From vkontogpls at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 15:12:59 2018 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 17:12:59 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] The project page (crowdsupp... In-Reply-To: References: <152959349610.21555.11927264690816099071.repoze.sendmail@cosmo> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 3:07 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > anyone may do so... under license [zero fees if it's libre]. i have > been doing them up until now. I am aware. My question was more on the practical terms of who is *actually* going to make future cards after the A20. Is thinkpenguin going to make them on their own? From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jul 2 16:28:07 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:28:07 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] [Campaign Question] The project page (crowdsupp... In-Reply-To: References: <152959349610.21555.11927264690816099071.repoze.sendmail@cosmo> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 3:07 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > >> anyone may do so... under license [zero fees if it's libre]. i have >> been doing them up until now. > > > I am aware. My question was more on the practical terms of who is > *actually* going to make future cards after the A20. i don't know. anyone wants to approach me i'm *required* as the Certification Mark Holder to consider their approach [FRAND] > Is thinkpenguin going to make them on their own? i don't know: that will be up to them as a business to decide. l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 00:05:42 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 17:05:42 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 Prototype Status In-Reply-To: References: <201806031838.47947.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <4B0C5DE2-92A9-48D3-A34F-54795C393BFE@gmail.com> > On Jun 3, 2018, at 14:17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > […] [prototypes] > arrived yesterday, testing them now, RAM's fine, checking HDMI. > dealing with RISC-V and recovering from four weeks of travelling to > six different places in four different countries. Good to hear they booted and the RAM works! Have you had a chance to recover from your whirlwind tour? Any signs of life from the uHDMI? Richard From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jul 3 00:17:18 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 00:17:18 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68-A20 Prototype Status In-Reply-To: <4B0C5DE2-92A9-48D3-A34F-54795C393BFE@gmail.com> References: <201806031838.47947.paul@boddie.org.uk> <4B0C5DE2-92A9-48D3-A34F-54795C393BFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: \On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:05 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > >> On Jun 3, 2018, at 14:17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> […] > [prototypes] >> arrived yesterday, testing them now, RAM's fine, checking HDMI. >> dealing with RISC-V and recovering from four weeks of travelling to >> six different places in four different countries. > > Good to hear they booted and the RAM works! seeerious relief. > Have you had a chance to recover from your whirlwind tour? not exactly. i'm not exactly 100% health so am tired (and sleeping) a well-above-average amount of time. > Any signs of life from the uHDMI? not yet. i can't remember exactly what it was i did 2 years ago that got it working. i think it was putting the LCD on at the same time (dual-screen), something to do in the code in 3.4.104 that doesn't switch all the clocks on correctly. l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 01:57:30 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 18:57:30 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 Message-ID: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> By the way, what is the status of the microdesktop design v1.7? Have you already invested in parts (specifically the 2x10 header) and/or circuit boards? From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jul 3 10:19:23 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:19:23 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:57 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > By the way, what is the status of the microdesktop > design v1.7? Have you already invested in parts (specifically > the 2x10 header) and/or circuit boards? yep all good. the funds that were transferred to mike 18+ months ago ($60k) are down to around $45k now and he's got most of that left with which to order components for the 1.7 md and 2.7.5 card. l. From david at boddie.org.uk Tue Jul 10 17:13:12 2018 From: david at boddie.org.uk (David Boddie) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 18:13:12 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] riscv-basics.com Message-ID: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> This site popped up on the radar for me this morning. It's currently down - perhaps there was a public backlash, the server overheated, or something - but at least the Internet Archive still has a copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20180710130206/https://riscv-basics.com/ Time to start a riscv-netbook mailing list, perhaps? ;-) David From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Jul 10 20:37:14 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:37:14 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] riscv-basics.com In-Reply-To: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> References: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 5:13 PM, David Boddie wrote: > This site popped up on the radar for me this morning. yeah. interestingly the bullet-points 3 and 5 are *actuallly legitimate concerns*. the RISC-V Foundation is over-controlled by UCB Berkeley, via a structure that is similar to the failed Google Project Ara ("it's open as long as you sign our secret agreement and don't publish information we don't want you to"). > It's currently down - perhaps there was a public backlash, the server > overheated, or something - but at least the Internet Archive still has a > copy: > > https://web.archive.org/web/20180710130206/https://riscv-basics.com/ > > Time to start a riscv-netbook mailing list, perhaps? ;-) :) From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 22:11:12 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:11:12 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] riscv-basics.com In-Reply-To: References: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> Message-ID: > On Jul 10, 2018, at 13:37, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > interestingly the bullet-points 3 and 5 are *actuallly > legitimate concerns*. the RISC-V Foundation is over-controlled by UCB > Berkeley,[0] via a structure that is similar to the failed Google Project > Ara ("it's open as long as you sign our secret agreement and don't > publish information we don't want you to"). Are you referring to "Design Assurance"(as 3) and "Security"(as 5)? Seems like an advertisement specifically against risc-v by and for ARM. I'm sorry to hear about those terms on a project with any pretensions of being "open". Notes: [0] UCB stands for "University of California at Berkeley" so the intermediate form is normally "UC Berkeley". From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jul 11 01:26:35 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 01:26:35 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] riscv-basics.com In-Reply-To: References: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:11 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: >> On Jul 10, 2018, at 13:37, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> interestingly the bullet-points 3 and 5 are *actuallly >> legitimate concerns*. the RISC-V Foundation is over-controlled by UCB >> Berkeley,[0] via a structure that is similar to the failed Google Project >> Ara ("it's open as long as you sign our secret agreement and don't >> publish information we don't want you to"). > > Are you referring to "Design Assurance"(as 3) and "Security"(as 5)? fragmentation risk and cost. > Seems like an advertisement specifically against risc-v by and for ARM. indeed... one that that has been well-researched and partly has merit. other aspects definitely do not. > I'm sorry to hear about those terms on a project with any pretensions of being "open". i know. i was... extremely optimistic and hopeful when i started hearing about RISC-V, particularly that it was intended to solve mny of the issues and mistakes made in RISC design over the past 30+ years. however that quickly turned to shock, then puzzlement, and now i'm wondering where to go from here, as i learned over time that the UC B team behind RISC-V, although they have achieved absolutely fantastic things, are... unable to let go of control of the development process, shall we say. it comes down basically to them being technically brilliant. sufficiently brilliant that they are unable to appreciate that other people may have very good reasons for wanting to do something quite differently from how they envisaged it should be done. there are many many examples from a huge range of levels of needs, from a huge range of diverse contributors. the MIT Team for example, who want to do research into formally-secure processors, *specifically* require "Total Store Order" memory semantics. as in, when a memory access (load or store) is requested, the order is ABSOLUTELY guaranteed to be preserved (and speed and cacheing and out-of-order execution can go take a running jump). however.... the RISC-V memory model was *specifically* designed by UC B with some *specific* design criteria and *specific* optimisations and a lot of research.... consequently MIT had to fight tooth and nail just to get a single one-page chapter put into the specification. anyway. i'll be in Chennai next week, i'm giving a talk on the Libre RISC-V SoC. l. From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Wed Jul 11 01:51:35 2018 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 01:51:35 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Nokia Documentary Message-ID: <45c06d68-3baa-8b0d-a0f7-3942b85cfe38@aross.me> Watched tonight the doc which was shown on bbc4 about nokias beginning, middle and downfall. this riscv stuff is kinda sounding a little like it... :/ doc name: The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Nokia Nokia main problems seam to be: Swapped with many manipulative managers that came in as it grew. The west (aka yet again America) using monopoly to crush/control competition. Nokia stopped being a open, idea sharing company after that. I didn’t know there was a time when they didn’t patent! That was a surprise. I had always assumed they where a evilcorp. From calmstorm at posteo.de Wed Jul 11 01:56:26 2018 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:56:26 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Nokia Documentary In-Reply-To: <45c06d68-3baa-8b0d-a0f7-3942b85cfe38@aross.me> References: <45c06d68-3baa-8b0d-a0f7-3942b85cfe38@aross.me> Message-ID: <15e8f0b0-8ff8-eeb5-17c1-f6b83c0455ac@posteo.de> On 07/11/18 00:51, Alexander Ross wrote: > Watched tonight the doc which was shown on bbc4 about nokias beginning, > middle and downfall. this riscv stuff is kinda sounding a little like > it... :/ > > doc name: The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Nokia > > > Nokia main problems seam to be: > > Swapped with many manipulative managers that came in as it grew. > > The west (aka yet again America) using monopoly to crush/control > competition. Nokia stopped being a open, idea sharing company after > that. I didn’t know there was a time when they didn’t patent! That was a > surprise. I had always assumed they where a evilcorp. I learned about this a while back when I found out about replicant, who would have thought right? Oh well... > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From valhalla-l at trueelena.org Wed Jul 11 11:27:43 2018 From: valhalla-l at trueelena.org (Elena ``of Valhalla'') Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 12:27:43 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] riscv-basics.com In-Reply-To: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> References: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> Message-ID: <20180711102743.en4bykqkopt7rxmw@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> On 2018-07-10 at 18:13:12 +0200, David Boddie wrote: > It's currently down - perhaps there was a public backlash, the server > overheated, or something it has been taken down by arm themselves after their own staff complained: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/10/arm_riscv_website/ -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jul 11 12:19:04 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 12:19:04 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] riscv-basics.com In-Reply-To: <20180711102743.en4bykqkopt7rxmw@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> References: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> <20180711102743.en4bykqkopt7rxmw@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 11:27 AM, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote: > On 2018-07-10 at 18:13:12 +0200, David Boddie wrote: >> It's currently down - perhaps there was a public backlash, the server >> overheated, or something > > it has been taken down by arm themselves after their own staff > complained: > > https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/10/arm_riscv_website/ thanks for the tip, elena. there's another one on phoronix - https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ARM-RISC-V-Facts i couldn't help but put this in: https://slashdot.org/submission/8382672/arms-own-employees-complain-about-anti-riscv-website i'm kinda surprised that there's not been a slashdot article yet about this, so if you feel it should be on the front page do vote it up. