecessary. Everyone on earth has already done the USB-A
triple-plug-to-fit dance enough times to be used to it. I have no use for a
standard whose only meaningful advantage is one I don't care about and
whose actual effect is that I need to buy more effing adapters just to make
my stuff work the way it should OOTB.

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018, 9:42 PM zap <calmstorm at posteo.de> wrote:

>
> >> I do *not* put up with USB-C. USB-C, in my not-so-humble
> >> opinion (IMNSHO) is missing three letters off the end that, together,
> rhyme
> >> with "map"...
> >>
> >> No C for me.
> >  :)
> What is Usb-C? just wondering?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk

From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me  Mon Oct 15 03:23:04 2018
From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 03:23:04 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] USB-C is used more and more...
In-Reply-To: <CA+kEFNJHV=5pcwxPoDc+Mnbv+hUTSFW2ybZLdnQh300_dcgH6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <153946994787.22806.18017524115628757852.repoze.sendmail@cosmo>
	<CAPweEDzwd+2OYx=WvCCy9p5Fe60RxhdkNoLv6EsF8_BTNoxZLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+kEFNJQw3N4k4TeVyQ04o0oFbQa1sQB5D2jumHMDcaxfB-5rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDwf3Ds25XQdWLSgjHZW+v7rCT9Z2OFu5rQsgn5PZPFetA@mail.gmail.com>
	<117bfa8e-e985-a441-c8a3-03046ca7a27f@posteo.de>
	<CA+kEFNJHV=5pcwxPoDc+Mnbv+hUTSFW2ybZLdnQh300_dcgH6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ebe1303-65b9-6639-43ca-627bcc2e356a@aross.me>

On 15/10/18 02:58, Christopher Havel wrote:
> Quick phone top-post, sorry Luke.
ya know, what i do is, i select all then delete by staring to write a
reply without quoting previous posts ;)

To select all, on android: "tap and hold, then tap select all button"

The android email app, K9mail has a X button near quoted text when
replying. taping the X button removes quoted msg.

Each email seams to have a id so its referenced to which email your
replying to. so ya don’t need to quote text for people to know what your
replying too because if people use the threaded email list view. they
will see which email in a thread your one was a reply too :)

Sorry if ya already knew, thought if ya or someone didn’t it might help :).


From laserhawk64 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 15 03:25:37 2018
From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 22:25:37 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] USB-C is used more and more...
In-Reply-To: <9ebe1303-65b9-6639-43ca-627bcc2e356a@aross.me>
References: <153946994787.22806.18017524115628757852.repoze.sendmail@cosmo>
	<CAPweEDzwd+2OYx=WvCCy9p5Fe60RxhdkNoLv6EsF8_BTNoxZLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+kEFNJQw3N4k4TeVyQ04o0oFbQa1sQB5D2jumHMDcaxfB-5rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDwf3Ds25XQdWLSgjHZW+v7rCT9Z2OFu5rQsgn5PZPFetA@mail.gmail.com>
	<117bfa8e-e985-a441-c8a3-03046ca7a27f@posteo.de>
	<CA+kEFNJHV=5pcwxPoDc+Mnbv+hUTSFW2ybZLdnQh300_dcgH6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<9ebe1303-65b9-6639-43ca-627bcc2e356a@aross.me>
Message-ID: <CA+kEFNLTXipdFTD7mt1UfOA5rxtR_-TVfWyozW+Y_pO3tg6HZA@mail.gmail.com>

Oh nice. I didn't know I could do that *blush*

I'll have to remember that. Thanks, man!

From onpon4 at riseup.net  Mon Oct 15 05:08:20 2018
From: onpon4 at riseup.net (Julie Marchant)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 00:08:20 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] USB-C is used more and more...
In-Reply-To: <CA+kEFNJHV=5pcwxPoDc+Mnbv+hUTSFW2ybZLdnQh300_dcgH6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <153946994787.22806.18017524115628757852.repoze.sendmail@cosmo>
	<CAPweEDzwd+2OYx=WvCCy9p5Fe60RxhdkNoLv6EsF8_BTNoxZLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+kEFNJQw3N4k4TeVyQ04o0oFbQa1sQB5D2jumHMDcaxfB-5rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDwf3Ds25XQdWLSgjHZW+v7rCT9Z2OFu5rQsgn5PZPFetA@mail.gmail.com>
	<117bfa8e-e985-a441-c8a3-03046ca7a27f@posteo.de>
	<CA+kEFNJHV=5pcwxPoDc+Mnbv+hUTSFW2ybZLdnQh300_dcgH6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <233cf3ef-147a-e0cd-ffec-e6780ed7b874@riseup.net>

On 10/14/2018 09:58 PM, Christopher Havel wrote:
> Quick phone top-post, sorry Luke.
> 
> Zap, I will presume for the moment that you have been living under a large
> roundish lump of granite for the past year-and-a-half-plus (or perhaps in a
> small cave in a particularly remote area) and that Creepy Uncle Google, for
> whatever reason, is not working for you.
> 
> There is a protocol and a connector at work here. USB 3.1 would be the
> protocol, theoretically even faster (and otherwise more capable) than
> USB3.0. USB-C is the associated connector, and the two are inextricably
> linked - AFAIK, one can *only* use the USB3.1 protocol over a rwo-connector
> cable that has at least one end terminated in a USB-C connector.
> 
> USB-C is a rectangular-ish connector - its ends are circular but the area
> in between is flat so it's not an oval shape. Not sure what the technical
> term is - high school geometry was a long time ago indeed. At any rate, the
> connector is a little larger than USB Micro. It contains a ridiculous
> number of pins for its size... 19 IIRC, but that may be me getting confused
> with HDMI and MiniHDMI...
> 
> The other thing about the connector is that it's reversible. You can plug
> it in upside-down and it will match merrily along as if nothing was
> different.
> 
> However, it is also yet another freakin' USB connector to keep track of and
> require adapters for, and as such, it's completely redundant and
> unnecessary. Everyone on earth has already done the USB-A
> triple-plug-to-fit dance enough times to be used to it. I have no use for a
> standard whose only meaningful advantage is one I don't care about and
> whose actual effect is that I need to buy more effing adapters just to make
> my stuff work the way it should OOTB.

My understanding is that USB-C is supposed to phase out all USB-A and
USB-B connectors eventually so that there's only one type of USB plug.
I'm pretty sure it's not required for USB 3.1. You may be confusing USB
3.1 as a whole with certain aspects of it that require USB-C (basically
higher transfer speeds than normal USB 3.1, if I'm understanding correctly).

To be fair, USB-C does bring this Xkcd comic to mind:

https://xkcd.com/927/

But one noteworthy distinction is that the standards body behind USB-C
is intending to replace their own standards, not others' standards
(though it might have the nice side-effect of finally convincing Apple
to switch to USB rather than insisting on its proprietary "Lightning"
nonsense).

I suppose time will tell, though.

-- 
Julie Marchant
http://onpon4.github.io

Encrypt your emails with GnuPG:
https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org


From samhuntress at gmail.com  Mon Oct 15 18:03:46 2018
From: samhuntress at gmail.com (Sam Huntress)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 13:03:46 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] USB-C is used more and more...
In-Reply-To: <233cf3ef-147a-e0cd-ffec-e6780ed7b874@riseup.net>
References: <153946994787.22806.18017524115628757852.repoze.sendmail@cosmo>
	<CAPweEDzwd+2OYx=WvCCy9p5Fe60RxhdkNoLv6EsF8_BTNoxZLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+kEFNJQw3N4k4TeVyQ04o0oFbQa1sQB5D2jumHMDcaxfB-5rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDwf3Ds25XQdWLSgjHZW+v7rCT9Z2OFu5rQsgn5PZPFetA@mail.gmail.com>
	<117bfa8e-e985-a441-c8a3-03046ca7a27f@posteo.de>
	<CA+kEFNJHV=5pcwxPoDc+Mnbv+hUTSFW2ybZLdnQh300_dcgH6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<233cf3ef-147a-e0cd-ffec-e6780ed7b874@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <CANYNf9v795Hb0JbVHawrZ+Yk0ZAVDNXgq+ZQfBbD0XoZvsrLWg@mail.gmail.com>

A quick note on the USB-A "rotate 3 times to insert" bit: If the device and
cable are actually compliant with the standard then there is no guessing or
flipping. The USB trident logo will be on the visible side of the cable
when it is inserted. This doesn't help for vertically oriented USB-A
connections where you could reasonably be viewing from either side but on
your laptop it should always go in first try when standard compliant
devices are used correctly.