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Jul 12 00:16:01 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 00:16:01 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] riscv-basics.com In-Reply-To: References: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> <20180711102743.en4bykqkopt7rxmw@manillaroad.local.home.trueelena.org> Message-ID: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/18/07/11/1958213/arms-own-employees-complain-about-anti-riscv-website#comments From wean.irdeh at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 21:10:22 2018 From: wean.irdeh at gmail.com (Wean Irdeh) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 03:10:22 +0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Nokia's heavy reliance to Intel might make them to fail once again Message-ID: https://www.semiaccurate.com/2018/07/02/intel-custom-foundrys-10nm-meltdown-is-crushing-a-20b-market-cap-tech-giant/ Who's your guess on the article? Before Nokia merged with Alcatel-Lucent, Reefshark was produced by Alcatel-Lucent and manufactured in TSMC. Now that Nokia and Alcatel-Lucent are one, the ReefShark is using Intel's 10nm technology for no apparent reason and we all know Intel's 10nm is a disaster right now. I'm not surprised if Nokia is actually the one who get mentioned on the article From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Jul 13 00:50:46 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:50:46 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Nokia's heavy reliance to Intel might make them to fail once again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 9:10 PM, Wean Irdeh wrote: > Before Nokia merged with Alcatel-Lucent, Reefshark was produced by > Alcatel-Lucent and manufactured in TSMC. ohnoo... if it was just nokia, that would be kinda-ok, but alcatel-lucent do france / european phones, have done for a long time. alcatel are one of the few companies that honour the GPL by releasing source code, even against mediatek's blatant GPL violations and NDAs. l. From doark at mail.com Fri Jul 13 04:32:38 2018 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 23:32:38 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Nokia Documentary In-Reply-To: <15e8f0b0-8ff8-eeb5-17c1-f6b83c0455ac@posteo.de> References: <45c06d68-3baa-8b0d-a0f7-3942b85cfe38@aross.me> <15e8f0b0-8ff8-eeb5-17c1-f6b83c0455ac@posteo.de> Message-ID: <20180712233238.7207ab1d@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:56:26 +0000 zap wrote: > > Nokia main problems seam to be: > > > > Swapped with many manipulative managers that came in as it grew. > > > > The west (aka yet again America) using monopoly to crush/control > > competition. Nokia stopped being a open, idea sharing company after > > that. I didn’t know there was a time when they didn’t patent! That > > was a surprise. I had always assumed they where a evilcorp. > > > I learned about this a while back when I found out about replicant, who > would have thought right? Oh well... Where might I find That story? Thanks! From wean.irdeh at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 05:18:15 2018 From: wean.irdeh at gmail.com (Wean Irdeh) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:18:15 +0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Nokia's heavy reliance to Intel might make them to fail once again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > > > ohnoo... if it was just nokia, that would be kinda-ok, but > alcatel-lucent do france / european phones, have done for a long time. > alcatel are one of the few companies that honour the GPL by releasing > source code, even against mediatek's blatant GPL violations and NDAs. > > l > Alcatel-Lucent formed a joint venture with TCL, a Chinese company to produce phone in 2004, but TCL acquired the joint venture in 2005 "honour the GPL" I assume you mean the Linux kernel used on Android, which mean the source code were released by TCL without any involvement from Alcatel-Lucent (since the joint venture dissolved on 2005) From doark at mail.com Fri Jul 13 14:18:46 2018 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:18:46 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] riscv-basics.com In-Reply-To: References: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> Message-ID: <20180713091846.1771b0d0@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 01:26:35 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:11 PM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: > > >> On Jul 10, 2018, at 13:37, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > >> wrote: interestingly the bullet-points 3 and 5 are > >> *actuallly legitimate concerns*. the RISC-V Foundation is > >> over-controlled by UCB Berkeley,[0] via a structure that is similar > >> to the failed Google Project Ara ("it's open as long as you sign our > >> secret agreement and don't publish information we don't want you > >> to"). > > > > Are you referring to "Design Assurance"(as 3) and "Security"(as 5)? > > fragmentation risk and cost. > > > Seems like an advertisement specifically against risc-v by and for > > ARM. > > indeed... one that that has been well-researched and partly has > merit. other aspects definitely do not. > > > I'm sorry to hear about those terms on a project with any pretensions > > of being "open". > > i know. i was... extremely optimistic and hopeful when i started > hearing about RISC-V, particularly that it was intended to solve mny > of the issues and mistakes made in RISC design over the past 30+ > years. > > however that quickly turned to shock, then puzzlement, and now i'm > wondering where to go from here, as i learned over time that the UC B > team behind RISC-V, although they have achieved absolutely fantastic > things, are... unable to let go of control of the development process, > shall we say. > > it comes down basically to them being technically brilliant. > sufficiently brilliant that they are unable to appreciate that other > people may have very good reasons for wanting to do something quite > differently from how they envisaged it should be done. > I thought that riscv was based on "prior art" such that any license that restricts it would be untenable. Assuming that faith in riscv is misplaced, what about Epiphany? The Parallela (FPGA) board in no longer developed, but the processor is still an OSS arch, right? Thanks From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 02:55:01 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 21:55:01 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] riscv-basics.com In-Reply-To: <20180713091846.1771b0d0@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> References: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> <20180713091846.1771b0d0@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> Message-ID: Misplaced might be an over-exaggeration. This issue seems virtually identical to the issues with SystemD. The establishment wants to do their own thing, after getting bored of their own principles, eventually someone needs to build a stable fork and all will return to normal eventually, so long as there are individuals that still care and still act like they care. Part of getting bored of one's own principles is getting burnt out. That happened with pulseaudio and that happened with fastbooting SystemD. Really this feels normal and ''probably'' healthy. Even whole organizations can burn out. I guess this is how to cope. Perhaps, Luke, this aggression you/many perceive from these individuals is less arrogance and more a reaction to overwhelming pressure, don't ya think now that I say? : D From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Jul 14 12:35:06 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 12:35:06 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] kuala lumpur airport on way chennai Message-ID: On way to 9th RISCV workshop in chennai, preliminary slides here http://hands.com/~lkcl/libre_riscv_chennai_2018.pdf Contains links to other talks but not accepted ones. Paul Boddie i still owe you a reply to your message. New crowdfunding campaign being discussed, help raise awareness. Also included would like to do a Libre 3D GPU. Actually GPGPU so using gallium3d-llvm with minor acceleration and adequate vectorisation. -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From paul at boddie.org.uk Sat Jul 14 14:23:23 2018 From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 15:23:23 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] kuala lumpur airport on way chennai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201807141523.24279.paul@boddie.org.uk> On Saturday 14. July 2018 13.35.06 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On way to 9th RISCV workshop in chennai, preliminary slides here > http://hands.com/~lkcl/libre_riscv_chennai_2018.pdf > > Contains links to other talks but not accepted ones. > > Paul Boddie i still owe you a reply to your message. Thanks for the acknowledgement! I recognise that you are very busy, but I felt that it would be useful for the rest of us, and also helpful for you, for you to articulate your plans. My concern, particularly as the specific campaign was always meant to be the first step in something larger, is that the route towards this larger goal is no longer clear to the rest of us. Have a safe journey! Paul From wean.irdeh at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 14:33:24 2018 From: wean.irdeh at gmail.com (Wean Irdeh) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 20:33:24 +0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] kuala lumpur airport on way chennai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Way to go, Luke! I have faith in you overall! I hope I can donate to your liberapay once I'm no longer being poor! From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Jul 14 15:39:40 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 15:39:40 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] kuala lumpur airport on way chennai In-Reply-To: <201807141523.24279.paul@boddie.org.uk> References: <201807141523.24279.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: On Saturday, July 14, 2018, Paul Boddie wrote: > On Saturday 14. July 2018 13.35.06 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On way to 9th RISCV workshop in chennai, preliminary slides here > > http://hands.com/~lkcl/libre_riscv_chennai_2018.pdf > > > > Contains links to other talks but not accepted ones. > > > > Paul Boddie i still owe you a reply to your message. > > Thanks for the acknowledgement! > > I recognise that you are very busy, but I felt that it would be useful for > the > rest of us, and also helpful for you, for you to articulate your plans. > > My concern, particularly as the specific campaign was always meant to be > the > first step in something larger, is that the route towards this larger goal > is > no longer clear to the rest of us. > > I know. Its not changed just slowed down, absolutely had to make sure cards worked, all components available. With 300k funding and paying 5 professionals it would have been done in 3-5 months flat. Aside from money for a20 and md components remaining money only 20k so nothing available for living expenses. Consequently i have to do something else. And if i am doing something else I cannot focus 100% on the laptop. The liberapay helps however its 30% of full time funds. I have upcoming contract work in belgium, from august. LibreRISCV can be done by contractors more later Have a safe journey! > > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From vkontogpls at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 21:20:36 2018 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 23:20:36 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] kuala lumpur airport on way chennai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On way to 9th RISCV workshop in chennai, preliminary slides here > http://hands.com/~lkcl/libre_riscv_chennai_2018.pdf > > Contains links to other talks but not accepted ones. > Slide 20 is missing content/glitched. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 21:22:44 2018 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 23:22:44 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] low cost pcb wifi antenna Message-ID: This just came into my attention: https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/pi-zero-w-wireless-antenna-design/ Very interesting and potentially useful in the future. Note that the antenna design is available for licensing. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jul 15 02:58:06 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 02:58:06 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] kuala lumpur airport on way chennai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sunday, July 15, 2018, Bill Kontos wrote: > On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > > On way to 9th RISCV workshop in chennai, preliminary slides here > > http://hands.com/~lkcl/libre_riscv_chennai_2018.pdf > > > > Contains links to other talks but not accepted ones. > > > > Slide 20 is missing content/glitched. Yep must rsync latest. Later today. Still got 3 days > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 15:21:00 2018 From: mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com (Mike Henry) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] kuala lumpur airport on way chennai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 7:58 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sunday, July 15, 2018, Bill Kontos wrote: > >> On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> wrote: >> > On way to 9th RISCV workshop in chennai, preliminary slides here >> > http://hands.com/~lkcl/libre_riscv_chennai_2018.pdf >> > >> > Contains links to other talks but not accepted ones. >> > >> >> Slide 20 is missing content/glitched. > > > Yep must rsync latest. Later today. Still got 3 days Slides look great (now?) Good luck with your talk. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jul 16 01:55:15 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 01:55:15 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] kuala lumpur airport on way chennai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sunday, July 15, 2018, Mike Henry wrote: > > > > > Yep must rsync latest. Later today. Still got 3 days > > > Slides look great (now?) Good luck with your talk. > > Thx mike. 19th > -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jul 16 03:38:34 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 03:38:34 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Campaign Schedule and Future Sales/Products In-Reply-To: <201806242301.10645.paul@boddie.org.uk> References: <201806242301.10645.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 10:01 PM, Paul Boddie wrote: > I saw the recent response to my enquiry ("EOMA68-A20 Prototype Status") which > was augmented by a campaign update: > > "It’s going to take about a month to have the 8 Gbit 1600 MHz DDR3 x8 RAM ICs > manufactured: we’re on the way. [...] All in all, it will likely take three > months after getting the cards back from assembly before shipping begins. That > puts actual delivery of the first units in late October." Yes. Mike is being extra cautious, hes ordered the full set of components now for 1000 cards and 500 mds. > https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/2-7-5-samples- > received-dram-is-ok-micro-hdmi-to-confirm > > This new information is much appreciated, and I hope that everything continues > going to plan. Meanwhile, I noticed that the matter of future sales and > products arose in another thread, with the intention being expressed that > others will be producing and selling boards in future. More that as the certification mark holder i cannot sell at all to anyone period and so that automatucally means someone else has to. I can barely get away with treating people here as engineering assistants or something like that. > Now, there may have been some confusion in that other thread because I seem to > recall talk of follow-up campaigns (although these may have been related to > other hardware projects, not computer cards). Indeed, the August 2016 campaign > update about the product roadmap had the following to say: > > "We need your backing for this project and the current Computer Card before we > can be in an established financial position to properly evaluate and bring you > these faster Computer Cards." > > https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/product-roadmap > > The crucial question in the context of the above is therefore the following: > who exactly is "we"? If not any of the parties behind the current campaign, > who might it be? Here, I can understand some confusion or a mismatch in > expectations. We as in all of us who want this project to succeed. However also i am taking a liberty and indirectly speaking on behalf of thinkpenguin. > But in any case, this discussion of future sales and products reminded me of a > number of things, the first of which being the board designs: > > "The only exception to this rule to release everything in advance is the PCB > CAD files for the Computer Card. We’re planning to release the PCB CAD files > for the Computer card once sufficient units are hit that ensures any third > party manufacturing runs will not undermine the project’s development or > stability." > > https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/crowdfunding > > Although "the point about the A20 running out of time" [1] has been made > repeatedly since the start of the campaign (this quote being from March 2017 > in the context of suitable NAND ICs), might it be envisaged that the design > files be released for the A20 card to perhaps *stimulate* the project's > development and stability after this campaign concludes? Basically yes however the files will need to come with an agreement that recipients shall respect the Certification Mark which takes absolute precedence over and above the GPL. Complicated. > Has there been any constructive interest from anyone to produce more boards > using this design? A couple of companies approached me, also thinkpenguin have always wanted to stock them. > I see that Olimex have recently introduced a variant of one > of their A20-based products using the compatible T2 SoC [2]. So, the A20 still > has an audience and a commercial life, apparently. 25 second to GUI desktop aint bad. > Another thing I found myself considering is the matter of the other cards > mentioned during the course of the campaign. If they are not going to be > offered via future campaigns, will they be offered by existing partners or > collaborators? For instance: > > http://rhombus-tech.net/ingenic/jz4775/ > http://rhombus-tech.net/rock_chips/rk3288/ > http://rhombus-tech.net/nexell/s5p6818/ The 6818 is a tough one. The 3288 i still have to get 2 of the 4 drams recognised. Rockchip are under NDA with the DDR initialisation so cannot help. The 4775 i need to replace the 24mhz xtal. > The first two of these had been prototyped, as I recall (and has been > documented), and so I imagine that there is some value in seeing them become > products, subject to economic and technical viability, the latter of which > reminding me of the following remarks: > > "The rk3288 is not a low-power chip, and the heat sink supplied (pictured > above), is not adequate for any CPU-intensive activity, quickly throttling > performance when it gets too hot." Thats why you only run it at a lower clock rate. Duh. :) Also has contact with metal case. Will have to see how it goes once up and running. > https://forum.armbian.com/topic/4614-asus-tinker-board/ > > (The above is just an acknowledgement of the difficulties of selecting > products, not an invitation to discuss the details.) Ok > Finally, I realised that the current campaign began almost two years ago. I > think the second anniversary of its launch will be on Friday this coming week. > It would be interesting to hear any reflections on the position of this > initiative two years on, whether (and how) the roadmap might change, and what > still needs to be done to bring this modular computing vision to fruition. Good idea > Apologies if I missed various updates or announcements that happen to answer > some of my questions! No pretty insightful and very helpful as always. > Paul > > [1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/ complexities-of- > hardware-progress-and-travel > > [2] https://olimex.wordpress.com/2018/06/20/a20-olinuxino-lime- revision-h-is- > now-in-stock-the-oshw-linux-computer-now-support-emmc-and-can-be-produced- > with-industrial-grade-temperature-4085c/ > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From paul at boddie.org.uk Mon Jul 16 13:00:00 2018 From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 14:00:00 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Campaign Schedule and Future Sales/Products In-Reply-To: References: <201806242301.10645.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <201807161400.01312.paul@boddie.org.uk> First of all, thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions! On Monday 16. July 2018 04.38.34 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > [Campaign schedule] > Yes. Mike is being extra cautious, hes ordered the full set of components > now for 1000 cards and 500 mds. This is good to know! I imagine that the other offerings, principally the laptop, are on hold pending further development, however. [...] > > Meanwhile, I noticed that the matter of future sales and products arose in > > another thread, with the intention being expressed that others will be > > producing and selling boards in future. > > More that as the certification mark holder i cannot sell at all to anyone > period and so that automatucally means someone else has to. > > I can barely get away with treating people here as engineering assistants > or something like that. [...] > > "We need your backing for this project and the current Computer Card > > before we can be in an established financial position to properly evaluate > > and bring you these faster Computer Cards." > > > > https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/product-roadmap [...] > We as in all of us who want this project to succeed. However also i am > taking a liberty and indirectly speaking on behalf of thinkpenguin. I suppose this makes sense. My impression is that since ThinkPenguin is involved, it was a vehicle for them to assess the viability of the exercise for things that they might sell in the future. So, "we" in the specific context of the campaign seems to mean "you and ThinkPenguin" (as one would expect), even if in the wider context it means a group of other people, too. I only note this because the outcome of the campaign only immediately changes the "financial position" of the broader group in saving them the costs of having to prove the concept themselves. [...] > > Although "the point about the A20 running out of time" [1] has been made > > repeatedly since the start of the campaign (this quote being from March > > 2017 in the context of suitable NAND ICs), might it be envisaged that the > > design files be released for the A20 card to perhaps *stimulate* the > > project's development and stability after this campaign concludes? > > Basically yes however the files will need to come with an agreement that > recipients shall respect the Certification Mark which takes absolute > precedence over and above the GPL. > > Complicated. I think that any approach that keeps the design licensing "clean", whilst upholding the liability protection you need with regard to the "brand", would be acceptable. But I don't profess to be able to tell you what you need to do. > > Has there been any constructive interest from anyone to produce more > > boards using this design? > > A couple of companies approached me, also thinkpenguin have always wanted > to stock them. OK. This is very reassuring. From what you have said above and earlier, these companies will have to take control of the production and retailing. I guess that ThinkPenguin, as being part of this campaign, are in a position to do just that without any awkward contractual complications. [...] > > Another thing I found myself considering is the matter of the other cards > > mentioned during the course of the campaign. If they are not going to be > > offered via future campaigns, will they be offered by existing partners > > or collaborators? For instance: > > > > http://rhombus-tech.net/ingenic/jz4775/ > > http://rhombus-tech.net/rock_chips/rk3288/ > > http://rhombus-tech.net/nexell/s5p6818/ > > The 6818 is a tough one. The 3288 i still have to get 2 of the 4 drams > recognised. Rockchip are under NDA with the DDR initialisation so cannot > help. The 4775 i need to replace the 24mhz xtal. I don't want to speculate unnecessarily here, but I suppose that those interested parties mentioned above must have a route to acquiring the rights to produce boards based on these other designs. Indeed, I think this is the core of the confusion: you apparently cannot routinely make and sell the cards while at the same time being the custodian of the certification mark. So, people like me might wonder what all these boards are good for. But it seems that you might be in a position to produce designs that others can make and sell, albeit doing so in a distinct role from that of custodian. Obviously, others might make their own designs eventually, but a selection of initial designs that others might be able to acquire helps to prove the concept. I hope that this is a reasonable interpretation of the situation. Apologies if this has just restated something that was already obvious to most people. Paul From luke.leighton at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 15:18:39 2018 From: luke.leighton at gmail.com (lkcl) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 15:18:39 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Liberapay is in trouble In-Reply-To: <5b4c96f7.1c69fb81.987d5.2e37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5b4c96f7.1c69fb81.987d5.2e37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: whoops... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Liberapay Support Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 2:00 PM Subject: Liberapay is in trouble To: lkcl Our payment processor (Mangopay) is throwing us out, so we recommend that you evacuate the money from your account before July 26th. Clicking on the link above will bring you to a new page titled “Emptying your wallet” and ask you to choose between two options. If you use Liberapay as a donor the first choice is recommended, especially if you wish to continue using Liberapay. This first option distributes all the money from your wallet to the people who would have normally received it over time. The recipients will be able to see that this sudden burst of income corresponds to multiple weeks of donations. For example, if you’re donating $1 per week to 2 creators, and you have $40 in your wallet, then each creator will receive $20, and 20 weeks from now you’ll receive our usual email reminding you that it’s time to add money again. Please note that the disbursement may fail for various reasons. If you get an error message like “The attempt to distribute all the money in your wallet failed: XX.XX remains.” then the problem is probably on the recipient side, for example someone who hasn’t filled the identity form or a team that hasn’t defined how the income should be split between the members. The other option is to get your money back, if possible through a refund, otherwise by withdrawing it to your bank account. If you receive donations on Liberapay you may want to wait a week before withdrawing your income in order to give your patrons a chance to transfer the remaining of their donations from their wallets to yours. We’ll inform you as soon as the integration of a new payment processor is complete, and tell you if there’s anything you need to do to start receiving donations on Liberapay again. If you’re a member of a team, you should make sure that your take is set and up-to-date. You can do that from your “Receiving” page. You can find more information in this blog post, and as always you can reply to this email if you need help. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 17:46:35 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 10:46:35 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Campaign Schedule and Future Sales/Products In-Reply-To: References: <201806242301.10645.paul@boddie.org.uk> Message-ID: <5FBBAA60-E08C-4FF0-956B-18E4DE451DBA@gmail.com> >> On Jul 15, 2018, at 20:38, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > […] > Yes. Mike is being extra cautious, hes ordered the full set of components > now for 1000 cards and 500 mds. By "mds" I guess you mean "microdesktops"? This was the gist of my earlier question regarding the status of microdesktops. I was wondering where we were in regard to ordering parts, fabricating circuit boards, etc. for the microdesktop as I saw issues which could be addressed by creating a v1.8 schematic, BOM, and layout. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 17:59:13 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 10:59:13 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2018, at 03:19, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:57 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: >> >> By the way, what is the status of the microdesktop >> design v1.7? Have you already invested in parts (specifically >> the 2x10 header) and/or circuit boards? > > yep all good. the funds that were transferred to mike 18+ months ago > ($60k) are down to around $45k now and he's got most of that left with > which to order components for the 1.7 md and 2.7.5 card. I was asking with regard to the possibility of releasing a microdesktop v1.8 with a few refinements (presumably electrical/electronic changes that fit within the same form factor, id est, no change to the case). Why? 1. Open up more possibilities for experimentation by tripling the number of GPIO lines available at expansion connector(2 → 6). 2. Add soft-start to the power regulator for 3.3V supply. 3. Support VESA DDC Plug and Play monitor detection regardless of power-up order between monitor and computer.[1] 4. Improve signal quality (and reduce radiated/coupled EMI) for VGA interface. 5. Improve Electro-Static Discharge protection (page 1 of the schematic says: “TODO: ESD protection”). How? 1. Bring the remaining 4 GPIO lines from the EOMA68 connector (J14 pins 20,54,21,55) to the expansion header(J5). Dropping VESA_SCL and VESA_SDA lines from J5 (available and used on VGA connector J4) gets us two pins for free. Then we either get a larger connector (2x11 instead of 2x10), find two other signals to drop from the expansion header (EOMA68-I2C_SCL, EOMA68-I2C_SDA which are connected to the serial EEPROM for chassis identification?), or decide we are happy to have doubled the GPIO presence (2 → 4) and stop. 2. Add a 10K Ohm resistor between +5V and Enable(pin 1) on U9. 3. Add another SY6280 current limiter for +5V and connect to VGA pin 9 (VESA power). Seems to be some difference of opinion on current requirements: 50mA[2], 300mA-1000mA[1]. If we were to limit at 300mA, it should easily supply the needs of I2C serial EEPROM and probably not over-tax our power supply. 4. Route signals as high-speed/frequency pairs.[1] A. Change the name of VGA pins(J4): pin Name 5 HSYNC_RTN 6 RED_RTN 7 GREEN_RTN 8 BLUE_RTN 9 PWR 10 VSYNC_DDC_RTN B. Make sure the following pairs are routed as microstrip pairs from connector pins to signal driver: VGA_ROUT/VGA_R(1), RED_RTN(6) VGA_GOUT/VGA_G(2), GREEN_RTN(7) VGA_BOUT/VGA_B(3), BLUE_RTN(8) VGAHSYNC/VGA_HSYNC(13), HSYNC_RTN(5) VGAVSYNC/VGA_VSYNC(14), VSYNC_DDC_RTN(10) Return lines should connect to ground pins of signal driver and/or ground side of power supply decoupling capacitor at signal driver. The first three pairs (video lines) should be over unbroken ground plane as they are the highest-frequency lines (12.6MHz-388MHz depending on video mode). Add VREFTTL decoupling capacitor next to R12 and R8 (pull-ups for VESA_SCL and VESA_SDA) then route the following pairs from VGA connector to pull-ups/decoupling capacitor ground: VESA_SDA/SDA(12), VSYNC_DDC_RTN(10) VESA_SCL/SCL(15), VSYNC_DDC_RTN(10) 5. Filter VGA cable shield connection to ground with ferrite beads (J4 pins 16,17). Likewise USB2 ports (J11, J3) pins M0 and M1. Also EOMA68 connector (J14) pins “0”, “0/2”, if those are connector shield connections? What are J14 pins 73 and 74? (They are labelled “GND” but left unconnected?) We don't have a metal chassis here to connect the shields directly to. If we did, I'd suggest connecting shields to chassis ground and then ferrite bead to separate chassis ground from power/signal ground. For VESA_SDA and VESA_SCL, add diode limiters connected to ground similar to ESD117-ESD123 on the SD bus lines provided the diode-limiting voltage is greater than VREFTTL nominal range. Otherwise use BAT54S connected between ground and VREFTTL. Add BAT54S connected between ground and USB2VBUS across USB2 data lines EOMA68-DM0, EOMA68-DP0, DM2, DP2. Just some thoughts. ;>) Richard References: [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VGA_connector [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_Data_Channel From eaterjolly at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 18:17:37 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 13:17:37 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Liberapay is in trouble In-Reply-To: References: <5b4c96f7.1c69fb81.987d5.2e37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I disagree with the decision to disable the wallet. While that limits the type of payment processors, that is exactly the type of escrow function that should become popular with the advent of cryptocurrency. Ultimately forcing every earthly individual to act as financier and budgetor, isn't a neurologically efficient way of doing things. In other words it wastes people's brain space. In the future, average employees should find much more economic stability if they are paid on a daily basis, rather than a weekly, monthly, or even semi-annual basis'es. Wallets may be more trouble from an operational software standpoint, however morally quite worth it from an individual's stability standpoint. From crimier at yandex.ru Tue Jul 17 14:02:01 2018 From: crimier at yandex.ru (=?utf-8?B?UGnEjXVnaW5zIEFyc2VuaWpz?=) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:02:01 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7209211531832521@iva4-6d7004ac8463.qloud-c.yandex.net> Some thoughts: > 3. Add another SY6280 current limiter for +5V and connect to VGA pin > 9 (VESA power). Seems to be some difference of opinion on current > requirements: 50mA[2], 300mA-1000mA[1]. If we were to limit at > 300mA, it should easily supply the needs of I2C serial EEPROM and > probably not over-tax our power supply. I've also seen the VGA/HDMI +5V used to power various converters (most often, HDMI->VGA, but I imagine the inverse is sometimes used as well). > For VESA_SDA and VESA_SCL, add diode limiters connected to ground > similar to ESD117-ESD123 on the SD bus lines provided the > diode-limiting voltage is greater than VREFTTL nominal range. > Otherwise use BAT54S connected between ground and VREFTTL. Is it not possible that VESA_SDA and VESA_SCL are 5V? If so, they could require level shifting from 5V, am I wrong here? Cheers! Arsenijs From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 01:42:51 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:42:51 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: <7209211531832521@iva4-6d7004ac8463.qloud-c.yandex.net> References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> <7209211531832521@iva4-6d7004ac8463.qloud-c.yandex.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 7:02 AM, Pičugins Arsenijs wrote: > > Some thoughts: > > > 3. Add another SY6280 current limiter for +5V and connect to VGA pin > > 9 (VESA power). Seems to be some difference of opinion on current > > requirements: 50mA[2], 300mA-1000mA[1]. If we were to limit at > > 300mA, it should easily supply the needs of I2C serial EEPROM and > > probably not over-tax our power supply. > > I've also seen the VGA/HDMI +5V used to power various converters > (most often, HDMI->VGA, but I imagine the inverse is sometimes used > as well). I agree. I designed a converter that was powered by VGA DDC pin 9 power or, in the absence of that, the VESA DDC SDA and SCL pull-up, or the VGA horizontal and vertical synchronization signals. I don't remember exactly how much power it used but it was relatively efficient as I used low-power CMOS PAL (Programmable Array Logic, precursor to FPGA's). Basically its largest-current operating mode was driving to TTL loads across the video cable. > > For VESA_SDA and VESA_SCL, add diode limiters connected to ground > > similar to ESD117-ESD123 on the SD bus lines provided the > > diode-limiting voltage is greater than VREFTTL nominal range. > > Otherwise use BAT54S connected between ground and VREFTTL. > > Is it not possible that VESA_SDA and VESA_SCL are 5V? If so, they could > require level shifting from 5V, am I wrong here? It turns out VESA DDC uses I2C signalling.[1] I2C signalling is bi-directional open drain or open collector so the high state is due to a pull-up resistor. The I2C bus voltage can be +5 V or +3.3 V, although other voltages are permitted.[2] All the devices on the bus have to tolerate the bus voltage. In my experience, the VESA DDC reference design used a pull-up supply of +5 V. The EOMA68 card doesn't have to drive it that high, simply go hi-Z and the pull-up resistor in the microdesktop will pull it that high. But the EOMA68 card will have to tolerate +5 V on those two lines (VESA_SDA, VESA_SCL) or we jump into the tricky area of logic-level translation for bi-directional open-drain signals. Good observations. Thanks Arsenijs! References: [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_Data_Channel [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%C2%B2C From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 01:49:56 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:49:56 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> <7209211531832521@iva4-6d7004ac8463.qloud-c.yandex.net> Message-ID: Addendum Why? 1. Make VESA DDC lines conform to VESA DDC spec. (VDD=5.0V, I2C signalling)[1] 2. Respect VREFTTL in the range of 3.3-5.0V on EOMA side of VESA DDC lines. 3. Respect EOMA requirement that all lines except EOMA I2C be tri-stated at power on. How? 1. Connect pull-up resistors for VESA_SDA(R8) and VESA_SCL(R12) to VESA_PWR (+5.0V) instead of VREFTTL. Maximum current requirement on VESA_PWR is ~670uA. 2. Implement circuit in attached diagram[EOMA_I2C_circuit_sketch_small.png] on each of SDA and SCL. I have attached a spreadsheet[EOMA_I2C_VESA_calc.pdf] showing how this accommodates the I2C signalling for VDD=3.3V=VREFTTL and VDD=5.0V.[2] It also accommodates the EOMA68 VREFTTL input levels by not allowing the EOMA side of the signal to exceed one Schottky diode drop(0.3V) above VDD=3.3V. 3. Enable the current limiting regulator (SY6280) for VESA_PWR (+5.0V on VGA pin 9) with latch of LCDDE when it first goes active (line coming from EOMA68 connector). References: [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_Data_Channel [2] http://www.nxp.com/documents/user_manual/UM10204.pdf From crimier at yandex.ru Wed Jul 18 02:04:40 2018 From: crimier at yandex.ru (=?utf-8?B?UGnEjXVnaW5zIEFyc2VuaWpz?=) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 04:04:40 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> <7209211531832521@iva4-6d7004ac8463.qloud-c.yandex.net> Message-ID: <8852201531875880@myt3-12f13c3c6b95.qloud-c.yandex.net> > 2. Implement circuit in attached > diagram[EOMA_I2C_circuit_sketch_small.png] ... Did not get your attachments. I'm thinking they were scrubbed by the ML software? Maybe post a link - imgur/other sharing service? Arsenijs From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 02:20:01 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 19:20:01 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: <8852201531875880@myt3-12f13c3c6b95.qloud-c.yandex.net> References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> <7209211531832521@iva4-6d7004ac8463.qloud-c.yandex.net> <8852201531875880@myt3-12f13c3c6b95.qloud-c.yandex.net> Message-ID: <6C1642B1-7781-4432-AB3F-44A1748DC08B@gmail.com> On Jul 17, 2018, at 19:04, Pičugins Arsenijs wrote: >> 2. Implement circuit in attached >> diagram[EOMA_I2C_circuit_sketch_small.png] ... > > Did not get your attachments. I'm thinking they were scrubbed > by the ML software? Maybe post a link - imgur/other sharing > service? > > Arsenijs > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 02:30:09 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 19:30:09 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: <8852201531875880@myt3-12f13c3c6b95.qloud-c.yandex.net> References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> <7209211531832521@iva4-6d7004ac8463.qloud-c.yandex.net> <8852201531875880@myt3-12f13c3c6b95.qloud-c.yandex.