From laserhawk64 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 15 18:17:31 2018
From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 13:17:31 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] USB-C is used more and more...
In-Reply-To: <CANYNf9v795Hb0JbVHawrZ+Yk0ZAVDNXgq+ZQfBbD0XoZvsrLWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <153946994787.22806.18017524115628757852.repoze.sendmail@cosmo>
	<CAPweEDzwd+2OYx=WvCCy9p5Fe60RxhdkNoLv6EsF8_BTNoxZLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+kEFNJQw3N4k4TeVyQ04o0oFbQa1sQB5D2jumHMDcaxfB-5rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDwf3Ds25XQdWLSgjHZW+v7rCT9Z2OFu5rQsgn5PZPFetA@mail.gmail.com>
	<117bfa8e-e985-a441-c8a3-03046ca7a27f@posteo.de>
	<CA+kEFNJHV=5pcwxPoDc+Mnbv+hUTSFW2ybZLdnQh300_dcgH6g@mail.gmail.com>
	<233cf3ef-147a-e0cd-ffec-e6780ed7b874@riseup.net>
	<CANYNf9v795Hb0JbVHawrZ+Yk0ZAVDNXgq+ZQfBbD0XoZvsrLWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+kEFN+yu4UqYHibBRvZEAy7BtAYM+uQY=6dJigW2OrppgizCQ@mail.gmail.com>

I never knew that - thanks!

From doark at mail.com  Wed Oct 17 03:39:45 2018
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 22:39:45 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
	promoting lima?
Message-ID: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

Are they even talking about lima?
Or are they giving us the wool-over-eyes treatment?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/librecomputer/la-frite-open-source-fries

Searching....

Nope, I can't find anything for or against lima.

Can anyone else find out?

I'm going to try and ask them directly, but evidence would be better.

Thanks!


From doark at mail.com  Wed Oct 17 03:45:20 2018
From: doark at mail.com (doark at mail.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 22:45:20 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
	promoting lima?
Message-ID: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

<Quote name=libre.computer>

$1,000,000 Goal Reward: Reverse Engineering and Upstreaming a Open Source
Mali Utgard 

The Mali-450 GPU currently uses a blob for X11/Wayland/DRM. This is less
than ideal and it is one of the sticking points in terms of open source
facing ARM adoption on multiple platforms. If we reach this amount, we
commit the necessary resources to upstream Mali Utgard GPU family support
in the Linux kernel and Mesa. This effort will take approximately a year.

We will announce more stretch goals as we move farther along the campaign.

</Quote>

Yes!
But it is a BIG goal.

Thanks!


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Wed Oct 17 08:43:29 2018
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:43:29 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>

USD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to 100%
completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a smaller
geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU would be damn
good).

l.

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 3:45 AM <doark at mail.com> wrote:
>
> <Quote name=libre.computer>
>
> $1,000,000 Goal Reward: Reverse Engineering and Upstreaming a Open Source
> Mali Utgard
>
> The Mali-450 GPU currently uses a blob for X11/Wayland/DRM. This is less
> than ideal and it is one of the sticking points in terms of open source
> facing ARM adoption on multiple platforms. If we reach this amount, we
> commit the necessary resources to upstream Mali Utgard GPU family support
> in the Linux kernel and Mesa. This effort will take approximately a year.
>
> We will announce more stretch goals as we move farther along the campaign.
>
> </Quote>
>
> Yes!
> But it is a BIG goal.
>
> Thanks!
>
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk


From adam at vany.ca  Wed Oct 17 08:49:05 2018
From: adam at vany.ca (Adam Van Ymeren)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:49:05 +0900
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
	promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6236EC47-CEB9-4C57-8C1B-1972360B382C@vany.ca>



On October 17, 2018 4:43:29 PM GMT+09:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
>USD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to 100%
>completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a smaller
>geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU would be damn
>good).
>
>l.

That would be a way better use of $1 million USD IMO.  Would much rather have an open GPU than constantly be playing catchup reversing proprietary GPUs.


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Wed Oct 17 09:04:54 2018
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 09:04:54 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <6236EC47-CEB9-4C57-8C1B-1972360B382C@vany.ca>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6236EC47-CEB9-4C57-8C1B-1972360B382C@vany.ca>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDzG1MnfAUHK8GDGzV3w2O7rRfi_AjZ660qoqVzqFb=JAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 8:49 AM Adam Van Ymeren <adam at vany.ca> wrote:

> On October 17, 2018 4:43:29 PM GMT+09:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> >USD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to 100%
> >completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a smaller
> >geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU would be damn
> >good).
> >
> >l.
>
> That would be a way better use of $1 million USD IMO.  Would much rather
> have an open GPU than constantly be playing catchup reversing proprietary GPUs.

 some people would say it's better for users to at least have
something.  others would say that after reverse-engineering is
completed, ODMs are likely (eventually) to actually distribute the
reverse-engineered drivers.

 ARM of course is quite likely to continue to release proprietary
drivers, with newer proprietary versions of MALI never being
compatible, thus always ensuring that end-users are left trapped.

l.


From doark at mail.com  Wed Oct 17 14:40:50 2018
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 09:40:50 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzG1MnfAUHK8GDGzV3w2O7rRfi_AjZ660qoqVzqFb=JAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6236EC47-CEB9-4C57-8C1B-1972360B382C@vany.ca>
	<CAPweEDzG1MnfAUHK8GDGzV3w2O7rRfi_AjZ660qoqVzqFb=JAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20181017094050.265cc220@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 09:04:54 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 8:49 AM Adam Van Ymeren <adam at vany.ca> wrote:
> 
> > On October 17, 2018 4:43:29 PM GMT+09:00, Luke Kenneth Casson
> > Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:  
> > >USD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to 100%
> > >completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a smaller
> > >geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU would be damn
> > >good).
> > >
> > >l.  
> >
> > That would be a way better use of $1 million USD IMO.  Would much
> > rather have an open GPU than constantly be playing catchup reversing
> > proprietary GPUs.  

Ya, that's what I was thinking...

>  some people would say it's better for users to at least have
> something.  others would say that after reverse-engineering is
> completed, ODMs are likely (eventually) to actually distribute the
> reverse-engineered drivers.

Again, my line of reasoning.

>  ARM of course is quite likely to continue to release proprietary
> drivers, with newer proprietary versions of MALI never being
> compatible, thus always ensuring that end-users are left trapped.
> 
> l.
>

We'll never know till we try :) I'm talking green branch and such.

Sincerely,
David



From doark at mail.com  Wed Oct 17 14:58:24 2018
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 09:58:24 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:43:29 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:

> USD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to 100%
> completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a smaller
> geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU would be damn
> good).
> 
> l.

Wait a sec! Last year you said:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 16:43:07 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:27 PM,  <ronwirring at safe-mail.net> wrote:
> > Best knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be
> > reverse engineered. What in regard of the latest mali gpus?
> > If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered?  
> 
>  yes.  about $150k would do it.   but the question is, really: what
> would happen if you did?  and, what else could you do with the same
> money?
> 
>  well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own libre
> processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D graphics
> *without* paying anyone a cent.  any company tries to claim patent
> royalties, all that happens is a search is made on their "claims", for
> anything similar that has prior art.
> 
>  if it's another company, guess what?  we notify that other company
> and watch the fireworks...
> 
> l.

1M - 150k = 750K!!!
Therefore you're tripling your price estimate on us!

Seriously, when I get BIG money (which will be a while), I'm planning on
calling you on this one and I don't want a tripled price tag.

Where is the extra 750K going to?

Thanks!


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Wed Oct 17 16:30:17 2018
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:30:17 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 2:58 PM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:43:29 +0100
> Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
>
> > USD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to 100%
> > completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a smaller
> > geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU would be damn
> > good).
> >
> > l.
>
> Wait a sec! Last year you said:
>
> On Mon, 8 May 2017 16:43:07 +0100
> Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:27 PM,  <ronwirring at safe-mail.net> wrote:
> > > Best knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be
> > > reverse engineered. What in regard of the latest mali gpus?
> > > If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered?
> >
> >  yes.  about $150k would do it.   but the question is, really: what
> > would happen if you did?  and, what else could you do with the same
> > money?
> >
> >  well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own libre
> > processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D graphics
> > *without* paying anyone a cent.  any company tries to claim patent
> > royalties, all that happens is a search is made on their "claims", for
> > anything similar that has prior art.
> >
> >  if it's another company, guess what?  we notify that other company
> > and watch the fireworks...
> >
> > l.
>
> 1M - 150k = 750K!!!
> Therefore you're tripling your price estimate on us!

 it depends on what you take into account.  if someone else pays the
NREs to the foundry, i.e. a university agrees to collaborate and is
offered access to a foundry for either free or at reduced rates,
$250k-$500k comes off that amount, straight away.

 if only wanting to reach a target of say producing the design files
(HDL), that's a different target entirely as well, and if someone else
can take over at that point (and make the actual money selling
product), then that's one way to ensure that the goal's reached [but
not guarantee financial benefit from it].

 so it was a throwaway comment written in about 30 seconds with no
strict analysis done.  last time i collaborated with an associate to
come up with a proper figure it was around USD $5m (for a client) and
it took us around five days to put that together.

 however that particular deal excluded certain resources and had
specific requirements.

> Seriously, when I get BIG money (which will be a while),

 cool

> I'm planning on calling you on this one

 excellent.  well, when that happens, let's talk (on or off list), you
let me know what you can raise and i'll put the time in - which will
be several days not a few moments - to work out what can be done, and
what side-deals will be needed, if necessary.

l.


From paul at boddie.org.uk  Wed Oct 17 17:28:38 2018
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:28:38 +0200
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
	promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <11938562.arhK5adSbm@jeremy>

On Wednesday 17. October 2018 16.30.17 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> 
>  it depends on what you take into account.  if someone else pays the
> NREs to the foundry, i.e. a university agrees to collaborate and is
> offered access to a foundry for either free or at reduced rates,
> $250k-$500k comes off that amount, straight away.

Some interesting perspectives on this can be read about here:

https://chips4makers.io/blog/startup-costs-and-low-volume-manufacturing.html

The author is currently running a campaign on Crowd Supply:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/chips4makers/retro-uc

Maybe you might have spoken to the people involved, either at FOSDEM or via 
Crowd Supply, but I suppose there might be some potential for collaboration or 
discussion.

The campaign itself won't get funded, it would seem, but like various others 
that went the same way, this is more a consequence of a number of different 
factors rather than it being a statement on the merits of making genuinely 
free and open silicon. FPGAs and the implemented CPUs are widely available and 
already in use amongst the target audiences, for instance.

However, pursuing such a campaign with a product that really needs to be done 
with "proper" silicon - needing higher frequencies and power/performance 
benefits, perhaps - might get more support, albeit from not quite the same 
audiences as the ones targeted in this campaign.

Paul

P.S. Still no progress from Crowd Supply on the latest update?


From doark at mail.com  Thu Oct 18 00:44:05 2018
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 19:44:05 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20181017194405.2ca3e269@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:30:17 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
> 
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 2:58 PM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:43:29 +0100
> > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> >  
> > > USD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to 100%
> > > completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a smaller
> > > geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU would be damn
> > > good).
> > >
> > > l.  
> >
> > Wait a sec! Last year you said:
> >
> > On Mon, 8 May 2017 16:43:07 +0100
> > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:  
> > > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:27 PM,  <ronwirring at safe-mail.net> wrote:  
> > > > Best knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be
> > > > reverse engineered. What in regard of the latest mali gpus?
> > > > If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered?  
> > >
> > >  yes.  about $150k would do it.   but the question is, really: what
> > > would happen if you did?  and, what else could you do with the same
> > > money?
> > >
> > >  well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own
> > > libre processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D graphics
> > > *without* paying anyone a cent.  any company tries to claim patent
> > > royalties, all that happens is a search is made on their "claims",
> > > for anything similar that has prior art.
> > >
> > >  if it's another company, guess what?  we notify that other company
> > > and watch the fireworks...
> > >
> > > l.  
> >
> > 1M - 150k = 750K!!!
> > Therefore you're tripling your price estimate on us!  
> 
>  it depends on what you take into account.  if someone else pays the
> NREs to the foundry, i.e. a university agrees to collaborate and is
> offered access to a foundry for either free or at reduced rates,
> $250k-$500k comes off that amount, straight away.

My statement was based on: 1M - (3 x 150K == 450K [for the HDL]) = 550K
for the silicon, and that's huge! What is the cost here? Silicon as an
element is inexpensive and even 32nm foundries should have their HW paid
for by now. It's been what? 8 years since 32nm and the half node, 28nm
started? And the big buyers (AMD, Intel, Nvidia) were on it for 3+ years.

It's not like an OSH project can purchase a license for closed source
HW something-or-another libraries, which I've read as being the main
expense from anandtech (No, I'm not in the field).

>  if only wanting to reach a target of say producing the design files
> (HDL), that's a different target entirely as well, and if someone else
> can take over at that point (and make the actual money selling
> product), then that's one way to ensure that the goal's reached [but
> not guarantee financial benefit from it].

I assumed at the time, you were talking HDL and with an FPGA for
hardware backing with basic OpenGL, OpenCL, and 2D driver. No video
encode/decode HW or Vulkan driver. Not mass produced, just a few
prototypes. At about the same speed as a good Intel GPU, say a high end
HD630 series. If you have a more concrete or different idea I'd be glad
to hear it.

> so it was a throwaway comment written in about 30 seconds with no
> strict analysis done.

Really? You sounded so serious! Contrary to popular belief, sound does
travel across the Internet, it's just that no body has managed to tie the
Internet into the speakers yet. ;-)

> last time i collaborated with an associate to
> come up with a proper figure it was around USD $5m (for a client) and
> it took us around five days to put that together. however that
> particular deal excluded certain resources and had specific
> requirements.

:(
I was aiming for 2M minimum. And that is BIG to me.

> > Seriously, when I get BIG money (which will be a while),  
> 
>  cool

Let me be frank, luke, I am under no delusions. No lottery. No gambling.
No get rich quick schemes. But it will take time, as in ~5 years.
Therefore, be excited about the OSH, not the money which may or may never
be there.

I don't always agree with you, but what you write I do pay attention to.
And I have a terrible tendency of believing you. :) I had assumed that
some company would opensource or support the OSS Mali drivers,
eventually. Google has android running off of Mali, Samsung and LG have
Smart TVs running off of Mali, the list goes on...
But when you wrote about creating an OSH GPU yourself I realized that
is spite of every Mali customer, Google et. al. would not support
opensourcing anything if they could help it. Chromium's binary blob
problems are even further proof.
This became painfully clear when RISC-V came out. I expected *at least*
the cache to be OSH... :CRY:

I decided that if I could, it was up to me to pull in the funds for OSH,
and "I think I can"(TM).

> > I'm planning on calling you on this one  
> 
>  excellent.  well, when that happens, let's talk (on or off list), you
> let me know what you can raise and i'll put the time in - which will
> be several days not a few moments - to work out what can be done, and
> what side-deals will be needed, if necessary.
> 
> l.
> 

I will tell you, but keep in mind that there are other OSH products to be
developed that I have my eyes on.

Finally, I'm uncertain that I want to know, but what is a "side deal"?

Thanks!


From doark at mail.com  Thu Oct 18 02:00:03 2018
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 21:00:03 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <20181017194405.2ca3e269@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017194405.2ca3e269@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <20181017210003.7dc4c49d@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 19:44:05 -0400
David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:30:17 +0100
> Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > ---
<snip>
> It's not like an OSH project can purchase a license for closed source
> HW something-or-another libraries, which I've read as being the main
> expense from anandtech (No, I'm not in the field).
> 
> >  if only wanting to reach a target of say producing the design files
> > (HDL), that's a different target entirely as well, and if someone else
> > can take over at that point (and make the actual money selling
> > product), then that's one way to ensure that the goal's reached [but
> > not guarantee financial benefit from it].  
> 
> I assumed at the time, you were talking HDL and with an FPGA for
> hardware backing with basic OpenGL, OpenCL, and 2D driver. No video
> encode/decode HW or Vulkan driver. Not mass produced, just a few
> prototypes. At about the same speed as a good Intel GPU, say a high end
> HD630 series. If you have a more concrete or different idea I'd be glad
> to hear it.
<snip>

But can it run Crysis? :-)
I *had* to say it!

PS: luke, I aught to have mentioned in my previous email that an Intel
high end HD630 series is 1/3rd as fast as an rx550 and Nvidia 1050 ti, it
is also 1/2 as fast as the 2200G AMD Raven Ridge APU.

Happy returns,
David


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Thu Oct 18 06:11:42 2018
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 06:11:42 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <11938562.arhK5adSbm@jeremy>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<11938562.arhK5adSbm@jeremy>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDxYT-o1fAXoHL6yNcPD+SOUCsrAJG7=d+vimV3WQ9=cdw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 5:29 PM Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 17. October 2018 16.30.17 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> >
> >  it depends on what you take into account.  if someone else pays the
> > NREs to the foundry, i.e. a university agrees to collaborate and is
> > offered access to a foundry for either free or at reduced rates,
> > $250k-$500k comes off that amount, straight away.
>
> Some interesting perspectives on this can be read about here:
>
> https://chips4makers.io/blog/startup-costs-and-low-volume-manufacturing.html

 yes, so, it actually costs, in the UK, about $600 per 180nm wafer.  a
full mask set however are still USD $250,000.  so even 180nm is still
mad.

> However, pursuing such a campaign with a product that really needs to be done
> with "proper" silicon - needing higher frequencies and power/performance
> benefits, perhaps - might get more support, albeit from not quite the same
> audiences as the ones targeted in this campaign.

 indeed, and that's great.

> Paul
>
> P.S. Still no progress from Crowd Supply on the latest update?

 getting there


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Thu Oct 18 06:30:13 2018
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 06:30:13 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <20181017194405.2ca3e269@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017194405.2ca3e269@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDy2vkxkNKvQjNbVsK4H-saGeksMuOvJfPETSsSU06gGqQ@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:44 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:30:17 +0100
> Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > ---
> > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 2:58 PM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:43:29 +0100
> > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > USD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to 100%
> > > > completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a smaller
> > > > geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU would be damn
> > > > good).
> > > >
> > > > l.
> > >
> > > Wait a sec! Last year you said:
> > >
> > > On Mon, 8 May 2017 16:43:07 +0100
> > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > > > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:27 PM,  <ronwirring at safe-mail.net> wrote:
> > > > > Best knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be
> > > > > reverse engineered. What in regard of the latest mali gpus?
> > > > > If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered?
> > > >
> > > >  yes.  about $150k would do it.   but the question is, really: what
> > > > would happen if you did?  and, what else could you do with the same
> > > > money?
> > > >
> > > >  well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own
> > > > libre processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D graphics
> > > > *without* paying anyone a cent.  any company tries to claim patent
> > > > royalties, all that happens is a search is made on their "claims",
> > > > for anything similar that has prior art.
> > > >
> > > >  if it's another company, guess what?  we notify that other company
> > > > and watch the fireworks...
> > > >
> > > > l.
> > >
> > > 1M - 150k = 750K!!!
> > > Therefore you're tripling your price estimate on us!
> >
> >  it depends on what you take into account.  if someone else pays the
> > NREs to the foundry, i.e. a university agrees to collaborate and is
> > offered access to a foundry for either free or at reduced rates,
> > $250k-$500k comes off that amount, straight away.
>
> My statement was based on: 1M - (3 x 150K == 450K [for the HDL]) = 550K
> for the silicon, and that's huge!

 relatively speaking it's tiny.

> What is the cost here?

 it was a throwaway comment, david, written in about 30 seconds, with
about 5 seconds thought.  the focus was more "a much higher bang per
buck can be achieved with that kind of money" than "here is a detailed
statement of work".

 it would take me a *lot* more time to specifically answer that very
general question without specific information.

> Silicon as an
> element is inexpensive and even 32nm foundries should have their HW paid
> for by now. It's been what? 8 years since 32nm and the half node, 28nm
> started? And the big buyers (AMD, Intel, Nvidia) were on it for 3+ years.

 28nm mask charges - the lithographic stencils onto glass - for 28nm
are i think USD $2m.  it's an exponential curve.  45nm is $1m.  it
drops to around $250,000 for 180nm.

> It's not like an OSH project can purchase a license for closed source
> HW something-or-another libraries,

 the industry term is "HDL" - i think it's just "hardware definition
language" or something.

> which I've read as being the main
> expense from anandtech (No, I'm not in the field).

 so that's why i spent several months tracking down libre equivalents,
and/or tracking down people in open hardware willing to *create*
libre-licensed HDL

> >  if only wanting to reach a target of say producing the design files
> > (HDL), that's a different target entirely as well, and if someone else
> > can take over at that point (and make the actual money selling
> > product), then that's one way to ensure that the goal's reached [but
> > not guarantee financial benefit from it].
>
> I assumed at the time, you were talking HDL and with an FPGA for
> hardware backing with basic OpenGL, OpenCL, and 2D driver. No video
> encode/decode HW or Vulkan driver. Not mass produced, just a few
> prototypes. At about the same speed as a good Intel GPU, say a high end
> HD630 series. If you have a more concrete or different idea I'd be glad
> to hear it.
>
> > so it was a throwaway comment written in about 30 seconds with no
> > strict analysis done.
>
> Really? You sounded so serious! Contrary to popular belief, sound does
> travel across the Internet, it's just that no body has managed to tie the
> Internet into the speakers yet. ;-)

 :)

> > last time i collaborated with an associate to
> > come up with a proper figure it was around USD $5m (for a client) and
> > it took us around five days to put that together. however that
> > particular deal excluded certain resources and had specific
> > requirements.
>
> :(
> I was aiming for 2M minimum. And that is BIG to me.

 if aiming for 28nm (without additional investors) that would barely
cover the production mask charges.  hence why i am interested to work
with IIT Madras.

 if requiring for example a modern DDR4 memory controller, over 50% of
that budget would be taken up.  hence why i am interested in HyperRAM
(upcoming JEDEC xSPI).

 if not using a back-end team such as the people that IIT Madras have
access to, that USD $2m would be entirely eaten by proprietary layout
tool licensing from Mentor Graphics and the engineers who would need
to be hired to do the work.  hence why i am interested in Magic,
alliance2 / coriolis, and libresilicon, all of which are developing
open ASIC layout tools.

 there is a *lot* i simply have not had time to talk about, here, david.

> > > Seriously, when I get BIG money (which will be a while),
> >
> >  cool
>
> Let me be frank, luke, I am under no delusions. No lottery. No gambling.
> No get rich quick schemes. But it will take time, as in ~5 years.
> Therefore, be excited about the OSH, not the money which may or may never
> be there.
>
> I don't always agree with you, but what you write I do pay attention to.
> And I have a terrible tendency of believing you. :)

 :)  always never do that: i am first and foremost an ethical person,
who goes, "that's not good, let's fix that", has absolutely *no idea*
how to go about "fixing that", and persistently chips away (often
randomly) regardless of complete lack of knowledge and expertise,
until success.

 it means that i really *really* need feedback and people to
double-check and triple-check.

> I had assumed that
> some company would opensource or support the OSS Mali drivers,
> eventually. Google has android running off of Mali, Samsung and LG have
> Smart TVs running off of Mali, the list goes on...
> But when you wrote about creating an OSH GPU yourself I realized that
> is spite of every Mali customer, Google et. al. would not support
> opensourcing anything if they could help it.

 YA THINK???

> Chromium's binary blob
> problems are even further proof.
> This became painfully clear when RISC-V came out. I expected *at least*
> the cache to be OSH... :CRY:
>
> I decided that if I could, it was up to me to pull in the funds for OSH,
> and "I think I can"(TM).

 awesome.  well, as usual i have a parallel set of tracks being
investigated, as part of a wider strategy of deals and collaborations
with various people, just bear in mind that your help would be part of
a much larger deal, ok?

> > > I'm planning on calling you on this one
> >
> >  excellent.  well, when that happens, let's talk (on or off list), you
> > let me know what you can raise and i'll put the time in - which will
> > be several days not a few moments - to work out what can be done, and
> > what side-deals will be needed, if necessary.
> >
> > l.
> >
>
> I will tell you, but keep in mind that there are other OSH products to be
> developed that I have my eyes on.
>
> Finally, I'm uncertain that I want to know, but what is a "side deal"?

 ok, so let's say we make a chip.  it's successfully made, it's all
done, and it works, right?

 and then we go, "ok, who wanna buy?"

 and... total absolute silence.

 egg.

 on.

 face.

 so the way to deal with that is: find **MULTIPLE** potential
customers, take their requirements into account, and make damn sure
that the SoC is capable of fulfilling THEIR needs times as many of
such potential customers as can possibly be found.

 and if even 30% of them come through and order 100,000, that's enough
to actually get a serious order with a foundry.

 now, some of those people might be willing to actually invest
up-front, to get the SoC made.

 that's what i mean by "side deals".  deals "on the side" that result
in everybody succeeding in getting what they want.

l.


From vkontogpls at gmail.com  Thu Oct 18 06:45:58 2018
From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:45:58 +0300
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDy2vkxkNKvQjNbVsK4H-saGeksMuOvJfPETSsSU06gGqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017194405.2ca3e269@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDy2vkxkNKvQjNbVsK4H-saGeksMuOvJfPETSsSU06gGqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+yRhot=W0eb6b87c5_87koMSk3o-PtQ5kkCy-yXxNUXH4zaSQ@mail.gmail.com>

There are dozens of arm sbs right now that are crippled mainly due to Mali
graphics. A lot of them would be very useful for stuff that e.g. the rpi
doesn't do like cheap nas. Just saying.

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 08:32 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net>
wrote:

> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:44 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:30:17 +0100
> > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > > ---
> > > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware:
> https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 2:58 PM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:43:29 +0100
> > > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > USD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to 100%
> > > > > completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a smaller
> > > > > geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU would be
> damn
> > > > > good).
> > > > >
> > > > > l.
> > > >
> > > > Wait a sec! Last year you said:
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 8 May 2017 16:43:07 +0100
> > > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:27 PM,  <ronwirring at safe-mail.net> wrote:
> > > > > > Best knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be
> > > > > > reverse engineered. What in regard of the latest mali gpus?
> > > > > > If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered?
> > > > >
> > > > >  yes.  about $150k would do it.   but the question is, really: what
> > > > > would happen if you did?  and, what else could you do with the same
> > > > > money?
> > > > >
> > > > >  well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own
> > > > > libre processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D
> graphics
> > > > > *without* paying anyone a cent.  any company tries to claim patent
> > > > > royalties, all that happens is a search is made on their "claims",
> > > > > for anything similar that has prior art.
> > > > >
> > > > >  if it's another company, guess what?  we notify that other company
> > > > > and watch the fireworks...
> > > > >
> > > > > l.
> > > >
> > > > 1M - 150k = 750K!!!
> > > > Therefore you're tripling your price estimate on us!
> > >
> > >  it depends on what you take into account.  if someone else pays the
> > > NREs to the foundry, i.e. a university agrees to collaborate and is
> > > offered access to a foundry for either free or at reduced rates,
> > > $250k-$500k comes off that amount, straight away.
> >
> > My statement was based on: 1M - (3 x 150K == 450K [for the HDL]) = 550K
> > for the silicon, and that's huge!
>
>  relatively speaking it's tiny.
>
> > What is the cost here?
>
>  it was a throwaway comment, david, written in about 30 seconds, with
> about 5 seconds thought.  the focus was more "a much higher bang per
> buck can be achieved with that kind of money" than "here is a detailed
> statement of work".
>
>  it would take me a *lot* more time to specifically answer that very
> general question without specific information.
>
> > Silicon as an
> > element is inexpensive and even 32nm foundries should have their HW paid
> > for by now. It's been what? 8 years since 32nm and the half node, 28nm
> > started? And the big buyers (AMD, Intel, Nvidia) were on it for 3+ years.
>
>  28nm mask charges - the lithographic stencils onto glass - for 28nm
> are i think USD $2m.  it's an exponential curve.  45nm is $1m.  it
> drops to around $250,000 for 180nm.
>
> > It's not like an OSH project can purchase a license for closed source
> > HW something-or-another libraries,
>
>  the industry term is "HDL" - i think it's just "hardware definition
> language" or something.
>
> > which I've read as being the main
> > expense from anandtech (No, I'm not in the field).
>
>  so that's why i spent several months tracking down libre equivalents,
> and/or tracking down people in open hardware willing to *create*
> libre-licensed HDL
>
> > >  if only wanting to reach a target of say producing the design files
> > > (HDL), that's a different target entirely as well, and if someone else
> > > can take over at that point (and make the actual money selling
> > > product), then that's one way to ensure that the goal's reached [but
> > > not guarantee financial benefit from it].
> >
> > I assumed at the time, you were talking HDL and with an FPGA for
> > hardware backing with basic OpenGL, OpenCL, and 2D driver. No video
> > encode/decode HW or Vulkan driver. Not mass produced, just a few
> > prototypes. At about the same speed as a good Intel GPU, say a high end
> > HD630 series. If you have a more concrete or different idea I'd be glad
> > to hear it.
> >
> > > so it was a throwaway comment written in about 30 seconds with no
> > > strict analysis done.
> >
> > Really? You sounded so serious! Contrary to popular belief, sound does
> > travel across the Internet, it's just that no body has managed to tie the
> > Internet into the speakers yet. ;-)
>
>  :)
>
> > > last time i collaborated with an associate to
> > > come up with a proper figure it was around USD $5m (for a client) and
> > > it took us around five days to put that together. however that
> > > particular deal excluded certain resources and had specific
> > > requirements.
> >
> > :(
> > I was aiming for 2M minimum. And that is BIG to me.
>
>  if aiming for 28nm (without additional investors) that would barely
> cover the production mask charges.  hence why i am interested to work
> with IIT Madras.
>
>  if requiring for example a modern DDR4 memory controller, over 50% of
> that budget would be taken up.  hence why i am interested in HyperRAM
> (upcoming JEDEC xSPI).
>
>  if not using a back-end team such as the people that IIT Madras have
> access to, that USD $2m would be entirely eaten by proprietary layout
> tool licensing from Mentor Graphics and the engineers who would need
> to be hired to do the work.  hence why i am interested in Magic,
> alliance2 / coriolis, and libresilicon, all of which are developing
> open ASIC layout tools.
>
>  there is a *lot* i simply have not had time to talk about, here, david.
>
> > > > Seriously, when I get BIG money (which will be a while),
> > >
> > >  cool
> >
> > Let me be frank, luke, I am under no delusions. No lottery. No gambling.
> > No get rich quick schemes. But it will take time, as in ~5 years.
> > Therefore, be excited about the OSH, not the money which may or may never
> > be there.
> >
> > I don't always agree with you, but what you write I do pay attention to.
> > And I have a terrible tendency of believing you. :)
>
>  :)  always never do that: i am first and foremost an ethical person,
> who goes, "that's not good, let's fix that", has absolutely *no idea*
> how to go about "fixing that", and persistently chips away (often
> randomly) regardless of complete lack of knowledge and expertise,
> until success.
>
>  it means that i really *really* need feedback and people to
> double-check and triple-check.
>
> > I had assumed that
> > some company would opensource or support the OSS Mali drivers,
> > eventually. Google has android running off of Mali, Samsung and LG have
> > Smart TVs running off of Mali, the list goes on...
> > But when you wrote about creating an OSH GPU yourself I realized that
> > is spite of every Mali customer, Google et. al. would not support
> > opensourcing anything if they could help it.
>
>  YA THINK???
>
> > Chromium's binary blob
> > problems are even further proof.
> > This became painfully clear when RISC-V came out. I expected *at least*
> > the cache to be OSH... :CRY:
> >
> > I decided that if I could, it was up to me to pull in the funds for OSH,
> > and "I think I can"(TM).
>
>  awesome.  well, as usual i have a parallel set of tracks being
> investigated, as part of a wider strategy of deals and collaborations
> with various people, just bear in mind that your help would be part of
> a much larger deal, ok?
>
> > > > I'm planning on calling you on this one
> > >
> > >  excellent.  well, when that happens, let's talk (on or off list), you
> > > let me know what you can raise and i'll put the time in - which will
> > > be several days not a few moments - to work out what can be done, and
> > > what side-deals will be needed, if necessary.
> > >
> > > l.
> > >
> >
> > I will tell you, but keep in mind that there are other OSH products to be
> > developed that I have my eyes on.
> >
> > Finally, I'm uncertain that I want to know, but what is a "side deal"?
>
>  ok, so let's say we make a chip.  it's successfully made, it's all
> done, and it works, right?
>
>  and then we go, "ok, who wanna buy?"
>
>  and... total absolute silence.
>
>  egg.
>
>  on.
>
>  face.
>
>  so the way to deal with that is: find **MULTIPLE** potential
> customers, take their requirements into account, and make damn sure
> that the SoC is capable of fulfilling THEIR needs times as many of
> such potential customers as can possibly be found.
>
>  and if even 30% of them come through and order 100,000, that's enough
> to actually get a serious order with a foundry.
>
>  now, some of those people might be willing to actually invest
> up-front, to get the SoC made.
>
>  that's what i mean by "side deals".  deals "on the side" that result
> in everybody succeeding in getting what they want.
>
> l.
>
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk

From lkcl at lkcl.net  Thu Oct 18 06:52:20 2018
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 06:52:20 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <CA+yRhot=W0eb6b87c5_87koMSk3o-PtQ5kkCy-yXxNUXH4zaSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017194405.2ca3e269@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDy2vkxkNKvQjNbVsK4H-saGeksMuOvJfPETSsSU06gGqQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+yRhot=W0eb6b87c5_87koMSk3o-PtQ5kkCy-yXxNUXH4zaSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDzvp+Mw_sj5XP-p71j8F5yerweYjj-cYsz1C7qgcSOW3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 6:46 AM Bill Kontos <vkontogpls at gmail.com> wrote:

> There are dozens of arm sbs right now that are crippled mainly due to Mali
> graphics. A lot of them would be very useful for stuff that e.g. the rpi
> doesn't do like cheap nas. Just saying.

 yes, i agree.   the thing is... *sigh*... percentage-wise, the people
you're referring to (those that would actually put arm SBCs to
different purposes) are an absolutely tiny fraction of the overall
market.  an important *strategic* fraction, nonetheless.

 the lesson there is one from HTC's products absolutely tanking after
they neglected to listen to a tiny vocal minority on strategic
(high-prominence) forums like xda-developers.com.  when going to "buy
product", anyone *not* technical of course does a google search.  if
the high-ranking google pages, not controlled by HTC, are filled with
complaints "this product is shit!  it doesn't have a keyboard like our
favourite predecessor does!!!" then the non-techies aren't gonna
buy...

 and it's the same here.  so... yes, reverse-engineering MALI will
have a much larger strategic impact on purchases of ARM-based products
than people realise...

 and that's what deeply concerns me: by raising USD $1m, this campaign
is empowering ARM to continue in their highly and deeply unethical
behaviour, such as fucking with libv's livelihood.

l.


From doark at mail.com  Fri Oct 19 03:14:46 2018
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 22:14:46 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzvp+Mw_sj5XP-p71j8F5yerweYjj-cYsz1C7qgcSOW3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017194405.2ca3e269@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDy2vkxkNKvQjNbVsK4H-saGeksMuOvJfPETSsSU06gGqQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+yRhot=W0eb6b87c5_87koMSk3o-PtQ5kkCy-yXxNUXH4zaSQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDzvp+Mw_sj5XP-p71j8F5yerweYjj-cYsz1C7qgcSOW3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20181018221446.586e0133@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 06:52:20 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 6:46 AM Bill Kontos <vkontogpls at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > There are dozens of arm sbs right now that are crippled mainly due to
> > Mali graphics. A lot of them would be very useful for stuff that e.g.
> > the rpi doesn't do like cheap nas. Just saying.  
> 
>  yes, i agree.   the thing is... *sigh*... percentage-wise, the people
> you're referring to (those that would actually put arm SBCs to
> different purposes) are an absolutely tiny fraction of the overall
> market.  an important *strategic* fraction, nonetheless.
> 
>  the lesson there is one from HTC's products absolutely tanking after
> they neglected to listen to a tiny vocal minority on strategic
> (high-prominence) forums like xda-developers.com.  when going to "buy
> product", anyone *not* technical of course does a google search.  if
> the high-ranking google pages, not controlled by HTC, are filled with
> complaints "this product is shit!  it doesn't have a keyboard like our
> favourite predecessor does!!!" then the non-techies aren't gonna
> buy...
> 
>  and it's the same here.  so... yes, reverse-engineering MALI will
> have a much larger strategic impact on purchases of ARM-based products
> than people realise...
> 
>  and that's what deeply concerns me: by raising USD $1m, this campaign
> is empowering ARM to continue in their highly and deeply unethical
> behaviour, such as fucking with libv's livelihood.

The light dawns in my head!!!

Thanks luke, that *really* explained your objections to an OSS mali
driver!



From doark at mail.com  Fri Oct 19 04:29:45 2018
From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 23:29:45 -0400
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDy2vkxkNKvQjNbVsK4H-saGeksMuOvJfPETSsSU06gGqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017194405.2ca3e269@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDy2vkxkNKvQjNbVsK4H-saGeksMuOvJfPETSsSU06gGqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20181018232945.09f45a94@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 06:30:13 +0100
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 12:44 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:30:17 +0100
> > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:  
> > > ---
> > > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware:
> > > https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 2:58 PM David Niklas <doark at mail.com>
> > > wrote:  
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:43:29 +0100
> > > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> > > >  
> > > > > USD $1m would fund the Libre RISC-V 3D GPU effort through to
> > > > > 100% completion including quite likely actual test silicon in a
> > > > > smaller geometry like 65 / 55nm (700mhz or so, which for a GPU
> > > > > would be damn good).
> > > > >
> > > > > l.  
> > > >
> > > > Wait a sec! Last year you said:
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 8 May 2017 16:43:07 +0100
> > > > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:  
> > > > > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 4:27 PM,  <ronwirring at safe-mail.net>
> > > > > wrote:  
> > > > > > Best knowledge is, that new intel and amd processors cannot be
> > > > > > reverse engineered. What in regard of the latest mali gpus?
> > > > > > If you have the money, they can be reverse engineered?  
> > > > >
> > > > >  yes.  about $150k would do it.   but the question is, really:
> > > > > what would happen if you did?  and, what else could you do with
> > > > > the same money?
> > > > >
> > > > >  well, with the same money it would be possible to make our own
> > > > > libre processor, with enough extensions to be able to do 3D
> > > > > graphics *without* paying anyone a cent.  any company tries to
> > > > > claim patent royalties, all that happens is a search is made on
> > > > > their "claims", for anything similar that has prior art.
> > > > >
> > > > >  if it's another company, guess what?  we notify that other
> > > > > company and watch the fireworks...
> > > > >
> > > > > l.  
> > > >
> > > > 1M - 150k = 750K!!!
> > > > Therefore you're tripling your price estimate on us!  
> > >
> > >  it depends on what you take into account.  if someone else pays the
> > > NREs to the foundry, i.e. a university agrees to collaborate and is
> > > offered access to a foundry for either free or at reduced rates,
> > > $250k-$500k comes off that amount, straight away.  
> >
> > My statement was based on: 1M - (3 x 150K == 450K [for the HDL]) =
> > 550K for the silicon, and that's huge!  
> 
>  relatively speaking it's tiny.

That's the equivalent of a good house over here *totally paid for*!

> > What is the cost here?  
> 
>  it was a throwaway comment, david, written in about 30 seconds, with
> about 5 seconds thought.  the focus was more "a much higher bang per
> buck can be achieved with that kind of money" than "here is a detailed
> statement of work".
> 
>  it would take me a *lot* more time to specifically answer that very
> general question without specific information.
> 
> > Silicon as an
> > element is inexpensive and even 32nm foundries should have their HW
> > paid for by now. It's been what? 8 years since 32nm and the half
> > node, 28nm started? And the big buyers (AMD, Intel, Nvidia) were on
> > it for 3+ years.  
> 
>  28nm mask charges - the lithographic stencils onto glass - for 28nm
> are i think USD $2m.  it's an exponential curve.  45nm is $1m.  it
> drops to around $250,000 for 180nm.

I had imagined that with at least 4 people (by my memory and including
me), offering you funding (in the fullness of time), you might have taken
a cursory look into the matter.

<snip>
> > > last time i collaborated with an associate to
> > > come up with a proper figure it was around USD $5m (for a client)
> > > and it took us around five days to put that together. however that
> > > particular deal excluded certain resources and had specific
> > > requirements.  
> >
> > :(
> > I was aiming for 2M minimum. And that is BIG to me.  
> 
> If aiming for 28nm (without additional investors) that would barely
> cover the production mask charges.  hence why i am interested to work
> with IIT Madras.
> 
> If requiring, for example, a modern DDR4 memory controller, over 50% of
> that budget would be taken up. Hence why I am interested in HyperRAM
> (upcoming JEDEC xSPI).

URL?
I've only heard of the upcoming DDR5 non-volatile memory.

> If not using a back-end team such as the people that IIT Madras have
> access to, that USD $2m would be entirely eaten by proprietary layout
> tool licensing from Mentor Graphics and the engineers who would need
> to be hired to do the work.  hence why I am interested in Magic,
> alliance2 / coriolis, and libresilicon, all of which are developing
> open ASIC layout tools.
> 
> There is a *lot* i simply have not had time to talk about, here, david.

Open source HW is going to require lots of talking, luke, esp. as each
part of the work gets closer to fruition. I don't deny your wisdom in
discerning your own path, but please consider at least attempting to take
on a liaison/spokesmen if you cannot keep up.

Remember The Foul Mouth of Sauron from LOTR? :)

<snip>
> > I don't always agree with you, but what you write I do pay attention
> > to. And I have a terrible tendency of believing you. :)  
> 
>  :)  always never do that:

Double self canceling absolute. Grammar error. SEGFAULT. Core dumped. :)

> i am first and foremost an ethical person,

Me too(TM).

> who goes, "that's not good, let's fix that", has absolutely *no idea*
> how to go about "fixing that", and persistently chips away (often
> randomly) regardless of complete lack of knowledge and expertise,
> until success.

That is *amazing*! You really sound like you know what you're doing.

> it means that i really *really* need feedback and people to
> double-check and triple-check.

Don't look at me, I'm almost the same way. :)

> > I had assumed that
> > some company would opensource or support the OSS Mali drivers,
> > eventually. Google has android running off of Mali, Samsung and LG
> > have Smart TVs running off of Mali, the list goes on...
> > But when you wrote about creating an OSH GPU yourself I realized that
> > is spite of every Mali customer, Google et. al. would not support
> > opensourcing anything if they could help it.  
> 
>  YA THINK???

This is an important difference between us, I see people as having a
choice, where any day the CEOs of these companies could wake up and say,
"We have been using FLOSS for years and have not given a fraction of what
we have made back; I shall be the opensource monetary sponsor and
pathfinder for their endeavors."

Or, how about using this line of reasoning, "We treat the FLOSS devs as
expendable laborers. Like of old, in Egypt, we are their cruel
taskmasters, our thirst for their sweat and blood never satisfied. Truly,
they donate their lives to the cause, and we have only beads and trinkets
to offer them in return. Indeed, I shall reward their efforts, and see
that every devotee receives his due."

Stallmen and ESR both thought that FLOSS just needed to prove itself to
catch on. I bought into that strategy. I gave it up after 6 years. There
is a lot more morals involved than that. Even AMD's FLOSS diver is more
about the economics than anything else.

Did I mention that mixed source was returning under the guise of FLOSS
through chromium/android et. al.?

We need a leader for the OSH, someone who will stand up to the vendor
lock in/greedy bullies of out time. I thought RMS, then luke would be it,
but not so. You're a great person, luke, but you don't seem the type.

> > Chromium's binary blob
> > problems are even further proof.
> > This became painfully clear when RISC-V came out. I expected *at
> > least* the cache to be OSH... :CRY:
> >
> > I decided that if I could, it was up to me to pull in the funds for
> > OSH, and "I think I can"(TM).  
> 
>  awesome.  well, as usual i have a parallel set of tracks being
> investigated, as part of a wider strategy of deals and collaborations
> with various people, just bear in mind that your help would be part of
> a much larger deal, ok?

Ok, but I must confess I have been thinking and planning this for a long
time and have quite a few good ideas about the implementation.

I also have a thick head and no idea what I'm talking about. :)

> > > > I'm planning on calling you on this one  
> > >
> > >  excellent.  well, when that happens, let's talk (on or off list),
> > > you let me know what you can raise and i'll put the time in - which
> > > will be several days not a few moments - to work out what can be
> > > done, and what side-deals will be needed, if necessary.
> > >
> > > l.
> > >  
> >
> > I will tell you, but keep in mind that there are other OSH products
> > to be developed that I have my eyes on.
> >
> > Finally, I'm uncertain that I want to know, but what is a "side
> > deal"?  
> 
>  ok, so let's say we make a chip.  it's successfully made, it's all
> done, and it works, right?
> 
>  and then we go, "ok, who wanna buy?"
> 
>  and... total absolute silence.
> 
>  egg.
> 
>  on.
> 
>  face.

Eventually we will need normal people to be our user base. I know a bit
about marketing, but estimating demand or creating a sense of needing
non-propriety HW? *I have totally no idea*.

At all.

Ponder that for me luke, it is the one mystery that *totally evades* me.

The best I can do where I live is get blank looks and, "I want my icons!"
and "What I have now works." statements. Really!? That is all?! You, the
end user could have SO MUCH MORE!

They simply don't know what wonders and powers they're missing out on.

And how badly they are used and abused.

And then stuck through the meat grinder again and again.

They say/act like, "We owe [insert favorite company/politician]
everything."
"Yes," I respond, "that is what they want, *Everything*!"

>  so the way to deal with that is: find **MULTIPLE** potential
> customers, take their requirements into account, and make damn sure
> that the SoC is capable of fulfilling THEIR needs times as many of
> such potential customers as can possibly be found.
> 
>  and if even 30% of them come through and order 100,000, that's enough
> to actually get a serious order with a foundry.
> 
>  now, some of those people might be willing to actually invest
> up-front, to get the SoC made.
> 
>  that's what i mean by "side deals".  deals "on the side" that result
> in everybody succeeding in getting what they want.
> 
> l.

That's good. I thought you might have us eternally relying on a college
or some other deal where a slip of some money from [insert enemy company]
would lead to the projects all going down the drain.
And yes, if we *really* succeed the competition will band together and do
that to us.
If not the 3 letter US government agencies.

Thanks


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Fri Oct 19 09:54:24 2018
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:54:24 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Should we support libre.computer's efforts at
 promoting lima?
In-Reply-To: <20181018232945.09f45a94@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwY6KHOn7VLJdvhVkPdFZ9oBCTLOFfeLFDuYfBKaf0Dqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017095824.781331f2@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDwBJ8TiyE4T21SGePMF4+w=JMn4FPcL0kT_XxTQejEaNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181017194405.2ca3e269@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<CAPweEDy2vkxkNKvQjNbVsK4H-saGeksMuOvJfPETSsSU06gGqQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20181018232945.09f45a94@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwMFCdU5-Y8Z_Gdd1m+ke3oUEaHZhiGxX1HX77+_vXZ7g@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:30 AM David Niklas <doark at mail.com> wrote:

> >  relatively speaking it's tiny.
>
> That's the equivalent of a good house over here *totally paid for*!

 and about 10-20 homes in say scotland... yes.

 the difficulty level and risks associated with silicon are so high
that the profits to be made are as equally enormous.

> > > What is the cost here?
> >
> >  it was a throwaway comment, david, written in about 30 seconds, with
> > about 5 seconds thought.  the focus was more "a much higher bang per
> > buck can be achieved with that kind of money" than "here is a detailed
> > statement of work".
> >
> >  it would take me a *lot* more time to specifically answer that very
> > general question without specific information.
> >
> > > Silicon as an
> > > element is inexpensive and even 32nm foundries should have their HW
> > > paid for by now. It's been what? 8 years since 32nm and the half
> > > node, 28nm started? And the big buyers (AMD, Intel, Nvidia) were on
> > > it for 3+ years.
> >
> >  28nm mask charges - the lithographic stencils onto glass - for 28nm
> > are i think USD $2m.  it's an exponential curve.  45nm is $1m.  it
> > drops to around $250,000 for 180nm.
>
> I had imagined that with at least 4 people (by my memory and including
> me), offering you funding (in the fullness of time), you might have taken
> a cursory look into the matter.

 indeed.  "paying some engineers time to get the libre-licensed HDL
developed", i have a vaaaague feeling that that was the focus of our
discussions some months back.


> > If requiring, for example, a modern DDR4 memory controller, over 50% of
> > that budget would be taken up. Hence why I am interested in HyperRAM
> > (upcoming JEDEC xSPI).
>
> URL?

 google it, as that's exactly and precisely what i would do anyway.
only cursory information is available as JEDEC runs on an ITU-style
(closed, proprietary) basis.

 HyperRAM on the other hand is extremely common.  it's basically Quad
SPI extended to 8 bit and DDR.


> > If not using a back-end team such as the people that IIT Madras have
> > access to, that USD $2m would be entirely eaten by proprietary layout
> > tool licensing from Mentor Graphics and the engineers who would need
> > to be hired to do the work.  hence why I am interested in Magic,
> > alliance2 / coriolis, and libresilicon, all of which are developing
> > open ASIC layout tools.
> >
> > There is a *lot* i simply have not had time to talk about, here, david.
>
> Open source HW is going to require lots of talking, luke, esp. as each
> part of the work gets closer to fruition.

 yup.

> I don't deny your wisdom in
> discerning your own path, but please consider at least attempting to take
> on a liaison/spokesmen if you cannot keep up.

 if there's funds available to pay them... of course.

> > who goes, "that's not good, let's fix that", has absolutely *no idea*
> > how to go about "fixing that", and persistently chips away (often
> > randomly) regardless of complete lack of knowledge and expertise,
> > until success.
>
> That is *amazing*! You really sound like you know what you're doing.

 i really don't: i just have a fast enough corrective loop that it may
*look* that way.  there are massive holes however.

> Did I mention that mixed source was returning under the guise of FLOSS
> through chromium/android et. al.?

 don't start.  i'm keenly aware of the damage that google has done by
using the apache2 license.

> We need a leader for the OSH, someone who will stand up to the vendor
> lock in/greedy bullies of out time. I thought RMS, then luke would be it,
> but not so. You're a great person, luke, but you don't seem the type.

 i'm tackling it differently by going further and further up the
hardware chain.  *that* is physical items that are required to be
bought.  that's where software cannot be "controlled", if you will.
anyone can download libre-licensed source and completely ignore their
ethical and moral obligation to fund the developers who created it.
that *cannot* be done with hardware.

> > > Chromium's binary blob
> > > problems are even further proof.
> > > This became painfully clear when RISC-V came out. I expected *at
> > > least* the cache to be OSH... :CRY:
> > >
> > > I decided that if I could, it was up to me to pull in the funds for
> > > OSH, and "I think I can"(TM).
> >
> >  awesome.  well, as usual i have a parallel set of tracks being
> > investigated, as part of a wider strategy of deals and collaborations
> > with various people, just bear in mind that your help would be part of
> > a much larger deal, ok?
>
> Ok, but I must confess I have been thinking and planning this for a long
> time and have quite a few good ideas about the implementation.

 cool.

> >  ok, so let's say we make a chip.  it's successfully made, it's all
> > done, and it works, right?
> >
> >  and then we go, "ok, who wanna buy?"
> >
> >  and... total absolute silence.
> >
> >  egg.
> >
> >  on.
> >
> >  face.
>
> Eventually we will need normal people to be our user base. I know a bit
> about marketing, but estimating demand or creating a sense of needing
> non-propriety HW? *I have totally no idea*.

 i have a potential client who will order 100,000 units in the first
year, if certain power and functionaliy requirements are met.  it's a
self-contained market for their product so the fact that it's RISC-V
is completely irrelevant to them.

 then there is the india smartphone / netbook / chromebook market.

> That's good. I thought you might have us eternally relying on a college
> or some other deal where a slip of some money from [insert enemy company]
> would lead to the projects all going down the drain.

 nope.  flexibility and multi-pronged strategy.


From paul at boddie.org.uk  Wed Oct 31 15:32:06 2018
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 16:32:06 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Latest Update
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDxYT-o1fAXoHL6yNcPD+SOUCsrAJG7=d+vimV3WQ9=cdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<11938562.arhK5adSbm@jeremy>
	<CAPweEDxYT-o1fAXoHL6yNcPD+SOUCsrAJG7=d+vimV3WQ9=cdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4189229.if2XSUUKeo@jeremy>

On Thursday 18. October 2018 06.11.42 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 5:29 PM Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > P.S. Still no progress from Crowd Supply on the latest update?
> 
>  getting there

Thanks for posting this, with it being published yesterday:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/test-run-of-100-a20-cards-and-contract-work

I am sorry to hear about the hassle with the contracting and the disappointing 
experience that seemed to result. It is unfortunate that organisations are 
often incapable of being persuaded to function in a way that would actually 
serve their best interests.

In my earlier consulting days, the mantra "appropriate quality" would be used 
as an equivalent to the rather familiar "don't spend too much time on it". 
What results from this is that people then don't do things properly, store up 
trouble for the future, and then hope that the customer will pay again to make 
things right. I guess it is an indication of how much of human society 
operates: put things off, collect the immediate rewards, and leave the mess 
for others to fix at their expense.

A note about Liberapay, though: it seems that they do support other payment 
providers now. If you can tolerate PayPal (I cannot) then they are supported. 
The other current option is Stripe.

In any case, I hope the test run works out and can pave the way for production 
and the release of more funds.

Paul


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Wed Oct 31 17:44:58 2018
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 17:44:58 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] Latest Update
In-Reply-To: <4189229.if2XSUUKeo@jeremy>
References: <20181016223945.2aee2bee@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com>
	<11938562.arhK5adSbm@jeremy>
	<CAPweEDxYT-o1fAXoHL6yNcPD+SOUCsrAJG7=d+vimV3WQ9=cdw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4189229.if2XSUUKeo@jeremy>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwUm92JPWc2UJB5KH1WFyCgwR=zfSTKThzweTLdj348ww@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 3:32 PM Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk> wrote:

> In any case, I hope the test run works out and can pave the way for production
> and the release of more funds.

 appreciated, paul.