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 7:04 PM, Pičugins Arsenijs wrote: > > > 2. Implement circuit in attached > > diagram[EOMA_I2C_circuit_sketch_small.png] ... > > Did not get your attachments. I'm thinking they were scrubbed > by the ML software? Maybe post a link - imgur/other sharing > service? It is likely the PDF was scrubbed. The PNG got into moderation because it was too large. So I sent them both to the E-mail address at the bottom of the mailing list signature, below: > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jul 18 02:43:03 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 02:43:03 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> <7209211531832521@iva4-6d7004ac8463.qloud-c.yandex.net> Message-ID: Richard can you please edit community_ideas micrideksoo oage rhuombustech maintain all of this there revisioons to revisions of email knoen to be not a sustainable way to track detailed important information On Wednesday, July 18, 2018, Richard Wilbur wrote: > Addendum > > Why? > 1. Make VESA DDC lines conform to VESA DDC spec. (VDD=5.0V, I2C > signalling)[1] > 2. Respect VREFTTL in the range of 3.3-5.0V on EOMA side of VESA DDC > lines. > 3. Respect EOMA requirement that all lines except EOMA I2C be tri-stated > at power on. > > How? > 1. Connect pull-up resistors for VESA_SDA(R8) and VESA_SCL(R12) to > VESA_PWR (+5.0V) instead of VREFTTL. Maximum current requirement on > VESA_PWR is ~670uA. > 2. Implement circuit in attached > diagram[EOMA_I2C_circuit_sketch_small.png] on each of SDA and SCL. I have > attached a spreadsheet[EOMA_I2C_VESA_calc.pdf] showing how this > accommodates the I2C signalling for VDD=3.3V=VREFTTL and VDD=5.0V.[2] It > also accommodates the EOMA68 VREFTTL input levels by not allowing the EOMA > side of the signal to exceed one Schottky diode drop(0.3V) above VDD=3.3V. > 3. Enable the current limiting regulator (SY6280) for VESA_PWR (+5.0V on > VGA pin 9) with latch of LCDDE when it first goes active (line coming from > EOMA68 connector). > > References: > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_Data_Channel > [2] http://www.nxp.com/documents/user_manual/UM10204.pdf > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 02:43:39 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 19:43:39 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> <7209211531832521@iva4-6d7004ac8463.qloud-c.yandex.net> <8852201531875880@myt3-12f13c3c6b95.qloud-c.yandex.net> Message-ID: Here are links to the files: ftp://lists.phcomp.co.uk/files/arm-netbook/EOMA_I2C_VESA_calc.pdf ftp://lists.phcomp.co.uk/files/arm-netbook/EOMA_I2C_circuit_small.png These are evidently by default good till 18 August 2018. If they are still cogent to the discussion I will try to keep them around longer. Richard From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 02:48:14 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 19:48:14 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> <7209211531832521@iva4-6d7004ac8463.qloud-c.yandex.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 7:43 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > Richard can you please edit community_ideas micrideksoo oage rhuombustech > maintain all of this there revisioons to revisions of email knoen to be not > a sustainable way to track detailed important information Luke, That's a great idea. I was just noticing how the updates weren't fitting into the original so well and thinking I didn't know which wiki page on which to write stuff. Thank you for answering my question before I had a chance to ask it! Richard From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jul 18 14:15:34 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:15:34 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Campaign Schedule and Future Sales/Products In-Reply-To: <5FBBAA60-E08C-4FF0-956B-18E4DE451DBA@gmail.com> References: <201806242301.10645.paul@boddie.org.uk> <5FBBAA60-E08C-4FF0-956B-18E4DE451DBA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Monday, July 16, 2018, Richard Wilbur wrote: > > >> On Jul 15, 2018, at 20:38, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > > […] > > Yes. Mike is being extra cautious, hes ordered the full set of components > > now for 1000 cards and 500 mds. > > By "mds" I guess you mean "microdesktops"? This was the gist of my > earlier question regarding the status of microdesktops. I was wondering > where we were in regard to ordering parts, fabricating circuit boards, etc. > for the microdesktop as I saw issues which could be addressed by creating a > v1.8 schematic, BOM, and layout. I know. It should have been 8 to 10 months ago. Cant delay now. Do after. Just how it is. Document, plan carefully. Nextv batch 1.8 > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 15:19:51 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:19:51 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Campaign Schedule and Future Sales/Products In-Reply-To: References: <201806242301.10645.paul@boddie.org.uk> <5FBBAA60-E08C-4FF0-956B-18E4DE451DBA@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 18, 2018, at 07:15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> On Monday, July 16, 2018, Richard Wilbur wrote: […] >> I was wondering >> where we were in regard to ordering parts, fabricating circuit boards, etc. >> for the microdesktop as I saw issues which could be addressed by creating a >> v1.8 schematic, BOM, and layout. > > > I know. It should have been 8 to 10 months ago. Cant delay now. Do after. > Just how it is. Document, plan carefully. Nextv batch 1.8 Sounds great! I'll document things on the wiki and look forward to the shipping date for v1.7! From mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 01:07:50 2018 From: mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com (Mike Henry) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 19:07:50 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Fwd: Liberapay is in trouble In-Reply-To: References: <5b4c96f7.1c69fb81.987d5.2e37SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: If you are interested in following the discussion about the future of librepay, you can follow their github issue here: https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com/issues/1171 From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 22:11:28 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 17:11:28 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative Message-ID: So the thought is pretty simple. A monofunction PCB that when power is supplied from the HDMI, generates a private key signature, displays it as a QR code for a few moments, then plays whatever video is stored on nand. The QR code confirms the legitimacy or official-ness of the copy. Encourage copying, modifying, as well as redistributing the content. However build a culture of the 'Unpause-able Player Stick': Friends should still feel obligated to support the art through peer pressure to use one of these sticks that can prove its legitimacy, during ritualistic communal watchings. Airgapped for security and durability (viruses can still damage hardware after all) From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 23:25:31 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 16:25:31 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Sounds interesting. This sounds like a bit of 'how'. The 'why' is alluded to in the title but not so much in the body. I can understand DRM-free to allow more freedom to user. What I'm missing is more of what advantages the user reaps from using this device. Does the user purchase, rent, or borrow the stick? Who can load content onto it? What problem(s) does it solve? What do you mean by "Merch Alternative"? From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 23:48:36 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:48:36 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: The advantage is social, stating "I've supported this art, this stick generates the QR code that proves that" "Merch Alternative" I mean like instead of DRM Blu-rays or DVDs etc. The device being airgapped so that the only input is power, should socially suggest that one can't be tampered with or forged (i.e. by extracting a signing key). This solves the problem that many aren't reminded of the importance of supporting artists that create the art that they use. It adds an element to the conversation that helps individuals find an excuse to remind each other to pay monetary tribute to source artists (including film makers, animators, audio book authors, etc). As a dual function, the signing key could serve as a cryptocurrency wallet. So simultaneously while checking the authenticity of one friend's contribution, the friend that's doing the checking can also make a contribution so as not to appear hypocritical. From singpolyma at singpolyma.net Mon Jul 23 00:03:13 2018 From: singpolyma at singpolyma.net (Stephen Paul Weber) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:03:13 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180722230313.6074454.30600.82008@singpolyma.net> ‎> "Merch Alternative" I mean like instead of DRM Blu-rays or DVDs etc. Blu-rays and DVDs are essentially dead tech at this point. I have a hard time even giving away free DVDs anymore because people don't have players.‎ From eaterjolly at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 03:00:13 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 22:00:13 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: <20180722230313.6074454.30600.82008@singpolyma.net> References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> <20180722230313.6074454.30600.82008@singpolyma.net> Message-ID: On 7/22/18, Stephen Paul Weber wrote: > Blu-rays and DVDs are essentially dead tech This depends highly on the region. Most fictional media still grossly depends on the sale of DVDs and Blu-rays, where-ever marketing for such merch turns out effective. (i.e. Japan, major cities with relevant clubs, etc) Consider how much film still doesn't exist on streaming services, and only get royalties from broadcasts and DVD sales. Many truckers for example most of whom stay many nights alone in motels between drop-sights, feel perfectly obliged to surrender an hour's wage to a convenience story in exchange for a promising unacclaimed feature film to fall asleep to once or twice a week. https://www.the-numbers.com/weekly-dvd-sales-chart The monetary contribution per fan, can swing an absurdly wild standard deviation. The very concept of merchandise means subsidizing an art with the sale of trinkets which creatively remind of that art. The cycle can be self-perpetuating when other's who are reminded then go and feel they need more reminders. This gets to be were collectable clocks, dolls, posters, mugs, postcards, shirts, blankets, backpacks, etc, gets wildly overdone. At the end of the day, this is just a throwback and re-imagining of the old DVD/VHS shelf. A physical location a person would go to see their options of what to watch side-by-side, to pick them out, to look at the cover and decide if the mood fits the situation. Instead of a shelf, these sticks could go in a pot in on a coffee table, in front of a couch, next to a bed, or, if someone was feeling particularly disruptive and monetarily carefree, next to the front door to give away or tossed to an audience at a convention, or perhaps over or under the main counter at a library. I just want to take a moment to appreciate how wasteful the consumerism I just described is, from packaging to raw minerals to predictable global drama maintaining game theory which enables sourcing of these materials from "pre-warp civilizations". I'm not condoning this type of economic behavior, however merely commenting this is how global culture is and, if we want to minimize that, we have to start "similar but different" and move gradually where we would like to be from there. The tricky part is that every attempt "similar but different" before has been historically co-opted and lost its original sense of direction. (which few people appreciate the risk of losing themselves to the sheer complexity of the world, even when conclusions derived from naivety ironically turn out more accurate to reality than conclusions derived after having encountered many more parts of the world already [ this can be since the more naive one more easily takes the role of an isolated observer, than one who has talked personally or had personal dealing with many different cultures. Much like the blind leading the blind. ]) From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 02:46:36 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:46:36 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5177943D-A9D8-477A-B2A5-332B44F93B59@gmail.com> > On Jul 22, 2018, at 15:11, Jean Flamelle wrote: > > A monofunction PCB that when power is supplied from the HDMI, > generates a private key signature, displays it as a QR code for a few > moments, then plays whatever video is stored on nand. > > The QR code confirms the legitimacy or official-ness of the copy. This sounds similar, in concept at least, to something like a GPG signature over the presentation content. The processing to calculate the signature over a feature-length high-definition video (Blueray movie ~15-25GB[max single layer])[1] to verify authenticity is significant. I would recommend implementing the algorithm in FPGA (eventually ASIC?) to speed the calculation. I don't know what calculation time would be acceptable. We can probably buy some user patience with a real, honest, linear-response progress bar and possibly a countdown timer. Let's say we have NAND read rates that allow us to pull 1GB/s into the signature processor and we can process data as fast as it arrives. That would give us 1s of calculation time for every 1GB of content or 15-25 seconds to calculate the QR code. Samsung has a 32GB chip with a high-speed serial interface capable of 880MB/s in sequential reads.[2] That's ~88% of the speed we talked about above. (25GB transfer in 28.4s) And it is in mass production! The size sounds good, too: 11.5x13x1.2mm (I had some time to burn while riding around with my family to different appointments and waiting while the girls were in lessons.) Richard References: [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray [2] https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/estorage/eufs/ From eaterjolly at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 06:13:12 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 01:13:12 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: <5177943D-A9D8-477A-B2A5-332B44F93B59@gmail.com> References: <5177943D-A9D8-477A-B2A5-332B44F93B59@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/23/18, Richard Wilbur wrote: > I would recommend implementing the algorithm in FPGA (eventually ASIC?) Added to my bottomless list of stuff to do that requiring skills I hope to acquire. Sounds like an incredibly simple enough project to learn HDL while doing. I appreciate the answer : D From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Tue Jul 24 13:27:30 2018 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 08:27:30 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The advantage is social, stating "I've supported this art, > this stick generates the QR code that proves that" I still don't understand in how your device is supposed to state that. All you have in your device is a bit-stream which the end-user can't trust, so in order to validate any kind of cryptographic data, you'd need some external "trusted" reference (PGP public keys, TLA certs, ...). At that point, the external verifier could just as well read the whole bitstream on its own (i.e. use a standard USB flash stick where you store the data and a signature alongside), couldn't it? As for "displays it as a QR code", if it's displayed on the screen where the video is being played, then it's trivial to fake by putting the QR image in the video itself. > This solves the problem that many aren't reminded of the importance of > supporting artists that create the art that they use. You don't seem to live in the same world as mine: in my world, the MPAA and other control-obsessed profiteers spend millions of dollars reminding people of that as an excuse for their DRM abuses. Stefan From rhkramer at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 14:25:38 2018 From: rhkramer at gmail.com (rhkramer at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:25:38 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201807240925.38250.rhkramer@gmail.com> I don't think I understand (even though I read all the followups in the thead up to Stefan Monnier's post of Tue Jul 24 08:27:30 2018, so I've added some comments / questions below: On Sunday, July 22, 2018 05:11:28 PM Jean Flamelle wrote: > So the thought is pretty simple. > > A monofunction PCB that when power is supplied from the HDMI, > generates a private key signature, displays it as a QR code for a few > moments, then plays whatever video is stored on nand. > > The QR code confirms the legitimacy or official-ness of the copy. Where is the nand (on which the video is stored) -- is it on this stick, or is this sort of a multi-use stick that can check the video on other media for "compliance" with DRM? > Encourage copying, modifying, as well as redistributing the content. > However build a culture of the 'Unpause-able Player Stick': What do you mean by unpause-able? Do you mean you couldn't pause the video and restart it? > Friends should still feel obligated to support the art through peer > pressure to use one of these sticks that can prove its legitimacy, > during ritualistic communal watchings. > > Airgapped for security and durability (viruses can still damage > hardware after all) > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 16:41:38 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:41:38 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 22, 2018, at 16:48, Jean Flamelle wrote: > > The device being airgapped so that the only input is power, should > socially suggest that one can't be tampered with or forged (i.e. by > extracting a signing key). One fly in the ointment is that, at least according to my understanding, power on the HDMI is part of VESA (Video Electronics Standards Association) DDC (Display Data Channel) support. As such the power is supplied by the video signal source which is the I2C bus master on the DDC bus. This applies to all of the incarnations of VESA DDC on VGA, DVI, and HDMI. Thus, in order for us to be able to use the HDMI power pin as an input, we need to be connecting that pin to some other HDMI signal source (computer, DVD player, Blu-ray player, et cetera). Hence our smallest form factor for HDMI-only connections would be an HDMI(male)-HDMI(female) adapter to plug in between an HDMI source (as above, for power) and an HDMI sink (monitor, television, projector, et cetera). For convenience, I recommend connecting between the HDMI source and the HDMI cable going to the HDMI sink. Another option would be to use a USB connection for power. Not as elegant as the HDMI stick but USB power is relatively ubiquitous for charging mobile devices. And it doesn't require a separate HDMI source just for power. In fact, a lot of televisions with HDMI ports also sport USB ports so a USB cable would be sufficient. Furthermore, if power is truly our only input we'll have a hard time sending out a signal which is compatible with a wide range of displays unless we choose the lowest common resolution/color depth. We could adapt to the best display mode that the display offers, and that our board can generate, if we connected to the bi-directional VESA DDC bus and read the display's capabilities. Richard From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 17:40:13 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 10:40:13 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2018, at 15:11, Jean Flamelle wrote: > > Encourage copying, modifying, as well as redistributing the content. By this do you mean an unencrypted output over HDMI (without HDCP in other words)? > However build a culture of the 'Unpause-able Player Stick': How do we "encourage copying, modifying, as well as redistributing the content" from an 'Unpause-able Player Stick' that has "air-gap" security? Who can copy, modify, or redistribute the content? What is the utility of making it 'Unpause-able'? That was always one of the advantages I saw to having user control: you can adapt the viewing experience to the realities of your life. It seems to me that a lot more variety of materials will be required to make one of these sticks than an optical disc which is mostly one type of plastic. That would seem to make the stick more difficult to recycle than the disc. If the stick can't be loaded with new content, then its use cycle will be closer to a non-rewritable optical disc. What if we created an open video format that allowed sections of a work to be attributed to the original author/creator? Sort of a digital credits meta-data list. Could also be useful for still images, audio, and possibly other media. A method to identify some portion of the whole work and record attribution information. Editing tools would be very useful in managing this data. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Jul 25 07:12:58 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 07:12:58 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 4:41 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > One fly in the ointment is that, at least according to my understanding, > power on the HDMI is part of VESA (Video Electronics Standards Association) > DDC (Display Data Channel) support. > As such the power is supplied by the video signal source > which is the I2C bus master on the DDC bus. > This applies to all of the incarnations of VESA DDC on VGA, DVI, and HDMI. it's also only a maximum of something like 400mA. l. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 09:11:24 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 04:11:24 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Stefan: > All you have in your device is a bit-stream which the end-user can't trust Not really, since (hopefully) they buy the device through trusted channels (i.e. a local store with cash). The cryptographic key, (hopefully) proves that the device was flashed by the makers of whatever video is loaded on the device, and maybe is linked to a bitcoin address or something to donate. The assumption here remains, all content on the device is "free culture". rhkramer: > Where is the nand (on which the video is stored) -- is it on this stick, or is > this sort of a multi-use stick that can check the video on other media for > "compliance" with DRM? Not a compliance thing; yes---unfortunately---this incentivizes excess/waste. As Richard said: > It seems to me that a lot more variety of materials will be required to make > one of these sticks than an optical disc which is mostly one type of plastic. > That would seem to make the stick more difficult to recycle than the disc. However: > If the stick can't be loaded with new content, then its use cycle will be closer > to a non-rewritable optical disc. Optimally, the device could be re-flashed.. only the cryptographic key would need to be "write-only", preferably with erasure triggered by any change to the video storage. Stefan: > You don't seem to live in the same world as mine: in my world, the MPAA > and other control-obsessed profiteers spend millions of dollars > reminding people of that as an excuse for their DRM abuses. Yes, but we want to do away with that, correct? So we need to replace that with a more ethical procedure, one which allows cultural content to be "free as in freedom" while simultaneously ensuring such cultural content actually exist in a quality and quantity which allows earthlings to say they actually have a set of cultures. Moreover creativity and ideas spread, so inventive non-destructive conflict perpetuates with the culture and we don't descend into an amoral anarchy with theft and violence just because struggle to find meaning without theft and violence. Free culture without the moral imperative of "get as much culture as we can possibly get" would be a pretty shallow ethic, from my pov. Richard: > How do we "encourage copying, modifying, as well as redistributing the content" > from an 'Unpause-able Player Stick' that has "air-gap" security? The security bit is for the private key and hardware integrity. The 'unpause-able' bit adds to that, however more critically makes the nature of device immediately recognize-able and encourages use for social events. Richard: > What is the utility of making it 'Unpause-able'? > That was always one of the advantages I saw to having user control: > you can adapt the viewing experience to the realities of your life. If someone can simply copy the stream onto whatever other device, then the restriction is basically self-imposed. Playing upon power-on, without pause, and allowing no scrolling through the stream, would make this "play stick" a cold arbiter for social gatherings, so participants can focus on the event or whatever the video shows them rather than viewing it all with as minimal overlap as possible or knowledge gaps. The assumption remains that, if someone is leaving the area, any argument had over pausing or rewatching what they had missed should be instantly moot, unless they feel they can push the point to rewatch from the beginning. If the video is paused, then someone is waiting for someone else. Not fun. Low-brow party etiquette. Having differing knowledge gaps between participants of the gathering, incentivizes using conversation rather than technology to fill in those gaps. > if power is truly our only input we'll have a hard time sending out a signal > which is compatible with a wide range of displays This bit is depressing. Bitstreams should be rendered as vector graphics, and monitors should have built-in chips to do whatever conversions are necessary to get the pixels to light. > Sort of a digital credits meta-data list. I see where you are going with this. Someone could separate the audio, between x and x frames too and apply credits to that portion of the over all file. Still images, as you mentioned, could be the same way. Clever, I vote converting all video bitstreams to animated vector graphics takes 100% priority! +1 internet Hezzah! From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Wed Jul 25 14:14:06 2018 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:14:06 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> All you have in your device is a bit-stream which the end-user can't trust > Not really, since (hopefully) they buy the device through trusted > channels (i.e. a local store with cash). If they trust the channel, then what additional guarantee does the "cryptographic key" provide? > The cryptographic key, (hopefully) proves that the device was flashed > by the makers of whatever video is loaded on the device, and maybe is > linked to a bitcoin address or something to donate. "Cryptographic key" is much too vague for the above to really make sense. A "cryptographic key" is just that: a key. If I sell you a car along with its key, it doesn't prove I haven't stolen the car (e.g. because I stole the key at the same time, or I changed the lock). > The assumption here remains, all content on the device is "free culture". Then why not just add a "Free Culture" blurb at the beginning of the video promoting the idea, and be done with it? Using any kind of method to try and prove authenticity, is counter productive: at best it legitimizes the hoops to have to go through with DRM-protected crap. > Yes, but we want to do away with that, correct? > So we need to replace that with a more ethical procedure, one which > allows cultural content to be "free as in freedom" while > simultaneously ensuring such cultural content actually exist in a > quality and quantity which allows earthlings to say they actually have > a set of cultures. Moreover creativity and ideas spread, so inventive > non-destructive conflict perpetuates with the culture and we don't > descend into an amoral anarchy with theft and violence just because > struggle to find meaning without theft and violence. You're thinking just like the MPAA teaches people to think. iTunes's music (as well as loads of other music services, like Bandcamp) seems to prove that the problem DRM claims to want to solve doesn't exist. Thinking that these social problems can be solved via technical means is exactly what got us DRM. Stefan From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 19:08:36 2018 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:08:36 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the best way to support free culture is to find artists that are making it a support them, via sites like liberapay or patreon. The issue here is *not* technical. As Stefan is saying, this is exactly the sort of thinking that got us DRM. Again, find free culture creators and support them (or create some yourself) if you want free culture to grow. Anything else isn't going to do much to change the current situation. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 20:01:33 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:01:33 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: But is it not also an issue of them finding us? We talk for granted that we are all part information researchers. We are justly capable of elaborate standalone complex organized searches through the internet for talent and meaningful message. This not even a tenth of the population involves themselves with, as when was the last anyone saw a piece of media content with more than a million likes and compare that with when anyone has seen a piece of media content with more than 10 million views. The reality remains very few people have the ability, much less the willingness to seek out artists that they could feel deserve their support. As much as marketing should NOT stay a service offered in exchange for fiat (money), the technology for gratis media curation on a large scale does not exist. Sybil (reputation) systems still depend too much on healthy majorities and can't guess the thoughtfulness (or impulsiveness) of a rating given by a user. (Newgrounds.com attempts this by measure quantity rather than quality of experience as a reviewer) Unless artists have the ability to really shove their donate buttons in the faces of regular people, libre models won't scale properly. This remains why patreon advanced our ideological position without doing any more than what paypal was already doing for cheaper. Having a cryptographic key signature, sounds like fancy technology, but all it replaces is a serial number and an on-screen paypal link. The point remains not what technology is used, but how we organize reminders and notices in our economy. Not everyone is a researcher, some people do in fact depend on notices from abstract entity like "the government". If all someone has to do to donate to an artist, is scan an extra QR code at checkout or ask to have their cash converted to cryptocurrency as a part of the store facilitating their donation, and all the store has to do is complete that conversion, plug in the play stick into a device that expects the first frame of the video to be a QR code signature, and transfer the cryptocurrency to that artists wallet, then this makes it so someone doesn't even need a computer to donate to the arts (which they would need to use liberapay or patreon, at least until liberapay implements their api). From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Thu Jul 26 20:36:58 2018 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:36:58 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: > If all someone has to do to donate to an artist, is scan an extra QR > code at checkout or ask to have their cash converted to cryptocurrency So, IIUC you're suggesting the QR to be a (hopefully reliable) way to find the author so as to be able to give him money? I can see why that would be nice, but I don't understand what the cryptography is about (i.e. how will it increase the trustworthiness of the QR)? How would you detect that someone took that video, removed the author's (cryptographic) signature, and put his own (cryptographic) signature on it? Signatures are not useful for that. You'd need something more like "watermarks", but here again the benefit is likely much smaller than the harm. Better just slap a URL/QR inside the video as part of the opening/closing credits. Also instead of watermarks you could try and develop a kind of registration/certification body, so when the end-user wants to donate to A for the movie M, the donation site could warn the user "hmm... according to , movie M was not directed by A but by B, do you still want to donate to A?" Stefan From eaterjolly at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 21:04:47 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 16:04:47 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: It proves the device was loaded by the owner of that private key. That individual can accept accountability for whatever materials exist on that device, indemnifying whatever vendor sells or makes available the device (i.e. a library). If content on the device isn't properly attributed or is non-free used without permission, then governments can investigate the owner of that private key in reliable faith that that individual distributed that content unless their private key was stolen. I'm not supporting that copyright should exist even as an option to those who would like to restrict the yields of their creative efforts, however the economic reality we face includes a lack of social infrastructure for libre artists to mass-distribute the yields of their efforts as well as for individuals to calculate their fiscal honor-obligation to these artists. When talking about these kinds of large scales over-paying artists remains a real possibility with negative consequences all around (including to the artist [consider how winning the lottery affects many in poverty] ). I don't think I'd be the first to suppose that Star Citizen was "too" successful in their fundraising, and feeling an obligation to develop the game quickly hiring too much help, too quickly diluting their original vision. Rigorous attribution enables libre support models: without it, one can only blindly support and hope artistic yields come about. Besides that, transitions to libre support must ensue gradually and old models can't immediately drop out of existence. While artists transition someone needs to accommodate both toxic copyright models as well as healthy libre models. One does not simply get a smoker to stop smoking by depriving them of smokes. This necessary infrastructure should add up to retailers getting used to the idea of facilitating donations. From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Fri Jul 27 21:57:09 2018 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 21:57:09 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: one thing ive wondered about is a https for payment address. so you know the crypto currently address or fait payment info is verified for that person. like you know a https site is the site it says it is. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Sat Jul 28 03:27:47 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 22:27:47 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI Player Stick as DRM-free Merch Alternative In-Reply-To: References: <6010BE01-43BC-4B38-AEBC-FF8EE8CC36AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/27/18, Alexander Ross wrote: > one thing ive wondered about is a https for payment address. so you know > the crypto currently address or fait payment info is verified for that > person. like you know a https site is the site it says it is. A blockchain dao could be setup for people to sign public keys that they confirm. If a large number of people have confirmed one key belongs to one particular person, then the key should be trustworthy, unless something bad happens and people start revoking. From wean.irdeh at gmail.com Sun Jul 29 17:30:29 2018 From: wean.irdeh at gmail.com (Wean Irdeh) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 23:30:29 +0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Linux now boots on 22nm RISC-V Shakti CPU Message-ID: Check out @ShaktiProcessor’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/ShaktiProcessor/status/1022384131064430593?s=09 From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Sun Jul 29 17:41:45 2018 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 12:41:45 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Linux now boots on 22nm RISC-V Shakti CPU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180729164145.22p4xdb7axmanjzw@topoi.pooq.com> On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 11:30:29PM +0700, Wean Irdeh wrote: > Check out @ShaktiProcessor’s Tweet: > https://twitter.com/ShaktiProcessor/status/1022384131064430593?s=09 Is this the project that's going to make millions of computers for the schoolchidren in India? -- hendrik From wean.irdeh at gmail.com Sun Jul 29 18:17:29 2018 From: wean.irdeh at gmail.com (Wean Irdeh) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 00:17:29 +0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Linux now boots on 22nm RISC-V Shakti CPU In-Reply-To: <20180729164145.22p4xdb7axmanjzw@topoi.pooq.com> References: <20180729164145.22p4xdb7axmanjzw@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: I don't know. The processor manufactured in Intel 22nm FinFET low power more information: https://t.co/3DZxxxhUVd (on slide 15) On Sunday, July 29, 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > Is this the project that's going to make millions of computers for the > schoolchidren in India? > > -- hendrik > > > From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Jul 29 20:26:20 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 20:26:20 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Linux now boots on 22nm RISC-V Shakti CPU In-Reply-To: <20180729164145.22p4xdb7axmanjzw@topoi.pooq.com> References: <20180729164145.22p4xdb7axmanjzw@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: Its the one im here in chennai to help with On Sunday, July 29, 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 11:30:29PM +0700, Wean Irdeh wrote: > > Check out @ShaktiProcessor’s Tweet: > > https://twitter.com/ShaktiProcessor/status/1022384131064430593?s=09 > > Is this the project that's going to make millions of computers for the > schoolchidren in India? > > -- hendrik > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From doark at mail.com Sun Jul 29 21:51:03 2018 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 16:51:03 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] riscv-basics.com In-Reply-To: <20180713091846.1771b0d0@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> References: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> <20180713091846.1771b0d0@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> Message-ID: <20180729165103.162cfe9e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> Not to be an annoyance, but you seem to have been so busy that you missed my reply and I do think it was important. Thanks. On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:18:46 -0400 David Niklas wrote: > On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 01:26:35 +0100 > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:11 PM, Richard Wilbur > > wrote: > > > > >> On Jul 10, 2018, at 13:37, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > > >> wrote: interestingly the bullet-points 3 and 5 are > > >> *actuallly legitimate concerns*. the RISC-V Foundation is > > >> over-controlled by UCB Berkeley,[0] via a structure that is similar > > >> to the failed Google Project Ara ("it's open as long as you sign > > >> our secret agreement and don't publish information we don't want > > >> you to"). > > > > > > Are you referring to "Design Assurance"(as 3) and "Security"(as > > > 5)? > > > > fragmentation risk and cost. > > > > > Seems like an advertisement specifically against risc-v by and for > > > ARM. > > > > indeed... one that that has been well-researched and partly has > > merit. other aspects definitely do not. > > > > > I'm sorry to hear about those terms on a project with any > > > pretensions of being "open". > > > > i know. i was... extremely optimistic and hopeful when i started > > hearing about RISC-V, particularly that it was intended to solve mny > > of the issues and mistakes made in RISC design over the past 30+ > > years. > > > > however that quickly turned to shock, then puzzlement, and now i'm > > wondering where to go from here, as i learned over time that the UC B > > team behind RISC-V, although they have achieved absolutely fantastic > > things, are... unable to let go of control of the development process, > > shall we say. > > > > it comes down basically to them being technically brilliant. > > sufficiently brilliant that they are unable to appreciate that other > > people may have very good reasons for wanting to do something quite > > differently from how they envisaged it should be done. > > > > > I thought that riscv was based on "prior art" such that any license that > restricts it would be untenable. > > Assuming that faith in riscv is misplaced, what about Epiphany? The > Parallela (FPGA) board in no longer developed, but the processor is > still an OSS arch, right? > > Thanks From eaterjolly at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 00:25:20 2018 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 19:25:20 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Why Crytek certainly regrets releasing their source code.. Message-ID: In the coming reality where only ventures to extend hardware's usefulness support software development, programmers mostly fulfill roles as "hired guns" like accountants in the days of yester-era so then, seeking to join with Amazon and Microsoft and Google et cet in tasting their SaaSS intoxicated open source future, probably for a first in games history distributed macro-economically invested source code under a mutual promise not to sue license and without NDA. This means from the beginning, there was never any enforceable restriction not to reveal the source code. They marketed their support as hired guns, and sold their code to amazon to release as open source which amazon then co-opt'ed into their SaaSS fetish and initiated a complete rebranding effort unwittingly betraying Crytek. The games company which originally tipped the spear of Crytek's marketing themselves as hired guns, now also betrayed them by embracing amazon's rebranding effort. Crytek dreamed a future where they could customize free as in freedom software to suit whims specified by whatever company offered enough fiat to purchase the respected "hired guns": Crytek. Feeling the bitterness of betrayal they commence an inactionable lawsuit against who supported them the most and where the betrayal stings the most: their hope and their demise, their intimate friend Star Citizen. ... Obviously, this is a mixture of known fact and tongue-and-cheek inferences, which could be true. In case your not well 'versed' on what's happening, all facts mixed in the muddle authoritative sources should be trace-able through these links: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=star+citizen+leonard+french https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/star-citizen-re-built-in-amazons-lumberyard/ From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jul 30 03:35:31 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 03:35:31 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] riscv-basics.com In-Reply-To: <20180729165103.162cfe9e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> References: <10078277.LOUmjI2HBf@aurora> <20180713091846.1771b0d0@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> <20180729165103.162cfe9e@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> Message-ID: On Monday, July 30, 2018, David Niklas wrote: > Not to be an annoyance, but you seem to have been so busy that you missed > my reply and I do think it was important. > > > Yes. Very limited time in chennai. Have to focus -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jul 30 12:51:16 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 12:51:16 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] slashdot submission help needed on IIT Madras RV64 SoC Message-ID: https://slashdot.org/submission/8436790/iit-madras-shakti-group-produce-indias-first-64-bit-soc-risc-v hi can people help hit "+" on this, to help get it onto the front page, many many thanks. From doark at mail.com Mon Jul 30 14:09:32 2018 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 09:09:32 -0400 Subject: [Arm-netbook] slashdot submission help needed on IIT Madras RV64 SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180730090932.373f7356@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 12:51:16 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > https://slashdot.org/submission/8436790/iit-madras-shakti-group-produce-indias-first-64-bit-soc-risc-v > > hi can people help hit "+" on this, to help get it onto the front > page, many many thanks. I upvoted it, but please clarify the article about it's license, is it opensource or free as in freedom (as per my response to riscv-basics.com)?! That is very important! Thanks From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jul 30 14:34:54 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 14:34:54 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] slashdot submission help needed on IIT Madras RV64 SoC In-Reply-To: <20180730090932.373f7356@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> References: <20180730090932.373f7356@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> Message-ID: Bsd. On Monday, July 30, 2018, David Niklas wrote: > On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 12:51:16 +0100 > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > > https://slashdot.org/submission/8436790/iit-madras- > shakti-group-produce-indias-first-64-bit-soc-risc-v > > > > hi can people help hit "+" on this, to help get it onto the front > > page, many many thanks. > > I upvoted it, but please clarify the article about it's license, is it > opensource or free as in freedom (as per my response to > riscv-basics.com)?! That is very important! > > Thanks > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 15:59:33 2018 From: mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com (Mike Henry) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 08:59:33 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] slashdot submission help needed on IIT Madras RV64 SoC In-Reply-To: References: <20180730090932.373f7356@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> Message-ID: looks like the post has been flagged as spam From vkontogpls at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 18:20:16 2018 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:20:16 +0300 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Linux now boots on 22nm RISC-V Shakti CPU In-Reply-To: References: <20180729164145.22p4xdb7axmanjzw@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: I've read somewhere that this requires specifically compiled binaries to work because it lacks some instructions. Is that correct? If so will this limitation carry forward to other designs from the team? On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 10:26 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > Its the one im here in chennai to help with > > On Sunday, July 29, 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >> On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 11:30:29PM +0700, Wean Irdeh wrote: >> > Check out @ShaktiProcessor’s Tweet: >> > https://twitter.com/ShaktiProcessor/status/1022384131064430593?s=09 >> >> Is this the project that's going to make millions of computers for the >> schoolchidren in India? >> >> -- hendrik >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > > -- > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jul 30 19:09:25 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 19:09:25 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Linux now boots on 22nm RISC-V Shakti CPU In-Reply-To: References: <20180729164145.22p4xdb7axmanjzw@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Monday, July 30, 2018, Bill Kontos wrote: > I've read somewhere that this requires specifically compiled binaries > to work because it lacks some instructions. Is that correct? > Compressed, the 16 bit alternative representations for certain common instructions, yes. UCB ASSUMED that ALL systems running linux would automatically have these because of COURSE it is optimal in ALL circumstances, without fucking well consulting anyone outside of their elite clique / cartel, as to whether this was actually the case. Hint: For VLIW its actually much easier and better to keep to regular 32bit, because of the branch prediction, and just absolutely go mental on the memory bus bandwidth. Prior to UCBs interference both Fedora and Debian had been compiled as RV64IMAFD ie without compressed, which would easily have permitted multiarch to have dual C and nonC binaries and libraries installed. Now there will need to be a fork of both debian and fedora created, exactly as the RISCV foundation CLAIMED that they were working to avoid happening by "learning from the mistakes of the past" rriiiight... If so > will this limitation carry forward to other designs from the team? If they implement C it will be fine. The primary thing is that demand for sovereign processors is so high from various India Govt departments that they are overwhelmed with the rote task of integrating peripherals onto AXI4 buses. So i have spent the past 10 days urgently focussed on writing an autogenerator which creates the HDL source code including the fabric and bus architecture, from a formal spec in about 0.25 seconds flat. Now the team will be free to work on much more strategic research like VLIW xBitManip SIMD 3D graphics Vectors and Compressed and a more efficient RV16 encoding that will produce far more compact code than Compressed can. Also it turns out that one of the students is doing a phd into fabric autogeneration and optimisation. He was by a fantastic coincidence missing the tool that would actually generate the code so that it could be properly tested and synthesised. Professor Kamakoti wrote all of Intel's formal verification test suites when he used to work for them, and he is a big fan of dynamic reconfigureable fabrics to suit different workloads. Its the RISE lab. Reconfigurable something. Its gonna get really really interesting. They have over 20 people on the core team and they get like 20 to 30 interns helping over the summer for 6 months. Oh and me, skating around the campus, feeding the monkeys, farting and using um colourful language shall we say, and writing python that spits out BSV like it was born to Rock. This is not a small operation, its set to completely steamroller ARM, Intel and the RISCV Foundation itself if they dont wake up. All entirely libre licensed and developed along informal IETF / ASF lines not a private club /clique / cartel. L. -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Jul 30 19:13:29 2018 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 19:13:29 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] slashdot submission help needed on IIT Madras RV64 SoC In-Reply-To: References: <20180730090932.373f7356@Phenom-II-x6.niklas.com> Message-ID: On Monday, July 30, 2018, Mike Henry wrote: > looks like the post has been flagged as spam Its often confusing, cant check without laptop, firehose is way to verify. Upvotes overrule spam i believe. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 From wean.irdeh at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 07:15:18 2018 From: wean.irdeh at gmail.com (Wean Irdeh) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:15:18 +0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Linux now boots on 22nm RISC-V Shakti CPU In-Reply-To: References: <20180729164145.22p4xdb7axmanjzw@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, July 31, 2018, Bill Kontos wrote: > I've read somewhere that this requires specifically compiled binaries > to work because it lacks some instructions. Is that correct? If so > will this limitation carry forward to other designs from the team? > > From: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17643166 Annoyingly this chip lacks the Compressed (RVC) extension, making it incompatible with all existing Linux distros. These will either have to be recompiled without any Compressed instructions (which increases I-cache pressure on other CPUs that do support it), or we'll need to ship two versions of everything. From discussions I believe they've been recompiling Fedora & Debian from sources without RVC. From: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17643762 The shakti effort was started in 2014. As a member of the group I can say that, then RVC was only seen at as optional extension. We got the tapeout opportunity an year ago. Later the riscv community has taken the decision to make RVC extension mandatory for distros without involving most of its committee members. Had we been told earlier would have given the support. On Tuesday, July 31, 2018, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > Oh and me, skating around the campus, feeding the monkeys, farting > and using um colourful language shall we say, and writing python that spits > out BSV like it was born to Rock. > > > L. > > lol. Go back to work, Luke! From wean.irdeh at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 14:26:36 2018 From: wean.irdeh at gmail.com (Wean Irdeh) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 20:26:36 +0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Linux now boots on 22nm RISC-V Shakti CPU In-Reply-To: References: <20180729164145.22p4xdb7axmanjzw@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: > > > On Tuesday, July 31, 2018, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > >> Oh and me, skating around the campus, feeding the monkeys, farting >> and using um colourful language shall we say, and writing python that >> spits >> out BSV like it was born to Rock. >> >> >> L. >> >> > This sounds like my routine, glad to see I have similarity with you, Luke From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 01:53:02 2018 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 00:53:02 -0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Microdesktop v1.7 In-Reply-To: References: <53A88417-6F9D-4831-BD1B-473E595EE553@gmail.com> <7209211531832521@iva4-6d7004ac8463.qloud-c.yandex.net> Message-ID: Here's the circuit diagram-scribbled on a piece of paper with pencil. Photo shot with phone camera and cropped and scaled down in GIMP. If it needs to be larger to be readable, I still have the original so can rescale as needed. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EOMA_I2C_circuit_sketch_small.png Type: image/png Size: 33031 bytes Desc: not available URL: