From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 1 15:38:31 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 15:38:31 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New Risc-V fully free chip In-Reply-To: References: <5A136163.7050703@posteo.de> Message-ID: http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/ramanalysis/ also added a section analysing options for DRAM. unsurprisingly the top contender is DDR3/DDR3L/LPDDR3. in 3-8 years time it might be DDR4/LPDDR4 but the *massive* speed (1200mhz) is completely insane to contemplate right now. and availability is.... yyeahhh.... l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 3 19:09:23 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 19:09:23 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM 2018, Stand / Talks / BoFs - ssistance / volunteers needed Message-ID: ok so thank you to wim for prompting me about FOSDEM 2018, i've applied for a stand there and also put in 3 talks in the "hardware track". now, here's the thing: taking 50kg of equipment to Shenzhen Maker Faire was... well... it wasn't fun. the actual faire, fine, but decanting that much equipment FORTY TIMES on international plane flights, taxis, buses, trains and walking around 3km in total, definitely wasn't. so a heads-up: this time i'll be bringing around 30kg on a 10,000km *international* overnight flight: if i'm going to FOSDEM 2018 i will definitely, definitely need some assistance getting to and from brussels airport to the hostel, and from there to the university. also, if anyone is already attending or is planning to attend, i'll need help covering the stand. last time another person named wim helped out, which was amazing of him, he just happened to be the person at the stand next door :) _also_.... what would really make it worth-while would be, if anyone's interested, to do a BoF: discuss and plan what needs to be done and so on. any thoughts and assistance appreciated. l. From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Sun Dec 3 20:33:36 2017 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:33:36 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM 2018, Stand / Talks / BoFs - ssistance / volunteers needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’m experimenting with lightweight diy shipping boxes. Using Aluminium Plastic Composite / Sandwich Panel [1] or Corrugated Plastic aka correx [2]. Not used to make the boxes yet. I’ve got old sheets of the sandwich panel for sign shops from when they remove old signs from customers. They leave them by the bins and ask long as your dont leave printed signs dumped on the side of the road and de brand the sheets or hide the brand on the inside of the box, they dont mind. The sheets have a few mounting holes but other wise excellent source free-of-feebies :) sandwich panels or corrugated plastic sheets. To recycle for a very cheap strong, lighter than plywood, box :) Would be nice to go to fossdem for once and meet ya :) ... not sure how to manage travel... we see heh [1] * a picture (16KB) of what a sheets construction looks like http://www.china-manufacturer-directory.com/picture/fireproof-aluminum-plastic-composite-panel-nh-118.jpg * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_panel [2] https://www.theplasticshop.co.uk/correx-sheet-index.html From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 3 20:35:16 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 20:35:16 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM 2018, Stand / Talks / BoFs - ssistance / volunteers needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 8:33 PM, Alexander Ross wrote: > I’m experimenting with lightweight diy shipping boxes. nice! .... do they have wheels? :) > Would be nice to go to fossdem for once and meet ya :) ... not sure how > to manage travel... we see heh see how it goes. l. From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 21:03:36 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:03:36 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM 2018, Stand / Talks / BoFs - ssistance / volunteers needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: @ Mr Ross -- around here, that corrugated plastic sign stuff is called "Coroplast". It's handy. @ Luke -- Might I suggest one or two of these? They're also sold in eg Staples / Office Max type stores, if you can't/won't wait for eBay or Amazon --> https://www.ebay.com/itm/122831738441 I have one, it's my third, actually -- I have the remnants of the two predecessors around for spare parts. (They were abused to pieces lol.) Don't get me wrong, they're dang sturdy -- I'm just overly demanding of them ;) An Internet friend of mine who lives in Washington State helped me put together a custom axle and some lawnmower wheels on mine, so that it actually has ground clearance. I take it on the local public transit system (I'm kind of rural, so it's a mixture of handicap vans and Chevy Sprinters and hotel-type shuttlebuses) when I go shopping, because it beats the absolute heck out of hauling 10 bags of groceries. Recently, I found a little tub with a lid, at the local Wal-Mart, that I can bungee-cord on over top of the bin, and get even more capacity out of it. The bin itself (I'm not sure about the tub and I'm too lazy to go measure it right now... probably about fourteen inches by sixteen on the inside)) is about a sixteen-inch cube on the inside, unfolded -- it can fold flat, about three inches thick plus wheels and handle -- and they're generally rated to about seventy pounds capacity. (That's a lot of potatoes! or anything else, really... unless you're a traveling cinderblock salesman, lol) I can vouch for this being the actual capacity... fifteen old laptops in a stack is heavy enough to cause problems, as is adding a 25lb box of cat litter to the usual grocery payload... my particular example has a half-inch wooden dowel, wrapped in electrical tape, across the front handle at the inside top... it holds things together nicely ;) From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Sun Dec 3 21:20:32 2017 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 21:20:32 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM 2018, Stand / Talks / BoFs - ssistance / volunteers needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24b88bfc-c1c8-4a41-ff18-ad5a3b56e5be@aross.me> On 03/12/17 20:35, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 8:33 PM, Alexander Ross > wrote: >> I’m experimenting with lightweight diy shipping boxes. > > nice! .... do they have wheels? :) not yet worked out how to do that. i wanted to use them to post gear to events using cheap 15-25KG shipping services. so can’t have wheels sticking out. Not yet worked out what system/invention that enables the option of having easy to add/remove wheels. >> Would be nice to go to fossdem for once and meet ya :) ... not sure how >> to manage travel... we see heh > > see how it goes. thanks Wish ya well with your travels. On 03/12/17 21:03, Christopher Havel wrote: > @ Mr Ross -- around here, that corrugated plastic sign stuff is called > "Coroplast". It's handy. Thanks for the tip :) From laserhawk64 at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 21:26:55 2017 From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:26:55 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM 2018, Stand / Talks / BoFs - ssistance / volunteers needed In-Reply-To: <24b88bfc-c1c8-4a41-ff18-ad5a3b56e5be@aross.me> References: <24b88bfc-c1c8-4a41-ff18-ad5a3b56e5be@aross.me> Message-ID: The most common use I've heard of for Coroplast -- not that I've done this, it sounds a bit rickety for the task, TBH -- is to use it for the body of a homemade velomobile. For those not in the know -- a velomobile, more common in Europe than USA by far, is basically an enclosed bike or trike. Some have electric motors or other pedal-assist equipment, some do not. Google Images is your friend here ;) From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 3 21:45:42 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 21:45:42 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM 2018, Stand / Talks / BoFs - ssistance / volunteers needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Christopher Havel wrote: > @ Luke -- Might I suggest one or two of these? They're also sold in eg > Staples / Office Max type stores, if you can't/won't wait for eBay or > Amazon --> https://www.ebay.com/itm/122831738441 they're quite nice. not as big as the large 4-wheeled luggage thingies which are what.... 20in x 15in x 30in? i'm packing everthing into 2 of those, the 3D printer strips down to an X-Y gantry with tons of bits of foam, plastic bags and so on stuffed around it, other frame parts stuffed in at the other end, it works really well, just a pain in the neck 2 hours assembly time. disassembly's fast though: 20 mins. components and so on.... yyeahhh... the only thing being, how would it fare as airport luggage? the wheels look great - far more sturdy than standard luggage, but open-top? mm... l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 00:30:11 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 17:30:11 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper Message-ID: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> The goal of the taper is to minimize the reflection coefficient involved with changes in impedance caused by changes in transmission line geometry. In essence we are trying to make the changes so gentle that we don't scare any electrons. The scared electrons reflect at the point of abrupt changes in impedance(flee back in the direction they came from) which weakens the signal delivered to the HDMI cable and, finally, the display. (Forgive the anthropomorphization of the electrons--it is purely for illustrative purposes.) As the high-frequency differential lines traverse the board from processor pin to connector pin certain parts of the geometry and electromagnetic environment stay fairly constant, other aspects in certain places are not conducive to the transmission environment needed by the HDMI signals we wish to deliver to the connector. Three principles are at work here: 1. Whatever conditions are apparent over the majority of the conduction path will dominate the transmission characteristics. (You could think of the overall impedance as being similar to a length-weighted average of the local impedance of all the sections along the path.) 2. The abruptness of changes in geometry will determine the abruptness of changes in impedance and thus the reflection coefficient associated with the perturbation. 3. Reflections are more troublesome the further you get from the signal source. Close to the source the reflection arrives at the source during the signal rise time and can be overcome by the line driver. The trace width stays mostly constant at 5mil except for component pads at processor, ESD chip, and connector and the two through-hole vias used to transition from layer 1 (processor) to layer 6 (room for differential microstrip transmission lines) back to layer 1 (connector). Both the signal trace copper thickness and the dielectric thickness between signal traces and ground plane change only at the signal vias. The room available on layer 6 allows us to make a controlled-impedance differential transmission line for a good share of the transmission path. Since the HDMI standard specifies 100 +/-15% Ohm impedance, we have designed the geometry to provide a characteristic impedance close to the upper end of the tolerance of the nominal impedance. We have room to impose this geometry for most of the length of the sojourn. At both ends the space is restricted such that the close quarters will no doubt result in a lower local impedance. Where we have room, the distance between a differential pair and any other copper (be it another differential pair or ground) is 15mil. At both ends this is restricted by the spacing between lands in the component layouts down to 5-7mil. From the first principle, we see that the influence of the lower local impedance from the restricted sections will serve to lower the overall impedance. In order to stay within the tolerances of the nominal impedance we attempt to limit the length of the restricted sections (where the inter-pair distance <15mil). In some places this could lead us to maintain 15mil inter-pair distance right up to an obstruction which imposes a 5-7mil inter-pair distance. The second principle leads us to recognize this is an abrupt change and expect that it will cause reflections. The third principle suggests it is more important to deal with abrupt changes at the connector end of the transmission line than the processor end. Hence, we are exploring the feasibility of tapering the inter-pair distance down from 15mil to 5mil as we get to the connector end, in order to soften the effects of the unavoidable space restrictions at the connector end. The other important point is that since we are dealing with differential signals, we are interested in trying to maintain symmetry in dealing with the two traces of each differential pair, lest we push signal energy into common-mode. The idea was inspired by my reading of a discussion on "Microwaves101"[*] of an impedance taper first described by R. W. Klopfenstein in a paper titled "A Transmission Line Taper of Improved Design", published in the Proceedings of the IRE, page 31-35, January 1956. We aren't really doing his work justice as our frequencies are so low that our board is too small to accommodate the length required to get the good low frequency response he demonstrates. Nevertheless, we are interested in making the sequence of small transitions in a somewhat similar fashion. Transmission Line geometry (widths) North ground fill keep out Inter-pair Distance = 15mil HDMI TX2P trace = 5mil Intra-pair Spacing = 5mil HDMI TX2N trace = 5mil Inter-pair Distance = 15mil HDMI TX1P trace = 5mil Intra-pair Spacing = 5mil HDMI TX1N trace = 5mil Inter-pair Distance = 15mil HDMI TX0P trace = 5mil Intra-pair Spacing = 5mil HDMI TX0N trace = 5mil Inter-pair Distance = 15mil HDMI TXCP trace = 5mil Intra-pair Spacing = 5mil HDMI TXCN trace = 5mil Inter-pair Distance = 15mil South ground fill keep out Adding this up yields a total = 135mil When we scale the Inter-pair Distance = 5mil, the total = 85mil This drops 50mil in width. 0 15mil 1 14mil -1mil 2 13mil -1mil 3 12mil -1mil 4 10mil -2mil 5 08mil -2mil 6 07mil -1mil 7 06mil -1mil 8 05mil -1mil If we use 15mil along the signal conduction path from the onset of one change to the next and 45 degree turns to initiate and complete all the changes, and if we choose a geometry to lengthen TXC (clock) the most and leave unchanged TX2, the length along the signal path of the taper will be 7*15mil + 4*1mil = 109mil after which we have no need of manual keep outs for the ground fill as the board rule of 5mil minimum Cu-Cu spacing will suffice. Deviations from path in due NorthEast direction (+ signifies change in the NorthWest direction, - signifies change in the SouthEast direction, units in mil) 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 -1 1 2 3 4 2 -1 1 2 3 4 3 -1 1 2 3 4 4 -2 2 4 6 8 5 -2 2 4 6 8 6 -1 1 2 3 4 7 -1 1 2 3 4 8 -1 1 2 3 4 Diagram attached below. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 24363 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Good grief that took awhile! I'm now completely sold on the concept of Computer-Aided Design (I've used some awkward implementations before but this was done with pencil, pen, measuring tape, and book spine for straight edge). Reference: [*] https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/klopfenstein-taper From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Dec 5 01:49:02 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 01:49:02 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > The goal of the taper is to minimize the reflection coefficient involved with > changes in impedance caused by changes in transmission line geometry. > In essence we are trying to make the changes so gentle that we don't scare > any electrons. The scared electrons reflect at the point of abrupt changes > in impedance(flee back in the direction they came from) which weakens > the signal delivered to the HDMI cable and, finally, the display. > (Forgive the anthropomorphization of the electrons--it is purely for illustrative purposes.) i get it. and it's fun, too. reminds me of "B.O.B" from Monsters for some reason. Dr Cockroach: "Look out, here comes..." Susan: *pause*... "Susan". B.O.B.: "SuuUuuusan... oo that does sound scarey. i scared myself" btw i miiight be able to do a pair of arcs on each side of keepout area, in "S" format, where it needs to narrow / widen. are you able to take a closer-up photo or a higher-res version, don't worry about the file limit to the list i'll "approve" it when i see it. the image is 320x240 and it's too blurry to make out the writing and notes. not too hi-res btw! :) some of these iphones... dang. what i do is: use GIMP, convert to JPEG, set it at "35% compression", that's a good compromise on quality and size, then you can get away with even as high as 1000x1000 @ only... 80-200k or so depending on complexity. i also tend to select "Image | Mode | Greyscale" on pencil-drawn pictures. l. From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Mon Dec 4 22:04:23 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 17:04:23 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pocketchip's keyboard for pc card? Message-ID: https://getchip.com/pages/pocketchip I have been told, the pocketchip's keyboard is i2c. Can you connect the keyboard to the pcmcia/eoma68 breakout board? Then configure the keyboard's keys using a piece of software? I asked the chip company if they would sell a version of the pocketchip having an usb keyboard and no display. A version like that would be useful for people, should they want to combine a pocketchip with a raspberry pi, pc card or other computer. The chip company has not answered. Thanks. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 04:28:50 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 21:28:50 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3715AF4F-1908-42CF-B428-52853776CCAD@gmail.com> photo: Small 29.3KB Medium 86.5KB Large 790KB Actual 1.8MB I believe I selected the smallest option last time. I'll try "Medium" this time. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Dec 5 12:22:33 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:22:33 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: <3715AF4F-1908-42CF-B428-52853776CCAD@gmail.com> References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <3715AF4F-1908-42CF-B428-52853776CCAD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 4:28 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > photo: > Small 29.3KB > Medium 86.5KB > Large 790KB > Actual 1.8MB > > I believe I selected the smallest option last time. I'll try "Medium" this time. yehyeh too small - medium's great. make it just the one attachment, JPG only. or, y'know what? email me (directly) the actual image, i'll take care of it. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Dec 5 12:23:56 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:23:56 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] pocketchip's keyboard for pc card? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 10:04 PM, wrote: > https://getchip.com/pages/pocketchip > > I have been told, the pocketchip's keyboard is i2c. Can you > connect the keyboard to the pcmcia/eoma68 breakout > board? sure. EOMA68 has I2C. you just can't use address 0x51: that's reserved. > Then configure the keyboard's keys using a > piece of software? you'd use exactly the same software, compiled up for the different processor, that's all. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Dec 5 12:35:46 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:35:46 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <3715AF4F-1908-42CF-B428-52853776CCAD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:22 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 4:28 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: >> photo: >> Small 29.3KB >> Medium 86.5KB >> Large 790KB >> Actual 1.8MB >> >> I believe I selected the smallest option last time. I'll try "Medium" this time. > > yehyeh too small - medium's great. make it just the one attachment, > JPG only. or, y'know what? email me (directly) the actual image, > i'll take care of it. got it, richard. i got the original of the HTML-embedded message (i set up the list to strip HTML MIME-embedded attachments), but instead i received the *original* message. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Dec 5 12:41:26 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:41:26 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > 3. Reflections are more troublesome the further you get from the > signal source. Close to the source the reflection arrives at the > source during the signal rise time and can be overcome by the line driver. > Deviations from path in due NorthEast direction (+ signifies change in the > NorthWest direction, - signifies change in the SouthEast direction, units in mil) > > 0 0 0 0 0 0 > 1 -1 1 2 3 4 > 2 -1 1 2 3 4 > 3 -1 1 2 3 4 > 4 -2 2 4 6 8 > 5 -2 2 4 6 8 > 6 -1 1 2 3 4 > 7 -1 1 2 3 4 > 8 -1 1 2 3 4 okaay so the idea is, just after the long straight you make a series of very tiny corrections by bringing each of the tracks inwards - closer together - so that when you get to the point where you *have* to be 5-7mil apart you're already neeearrrrly that far apart *anyway* so it's not so bad. ok :) that's perfectly doable. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13853 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Dec 5 14:30:17 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:30:17 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: > >> 3. Reflections are more troublesome the further you get from the >> signal source. Close to the source the reflection arrives at the >> source during the signal rise time and can be overcome by the line driver. > >> Deviations from path in due NorthEast direction (+ signifies change in the >> NorthWest direction, - signifies change in the SouthEast direction, units in mil) >> >> 0 0 0 0 0 0 >> 1 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 2 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 3 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 4 -2 2 4 6 8 >> 5 -2 2 4 6 8 >> 6 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 7 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 8 -1 1 2 3 4 > > okaay so the idea is, just after the long straight you make a series > of very tiny corrections by bringing each of the tracks inwards - > closer together - so that when you get to the point where you *have* > to be 5-7mil apart you're already neeearrrrly that far apart *anyway* > so it's not so bad. > > ok :) that's perfectly doable. so, a quick check: it's easier, due to the VIAs (i am *not* moving them!! certainly not the diff-pairs!) to keep TX1 exactly where it is, and move TX2, TX0 and TXC all inwards. i'll also move the last change from N to NE that goes round the GND via a bit closer in. question: does it *really matter* that the tapering occurs after the 45 degree group turn or is it ok to simply... ok picture 1 or picture 2? :) thoughts appreciated -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Untitled1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 70298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 21:15:34 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:15:34 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <71603E27-4874-43CA-B066-AF9521ED83F0@gmail.com> On Dec 5, 2017, at 05:41, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: >> >> Deviations from path in due NorthEast direction (+ signifies change in the >> NorthWest direction, - signifies change in the SouthEast direction, units in mil) >> >> 0 0 0 0 0 0 >> 1 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 2 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 3 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 4 -2 2 4 6 8 >> 5 -2 2 4 6 8 >> 6 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 7 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 8 -1 1 2 3 4 > > okaay so the idea is, just after the long straight you make a series > of very tiny corrections by bringing each of the tracks inwards - > closer together - so that when you get to the point where you *have* > to be 5-7mil apart you're already neeearrrrly that far apart *anyway* > so it's not so bad. > > ok :) that's perfectly doable. Sweet! The reason for all the detail is to try and make the changes gradual enough to avoid causing big reflections from the taper itself but also make the geometry symmetric so we avoid turning differential signal into common mode. Notice that all the tracks and keepouts start a move "in" towards TX2 once every 15mil and then stay at that distance for the remainder of that step. Notice also that all the tracks and keepouts move in except TX2 (since our goal is that it be the shortest--or moreso that TXC be the longest). At the 5mil-inter-pair-distance end of the taper the manual keepouts become superfluous in light of your 5mil minimum Cu-Cu spacing design rule which then simplifies the connector end of the layout. I threw "step 0" in there to say let's allow things to at least settle a little after making the turn before we start into the taper. Once we get into that tight bundle then we have to carefully pull the pairs off in order to avoid undoing all our work. I'll send another drawing later this afternoon. (I'm waiting for the dental hygienist, right now.) The idea is to have the bundle running NE, then simultaneously turn the bottom (southernmost) pair due E while the rest of the bundle turns due N for at least 15mil before turning back NE. This makes a 90 degree corner between the bundle and the pair which is leaving and gives enough space to allow ground fill between immediately. From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Dec 5 21:40:04 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 21:40:04 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: <71603E27-4874-43CA-B066-AF9521ED83F0@gmail.com> References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <71603E27-4874-43CA-B066-AF9521ED83F0@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > The reason for all the detail is to try and make the changes gradual enough to avoid causing big reflections from the taper itself but also make the geometry symmetric so we avoid turning differential signal into common mode. wait... so there's *multiple* of those tiny "wiggles" needed? what about... i know: what about doing some of those curves as double-S double-ended arcs, like in that 1965 paper you found? i'll draw it tomorrow > Notice that all the tracks and keepouts start a move "in" towards TX2 once every 15mil and then stay at that distance for the remainder of that step. Notice also that all the tracks and keepouts move in except TX2 (since our goal is that it be the shortest--or moreso that TXC be the longest). 1912 for TX2, 2075 for TX1, 2036 for TX0, 2225 for TXC. noo problem about keeping TX2 the longest, even with a *lot* of taper-wiggling. keeping TX1 stable (see diagrams i sent) would not be a problem. > At the 5mil-inter-pair-distance end of the taper the manual keepouts become superfluous in light of your 5mil minimum Cu-Cu spacing design rule which then simplifies the connector end of the layout. ok that's good > I threw "step 0" in there to say let's allow things to at least settle a little after making the turn before we start into the taper. > > Once we get into that tight bundle then we have to carefully pull the pairs off in order to avoid undoing all our work. I'll send another drawing later this afternoon. (I'm waiting for the dental hygienist, right now.) ok :) > The idea is to have the bundle running NE, then simultaneously turn the bottom (southernmost) pair due E while the rest of the bundle turns due N for at least 15mil before turning back NE. This makes a 90 degree corner between the bundle and the pair which is leaving and gives enough space to allow ground fill between immediately. drawing. even a rough sketch. needed definitely From vkontogpls at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 17:20:18 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 19:20:18 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New 3d printing technique Message-ID: I don't know how far in your 3d printer design you are Luke, or even if something like this is useful/feasible( it's a completely different extruder and servos), but I'm leaving it here for future reference. http://news.mit.edu/2017/new-3-d-printer-10-times-faster-commercial-counterparts-1129 The actual paper is unfortunately behind a paywall. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 6 17:42:19 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 17:42:19 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] New 3d printing technique In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > I don't know how far in your 3d printer design you are Luke, or even > if something like this is useful/feasible( it's a completely different > extruder and servos), but I'm leaving it here for future reference. > > http://news.mit.edu/2017/new-3-d-printer-10-times-faster-commercial-counterparts-1129 > > The actual paper is unfortunately behind a paywall. yes i saw it, meant to post it, thank you bill. look at the video: can you see how much the printbed, which is on springs, is shaking side-to-side? whoops... :) the drag force of the filament is *so great* it's causing the printbed to move sideways. it just goes to show that you need to cover *all* the bases. any one thing (and i forgot to stabilise the printbed too) and you get rubbish-for-a-print. l. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 11:37:28 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 06:37:28 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Mali / Lima In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/18/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 12:29 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: >> It seems that someone has picked up the tainted project. >> >> https://github.com/yuq?tab=repositories > > good for them. all that fuss by ARM, and what do they get? an > employee from AMD carrying on the work. > > mwahaahha > Do you know how to say standalone complex? :) From hendrik at topoi.pooq.com Fri Dec 8 21:47:30 2017 From: hendrik at topoi.pooq.com (Hendrik Boom) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 16:47:30 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Mali / Lima In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171208214729.GA24491@topoi.pooq.com> On Fri, Dec 08, 2017 at 06:37:28AM -0500, Jean Flamelle wrote: > On 9/18/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > > > > good for them. all that fuss by ARM, and what do they get? an > > employee from AMD carrying on the work. > > > > mwahaahha > > > > Do you know how to say standalone complex? :) Ghost in the shell? -- hendrik From calmstorm at posteo.de Sat Dec 9 00:22:03 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 19:22:03 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Mali / Lima In-Reply-To: <20171208214729.GA24491@topoi.pooq.com> References: <20171208214729.GA24491@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: On 12/08/2017 04:47 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Fri, Dec 08, 2017 at 06:37:28AM -0500, Jean Flamelle wrote: >> On 9/18/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> >>> good for them. all that fuss by ARM, and what do they get? an >>> employee from AMD carrying on the work. >>> >>> mwahaahha >>> >> Do you know how to say standalone complex? :) > Ghost in the shell? > > -- hendrik LOL I was hoping someone would make that reference! xD thanks for making me  smile. :) > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From raphael.melotte at gmail.com Sat Dec 9 12:10:34 2017 From: raphael.melotte at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgTcOpbG90dGU=?=) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 13:10:34 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM 2018, Stand / Talks / BoFs - ssistance / volunteers needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-12-03 20:09 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > if i'm going to FOSDEM 2018 i will > definitely, definitely need some assistance getting to and from > brussels airport to the hostel, and from there to the university. > I live in Brussels, I have a car, and I would be glad to help you transporting things arround, as long as I'm available. The thing is I'm on holiday until February 2 (friday), and I return back in Brussels only the 2 in the afternoon. So depending on when your flight arrives in Brussels, I may or may not be able to help you going to your hostel. After that, I have nothing else planned but going to the event so if you need to bring things to and from the university, I can help you. I don't know how far we could get into the university by car, but it will always be better than by taxi or any public transport. Also, I'm not related with the Fosdem but I went to the university for two years and I know the place so I may help. > also, if anyone is already attending or is planning to attend, i'll > need help covering the stand. > This would be more difficult for me. As english is not my native language I would have trouble to explain anything technical about the project. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 9 17:16:48 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 17:16:48 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM 2018, Stand / Talks / BoFs - ssistance / volunteers needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Raphaël Mélotte wrote: > 2017-12-03 20:09 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > >> if i'm going to FOSDEM 2018 i will >> definitely, definitely need some assistance getting to and from >> brussels airport to the hostel, and from there to the university. >> > I live in Brussels, I have a car, and I would be glad to help you > transporting things arround, as long as I'm available. > The thing is I'm on holiday until February 2 (friday), and I return back in > Brussels only the 2 in the afternoon. ok, well that would be a huge help just getting equipment from the hostel to the university. i'm planning to arrive at least a few DAYS early as i am on GMT+8 > So depending on when your flight arrives in Brussels, I may or may not be > able to help you going to your hostel. > After that, I have nothing else planned but going to the event so if you > need to bring things to and from the university, I can help you. > I don't know how far we could get into the university by car, but it will > always be better than by taxi or any public transport. yehyeh. at least to near the admin office would be fantastic. > Also, I'm not related with the Fosdem but I went to the university for two > years and I know the place so I may help. cool > >> also, if anyone is already attending or is planning to attend, i'll >> need help covering the stand. >> > This would be more difficult for me. As english is not my native language I > would have trouble to explain anything technical about the project. that's ok: as long as someone's there, and the equipment doesn't have to be moved it'll be cool. btw we have one extra person who's volunteered to help cover on sunday (thank you, wim). l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 9 19:39:30 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 19:39:30 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: hiya richard, ok so just to check, are you recommending a multi-staggered approach, according to that table: 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 -1 1 2 3 4 2 -1 1 2 3 4 3 -1 1 2 3 4 4 -2 2 4 6 8 5 -2 2 4 6 8 6 -1 1 2 3 4 7 -1 1 2 3 4 8 -1 1 2 3 4 so that would be *eight* separate bring-ins? or are you just recommending the *one* bring-in, where the table specifies how *much* each particular trace should be offset by? so 0 would be dummy, 1 would be TX2N, 2 would be TX2P .... 8 would be TX2P? (bear in mind, like i mentioned, i am thinking of keeping TX1 where it is instead of TX2, because of the diff-pair VIA positions, i can adjust the offsets accordingly) l. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18187 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 10 04:37:48 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 04:37:48 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > Good grief that took awhile! I'm now completely sold on the > concept of Computer-Aided Design (I've used some awkward implementations >before but this was done with pencil, pen, measuring tape, and book spine > for straight edge). ... what... you don't just draw them by hand? :) rright. there's no way i'm doing this layout by hand. i'm going to do something that i meant to do a long time ago: investigate how to use the DCOM interface to PADS. that *shudder* means installing python2.7 under windows. basically it should be perfectly possible to use the COM interface to hunt down the tracks by name, and in an *automated* fashion add in track segments according to the layout you designed, richard. what that also means is, if i get it wrong, it's a simple matter of adjusting the python program to redo it. ohh dearie me :) l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 10 11:19:32 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:19:32 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: ok i looked at using the COM interface, and... it's incomplete, lacking the set of required functions to do things such as "add track". sooOoo... i think i'll take a different approach: i'll write a parser for the ASCII-exported version of the PCB file, track down the relevant sections and replace them with auto-generated tracks. actually what this approach would allow is, to potentially add in proper curves. if i'm going to use tables mathematically to automate the track generation, i might as well go the whole hog, richard, and do the equations from that 1956 paper, properly. even if it means adding thousands of segments. what do you think? l. From doark at mail.com Mon Dec 11 02:31:39 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:31:39 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Mali / Lima In-Reply-To: References: <20171208214729.GA24491@topoi.pooq.com> Message-ID: <20171210213139.2231bc10@Davy_in_the_gravy> On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 19:22:03 -0500 zap wrote: > On 12/08/2017 04:47 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 08, 2017 at 06:37:28AM -0500, Jean Flamelle wrote: > >> On 9/18/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> > >>> good for them. all that fuss by ARM, and what do they get? an > >>> employee from AMD carrying on the work. > >>> > >>> mwahaahha > >>> > >> Do you know how to say standalone complex? :) > > Ghost in the shell? > > > > -- hendrik > LOL I was hoping someone would make that reference! xD > > thanks for making me  smile. :) \me lost. I watch Science Fiction too... Thanks! From doark at mail.com Mon Dec 11 02:45:44 2017 From: doark at mail.com (David Niklas) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:45:44 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EPROM programmer Message-ID: <20171210214544.2703ce63@Davy_in_the_gravy> Hello Luke & list, I was blindly typing search phrases into my computer today (no, not really), when I stumbled onto a site advertising UV EPROM programmers for less than I had read about them being (was it $10,000 or $100,000?) I immediately searched ebay and found several William models for less than $70. "Cool" I said, "But is the SW open source?". So I did a single search. Duckduckgo was merciful and I soon found myself here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/geepro/ As you may or may not remember I've been trying to break into the HW field and I'm curious as to the list member's reactions to this as I was (am), a bit excited. Small chips don't seem that expensive either! Thanks, David From mike.valk at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 07:25:44 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 08:25:44 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2017-12-05 13:41 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: > >> 3. Reflections are more troublesome the further you get from the >> signal source. Close to the source the reflection arrives at the >> source during the signal rise time and can be overcome by the line driver. > >> Deviations from path in due NorthEast direction (+ signifies change in the >> NorthWest direction, - signifies change in the SouthEast direction, units in mil) >> >> 0 0 0 0 0 0 >> 1 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 2 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 3 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 4 -2 2 4 6 8 >> 5 -2 2 4 6 8 >> 6 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 7 -1 1 2 3 4 >> 8 -1 1 2 3 4 > > okaay so the idea is, just after the long straight you make a series > of very tiny corrections by bringing each of the tracks inwards - > closer together - so that when you get to the point where you *have* > to be 5-7mil apart you're already neeearrrrly that far apart *anyway* > so it's not so bad. > > ok :) that's perfectly doable. Just a small question. Why not deviate from the 45 degree angle? So you end up with converging lines, instead of the stepped approach? > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From ckeen at pestilenz.org Mon Dec 11 09:15:20 2017 From: ckeen at pestilenz.org (Christian Kellermann) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:15:20 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Mali / Lima In-Reply-To: <20171210213139.2231bc10@Davy_in_the_gravy> References: <20171208214729.GA24491@topoi.pooq.com> <20171210213139.2231bc10@Davy_in_the_gravy> Message-ID: <20171211091520.GO54209@pestilenz.org> * David Niklas [171211 06:11]: > On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 19:22:03 -0500 > zap wrote: > > > On 12/08/2017 04:47 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 08, 2017 at 06:37:28AM -0500, Jean Flamelle wrote: > > >> On 9/18/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > >> > > >>> good for them. all that fuss by ARM, and what do they get? an > > >>> employee from AMD carrying on the work. > > >>> > > >>> mwahaahha > > >>> > > >> Do you know how to say standalone complex? :) > > > Ghost in the shell? > > > > > > -- hendrik > > LOL I was hoping someone would make that reference! xD > > > > thanks for making me?? smile. :) > > \me lost. > I watch Science Fiction too... You need to watch anime series for that: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_Alone_Complex Cheers, Christian -- May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from suffering, and may you live with ease. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Dec 11 10:53:34 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:53:34 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 7:25 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > Just a small question. Why not deviate from the 45 degree angle? So > you end up with converging lines, instead of the stepped approach? because the steps are a close approximation to the original 1956 paper which ensures that there is a smooth transition of the impedance. if you think "microwave guide" and "lamina flow", if you just draw a straight line the signal bounces about and comes straight back at you. however if you have these specially-arranged steps, it's a bit like a parabolic mirror, the signal bounces in a mathematically very special way that *focusses* the signal onto the (narrower) track, ensuring that it doesn't bounce back at you. the ideal case would be to have hundreds of steps (not 45 degree ones) and lots of small lines, i'm currently investigating the format of the .ASC files, identifying where the heck you're supposed to put traces. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Mon Dec 11 17:53:11 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 12:53:11 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Mali / Lima In-Reply-To: <20171211091520.GO54209@pestilenz.org> References: <20171208214729.GA24491@topoi.pooq.com> <20171210213139.2231bc10@Davy_in_the_gravy> <20171211091520.GO54209@pestilenz.org> Message-ID: <862aeb16-4390-b4f1-43b3-f78ec8e96fd6@posteo.de> On 12/11/2017 04:15 AM, Christian Kellermann wrote: > * David Niklas [171211 06:11]: >> On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 19:22:03 -0500 >> zap wrote: >> >>> On 12/08/2017 04:47 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: >>>> On Fri, Dec 08, 2017 at 06:37:28AM -0500, Jean Flamelle wrote: >>>>> On 9/18/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> good for them. all that fuss by ARM, and what do they get? an >>>>>> employee from AMD carrying on the work. >>>>>> >>>>>> mwahaahha >>>>>> >>>>> Do you know how to say standalone complex? :) >>>> Ghost in the shell? >>>> >>>> -- hendrik >>> LOL I was hoping someone would make that reference! xD >>> >>> thanks for making me?? smile. :) >> \me lost. >> I watch Science Fiction too... > You need to watch anime series for that: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_Alone_Complex > > Cheers, > > Christian >  this has been fun, but shouldn't we end this pointless thread. it seems a bit derailed... xD ah w/e it don't matter :) From mike.valk at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 08:10:22 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 09:10:22 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2017-12-11 11:53 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 7:25 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: > >> Just a small question. Why not deviate from the 45 degree angle? So >> you end up with converging lines, instead of the stepped approach? > > because the steps are a close approximation to the original 1956 > paper which ensures that there is a smooth transition of the > impedance. I think we're on different tracks here. ;-) We have different types of impedance and capacitance going on. 1. Single trace (of a pair) - capacitance to other traces/planes such as GND/PWR - impedance due to trace geometry 2. Intra differential trace (between two line of the same pair) - capacitance to the differential trace - Impedance due to the parallel nature of the trace pair 3. Inter differential trace (between different pairs) - capacitance to the differential trace - Impedance due to the parallel nature of the trace pair So for matching impedance on a single trace you can do a taper. To match different incoming outgoing impedance requirements or to nullify impedance mismatching parts such as vias. See the left side drawings. The taper can be in steps or smooth. I've read a, recent, paper that the effect is the same. Indeed don't make to great steps as they'll create reflections. In an inter pair you'll the steps on the outside so the width between the two lines of a pair remains as smooth as possible. Skinning effect in combination with the magnetic fields, which create the capacitance effect, will draw the signal to travel mostly on the inner edges. So the steps don't touch the signal to much. For narrowing multiple pairs, I cannot see the benefit of a stepped approach. See the left side drawings. Just more work. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tapers.png Type: image/png Size: 69097 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Dec 12 08:33:57 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 08:33:57 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:10 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-12-11 11:53 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 7:25 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> Just a small question. Why not deviate from the 45 degree angle? So >>> you end up with converging lines, instead of the stepped approach? >> >> because the steps are a close approximation to the original 1956 >> paper which ensures that there is a smooth transition of the >> impedance. > > I think we're on different tracks here. ;-) > > We have different types of impedance and capacitance going on. > 1. Single trace (of a pair) > - capacitance to other traces/planes such as GND/PWR > - impedance due to trace geometry > 2. Intra differential trace (between two line of the same pair) > - capacitance to the differential trace > - Impedance due to the parallel nature of the trace pair > 3. Inter differential trace (between different pairs) > - capacitance to the differential trace > - Impedance due to the parallel nature of the trace pair > > So for matching impedance on a single trace you can do a taper. To > match different incoming outgoing impedance requirements or to nullify > impedance mismatching parts such as vias. right, this is inter-pair, and also the keep-out area which must also be tapered. we're leaving individual traces @ 5mil and the calculations that richard's done are all based on traces being fixed @ 5mil. > In an inter pair you'll the steps on the outside so the width between > the two lines of a pair remains as smooth as possible. right. ok. so the paper from 1956 explains that it is REALLY IMPORTANT that you NOT do a straight (linear) taper. the shape of the steps is VERY specific, and is based on studies (many decades later) that explain that you can EMULATE the curving shapes of required tapering from the original paper by deploying a CHAIN of DISCRETE steps. these discrete steps are what richard went to the trouble of outlining in that table. > For narrowing multiple pairs, I cannot see the benefit of a stepped > approach. See the left side drawings. Just more work. more work with a very very specific and specifically designed outcome, based on a paper that has been demonstrated mathematically to be very specific and precise in how it gradually changes impedance from one value to another whilst GUARANTEEING that at no time will there be ANY reflections back down the line. a linear step approach such as the one that you outline in the drawing is GUARANTEED 100% to cause reflections. the gradual change outlined in the 1956 paper is similar to an S curve (not exactly, but close enough). i'm drawing it (attached) freehand on gimp - really badly - so it may not be totally clear. the black lines are supposed to be the smooth S-like tapers of the "ideal" case. the purple one is supposed to be the 45-degree multiple individual steps. so by doing this series of steps the inter-pair impedance changes from its (appx).... 110 ohms by virtue of the distance being 15mil to each pair and also to the keep-out area, down to something closer to 50 ohms by the time we get to the end of the set of 8 steps, by which point the inter-pair spacing is 5mil, as you have to have, because of the distance between the pads on the ESD and the JAE DC-3 HDMI connector. if we followed the "straight line" inter-pair approach that you're advocating, the change from the 110 ohms to 50 ohms using linear spacing between 45-turn steps OR a straight 1-line arbitrary-angle taper is *GUARANTEED* to result in reflections back down the line(s). btw numbers (110, 50) above are not wholly accurate, richard calculated them correctly, i am just substituting convenient indicative numbers from my vague and non-specific memory. l. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6912 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mike.valk at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 14:54:19 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 15:54:19 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2017-12-12 9:33 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:10 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com > > so by doing this series of steps the inter-pair impedance changes > from its (appx).... 110 ohms by virtue of the distance being 15mil to > each pair and also to the keep-out area, down to something closer to > 50 ohms by the time we get to the end of the set of 8 steps, by which > point the inter-pair spacing is 5mil, as you have to have, because of > the distance between the pads on the ESD and the JAE DC-3 HDMI > connector. > > if we followed the "straight line" inter-pair approach that you're > advocating, the change from the 110 ohms to 50 ohms using linear > spacing between 45-turn steps OR a straight 1-line arbitrary-angle > taper is *GUARANTEED* to result in reflections back down the line(s). > We'll I'm not convinced on the reflections in inter pair matching. But indeed my "linear" might not be the best and results in unequal impedance transitions and thus in signal degradation. But you can stil do gradual corners. See the "transitioned" attachment. But without a, 3d, simulation or a real world test this is all very theoretical. > btw numbers (110, 50) above are not wholly accurate, richard > calculated them correctly, i am just substituting convenient > indicative numbers from my vague and non-specific memory. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Transitioned inter taper.png Type: image/png Size: 9562 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Staggered inter taper.png Type: image/png Size: 6431 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Tue Dec 12 15:32:20 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 15:32:20 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 2:54 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > We'll I'm not convinced on the reflections in inter pair matching. But > indeed my "linear" might not be the best and results in unequal > impedance transitions and thus in signal degradation. But you can stil > do gradual corners. See the "transitioned" attachment. yes. the issue i have with the 45-degree thing is that it has to be staggered (you can't make the transitions on *exactly* the same X-distance along the axis because the pairs, during the 45 degree turn, would actually come *too close* by a factor of pow(2,0.5) * 5mil. a non-45-degree variant - exactly as you draw - would not have that same problem. *but*.... at the same time, 8 steps would not be anything like enough, because of the risk of inaccuracies in the distance between the tracks, perhaps going to 4.95mil separation at the exact point where each track turns. all a pain. and that's why i said that 100s of such steps would be needed... which i'm not going to do right now, as i would need the actual formulae from the 1956 paper as opposed to richard's hand-calculated 8 steps. > But without a, 3d, simulation or a real world test this is all very theoretical. the theory - which has had quite some time to mature and be demonstrated to be accurate both in complex electrical simulations (papers doing this were referenced on arxiv.org in the original message that richard sent a few months back) and the real world - has matured over the past 60 years and that's why i'm trusting richard's assessment. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 15 12:14:51 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 12:14:51 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM Hardware Enablement Devroom In-Reply-To: <1510570651.1176.2.camel@paulk.fr> References: <1510570651.1176.2.camel@paulk.fr> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Paul Kocialkowski wrote: > A Hardware Enablement devroom will be taking place at FOSDEM this year, > on Sunday 10 December 2017. This newly-created devroom is the result of > 3 proposals that were merged together. It is co-organized by several > individuals. hiya paul so as you saw i put in 3 (short!!) talks, as advised, and one of them was slurped up by the Open Hardware devroom already, and is accepted (the one on... on... "componetn sourcing" as it's not actually "hardware enablement" per se). anyway tristan, organiser of the open hardware devroom, made a suggestion, "why not ask if the Libre RISC-V SoC talk would be worthwhile moving to Main Track?". so, anyway, following up on that idea, who is organising the HW-En talks and who is organising the main ones, so it could be considered? still keeping it SHORT at the same time, still - 15-20 mins. tia, l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 16 09:39:15 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 09:39:15 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: okay! so i've just done a new update which outlines a rather (vague) summary of the taper, there's another update to go out before that, which is nearly there: in the meantime i'm making good progress with the program that reads the ASCII PADS format, displays the tracks (so i can see quickly what's going on), and alters the tracks to create the taper. attached is like the first version, it requires several adjustments (all of which will be done programmatically). btw richard: as it's done programmatically this *could* actually use a *much* more accurate algorithm, and a lot more steps. the steps have to be offset though. they *must* not all be on the same 45 degree line, because if they did then the inter-pair spacing would drop below 5mil, and when they got close to 5 mil separation the *intra*-pair spacing would drop below 5mil. so everything needs to be shuffled up in a cascade that relates (weirdly) to *half* of 45 degrees - 22.5 also it would appear that the horizontal tracks, i turned NE by 45 degrees a little bit too early (i did the tracks by eye) so i have to alter that... it's klunky but it's getting there. l. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 81853 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 17 04:12:59 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 04:12:59 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: ok sooOo... here's where i'm at so far: * from the horizontal separation of the big straight i "virtually" carried them along (or back in the case of TX0 and TXC) so that they meet TX1 (green) * i then pushed each track starting point out by a set fixed distance such that each pair would be EXACTLY 15mil separation from the others and EXACTLY 5mil separation inter-pair. this was a bit trial-and-error but worked fine * i then, using the same offset pattern, pushed the starting point diagonally upwards, and also added something like 30 mil to the start position to move the end point closer towards the end. now, just to emphasise the problem i'm focussing on at the moment i've reduced each 45-degree step from its proposed 15mil right down to 1mil. you can now see clearly that there are two problems: (1) with the exact same starting offset the intra-pair separation, which should be EXACTLY 5mil, clearly isn't. i need to add in an extra offset of... um... i don't know exactly, it's probably sin(22.5) * 5.0 or something. (2) whilst TX2 and TX0 are being adjusted fine, TXC is "racing ahead". this is because the amount that TXC is supposed to come in is DOUBLE that of TX2 and TX0. so i doubled the 45 degree thing and then added on a FIXED amount (15 mil) but it seems i forgot you'd be supposed to subtract the 45 degree turning amount FROM the fixed amount, such that the... you get the idea i'm sure. anyway it should be fairly clear that there would be no way in seven hells that this would be at all practical without doing it entirely in software. at least thee *fundamental* flaws in my understanding of how this should and could be done have been uncovered just in the past 2 days alone, each of which would have been SEVERAL DAYS of f*****g about with manual PADS track layout. l. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 17 05:12:59 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 05:12:59 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: ... yyyyeahhh.... that looks better, doesn't it? the left outer track is shuffled forward by... errr.... sqrt(2) / 4 * 5mil the one in from that (HTX2P) doesn't need shuffling as it's right next to the green pair... the right outer one (HTXCN) by 3x that amount the next one in (HTXCP) by 2x that amount the next one in (HTX0N) by 1x that amount HTX0P is right next to the green pair which is dead-straight so doesn't need shuffling so if i've got this right, the separation gap intra-pair should remain at 5.0 mil, and when all the pairs get close together at the end they should again be exactly 5.0 mil apart even on the 45 degree bending. whewwww :) i think that's it (oh, except the step needs adjusting to 15mil not 5mil as it is now). now i have to identify where in the PADS file the rectangle for the keepout area is, add *that* to the parser as well, then do the same maths and create a tethered keepout area. *sigh*... l. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34794 bytes Desc: not available URL: From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 02:13:12 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:13:12 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:41 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: > >> 3. Reflections are more troublesome the further you get from the >> signal source. Close to the source the reflection arrives at the >> source during the signal rise time and can be overcome by the line driver. > >> Deviations from path in due NorthEast direction (+ signifies change in the >> NorthWest direction, - signifies change in the SouthEast direction, units in mil) >> >> 0 0 0 0 0 0 [...] >> 8 -1 1 2 3 4 > > okaay so the idea is, just after the long straight you make a series > of very tiny corrections by bringing each of the tracks inwards - > closer together - so that when you get to the point where you *have* > to be 5-7mil apart you're already neeearrrrly that far apart *anyway* > so it's not so bad. That's the basic idea. I spent a little time reflecting on the big picture (terrible pun, I know): differential driver -> connected to PCB with small clearances for the first ~100mil -> via from layer 1 to layer 6, sort out intra-pair skew ~100mil? -> differential microstrip transmission line (111 Ohm characteristic impedance) ~500mil? -> ESD suppression and sort out connections to cable connector ~200mil -> 100 Ohm cable connector -> 100 Ohm cable ~10000mil -> 100 Ohm cable connector -> 100 Ohm PCB connection to -> 100 Ohm HDMI receiver. Many impedance improprieties can be forgiven during the signal rise time--which is to say within the distance the signal propagates during the first quarter wavelength of its highest characteristic frequency. In this case we already calculated that to be 4300mil, which looks like it will get us safely on to the cable! In pondering the big picture I was reminded that the impedance on the cable is again 100 Ohm, so unless we had a chance to taper back out to that we will create a bigger impedance issue at the connector (having tapered down to smaller clearances over ~100mil and then keeping those clearances for another ~200mil out to the connector) than the short problems of the incursions into our design parameters for the differential microstrip transmission line. The ESD and connector lands represent pretty short distances in the direction of signal propagation. Their are other traces and vias that come closer but over a relatively very short distance in the direction of signal propagation. (We can combat the small problems at component lands by possibly removing the ground plane directly below--essentially moving it lower using a different layer for ground plane. Maybe use layer 3 or 4 instead of 2 or 5?) So, if we had to adapt a line driver with some impedance to a line of different impedance, the taper would be a fine solution. We, on the other hand, have 100 Ohm impedance on both sides of the problem area and thus are better served leaving the conduction path at 100 Ohm impedance and taking some small hits rather than changing it without the room to do as good a job of changing it back. Sorry for jumping down that rabbit hole! The solution was worse than the problem! That's what I get for focusing too closely on details without gazing at the forest again, once in a while. Sincerely, Richard From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 02:32:43 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:32:43 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > ok so just to check, are you recommending a multi-staggered approach, > according to that table: > 0 0 0 0 0 0 > 1 -1 1 2 3 4 [...] > 8 -1 1 2 3 4 > > so that would be *eight* separate bring-ins? Yes, 8 separate, small steps bringing the pairs closer. > or are you just recommending the *one* bring-in, where the table > specifies how *much* each particular trace should be offset by? You are missing the heading that specified: > (bear in mind, like i mentioned, i am thinking of keeping TX1 where it > is instead of TX2, because of the diff-pair VIA positions, i can > adjust the offsets accordingly) That would be fine to hold TX1 stationary instead of TX2, it even makes for a more symmetric taper thus the maximum offset will be smaller. 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 -2 -1 1 2 3 2 -2 -1 1 2 3 3 -2 -1 1 2 3 4 -4 -2 2 4 6 5 -4 -2 2 4 6 6 -2 -1 1 2 3 7 -2 -1 1 2 3 8 -2 -1 1 2 3 P.S. See other post where I climbed out of the rabbit hole and recommend against doing the taper after all. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 02:37:23 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:37:23 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 9:37 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: > >> Good grief that took awhile! I'm now completely sold on the >> concept of Computer-Aided Design (I've used some awkward implementations >>before but this was done with pencil, pen, measuring tape, and book spine >> for straight edge). > > ... what... you don't just draw them by hand? :) > > rright. there's no way i'm doing this layout by hand. God forbid! I had no intention of recommending anyone do the layout by hand. I was doing part of it that way and lamenting the inconvenience. > i'm going to > do something that i meant to do a long time ago: investigate how to > use the DCOM interface to PADS. that *shudder* means installing > python2.7 under windows. > > basically it should be perfectly possible to use the COM interface to > hunt down the tracks by name, and in an *automated* fashion add in > track segments according to the layout you designed, richard. > > what that also means is, if i get it wrong, it's a simple matter of > adjusting the python program to redo it. > > ohh dearie me :) Sounds pretty cool--like a plugin interface for PADS? From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 02:41:32 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:41:32 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 4:19 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > ok i looked at using the COM interface, and... it's incomplete, > lacking the set of required functions to do things such as "add > track". > > sooOoo... i think i'll take a different approach: i'll write a parser > for the ASCII-exported version of the PCB file, track down the > relevant sections and replace them with auto-generated tracks. > > actually what this approach would allow is, to potentially add in > proper curves. if i'm going to use tables mathematically to automate > the track generation, i might as well go the whole hog, richard, and > do the equations from that 1956 paper, properly. even if it means > adding thousands of segments. > > what do you think? Sounds pretty cool! How about we revisit this when we implement something that uses a microwave radio (cellular radio, wifi, etc.)? From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 03:55:02 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 20:55:02 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 10:12 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > ... yyyyeahhh.... that looks better, doesn't it? Strong work, Luke! That does indeed look nice. > the left outer track is shuffled forward by... errr.... sqrt(2) / 4 * 5mil > the one in from that (HTX2P) doesn't need shuffling as it's right next > to the green pair... > the right outer one (HTXCN) by 3x that amount > the next one in (HTXCP) by 2x that amount > the next one in (HTX0N) by 1x that amount > HTX0P is right next to the green pair which is dead-straight so > doesn't need shuffling > > so if i've got this right, the separation gap intra-pair should remain > at 5.0 mil, and when all the pairs get close together at the end they > should again be exactly 5.0 mil apart even on the 45 degree bending. > > whewwww :) > > i think that's it (oh, except the step needs adjusting to 15mil not > 5mil as it is now). now i have to identify where in the PADS file the > rectangle for the keepout area is, add *that* to the parser as well, > then do the same maths and create a tethered keepout area. *sigh*... I'm sorry I didn't fill in more of the geometric considerations. Looks like you have them in hand. When the step offset is d, then the 45 degree step travel will be sqrt(2.0) * d. Looks like you have the starting positions parallel which was the intent but I did not specify the mathematics. I didn't know what origin or reference point and direction you would like to use. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Dec 18 04:05:47 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 04:05:47 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 3:55 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 10:12 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: >> ... yyyyeahhh.... that looks better, doesn't it? > > > Strong work, Luke! That does indeed look nice. :) >> i think that's it (oh, except the step needs adjusting to 15mil not >> 5mil as it is now). now i have to identify where in the PADS file the >> rectangle for the keepout area is, add *that* to the parser as well, >> then do the same maths and create a tethered keepout area. *sigh*... > > I'm sorry I didn't fill in more of the geometric considerations. > Looks like you have them in hand. in drunken-walk programming style .... yyyeah :) > When the step offset is d, then the 45 degree step travel will be sqrt(2.0) * d. > > Looks like you have the starting positions parallel which was the > intent but I did not specify the mathematics. I didn't know what > origin or reference point and direction you would like to use. i had the picture you drew memorised in my mind and realised the mistake. so... ah.... key question here... is the taper needed or not? :) should i instead be just setting 15mil clearance all round? (and put a GND keepout underneath the ESD)? l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 05:16:47 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:16:47 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 9:05 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > so... ah.... key question here... is the taper needed or not? :) The taper is a nice idea for changing the context smoothly but it requires enough space that we can't return to our original context before the cable connector (which is specified to be 100 Ohms). So I think we're better off living with the small, brief discontinuities due to incursions into our design geometrical constraints, than introducing a hulking change in our design geometrical constraints to cover up the incursions (with the likely effect of changing our impedance) and having no space left to taper the new impedance to 100 Ohm at the connector. > should i instead be just setting 15mil clearance all round? (and put > a GND keepout underneath the ESD)? Are there signals beneath the ESD components on layer 3 or 4? If not, we could put our ground reference planes on those layers under the ESD components which would move them both one layer deeper. (We already have several conveniently placed ground vias.) Otherwise, I would just copy the lands for the ESD pads connected to the high-speed signals and put them as ground keepouts on the normal ground reference planes. (In other words, only keep out the copper on the reference plane just under the signal path where it goes through a wide pad for the ESD component.) Likewise with the connector, I would put a ground keep out under the lands on layer 2 (probably best to just draw a keepout under the whole connector on layer 2) but allow layer 5 to provide a full ground shield. (Provided my assumption is correct that the connector is soldered on layer 1.) From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 05:23:36 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:23:36 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 9:05 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > should i instead be just setting 15mil clearance all round? I would suggest trying to maintain 15mil clearance when possible. But it is not the end of the world if it can't be maintained--especially over short distances. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Dec 18 05:24:37 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 05:24:37 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 5:23 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 9:05 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: >> should i instead be just setting 15mil clearance all round? > > I would suggest trying to maintain 15mil clearance when possible. But > it is not the end of the world if it can't be maintained--especially > over short distances. ok cool. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Dec 18 05:11:12 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 05:11:12 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] zc706 risc-v Message-ID: ha! cool! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 80592 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Dec 18 05:28:55 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 05:28:55 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 9:05 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: >> so... ah.... key question here... is the taper needed or not? :) > > The taper is a nice idea for changing the context smoothly but it > requires enough space that we can't return to our original context > before the cable connector (which is specified to be 100 Ohms). So I > think we're better off living with the small, brief discontinuities > due to incursions into our design geometrical constraints, than > introducing a hulking change in our design geometrical constraints to > cover up the incursions (with the likely effect of changing our > impedance) and having no space left to taper the new impedance to 100 > Ohm at the connector. aw poop! i went to all the trouble of writing a parser for PADS :) >> should i instead be just setting 15mil clearance all round? (and put >> a GND keepout underneath the ESD)? > > Are there signals beneath the ESD components on layer 3 or 4? it seems i am sensible enough not to have done that :) > If not, > we could put our ground reference planes on those layers under the ESD > components which would move them both one layer deeper. (We already > have several conveniently placed ground vias.) Otherwise, I would > just copy the lands for the ESD pads connected to the high-speed > signals and put them as ground keepouts on the normal ground reference > planes. makes sense to me > (In other words, only keep out the copper on the reference > plane just under the signal path where it goes through a wide pad for > the ESD component.) including the 5 mil track *between* the ESD pads, or excluding that? so literally just the ESD pads, yeah? > Likewise with the connector, I would put a ground keep out under the > lands on layer 2 (probably best to just draw a keepout under the whole > connector on layer 2) including for the HSCL, HHPD and even the GND pads? of course there's VIAs connecting the tracks in between the diff-pairs > but allow layer 5 to provide a full ground > shield. (Provided my assumption is correct that the connector is > soldered on layer 1.) it is. l. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 55628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 05:45:10 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 22:45:10 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry for my long response times the last several weeks. I added choir director to my collection of hats, 6 rehearsals, and performed 3 carols at the Christmas program on the 9th. I performed a piano trio arrangement of a carol with my daughters on the 9th (Christmas program) and 16th (cello recital). I accompanied 3 chamber groups at their Fall final concert on the 13th. I accompanied 4 elementary school string orchestras at a fundraiser on the 15th. I played the organ for a church service on the 16th. This week looks to be a lot slower: my daughter only has one concert, I have a choir rehearsal and to organize a piano trio or quartet for this weekend. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Dec 18 05:55:44 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 05:55:44 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 5:45 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > Sorry for my long response times the last several weeks. I added > choir director to my collection of hats, :) > 6 rehearsals, and performed 3 > carols at the Christmas program on the 9th. I performed a piano trio > arrangement of a carol with my daughters on the 9th (Christmas > program) and 16th (cello recital). I accompanied 3 chamber groups at > their Fall final concert on the 13th. I accompanied 4 elementary > school string orchestras at a fundraiser on the 15th. I played the > organ for a church service on the 16th. This week looks to be a lot > slower: my daughter only has one concert, I have a choir rehearsal > and to organize a piano trio or quartet for this weekend. nice! when i was in cambridge i joined a choir and formed a medieval music group. interestingly because of that i gained both perfect pitch *and* the ability to tell the time to the minute (lost now). i used to confuse the hell of of people asking me for the time, being able to respond correctly and instantly... they'd go and ask someone else and get the exact same answer :) the choir was open access (no auditions), you just turned up, which a lot of people liked: no cliques, no pressure. we did Handel's Messiah jaezzuss we made a hell of an impression: five HUNDRED people and a full orchestra. it was aweesome. the next one we did Mozart's Requiem and that one... how does it go.. "Verbegaal auu tre-ooo (tres haut)..." it's the one the mice sing in the film "Babe"... :) yeah. i miss singing. l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 06:03:17 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:03:17 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 10:28 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > aw poop! i went to all the trouble of writing a parser for PADS :) That is pretty cool. Now you have a way to algorithmically generate traces. I'm sorry we didn't need it, yet. >> Are there signals beneath the ESD components on layer 3 or 4? > > it seems i am sensible enough not to have done that :) > >> If not, >> we could put our ground reference planes on those layers under the ESD >> components which would move them both one layer deeper. (We already >> have several conveniently placed ground vias.) So it might be easier to just put a ground keepout on layer 2 under the ESD component on layer 1 and a corresponding ground fill on layer 3. Likewise a ground keepout on layer 5 under the ESD component(s) on layer 6 and a corresponding ground fill on layer 4. (The "otherwise" case below is given in case you feel more comfortable putting keepouts on layers 2 and 5 than changing layers 3 and 4.) >> Otherwise, I would >> just copy the lands for the ESD pads connected to the high-speed >> signals and put them as ground keepouts on the normal ground reference >> planes. > > makes sense to me > >> (In other words, only keep out the copper on the reference >> plane just under the signal path where it goes through a wide pad for >> the ESD component.) > > including the 5 mil track *between* the ESD pads, or excluding that? > so literally just the ESD pads, yeah? I was recommending just under the ESD pads specifically for the high-frequency differential signals. > >> Likewise with the connector, I would put a ground keep out under the >> lands on layer 2 (probably best to just draw a keepout under the whole >> connector on layer 2) > > including for the HSCL, HHPD and even the GND pads? of course there's > VIAs connecting the tracks in between the diff-pairs Wouldn't have to I suppose but the idea is to move the ground further away from the high-frequency pads to reduce the capacitive coupling thus increasing the impedance. Thus I think it's probably best to extend the layer 2 keepout under the whole connector. >> but allow layer 5 to provide a full ground >> shield. (Provided my assumption is correct that the connector is >> soldered on layer 1.) > > it is. Yay! From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Dec 18 06:20:39 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 06:20:39 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 6:03 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > So it might be easier to just put a ground keepout on layer 2 under > the ESD component on layer 1 and a corresponding ground fill on layer > 3. Likewise a ground keepout on layer 5 under the ESD component(s) on > layer 6 and a corresponding ground fill on layer 4. yehyeh. ah.... do you mean the *whole* component? conflicts with putting keepout(s) under individual pads... > I was recommending just under the ESD pads specifically for the > high-frequency differential signals. conflicts with words above about "GND keepout under ESD components"... >> >>> Likewise with the connector, I would put a ground keep out under the >>> lands on layer 2 (probably best to just draw a keepout under the whole >>> connector on layer 2) >> >> including for the HSCL, HHPD and even the GND pads? of course there's >> VIAs connecting the tracks in between the diff-pairs > > Wouldn't have to I suppose but the idea is to move the ground further > away from the high-frequency pads to reduce the capacitive coupling > thus increasing the impedance. Thus I think it's probably best to > extend the layer 2 keepout under the whole connector. got it. l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 06:31:00 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:31:00 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 11:20 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 6:03 AM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: > >> So it might be easier to just put a ground keepout on layer 2 under >> the ESD component on layer 1 and a corresponding ground fill on layer >> 3. Likewise a ground keepout on layer 5 under the ESD component(s) on >> layer 6 and a corresponding ground fill on layer 4. > > yehyeh. ah.... do you mean the *whole* component? conflicts with > putting keepout(s) under individual pads... > >> I was recommending just under the ESD pads specifically for the >> high-frequency differential signals. > > conflicts with words above about "GND keepout under ESD components"... Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't very clear about delineating the difference between two options for dealing with the ESD component pads. 1. Ground keepout under whole ESD component(s) on adjacent reference ground plane (layer 2 for ESD on layer 1, layer 5 for ESD on layer 6), ground fill on deeper layer (layer 3 for ESD on layer 1, layer 4 for ESD on layer 6). Ground fills connected as always using vias (some probably already adjacent). 2. Ground keepouts under just high-frequency signal pads of ESD components on adjacent reference ground plane (layer 2 for ESD on layer 1, layer 5 for ESD on layer 6). Clear as mud? From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Dec 18 06:34:41 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 06:34:41 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't very clear about delineating > the difference between two options for dealing with the ESD component > pads. i was wondering which one to deploy. > 1. Ground keepout under whole ESD component(s) on adjacent reference > ground plane (layer 2 for ESD on layer 1, layer 5 for ESD on layer 6), > ground fill on deeper layer (layer 3 for ESD on layer 1, layer 4 for > ESD on layer 6). Ground fills connected as always using vias (some > probably already adjacent). > 2. Ground keepouts under just high-frequency signal pads of ESD > components on adjacent reference ground plane (layer 2 for ESD on > layer 1, layer 5 for ESD on layer 6). > > Clear as mud? clear... except which one to actually deploy :) l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 07:02:37 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 00:02:37 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: >> 1. Ground keepout under whole ESD component(s) on adjacent reference >> ground plane (layer 2 for ESD on layer 1, layer 5 for ESD on layer 6), >> ground fill on deeper layer (layer 3 for ESD on layer 1, layer 4 for >> ESD on layer 6). Ground fills connected as always using vias (some >> probably already adjacent). >> 2. Ground keepouts under just high-frequency signal pads of ESD >> components on adjacent reference ground plane (layer 2 for ESD on >> layer 1, layer 5 for ESD on layer 6). >> >> Clear as mud? > > clear... except which one to actually deploy :) Well, I read about #2 in the TI High-Speed Layout but I like #1 better because we have high-frequency signals in parallel on both sides of the board and I'd feel better because I expect less cross-talk with #1. #1 is a hybrid where we double the distance to the reference ground plane but still have ground shield between high-frequency signals that would otherwise want to radiate/couple. From contact at paulk.fr Mon Dec 18 07:42:56 2017 From: contact at paulk.fr (Paul Kocialkowski) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:42:56 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM Hardware Enablement Devroom In-Reply-To: References: <1510570651.1176.2.camel@paulk.fr> Message-ID: <1513582976.1214.5.camel@paulk.fr> Hi, Le vendredi 15 décembre 2017 à 12:14 +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton a écrit : > On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Paul Kocialkowski > wrote: > > > A Hardware Enablement devroom will be taking place at FOSDEM this > > year, > > on Sunday 10 December 2017. This newly-created devroom is the result > > of > > 3 proposals that were merged together. It is co-organized by several > > individuals. > > > hiya paul so as you saw i put in 3 (short!!) talks, as advised, and > one of them was slurped up by the Open Hardware devroom already, and > is accepted (the one on... on... "componetn sourcing" as it's not > actually "hardware enablement" per se). > > anyway tristan, organiser of the open hardware devroom, made a > suggestion, "why not ask if the Libre RISC-V SoC talk would be > worthwhile moving to Main Track?". > > so, anyway, following up on that idea, who is organising the HW-En > talks and who is organising the main ones, so it could be considered? > still keeping it SHORT at the same time, still - 15-20 mins. I definitely think you should try and submit this talk to main tracks. Actually, we have not selected this talk for the devroom (we instead kept the EOMA68 talk) as it is more related to hardware design than hardware support. Thanks a lot for the submission, I'm looking forward to meeting you at FOSDEM :) Cheers -- Paul Kocialkowski, developer of free digital technology and hardware support Website: https://www.paulk.fr/ Coding blog: https://code.paulk.fr/ Git repositories: https://git.paulk.fr/ https://git.code.paulk.fr/ From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Dec 18 07:50:15 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 07:50:15 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] FOSDEM Hardware Enablement Devroom In-Reply-To: <1513582976.1214.5.camel@paulk.fr> References: <1510570651.1176.2.camel@paulk.fr> <1513582976.1214.5.camel@paulk.fr> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 7:42 AM, Paul Kocialkowski wrote: >> so, anyway, following up on that idea, who is organising the HW-En >> talks and who is organising the main ones, so it could be considered? >> still keeping it SHORT at the same time, still - 15-20 mins. > > I definitely think you should try and submit this talk to main tracks. > Actually, we have not selected this talk for the devroom (we instead > kept the EOMA68 talk) as it is more related to hardware design than > hardware support. yaa makes sense, mann. if there was a "RISC-V" track... or... something... https://fosdem.org/2018/schedule/track/cad_and_open_hardware/ is more about PCB design, design of PCB tools, how to program FPGAs... > Thanks a lot for the submission, I'm looking forward to meeting you at > FOSDEM :) :) From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Dec 18 10:02:23 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 10:02:23 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 7:02 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: >> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Richard Wilbur >> wrote: >>> 1. Ground keepout under whole ESD component(s) on adjacent reference >>> ground plane (layer 2 for ESD on layer 1, layer 5 for ESD on layer 6), >>> ground fill on deeper layer (layer 3 for ESD on layer 1, layer 4 for >>> ESD on layer 6). Ground fills connected as always using vias (some >>> probably already adjacent). >> >> clear... except which one to actually deploy :) > > Well, I read about #2 in the TI High-Speed Layout but I like #1 better > because we have high-frequency signals in parallel on both sides of > the board and I'd feel better because I expect less cross-talk with > #1. #1 is a hybrid where we double the distance to the reference > ground plane but still have ground shield between high-frequency > signals that would otherwise want to radiate/couple. yehyeh, makes sense to me. okay! it's also much more straightforward. l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 14:55:21 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 07:55:21 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 3:02 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 7:02 AM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> wrote: >>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Richard Wilbur >>> wrote: >>>> 1. Ground keepout under whole ESD component(s) on adjacent reference >>>> ground plane (layer 2 for ESD on layer 1, layer 5 for ESD on layer 6), >>>> ground fill on deeper layer (layer 3 for ESD on layer 1, layer 4 for >>>> ESD on layer 6). Ground fills connected as always using vias (some >>>> probably already adjacent). > >>> >>> clear... except which one to actually deploy :) >> >> Well, I read about #2 in the TI High-Speed Layout but I like #1 better >> because we have high-frequency signals in parallel on both sides of >> the board and I'd feel better because I expect less cross-talk with >> #1. #1 is a hybrid where we double the distance to the reference >> ground plane but still have ground shield between high-frequency >> signals that would otherwise want to radiate/couple. > > yehyeh, makes sense to me. okay! it's also much more straightforward. After sleeping on it, I'd recommend making the new, deeper ground fill slightly larger (~5mil? margin) than the ground keepout on the original reference plane--as long as that's not too hard to accomplish. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Dec 18 15:27:38 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 15:27:38 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 3:02 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: >> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 7:02 AM, Richard Wilbur >> wrote: >>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >>> wrote: >>>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Richard Wilbur >>>> wrote: >>>>> 1. Ground keepout under whole ESD component(s) on adjacent reference >>>>> ground plane (layer 2 for ESD on layer 1, layer 5 for ESD on layer 6), >>>>> ground fill on deeper layer (layer 3 for ESD on layer 1, layer 4 for >>>>> ESD on layer 6). Ground fills connected as always using vias (some >>>>> probably already adjacent). >> >>>> >>>> clear... except which one to actually deploy :) >>> >>> Well, I read about #2 in the TI High-Speed Layout but I like #1 better >>> because we have high-frequency signals in parallel on both sides of >>> the board and I'd feel better because I expect less cross-talk with >>> #1. #1 is a hybrid where we double the distance to the reference >>> ground plane but still have ground shield between high-frequency >>> signals that would otherwise want to radiate/couple. >> >> yehyeh, makes sense to me. okay! it's also much more straightforward. > > After sleeping on it, I'd recommend making the new, deeper ground fill > slightly larger (~5mil? margin) than the ground keepout on the > original reference plane--as long as that's not too hard to > accomplish. um... um.... noo shouuuld be fiiine.... niggles: from the last picture you can see i have HHPD coming in at the top. and also i remembered, pin 19 is 5V power, that's coming in (big track, green) on Layer 4. however.... Layer 5 and 3 would have GND surround it, so that's ok. l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 23:38:47 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:38:47 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2017, at 08:27, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: >> >> After sleeping on it, I'd recommend making the new, deeper ground fill >> slightly larger (~5mil? margin) than the ground keepout on the >> original reference plane--as long as that's not too hard to >> accomplish. In this case I was speaking of what I had quoted above this excerpt in its original context which was the treatment of traces beneath the ESD components (not the connector). In fact the trace in the middle of each ESD component is ground and is connected to other ground layers by several vias. Under that trace we might as well have a ribbon of ground plane on layers 2 and 5. > um... um.... noo shouuuld be fiiine.... niggles: from the last > picture you can see i have HHPD coming in at the top. and also i > remembered, pin 19 is 5V power, that's coming in (big track, green) on > Layer 4. however.... Layer 5 and 3 would have GND surround it, so > that's ok. Looks fine. As long as the high-frequency pins of the connector land on layer 1 with an unobstructed view of the ground plane on layer 5, I think we will have achieved our goal (moving the ground plane deeper in order to try and maintain ~100Ω differential impedance). From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 20 06:40:14 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 06:40:14 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: okaay, so this is what i've done: expanded the layer 1 keepout (manually) to as near to 15mil as i can get. then added 2 keepouts on layers 2 and 5. the line on the right is the board edge, so it goes *right* out: the connector shield is there, i figure it can catch EMI. plus there's layers 3 and 4 GND plane. layer 5 is over BOTTOM (6, blue), that one i made just a rectangle, extending out an extra 5 mil. however there's obviously VIAs in it which... really... why make it 5 mil beyond and you still have those VIAs? also, should i put a horizontal track across on Layer 5, say 10mil wide, between the 3 GND vias down the middle? layer 2 is under TOP (1, red), the shape is a little more... slightly messy, it goes round the connector (again extending right out over the board edge, otherwise not enough space to maintain 15mil clearance), and this time because there *is* no keepout area on layer 6 (should there be one? i think i should, really.... hmmmm.) i brought the keepout to within 15 mil of the ESD... hmmm... i'll add an extra keepout area around where those red (layer 1) tracks are, i think. thoughts / corrections appreciated l. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 00:21:26 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 19:21:26 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Free software possibly abusing network effect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correction, that was actually within an hour. I guess with all the headaches there website gave me, it felt instantaneous by comparison. On 12/20/17, Jean Flamelle wrote: > https://github.com/urbit/urbit/issues/911 > > Curtis Yarvin (a.k.a. "Mencius Moldbug") leads a project called urbit > to 1. create a virtual machine using lambda calculus instead of > bytecode and 2. create a reputation network based on purchasing stake > on namespace and stakeholders ruling the network how they see fit. > > I outline my chief problem with this in the issue which was closed > literally within minutes. I would like more people to weigh in here. > What do any of you feel about my predictions and my morals in this > situation? > From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Dec 21 05:28:38 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 05:28:38 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Free software possibly abusing network effect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM, Jean Flamelle wrote: > https://github.com/urbit/urbit/issues/911 > > Curtis Yarvin (a.k.a. "Mencius Moldbug") leads a project called urbit > to 1. create a virtual machine using lambda calculus instead of > bytecode and 2. create a reputation network based on purchasing stake > on namespace and stakeholders ruling the network how they see fit. i've studied things like advogato, and keynote (IETF RFC 2704), the problems i'm seeing you describe there, if i can summarise in my own words and you can correct me: (1) they're setting themselves up as a sole exclusive gateway. *they* are in control... thus it's no different from the USA controlling DNS by controlling the root-level DNS servers. (2) ticket touts (aka "cyber squatting"). the problem with DNS is: once someone's registered a domain that's it, they can charge you whatever they like. in this case it's EVEN WORSE than the DNS registration system as there's no authority you can appeal to to reclaim a name... thus your ENTIRE BUSINESS can be phished by a cyber squatter. does that sound like a reasonable summary? (1) cartel (2) ticket tout. > I outline my chief problem with this in the issue which was closed > literally within minutes. that should tell you everything you need to know. > I would like more people to weigh in here. > What do any of you feel about my predictions and my morals in this > situation? it looks similar to blockstack, where, bless 'em, that team clearly have their hearts in the right place... designing something that is entirely libre, they've even set themselves up as a Benefit Corporation... .... aand they're recommending that in order to discuss how to free yourself from data privacy invasions and design apps that allow users control of their data... you should REGISTER ON SLACK!!!! gaah :) more fundamentally than that, their entire protocol yet again sets themselves up as "my gateway or the highway". they've not realised that they've set themselves up as a cartel. sure, the source code is available!! but that's absolutely no good WHATSOEVER if, when you set up your OWN network, you are FORCED out: YOUR users cannot interact with THEIR users. so they *talk* of it being decentralised peer-to-peer but have fundamentally failed to understand the concept. oy, oy, what can you do, ehn? :) l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 19:37:25 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 12:37:25 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 11:40 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > okaay, so this is what i've done: expanded the layer 1 keepout > (manually) to as near to 15mil as i can get. Sounds good. I think this would be a good thing for both the TOP (layer 1, red) and BOTTOM (layer 6, blue) along the path of the high-frequency signals (differential pairs). I see it on the BOTTOM but not from the vias towards the ESD component on the TOP? We know ahead of time there will be things that can't move outside the keepout but it will at least keep the ground fill at bay. > then added 2 keepouts on > layers 2 and 5. the line on the right is the board edge, so it goes > *right* out: the connector shield is there, i figure it can catch EMI. > plus there's layers 3 and 4 GND plane. > > layer 5 is over BOTTOM (6, blue), that one i made just a rectangle, > extending out an extra 5 mil. however there's obviously VIAs in it > which... really... why make it 5 mil beyond and you still have those > VIAs? also, should i put a horizontal track across on Layer 5, say > 10mil wide, between the 3 GND vias down the middle? > > layer 2 is under TOP (1, red), the shape is a little more... slightly > messy, it goes round the connector (again extending right out over the > board edge, otherwise not enough space to maintain 15mil clearance), > and this time because there *is* no keepout area on layer 6 (should > there be one? i think i should, really.... hmmmm.) i brought the > keepout to within 15 mil of the ESD... > > hmmm... i'll add an extra keepout area around where those red (layer > 1) tracks are, i think. > > thoughts / corrections appreciated Good work, Luke! Let me try to clarify my recommendations as they seem to have been mixed into one formula: 1. Around high-frequency differential pairs (regardless of layer) try to maintain ~10mil keepout for at least the ground fill in the same layer (BOTTOM = layer 6, blue; TOP = layer 1, red) from the ground and signal vias to the connector. Then terminate the keepout (let it go to the 5mil rule) around the connector on TOP=layer 1. This is a nod to the fact that the spacing of pads is very close anyway. 2. Under ESD components with high-frequency differential pairs: i. I would connect the ground vias along the center ground track on every layer with a 10mil track, if not ground plane or fill. ii. I would create a void in the close ground plane (layer 2 for the ESD component on TOP=layer 1, layer 5 for the ESD component on BOTTOM=layer 6) under the path (pads) of the high-frequency differential pairs. One keepout/void for each differential pair in light of (i) above. iii. On the next deeper layer (layer 3 for the ESD component on TOP=layer 1, layer 4 for the ESD component on BOTTOM=layer 6) create a ground fill connected, if possible to the ground vias in the center of the ESD component and the vias at the corners. 3. Under the high-frequency connector pads, a keepout on layer 2 (3 and 4) ground fill. The intent is that under the HTX?{P|N} connector pads no copper till layer 5 ground fill. Attached pictures hopefully elucidate the situation. Let me know if anything seems amiss or you have any questions. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BOTTOM_mkup.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 100237 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TOP_mkup.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 129762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 19:58:21 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 12:58:21 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: As soon as I sent the last message with the pictures, I realized I hadn't drawn the ground keepout for layers 2,3,4 under the connector. So here's the updated picture. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TOP_mkup.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 137494 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Dec 21 05:43:24 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 05:43:24 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 7:58 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > As soon as I sent the last message with the pictures, I realized I > hadn't drawn the ground keepout for layers 2,3,4 under the connector. > So here's the updated picture. ok cool the pictures i dig :) yes i was thinking similar separation (cyan drawing) with a 10mil horizontal track. on it... From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Dec 21 08:34:10 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 08:34:10 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] https://youtu.be/DRXH-apu2YQ Message-ID: woo! that's running a RISC-V 64-bit RV64G ISA with a *BOOM* core (Berkeley Out-of-Order) rocket-chip. it was a little hairy getting it set up. l. From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 15:15:26 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 10:15:26 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Free software possibly abusing network effect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/21/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > (1) they're setting themselves up as a sole exclusive gateway. > *they* are in control... thus it's no different from the USA > controlling DNS by controlling the root-level DNS servers. > > (2) ticket touts (aka "cyber squatting"). the problem with DNS is: > once someone's registered a domain that's it, they can charge you > whatever they like. in this case it's EVEN WORSE than the DNS > registration system as there's no authority you can appeal to to > reclaim a name... thus your ENTIRE BUSINESS can be phished by a cyber > squatter. > > does that sound like a reasonable summary? (1) cartel (2) ticket tout. In the case of urbit, I'm afraid they will eventually get mainstream appeal, as a network which deters spam. The issue is much much worse than DNS, not because there is no appeal body (there is, kindof). Their "name" system is hierarchal so at the top is the dev team which assigns 0000 0000 through 1111 1111 those then can assign the portion of 00 through FF which is prefixed by their name. So if I literally purchase from the dev team 0101 0101 in their name space, they will write my public key into the source code and I can literally start selling addresses 0101 0101 0000 0000 through 0101 0101 1111 1111. Continuing in this pattern until FFFF FFFF. The problem I see is prefix competition. >> I outline my chief problem with this in the issue which was closed >> literally within minutes. > > that should tell you everything you need to know. [it was an hour to be exact; I exaggerated] > it looks similar to blockstack, where, bless 'em, that team clearly > have their hearts in the right place... designing something that is > entirely libre, they've even set themselves up as a Benefit > Corporation... They even suggest in their docs, when it comes to spam filtering some prefixes will be like bad neighborhoods. There is no rule stopping a prefix owner from demanding (in addition to money) social media passwords, government issued ID, travel records, an test of aquity, or pretty much any of the numerous things that can be done wrong with immigration checks. Why would anyone subject themselves to any of this? To be able to get around a website's spam filter that's why. This fixes captcha, but breaks freedom of information at it's core as well as freedom of speech at its core. I'd like to point out the underlining OS looks like a masterwork they literally described in their whitepaper as something you might find on an alien spaceship. https://media.urbit.org/whitepaper.pdf I'm very afraid they might gain real traction if someone doesn't fork them and create some sort of PKI-linked captcha system. Maybe then they'll fix the error of their ways.. > .... aand they're recommending that in order to discuss how to free > yourself from data privacy invasions and design apps that allow users > control of their data... you should REGISTER ON SLACK!!!! > > gaah :) > > more fundamentally than that, their entire protocol yet again sets > themselves up as "my gateway or the highway". they've not realised > that they've set themselves up as a cartel. sure, the source code is > available!! but that's absolutely no good WHATSOEVER if, when you set > up your OWN network, you are FORCED out: YOUR users cannot interact > with THEIR users. > > so they *talk* of it being decentralised peer-to-peer but have > fundamentally failed to understand the concept. > > oy, oy, what can you do, ehn? :) > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 19:42:39 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 14:42:39 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: <2CA17EE0-79FC-4395-A6CC-68FB6FB5AEBE@mailbox.org> References: <20170712103603.GA16243@pabbook> <2CA17EE0-79FC-4395-A6CC-68FB6FB5AEBE@mailbox.org> Message-ID: When I try to update the wikipage, I get: "An error occurred while writing CGI reply" Fortunately didn't lose anything. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 22 02:41:26 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 02:41:26 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: <20170712103603.GA16243@pabbook> <2CA17EE0-79FC-4395-A6CC-68FB6FB5AEBE@mailbox.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Jean Flamelle wrote: > When I try to update the wikipage, I get: "An error occurred while > writing CGI reply" that shouldn't happen. you've created a login? let's ping phil. > Fortunately didn't lose anything. send it to me, i have git repo access. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 22 08:54:37 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 08:54:37 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/a20/275_hdmi/ ok so this is four pictures, i did flood-fill, i'm going to update them incrementally, for example layer 1 in between the 2 points where the flood-fill keepout is too narrow to let it in (the maximum "curve" is something like 11 mil diameter) i've expanded that to let it in. also layer5 the horizontal track doesn't reach all the way over. the layer2 one i don't exactly know what to do, there's no VIA nearby (and i can't fit one either). this is a pain! i might see if i can set a clearance to GND on individual tracks / connections as opposed to NETs. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 22 14:51:24 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:51:24 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/a20/275_hdmi/ > > ok so this is four pictures, i did flood-fill, i'm going to update > them incrementally, for example layer 1 in between the 2 points where > the flood-fill keepout is too narrow to let it in (the maximum > "curve" is something like 11 mil diameter) i've expanded that to let > it in. also layer5 the horizontal track doesn't reach all the way > over. the layer2 one i don't exactly know what to do, there's no VIA > nearby (and i can't fit one either). > > this is a pain! i might see if i can set a clearance to GND on > individual tracks / connections as opposed to NETs. ok that worked. just uploading a video here: https://youtu.be/LfQc89CS4m0 turns out that there's a feature i'd not used before, called "conditional rules". you can specify that *if* GND meets HDMI Group, clearance rules shall be different. ordinarily you have to forcibly set the *entire* GND plane to specific clearances (to ALL objects), or the *entire* HDMI group to specific clearances (to ALL objects)... this "conditional" rule does the trick. richard i go over it in the video but i believe the layer... 5 keepout needs to also be extended under the layer 6 (blue, bottom) tracks leading to the VIAs that jump up to the DC3 connector pads. also i believe that i should be adding some tracks (pink) which, particularly if there is to be a hole in layer 5 underneath, should be around a 5 mil clearance, to match the fact that it's swapping vertical distance for horizontal distance, what do you think? l. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eaterjolly at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 19:52:27 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:52:27 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: <20170712103603.GA16243@pabbook> <2CA17EE0-79FC-4395-A6CC-68FB6FB5AEBE@mailbox.org> Message-ID: On 12/21/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > that shouldn't happen. you've created a login? let's ping phil. Yu, and its worked before. [Btw, does look much better with a monospace font and spaces instead of tabs; Some one should patch ikiwiki to display source in a monospaced font.] -------------- next part -------------- # DRAFT STATUS Proposed Software Libre Development Best Practices This is a document which outlines best practices for establishing and maintaining a healthy and thriving Software Libre Project. Mostly it describes a set of criteria for the hosting and communication infrastructure which are most likely to result in good communication, teamwork and mutual respect between developers themselves and also developers and users. However also included are a series of guidelines for personal interactions. The initial version is based on the GNU Project's Software Development Services that they offer to GNU Projects, but generalised. Also the Maintainer's Guide : This contains important details such as a record of contributors and their contributions (typically covered by a signed-off git commit but better is "significant contributors" at the top of the file). Reason: many distros simply will not package software that has legally dubious origin. A verifiable chain of copyright declarations is *important*. Also under consideration is the recommendation to take a "Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers": The primary draft which seems to well follow the original Medical Oath is here: Also under consideration is for a project to have a Charter (such as the Apache Software Foundation Charter) Also some Coding Standards, e.g. Draft to generalize the GNU Project's Software Development Services offered to GNU Projects (): * we recommend the use of a Libre Hosting Service which has a minimum criteria of an A, as defined by the [FSF's Hosting Criteria](https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria.en.html) * we recommend the use of software libre hosted mailing lists * we recommend to host the webpages for the project using resources that meet the FSF's Hosting Criteria * we recommend to release your project under a free software license (see ) * we recommend to release build and test procedures *if used and/or needed* under a free software license (see ) * tbc # Table of well-known software libre projects Please ensure that things are filled in only from "official" channels as indicated from the web site (if there is one). For example samba has an official page which outlines their IRC channels. If however there is something that is really very well-known but is "unofficial" please do include it but mark it as such. The linux kernel for example has well-known places that it is developed, and the Distros in particular will have extremely well-known but "unofficial" support channels that will be relevant. # Interoperability Projects | Project Name (linking website) | Samba | Wine | | | |---------------------------------------|---------|------|---|---| | Foundation | No | | | | | "Ownership" Transfer Contributions | No | | | | | Charter | None | | | | | Communication Guidelines Media | Mailing List - Commit | | | | | Mailing Lists per Language* | 6 English - 1 French - 1 Italian | | | | Editable Wikipages | Yes | | | | | IRC/Chatroom | Yes | | | | | Forums | No | | | | | Translation Aides | None | | | | | Fork-able Web Data | Unclear | | | | | Only Libre Dependencies | Yes | | | | | "Copyleft" | Yes | | | | | Only "Copyleft" Dependencies | No | | | | | Fork-able Documentation Platforms | Yes | | | | | "Copyleft" Documentation Platforms | | | | | *Not counting other courteously hosted projects, only if they have their own project website. | Communication Guidelines per Media | Medium - Words - Anchors - Sections | 2nd Medium - Words - Anchors - Sections | | ------------------------------------- | ----------------------------------- | --------------------------------------- | | Project | ----------------------------------- | --------------------------------------- | | Samba | Email - 407 - 0 - 10 | Commit - 111 - 0 - 6 | | Wine | | | Citations | [Samba](https://www.samba.org) | # Audio-Visual Projects | Project Name (linking website) | Apertus | | | | | |-------------------------------------------------|---|---|---|---| | Chatroom | IRC - freenode - #apertus | | | | | | Mailing Lists | Google "Group" - [considering savannah](https://groups.google.com/d/msg/axiom-community/yNli6E4SkV8/CQa3VVeuBAAJ) | | | | | | Forums | no || | | | | Foundation | Austrian-registered "Association" | | | | | Charter | [Bylaws](https://www.apertus.org/association-bylaws) || | | | | Code of Conduct | none | | | | | | Copyright Assignment Required | no | | | | | | Libre License | GPLv3 | | | | | | Libre Server Code | no, but ok w/o scripts | | | | | | VCS / Libre Hosted? | github - not libre | | | | | | Bug Tracker / Libre Hosted? | phabricator - yes | | | | | # 2D and 3D editing Projects (Image, PCB, CAD) | Project Name (linking website) | Inkscape | GIMP | Blender | KiCAD | |-------------------------------------------------|---|---|---|---| | Chatroom | | | | | | Mailing Lists | | | | | | Forums | | | | | | Foundation | | | | | | Charter | | | | | | Code of Conduct | | | | | | Copyright Assignment Required | | | | | | Libre License | | | | | | Libre Server Code | | | | | | VCS - Libre hosted? | | | | | | Bug Tracker - Libre Hosted? | | | | | # Web Browser Projects | Project Name (linking website) | Firefox | Webkit | Blink (Chromium) | Netsurf | |-------------------------------------------------|---|---|---|---| | Chatroom | | | | | | Mailing Lists | | | | | | Forums | | | | | | Foundation | | | | | | Charter | | | | | | Code of Conduct | | | | | | Copyright Assignment Required | | | | | | Libre License | | | | | | Libre Server Code | | | | | | VCS - Libre hosted? | | | | | | Bug Tracker - Libre Hosted? | | | | | # Distros | Project Name (linking website) | Arch | Debian | Ubuntu | Slackware | Gentoo | FreeBSD | |-------------------------------------------------|---|---|---|---| | Chatroom | | | | | | Mailing Lists | | | | | | Forums | | | | | | Foundation | | | | | | Charter | | | | | | Code of Conduct | | | | | | Copyright Assignment Required | | | | | | Libre License | | | | | | Libre Server Code | | | | | | VCS - Libre hosted? | | | | | | Bug Tracker - Libre Hosted? | | | | | # Desktop Environments | Project Name (linking website) | Gnome 3 | Gnome 2 | KDE | TDE | EWM | fvwm2 | |-------------------------------------------------|---|---|---|---| | Chatroom | | | | | | Mailing Lists | | | | | | Forums | | | | | | Foundation | | | | | | Charter | | | | | | Code of Conduct | | | | | | Copyright Assignment Required | | | | | | Libre License | | | | | | Libre Server Code | | | | | | VCS - Libre hosted? | | | | | | Bug Tracker - Libre Hosted? | | | | | # Kernels | Project Name (linking website) | Linux | FreeBSD | | | |-------------------------------------------------|---|---|---|---| | Chatroom | | | | | | Mailing Lists | | | | | | Forums | | | | | | Foundation | | | | | | Charter | | | | | | Code of Conduct | | | | | | Copyright Assignment Required | | | | | | Libre License | | | | | | Libre Server Code | | | | | | VCS - Libre hosted? | | | | | | Bug Tracker - Libre Hosted? | | | | | # TBD | Urbit | | | | | | | | | | Cygwin | | | | | | | | | | GNU gcc | | | | | | | | | | ReactOS | | | | | | | | | | Python | | | | | | | | | | Perl | | | | | | | | | | Exim4 | | | | | | | | | | sendmail | | | | | | | | | | postfix | | | | | | | | | | systemd | | | | | | | | | | openrc | | | | | | | | | | mysqldb | | | | | | | | | | mariadb | | | | | | | | | | openoffice | | | | | | | | | | libreoffice | | | | | | | | | | X11 | | | | | | | | | | xorg | | | | | | | | | | Kerberos | | | | | | | | | | Heimdal | | | | | | | | | | OpenLDAP | | | | | | | | | | Misc. | | | | | | | | | # Template | Project Name (linking website) | | | | | |-------------------------------------------------|---|---|---|---| | Established Date | | | | | | Chatroom | | | | | | Mailing Lists / ML etiquette | | | | | | Forums | | | | | | Foundation | | | | | | Charter | | | | | | Code of Conduct | | | | | | Copyright Assignment Required | | | | | | Libre Licensed source | | | | | | Libre Licensed web site source | | | | | | Libre Licensed documentation source | | | | | | Libre Web Browser compliant (librejs or no js) | | | | | | VCS - Libre hosted? | | | | | | Bug Tracker - Libre Hosted? | | | | | From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 21:37:07 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:37:07 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2017, at 07:51, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: […] >> this is a pain! i might see if i can set a clearance to GND on >> individual tracks / connections as opposed to NETs. > > ok that worked. just uploading a video here: > > https://youtu.be/LfQc89CS4m0 > > turns out that there's a feature i'd not used before, called > "conditional rules". you can specify that *if* GND meets HDMI Group, > clearance rules shall be different. ordinarily you have to forcibly > set the *entire* GND plane to specific clearances (to ALL objects), or > the *entire* HDMI group to specific clearances (to ALL objects)... > this "conditional" rule does the trick. Nice work! That certainly simplifies things! > richard i go over it in the video but i believe the layer... 5 > keepout needs to also be extended under the layer 6 (blue, bottom) > tracks leading to the VIAs that jump up to the DC3 connector pads. > also i believe that i should be adding some tracks (pink) which, > particularly if there is to be a hole in layer 5 underneath, should be > around a 5 mil clearance, to match the fact that it's swapping > vertical distance for horizontal distance, what do you think? I believe that the right thing is to not extend the layer 5 ground keepout under the differential nets on their way out to the connector because it is the ground plane for layer 6. The reason for dropping the ground plane under the connector pins (layer 1) from layer 2 to layer 5 is that the pins are so close to each other. But we are still interested in the shielding effect of ground plane below the high-frequency signals (on the differential pairs) on layer 1 and between the signals on layer 1 and those sneaking under on layer 6. That's my reason for keeping layer 5 ground fill everywhere except under the layer 6 high-frequency pads of the ESD (where he drop to ground on layer 4). From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 22:32:29 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 15:32:29 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Here's another view of the connector end with some slight revisions of the ground fill and keepout boundaries between the ESD and connector components. Summary: 1. I moved the East extent of the layer 3 ground fill east to the edge of the connector pads. 2. The layer 2 ground keepout remains open under the high-frequency pads of both the ESD component and the connector. 3. The layer 2,3,4 ground keepout West edge moved with the East edge of the layer 3 ground fill to the edge of the connector pads. Thanks for the images and video, Luke. Basically, this change is an attempt to drop from layer 1 microstrips over layer 2 ground in the normal transmission line to layer 1 microstrips over layer 3 ground as we pass through the ESD component layout and on to the connector at which point we transition to layer 1 pads (close spacing) over layer 5 ground. On the other side we have layer 6 microstrips over layer 5 ground in the normal transmission line. We transition to layer 6 microstrips over layer 4 ground as we pass through the ESD component layout. We move back to layer 6 microstrips over layer 5 ground on the way to the vias that will connect us to layer 1 connector pads. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TOP_mkup.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 137202 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 23 03:22:51 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 03:22:51 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 9:37 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > On Dec 22, 2017, at 07:51, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> wrote: > […] >>> this is a pain! i might see if i can set a clearance to GND on >>> individual tracks / connections as opposed to NETs. >> >> ok that worked. just uploading a video here: >> >> https://youtu.be/LfQc89CS4m0 >> >> turns out that there's a feature i'd not used before, called >> "conditional rules". you can specify that *if* GND meets HDMI Group, >> clearance rules shall be different. ordinarily you have to forcibly >> set the *entire* GND plane to specific clearances (to ALL objects), or >> the *entire* HDMI group to specific clearances (to ALL objects)... >> this "conditional" rule does the trick. > > Nice work! That certainly simplifies things! tell me about it. and also makes for much cleaner / accurate separation. > I believe that the right thing is to not extend the layer 5 ground > keepout under the differential nets on their way out to the connector > because it is the ground plane for layer 6. that makes sense. > The reason for dropping the ground plane under the connector pins > (layer 1) from layer 2 to layer 5 is that the pins are so close to each other. yyeahhh but so are the pins on the bottom layer ESD... which are covered by the layer 5 GND keepout hole... it was under the connector i was concerned about, with the VIAs on pins 4 10 and 16 (right-hand row of 9) being guard VIAs that are within 5mil of HTX1P/N and THXCP/N... > But we are still interested in the shielding effect of ground plane > below the high-frequency signals (on the differential pairs) on > layer 1 and between the signals on layer 1 and those sneaking > under on layer 6. yehyeh. > That's my reason for keeping layer 5 ground fill everywhere > except under the layer 6 high-frequency pads of the ESD > (where he drop to ground on layer 4). yehyeh, with you. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 23 03:38:48 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 03:38:48 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 10:32 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > Here's another view of the connector end with some slight revisions of > the ground fill and keepout boundaries between the ESD and connector > components. > > Summary: > > 1. I moved the East extent of the layer 3 ground fill east to the > edge of the connector pads. ok remember that ground flood-fill is the entire layer 3, i'm not creating a *specific* area for ground "fill", it's done by default according to the (specified) design rules. with the new "conditional" rule added, layer 3 now looks like this: http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/a20/275_hdmi/layer3.jpg so there's a few things i need to sort out, which i'll get to: main reason for showing that image is: the clearance to the VIAs has also extended to 15mil now. i believe it's not so much the vias though as the tracks connected *to* the vias. if there has to be a 5 mil clearance to those i can... maybe sort something out :) > 2. The layer 2 ground keepout remains open under the high-frequency > pads of both the ESD component and the connector. ok cool. > 3. The layer 2,3,4 ground keepout West edge moved with the East edge > of the layer 3 ground fill to the edge of the connector pads. oh wait... i haven't put in a keepout *at all* on layers 3 and 4. you think it would be best to punch the hole *right* down so that it's only layer 5 providing a GND plane for both sides? it makes sense, i just want to confirm. > Thanks for the images and video, Luke. ehn the vides are fun :) l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 04:13:23 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 21:13:23 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <649F5448-2DE3-4E45-9CFE-826D928E72A3@gmail.com> On Dec 22, 2017, at 20:22, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 9:37 PM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: >> >> The reason for dropping the ground plane under the connector pins >> (layer 1) from layer 2 to layer 5 is that the pins are so close to each other. > > yyeahhh but so are the pins on the bottom layer ESD... which are > covered by the layer 5 GND keepout hole... it was under the connector > i was concerned about, with the VIAs on pins 4 10 and 16 (right-hand > row of 9) being guard VIAs that are within 5mil of HTX1P/N and > THXCP/N... Those ground vias I'm not so worried about as they don't look so much different to the proximity of neighbouring connector pins. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 04:26:34 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 21:26:34 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6C61086D-6BEA-47D1-B2FD-3F91F94B0591@gmail.com> On Dec 22, 2017, at 20:38, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 10:32 PM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: >> Here's another view of the connector end with some slight revisions of >> the ground fill and keepout boundaries between the ESD and connector >> components. >> >> Summary: >> >> 1. I moved the East extent of the layer 3 ground fill east to the >> edge of the connector pads. > > ok remember that ground flood-fill is the entire layer 3, i'm not > creating a *specific* area for ground "fill", it's done by default > according to the (specified) design rules. with the new "conditional" > rule added, layer 3 now looks like this: > http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/a20/275_hdmi/layer3.jpg > > so there's a few things i need to sort out, which i'll get to: main > reason for showing that image is: the clearance to the VIAs has also > extended to 15mil now. i believe it's not so much the vias though as > the tracks connected *to* the vias. if there has to be a 5 mil > clearance to those i can... maybe sort something out :) 15mil clearance to HDMI nets and vias won't hurt anybody's feelings! Looks good (minus the keepout under the connector). […] >> 3. The layer 2,3,4 ground keepout West edge moved with the East edge >> of the layer 3 ground fill to the edge of the connector pads. > > oh wait... i haven't put in a keepout *at all* on layers 3 and 4. > you think it would be best to punch the hole *right* down so that it's > only layer 5 providing a GND plane for both sides? it makes sense, i > just want to confirm. Yes, that is what I was asking for under the high-frequency differential signals at the connector. If you have reservations about it, let me know. I'm happy to get feedback from another perspective. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 23 05:42:25 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 05:42:25 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: <649F5448-2DE3-4E45-9CFE-826D928E72A3@gmail.com> References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <649F5448-2DE3-4E45-9CFE-826D928E72A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 4:13 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > Those ground vias I'm not so worried about as they don't look so much different to the proximity of neighbouring connector pins. ok. awesome. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 23 05:43:26 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 05:43:26 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: <6C61086D-6BEA-47D1-B2FD-3F91F94B0591@gmail.com> References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <6C61086D-6BEA-47D1-B2FD-3F91F94B0591@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 4:26 AM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > 15mil clearance to HDMI nets and vias won't hurt anybody's feelings! :) > […] > >>> 3. The layer 2,3,4 ground keepout West edge moved with the East edge >>> of the layer 3 ground fill to the edge of the connector pads. >> >> oh wait... i haven't put in a keepout *at all* on layers 3 and 4. >> you think it would be best to punch the hole *right* down so that it's >> only layer 5 providing a GND plane for both sides? it makes sense, i >> just want to confirm. > > Yes, that is what I was asking for under the high-frequency differential > signals at the connector. If you have reservations about it, let me know. nope, sounds good to me. i Get It. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 23 05:56:03 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 05:56:03 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Standards Organization as a Potentially Universal Free/Libre Software Developement Sustenance Model In-Reply-To: References: <20170712103603.GA16243@pabbook> <2CA17EE0-79FC-4395-A6CC-68FB6FB5AEBE@mailbox.org> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Jean Flamelle wrote: > On 12/21/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> that shouldn't happen. you've created a login? let's ping phil. > Yu, and its worked before. ok. one for phil, definitely. btw http://rhombus-tech.net/recentchanges/ shows that there has been a successful edit > [Btw, does look much better with a monospace font and spaces instead > of tabs; Some one should patch ikiwiki to display source in a > monospaced font.] it does. on both chrome and firefox. some as-yet-unidentified factor involved here, i feel. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 23 10:55:53 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 10:55:53 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <6C61086D-6BEA-47D1-B2FD-3F91F94B0591@gmail.com> Message-ID: https://youtu.be/OO3qSBaKokM ok next one :) i updated the links, http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/a20/275_hdmi/ 6 layer screenshots this time main thing is, i thiiink... there's a way for EMI to escape through the holes in layer 5 (under ESD) on the east end, into the west end of the layer 4 hole (under connector), what do you think? also you can see, at points in the video (i'll go over it myself when doing changes), i have to adapt the shape on layer... 6 to match the (new, 15mil) clearance between HDMI tracks and GND, i'll do that... l. From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Sun Dec 24 22:29:03 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 15:29:03 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <6C61086D-6BEA-47D1-B2FD-3F91F94B0591@gmail.com> Message-ID: <98EDE830-70C2-44AB-8DF6-FDA4FDE82CBF@gmail.com> Thanks again for the pictures and the video. Concerning the keepouts under the connector: 1. At the north boundary I would pull the edge up a little further north away from the northwestern differential pair. 2. At the west boundary I see your point regarding layers 4 and 5. Looks like you have made a good solution. I suppose you could add 5mil additional overlap. How much overlap does it currently have? How much opening from the edge of the keepout on layer 4 to the edge of the closest connector pads? I would vote to keep the layer 5 holes under the layer 6 ESD pads for the same reason we added them to layer 2 for the ESD pads on layer 1. Some of the adjustments on layer 6 might be taken care of by modifying the net groups to create an "HDMI High-Frequency" group which contains only the differential pairs {HTX2P, HTX2N, HTX1P, HTX1N, HTX0P, HTX0N, HTXCP, HTXCN}, apply the 15mil conditional clearance rule to that group. Then see what issues remain. From lkcl at lkcl.net Mon Dec 25 12:52:08 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 12:52:08 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: <98EDE830-70C2-44AB-8DF6-FDA4FDE82CBF@gmail.com> References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <6C61086D-6BEA-47D1-B2FD-3F91F94B0591@gmail.com> <98EDE830-70C2-44AB-8DF6-FDA4FDE82CBF@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: > Thanks again for the pictures and the video. no problem > Concerning the keepouts under the connector: > 1. At the north boundary I would pull the edge up a little further north away from the northwestern differential pair. oh! ha, i just made it the opposite direction :) reason: HHPD acts (kinda) as a GND for that top (HTX2P) and when i did the flood-fill it looked really weird. i'm switching to a couple of different viewing styles (one of them is actually the gerbers, there's an "X-Ray" option. the top 2 VIAs right next to HTX2P are too far away, and the 15mil-to-GND-keepout condition makes things unbalanced. see proposed GREEN new via placements and YELLOW track to correct that. when i show X-ray-mode gerbers layers 1 & 2 i mark in yellow at top a proposed modification, look good? you can see to pin 4 there is that GND via, the shape of the hole gets really weird / sharp edges there. also i'm aware that the layer 2 and 5 bottom-most curved-shaped-keepout-holes are about 1 mil too far to the left, see yellow (SE corner) where i'll move them both over. > 2. At the west boundary I see your point regarding layers 4 and 5. > Looks like you have made a good solution. > I suppose you could add 5mil additional overlap. > How much overlap does it currently have? currently arouuund 9mil roughly. > How much opening from the edge of the keepout > on layer 4 to the edge of the closest connector pads? around 4mil. tracks are 5mil so can use that as a scale. > I would vote to keep the layer 5 holes under the layer 6 ESD pads > for the same reason we added them to layer 2 for the ESD pads on layer 1. yehyeh. > Some of the adjustments on layer 6 might be taken care of by > modifying the net groups to create an "HDMI High-Frequency" > group which contains only the differential pairs {HTX2P, HTX2N, HTX1P, > HTX1N, HTX0P, HTX0N, HTXCP, HTXCN}, apply the 15mil conditional > clearance rule to that group. that's what's already done :) oh, except to VIAs i kept it at 5mil, now i remember. 15 mil to landing pads, 15 mil to tracks, 5mil to VIAs i think this was because i didn't want the holes made by VIAs to be too large. what you think? make them 15mil too? l. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Untitled2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 64784 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 07:48:55 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 07:48:55 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <6C61086D-6BEA-47D1-B2FD-3F91F94B0591@gmail.com> <98EDE830-70C2-44AB-8DF6-FDA4FDE82CBF@gmail.com> Message-ID: oh - happy christmas everyone btw :) https://youtu.be/tiV2AXbuyyk should be available by the time this goes out, currently uploading. i'm using actual gerber files (gerbv) to illustrate, as it is slightly different and in some ways easier to visually interpret. i haven't used that up until now as it's an extra step in the process. richard if you need screenshots in order to properly illustrate particular changes (describing them in words i find isn't quite enough!) just ask, i can make them available. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 09:08:42 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 09:08:42 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC Message-ID: so, ahh i would say it's christmas come early but it really *is* christmas :) i've been speaking with madhu, the head of the shakti team, they're extremely busy with a tapeout deadline of 1st january 2018, so in about a month or so's time he will have more time to talk, and it will be possible to begin properly planning. unlike many people to whom i've pitched the idea of an entirely libre SoC, madhu instead responded, "ok sure, what would you like?". initially being rather confused by this positive response, i outlined this page http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/ and slowly began asking more questions. it turns out that the indian government has given him a mandate to create THE entire range of computing platforms. in speaking to him about why, well it was pretty obvious: if you were to have everyone in india buy a foreign imported smartphone - and that's just one market - it would LITERALLY bankrupt the country with the exodus of cash. so they have a law requiring that foreign countries, if they wish to sell product in india, that 70% of it must be manufactured locally. apple has apparently asked if they can work around this to get more foreign-made smartphones into india... they've been told unequivocably NO. the sheer scale of the opportunity has not only companies - you can guess who they are - trying to bribe him to shut down the entire programme, but also companies offering free tools and more. this means that with a ZERO financial outlay it is possible to get three (only three) designs through tapeout *AND* the MVP (multi-vendor programme) which will result in around 100 sample bare dies being made (entirely free), of which maybe 30% of those can be expected to actually result in a functioning chip. that's still 30 chips for a zero financial outlay where normally the cost would be around $5m, one each at at 20nm, 28nm and one more at 40nm. the only condition is: the entire SoC *must* be entirely libre. that's right down to the bedrock: not just the entire ASIC design but also the software stack running on it. you know the reasons why: "Intel Management Engine". it just so happens that the overlap between what we would like to see happen and what the shakti team has been set up to achieve happen to align near-100%. this is an incredible opportunity. there are four main tasks / details which need to be taken care of: * designing and specifying the SoC so that it is DESIRABLE in a specific target market or markets * finding the right team(s) of people with links to the free software community to target 3D, Video and so on. * finding a customer base large enough to warrant going to production * bridging finance (if that customer base isn't going to pay cash up-front). now, it turns out that *IF* the processor is designed SUCH THAT it is desirable for use in the indian schools market - either as laptops, netbooks, tablets or desktop machines (laptops would be better), THEN it is a near-automatic process of getting to market, orders of 10 million units are not a problem. note that *this is exactly what the EOMA68 Libre Laptop Housing is for*, and would be an immediate base on which to get demo units in front of people, very very quickly (just have to take care of making an EOMA68-RISCV64 Card). so, any ideas, input etc. welcomed. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 09:59:04 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 09:59:04 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing Message-ID: ok so the past couple of updates i sent out i mentioned that there's no longer sufficient funds in the current campaign to further pay accommodation or any other living expenses. thus it is *really important* that i find sources of funds, immediately. beyond that, i may have found something that's worth exploring that has the potential to fund pretty much absolutely everything that we want to achieve, if it is leveraged correctly. one of the options that i am exploring is bltclub. i happened to have 0.65 BTC available, the price of bitcoin happened to be rising such that it was worth around USD $5000 at the time, i happened to hear about bitclub from a friend, and my prior experience with bitcoin mining i'd already done the preliminary analysis so it was an extremely easy and fast decision. bitclub - a group of like-minded people who happen to share a common interest - mine three percent of the world's bitcoin. three percent. at today's market rate that's twenty four ***MILLION*** US Dollars being generated by this group, every month. that's a staggering amount of money which immediately made it worthwhile investigating. the members basically make their money in two ways: (a) mining (of which they receive A HUNDRED PERCENT of the bitcoin mined - unlike many other mining clubs which take say 10%) (b) multi-level marketing. this is by far and above the more profitable method and the fact that it exists is precisely why the club can provide 100% of the mined bitcoin to people who *only* wish... to mine bitcoin. if you have ever done bitcoin mining, you will know that it is an absolute pain in the neck, and you will also know that you cannot get the equipment now for love nor money. not even bribes will work because you still have to out-bid everyone else who's offering bribes as well. and once you GET the equipment, if it breaks you lose downtime... that's if you can actually get the person you bribed to honour the warranty. by using a *POOL* of people - buying in bulk - the "share" of the *POOL* is available to you. one piece of equipment fails, so what, that's amortised across thounsands of people. you also don't pay for electricity or cooling. or have fans whirring 24x7 in your house. now, i *already have* two other people signed up: i am a few points away from hitting the first MLM milestone which would result in me receiving TWO HUNDRED US DOLLARS A DAY in *addition* to the bitcoin mining which is coming online in the next 48 hours. i have two separate and distinct questions: (1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their equipment. (2) is there anyone who CAN put their own money into bitclub who would be interested to know more. if yes, and you already know about bitcoin mining and about MLM etc. the link is here http://bitclub.network/lkcl the goal basically is to leverage this to become financially independently wealthy, and use it to fund libre hardware and software. there's about maybe 3 to 5 years in which bitcoin - specifically GROUP mining NOT individual mining - is a viable way to do that. any questions feel free to ask. l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 10:25:03 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:25:03 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-12-27 10:59 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : Top note. You're writing like a TellSell ad. I get that you're exited and in need. But it's not boosting confidence. Also the worlds financial experts have a, perhaps healthy, fear of crypto currency's Although I think that is also based on lack of insight. It remains currency trading, which in itself is risky business. > > i have two separate and distinct questions: > > (1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into > buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the > next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their > equipment. You sign me/us up, I/We pay? > > (2) is there anyone who CAN put their own money into bitclub who would > be interested to know more. if yes, and you already know about > bitcoin mining and about MLM etc. the link is here > http://bitclub.network/lkcl I/We sign up and pay? > > the goal basically is to leverage this to become financially > independently wealthy, and use it to fund libre hardware and software. > there's about maybe 3 to 5 years in which bitcoin - specifically GROUP > mining NOT individual mining - is a viable way to do that. We pay a amount and you enhance that amount via bitcoin group mining, right? If so, Mine/Our input is one-time or reoccurring? >From what amount can I/We pitch in? How well guarded is the group? The biggest risk in these "markets" is that if they get hacked the coins vanish at near lightning speed. Kr, Mike From penyuanhsing at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 10:49:15 2017 From: penyuanhsing at gmail.com (Pen-Yuan Hsing) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 10:49:15 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This sounds like a great opportunity. But I share Mike's questions. Can you clarify what (1) and (2) mean and what's needed for us to pitch in? On 27/12/17 10:25, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-12-27 10:59 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > Top note. You're writing like a TellSell ad. I get that you're exited > and in need. But it's not boosting confidence. > > Also the worlds financial experts have a, perhaps healthy, fear of > crypto currency's > > Although I think that is also based on lack of insight. It remains > currency trading, which in itself is risky business. > >> >> i have two separate and distinct questions: >> >> (1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into >> buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the >> next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their >> equipment. > > You sign me/us up, I/We pay? > >> >> (2) is there anyone who CAN put their own money into bitclub who would >> be interested to know more. if yes, and you already know about >> bitcoin mining and about MLM etc. the link is here >> http://bitclub.network/lkcl > > I/We sign up and pay? > >> >> the goal basically is to leverage this to become financially >> independently wealthy, and use it to fund libre hardware and software. >> there's about maybe 3 to 5 years in which bitcoin - specifically GROUP >> mining NOT individual mining - is a viable way to do that. > > We pay a amount and you enhance that amount via bitcoin group mining, right? > > If so, Mine/Our input is one-time or reoccurring? > > From what amount can I/We pitch in? > > How well guarded is the group? The biggest risk in these "markets" is > that if they get hacked the coins vanish at near lightning speed. > > Kr, Mike From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 11:07:04 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:07:04 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 10:25 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-12-27 10:59 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > Top note. You're writing like a TellSell ad. it happens - it's almost unavoidable at the quotes top level quotes :) the key difference here is that the very "product" if you will of the MLM is *LITERALLY* being actually CREATED and can be put back in to buying more shares in the MLM which then make more bitcoin which then... round the loop for about the next 3-5 years. > Also the worlds financial experts have a, perhaps healthy, fear of > crypto currency's that's because they really, really don't understand it: all their experience is based on fiat currencies. and as crypto-currencies go up in value, fiat currencies correspondingly and naturally *go down*. this is something that everyone is forgetting, that, ultimately, the value of fiat currencies is going to be quite literally worthless. a good book to read which outlines this in an easy to read fashion is senator ron paul's book, "End the Fed". > Although I think that is also based on lack of insight. It remains > currency trading, which in itself is risky business. ah no. that's one of the crucial mistakes. i am *not* in the *slightest* bit interested in currency *trading*. it's risky, and requires a huge amount of study, time and expertise to get it right. i would in *no way* recommend to people to do *trading* of crypto-currencies. this is about mining, which is competely different, and i *have* studied that in depth (over the years). >> >> i have two separate and distinct questions: >> >> (1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into >> buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the >> next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their >> equipment. > > You sign me/us up, I/We pay? option (1) i pay. just not straight away, as i need to earn mining and commission to do it. i will prioritise people who have a direct link to some libre software or hardware project, past, present or future, prioritising further anyone who is specifically related to or can help with the immediate goals of EOMA68 and/or the Libre-RISCV64 project. >> >> (2) is there anyone who CAN put their own money into bitclub who would >> be interested to know more. if yes, and you already know about >> bitcoin mining and about MLM etc. the link is here >> http://bitclub.network/lkcl > > I/We sign up and pay? option (2) you pay, yes. >> >> the goal basically is to leverage this to become financially >> independently wealthy, and use it to fund libre hardware and software. >> there's about maybe 3 to 5 years in which bitcoin - specifically GROUP >> mining NOT individual mining - is a viable way to do that. > > We pay a amount from $0 upwards, yes. > and you enhance that amount via bitcoin group mining, right? if you have some relation to free software or libre hardware and have or can demonstrate some committment to that... yes. > If so, Mine/Our input is one-time or reoccurring? whatever you want to do, independently. each person is entirely sovereign and responsible for themselves. i would *like* - it would be nice - at some point for people to *also* start signing up *other people* and buying *their* initial equipment. the faster that is done, i.e. the quicker you can get more people under your own network, the higher the commissions. the numbers here are just insane. the top levels are something like USD $10,000 a *DAY*, actually probably far more than that. > From what amount can I/We pitch in? anything from $0 to $99 to $600, $1100, $1600 or $3600. > How well guarded is the group? they're pretty paranoid. they just had a THIRD PARTY service get hacked, just 10 days ago, their infrastructure detected the attack - which was against the developer platform not the main one - within under 15 minutes and they shut down the entire web front-end immediately. > The biggest risk in these "markets" is please understand: this is NOT a market. it's a mining operation. there is a massive, massive difference. > that if they get hacked the coins vanish at near lightning speed. this is not an "exchange", it is a *mining* operation. the system "outputs" mined bitcoin to a given address that YOU specify in your web console, every day. you are in complete control of what that is. and are individually responsible for ensuring that you keep the (local) wallet password etc. secure. on YOUR personal device(s). i'll have to train people on that (i'm recommending electrum as the ONLY way right now because your wallet is recoverable via a distributed peer-to-peer NON corporate controlled network) l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 11:11:14 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:11:14 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Pen-Yuan Hsing wrote: > This sounds like a great opportunity. But I share Mike's questions. Can you > clarify what (1) and (2) mean and what's needed for us to pitch in? hiya pen-yuan, ha, bit of cross-over, i just replied to mike. (2) you, as an independent individual, with your own money, sign up, pay the membership yourself, buy equipment yourself, under my "tree". over time if you happen not to put anyone under *your* "tree" i will drop people in it *for* you. you'll end up receiving commission "for free" so to speak (and so will i) (1) you don't pay anything AT ALL. you sign up, and *I* will pay your membership, *i* will buy your equipment. this can only happen OVER TIME (perhaps in 1, 2 or 3 months time), and i will ONLY do this if you are a software libre or hardware developer who is committed, long-term. l. From positron at gnu.org Wed Dec 27 11:23:59 2017 From: positron at gnu.org (Luca Saiu) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 12:23:59 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton's message of "Wed, 27 Dec 2017 09:59:04 +0000") References: Message-ID: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> On 2017-12-27 at 09:59, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > (1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into > buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the > next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their > equipment. Me. You may want to have a look at this: http://behindmlm.com/companies/bitclub-network-review-zeek-ponzi-veterans-at-it-again/ I have no doubts about your good faith but to put it bluntly the investment is morally very questionable, almost certainly illegal, and likely to result in financial loss for yourself and the project. It would be a shame to see the initiative crash because the funds got stuck in a Ponzi. Look at how many similar schemes, offering no proof of actual mining, exist right now. This is not going to end well. -- Luca Saiu * GNU epsilon: http://www.gnu.org/software/epsilon * My personal home page: http://ageinghacker.net I support everyone's freedom of mocking any opinion or belief, no matter how deeply held, with open disrespect and the same unrelented enthusiasm of a toddler who has just learned the word "poo". From positron at gnu.org Wed Dec 27 11:31:54 2017 From: positron at gnu.org (Luca Saiu) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 12:31:54 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: (mike's message of "Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:25:03 +0100") References: Message-ID: <87lghoiez9.fsf@gnu.org> On 2017-12-27 at 11:25, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > How well guarded is the group? The biggest risk in these "markets" is > that if they get hacked the coins vanish at near lightning speed. I respectfully disagree. The biggest risk is that those "programs" actually shuffle investors' funds under the false pretense of doing mining, then when the scheme inevitably collapses as recruiting slows down the organizers do a runner or provide excuses such as "we got hacked". This happens all the time. -- Luca Saiu * GNU epsilon: http://www.gnu.org/software/epsilon * My personal home page: http://ageinghacker.net I support everyone's freedom of mocking any opinion or belief, no matter how deeply held, with open disrespect and the same unrelented enthusiasm of a toddler who has just learned the word "poo". From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 11:37:54 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:37:54 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Luca Saiu wrote: > On 2017-12-27 at 09:59, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> (1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into >> buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the >> next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their >> equipment. > > Me. cool. gnu.org email address, good enough for me. if you sign up (don't pay membership), then privately email me the username you added i'll keep an eye on it over the next few weeks/months, and when i have available funds from the mining i'll pay your membership and progressively pay for some equipment as well. > You may want to have a look at this: > http://behindmlm.com/companies/bitclub-network-review-zeek-ponzi-veterans-at-it-again/ yep... seen these, and more. don't - personally - need to see any more :) however for anyone who wishes to convince themselves that they shouldn't participate, they need only look at these types of online sites in order to be "convinced". > I have no doubts about your good faith but to put it bluntly the > investment is morally very questionable, almost certainly illegal, and > likely to result in financial loss for yourself and the project. It > would be a shame to see the initiative crash because the funds got stuck > in a Ponzi. (1) i have (personally) done *my* due diligence, and am (deliberately) *ONLY* investing BTC (not actual cash) which i happened to have (from 5 years ago) plus some donations. i am risking no ACTUAL quotes money quotes. at all. (2) i have a friend whom i trust who put (actual) money in, i've known him for 10 years. his commissions are... large. and actually exist. (3) this is quite LITERALLY the opposite of a ponzi scheme. they are LITERALLY making the bitcoin that underpins the entire scheme. this is a completely unique approach which is actually extremely clever. > Look at how many similar schemes, offering no proof of actual mining, i know. this isn't one of them. https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats i've looked at e.g. gemini mining (whatever the hell they are called). they are DEFINITELY dodgy. no pool stats. no way to verify them. total secrecy.. this is completely different in just about every way possible. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 11:49:25 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:49:25 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <87lghoiez9.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87lghoiez9.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Luca Saiu wrote: > On 2017-12-27 at 11:25, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > >> How well guarded is the group? The biggest risk in these "markets" is >> that if they get hacked the coins vanish at near lightning speed. > > I respectfully disagree. The biggest risk is that those "programs" > actually shuffle investors' funds under the false pretense of doing > mining, then when the scheme inevitably collapses as recruiting slows > down the organizers do a runner or provide excuses such as "we got > hacked". This happens all the time. well, luckily i had 0.65 BTC that wasn't doing anything, and i was prepared to do the risk-benefit analysis and *personally* it came up "can't ignore this opportunity if it turns out to be good". they *did* actually get hacked... or... a third party service got hacked... and they're back online. i talked to my brother about this: he was scared witless by both the amounts of money involved and the thought of "losing" (it's a family trait i'm intent on stamping on, very hard). i explained to him that the pool stats, which you can see here: https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats basically provide an underpinning which is NOT forgeable (if they were forgeable then the entirety of bitcoin is forgeable and we're all in the doo-doo). look at the pool stats. then back-calculate 3% of total bitcoin mining revenue. i did the maths: you can check it yourself, it comes to twenty four MILLION dollars a month. TWENTY FOUR million a month! the organisers - and they're a disparate group, not even a *small* group so it becomes *even harder* to organise a quotes scam quotes - would have to be absolute FOOLS to walk away from that kind of money by trying to do something as stupid as SCAM everybody!!! remember: the mined bitcoin goes *out* of the network each day (except if people choose to use it to buy more equipment, automatically). to specifically answer the issue you raise, it might actually be possible to do an analysis, do some estimates based on numbers of people who would have joined, then work out if they had the money *to* actually create a "scam" of the type that you're suggesting. but... honestly, given that it's a large *group* of people, rather than a single person or even a small group, i don't think it's likely - at all - that they will *all* wish to be scammers. it only takes one person to "rat out" the entire group of [potential / hypothetical] conspirators. l. From lasich at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 12:07:32 2017 From: lasich at gmail.com (Hrvoje Lasic) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 13:07:32 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > that's because they really, really don't understand it: all their > experience is based on fiat currencies. and as crypto-currencies go > up in value, fiat currencies correspondingly and naturally *go down*. > this is something that everyone is forgetting, that, ultimately, the > value of fiat currencies is going to be quite literally worthless. > > a good book to read which outlines this in an easy to read fashion is > senator ron paul's book, "End the Fed". > I am afraid `going up` is problem at the moment. Currently you cant sell crypto to USD, there is lack of liquidity. Most probably there are some top holders of i.e. Bitocin and try to sell it to fiat as much as they can in this moment. it is classical ponzi scheme where few will get rich and minor investors will pay for it. You cant purchase things. For example go to shop and buy a car. Price fluctuate 10,20,30% daily, so even if you are benevolent toward idea you cant really hold goods for 6 months and be sure that you will at the end make some margin. Remember, trade (business) is not about speculation but making margins in predictable way. With fiat you can go in restaurant and buy cup of coffee. With cryptos not. There is no economy behind it, just good idea and hype. I have seen two projects based on cryptos in last two years, they are not coin speculation but real ideas that society could benefit,that are difficult to implement because lack of legislative, government want taxes, stakeholders resist it etc. Unless you see some real business and/or services based on blockchain there will be no real value of crypto-currencies. Yes, ti is good idea, but what is going on right now is not good at all and if balloon burst it could do more harm then good. From positron at gnu.org Wed Dec 27 12:19:39 2017 From: positron at gnu.org (Luca Saiu) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 13:19:39 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton's message of "Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:37:54 +0000") References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <87efngicro.fsf@gnu.org> On 2017-12-27 at 11:37, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Luca Saiu wrote: >> On 2017-12-27 at 09:59, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> >>> (1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into >>> buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the >>> next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their >>> equipment. >> >> Me. > > cool. gnu.org email address, good enough for me. if you sign up > (don't pay membership), then privately email me the username you added > i'll keep an eye on it over the next few weeks/months, and when i have > available funds from the mining i'll pay your membership and > progressively pay for some equipment as well. I answered "Me" when you asked who would NOT like their funds to be invested in bitclub. Sorry, I will not sign up, and please do not use my name in anything related to bitclub. >> You may want to have a look at this: >> http://behindmlm.com/companies/bitclub-network-review-zeek-ponzi-veterans-at-it-again/ > > yep... seen these, and more. don't - personally - need to see any > more :) however for anyone who wishes to convince themselves that > they shouldn't participate, they need only look at these types of > online sites in order to be "convinced". It's always difficult to prove a negative; what behindmlm tends to do is pointing out red flags, and argue that a suspect operation should not be trusted without strong positive evidences of legitimacy, even more in a situation where scams abound. When in doubt we should *not* believe. > (2) i have a friend whom i trust who put (actual) money in, i've > known him for 10 years. his commissions are... large. and actually > exist. That is not a good way to tell whether the profit generates comes from a legitimate source or from other investors. Ponzi and pyramid schemes do pay, particularly to whoever got in at the beginning -- but only until they inevitably collapse. The collapse also results in legal liabilities for the net winners, which may be forced to return what they illegally gained. The details of how clawback works very by country, but if you are in the UK you should definitely be concerned. > (3) this is quite LITERALLY the opposite of a ponzi scheme. they are > LITERALLY making the bitcoin that underpins the entire scheme. this > is a completely unique approach which is actually extremely clever. It is not unique, and there is no hard proof that the money being generated actually comes from mining. In order to provide some evidence to be used against us skeptics some scams do perform a token amount of mining, insufficient to keep the scheme afloat but trackable to the pool. I am not informed enough to judge the theoretical sustainability of collective mining, at the current difficulty, with MLM commissions on top; some people say it's impossible. I don't know, but know that many programs with a similar pretense were scams and have already collapsed. In such a situation I would require very strong evidence of legitimacy, and this evidence is just not there. This last point by itself is not a proof that bitclub is not a honest operation (in actuality, we can't know), but some of the people involved in bitclub also have a history of being involved in Ponzis, as pointed out in the behindmlm article. -- Luca Saiu * GNU epsilon: http://www.gnu.org/software/epsilon * My personal home page: http://ageinghacker.net I support everyone's freedom of mocking any opinion or belief, no matter how deeply held, with open disrespect and the same unrelented enthusiasm of a toddler who has just learned the word "poo". From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 12:24:55 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 12:24:55 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Hrvoje Lasic wrote: >> >> that's because they really, really don't understand it: all their >> experience is based on fiat currencies. and as crypto-currencies go >> up in value, fiat currencies correspondingly and naturally *go down*. >> this is something that everyone is forgetting, that, ultimately, the >> value of fiat currencies is going to be quite literally worthless. >> >> a good book to read which outlines this in an easy to read fashion is >> senator ron paul's book, "End the Fed". >> > > I am afraid `going up` is problem at the moment. if we were talking about *trading* bitcoin i would be concerned. i am not in the slightest bit interested in *trading* of bitcoin. at all. it's an extremely risky thing to do, and it requires an extremely sound knowledge of trading, which you can spend a long, long time studying. i simply don't have time for that. > Currently you cant sell crypto to USD, there is lack of liquidity. Most > probably there are some top holders of i.e. Bitocin and try to sell it to > fiat as much as they can in this moment. it is classical ponzi scheme where > few will get rich and minor investors will pay for it. > > You cant purchase things. For example go to shop and buy a car. Price > fluctuate 10,20,30% daily, so even if you are benevolent toward idea you > cant really hold goods for 6 months and be sure that you will at the end > make some margin. Remember, trade (business) is not about speculation but > making margins in predictable way. With fiat you can go in restaurant and > buy cup of coffee. With cryptos not. you've not been to Keene, NH, have you? :) or to PorcFest. i bought a tornado potato 2 years ago, my friend paid in BTC for me. zapped the QR code on the window :) thinkpenguin have been accepting bitcoin as payment for years, now. chris, the CEO, actually now pays all his home utility bills *and* his car insurance... in bitcoin. it turns out that on average, sometimes he loses 10% on BTC fluctuation, sometimes he gains 10%. to support the *idea* - the freedom of trade - he accepts that fluctuation graciously, as does anyone else who trades in real-world items using bitcoin as the currency it actually is. the fluctuation is actually down to the fact that not *everyone* is trading in bitcoin. think of it like this: if you were buying a potato from a farmer and paying him in USD, would you go OH MY GOD, THE YUEN HAS FLUCTUATED THIRTY PERCENT, PANIC PANIC PANIC!!! of course not. so *when* the hypothetical car you mention has all of the sales employees paid in a (steady) bitcoin rate, when the *parts* of the car are bought and paid for in a (steady) amount of bitcoin, the price of the car *can* have a fixed amount (in bitcoin). but it doesn't work that way, does it? so what do people do? well, they either put up with the fluctuation, or they "pin" the amount that you pay to within 10 minutes. you must make the transfer within 10 minutes or the rate is recalculated. later on it will be possible - JUST LIKE EXISTING CURRENCIES - to go to a broker who will GUARANTEE you a fixed exchange rate. two futures trading markets have just been set up by large established companies (there were plenty already), which will make that underpinning easier to do. ... but all of this is completely a red herring. >There is no economy behind it, this is simply not true. it may be the case that you've never *encountered* anyone who has paid or been paid for anything in bitcoin. l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 12:33:25 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 13:33:25 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-12-27 12:07 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 10:25 AM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: >> 2017-12-27 10:59 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> Although I think that is also based on lack of insight. It remains >> currency trading, which in itself is risky business. > > ah no. that's one of the crucial mistakes. i am *not* in the > *slightest* bit interested in currency *trading*. it's risky, and > requires a huge amount of study, time and expertise to get it right. > i would in *no way* recommend to people to do *trading* of > crypto-currencies. > > this is about mining, which is competely different, and i *have* > studied that in depth (over the years). Yes your mining currency. Just like gold etc. But you're putting in dollars/euro's/etc. When your buying stuf you'll either find someone willing to accept your currency, bitcoin, or trade you currency for an acceptable one: dollars. So dollars->bitcoins->dollars. So currency trading you do. Just not directly. The amounts of bitcoins vs. tradition currency fluctuates on demand, availability and madness. I consider "raw material" a form of currency as well. Weather you're mining/cultivation minerals, oil, plants or animals. Currency is just a means to trade with convenience. Usually done with "precious" goods or contracts. Euro's/Dollars/etc are a form of contracts as well. We agree that a dollar is a notation of worth. When more dollars are made (printed/stamped/booked) it's worth declines. But if the're more stuf to consider worth, the worth of dollar inclines. hmm I'm derailing from the topic here sorry ;-) >>> >>> (1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into >>> buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the >>> next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their >>> equipment. >> >> You sign me/us up, I/We pay? > > option (1) i pay. just not straight away, as i need to earn mining > and commission to do it. i will prioritise people who have a direct > link to some libre software or hardware project, past, present or > future, prioritising further anyone who is specifically related to or > can help with the immediate goals of EOMA68 and/or the Libre-RISCV64 > project. Ah for every signee you earn commission, a slightly bigger share in the mined goods. I don't understand why you would put in money for someone else for just the commission. > >>> >>> (2) is there anyone who CAN put their own money into bitclub who would >>> be interested to know more. if yes, and you already know about >>> bitcoin mining and about MLM etc. the link is here >>> http://bitclub.network/lkcl >> >> I/We sign up and pay? > > option (2) you pay, yes. And you get a commission. And if I sign someone else up we both get commission. Hmm pyramids. The last one's to join get's the least. Don't know If I like that approach. But if it helps you. >> How well guarded is the group? > > they're pretty paranoid. they just had a THIRD PARTY service get > hacked, just 10 days ago, their infrastructure detected the attack - > which was against the developer platform not the main one - within > under 15 minutes and they shut down the entire web front-end > immediately. Sane approach. > > >> The biggest risk in these "markets" is market/exchange/operation/cooperation/etc. > > please understand: this is NOT a market. it's a mining operation. > there is a massive, massive difference. Understood > > >> that if they get hacked the coins vanish at near lightning speed. > > this is not an "exchange", it is a *mining* operation. the system > "outputs" mined bitcoin to a given address that YOU specify in your > web console, every day. you are in complete control of what that is. > and are individually responsible for ensuring that you keep the > (local) wallet password etc. secure. on YOUR personal device(s). > > i'll have to train people on that (i'm recommending electrum as the > ONLY way right now because your wallet is recoverable via a > distributed peer-to-peer NON corporate controlled network) Thank you, that's reassuring. So basically you're buying in processing and infrastructure time, to mine personally. And for every signee, who buys time, you bring you get a bit more time on the operation. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 12:35:27 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 12:35:27 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <87efngicro.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87efngicro.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Luca Saiu wrote: > On 2017-12-27 at 11:37, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Luca Saiu wrote: >>> On 2017-12-27 at 09:59, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >>> >>>> (1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into >>>> buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the >>>> next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their >>>> equipment. >>> >>> Me. >> >> cool. gnu.org email address, good enough for me. if you sign up >> (don't pay membership), then privately email me the username you added >> i'll keep an eye on it over the next few weeks/months, and when i have >> available funds from the mining i'll pay your membership and >> progressively pay for some equipment as well. > > I answered "Me" when you asked who would NOT like their funds to be > invested in bitclub. oh, sorry. ah, i know what happened: you read only the *first* part of the sentence, where it was actually a *compound* sentence. > Sorry, I will not sign up, and please do not use my name in anything > related to bitclub. of course not! > It is not unique, and there is no hard proof that the money being > generated actually comes from mining. it's a legitimate concern, and one that can't really be answered [not without direct access to their database, which would be a massive privacy violation and security violation]. we could theoretically make some guesses and calculations on exactly how much money people in the network will be receiving vs the amount of money that is going "in", and see if the "scam" concept stacks up so to speak. if the amount of BTC going out is GREATER than the BTC coming in, then, clearly and logically, that would be unsustainable, meaning that they would HAVE to get some extra BTC from somewhere.... ... and the most likely place that they would be getting that extra BTC would be.... oh.... say... a massive pool of mining equipment distributed world-wide in different geographical locations that is, in total, generating 3% of the world's bitcoin according to globally unforgeable statistics. the fact that the pool exists is one of the most compelling arguments - even without having access to the [private] statistics. *why* would they be mining 3% of the world's total bitcoin being generated right now... and yet *still operate a ponzi scheme*??? it just does not make any sense... yeah? l. From lasich at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 12:42:43 2017 From: lasich at gmail.com (Hrvoje Lasic) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 13:42:43 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 December 2017 at 13:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Hrvoje Lasic wrote: > >> > >> that's because they really, really don't understand it: all their > >> experience is based on fiat currencies. and as crypto-currencies go > >> up in value, fiat currencies correspondingly and naturally *go down*. > >> this is something that everyone is forgetting, that, ultimately, the > >> value of fiat currencies is going to be quite literally worthless. > >> > >> a good book to read which outlines this in an easy to read fashion is > >> senator ron paul's book, "End the Fed". > >> > > > > I am afraid `going up` is problem at the moment. > > if we were talking about *trading* bitcoin i would be concerned. i > am not in the slightest bit interested in *trading* of bitcoin. at > all. it's an extremely risky thing to do, and it requires an > extremely sound knowledge of trading, which you can spend a long, long > time studying. i simply don't have time for that. > > > > Currently you cant sell crypto to USD, there is lack of liquidity. Most > > probably there are some top holders of i.e. Bitocin and try to sell it to > > fiat as much as they can in this moment. it is classical ponzi scheme > where > > few will get rich and minor investors will pay for it. > > > > You cant purchase things. For example go to shop and buy a car. Price > > fluctuate 10,20,30% daily, so even if you are benevolent toward idea you > > cant really hold goods for 6 months and be sure that you will at the end > > make some margin. Remember, trade (business) is not about speculation but > > making margins in predictable way. With fiat you can go in restaurant and > > buy cup of coffee. With cryptos not. > > you've not been to Keene, NH, have you? :) or to PorcFest. i bought > a tornado potato 2 years ago, my friend paid in BTC for me. zapped > the QR code on the window :) > > > Great, you bought something two years ago. And in fact, two years ago the idea in my eyes has been better then it is now as you had some remotely predictable value, it has been used by criminals (that's business too). this is exactly reason why price si inflated right now. > it turns out that on average, sometimes he loses 10% on BTC > fluctuation, sometimes he gains 10%. to support the *idea* - the > freedom of trade - he accepts that fluctuation graciously, as does > anyone else who trades in real-world items using bitcoin as the > currency it actually is. Ok, I do a lot fo trade for living from 2001 and currently have more then 100 suppliers in China. I cant afford 10% fluctuations. And I am pretty sure nobody can unless you trade (usually illegal) stuff with huge margins. > > >There is no economy behind it, > > this is simply not true. it may be the case that you've never > *encountered* anyone who has paid or been paid for anything in > bitcoin. > > l. > Ok, For example we know that German economy GDB is something more then 3 trillion EURO. Do you have any idea what is economy behind i.e. Bitcoin worth. Not this pumping up prices, but economy? I really like idea of blockchain but what is going on right now is madness, everyone who even dare to point things that do not looks good is labelled. From mike.valk at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 12:44:01 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 13:44:01 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87efngicro.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: 2017-12-27 13:35 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Luca Saiu wrote: >> On 2017-12-27 at 11:37, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> It is not unique, and there is no hard proof that the money being >> generated actually comes from mining. > > it's a legitimate concern, and one that can't really be answered [not > without direct access to their database, which would be a massive > privacy violation and security violation]. we could theoretically > make some guesses and calculations on exactly how much money people in > the network will be receiving vs the amount of money that is going > "in", and see if the "scam" concept stacks up so to speak. if the > amount of BTC going out is GREATER than the BTC coming in, then, > clearly and logically, that would be unsustainable, meaning that they > would HAVE to get some extra BTC from somewhere.... > I guess efficiency number are needed here. How much bitcoin is being mined/generated per input (dollar/euro's/joules) That's the same as for any mining operation. No need to watch how the mining is done just is the cost of the operation lower than the the yield. That's why a lot of IRL miners work under such poor circumstances. So where to find such numbers? From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 12:55:09 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 12:55:09 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:33 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > Yes your mining currency. Just like gold etc. > > But you're putting in dollars/euro's/etc. they only accept bitcoin. that bitcoin is used to buy equipment... that mines... bitcoin. they pay out... only in bitcoin. [actually they now have GPU kit which can mine other currencies but i'm personally not interested in that] > When your buying stuf you'll > either find someone willing to accept your currency, bitcoin, or trade > you currency for an acceptable one: dollars. yehyeh. thinking further down the line, this is goingt to be... interesting. they did actually have a VISA card for a while, it was so popular it sold out immediately. they're planning to get some more. > We agree that a dollar is a notation of worth. When more dollars are > made (printed/stamped/booked) it's worth declines. *sigh* yes this is the crux of the message in senator ron paul's book, "End the Fed". > hmm I'm derailing from the topic here sorry ;-) :) >>>> >>>> (1) is there anyone who does NOT wish to put their own money into >>>> buying bitclub shares who would like ME to sign them up, and, over the >>>> next few weeks and months, PAY their membership AND pay for their >>>> equipment. >>> >>> You sign me/us up, I/We pay? >> >> option (1) i pay. just not straight away, as i need to earn mining >> and commission to do it. i will prioritise people who have a direct >> link to some libre software or hardware project, past, present or >> future, prioritising further anyone who is specifically related to or >> can help with the immediate goals of EOMA68 and/or the Libre-RISCV64 >> project. > > Ah for every signee you earn commission, a slightly bigger share in > the mined goods. yeeees :) > I don't understand why you would put in money for someone else for > just the commission. because it's a hell of a lot, man. jaezuss, i mean, just the one more sign-up for a full share of mining equipment i get six THOUSAND dollars a DAY. that could pay EVERYTHING i need to keep this project going, right there! beyond that, i can see the potential here, to not just pay for my immediate financial needs and to cover the EOMA68 project, but collectively as a group to fund - independently - things like the mask charges for a libre RISC-V SoC. (if we even had to do that... it might not be necessary to even do _that_). certainly it is within the realm of possibility to fund a team of libre engineers to create the software needed *for* that libre RISC-V SoC. i would also be able to expand out to start the EOMA50 project (get a smartphone reference design done) and so on. >> >>>> >>>> (2) is there anyone who CAN put their own money into bitclub who would >>>> be interested to know more. if yes, and you already know about >>>> bitcoin mining and about MLM etc. the link is here >>>> http://bitclub.network/lkcl >>> >>> I/We sign up and pay? >> >> option (2) you pay, yes. > > And you get a commission. yyyup. > And if I sign someone else up we both get > commission. Hmm pyramids. The last one's to join get's the least. the last one(s) have to wait 30 days for their equipment to be bought, installed and commissioned. actually anyone buying a mining share has to wait 30 days for it to be commissioned. 6 months ago it was only 10 days but that was before a MASSIVE demand for equipment went sky-high and the lead time on equipment went... over 30 days. > Don't know If I like that approach. they have to make some money somehow. the 30 day "lag" allows them to mine sooome BTC which funds the operation. > But if it helps you. ... helps me to help get the goal achieved. if someone else can think of a better way, with as much potential, i'd love to hear it, do a proper analysis, and go 100% at that instead. >> i'll have to train people on that (i'm recommending electrum as the >> ONLY way right now because your wallet is recoverable via a >> distributed peer-to-peer NON corporate controlled network) > > Thank you, that's reassuring. > > So basically you're buying in processing and infrastructure time, to > mine personally. yes. they operate most of the equipment - which *you* actually genuinely own (if you want "out" they will do some calculations, make you an offer for NNN's worth of your share of the equipment, and you're out. they also *won't* let you join again except under case-by-case circumstances. it's clearly a bloody nuisance to pull equipment out of the rack). > And for every signee, who buys time, you bring you > get a bit more time on the operation. .... not time, *equipment*. or, more specifically, a *share* of a very very large world-wide pool of equipment. if you recall, i did actually buy some bitcoin mining equipment, five years ago. i think i mentioned it on here, at the time. it was a f*****g nightmare. i ordered 3 bits of kit. one of them the PSU didn't work, and one of the others went BANG within about 2-3 minutes. so i was down by 2/3s and it was TWO MONTHS to go through the RMA process, all the time watching the difficulty level go up, and up, and up, because EVERYONE ELSE WAS RUNNING THEIR EQUIPMENT NOW. it was right at the time when the first ASICs came out. this taught me a hard lesson: under no circumstances buy and operate your own equipment. one piece fails and you're screwed. the noise is intolerable. the heat - basically having an oven operating in your living room. the cost of electricity is insane. i don't know if you _like_ the idea of a 1200 watt electrical appliance running 24/7 in your house, with the inherent risk of a fire, but i certainly didn't. particularly as *TWO* out of three of the bits of kit that i'd bought DID actually go wrong. so this is why i'm happy to buy *shares* in equipment that is run off-site (most of it is in Rekyavik, Iceland), where electricity is cheap and cooling is free. and if it goes "bang" it doesn't cause my house to catch fire. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 12:59:56 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 12:59:56 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87efngicro.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:44 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > I guess efficiency number are needed here. How much bitcoin is being > mined/generated per input (dollar/euro's/joules) they're connected to the national grid in Iceland (they don't run everything there, for security reasons) but it's a good percentage. cooling is free (obviously), and they're actually going to be sinking their own geo-thermal turbines.... on-site. electricity is *already* cheap in iceland... so the cost of electricity can be assumed to be negligeable or zero. > That's the same as for any mining operation. No need to watch how the > mining is done just is the cost of the operation lower than the the > yield. > > That's why a lot of IRL miners work under such poor circumstances. > > So where to find such numbers? the pool stats give you the all-important number. there are two bits of information that are really needed, to make a proper assessment: (1) how many people sign up per month (2) how many people are *already* signed up. i have access to the MLM structure (it's complicated, and very large), it should be possible to make some reasonable estimates / behavioural guesswork.... but it would *need* those two numbers. i do know that they're starting to go mainstream (as in, a LOT of people are hearing about them). l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 13:15:53 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 13:15:53 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87efngicro.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: btw, for those people still thinking this is a "ponzi" scheme... or that it's a MLM that will collapse under its own weight... bitclub *do* actually recognise - and anyone else who knows about bitcoin knows this - that there's only probably about 3-5 years left where bitcoin mining will make any sense. it's down to the fact that the mining reward halves every 18 months. right now it's a 12.5 BTC reward. in about a years' time it'll be 6.25. 18 months from then it'll be 3.125 and that means that, in one years time, whatever the amount of BTC/USD is earned, that LITERALLY halves LITERALLY overnight. 24 million USD equivalent per month for the whole pool suddenly becomes 12.5 million USD equivalent. EVERYONE KNOWS this... the people who've done their proper due diligence at least.... IN ADVANCE. so yes. in about... 3 to 5 years this entire operation is quite likely to shut down. l. From positron at gnu.org Wed Dec 27 13:32:00 2017 From: positron at gnu.org (Luca Saiu) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 14:32:00 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton's message of "Wed, 27 Dec 2017 12:35:27 +0000") References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87efngicro.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <878tdoi9f3.fsf@gnu.org> On 2017-12-27 at 12:35, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > if the amount of BTC going out is GREATER than the BTC coming in, > then, clearly and logically, that would be unsustainable, meaning that > they would HAVE to get some extra BTC from somewhere.... Correct, but that's a very big "if". I don't believe the hypothesis. > ... and the most likely place that they would be getting that extra > BTC would be.... oh.... say... a massive pool of mining equipment > distributed world-wide in different geographical locations that is Again correct, as long as the hypothesis above (the amount coming in being less than the amount going out) holds. Ockham says that borrowing from Peter to pay Paul is even easier; they can pocket some amount, distribute some more thru MLM commissions, and encourage investors not to cash out for as long as possible, hoping that new funds keep coming. Some comparatively insignificant mining on top of that will give a sense of legitimacy to new investors, keeping the scheme alive longer. I've given what I believe is fair warning; if it turns out I'm wrong, which I unfortunately consider unlikely, that's better for everybody. You say that the EOMA68 quotes are not at risk; okay, if the project itself in not in jeopardy then I can be less nervous. This will be my last messages on this topic for the time being (if bitclub collapses soon I can't guarantee I won't succumb to the temptation of a "told you so" mail). However, Luke, I do appreciate the actual technical work you are doing. -- Luca Saiu * GNU epsilon: http://www.gnu.org/software/epsilon * My personal home page: http://ageinghacker.net I support everyone's freedom of mocking any opinion or belief, no matter how deeply held, with open disrespect and the same unrelented enthusiasm of a toddler who has just learned the word "poo". From positron at gnu.org Wed Dec 27 13:36:26 2017 From: positron at gnu.org (Luca Saiu) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 14:36:26 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton's message of "Wed, 27 Dec 2017 13:15:53 +0000") References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87efngicro.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <874loci97p.fsf@gnu.org> On 2017-12-27 at 13:15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > btw, for those people still thinking this is a "ponzi" scheme... or > that it's a MLM that will collapse under its own weight... bitclub > *do* actually recognise - and anyone else who knows about bitcoin > knows this - that there's only probably about 3-5 years left where > bitcoin mining will make any sense. Mining will stop being profitable at some point. True, but unrelated to the possibility of current mining being just pretend. And I'm shutting up for real now. -- Luca Saiu * GNU epsilon: http://www.gnu.org/software/epsilon * My personal home page: http://ageinghacker.net I support everyone's freedom of mocking any opinion or belief, no matter how deeply held, with open disrespect and the same unrelented enthusiasm of a toddler who has just learned the word "poo". From amacater at galactic.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 27 14:25:36 2017 From: amacater at galactic.demon.co.uk (Andrew M.A. Cater) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 14:25:36 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171227142536.2dkp3dy26bywquyj@galactic.demon.co.uk> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 09:08:42AM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > so, ahh i would say it's christmas come early but it really *is* christmas :) > > i've been speaking with madhu, the head of the shakti team, they're > extremely busy with a tapeout deadline of 1st january 2018, so in > about a month or so's time he will have more time to talk, and it will > be possible to begin properly planning. > > unlike many people to whom i've pitched the idea of an entirely libre > SoC, madhu instead responded, "ok sure, what would you like?". > initially being rather confused by this positive response, i outlined > this page http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/ and slowly > began asking more questions. > > it turns out that the indian government has given him a mandate to > create THE entire range of computing platforms. in speaking to him > about why, well it was pretty obvious: if you were to have everyone in > india buy a foreign imported smartphone - and that's just one market - > it would LITERALLY bankrupt the country with the exodus of cash. so > they have a law requiring that foreign countries, if they wish to sell > product in india, that 70% of it must be manufactured locally. apple > has apparently asked if they can work around this to get more > foreign-made smartphones into india... they've been told unequivocably > NO. > > the sheer scale of the opportunity has not only companies - you can > guess who they are - trying to bribe him to shut down the entire > programme, but also companies offering free tools and more. this > means that with a ZERO financial outlay it is possible to get three > (only three) designs through tapeout *AND* the MVP (multi-vendor > programme) which will result in around 100 sample bare dies being made > (entirely free), of which maybe 30% of those can be expected to > actually result in a functioning chip. that's still 30 chips for a > zero financial outlay where normally the cost would be around $5m, one > each at at 20nm, 28nm and one more at 40nm. > > the only condition is: the entire SoC *must* be entirely libre. > that's right down to the bedrock: not just the entire ASIC design but > also the software stack running on it. you know the reasons why: > "Intel Management Engine". > > it just so happens that the overlap between what we would like to see > happen and what the shakti team has been set up to achieve happen to > align near-100%. > > this is an incredible opportunity. > > there are four main tasks / details which need to be taken care of: > > * designing and specifying the SoC so that it is DESIRABLE in a > specific target market or markets > * finding the right team(s) of people with links to the free software > community to target 3D, Video and so on. > * finding a customer base large enough to warrant going to production > * bridging finance (if that customer base isn't going to pay cash up-front). > > now, it turns out that *IF* the processor is designed SUCH THAT it is > desirable for use in the indian schools market - either as laptops, > netbooks, tablets or desktop machines (laptops would be better), THEN > it is a near-automatic process of getting to market, orders of 10 > million units are not a problem. > > note that *this is exactly what the EOMA68 Libre Laptop Housing is > for*, and would be an immediate base on which to get demo units in > front of people, very very quickly (just have to take care of making > an EOMA68-RISCV64 Card). > > so, any ideas, input etc. welcomed. > Talk to Debian for the software, obvs :) They have most things packaged somwehere and ties to Debian Edu/Skolelinux. The problem, if problem it is, is that you need a new port to do this well and that means good emulators and, eventually, fast build hardware. RISCv64 also needs to be well supported by the Linux kernel, so you probably need to make sure that there's an easy way to build the Linux kernel (GCC build chain and GNU tools ... ) Andy C. > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 15:36:32 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 15:36:32 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC In-Reply-To: <20171227142536.2dkp3dy26bywquyj@galactic.demon.co.uk> References: <20171227142536.2dkp3dy26bywquyj@galactic.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 2:25 PM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 09:08:42AM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> so, any ideas, input etc. welcomed. >> > > Talk to Debian for the software, obvs :) yes - on it :) debian-riscv. there's also fedora-riscv. > They have most things packaged > somwehere and ties to Debian Edu/Skolelinux. The problem, if problem it > is, is that you need a new port to do this well and that means good > emulators and, eventually, fast build hardware. yehyeh. right now they're running under qemu, which is not the way you're supposed to do it, but they at least have a base suite of packages compiled up, the bootstrapping's been done. > RISCv64 also needs to be well supported by the Linux kernel, so you > probably need to make sure that there's an easy way to build the Linux > kernel (GCC build chain and GNU tools ... ) yehyeh, the riscv-kernel has been up and running for a long time, now, the most important thing is the acceptance of the riscv-gcc patches (done recently) and also libc6 and binutils patches. also there's an outstanding bugreport for debian which "finalises" the strings (architecture names) and the port names and also they *must* have the support of the *exact* same versions of binutils and gcc which are utilised *right* across the board for every other debian architecture. this is absolutely critical for stability, otherwise you can't guarantee that packages will be properly compiled and dynamically link together. so it's a chain that's slowly propagating and sorting itself out... and being handled. what i meant by software is things like, for example... if we get a 3D engine up and running (however it's done), that *will* need mesa3d support to be made for it. and/or vulkan, and/or whatever the flavour-of-the-month for accelerated graphics happens to be. likewise if we add a VPU, someone has to do the.... whatever-it-is, ffmpeg, gstreamer, blah-blah porting and so on. there are lots of little details that need someone to work on *AT THE SAME TIME* as the actual hardware *ITSELF* is being developed (!!). it's quite an interesting and tricky self-bootstrapping problem that will require quite a bit of thought and careful planning. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 16:00:08 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 16:00:08 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <878tdoi9f3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87efngicro.fsf@gnu.org> <878tdoi9f3.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:32 PM, Luca Saiu wrote: > On 2017-12-27 at 12:35, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> if the amount of BTC going out is GREATER than the BTC coming in, >> then, clearly and logically, that would be unsustainable, meaning that >> they would HAVE to get some extra BTC from somewhere.... > > Correct, but that's a very big "if". I don't believe the hypothesis. ... if there *existed* a way to find out the numbers that would disprove the hypothesis (do a model of their business and see if it can be proved that there's no way they could be financially viable) i would do the model. ultimately... i did the risk / value proposition a different way: only put in those "funds"... not funds at all they're actually just "numbers".... which were "free". i.e. i did NOT go out and register on a bitcoin exchange, i did NOT register a bank account with them, i did NOT give anyone cash in exchange for bitcoin. i happened to have 0.4 BTC left over from some mining i did 5 years ago, and someone donated me 0.25 BTC a few months ago. > I've given what I believe is fair warning; if it turns out I'm wrong, > which I unfortunately consider unlikely, that's better for everybody. yehyeh. it's why i didn't take *actual* cash, buy bitcoin, *then* put it into bitclub mining shares. i've never actually registered on any of these exchanges so couldn't get money in or out to USD or any fiat currency even if i wanted to. i only used BTC which i happened to already have. > You say that the EOMA68 quotes are not at risk; well, if i don't find *some* way to pay for food and the apartment here, that is much more of a risk to the EOMA68 project than anything else possibly could be, particularly as i am in a foreign country on a tourist visa and they don't take too kindly to foreigners not being able to pay for their own flight the hell out of the country. i have enough cash (from a contract i did 3 months ago) to pay for accommodation for about 2-3 months. if i have to pay the flight to FOSDEM out of that, then that cash reserve drops to around 1-2 months. that is far more of a quotes risk quotes to the EOMA68 project than me taking 0.65 of a BTC which i happened not to be using, where BTC happened to rise enough to the point where it was worthwhile throwing it at bitclub. so i have not quotes risked quotes anything. i have not spent actual cash. and - this is REALLY IMPORTANT TO GET ACROSS - i have AT NO TIME UTILISED ANY FUNDS FROM THE CROWDFUNDING. i am going to emphasise this and say it in capitals only the once i VERY VERY DELIBERATELY ONLY UTILISED THE BTC THAT I HAD MINED OVER FIVE YEARS AGO (and 0.25 BTC which someone donated me about... 3-4 months ago). if you recall, right at the beginning of the crowdfunding success, one of my first posts was about getting the money the fuck out of the US due to possible currency destabilisation, given that the U.S. President's total lack of understanding of his new position destablised BOTH the Mexican currency AND the Canadian one. if he'd tried the same thing with the Yuan it could have wiped 10 to 15% off the project right there. now, luckily that didn't happen but i pointed out that there was NO WAY that i could gamble with the money that had been entrusted to me, and pushed for USD $60,000 to be transferred immediately... right before Chinese New Year. we JUST managed to get the money out the country in time. > okay, if the project > itself in not in jeopardy then I can be less nervous. if i don't find some way to pay for rent and food and the FOSDEM flight then the EOMA68 project basically will be the least of my concerns. i did put the message out on the last couple of updates. i put it in a positive fashion, i received some very welcome suggestions (and need to modify the rhombus-tech website to add a librepay and also a BTC donation link).... ... nothing concrete actually received yet though. so this, luca, is one primary reason *why* i am telling people about bitclub, because it represents a very big jump in income. six thousand dollars a month, tax free. that's more than i've ever earned at even the highest-paying of any of the companies i've ever worked at. > This will be my > last messages on this topic for the time being (if bitclub collapses > soon I can't guarantee I won't succumb to the temptation of a "told you > so" mail). :) > However, Luke, I do appreciate the actual technical work you are doing. thanks luca. l. From onpon4 at riseup.net Wed Dec 27 16:26:36 2017 From: onpon4 at riseup.net (Julie Marchant) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:26:36 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <780a0539-791c-f105-cd68-b04fc6b896be@riseup.net> Sent this from the wrong email address. Please excuse the duplicate email. Luke: if the other email is in the moderation queue, feel free to just reject it, since it doesn't add anything beyond this version. On 2017年12月27日 06:23, Luca Saiu wrote: > You may want to have a look at this: > http://behindmlm.com/companies/bitclub-network-review-zeek-ponzi-veterans-at-it-again/ > > I have no doubts about your good faith but to put it bluntly the > investment is morally very questionable, almost certainly illegal, and > likely to result in financial loss for yourself and the project. It > would be a shame to see the initiative crash because the funds got stuck > in a Ponzi. > > Look at how many similar schemes, offering no proof of actual mining, > exist right now. This is not going to end well. I have to second this opinion. Luke, doing *nothing* and losing the funds honorably would easily be preferable over trying to do *any* kind of "multi-level marketing", which is almost certainly going to be a financial loss to you. The idea of "multi-level marketing" can be explained in a chart. The "0"s represent people buying into it, with the one at the top being the one who started it. Tell me, what does this look like? 0 000 00000 0000000 000000000 00000000000 0000000000000 000000000000000 00000000000000000 0000000000000000000 000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000 If you need money to survive, and you can't find any contracts for well-paying work that you could do alongside EOMA68, then the best thing to do is either: 1. Do whatever you can with the remaining funds to do the closest you can to fulfilling your promises. This may force you to make cuts. For example, perhaps you might have to scrap the laptop design entirely and only deliver cards and micro-desktops, then fund the laptop design separately later. Or, perhaps you will have to just abandon delivering on the printed-for-you laptops, and everyone would have to print the laptops on their own. This is the solution I would prefer; it would be a bummer to not have everything you sought out for, but at least we would have *something*. A starting point. It's better than nothing. 2. Put the project on hold to get a well-paying, actual job and build up enough savings to continue as originally planned at a later date. 3. First do (1), then do (2) when you run out of funds. Note: You said in a later email that it's just Bitcoin you already had you're "investing" into this, but that's rather splitting hairs. You said you have 0.65 BTC; that's currently worth almost $10,000. That's a *massive* financial loss you're looking at there. If you have no use for the BTC and haven't been touching it, convert it to real currency and put it in your bank. Don't go throwing it at one of these schemes. -- Julie Marchant https://onpon4.github.io Protect your emails with GnuPG: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org From samhuntress at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 17:43:49 2017 From: samhuntress at gmail.com (Sam Huntress) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 12:43:49 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <780a0539-791c-f105-cd68-b04fc6b896be@riseup.net> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <780a0539-791c-f105-cd68-b04fc6b896be@riseup.net> Message-ID: <895AFEC6-8E17-4A77-B12E-B990655F3CB0@gmail.com> >> Look at how many similar schemes, offering no proof of actual mining, >> exist right now. This is not going to end well. > > I have to second this opinion. Luke, doing *nothing* and losing the > funds honorably would easily be preferable over trying to do *any* kind My understanding of bitcoin is that you can 'check the ledger' to see the entire history of every bitcoin including the block it was mined from and the key it was awarded to. Is it not possible for this mining operation to prove they own these keys and show that all BTC they distribute to the pool came from blocks the pool mined? From richard.wilbur at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 20:51:24 2017 From: richard.wilbur at gmail.com (Richard Wilbur) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 13:51:24 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <6C61086D-6BEA-47D1-B2FD-3F91F94B0591@gmail.com> <98EDE830-70C2-44AB-8DF6-FDA4FDE82CBF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6EC93879-90EC-414B-A7C3-04674CFBB3E2@gmail.com> On Dec 25, 2017, at 05:52, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Richard Wilbur > wrote: >> Concerning the keepouts under the connector: >> 1. At the north boundary I would pull the edge up a little further north away from the northwestern differential pair. > > oh! ha, i just made it the opposite direction :) reason: HHPD acts > (kinda) as a GND for that top (HTX2P) and when i did the flood-fill it > looked really weird. i'm switching to a couple of different viewing > styles (one of them is actually the gerbers, there's an "X-Ray" > option. Looks like a good resolution of the issue. > the top 2 VIAs right next to HTX2P are too far away, and the > 15mil-to-GND-keepout condition makes things unbalanced. see proposed > GREEN new via placements and YELLOW track to correct that. I see how it is unbalanced with respect to the two differential pairs--the outside conductors had close to 15mil clearance to ground but the inside conductors had only the distance to the next pad (which was considerably less, ~7mil?). So I applaud the change to make it more symmetric. > when i show X-ray-mode gerbers layers 1 & 2 i mark in yellow at top a > proposed modification, look good? you can see to pin 4 there is that > GND via, the shape of the hole gets really weird / sharp edges there. I'm not seeing the weird / sharp edges so you must have fixed them? > also i'm aware that the layer 2 and 5 bottom-most > curved-shaped-keepout-holes are about 1 mil too far to the left, see > yellow (SE corner) where i'll move them both over. Again, I'm not seeing a problem so you must have fixed it. >> 2. At the west boundary I see your point regarding layers 4 and 5. >> Looks like you have made a good solution. >> I suppose you could add 5mil additional overlap. >> How much overlap does it currently have? > > currently arouuund 9mil roughly. > >> How much opening from the edge of the keepout >> on layer 4 to the edge of the closest connector pads? > > around 4mil. tracks are 5mil so can use that as a scale. In that case I think you have done enough. The overlap looks good. >> Some of the adjustments on layer 6 might be taken care of by >> modifying the net groups to create an "HDMI High-Frequency" >> group which contains only the differential pairs {HTX2P, HTX2N, HTX1P, >> HTX1N, HTX0P, HTX0N, HTXCP, HTXCN}, apply the 15mil conditional >> clearance rule to that group. > > that's what's already done :) > > oh, except to VIAs i kept it at 5mil, now i remember. 15 mil to > landing pads, 15 mil to tracks, 5mil to VIAs i think this was because > i didn't want the holes made by VIAs to be too large. what you think? > make them 15mil too? I'm not as worried about the holes left by the vias on the east (connector) end as the west (processor) end of the differential pairs if we expanded clearance to 15mil. I'm guessing we have more current flowing through layers 2,4,5 over there. I guess the question boils down to, "Where are the power sources and sinks (including decoupling capacitors) relative to the HDMI high-frequency signal vias?" If the vias make holes on a line connecting power sources to sinks, then we need to either make sure there is plenty of copper providing a path around the holes or minimize the size of the holes. From lkcl at lkcl.net Wed Dec 27 21:10:02 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 21:10:02 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: <6EC93879-90EC-414B-A7C3-04674CFBB3E2@gmail.com> References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <6C61086D-6BEA-47D1-B2FD-3F91F94B0591@gmail.com> <98EDE830-70C2-44AB-8DF6-FDA4FDE82CBF@gmail.com> <6EC93879-90EC-414B-A7C3-04674CFBB3E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 8:51 PM, Richard Wilbur wrote: >> when i show X-ray-mode gerbers layers 1 & 2 i mark in yellow at top a >> proposed modification, look good? you can see to pin 4 there is that >> GND via, the shape of the hole gets really weird / sharp edges there. > > I'm not seeing the weird / sharp edges so you must have fixed them? i think so... you checked the video? i''ll do a close-up tomorrow (5am here now) >> also i'm aware that the layer 2 and 5 bottom-most >> curved-shaped-keepout-holes are about 1 mil too far to the left, see >> yellow (SE corner) where i'll move them both over. > > Again, I'm not seeing a problem so you must have fixed it. > >>> 2. At the west boundary I see your point regarding layers 4 and 5. >>> Looks like you have made a good solution. >>> I suppose you could add 5mil additional overlap. >>> How much overlap does it currently have? >> >> currently arouuund 9mil roughly. >> >>> How much opening from the edge of the keepout >>> on layer 4 to the edge of the closest connector pads? >> >> around 4mil. tracks are 5mil so can use that as a scale. > > In that case I think you have done enough. The overlap looks good. whewwww :) >>> Some of the adjustments on layer 6 might be taken care of by >>> modifying the net groups to create an "HDMI High-Frequency" >>> group which contains only the differential pairs {HTX2P, HTX2N, HTX1P, >>> HTX1N, HTX0P, HTX0N, HTXCP, HTXCN}, apply the 15mil conditional >>> clearance rule to that group. >> >> that's what's already done :) >> >> oh, except to VIAs i kept it at 5mil, now i remember. 15 mil to >> landing pads, 15 mil to tracks, 5mil to VIAs i think this was because >> i didn't want the holes made by VIAs to be too large. what you think? >> make them 15mil too? > > I'm not as worried about the holes left by the vias on the east (connector) end as the west (processor) end of the differential pairs if we expanded clearance to 15mil. I'm guessing we have more current flowing through layers 2,4,5 over there. I guess the question boils down to, "Where are the power sources and sinks (including decoupling capacitors) relative to the HDMI high-frequency signal vias?" If the vias make holes on a line connecting power sources to sinks, then we need to either make sure there is plenty of copper providing a path around the holes or minimize the size of the holes. i'll check it again tomorrow but the 5VDC runs along layer 4 right underneath the HDMI long E-W traces. layer 4 3V3 plane was a dog's dinner mess that i had to tidy up last year, and, actually, removing the legacy TSSOP-48 NAND finally actually allowed me to adjust things so that it wasn't a total swiss cheese. in geeeneral i'm happy with the power / GND layout, i've been paying attention to it. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Dec 28 07:06:05 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 07:06:05 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <895AFEC6-8E17-4A77-B12E-B990655F3CB0@gmail.com> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <780a0539-791c-f105-cd68-b04fc6b896be@riseup.net> <895AFEC6-8E17-4A77-B12E-B990655F3CB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 5:43 PM, Sam Huntress wrote: > My understanding of bitcoin is that you can 'check the ledger' to see the entire history of every bitcoin including the block it was mined from and the key it was awarded to. > > Is it not possible for this mining operation to prove they own these keys and show that all BTC they distribute to the pool came from blocks the pool mined? if people published their private wallet addresses then yes. it turns out that there are a number of people online who do videos showing their MLM web front-ends. if some of those people *accidentally* or perhaps even on purpose show their private wallet address then yes you could link through to them. it would be a *lot* of laborious work, going through.... hundreds of hours of youtube video footage. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Dec 28 08:39:06 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 08:39:06 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <780a0539-791c-f105-cd68-b04fc6b896be@riseup.net> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <780a0539-791c-f105-cd68-b04fc6b896be@riseup.net> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > Sent this from the wrong email address. Please excuse the duplicate > email. Luke: if the other email is in the moderation queue, feel free to > just reject it, since it doesn't add anything beyond this version. > > On 2017年12月27日 06:23, Luca Saiu wrote: >> You may want to have a look at this: >> http://behindmlm.com/companies/bitclub-network-review-zeek-ponzi-veterans-at-it-again/ >> >> I have no doubts about your good faith but to put it bluntly the >> investment is morally very questionable, almost certainly illegal, and >> likely to result in financial loss for yourself and the project. It >> would be a shame to see the initiative crash because the funds got stuck >> in a Ponzi. >> >> Look at how many similar schemes, offering no proof of actual mining, >> exist right now. This is not going to end well. > > I have to second this opinion. Luke, doing *nothing* and losing the > funds honorably would easily be preferable over trying to do *any* kind > of "multi-level marketing", which is almost certainly going to be a > financial loss to you. nope, it won't. it's already a gain - someone kindly signed up and took me over the threshold into $200/day commissions. time for celebration, there :) > The idea of "multi-level marketing" can be explained in a chart. The > "0"s represent people buying into it, with the one at the top being the > one who started it. Tell me, what does this look like? i'm not ready yet to tell you the story, publicly, about the pyramid scam perpetrated by the U.S. Federal Reserve back in 2007. the scope and scale is... breathtaking in its brazen-ness. Senator Ron Paul's book "End The Fed" and that film on the AAA+ mortgage scam is just the tip of the iceberg that can be traced DIRECTLY back to, correlating DIRECTLY with, that blatantly unethical and BEYOND criminal decision. please... it makes me see red to hear people compare MLMs to pyramid scams when, if you know where to look, you can see evidence of governments basically doing exactly that and pretending it's not. i'm taking it down a few mental defcon levels now... getting over the feeling of outrage... callm, caaalm... i've actually joined an MLM before (Moxxor - didn't make anything because my partner ran it, we set up 3 accounts.... and she put everything in "left leg"... sigh) and i know people who have (my partner joined Usana 10 years ago and encouraged her family to join). she earned a good salary at the time so it wasn't "risk", and actually ended up buying then giving away quite a lot of pharmaceutical-grade products to friends who really needed it. the problem was not so much that it was damn hard work but that it "fizzled out". people gave up, disillusioned, and, DESPITE the warnings, tried suing Usana. idiots, the lot of them. most MLMs have a peak period where the exponential effect, like any evolutionarily constrained growth, out-strips "supply" and tails off. i even did the implementation of "fox and chickens" population algorithm growth, many years ago. bitclbub will be absolutely no different from that, and everybody KNOWS that IN ADVANCE. there's even warnings about it actually *on* the informational pages and articles in the site. everyone KNOWS that unless something drastically changes, there's a window of opportunity of 3 to 5 years where mining is profitable. 12.5 BTC reward this year, 6.25 18 months after that, 3.125 18 months after that... ... and that's probably the point where they might actually consider shutting the entire operation down. or adapting to different currencies. they do also offer GPU mining of about 7 or 8 altcoins. > > If you need money to survive, and you can't find any contracts for > well-paying work that you could do alongside EOMA68, then the best > thing to do is either: well... someone very kindly joined and put in enough so that i've crossed the first threshold for commissions :) > 1. Do whatever you can with the remaining funds to do the closest you > can to fulfilling your promises. This may force you to make cuts. i'd already been doing that. the NAND is gone, and the next thing that would have to go would be HDMI. this would be a bitch as anyone with stand-alone Cards wouldn't be able to use them. i'd have to give those people a Micro-Desktop PCB. > For > example, perhaps you might have to scrap the laptop design entirely i really *really* don't want to do that :) and, luckily, it looks like i now won't have to. yay! > and > only deliver cards and micro-desktops, then fund the laptop design > separately later. yehyeh that's what the current plan is. > Or, perhaps you will have to just abandon delivering > on the printed-for-you laptops, and everyone would have to print the > laptops on their own. This is the solution I would prefer; it would be a > bummer to not have everything you sought out for, but at least we would > have *something*. A starting point. It's better than nothing. yyyeahh > 2. Put the project on hold to get a well-paying, actual job and build up > enough savings to continue as originally planned at a later date. there are enough people already contacting me (1 every update, usually) that further delays would be... bad. if i am explaining privately to people that i am *actively* getting on with things, they're fine with that. if i don't *have* an answer, it all goes to hell in a handbasket very very quickly. also, the fact that i am a software libre developer with such significant copyright material, and that i had to stop adding to my CV about 4 years ago when it got to i think 15 pages in length actually means that i'm not really "employable" by traditional companies. the insecure CTOs usually freak out and believe i'm after their job, and the secure and sensible people state quite openly, "you will get bored here, it would be IRRESPONSIBLE of us to employ you". as a result my "employment" - actual paid work vs time not being paid - has been consistently somewhere around FIFTEEN percent for the past 20 years. average income over a 20 year period: around USD $15,000. bottom line is: anyone else this idea would be fine. for me - aged 47 and at the point where i should be a CTO of my own company.... not going to work, is it? > 3. First do (1), then do (2) when you run out of funds. yes - you basically described my default fall-back plan, in a nutshell. some time about 5 weeks ago, i was pretty depressed and f****g fed up, basically, and i went, "right, that's it, i've HAD it with this consistent decade-long scraping around". i recovered the BTC i got from the (almost failed, f*****g dangerous) butterfly labs equipment purchased 4-5 years ago, and on hearing about bitclub from a friend, immediately recognised the benefits *thanks* to my former experience with MLMs and with mining, and it was an easy decision. > Note: You said in a later email that it's just Bitcoin you already had > you're "investing" into this, but that's rather splitting hairs. yes it is - i run on some... interesting ethically-based heuristics. i didn't mention this before but last year i GAVE AWAY 1.3 of the bitcoins mined by that incredibly dangerous butterflylabs equipment to my sponsor, chris, from thinkpenguin. he'd sponsored me by that point to the tune of USD $60,000, so it felt "right" to just... give it to him. > You said you have 0.65 BTC; that's currently worth almost $10,000. it wasn't: 0.4 BTC was about... $3500 at the time i bought the equipment. and it's already bought. the decision's been made. 0.25 i gave to someone in order to invest in their 3D printing products, as a joint venture / investor in him, he's an extremely reclusive and exceptionally competent engineer, and he'll be able to pay for converting one of his products to injection-molded and we'll be able to market it and make quite a lot of money. i've never actually invested in anyone else's business before, it's a first for me. and i could *only* consider doing it because that BTC came from a source that has absolutely nothing to do with the crowdfunding. obviously though i chose to invest in something that will, indirectly, benefit EOMA68 (in this case the 3D printing part). the nature of who i am and what i am is not changing: over the past 20 years i've been through absolute HELL and the worst kinds of exploitation by corporations spongeing off of my expertise, i've witnessed key strategic people in the free software community also end up being targetted by people wishing to exploit them, and i'm not putting up with it any longer. > That's a > *massive* financial loss you're looking at there. If you have no use for > the BTC and haven't been touching it, convert it to real currency and > put it in your bank. nnope. the bang-per-buck ratio of doing so vs the potential to fulfil the plans that i've been working on, everything i've read over the past 20 years tells me that's "failure" talk. i've been looking for something like this for some time, with the potential and also sufficiently ethically justifiable to consider leveraging. ... one person i'm in touch with, they've been investigating altcoin trading. they have asperger's so have the attention span and the intelligence to VERY quickly do the research and experimentation. what they've uncovered... holy f*** the insider trading and "pump-and-dump" tactics being deployed world-wide right now are OUTRIGHT BRAZEN. i did try talking him out of it but he seems to be doing ok: he's up $1800 in 10 days and has encountered and fallen foul of both John Macaffee's twitter "pump-and-dump" "AltCoin Of The Day!!!" scam *and* the fraudulent guy who my next target's USD $400 / day, which is where, every 9-10 days, i'll be able to buy people from the free software and libre hardware community a share of equipment that will earn them $30-$50 a day. all of that funded not through putting CASH in but using MINED BITCOIN and *commission* to do it. l. From phil at hands.com Thu Dec 28 08:47:07 2017 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 09:47:07 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> On Wed, 27 Dec 2017, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: ... > (3) this is quite LITERALLY the opposite of a ponzi scheme. they are > LITERALLY making the bitcoin that underpins the entire scheme. this > is a completely unique approach which is actually extremely clever. It seems to me that one way of looking at this is that they are using other people's money to bet that the BTC price will go up on average, and then using the resulting profit to do a spot of mining as cover. Whether they are paying people back from the speculation profit and/or in the traditional ponzi manner from later investor's funds doesn't seem to make much difference to me. Most of the people involved in this to date would almost certainly have been better off simply buying BTC at the start, and selling them some time later on. Likewise, saying that you're only putting BTC in, and hence its only pretend money (or some such) ignores the opportunity cost of no longer being able to sell those BTC for cold hard cash. So this looks to me like a ponzi built on a speculation bubble, which might be a way of making the ponzi survive longer than it would do otherwise, but if and when the BTC bubble bursts[1] investors are going to discover that the people in charge have done a runner with the remaining assets and that any balance still held within the scheme is just gone. Luke, given your repeated assertions about the importance of ethics I'm astonished that you'd be willing to be anywhere near such a scheme. Cheers, Phil. [1] The actual underlying value of BTC, if it has one, seems to me to be a decentralised medium of exchange. The volatility has recently convinced Storm to stop accepting them: http://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail/1464096684955433613 which seems like a pretty bad sign for the underlying value. What's left is 90% speculation and 10% criminality. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY From eaterjolly at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 08:54:14 2017 From: eaterjolly at gmail.com (Jean Flamelle) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 03:54:14 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <780a0539-791c-f105-cd68-b04fc6b896be@riseup.net> <895AFEC6-8E17-4A77-B12E-B990655F3CB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bitcoin is hyper-deflated due to over speculation. With 16.7 million bitcoin across 21 million wallets lets say averaging 1.2 wallets per person meaning very roughly ~17.5 million wallets within a deviation of that statistic probably close to +/- 2.5 million, leaves between 1.114 btc and 0.835 btc per person. For comparison: 1.55 trillion usd across 326 million citizens ( generously disregarding the petro-dollar attribute ), leaves about 4.7 thousand usd per citizen. If every bitcoin wallet owner considered spent bitcoin exclusively and with the same purchasing power as the average us citizen and with the same habits, the tangible value of between 1.114 and 0.835 btc would be approximately 4.7 thousand usd. None of this is the current economic reality though, as a very miniscule percentage of wallet owners actually survive by spending bitcoin. Additionally the petro-dollar trait increases the population which owns primarily usd significantly about the us population, which would increase its value and thereby decrease bitcoin's relative tangible value. So this valuation is very generous in favor of bitcoin, to say the least. Many of the transactions done in bitcoin are black market, which is showing increasing demand for switching to Monero ( a currency which launders as a part of the mining operation at a high risk of losing portions to malicious attackers ). This switch may help bitcoin with legitimacy issues, but also may not if both currencies share popularity. Either way so long as some interest in Monero exists, that is a cut in value. Many of the detractors uninterested in bitcoin's effect on crime, will argue the ecological effect of crypto-currency mining procedures through massive electrical requirement. Most of these detractors may be satisfied once Ethereum implements the first large scale proof-of-stake algorithm which requires only execution of the transaction and staking one's own currency on the accuracy thereof. The appeal of creating entire organizations with contracts on the platform, Ethereum has a non-trivial possibility of becoming independent of trade outside its marketplace ( a thing countries strive for ). This depends on the security of auditing contract code as well as fulfilling the promise to actually release a proof of stake protocol. If those two conditions are met, there would then be an argument for bitcoin becoming considered obsolete. However it is also possible many will remain unconfortable with the principle of weighing one's influence on consensus as proportional to how much currency they are willing to gamble on that influence, and will prefer bitcoin's most efficient hardware approach as supporting cryptographic research indirectly. All in all, if you purchase bitcoin at today's market price in usd, you are making the bet that bitcoin's base will fully convert there finances to bitcoin and the number of those people will increase by a magnitude of 3 before selling or that the consensus among speculators will change to make bets that it will increase above a magnitude of 3 before you sell. All in all, this type of speculation rewards gambling and malicious mass misinformation campaigns and I would not support it by participating. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Dec 28 09:13:16 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 09:13:16 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 8:47 AM, Philip Hands wrote: > On Wed, 27 Dec 2017, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > ... >> (3) this is quite LITERALLY the opposite of a ponzi scheme. they are >> LITERALLY making the bitcoin that underpins the entire scheme. this >> is a completely unique approach which is actually extremely clever. > > It seems to me that one way of looking at this is that they are using > other people's money to bet that the BTC price will go up on average, > and then using the resulting profit to do a spot of mining as cover. interestingly they just had to double the commission payouts from $100 to $200. i was watching the pages describing the commissions: one day they were $100, the next it was $200. i believe this is in response to how drastically the exchange rate for BTC went up. this is one of the indicators, to me, that they're legit. it's also extremely clever of them, to link the commissions directly to a currency that is anticipated to continuously fall. what's hilarious is that the equipment shares is priced in the same currency, so *that* falls in value relative to BTC as well. basically as BTC goes up, the value of the commissions and the relative cost of the equipment - which are in fixed USD amounts and *converted* to BTC - go *DOWN*. which is also an interesting salutory lesson to people that as crypto currencies go up, the value of fiat currencies go DOWN. can you imagine if this was BTC/EUR changing 1000%? > Whether they are paying people back from the speculation profit and/or > in the traditional ponzi manner from later investor's funds doesn't seem > to make much difference to me. > > Most of the people involved in this to date would almost certainly have > been better off simply buying BTC at the start, and selling them some > time later on. ... which i've already determined to be risky and unethical. it's too close to the exploitation i've witnessed - and my friend has recently uncovered clear and blatant evidence of. mining however is *completely* different, not least because it, in no way, *actually* involves actual cash, and it is not directly related to "exchange rates" or the trading of currencies, at all. > Likewise, saying that you're only putting BTC in, and hence its only > pretend money (or some such) ignores the opportunity cost of no longer > being able to sell those BTC for cold hard cash. ... which i don't feel comfortable doing. as in, i don't feel comfortable interfacing officially with one of the exchange sites. i'm happy basically to keep a very clear division that i will only cross reluctantly and very indirectly between BTC and fiat currencies. there are good reasons for doing so. also the risk-benefit analysis came up, for me, from *my* experience and ability to assess these things (in the face of unknown and unknowable information such as "how many people, how much have they invested" etc.), as "take the opportunity and throw both oxygen tanks and napalm on it" > So this looks to me like a ponzi built on a speculation bubble, which > might be a way of making the ponzi survive longer than it would do > otherwise, but if and when the BTC bubble bursts[1] investors are going > to discover that the people in charge have done a runner with the > remaining assets and that any balance still held within the scheme is > just gone. > > Luke, given your repeated assertions about the importance of ethics I'm > astonished that you'd be willing to be anywhere near such a scheme. the definition of an ethical act is: * to increase truth, awareness, love or creativity (those being synonyms for the same underlying principle) for one or more people (including yourself) WITHOUT decreasing ANY of those same four qualities FOR ANYONE. that's a very very specific and flexible definition of an ethical act that, for example, perfectly well permits people to go to war in defense of their country, and many other things that others might, without such a clear and flexible definition, consider "unethical". it's also... really quite challenging to "unpack" that definition (it's in effect a "4th normalised form" if you get the SQL database analogy). i'll be tracking the behaviour of this group closely to ensure that it meets that ethical criteria. any sign of unethical acts on their part - more to the point any sign that by MY actions and decisions *I* am causing harm by leveraging this opportunity - and i'll drop them instantly. i have to. my committment to that definition takes absolute precedence. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Dec 28 09:16:25 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 09:16:25 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <780a0539-791c-f105-cd68-b04fc6b896be@riseup.net> <895AFEC6-8E17-4A77-B12E-B990655F3CB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Jean Flamelle wrote: > All in all, this type of speculation rewards gambling and malicious > mass misinformation campaigns and I would not support it by > participating. thank you, jean, for a really informative and insightful discourse. your arguments are precisely why i will not participate in crypto-currency trading. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Dec 28 09:49:30 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 09:49:30 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <6C61086D-6BEA-47D1-B2FD-3F91F94B0591@gmail.com> <98EDE830-70C2-44AB-8DF6-FDA4FDE82CBF@gmail.com> <6EC93879-90EC-414B-A7C3-04674CFBB3E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: ok so this, richard, is the point i was talking about, yellow arrow. the purple area was formerly too far to the left, leaving a very weird shape that i wasn't happy with. all good. ok i'll move on to checking the ground planes and power planes. PADS has this annoying habit of, when you join up two tracks, it goes "oh that completes a loop... i'll just do the job of tidying it up by DELETING all those GND VIAs you so carefully put in..." nggggh so you have to keep an eye out for that :) l. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19948 bytes Desc: not available URL: From samhuntress at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 14:44:59 2017 From: samhuntress at gmail.com (Sam Huntress) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 09:44:59 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <780a0539-791c-f105-cd68-b04fc6b896be@riseup.net> <895AFEC6-8E17-4A77-B12E-B990655F3CB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: > if people published their private wallet addresses then yes. No. The entire point of public/private key pairs is that you can prove you own the pair without revealing the private key. https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/58792/proof-of-address-ownership We can use the bitcoin ledger (blockchain) to see what address every mining reward went to. This mining pool needs to prove they own one or more of those addresses in order to be trusted. They do this by privately signing some arbitrary challenge using the private key associated with the public key to which the mining reward was assigned. That public key (that we know from looking at the blockchain owns the BTC awarded through mining) is then used to confirm the signature thus confirming that the mining pool does indeed own that key pair and therefor did actually receive the BTC for mining that block. We can then look at the BTC<->USD exchange rates and see if the payouts from this mining pool are within reason. On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 4:16 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Jean Flamelle > wrote: > > > All in all, this type of speculation rewards gambling and malicious > > mass misinformation campaigns and I would not support it by > > participating. > > thank you, jean, for a really informative and insightful discourse. > your arguments are precisely why i will not participate in > crypto-currency trading. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Dec 28 14:54:31 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 14:54:31 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <780a0539-791c-f105-cd68-b04fc6b896be@riseup.net> <895AFEC6-8E17-4A77-B12E-B990655F3CB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Sam Huntress wrote: >> if people published their private wallet addresses then yes. > No. The entire point of public/private key pairs is that you can prove you > own the pair without revealing the private key. > https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/58792/proof-of-address-ownership sorry: i meant, everyone has a private wallet into which they're receiving bitcoin. the public key of that wallet is put into their management console web front-end. > We can use the bitcoin ledger (blockchain) to see what address every mining > reward went to. This mining pool needs to prove they own one or more of > those addresses in order to be trusted. They do this by privately signing > some arbitrary challenge using the private key associated with the public > key to which the mining reward was assigned. That public key (that we know > from looking at the blockchain owns the BTC awarded through mining) is then > used to confirm the signature thus confirming that the mining pool does > indeed own that key pair and therefor did actually receive the BTC for > mining that block. ok so... does this assume that we can find out what the public key of people's "receive" wallets actually are? here's one (mine): 19trK4AVnCC1YHdJfgWWfpZ9c2uLociNjQ so it should be possible to do a proof-of-concept... ahh... except i'm not planning to actually take any BTC out in the immediate future... ok i could transfer *something* out, like $10 or something. getting hold of anyone else's public-key for their wallets means doing a *lot* of trawling of youtube and/or looking online for screenshots that people might have accidentally published via the various "hey this is real sign up under me" jobbie videos. > We can then look at the BTC<->USD exchange rates and see if the payouts > from this mining pool are within reason. i also found a page that shows how many "Founders" there are. a "Founder" is defined as "anyone who has at least a $3500 share in the three mining pools". there were around 14,000 such people as of arouuund.... november 1st. it should be possible to make a guestimate of the total number of people in the network based on that, if we make some conservative guesses about the ratio of the number of people who did *not* by full shares vs those who bought partial shares. it's quite a lot of assumptions.... it'd do for a start. y'know what... we could... um... just... ask them :) l. From onpon4 at riseup.net Thu Dec 28 14:58:02 2017 From: onpon4 at riseup.net (Julie Marchant) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 09:58:02 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> Message-ID: <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Ugh, did it again. Sorry. On 2017年12月28日 04:13, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > it's > too close to the exploitation i've witnessed - and my friend has > recently uncovered clear and blatant evidence of. mining however is > *completely* different, not least because it, in no way, *actually* > involves actual cash, and it is not directly related to "exchange > rates" or the trading of currencies, at all. So, you're somehow ethically opposed to trading Bitcoin for money, and yet not ethically opposed to trading it for goods? That doesn't make a lick of sense, Luke. Money is just a representation of how many goods and services you have produced for others. Economically, there is *no difference* between giving someone Bitcoin for USD and giving someone Bitcoin for food. You know what's unethical? Mining Bitcoin. Because as has already been mentioned, mining Bitcoin uses a *ton* of energy, and it doesn't actually produce anything in the end. Isn't one of the main features of EOMA68 being environmentally responsible? Well, using Bitcoin mining (through a scheme like this, no less) to fund something that is supposed to be environmentally responsible is the height of hypocrisy. (And yes, it would be funding EOMA68, regardless of whatever kind of weaseling you might do to say it isn't. If you depend on it to work on EOMA68, it's funding EOMA68.) Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an option if you go through with this? -- Julie Marchant https://onpon4.github.io Protect your emails with GnuPG: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org From samhuntress at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 15:07:12 2017 From: samhuntress at gmail.com (Sam Huntress) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 10:07:12 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: Currently Bitcoin is an insane gold-rush bubble that is frivolous and wasteful but it has the potential to balance out into the secure, distributed, democratized digital currency it was designed to be and I think that is something worth spending energy on. On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Julie Marchant wrote: > Ugh, did it again. Sorry. > > On 2017年12月28日 04:13, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > it's > > too close to the exploitation i've witnessed - and my friend has > > recently uncovered clear and blatant evidence of. mining however is > > *completely* different, not least because it, in no way, *actually* > > involves actual cash, and it is not directly related to "exchange > > rates" or the trading of currencies, at all. > > So, you're somehow ethically opposed to trading Bitcoin for money, and > yet not ethically opposed to trading it for goods? That doesn't make a > lick of sense, Luke. Money is just a representation of how many goods > and services you have produced for others. Economically, there is *no > difference* between giving someone Bitcoin for USD and giving someone > Bitcoin for food. > > You know what's unethical? Mining Bitcoin. Because as has already been > mentioned, mining Bitcoin uses a *ton* of energy, and it doesn't > actually produce anything in the end. Isn't one of the main features of > EOMA68 being environmentally responsible? Well, using Bitcoin mining > (through a scheme like this, no less) to fund something that is supposed > to be environmentally responsible is the height of hypocrisy. (And yes, > it would be funding EOMA68, regardless of whatever kind of weaseling you > might do to say it isn't. If you depend on it to work on EOMA68, it's > funding EOMA68.) > > Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an > option if you go through with this? > > -- > Julie Marchant > https://onpon4.github.io > > Protect your emails with GnuPG: > https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Dec 28 16:32:55 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 16:32:55 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Sam Huntress wrote: > Currently Bitcoin is an insane gold-rush bubble that is frivolous and > wasteful but it has the potential to balance out into the secure, > distributed, democratized digital currency it was designed to be and I > think that is something worth spending energy on. indeed... would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage *this* opportunity... such that the funds were available to *create* an eco-responsible coin that is *properly* libre, properly peer-to-peer distributed, and so on? look at what i put out only a few weeks ago, we analysed at least two alt-coins that, whilst the people behind it had their hearts in the right places they *still* did not fundamentally get it. if we don't do this "properly" then those alt-coins will be all that is available... oh and bitcoin. is that something we really really want? gone midnight here (julie) i'll write a more complete reply tomorrow. l. From samhuntress at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 16:46:57 2017 From: samhuntress at gmail.com (Sam Huntress) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:46:57 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: >would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage *this* opportunity The problem is that '*this* opportunity' absolutely screams pyramid scheme and should not be trusted without solid verification that the operators of this mining pool are making the investments they claim to be making. On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 11:32 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Sam Huntress > wrote: > > > Currently Bitcoin is an insane gold-rush bubble that is frivolous and > > wasteful but it has the potential to balance out into the secure, > > distributed, democratized digital currency it was designed to be and I > > think that is something worth spending energy on. > > indeed... would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage > *this* opportunity... such that the funds were available to *create* > an eco-responsible coin that is *properly* libre, properly > peer-to-peer distributed, and so on? > > look at what i put out only a few weeks ago, we analysed at least two > alt-coins that, whilst the people behind it had their hearts in the > right places they *still* did not fundamentally get it. > > if we don't do this "properly" then those alt-coins will be all that > is available... oh and bitcoin. is that something we really really > want? > > gone midnight here (julie) i'll write a more complete reply tomorrow. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From lkcl at lkcl.net Thu Dec 28 16:54:39 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 16:54:39 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Sam Huntress wrote: >>would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage > *this* opportunity > > The problem is that '*this* opportunity' absolutely screams pyramid scheme > and should not be trusted without solid verification that the operators of > this mining pool are making the investments they claim to be making. genesi - a competing mining company which people seem to trust - have virtually zero transparency. if someone wants to help tracking down some bitcoin wallet addresses from youtube videos so that the blockchain analysis can be done that would be great. the pool stats are available (remember bitclub actually started out as a simple mining pool.... that some bright spark went "huh why don't we drop a MLM on top of this?") - there's videos of some of the equipment in various data centres. briefly, last thing today: the equipment in rekjavik they're sinking their *own* geothermal bore-holes and installing their *own* turbines, keeping it connected to iceland's national grid where geothermal electricity is extremely cheap, and, of course, cooling is literally free. more on this tomorrow, gotta sleep. l. From onpon4 at riseup.net Thu Dec 28 17:11:46 2017 From: onpon4 at riseup.net (Julie Marchant) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 12:11:46 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing Message-ID: gnu taler seems sufficient to me. We don't need crypto currency, a way to anonymously and securely transfer actual money should do just fine. -- Julie Marchant https://onpon4.github.io On Dec 28, 2017 11:32 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Sam Huntress wrote: > > > Currently Bitcoin is an insane gold-rush bubble that is frivolous and > > wasteful but it has the potential to balance out into the secure, > > distributed, democratized digital currency it was designed to be and I > > think that is something worth spending energy on. > > indeed...  would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage > *this* opportunity... such that the funds were available to *create* > an eco-responsible coin that is *properly* libre, properly > peer-to-peer distributed, and so on? > > look at what i put out only a few weeks ago, we analysed at least two > alt-coins that, whilst the people behind it had their hearts in the > right places they *still* did not fundamentally get it. > > if we don't do this "properly" then those alt-coins will be all that > is available... oh and bitcoin.  is that something we really really > want? > > gone midnight here (julie) i'll write a more complete reply tomorrow. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From penyuanhsing at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 17:17:14 2017 From: penyuanhsing at gmail.com (Pen-Yuan Hsing) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:17:14 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting, I haven't heard of GNU Taler. But please excuse my ignorance: Reading the official website doesn't help me understand exactly what it is. Can you explain (or link to a good explanation)? On 28/12/17 17:11, Julie Marchant wrote: > gnu taler seems sufficient to me. We don't need crypto currency, a way to anonymously and securely transfer actual money should do just fine. > -- > Julie Marchant > https://onpon4.github.io > > On Dec 28, 2017 11:32 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Sam Huntress wrote: >> >>> Currently Bitcoin is an insane gold-rush bubble that is frivolous and >>> wasteful but it has the potential to balance out into the secure, >>> distributed, democratized digital currency it was designed to be and I >>> think that is something worth spending energy on. >> >> indeed...  would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage >> *this* opportunity... such that the funds were available to *create* >> an eco-responsible coin that is *properly* libre, properly >> peer-to-peer distributed, and so on? >> >> look at what i put out only a few weeks ago, we analysed at least two >> alt-coins that, whilst the people behind it had their hearts in the >> right places they *still* did not fundamentally get it. >> >> if we don't do this "properly" then those alt-coins will be all that >> is available... oh and bitcoin.  is that something we really really >> want? >> >> gone midnight here (julie) i'll write a more complete reply tomorrow. >> >> l. From lasich at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 17:35:37 2017 From: lasich at gmail.com (Hrvoje Lasic) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 18:35:37 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: On 28 December 2017 at 17:54, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Sam Huntress > wrote: > >>would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage > > *this* opportunity > > > > The problem is that '*this* opportunity' absolutely screams pyramid > scheme > > and should not be trusted without solid verification that the operators > of > > this mining pool are making the investments they claim to be making. > > genesi - a competing mining company which people seem to trust - have > virtually zero transparency. if someone wants to help tracking down > some bitcoin wallet addresses from youtube videos so that the > blockchain analysis can be done that would be great. > when you google genesis, one of first thing it pops up is scam alert. It is well known fact. > > the pool stats are available (remember bitclub actually started out > as a simple mining pool.... that some bright spark went "huh why don't > we drop a MLM on top of this?") - there's videos of some of the > equipment in various data centres. > > briefly, last thing today: the equipment in rekjavik they're sinking > their *own* geothermal bore-holes and installing their *own* turbines, > keeping it connected to iceland's national grid where geothermal > electricity is extremely cheap, and, of course, cooling is literally > free. > > more on this tomorrow, gotta sleep. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From adam at vany.ca Thu Dec 28 18:43:36 2017 From: adam at vany.ca (Adam Van Ymeren) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 13:43:36 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On December 28, 2017 12:17:14 PM EST, Pen-Yuan Hsing wrote: >Interesting, I haven't heard of GNU Taler. But please excuse my >ignorance: Reading the official website doesn't help me understand >exactly what it is. Can you explain (or link to a good explanation)? > >On 28/12/17 17:11, Julie Marchant wrote: >> gnu taler seems sufficient to me. We don't need crypto currency, a >way to anonymously and securely transfer actual money should do just >fine. >> -- >> Julie Marchant >> https://onpon4.github.io >> >> On Dec 28, 2017 11:32 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: >>> On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Sam Huntress > wrote: >>> >>>> Currently Bitcoin is an insane gold-rush bubble that is frivolous >and >>>> wasteful but it has the potential to balance out into the secure, >>>> distributed, democratized digital currency it was designed to be >and I >>>> think that is something worth spending energy on. >>> >>> indeed...  would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage >>> *this* opportunity... such that the funds were available to *create* >>> an eco-responsible coin that is *properly* libre, properly >>> peer-to-peer distributed, and so on? >>> >>> look at what i put out only a few weeks ago, we analysed at least >two >>> alt-coins that, whilst the people behind it had their hearts in the >>> right places they *still* did not fundamentally get it. >>> >>> if we don't do this "properly" then those alt-coins will be all that >>> is available... oh and bitcoin.  is that something we really really >>> want? >>> >>> gone midnight here (julie) i'll write a more complete reply >tomorrow. >>> >>> l. > >_______________________________________________ >arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk GNU Taler is like a digital IOU system. It issues cryptographic tokens that are basically like IOUs for fiat currency. I transfer money from my bank to an exchange and receive tokens. I spent my tokens with a vendor. The vendor redeems tokens with the exchange to get fiat money into their bank account. Theres more too it in the protocols that provides anonymity for the spender and an auditable log for the exchange, the ability to provide "change" for a transactio, nbut that's the gist of it. From samhuntress at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 18:48:20 2017 From: samhuntress at gmail.com (Sam Huntress) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 13:48:20 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: GNU Taler is a fundamentally different system than Bitcoin. Unless I misunderstand the information on their website. GNU Taler appears to be a third party; analogous to a credit card company or a bank. GNU Taler could manage and secure your cash (or bitcoin) for you and be trusted to ensure that transactions are carried out smoothly. In contrast, Bitcoin is analogous to hard currency (Euro coins, US dollar bills, gold, etc), and is something that can be managed for you by a trusted third party. On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Hrvoje Lasic wrote: > On 28 December 2017 at 17:54, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > > > --- > > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Sam Huntress > > wrote: > > >>would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage > > > *this* opportunity > > > > > > The problem is that '*this* opportunity' absolutely screams pyramid > > scheme > > > and should not be trusted without solid verification that the operators > > of > > > this mining pool are making the investments they claim to be making. > > > > genesi - a competing mining company which people seem to trust - have > > virtually zero transparency. if someone wants to help tracking down > > some bitcoin wallet addresses from youtube videos so that the > > blockchain analysis can be done that would be great. > > > > > when you google genesis, one of first thing it pops up is scam alert. It is > well known fact. > > > > > > > the pool stats are available (remember bitclub actually started out > > as a simple mining pool.... that some bright spark went "huh why don't > > we drop a MLM on top of this?") - there's videos of some of the > > equipment in various data centres. > > > > briefly, last thing today: the equipment in rekjavik they're sinking > > their *own* geothermal bore-holes and installing their *own* turbines, > > keeping it connected to iceland's national grid where geothermal > > electricity is extremely cheap, and, of course, cooling is literally > > free. > > > > more on this tomorrow, gotta sleep. > > > > l. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 20:07:24 2017 From: mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com (Mike Henry) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 13:07:24 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: Luke, I know you are a really smart guy. If this group has such a great mining set up, why do they need people to join and give them money? The math of this doesn't make any sense. They could use profits from mining to buy more equipment, they shouldn't need people to give them money, then have those people get more people to sign on. It is a classic MLM scheme where the product is bitcoin instead of some other junk. Jean really knows what they are talking about. I know you are in a desperate situation with lots of pressure, but if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Sam Huntress wrote: > GNU Taler is a fundamentally different system than Bitcoin. Unless I > misunderstand the information on their website. > > GNU Taler appears to be a third party; analogous to a credit card company > or a bank. GNU Taler could manage and secure your cash (or bitcoin) for you > and be trusted to ensure that transactions are carried out smoothly. > > In contrast, Bitcoin is analogous to hard currency (Euro coins, US dollar > bills, gold, etc), and is something that can be managed for you by a > trusted third party. > > On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Hrvoje Lasic wrote: > >> On 28 December 2017 at 17:54, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> wrote: >> >> > --- >> > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Sam Huntress >> > wrote: >> > >>would it not be worthwhile, do you think, to leverage >> > > *this* opportunity >> > > >> > > The problem is that '*this* opportunity' absolutely screams pyramid >> > scheme >> > > and should not be trusted without solid verification that the operators >> > of >> > > this mining pool are making the investments they claim to be making. >> > >> > genesi - a competing mining company which people seem to trust - have >> > virtually zero transparency. if someone wants to help tracking down >> > some bitcoin wallet addresses from youtube videos so that the >> > blockchain analysis can be done that would be great. >> > >> >> >> when you google genesis, one of first thing it pops up is scam alert. It is >> well known fact. >> >> >> >> > >> > the pool stats are available (remember bitclub actually started out >> > as a simple mining pool.... that some bright spark went "huh why don't >> > we drop a MLM on top of this?") - there's videos of some of the >> > equipment in various data centres. >> > >> > briefly, last thing today: the equipment in rekjavik they're sinking >> > their *own* geothermal bore-holes and installing their *own* turbines, >> > keeping it connected to iceland's national grid where geothermal >> > electricity is extremely cheap, and, of course, cooling is literally >> > free. >> > >> > more on this tomorrow, gotta sleep. >> > >> > l. >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk >> > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From vkontogpls at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 21:56:37 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 23:56:37 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:08 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > so, ahh i would say it's christmas come early but it really *is* christmas :) > unlike many people to whom i've pitched the idea of an entirely libre > SoC, madhu instead responded, "ok sure, what would you like?". > initially being rather confused by this positive response, i outlined > this page http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/ and slowly > began asking more questions. > Love it. One of the few times national interests happen to be the same as those of the free world movement. Also amazing answer. If this goes well it will go down in history as one of those famous conversations in the early days of tech we read about. that's still 30 chips for a > zero financial outlay where normally the cost would be around $5m, one > each at at 20nm, 28nm and one more at 40nm. > So we have the chance to get a node ahead AND RISCv64 ? Awesome. > the only condition is: the entire SoC *must* be entirely libre. > that's right down to the bedrock: not just the entire ASIC design but > also the software stack running on it. you know the reasons why: > "Intel Management Engine". > Hehehe https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-8762-inside_intel_management_engine > * finding the right team(s) of people with links to the free software > community to target 3D, Video and so on. This is something that I don't get with the shakti project. How are they planning to tackle the 2d/3d/vpu problem? From my understanding there aren't any libre designs available out of the box, cpu rendering is expensive and wasteful, anything memory compression related is patented and pretty much required when talking about ddr and not gddr and their page doesn't detail anything about that. Also external gpus are out of the question for obvious reasons. > now, it turns out that *IF* the processor is designed SUCH THAT it is > desirable for use in the indian schools market - either as laptops, > netbooks, tablets or desktop machines (laptops would be better), THEN > it is a near-automatic process of getting to market, orders of 10 > million units are not a problem. > Sounds like magic to my ears. > note that *this is exactly what the EOMA68 Libre Laptop Housing is > for*, and would be an immediate base on which to get demo units in > front of people, very very quickly (just have to take care of making > an EOMA68-RISCV64 Card). > Indeed, and it would mean you could consider getting molds done as well instead of 3d printing the cases. > so, any ideas, input etc. welcomed. Be wary of the 20nm node. From my experience phones of that generation were the first to have overheating problems. Power leaking is very high. I know there have been some new nodes at 20nm recently with better characteristics though. Also I'd like to see the faces of the RPi foundation if this comes into fruition. 20nm vs 40nm all libre and mainline huge volumes and at the same price ballpark as the RPi but without the cartel control they enjoy. Good luck Luke, you really deserve this. From calmstorm at posteo.de Thu Dec 28 22:33:46 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:33:46 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] open risc v question: In-Reply-To: References: <20171227142536.2dkp3dy26bywquyj@galactic.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <0dcc6180-d716-a5f8-9720-068ea6a70ca5@posteo.de> Are the shakti processors arm based for the architecture or some new architecture or a different one. I believe you said the M class is supposed to be less than 1W. Which sounds absolutely insane. Dunno how they will do that, but it looks interesting especially considering the blazing speed it says on the charts. From calmstorm at posteo.de Thu Dec 28 22:34:56 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:34:56 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] open risc v question: In-Reply-To: <0dcc6180-d716-a5f8-9720-068ea6a70ca5@posteo.de> References: <20171227142536.2dkp3dy26bywquyj@galactic.demon.co.uk> <0dcc6180-d716-a5f8-9720-068ea6a70ca5@posteo.de> Message-ID: <0c522e31-dd57-e806-c342-c20c23af6f1a@posteo.de> MY Bad, I sent two of these by mistake. I meant to send one to Luke exclusively... as well On 12/28/2017 05:33 PM, zap wrote: > Are the shakti processors arm based for the architecture or some new > architecture or a different one. > > I believe you said the M class is supposed to be less than 1W. Which > sounds absolutely insane. Dunno how they will do that, but it looks > interesting especially considering the blazing speed it says on the charts. From vkontogpls at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 22:56:49 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 00:56:49 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] open risc v question: In-Reply-To: <0dcc6180-d716-a5f8-9720-068ea6a70ca5@posteo.de> References: <20171227142536.2dkp3dy26bywquyj@galactic.demon.co.uk> <0dcc6180-d716-a5f8-9720-068ea6a70ca5@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 12:33 AM, zap wrote: > Are the shakti processors arm based for the architecture or some new > architecture or a different one. They are risc-v based From vkontogpls at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 23:03:43 2017 From: vkontogpls at gmail.com (Bill Kontos) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 01:03:43 +0200 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:59 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > ok so the past couple of updates i sent out i mentioned that there's > no longer sufficient funds in the current campaign to further pay > accommodation or any other living expenses. thus it is *really > important* that i find sources of funds, immediately. beyond that, i > may have found something that's worth exploring that has the potential > to fund pretty much absolutely everything that we want to achieve, if > it is leveraged correctly. > > one of the options that i am exploring is bltclub. I got to be honest here, running out of funds in a crowdfunding campaign and looking to make it up via bitcoin does not make me feel very confident. I don't mean to rub it in your face and I'm sure you've explored this thoroughly, but you also did that with the campaign and yet you did run out of money because shit happens and crypto is too messed up right now. Besides the problem with bitcoin is that as of right now there are 200k pending transactions. So unless you can confirm from beforehand that you can pay a significant amount of the remaining expenses directly via bitcoin I don't think this idea even computes as turning it into fiat is slow and expensive in transaction fees. An idea of mine: this project is exactly what the government funding shakti hope for. Maybe ask madhu about potential government/uni funds. Pitch the crowdfunding campaign as the proving ground of the standard and hope for the best. Education is a good example. If it goes through you will probably get more money that you'd know what to do with in the context of the campaign, plus a nice trip to India. From wes.frazier at members.fsf.org Thu Dec 28 23:04:19 2017 From: wes.frazier at members.fsf.org (Wes Frazier) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 18:04:19 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: On 12/28/17 15:07, Mike Henry wrote: > I know you are in a desperate situation with lots of pressure, but if it sounds too good > to be true it probably is. I mostly just lurk on this mailing list, im a backer on the crowdsupply campaign. I am not an expert on bitcoin or any concurrency. I just wanted to chime in and assert I would be happy to back another crowdfunding campaign for additional funds to see this project succeed, and would feel better about such a thing over this bitcoin mlm based plan. - Wes From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 05:48:33 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 05:48:33 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 9:56 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:08 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: >> so, ahh i would say it's christmas come early but it really *is* christmas :) > >> unlike many people to whom i've pitched the idea of an entirely libre >> SoC, madhu instead responded, "ok sure, what would you like?". >> initially being rather confused by this positive response, i outlined >> this page http://rhombus-tech.net/riscv/shakti/m_class/ and slowly >> began asking more questions. >> > > Love it. One of the few times national interests happen to be the same > as those of the free world movement. Also amazing answer. If this goes > well it will go down in history as one of those famous conversations > in the early days of tech we read about. yehyeh! > So we have the chance to get a node ahead AND RISCv64 ? Awesome. frickin tell me about it. madhu's even been offered free access to ASIC design tools from various companies normally worth $80m. they've seen what his team did with PowerPC before they converted to RISC-V, so they know he's serious and represents the best opportunity to gain access to a MASSIVE billion+ people untapped market >> * finding the right team(s) of people with links to the free software >> community to target 3D, Video and so on. > > This is something that I don't get with the shakti project. How are > they planning to tackle the 2d/3d/vpu problem? that's where i need help, they're primarily focussed on the CPU part. madhu is so excited and fired up by the opportunity he's been given, and also he wants to push the technology his team is designing (for very good reasons, will explain later), that he's in danger of going down the "NIH" route. he *is* however keenly aware of things like the MIAOU project. so for my part i've tracked down the ORSOC Graphics Accelerator, a series of white papers by MIPS... *before* the dead-or-dying ImgTec took them offline - which describe how certain Vector and SIMD instructions (a 1/(x^2) instruction, and half-precision operations) and MMX instructions (bit-wise larrrge NAND/NOR zero detection) can *massively* improve plain mesa3d software operations. also on opencores there's a series of hard macros with basic video primitives, including cabac decode and many more: dropping lots and lots of those in will go a long *long* way towards being able to tackle 2D, 3D and a VPU. the key here though is: it is *really* necessary to find a full software team to get the userspace stuff done *at the same time* and on emulated FPGAs so that performance can be verified / estimated. > From my understanding > there aren't any libre designs available out of the box, cpu rendering > is expensive and wasteful, ordinarily, yes. however.... each shakti core only takes 0.12W. we can put 16 down and still meet a 2.5 watt budget. how d'ya like _them_ apples? :) > anything memory compression related is > patented wait.... are you telling me that RISC-V's memory / instruction compression is *patented*?? if so, by whom? > and pretty much required when talking about ddr and not gddr > and their page doesn't detail anything about that. yeah forget GDDR for now. there already exists a DDR3 controller design. the DDR *PHY* however madhu wants his team to tackle that, > Also external gpus > are out of the question for obvious reasons. not for the higher-end desktop / server class units but this is a SoC... so yeah. > >> now, it turns out that *IF* the processor is designed SUCH THAT it is >> desirable for use in the indian schools market - either as laptops, >> netbooks, tablets or desktop machines (laptops would be better), THEN >> it is a near-automatic process of getting to market, orders of 10 >> million units are not a problem. >> > > Sounds like magic to my ears. f****n'A that's an understatement :) > >> note that *this is exactly what the EOMA68 Libre Laptop Housing is >> for*, and would be an immediate base on which to get demo units in >> front of people, very very quickly (just have to take care of making >> an EOMA68-RISCV64 Card). >> > > Indeed, and it would mean you could consider getting molds done as > well instead of 3d printing the cases. ... easily justifiable >> so, any ideas, input etc. welcomed. > > Be wary of the 20nm node. From my experience phones of that generation > were the first to have overheating problems. Power leaking is very > high. I know there have been some new nodes at 20nm recently with > better characteristics though. rrriiight, ok that would explain > Also I'd like to see the faces of the RPi foundation if this comes > into fruition. 20nm vs 40nm all libre and mainline huge volumes and at > the same price ballpark as the RPi but without the cartel control they > enjoy. Good luck Luke, you really deserve this. thx... well... we all do. i'm just the messenger, i *really* need to find the right people. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 05:53:31 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 05:53:31 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] open risc v question: In-Reply-To: <0dcc6180-d716-a5f8-9720-068ea6a70ca5@posteo.de> References: <20171227142536.2dkp3dy26bywquyj@galactic.demon.co.uk> <0dcc6180-d716-a5f8-9720-068ea6a70ca5@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 10:33 PM, zap wrote: > Are the shakti processors arm based HELL no!!! why do you think they tried to bribe him to shut the project down!! oops did i mention that on a public mailing list? mwahahaa > for the architecture or some new > architecture or a different one. RISC-V. they are however doing it as a complete reimplementation, using a design system that's based on.... Haskell :) it's like myhdl.org (which is python) except it's Haskell -> Verilog. the advantage of that is that it's REALLY quick to write stuff in... and it has the advantage of being *formally mathematically provable*. unlike Chisel, which is what the rocket-chip is based on. also they're going for an 8 stage pipeline not 5, so the max speed is around 2.5ghz where rocket-chip gets around 1.5ghz in 40nm, http://bitbucket.org/casl > I believe you said the M class is supposed to be less than 1W. Which > sounds absolutely insane. Dunno how they will do that, but it looks > interesting especially considering the blazing speed it says on the charts. 120mW per core it's easily achievable. i mentioned that the EOMA68 power budget is 2.5 watts and madhu laughed: do the math, you can get 16 SMP cores into 2.5 watts :) l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 07:07:48 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:07:48 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Hrvoje Lasic wrote: > when you google genesis, one of first thing it pops up is scam alert. It is > well known fact. i have a friend who signed up for them a while ago... it's not. remember that there's a hell of a lot of reasons why various vested power interests want to see these new ways of (literally) making money be utterly discredited. however that he's actually receiving mining payouts from genesis mining does *not* make it a worthwhile thing to drop your money^H^H^H^H^Hbitcoin into. they take a fixed percentage, there's *absolutely no way* to verify who they are, there's no public listing of their pool stats... nothing. absolutely nothing by which you can prove OR DISPROVE one way or the other if they are legitimate OR indeed a scam. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 07:17:53 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:17:53 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > I got to be honest here, running out of funds in a crowdfunding > campaign and looking to make it up via bitcoin does not make me feel > very confident. luckily, aside from cashflow (which someone's offered to help with), as of yesterday that's gone, $200/day. first commission came in at 3am this morning, TW time. nit-picking: it's not bitcoin, it's bitcoin mining *commissions* that make up the vaaaast bulk here, and those are issued in USD not BTC. > I don't mean to rub it in your face and I'm sure > you've explored this thoroughly, but you also did that with the > campaign and yet you did run out of money because shit happens that, and because i knew that there was quite a lot of technical issues to be resolved (linux kernel stuff etc) the absolute last thing needed is to go "mainstream user", hence why i am very happy that the numbers are *only* 2500 backers, *only* 900 cards, *only* 450 microdesktop housings and *only* 120 PFY/PIY laptop housings. > and > crypto is too messed up right now. Besides the problem with bitcoin is > that as of right now there are 200k pending transactions. that's valuable information that i will need to know so as to be able to plan ahead, thank you. if you hear anything like that please do tell me straight away ok? > An idea of mine: this project is exactly what the government funding > shakti hope for. Maybe ask madhu about potential government/uni funds. yes... i will get a chance to talk to him about that in about a month's time when the team isn't focussing 100% on tape-out. > Pitch the crowdfunding campaign as the proving ground of the standard > and hope for the best. Education is a good example. If it goes through > you will probably get more money that you'd know what to do with in > the context of the campaign, plus a nice trip to India. :) madhu did explain that getting money out of india's bureaucratic government system is.... sloooooow in the extreme. their reaction time should, basically, not be relied on in any meaningful way. one of the things that i will need to do is think through with madhu *exactly* what kind of SoC the indian education sector would actually need. there's a professor who did a report (18 months ago?) he recommended 2gb RAM Intel Celeron laptops as being perfectly capable of running LibreOffice, Firefox etc. etc. so the EOMA68 laptop Housing with an EOMA68-RISCV64 processor with say 4GB of dual 32-bit LPDDR3 RAM ICs would be *perfect*. but... getting the indian *government* to pay that funding? yes..... but 18 months late. hence the focus on getting - FAST - the funds IN PLACE so that we don't HAVE to wait around. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 13:53:11 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 13:53:11 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > Ugh, did it again. Sorry. > > On 2017年12月28日 04:13, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> it's >> too close to the exploitation i've witnessed - and my friend has >> recently uncovered clear and blatant evidence of. mining however is >> *completely* different, not least because it, in no way, *actually* >> involves actual cash, and it is not directly related to "exchange >> rates" or the trading of currencies, at all. > > So, you're somehow ethically opposed to trading Bitcoin for money, and > yet not ethically opposed to trading it for goods? That doesn't make a > lick of sense, Luke. :) my understanding of money is different: i take the *intent* of the person into consideration, and i am generous with money - when i have it - to those people whose *intentions* i believe are worthwhile encouraging. so in the case of trading bitcoin, most of the *intentions* that people are have are for the purposes of explotation. blatant, outright insider trading and pump-and-dump tactics. there's *clubs* you can join where this is carried out. therefore, if you *trade* bitcoin, it's basically exploitation of somebody else's misfortune. therefore, i cannot and will not do it. > Money is just a representation of how many goods > and services you have produced for others. that's one interpretation, and it's one that serves many people extremely well. however... it misses something very very fundamental. > Economically, there is *no > difference* between giving someone Bitcoin for USD and giving someone > Bitcoin for food. ok... would you deal with a warlord or a mass murderer, trading them bitcoin for USD? would you give an embezzler bitcoin if they asked for it saying that they wanted it to pay for food? > You know what's unethical? Mining Bitcoin. Because as has already been > mentioned, mining Bitcoin uses a *ton* of energy, ok there's a few things here: (1) the reports on which the calculations were based have been shown to be flawed (2) bitclub run most of their kit out of rekyavijk, iceland, where they are currrently sinking geo-thermal vents to power turbines. also cooling is *LITERALLY* free. (3) there are instances of people coming up with extremely ingenious plans (one guy is recycling - burning - used car tyres) which otherwise would *never have been financially viable* so not only are the reports based on the wrong info, but bitclub *is* doing its best to reduce environmental impact, > and it doesn't > actually produce anything in the end. this is equally true of any currency. you can't eat it. the only exception to that was cocoa beans, which the Mayans used as currency. great if there was an economic bust as you could *literally* eat your money. other than that, to say "it doesn't actually produce anything" is to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of money. money is EMPOWERMENT. it is an ENABLER. > Isn't one of the main features of > EOMA68 being environmentally responsible? Well, using Bitcoin mining > (through a scheme like this, no less) to fund something that is supposed > to be environmentally responsible is the height of hypocrisy. not at all: quite the opposite. what do you imagine that i will be doing this? let's go back to Simon Sinek's Ted Talk, and ask "why how what" rather than "what how why". so let's ask the question: *why* do you think i am doing this? *why* am i leveraging this abbbsolutely ennormous financial opportunity? what would it empower me to do? maybe fund a truly ethical peer-to-peer distributed crypto-currency that's truly eco-conscious because it's *not* dependent on proof-of-work, perhaps? maybe make an ultra-low-power processor that is designed and optimised based around that very same crypto-currency? maybe fund every software libre project that i've ever promised that i would if i ever had the means to, over the past 20 years? take the eco-conscious technological plans that i have to the next level that they were *always intended to be*? ... or.... should i... *completely abandon* those plans, forget about them, maybe think of them as a pipe dream, *waiting* for someone to go, "uhhh that's all very well but you're never going to make it a reality, not now, not ever" should i leave our fate in the hands of google, microsoft, oracle, intel, ARM, facebook, and twitta and that FUCKER elon musk who you can TELL clearly, with all his hype and talk of going to Mars, you KNOW he's given up on Humanity? should i? i'm asking you - seriously - should i ignore this opportunity and everything it represents, with everything that you know about me and the promises and committments that i have made, and leave matters in the hands of those.... i don't even want to use any kinds of words to describe how angry and disgusted i am with how irresponsible they truly are, these... "leaders" of technology. > (And yes, > it would be funding EOMA68, regardless of whatever kind of weaseling you > might do to say it isn't. If you depend on it to work on EOMA68, it's > funding EOMA68.) yup. i have no problem with that. > Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an > option if you go through with this? i'm already going through with it - it was already in motion. ok, the answer's conditional. (1) if you're part of the 2nd batch you can at any time send crowdsupply your order number, cc me, and i'll authorise a refund. they have all the funds, stored in their bank account(s). also, you don't need to read further, below. (2) if you're part of the 1st batch, that's much more complex: as i've outlined many many times, the reputation of the factory is harmed if the suppliers do not get the orders that they've been promised; the factory workers are harmed because they don't the get jobs that they've been promised; it also does harm to the project if the funds are below the critical threshold (that they're already at) for buying components and much more. i therefore have to do an analysis to see if there is any harm that you intend to do to the project. it would help in my assessment if you make it absolutely clear if it is your intention to *actively* do harm to the project. so. if you are part of the first batch, do you intend to do *active* harm to this project if your request for a refund is not met; please kindly answer yes or no, if yes, please outline the extent of the damage that would be your intent to carry out, if any,, and i will be able to make a fully-informed assessment. sorry for being blunt, i feel it's best to be absolutely up-front about these things. l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 14:25:41 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:25:41 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-12-29 6:48 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 9:56 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: >> If this goes >> well it will go down in history as one of those famous conversations >> in the early days of tech we read about. > > yehyeh! I think so too. And India is very keen on becoming the next China/Taiwan/Etc. Which I think is a good thing. >> This is something that I don't get with the shakti project. How are >> they planning to tackle the 2d/3d/vpu problem? > > also on opencores there's a series of hard macros with basic video > primitives, including cabac decode and many more: dropping lots and > lots of those in will go a long *long* way towards being able to > tackle 2D, 3D and a VPU. > > the key here though is: it is *really* necessary to find a full > software team to get the userspace stuff done *at the same time* and > on emulated FPGAs so that performance can be verified / estimated. > > 2D: Skip. AMD and Vivante already do so, NVIDIA will too IIRC. The 2D accelerators were mostly for windowing systems now replaced by composting systems, including MS Windows, and other means, Androids SurfaceFlinger, etc. The missing functions are now done on 3D or CPU. VPU: That would require also licenses from the format owners. That's going to be difficult. And the new, open, video formats are not ready. Daala, Thor, NETVC, AV1. Something generic to offload parts of the decoding/encoding would be the best bet I guess. Avoids licenses, single format isolation. IIRC most codecs share techniques. I might be talking jibberisch, or it might be to impractical. 3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps those guys can be hired to refine their work? From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 14:37:38 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 14:37:38 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:25 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-12-29 6:48 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 9:56 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: >>> If this goes >>> well it will go down in history as one of those famous conversations >>> in the early days of tech we read about. >> >> yehyeh! > > I think so too. And India is very keen on becoming the next > China/Taiwan/Etc. Which I think is a good thing. hell yes. i was very surprised to find, here, that the prices in Shenzhen for commodity equipment are hardly any different from USA prices [EU different as the support of the socialist system aka "welfare state" is extremely burdensome and has to be paid for by vastly higher prices]. and the cost of living is... becoming higher than london. the hostel i stayed at was unusual, $5 / day to live in a 10-bed room and it was *full of chinese people*. > 2D: Skip. AMD and Vivante already do so, NVIDIA will too IIRC. The 2D > accelerators were mostly for windowing systems now replaced by > composting systems, including MS Windows, and other means, Androids > SurfaceFlinger, etc. The missing functions are now done on 3D or CPU. yyeah which i'm not keen on (critically relying on 3D) - that means you *have* to have OpenGL. plus if using ORSOC Graphics Accelerator it would actually be necessary to rip those features *out* of it. ORSOC GPU is smart, it has scalable vector font support, z-buffer support, 3D polygon display and much more. really cool. > VPU: That would require also licenses from the format owners. That's > going to be difficult. And the new, open, video formats are not ready. > Daala, Thor, NETVC, AV1. this is actually a really good case for using the primitives e.g. here *not* hard-coded engines: https://opencores.org/project,video_systems > Something generic to offload parts of the decoding/encoding would be > the best bet I guess. Avoids licenses, single format isolation. IIRC > most codecs share techniques. I might be talking jibberisch, or it > might be to impractical. no if you can do e.g. CABAC decode, or DCT, or Huffman encode.decode, you have the building blocks and things get really quick.... *without* running into patents. > 3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps > those guys can be hired to refine their work? can you point me towards it with some clues? l. From onpon4 at riseup.net Fri Dec 29 14:43:58 2017 From: onpon4 at riseup.net (Julie Marchant) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:43:58 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: On 2017年12月29日 08:53, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > (1) if you're part of the 2nd batch you can at any time send > crowdsupply your order number, cc me, and i'll authorise a refund. > they have all the funds, stored in their bank account(s). also, you > don't need to read further, below. > > (2) if you're part of the 1st batch, that's much more complex: as > i've outlined many many times, the reputation of the factory is harmed > if the suppliers do not get the orders that they've been promised; the > factory workers are harmed because they don't the get jobs that > they've been promised; it also does harm to the project if the funds > are below the critical threshold (that they're already at) for buying > components and much more. i therefore have to do an analysis to see > if there is any harm that you intend to do to the project. it would > help in my assessment if you make it absolutely clear if it is your > intention to *actively* do harm to the project. > > so. > > if you are part of the first batch, do you intend to do *active* harm > to this project if your request for a refund is not met; please kindly > answer yes or no, if yes, please outline the extent of the damage that > would be your intent to carry out, if any,, and i will be able to make > a fully-informed assessment. > > sorry for being blunt, i feel it's best to be absolutely up-front > about these things. I'm not familiar with the terms "first batch" and "second batch" as it pertains to this project. Which was the first and which was the second? -- Julie Marchant https://onpon4.github.io Protect your emails with GnuPG: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org From samhuntress at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 15:00:55 2017 From: samhuntress at gmail.com (Sam Huntress) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 10:00:55 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: We all seem to be talking past each other and I fear we may have some confusion about what a ponzi scheme actually is. In a ponzi scheme, money is taken from 'investors' under the false pretense (lie) that it will be used to fund operations with a positive return on investment when actually that money is just stashed and given back out to 'investors' as a fake 'return' on their 'investment'. This doesn't have to just be cash payouts, the con (remember, short for the -confidence- they are trying to steal from you) may include offices or turbines (or just pictures of these things) to make everything seem more legitimate. In this case, the investments they claim to be making are almost 100% traceable and provable. The Bitcoin ledger can be used to see which wallets all mined bitcoins have gone to and Bitclub can use standard public/private key signatures to verify that they own one or more of those wallets. If Bitclub cannot provide this verification then they may not be technically competent enough to make good investments. If Bitclub will not provide this verification then they are most likely lying to their investors. Given that they already have your money, the best thing to do is hope that whatever they are running (legitimate or not) holds up long enough for you to get back what you put in. On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 8:53 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > > Ugh, did it again. Sorry. > > > > On 2017年12月28日 04:13, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> it's > >> too close to the exploitation i've witnessed - and my friend has > >> recently uncovered clear and blatant evidence of. mining however is > >> *completely* different, not least because it, in no way, *actually* > >> involves actual cash, and it is not directly related to "exchange > >> rates" or the trading of currencies, at all. > > > > So, you're somehow ethically opposed to trading Bitcoin for money, and > > yet not ethically opposed to trading it for goods? That doesn't make a > > lick of sense, Luke. > > :) my understanding of money is different: i take the *intent* of > the person into consideration, and i am generous with money - when i > have it - to those people whose *intentions* i believe are worthwhile > encouraging. > > so in the case of trading bitcoin, most of the *intentions* that > people are have are for the purposes of explotation. blatant, > outright insider trading and pump-and-dump tactics. there's *clubs* > you can join where this is carried out. > > therefore, if you *trade* bitcoin, it's basically exploitation of > somebody else's misfortune. therefore, i cannot and will not do it. > > > > Money is just a representation of how many goods > > and services you have produced for others. > > that's one interpretation, and it's one that serves many people > extremely well. however... it misses something very very fundamental. > > > Economically, there is *no > > difference* between giving someone Bitcoin for USD and giving someone > > Bitcoin for food. > > ok... would you deal with a warlord or a mass murderer, trading them > bitcoin for USD? would you give an embezzler bitcoin if they asked > for it saying that they wanted it to pay for food? > > > You know what's unethical? Mining Bitcoin. Because as has already been > > mentioned, mining Bitcoin uses a *ton* of energy, > > ok there's a few things here: > > (1) the reports on which the calculations were based have been shown > to be flawed > > (2) bitclub run most of their kit out of rekyavijk, iceland, where > they are currrently sinking geo-thermal vents to power turbines. also > cooling is *LITERALLY* free. > > (3) there are instances of people coming up with extremely ingenious > plans (one guy is recycling - burning - used car tyres) which > otherwise would *never have been financially viable* > > so not only are the reports based on the wrong info, but bitclub *is* > doing its best to reduce environmental impact, > > > and it doesn't > > actually produce anything in the end. > > this is equally true of any currency. you can't eat it. the only > exception to that was cocoa beans, which the Mayans used as currency. > great if there was an economic bust as you could *literally* eat your > money. > > other than that, to say "it doesn't actually produce anything" is to > fundamentally misunderstand the nature of money. money is > EMPOWERMENT. it is an ENABLER. > > > > Isn't one of the main features of > > EOMA68 being environmentally responsible? Well, using Bitcoin mining > > (through a scheme like this, no less) to fund something that is supposed > > to be environmentally responsible is the height of hypocrisy. > > not at all: quite the opposite. what do you imagine that i will be > doing this? let's go back to Simon Sinek's Ted Talk, and ask "why how > what" rather than "what how why". > > so let's ask the question: *why* do you think i am doing this? *why* > am i leveraging this abbbsolutely ennormous financial opportunity? > > what would it empower me to do? maybe fund a truly ethical > peer-to-peer distributed crypto-currency that's truly eco-conscious > because it's *not* dependent on proof-of-work, perhaps? > > maybe make an ultra-low-power processor that is designed and > optimised based around that very same crypto-currency? > > maybe fund every software libre project that i've ever promised that > i would if i ever had the means to, over the past 20 years? > > take the eco-conscious technological plans that i have to the next > level that they were *always intended to be*? > > ... or.... > > should i... *completely abandon* those plans, forget about them, > maybe think of them as a pipe dream, *waiting* for someone to go, > "uhhh that's all very well but you're never going to make it a > reality, not now, not ever" > > should i leave our fate in the hands of google, microsoft, oracle, > intel, ARM, facebook, and twitta and that FUCKER elon musk who you can > TELL clearly, with all his hype and talk of going to Mars, you KNOW > he's given up on Humanity? > > should i? > > i'm asking you - seriously - should i ignore this opportunity and > everything it represents, with everything that you know about me and > the promises and committments that i have made, and leave matters in > the hands of those.... i don't even want to use any kinds of words to > describe how angry and disgusted i am with how irresponsible they > truly are, these... "leaders" of technology. > > > > (And yes, > > it would be funding EOMA68, regardless of whatever kind of weaseling you > > might do to say it isn't. If you depend on it to work on EOMA68, it's > > funding EOMA68.) > > yup. i have no problem with that. > > > Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an > > option if you go through with this? > > i'm already going through with it - it was already in motion. > > ok, the answer's conditional. > > (1) if you're part of the 2nd batch you can at any time send > crowdsupply your order number, cc me, and i'll authorise a refund. > they have all the funds, stored in their bank account(s). also, you > don't need to read further, below. > > (2) if you're part of the 1st batch, that's much more complex: as > i've outlined many many times, the reputation of the factory is harmed > if the suppliers do not get the orders that they've been promised; the > factory workers are harmed because they don't the get jobs that > they've been promised; it also does harm to the project if the funds > are below the critical threshold (that they're already at) for buying > components and much more. i therefore have to do an analysis to see > if there is any harm that you intend to do to the project. it would > help in my assessment if you make it absolutely clear if it is your > intention to *actively* do harm to the project. > > so. > > if you are part of the first batch, do you intend to do *active* harm > to this project if your request for a refund is not met; please kindly > answer yes or no, if yes, please outline the extent of the damage that > would be your intent to carry out, if any,, and i will be able to make > a fully-informed assessment. > > sorry for being blunt, i feel it's best to be absolutely up-front > about these things. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From mike.valk at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 15:21:09 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:21:09 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-12-29 15:37 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > > On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:25 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: > >> 3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps >> those guys can be hired to refine their work? > > can you point me towards it with some clues? > I can't seem to find it at the moment. Did find this: https://github.com/VerticalResearchGroup/miaow/wiki https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki/Similar-Projects Might as well be the Nyuzi one From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 15:23:35 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:23:35 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:43 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > I'm not familiar with the terms "first batch" and "second batch" as it > pertains to this project. Which was the first and which was the second? the first batch was the first crowd-funded campaign: august 2016. after that, crowdsupply effectively turned the site into a "pre-order shop". none of the money from this SECOND batch has left crowdsupply's bank account. for the first batch, $175k, $25k appx is held by crowdsupply because they'll be handling world-wide shipping. $130k of the $175k went to thinkpenguin. $60k of that $130k immediately went to the factory in china. $25k is left in thinkpenguin's bank account, to deal with the laptops when we get to it. $45k of the $60k is left in mike's bank account in china and that is ENTIRELY taken up with components and PCBs for the EOMA68-A20 2.7.5 and Microdesktop 1.7. so if you're in the first batch there *is* nothing spare to refund *to* anyone. hence the question is absolutely critical because attempting to pull out money which doesn't exist and/or has been allocated for some considerable time does a LOT of damage. but, the 2nd batch? not a problem at all. l. From mike.valk at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 15:24:02 2017 From: mike.valk at gmail.com (mike.valk at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:24:02 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-12-29 16:21 GMT+01:00 mike.valk at gmail.com : > 2017-12-29 15:37 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> >> On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:25 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> 3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps >>> those guys can be hired to refine their work? >> >> can you point me towards it with some clues? >> > I can't seem to find it at the moment. AH it was the ORGFX now ORSOC I guess https://opencores.org/project,orsoc_graphics_accelerator From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 15:34:20 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:34:20 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Sam Huntress wrote: > We all seem to be talking past each other and I fear we may have some > confusion about what a ponzi scheme actually is. > > In a ponzi scheme, money is taken from 'investors' under the false pretense > (lie) that it will be used to fund operations with a positive return on > investment when actually that money is just stashed and given back out to > 'investors' as a fake 'return' on their 'investment'. ... down the tree until it collapses, yes. apart from the US Federal Reserve Ponzi scheme that was cascade-created in 2007 by issuing UNREGULATED bonds a THOUSAND times larger than the entire U.S. Govt regulated market at the time and so consequently it is still in the process of collapsing, what's the largest ponzi scheme that's ever been recorded in human history? in that historically-recorded ponzi scheme, what order of magnitude of money changed hands? (ignoring the multi multi trillion dollar 2007 US Fed Res ponzi scheme) > In this case, the investments they claim to be making are almost 100% > traceable and provable. The Bitcoin ledger can be used to see which wallets > all mined bitcoins have gone to and Bitclub can use standard public/private > key signatures to verify that they own one or more of those wallets. you mean, starting e.g. from here: https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats and here: https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork > If Bitclub cannot provide this verification then they may not be > technically competent enough to make good investments. > Given that they already have your money, the best thing to do is hope that > whatever they are running (legitimate or not) holds up long enough for you > to get back what you put in. sam you underestimate the scope of what i seek to achieve here. i'm looking to leverage this so that the team of engineers can be paid for to design the RISCV-64 SoC, the eco-conscious smartphone can be paid for, and in about a year to 18 months time a foundry line of chips can be paid for - outright. i'm certainl not "looking to get back $3500" that's for sure! and *i* am not *personally* looking to get back money beyond that which is sufficient to live on: i am looking to leverage this to fund some absolutely amazing... ... AND ECO-CONSCIOUS .... ... projects. including REPLACING bitcoin. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 15:35:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:35:07 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 3:24 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-12-29 16:21 GMT+01:00 mike.valk at gmail.com : >> 2017-12-29 15:37 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:25 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>>> 3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps >>>> those guys can be hired to refine their work? >>> >>> can you point me towards it with some clues? >>> >> I can't seem to find it at the moment. > > AH it was the ORGFX now ORSOC I guess > https://opencores.org/project,orsoc_graphics_accelerator yeah that's the one i found, too. that's the one - one of the ones - i want to fund. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 15:37:40 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:37:40 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 3:21 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-12-29 15:37 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> >> On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:25 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> 3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps >>> those guys can be hired to refine their work? >> >> can you point me towards it with some clues? >> > I can't seem to find it at the moment. > > Did find this: > > https://github.com/VerticalResearchGroup/miaow/wiki > https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki > https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki/Similar-Projects > > Might as well be the Nyuzi one ah yehhh! thank you for reminding me! yeah i forgot about his work, thank you. i know why i forgot it: i spoke to its developer, he said there's some severe limitations... something about how it was put together, it was never really intended to go above.... 50mhz (in an FPGA) or... something. there was a fundamental design flaw in other words. might have changed since then. but i went, "hmm, MIAOU shader engine plus ORSOC_GPU plus RISC-V core would do *really* well" l. From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Fri Dec 29 16:07:03 2017 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:07:03 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: After recently learning how bitcoin network fees and shot up to £70 min! I asked for alts and was recommended to use dash. https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20171227.034339.c3c3053f.en.html From samhuntress at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 16:13:10 2017 From: samhuntress at gmail.com (Sam Huntress) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:13:10 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: > you mean, starting e.g. from here: > https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats > and here: > https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork Yes, exactly. The blocks they are mining are being awarded to https://blockchain.info/address/155fzsEBHy9Ri2bMQ8uuuR3tv1YzcDywd4 And blockchain.info does record those blocks as being found by Bitclub. So Bitclub does seem to have significant new BTC coming in. As long as you trust that whoever you sent money to does actually represent Bitclub, further verification does not seem necessary. I do understand that $3500 isn't exactly backbreaking for this project, it just makes me anxious to see anyone start buying in so fully to things that seem 'too-good-to-be-true' On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Sam Huntress > wrote: > > We all seem to be talking past each other and I fear we may have some > > confusion about what a ponzi scheme actually is. > > > > In a ponzi scheme, money is taken from 'investors' under the false > pretense > > (lie) that it will be used to fund operations with a positive return on > > investment when actually that money is just stashed and given back out to > > 'investors' as a fake 'return' on their 'investment'. > > ... down the tree until it collapses, yes. > > apart from the US Federal Reserve Ponzi scheme that was > cascade-created in 2007 by issuing UNREGULATED bonds a THOUSAND times > larger than the entire U.S. Govt regulated market at the time and so > consequently it is still in the process of collapsing, what's the > largest ponzi scheme that's ever been recorded in human history? > > in that historically-recorded ponzi scheme, what order of magnitude > of money changed hands? (ignoring the multi multi trillion dollar 2007 > US Fed Res ponzi scheme) > > > > In this case, the investments they claim to be making are almost 100% > > traceable and provable. The Bitcoin ledger can be used to see which > wallets > > all mined bitcoins have gone to and Bitclub can use standard > public/private > > key signatures to verify that they own one or more of those wallets. > > you mean, starting e.g. from here: > https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats > and here: > https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork > > > > If Bitclub cannot provide this verification then they may not be > > technically competent enough to make good investments. > > > > Given that they already have your money, the best thing to do is hope > that > > whatever they are running (legitimate or not) holds up long enough for > you > > to get back what you put in. > > sam you underestimate the scope of what i seek to achieve here. i'm > looking to leverage this so that the team of engineers can be paid for > to design the RISCV-64 SoC, the eco-conscious smartphone can be paid > for, and in about a year to 18 months time a foundry line of chips can > be paid for - outright. > > i'm certainl not "looking to get back $3500" that's for sure! and > *i* am not *personally* looking to get back money beyond that which is > sufficient to live on: i am looking to leverage this to fund some > absolutely amazing... > > ... AND ECO-CONSCIOUS .... > > ... projects. > > including REPLACING bitcoin. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 16:14:55 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:14:55 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: oh! alexander. yeah. you! i'm happy to pay your membership, you've been extraordinarily helpful.... and persistent :) l. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Alexander Ross wrote: > After recently learning how bitcoin network fees and shot up to £70 min! > I asked for alts and was recommended to use dash. > > > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20171227.034339.c3c3053f.en.html > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 16:21:15 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:21:15 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Sam Huntress wrote: >> you mean, starting e.g. from here: >> https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats >> and here: >> https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork > > Yes, exactly. > > The blocks they are mining are being awarded to > https://blockchain.info/address/155fzsEBHy9Ri2bMQ8uuuR3tv1YzcDywd4 > And blockchain.info does record those blocks as being found by Bitclub. So > Bitclub does seem to have significant new BTC coming in. cool. can you tell if it matches with the hash rate on the pool? > As long as you trust that whoever you sent money to does actually represent > Bitclub, further verification does not seem necessary. i can now confirm that they're paying out both mining and also commission. the first lot was only USD $14 which is extraordinarily low... but it's the first day and they *might* be taking the time of day when i signed up into account. > I do understand that $3500 isn't exactly backbreaking for this project, it > just makes me anxious to see anyone start buying in so fully to things that > seem 'too-good-to-be-true' it actually took me a while - i just didn't mention it until the 30 days on commissioning equipment was nearly up. also i'm unusual in both understanding MLMs (good and bad) *and* bitcoin mining. l. From saitdude at hotmail.com Fri Dec 29 18:07:56 2017 From: saitdude at hotmail.com (Joseph Lira) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 18:07:56 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Luke just a little confused, are you saying if im from the first batch i wont get an eoma68 this June/July 2018? ________________________________ From: arm-netbook on behalf of arm-netbook-request at lists.phcomp.co.uk Sent: December 29, 2017 4:13:18 PM To: arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk Subject: arm-netbook Digest, Vol 89, Issue 31 Send arm-netbook mailing list submissions to arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to arm-netbook-request at lists.phcomp.co.uk You can reach the person managing the list at arm-netbook-owner at lists.phcomp.co.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of arm-netbook digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC (mike.valk at gmail.com) 2. Re: EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) 3. Re: Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC (mike.valk at gmail.com) 4. Re: EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) 5. Re: Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) 6. Re: Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) 7. Re: EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing (Alexander Ross) 8. Re: EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing (Sam Huntress) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:21:09 +0100 From: "mike.valk at gmail.com" To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 2017-12-29 15:37 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : > > On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:25 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com > wrote: > >> 3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps >> those guys can be hired to refine their work? > > can you point me towards it with some clues? > I can't seem to find it at the moment. Did find this: https://github.com/VerticalResearchGroup/miaow/wiki https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki/Similar-Projects Might as well be the Nyuzi one ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:23:35 +0000 From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:43 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > I'm not familiar with the terms "first batch" and "second batch" as it > pertains to this project. Which was the first and which was the second? the first batch was the first crowd-funded campaign: august 2016. after that, crowdsupply effectively turned the site into a "pre-order shop". none of the money from this SECOND batch has left crowdsupply's bank account. for the first batch, $175k, $25k appx is held by crowdsupply because they'll be handling world-wide shipping. $130k of the $175k went to thinkpenguin. $60k of that $130k immediately went to the factory in china. $25k is left in thinkpenguin's bank account, to deal with the laptops when we get to it. $45k of the $60k is left in mike's bank account in china and that is ENTIRELY taken up with components and PCBs for the EOMA68-A20 2.7.5 and Microdesktop 1.7. so if you're in the first batch there *is* nothing spare to refund *to* anyone. hence the question is absolutely critical because attempting to pull out money which doesn't exist and/or has been allocated for some considerable time does a LOT of damage. but, the 2nd batch? not a problem at all. l. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:24:02 +0100 From: "mike.valk at gmail.com" To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 2017-12-29 16:21 GMT+01:00 mike.valk at gmail.com : > 2017-12-29 15:37 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> >> On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:25 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> 3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps >>> those guys can be hired to refine their work? >> >> can you point me towards it with some clues? >> > I can't seem to find it at the moment. AH it was the ORGFX now ORSOC I guess https://opencores.org/project,orsoc_graphics_accelerator ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:34:20 +0000 From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Sam Huntress wrote: > We all seem to be talking past each other and I fear we may have some > confusion about what a ponzi scheme actually is. > > In a ponzi scheme, money is taken from 'investors' under the false pretense > (lie) that it will be used to fund operations with a positive return on > investment when actually that money is just stashed and given back out to > 'investors' as a fake 'return' on their 'investment'. ... down the tree until it collapses, yes. apart from the US Federal Reserve Ponzi scheme that was cascade-created in 2007 by issuing UNREGULATED bonds a THOUSAND times larger than the entire U.S. Govt regulated market at the time and so consequently it is still in the process of collapsing, what's the largest ponzi scheme that's ever been recorded in human history? in that historically-recorded ponzi scheme, what order of magnitude of money changed hands? (ignoring the multi multi trillion dollar 2007 US Fed Res ponzi scheme) > In this case, the investments they claim to be making are almost 100% > traceable and provable. The Bitcoin ledger can be used to see which wallets > all mined bitcoins have gone to and Bitclub can use standard public/private > key signatures to verify that they own one or more of those wallets. you mean, starting e.g. from here: https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats and here: https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork > If Bitclub cannot provide this verification then they may not be > technically competent enough to make good investments. > Given that they already have your money, the best thing to do is hope that > whatever they are running (legitimate or not) holds up long enough for you > to get back what you put in. sam you underestimate the scope of what i seek to achieve here. i'm looking to leverage this so that the team of engineers can be paid for to design the RISCV-64 SoC, the eco-conscious smartphone can be paid for, and in about a year to 18 months time a foundry line of chips can be paid for - outright. i'm certainl not "looking to get back $3500" that's for sure! and *i* am not *personally* looking to get back money beyond that which is sufficient to live on: i am looking to leverage this to fund some absolutely amazing... ... AND ECO-CONSCIOUS .... ... projects. including REPLACING bitcoin. l. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:35:07 +0000 From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 3:24 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-12-29 16:21 GMT+01:00 mike.valk at gmail.com : >> 2017-12-29 15:37 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:25 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>>> 3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps >>>> those guys can be hired to refine their work? >>> >>> can you point me towards it with some clues? >>> >> I can't seem to find it at the moment. > > AH it was the ORGFX now ORSOC I guess > https://opencores.org/project,orsoc_graphics_accelerator yeah that's the one i found, too. that's the one - one of the ones - i want to fund. l. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:37:40 +0000 From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 3:21 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-12-29 15:37 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> >> On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:25 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> 3D. Wasn't there a PoC from some students in the open macro's? Perhaps >>> those guys can be hired to refine their work? >> >> can you point me towards it with some clues? >> > I can't seem to find it at the moment. > > Did find this: > > https://github.com/VerticalResearchGroup/miaow/wiki > https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki > https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki/Similar-Projects > > Might as well be the Nyuzi one ah yehhh! thank you for reminding me! yeah i forgot about his work, thank you. i know why i forgot it: i spoke to its developer, he said there's some severe limitations... something about how it was put together, it was never really intended to go above.... 50mhz (in an FPGA) or... something. there was a fundamental design flaw in other words. might have changed since then. but i went, "hmm, MIAOU shader engine plus ORSOC_GPU plus RISC-V core would do *really* well" l. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:07:03 +0000 From: Alexander Ross To: Linux on small ARM machines Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 After recently learning how bitcoin network fees and shot up to £70 min! I asked for alts and was recommended to use dash. https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20171227.034339.c3c3053f.en.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:13:10 -0500 From: Sam Huntress To: Eco-Conscious Computing Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > you mean, starting e.g. from here: > https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats > and here: > https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork Yes, exactly. The blocks they are mining are being awarded to https://blockchain.info/address/155fzsEBHy9Ri2bMQ8uuuR3tv1YzcDywd4 And blockchain.info does record those blocks as being found by Bitclub. So Bitclub does seem to have significant new BTC coming in. As long as you trust that whoever you sent money to does actually represent Bitclub, further verification does not seem necessary. I do understand that $3500 isn't exactly backbreaking for this project, it just makes me anxious to see anyone start buying in so fully to things that seem 'too-good-to-be-true' On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Sam Huntress > wrote: > > We all seem to be talking past each other and I fear we may have some > > confusion about what a ponzi scheme actually is. > > > > In a ponzi scheme, money is taken from 'investors' under the false > pretense > > (lie) that it will be used to fund operations with a positive return on > > investment when actually that money is just stashed and given back out to > > 'investors' as a fake 'return' on their 'investment'. > > ... down the tree until it collapses, yes. > > apart from the US Federal Reserve Ponzi scheme that was > cascade-created in 2007 by issuing UNREGULATED bonds a THOUSAND times > larger than the entire U.S. Govt regulated market at the time and so > consequently it is still in the process of collapsing, what's the > largest ponzi scheme that's ever been recorded in human history? > > in that historically-recorded ponzi scheme, what order of magnitude > of money changed hands? (ignoring the multi multi trillion dollar 2007 > US Fed Res ponzi scheme) > > > > In this case, the investments they claim to be making are almost 100% > > traceable and provable. The Bitcoin ledger can be used to see which > wallets > > all mined bitcoins have gone to and Bitclub can use standard > public/private > > key signatures to verify that they own one or more of those wallets. > > you mean, starting e.g. from here: > https://bitclubpool.com/index.php?p=stats > and here: > https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/bitclubnetwork > > > > If Bitclub cannot provide this verification then they may not be > > technically competent enough to make good investments. > > > > Given that they already have your money, the best thing to do is hope > that > > whatever they are running (legitimate or not) holds up long enough for > you > > to get back what you put in. > > sam you underestimate the scope of what i seek to achieve here. i'm > looking to leverage this so that the team of engineers can be paid for > to design the RISCV-64 SoC, the eco-conscious smartphone can be paid > for, and in about a year to 18 months time a foundry line of chips can > be paid for - outright. > > i'm certainl not "looking to get back $3500" that's for sure! and > *i* am not *personally* looking to get back money beyond that which is > sufficient to live on: i am looking to leverage this to fund some > absolutely amazing... > > ... AND ECO-CONSCIOUS .... > > ... projects. > > including REPLACING bitcoin. > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook ------------------------------ End of arm-netbook Digest, Vol 89, Issue 31 ******************************************* From calmstorm at posteo.de Fri Dec 29 18:28:47 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 13:28:47 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] open risc v question: In-Reply-To: References: <20171227142536.2dkp3dy26bywquyj@galactic.demon.co.uk> <0dcc6180-d716-a5f8-9720-068ea6a70ca5@posteo.de> Message-ID: On 12/29/2017 12:53 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 10:33 PM, zap wrote: >> Are the shakti processors arm based > HELL no!!! why do you think they tried to bribe him to shut the > project down!! oops did i mention that on a public mailing list? > mwahahaa Interesting, never knew that. and yeah, probably not the best idea but meh... > >> for the architecture or some new >> architecture or a different one. > RISC-V. they are however doing it as a complete reimplementation, > using a design system that's based on.... Haskell :) it's like > myhdl.org (which is python) except it's Haskell -> Verilog. the > advantage of that is that it's REALLY quick to write stuff in... and > it has the advantage of being *formally mathematically provable*. > unlike Chisel, which is what the rocket-chip is based on. > > also they're going for an 8 stage pipeline not 5, so the max speed is > around 2.5ghz where rocket-chip gets around 1.5ghz in 40nm, > > http://bitbucket.org/casl > Risc-V hmm... interesting. I know arm is based off of a Risc chip so that's why I wondered... Any idea when these processors will be sold? >> I believe you said the M class is supposed to be less than 1W. Which >> sounds absolutely insane. Dunno how they will do that, but it looks >> interesting especially considering the blazing speed it says on the charts. > 120mW per core it's easily achievable. i mentioned that the EOMA68 > power budget is 2.5 watts and madhu laughed: do the math, you can get > 16 SMP cores into 2.5 watts :) Wow... that's freakin awesome.  Any idea when such a processor will be implemented into the eoma68 standard? > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 18:44:29 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 18:44:29 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Joseph Lira wrote: > Luke just a little confused, are you saying if im from the > first batch i wont get an eoma68 this June/July 2018? eoma68 is a standard, you can see it on elinux.org :) you mean a physical item, in this case an eoma68-a20 computer card, answer is: probably yes. now that the review's nearly done and *assuming* it works we go with it (otherwise we go with 2.7.4 which also works... just minus the HDMI interface), it should be february by the time the 2.7.5 samples are done, march by the time 1,000 sets of components are ordered, may-june by the time a batch of 1,000 PCBs come in, june-july-august by the time they're assembled, tested, and start getting shipped to the USA distribution hub (crowdsupply), july-august-september by the time they start going out to actual people. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 18:47:07 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 18:47:07 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] open risc v question: In-Reply-To: References: <20171227142536.2dkp3dy26bywquyj@galactic.demon.co.uk> <0dcc6180-d716-a5f8-9720-068ea6a70ca5@posteo.de> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 6:28 PM, zap wrote: > Risc-V hmm... interesting. I know arm is based off of a Risc chip so > that's why I wondered... yehyeh. no RISC just means "reduced instruction set". like "drink" can describe anything from alcohol to water to coffee... MIPS is a RISC core. ARC is a RISC core. ARM is a RISC core. ARM is a RISC core. etc. etc. >> power budget is 2.5 watts and madhu laughed: do the math, you can get >> 16 SMP cores into 2.5 watts :) > Wow... that's freakin awesome. Any idea when such a processor will be > implemented into the eoma68 standard? if standard chip design is anything to go by... probably 18 months. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Fri Dec 29 18:57:31 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 13:57:31 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] open risc v question: In-Reply-To: References: <20171227142536.2dkp3dy26bywquyj@galactic.demon.co.uk> <0dcc6180-d716-a5f8-9720-068ea6a70ca5@posteo.de> Message-ID: <6ad869fe-e3ca-1787-4af1-d97a64099c49@posteo.de> >>> power budget is 2.5 watts and madhu laughed: do the math, you can get >>> 16 SMP cores into 2.5 watts :) >> Wow... that's freakin awesome. Any idea when such a processor will be >> implemented into the eoma68 standard? > if standard chip design is anything to go by... probably 18 months. I wonder how long it has been being developed though so far. :) > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Fri Dec 29 19:22:16 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 19:22:16 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] open risc v question: In-Reply-To: <6ad869fe-e3ca-1787-4af1-d97a64099c49@posteo.de> References: <20171227142536.2dkp3dy26bywquyj@galactic.demon.co.uk> <0dcc6180-d716-a5f8-9720-068ea6a70ca5@posteo.de> <6ad869fe-e3ca-1787-4af1-d97a64099c49@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 6:57 PM, zap wrote: >>> Wow... that's freakin awesome. Any idea when such a processor will be >>> implemented into the eoma68 standard? >> if standard chip design is anything to go by... probably 18 months. > I wonder how long it has been being developed though so far. :) dunno. they're using something similar to Chisel except where chisel is written in java, bluespec (or whatever) is written in Haskell. apparently it's possible to write a processor core in about 6 weeks flat with it... and the advantages are, you can do formal mathematical proofs on it.... *because it's Haskell*. outputs Verilog or VHDL i forget which. anyway, the integration is where it's going to get complicated. making sure the interfaces work, and pre-writing linux kernel drivers to run on FPGAs *before* committing to silicon and so on. we _will_ have access - free - to the university's 180nm fab, which is a bit... high power and very slow these days but at least it *might* be useful to at least prove things like e.g. sd/mmc work and so on. l. From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me Fri Dec 29 19:33:15 2017 From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander Ross) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 19:33:15 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: On 29/12/17 16:14, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > oh! alexander. yeah. you! i'm happy to pay your membership, you've > been extraordinarily helpful.... and persistent :) oh thx. I’ll pm ya. From manuel.montezelo at gmail.com Sat Dec 30 03:19:37 2017 From: manuel.montezelo at gmail.com (Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 04:19:37 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ethics, eco-conscious, and treating your backers with respect In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: <20171230031937.GA8635@reva.itsari.org> 2017-12-29 14:53 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton: >--- >crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >[...] > >On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: >> Ugh, did it again. Sorry. >> >> On 2017年12月28日 04:13, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >>> it's >>> too close to the exploitation i've witnessed - and my friend has >>> recently uncovered clear and blatant evidence of. mining however is >>> *completely* different, not least because it, in no way, *actually* >>> involves actual cash, and it is not directly related to "exchange >>> rates" or the trading of currencies, at all. >> >> So, you're somehow ethically opposed to trading Bitcoin for money, and >> yet not ethically opposed to trading it for goods? That doesn't make a >> lick of sense, Luke. +1 to Julie, and to the other people who expressed doubts about the wisdom to go down this path. If anything, the whole coin-mining rush and the resources devoted to it (not only computational, also human resources and the amount of press/attention that is given to it) compared to many of the other world problems, look to me anything but sensible, and much less "eco-conscious" or "ethical". So I am not going to start arguing about this, I hope to not reply to any other email in the thread, but just to express that I also feel that this new adventure is quite far from the general idea of the EOMA (which I backed as part of the campaign and also a few years before that), and the campaign, which I contributed to echo in many places while it ran, which now I kind of regret after the latest developments. >> Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an >> option if you go through with this? > [...] > i'm already going through with it - it was already in motion. > > ok, the answer's conditional. > > (1) if you're part of the 2nd batch you can at any time send >crowdsupply your order number, cc me, and i'll authorise a refund. >they have all the funds, stored in their bank account(s). also, you >don't need to read further, below. > > (2) if you're part of the 1st batch, that's much more complex: as >i've outlined many many times, the reputation of the factory is harmed >if the suppliers do not get the orders that they've been promised; the >factory workers are harmed because they don't the get jobs that >they've been promised; it also does harm to the project if the funds >are below the critical threshold (that they're already at) for buying >components and much more. i therefore have to do an analysis to see >if there is any harm that you intend to do to the project. it would >help in my assessment if you make it absolutely clear if it is your >intention to *actively* do harm to the project. I find that the language that you use is completely inappropriate to treat backers of the idea. Julie and others, including me, *do not actively intend to harm the EOMA project*. They, or we, just don't feel comfortable with the turn of the story that you are going to make, or just made, so they lost confidence that it's a project worth backing. At most we want to *actively* remove us from the equation, not *actively* harm EOMA. It's you who is *actively* changing the rules and making EOMA conditional on coin-mining operations rather than rethink the project and deliver less than promised, or do it in a different way, or run another campaign. These suggestions were given by people in this thread, perhaps not the best, perhaps not enough, but that's what many people in the "EOMA community" expressed. If you disregard these opinions, well, it's you who is going to be the only actor *actively* harming or *boosting* the project, whatever end result is going to be. It's maybe nobody's fault that things went this way, but in any case, it's not Julie's fault in any way what happend so far and that the money is insufficient now, so treating backers in this appalling way is not OK. > if you are part of the first batch, do you intend to do *active* harm >to this project if your request for a refund is not met; please kindly >answer yes or no, if yes, please outline the extent of the damage that >would be your intent to carry out, if any,, and i will be able to make >a fully-informed assessment. If you go down this path, not only linking EOMA to the success of a coin-mining operation, but blaming people who backed and trusted you, I don't think that Julie is the only person who is going to ask for a refund. > sorry for being blunt, i feel it's best to be absolutely up-front >about these things. Ditto. -- Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 30 07:05:08 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 07:05:08 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: rrrright, i've got enough information from the payouts and commissions to be able to reverse-engineer their operation with a reasonable degree of confidence. key mistake: i initially *misinterpreted* the MLM commissions structure as paying out $200/day *guaranteed*. what they *actually* do is, for each person who also buys a share, they distribute a percentage of that *upstream* to the previous backers. from the mining generated, and taking e.g. AntMiner S9 as a "baseline" i was able to calculate that the ratio of "equipment purchased that's definitely yours" to "money that's put towards rewarding people who encourage other people to buy equipment but also covering operational costs etc. etc." is around 62:38 give-or-take several percentage points... i'm really fuzzy on this maths stuff, that was last night, i'm now coming up with 25:75.... *sigh* someone please double-check this!! the figures went like this: * $3500 is a full share. * daily mining payout is around $13/day @ current exchange rates and difficulty * Antminer S9s cost around $2500 (if you can get them) and @ 13TH/s earns about USD $26/day * scale that up to $3500 and it's $37/day for an antminer-s9-scaled-up's-worth so 37 + 13 = 50. 13 / 50 = a 26 : 74 ratio. which seems to be awfully low, i must have made a mistake somewhere. so this percentage (of what each person puts into equipment) which goes up-tree in commission would explain how they can stay afloat [AND NOT BE A PONZI SCHEME]. if someone can check the maths that would be great. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 30 08:20:13 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 08:20:13 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ethics, eco-conscious, and treating your backers with respect In-Reply-To: <20171230031937.GA8635@reva.itsari.org> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> <20171230031937.GA8635@reva.itsari.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo wrote: > 2017-12-29 14:53 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton: > +1 to Julie, and to the other people who expressed doubts about the > wisdom to go down this path. the decision was already made. and couldn't really be properly assessed without having the information of someone *who* had made the decision to invest. i've now _got_ that information and it's nowhere near as good an opportunity as i initially thought... but i have enough to know that it is NOT a ponzi scheme. > If anything, the whole coin-mining rush and the resources devoted to it > (not only computational, also human resources and the amount of > press/attention that is given to it) compared to many of the other world > problems, look to me anything but sensible, and much less > "eco-conscious" or "ethical". dude: it's the first time in human history where third parties are neither required for contracts to be ATOMICALLY binding. i'm not sure if you grasp the full significance of that. prior to blockchain and hashgraph and so on the only way to guarantee that a contract was honoured is to (a) trust each party in the contract and (b) if there is a dispute trust a THIRD PARTY. entire power structures have built up over millenia based around that and THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THE POWER TO NEGOTIATE CONTRACTS IS TRULY DECENTRALISED. i... i can't... i can't emphasise enough how mind-bogglingly significant that truly is for the whole of humanity. > So I am not going to start arguing about this, I hope to not reply to > any other email in the thread, but just to express that I also feel that > this new adventure is quite far from the general idea of the EOMA (which > I backed as part of the campaign and also a few years before that), and > the campaign, which I contributed to echo in many places while it ran, > which now I kind of regret after the latest developments. there is nothing that i can say here. as in, i am not permitted, under my own ethical operating framework, to say anything that would interfere with your right to make assessments and conclusions for yourself. >> (2) if you're part of the 1st batch, that's much more complex: as >> i've outlined many many times, the reputation of the factory is harmed >> if the suppliers do not get the orders that they've been promised; the >> factory workers are harmed because they don't the get jobs that >> they've been promised; it also does harm to the project if the funds >> are below the critical threshold (that they're already at) for buying >> components and much more. i therefore have to do an analysis to see >> if there is any harm that you intend to do to the project. it would >> help in my assessment if you make it absolutely clear if it is your >> intention to *actively* do harm to the project. > > > I find that the language that you use is completely inappropriate to > treat backers of the idea. ok, let's look first at the facts, then we go over them, then you can let me know how i *should* have presented it, so that i can learn how to make it clear. but in doing so i am going to ask you one very simple thing: that you accept the facts AS the facts, ok? the facts are that removing money from the first batch *actively* does harm. i'll go over them again below. > Julie and others, including me, *do not actively intend to harm the EOMA > project*. They, or we, just don't feel comfortable with the turn of the > story that you are going to make, or just made, so they lost confidence > that it's a project worth backing. At most we want to *actively* remove > us from the equation, not *actively* harm EOMA. unfortunately, it does *active* harm if the money from the first batch is removed. i have made this clear a number of times. * the amount of money available is only sufficient to pay components, shipping etc. (i.e. not living expenses) * therefore if an amount is SUBTRACTED from that total, it must, logically, mean that the total number of units manufactured is REDUCED * in many cases i have ALREADY PURCHASED COMPONENTS. 1500 JAE DC3 connectors. 2000 PCMCIA cases. 2000 PCMCIA sockets * if i talk to the factory and say "i'm sorry, the numbers to be manufactured are now 800 not 1000" their reaction will be as follows: (1) they will never trust me to place an order with them ever again (2) as a knock-on effect all the contracts that THEY have arranged will also have to be re-negotiated (to LOWER values) (3) the factory's reputation with those suppliers will be IRREPARABLY HARMED as a result (4) the workers on the factory's assembly line will also be harmed. > It's you who is *actively* changing the rules of course! i'll change anything that's needed - without sacrificing any of the underlying ethical principles - trying and testing out absolutely anything that stands a chance of working towards the goal. that's *how* you succeed. again, can i refer to Simon Sinek's talk and invite you to go back, fundamentally, to the WHY. please answer for me: WHY do you think am i doing what i am doing? i do mean, actually answer that question as best you can. don't treat it as "rhetorical" in any way. > and making EOMA > conditional on coin-mining operations rather than rethink the project > and deliver less than promised, or do it in a different way, or run > another campaign. i have been talking in ... have you been *reading* the updates at all over the past year??? fer fuck's sake manuel i've been planning *multiple* avenues here! *including* already delivering less! *including* planning multiple campaigns! > These suggestions were given by people in this thread, perhaps not the > best, perhaps not enough, but that's what many people in the "EOMA > community" expressed. If you disregard these opinions, well, it's you > who is going to be the only actor *actively* harming or *boosting* the > project, whatever end result is going to be. pretty much every single update, i clearly state, "this project succeeds or fails based on your feedback and support". if you come back to the "WHY" as Simon Sinek advises that everyone first and foremost do, and you BELIEVE in that "WHY", then it is ALL our responsibility to keep an eye on the project and to give feedback. i think you are losing sight of that... and also forgetting that the BTC i mined over 5 years ago - using MY personal money WELL before this Crowdfunding campaign started - was put in 32 days ago. > It's maybe nobody's fault that things went this way, but in any case, > it's not Julie's fault in any way what happend so far and that the money > is insufficient now, so treating backers in this appalling way is not > OK. tell me: what is "appalling" about describing - truthfully - the direct consequences of removing money from the first batch? > >> if you are part of the first batch, do you intend to do *active* harm >> to this project if your request for a refund is not met; please kindly >> answer yes or no, if yes, please outline the extent of the damage that >> would be your intent to carry out, if any,, and i will be able to make >> a fully-informed assessment. > > > If you go down this path, not only linking EOMA to the success of a > coin-mining operation, but blaming people who backed and trusted you, I > don't think that Julie is the only person who is going to ask for a > refund. i'm not quotes linking EOMA to the success of a coin mining operation quotes jaezuss, manuel, where did you get the impression that i'm that fucking stupid _come_ on man. i *don't have* full-time jobs like everyone else in the techie field, i'm too much of a threat to companies for them to employ me. and, not to mention, there's the fact that if i *have* a full-time job i CAN'T FOCUS ON THIS TASK. wake up for goodness sake, people. i've been trying for EIGHTEEN YEARS to gain full financial independence so that i can focus a hundred percent on ethical business and people KEEP FUCKING TAKING ADVANTAGE OF MY GENEROSITY. hearing how jeremy allison managed to get his *brother* in on that VA Linux IPO when he'd *ASSUMED* that the founders would have contacted me... the list of times where people have either blatantly exploited my work for significant personal financial gain or blatant outright embezzled it in one case... i won't go into details because it would shock you too much. so i'm going to ask you a very, very direct question: do you want me to give up? do you want me to quit? go back to the UK and get some fucking stupid job in walmart or tesco's? because i can do that if you prefer. or do you want me to continue to try to succeed at the goals i've set? > >> sorry for being blunt, i feel it's best to be absolutely up-front >> about these things. > > > Ditto. _great_! genuinely and absolutely honestly _great_. that way, misunderstandings get cleared up. l. From calmstorm at posteo.de Sat Dec 30 09:46:12 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 04:46:12 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ethics, eco-conscious, and treating your backers with respect In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> <20171230031937.GA8635@reva.itsari.org> Message-ID: <0236af98-b7fd-a7bc-6d86-c297e3f6385d@posteo.de> >>> if you are part of the first batch, do you intend to do *active* harm >>> to this project if your request for a refund is not met; please kindly >>> answer yes or no, if yes, please outline the extent of the damage that >>> would be your intent to carry out, if any,, and i will be able to make >>> a fully-informed assessment. >> >> If you go down this path, not only linking EOMA to the success of a >> coin-mining operation, but blaming people who backed and trusted you, I >> don't think that Julie is the only person who is going to ask for a >> refund. > i'm not quotes linking EOMA to the success of a coin mining operation > quotes jaezuss, manuel, where did you get the impression that i'm that > fucking stupid _come_ on man. > > i *don't have* full-time jobs like everyone else in the techie field, > i'm too much of a threat to companies for them to employ me. and, not > to mention, there's the fact that if i *have* a full-time job i CAN'T > FOCUS ON THIS TASK. > > wake up for goodness sake, people. i've been trying for EIGHTEEN > YEARS to gain full financial independence so that i can focus a > hundred percent on ethical business and people KEEP FUCKING TAKING > ADVANTAGE OF MY GENEROSITY. Hey Luke, I know this may sound hard for you, but don't let that get you down.  You are doing a good service by making the eoma68 standard and even more so putting actions behind your words. Most people don't even try to walk the walk. I am glad you are doing your best to try. > > hearing how jeremy allison managed to get his *brother* in on that VA > Linux IPO when he'd *ASSUMED* that the founders would have contacted > me... the list of times where people have either blatantly exploited > my work for significant personal financial gain or blatant outright > embezzled it in one case... i won't go into details because it would > shock you too much. > > so i'm going to ask you a very, very direct question: do you want me > to give up? do you want me to quit? go back to the UK and get some > fucking stupid job in walmart or tesco's? because i can do that if > you prefer. > > or do you want me to continue to try to succeed at the goals i've set? > Keep on trying to succeed man, I wish you the best Luke.  Truly, I thank you from the bottom of my heart.  Don't let life get you down. :) > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 30 09:49:50 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 09:49:50 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] HDMI High-Frequency Layout: Recommendations--Taper In-Reply-To: References: <6A65EECD-D935-4BBA-B83C-42704C1051C9@gmail.com> <6C61086D-6BEA-47D1-B2FD-3F91F94B0591@gmail.com> <98EDE830-70C2-44AB-8DF6-FDA4FDE82CBF@gmail.com> <6EC93879-90EC-414B-A7C3-04674CFBB3E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: ok so i've passed richard the gerber files for a review, and i've done the replacement of all 10uF 0805 capacitors with twin 4.7uF 0603. full details outlined in a new update, which will likely be out next year. i'm now in to "examining gerbers closely" mode which usually takes me 2-3 days, i go over them dozens of times, looking for things like "GND VIAs that have been removed by PADS" and "tracks that aren't separated by GND when they were previously" and "power lines and power planes that might not hold enough current" and so on. it needs to be done several times as there's so much detail it's easy to miss things. then when both richard and i are happy it'll go off to mike for him to order, that'll take about.... 3-6 weeks. there will be NO rushing here, they tend to screw it up. another set of 10 components will need to be ordered, and we get to make 10 more 2.7.5 PCBs. this time the assembly will be .... complicated by the fact that we need to try out 1666mhz and 1800mhz DDR3 RAM ICs (which will be run at only 375mhz), because the 1033mhz DDR3 RAM is getting F*****G expensive, it's hit the tail-end of its lifecycle. i might also have to ask him to track down some 1GB (4x 256mb) RAM ICs as a "just in case" as well. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 30 09:52:26 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 09:52:26 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ethics, eco-conscious, and treating your backers with respect In-Reply-To: <0236af98-b7fd-a7bc-6d86-c297e3f6385d@posteo.de> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> <20171230031937.GA8635@reva.itsari.org> <0236af98-b7fd-a7bc-6d86-c297e3f6385d@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 9:46 AM, zap wrote: > Hey Luke, I know this may sound hard for you, but don't let that get you > down. yehh, i realised a long time ago it would just cause too much distress to do that. > You are doing a good service by making the eoma68 standard and > even more so putting actions behind your words. Most people don't even > try to walk the walk. I am glad you are doing your best to try. thx zap. >> or do you want me to continue to try to succeed at the goals i've set? >> > Keep on trying to succeed man, I wish you the best Luke. i will... as long as it useful to do so. i know not to pursue a goal that's no longer actually relevant, no matter how long you've been at it :) > Truly, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. that's really appreciated. > Don't let life get you down. :) :) From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat Dec 30 10:01:29 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 05:01:29 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Linux on small ARM machines Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 09:59:04 +0000 On the current pc card situation I have some remarks. Primarily directed at other pc card supporters. I got the pc card after making some assessments. Did I believe it was a scam, no. Did I believe the pc card had a chance of getting made, yes. Did I believe the pc card enterprise could shipwreck, yes. If so I decided lkcl would not hear a word for it from me. Of course I only made such decision because to me the pc card's price is negligible. If beneficial to lkcl, he can erase me from the shipping list and no refund. I ask others to do the same. I think lkcl has done more than one can expect. He likely has gathered experiences and knowledge about libre hardware, he can use moving forward. If lkcl can contribute to the riscv development, he rather should do that, than potter on an arm cpu, none of us like. What I want to avoid is, that lkcl on economic reasons gets discouraged and jammed. I know the following is not achievable. I say it anyway. One option is, lkcl sets a monthly required amount of money for the next 6 months. I am prepared to pay lkcl 5usd a month. But only if I know lkcl gets the required sum every month. 5Usd is cheap, I know. If you want to pay more do it. To me this matter is another prove of libre software people not being streamlined. Libre software people are up against companies like intel and amd. Libre software people cannot expect to achieve results if the matter is not better organized. Among libre software people there should be a system of fellowships enabling persons to work on free software. No it does not have to be lkcl. But such system should be created. How should it be founded? > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com Sat Dec 30 18:35:37 2017 From: mikejackofalltrades at gmail.com (Mike Henry) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 11:35:37 -0700 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://liberapay.com/ is a great platform for what you propose, Luke should make an account. On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 3:01 AM, wrote: > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces at lists.phcomp.co.uk > To: Linux on small ARM machines > Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing > Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 09:59:04 +0000 > > On the current pc card situation I have some remarks. > Primarily directed at other pc card supporters. > I got the pc card after making some assessments. > Did I believe it was a scam, no. Did I believe the pc card > had a chance of getting made, yes. Did I believe > the pc card enterprise could shipwreck, yes. If so I > decided lkcl would not hear a word for it from me. > Of course I only made such decision because to > me the pc card's price is negligible. > If beneficial to lkcl, he can erase me from the > shipping list and no refund. I ask others to do the same. > I think lkcl has done more than one can expect. He > likely has gathered experiences and > knowledge about libre hardware, he > can use moving forward. > If lkcl can contribute to the riscv development, > he rather should do that, than potter > on an arm cpu, none of us like. > What I want to avoid is, that lkcl on > economic reasons gets discouraged and jammed. > > I know the following is not achievable. I say it anyway. > One option is, lkcl sets a monthly required amount of > money for the next 6 months. I am prepared to pay > lkcl 5usd a month. But only if I know lkcl gets the > required sum every month. 5Usd is cheap, I > know. If you want to pay more do it. > > To me this matter is another prove of libre software > people not being streamlined. Libre software > people are up against companies like intel and > amd. Libre software people cannot expect to > achieve results if the matter is not better organized. > Among libre software people there should be a > system of fellowships enabling persons to work > on free software. No it does not have to > be lkcl. But such system should be created. > How should it be founded? > > >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From calmstorm at posteo.de Sat Dec 30 18:41:41 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 13:41:41 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/30/2017 01:35 PM, Mike Henry wrote: > https://liberapay.com/ is a great platform for what you propose, Luke > should make an account. > > On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 3:01 AM, wrote: > I know I am guilty of this as well, but Luke is going to say, don't top post.  and yes, liberapay.com is a good idea rather than bitcoin. :) From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 30 19:04:35 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 19:04:35 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Mike Henry wrote: > https://liberapay.com/ is a great platform for what you propose, Luke > should make an account. got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/ From calmstorm at posteo.de Sat Dec 30 19:08:48 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 14:08:48 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/30/2017 02:04 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Mike Henry > wrote: >> https://liberapay.com/ is a great platform for what you propose, Luke >> should make an account. > got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/ Smart decision  > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From calmstorm at posteo.de Sat Dec 30 19:12:18 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 14:12:18 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ac3effd-4f43-1ece-7122-7a6372128a91@posteo.de> On 12/30/2017 02:04 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Mike Henry > wrote: >> https://liberapay.com/ is a great platform for what you propose, Luke >> should make an account. > got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/ When I get a chance I will send you some money. Just need to get my paychecks after holiday. :0 > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Sat Dec 30 19:34:37 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 19:34:37 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <3ac3effd-4f43-1ece-7122-7a6372128a91@posteo.de> References: <3ac3effd-4f43-1ece-7122-7a6372128a91@posteo.de> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 7:12 PM, zap wrote: >> got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/ > > When I get a chance I will send you some money. Just need to get my > paychecks after holiday. :0 :) thx zap From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat Dec 30 20:45:26 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:45:26 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing Message-ID: Displaying a form of payment is not good enough. Lkcl should make a website. It should show which amount of money he wants monthly and how much people have paid a given month. It should list several forms of payments. Including paypal. I am not going to register about a new service in order to get to pay. As long as lkcl gets the monthly amount he is asking for, I will pay for the next month. One month lkcl does not get the amount he asks for, I stop my payments. Lkcl not getting the amount he is asking for, tell me people are not interested in paying more in order to get their items. Then I say lkcl should stop production of the pc card, no refunds and negotiate a solution regarding those who wanted a laptop. > > got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/ > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From calmstorm at posteo.de Sat Dec 30 21:32:35 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:32:35 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9546309e-11e7-3d6c-713b-ee6d35ba18b3@posteo.de> On 12/30/2017 03:45 PM, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > Displaying a form of payment is not good enough. Lkcl should > make a website. It should show which amount of money he > wants monthly and how much people have paid a given > month. > It should list several forms of payments. Including paypal. I > am not going to register about a new service in order to get > to pay. > As long as lkcl gets the monthly amount he is asking for, > I will pay for the next month. One month lkcl does not get > the amount he asks for, I stop my payments. > Lkcl not getting the amount he is asking for, tell me > people are not interested in paying more in order to get their > items. Then I say lkcl should stop production of the > pc card, no refunds and negotiate a solution regarding > those who wanted a laptop. I do agree that would be nice, but I don't want to see anyone or myself put crap on his shoulders anymore than they have already... No offense... but your idea might being going too far.  I don't know what Luke thinks, but I am sure he will tell us soon. >> got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From calmstorm at posteo.de Sat Dec 30 21:35:39 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:35:39 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <9546309e-11e7-3d6c-713b-ee6d35ba18b3@posteo.de> References: <9546309e-11e7-3d6c-713b-ee6d35ba18b3@posteo.de> Message-ID: On 12/30/2017 04:32 PM, zap wrote: > > On 12/30/2017 03:45 PM, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: >> Displaying a form of payment is not good enough. Lkcl should >> make a website. It should show which amount of money he >> wants monthly and how much people have paid a given >> month. >> It should list several forms of payments. Including paypal. I >> am not going to register about a new service in order to get >> to pay. >> As long as lkcl gets the monthly amount he is asking for, >> I will pay for the next month. One month lkcl does not get >> the amount he asks for, I stop my payments. >> Lkcl not getting the amount he is asking for, tell me >> people are not interested in paying more in order to get their >> items. Then I say lkcl should stop production of the >> pc card, no refunds and negotiate a solution regarding >> those who wanted a laptop. > I do agree that would be nice, but I don't want to see anyone or myself > put crap on his shoulders anymore than they have already... > > No offense... but your idea might being going too far.  I don't know > what Luke thinks, but I am sure he will tell us soon. > > >>> got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/ Oh, ps I recommend you make clear on that page what organization you are, etc, >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >>> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >>> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk >> _______________________________________________ >> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk >> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook >> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From pablo at parobalth.org Sat Dec 30 21:45:50 2017 From: pablo at parobalth.org (Pablo Rath) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 22:45:50 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171230214550.nxyvpekoih2b7f5r@cherry> On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 07:04:35PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/ I am going to send you some money for the next 9 months (at least). I registered an account at liberapay and started the process to transfer money to my account. I think it will take a couple of business days till you can see it on your account. kind regards Pablo From ronwirring at Safe-mail.net Sat Dec 30 22:33:46 2017 From: ronwirring at Safe-mail.net (ronwirring at Safe-mail.net) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 17:33:46 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] ccc make your own cpu Message-ID: https://youtu.be/JlshnJjsw8E?t=2185 From penyuanhsing at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 00:04:54 2017 From: penyuanhsing at gmail.com (Pen-Yuan Hsing) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 00:04:54 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7294dc22-6ee6-fe4d-54d9-d9c2f1212a62@gmail.com> On 30/12/17 20:45, ronwirring at Safe-mail.net wrote: > Displaying a form of payment is not good enough. Lkcl should > make a website. It should show which amount of money he > wants monthly and how much people have paid a given > month. > It should list several forms of payments. Including paypal. I > am not going to register about a new service in order to get > to pay. > As long as lkcl gets the monthly amount he is asking for, > I will pay for the next month. One month lkcl does not get > the amount he asks for, I stop my payments. > Lkcl not getting the amount he is asking for, tell me > people are not interested in paying more in order to get their > items. Then I say lkcl should stop production of the > pc card, no refunds and negotiate a solution regarding > those who wanted a laptop. > >> >> got one https://liberapay.com/~27466/widgets/ Sorry if this has been discussed before, but Luke have you investigated [snowdrift.coop](https://snowdrift.coop/) and [Open Collective](https://opencollective.com/)? I know snowdrift.coop hasn't fully launched yet, but can this project be one of its "launch partners"? From silverskullpsu at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 05:07:27 2017 From: silverskullpsu at gmail.com (Jonathan Frederickson) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 00:07:27 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ethics, eco-conscious, and treating your backers with respect In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> <20171230031937.GA8635@reva.itsari.org> Message-ID: > dude: it's the first time in human history where third parties are > neither required for contracts to be ATOMICALLY binding. i'm not sure > if you grasp the full significance of that. > > prior to blockchain and hashgraph and so on the only way to guarantee > that a contract was honoured is to (a) trust each party in the > contract and (b) if there is a dispute trust a THIRD PARTY. > > entire power structures have built up over millenia based around that > and THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THE POWER TO NEGOTIATE CONTRACTS IS TRULY > DECENTRALISED. Well, sort of. The actual exchange of currency doesn't involve a third party, and in the case of e.g. Ethereum there's a lot of interesting stuff you can do within the network. But for most real-world contracts you need information from outside the network about whether one party actually fulfilled its obligations, and then you're back to the messy realities of human trust. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 31 05:39:33 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 05:39:33 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ethics, eco-conscious, and treating your backers with respect In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> <20171230031937.GA8635@reva.itsari.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 5:07 AM, Jonathan Frederickson wrote: >> entire power structures have built up over millenia based around that >> and THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THE POWER TO NEGOTIATE CONTRACTS IS TRULY >> DECENTRALISED. > > Well, sort of. The actual exchange of currency doesn't involve a third > party, and in the case of e.g. Ethereum there's a lot of interesting > stuff you can do within the network. But for most real-world contracts > you need information from outside the network about whether one party > actually fulfilled its obligations, and then you're back to the messy > realities of human trust. eeexactly. whereas with blockchain and hashgraph that trust is a mathematical inviolate (cryptographical level of) certainty. i may have assumed above that you would realise the significance of what an an "atomic transaction" means in relation to contracts. it means that a public declaration of a contract becomes atomic - indivisible - i.e. absolute and inviolate.... WITH NO THIRD PARTY AND REQUIRING NO THIRD PARTY DISPUTE ARBITRATION. to a mathematically cryptographical level the contract IS absolute and inviolate. for LITERALLY the first time in human history. is that clear? it means we - humanity - can be free to make our own contracts with other people, at our *own* responsibility, not that of a government or a judge or a lawyer or *anyone* else but the person with whom we are dealing. directly. the number of people who truly grasp the significance of that is... honestly... really quite small. l. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 31 05:41:24 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 05:41:24 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ethics, eco-conscious, and treating your backers with respect In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> <20171230031937.GA8635@reva.itsari.org> Message-ID: https://news.slashdot.org/story/17/12/30/1949248/could-we-reduce-data-breaches-with-better-open-source-funding#comments From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 31 05:41:38 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 05:41:38 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ethics, eco-conscious, and treating your backers with respect In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> <20171230031937.GA8635@reva.itsari.org> Message-ID: https://developers.slashdot.org/story/17/12/30/1715210/blockchain-brings-business-boom-to-ibm-oracle-and-microsoft#comments From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 31 05:55:54 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 05:55:54 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <7294dc22-6ee6-fe4d-54d9-d9c2f1212a62@gmail.com> References: <7294dc22-6ee6-fe4d-54d9-d9c2f1212a62@gmail.com> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 12:04 AM, Pen-Yuan Hsing wrote: > Sorry if this has been discussed before, but Luke have you investigated > [snowdrift.coop](https://snowdrift.coop/) and [Open > Collective](https://opencollective.com/)? > > I know snowdrift.coop hasn't fully launched yet, but can this project be one > of its "launch partners"? great idea. joined and bookmarked snowdrift. requires and critically depends on the use of a proprietary non-free service: https://opencollective.com/signin?next=/opensource/apply From silverskullpsu at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 06:18:06 2017 From: silverskullpsu at gmail.com (Jonathan Frederickson) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 01:18:06 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ethics, eco-conscious, and treating your backers with respect In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> <20171230031937.GA8635@reva.itsari.org> Message-ID: > whereas with blockchain and hashgraph that trust is a mathematical > inviolate (cryptographical level of) certainty. Sure, assuming every aspect of that contract can be expressed on the blockchain. Financial transactions with cryptocurrencies can be (I'll sell you this ERC20 token for this much ETH, if and only if enough people pledge), but I'm still skeptical that such contracts will be very useful outside of a few narrowly defined niches. A smart contract for preordering a new device, for example, has no idea whether the devices have been shipped, whether they were lost in transit, etc. The moment you involve humans (which is almost always necessary), you're back to needing dispute arbitration. A mathematically inviolable contract does you little good when a key part of the contract as seen by one of the parties (i.e. actually receiving the thing) can't be expressed as part of it. From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 31 07:27:04 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 07:27:04 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Ethics, eco-conscious, and treating your backers with respect In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> <20171230031937.GA8635@reva.itsari.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 6:18 AM, Jonathan Frederickson wrote: >> whereas with blockchain and hashgraph that trust is a mathematical >> inviolate (cryptographical level of) certainty. > > Sure, assuming every aspect of that contract can be expressed on the > blockchain. Financial transactions with cryptocurrencies can be (I'll > sell you this ERC20 token for this much ETH, if and only if enough > people pledge), but I'm still skeptical that such contracts will be > very useful outside of a few narrowly defined niches. it's early days yet. cryptokitties is an actual first real-world effort to create something that isn't "trading or mining or speculation". this video is both extremely funny, informative and insightful at the same time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu8X0aZhDpA > A smart contract for preordering a new device, for example, has no > idea whether the devices have been shipped, whether they were lost in > transit, etc. The moment you involve humans (which is almost always > necessary), you're back to needing dispute arbitration. A > mathematically inviolable contract does you little good when a key > part of the contract as seen by one of the parties (i.e. actually > receiving the thing) can't be expressed as part of it. yehyeh. but... let's think it through. there's a couple of scenarios (1) one of the uses is: insurance. insurance companies are now investigating blockchain for declaring and underwriting insurance. what do you think would happen if an *insurance* company decided, affer making a publicly declared inviolate contract with someone, "oh we don't want to actually pay out, it's just a mathematical note, we didn't really actually truly mean it"? the consequences of disregarding a [physical] violation / dishonouring of a publicly-notarised atomic contract is actually much more serious than it first seems. (2) numerically-expressible contracts such as "subtract this number and add it to this other number" this is basically the whole basis of crypto-currencies (except ethereum). the transaction is done and inviolate and there *is* no backing out. the "number" is transferred (added) to your "balance sheet", and that "balance sheet" propagates forward within the network. the number [the "value" of the crypto-currency] *has forward continuity*. further atomic transactions empower further atomic transactions empower further atomic transactions.... you never *actually* escape from the inviolate nature of the atomic-contract-public-ledger-system. thus, for *this* scenario, the objection that "human dispute arbitration" is needed simply does not apply. (3) computationally-expressible contracts such as ethereum this is where it gets *really* interesting as e.g. cryptokitties demonstrates (which, btw, has caused a major meltdown of ethereum as it's sucking up THIRTY PERCENT of the ENTIRE ethereum network resources). whilst you _can_ actually replicate the contract system (cryptokitties unfortunately have not published the FULL genetic algorithm / contract) it is clear that the cryptokitties site is - as things stand - entirely set up to be the "enabler". it is NOT however the "arbitrator". the ETHEREUM NETWORK is the "arbitrator and prover that you bought, sold or birthed a kittie". it is just unfortunate that the relevant algorithms have not been made public so it is not possible to create your own kitties... you *can* i believe however independently *buy and sell* them using a replica of the buy and sell algorithms... i'd like to see someone do that. regardless: this is just another specialisation and extension of the extreme degenerate case, "subtract this number and add it to this other number", such that *as long as* you remain *within* the cryptokitties "system", All Is Well. (4) static contract / document storage including describing arbitration procedures (potentially in computational form) this is a proposed "hybrid" system which would be REALLY interesting, and is a general form of (1) and (3) that i've been thinking about for some time. so where there is an actual cross-over into the real world, it's the ethereum-style (computation style) contracts that get particularly interesting, and even more so when you have machine-readable documents (think "Microsoft Access Forms"). in effect, this moves our dependence on individual computers over to DISTRIBUTED networks, exactly as the microsoft millenium research group envisaged about 20 years ago and used DCOM as the basis to do it. so overall i believe you're missing the fact that it's only because *right now* we still use "individual" computers (or MIS-place our trust in other PEOPLE's computers), but imagine what would happen if ethereum's computation system BECAME THE DEFAULT FOR ALL COMPUTING ALGORITHM EXECUTION WORLD-WIDE OVERNIGHT. that we *haven't* moved to that model - world-wide - is the reason why i believe that what you say, "we need to fall back on human-powered dispute arbitration" is true... *at the moment*. l. From rekado at elephly.net Sun Dec 31 10:06:18 2017 From: rekado at elephly.net (Ricardo Wurmus) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 11:06:18 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> Message-ID: <87r2rb9pph.fsf@elephly.net> Hi Luke, Julie Marchant writes: > You know what's unethical? Mining Bitcoin. Because as has already been > mentioned, mining Bitcoin uses a *ton* of energy, and it doesn't > actually produce anything in the end. Isn't one of the main features of > EOMA68 being environmentally responsible? Well, using Bitcoin mining > (through a scheme like this, no less) to fund something that is supposed > to be environmentally responsible is the height of hypocrisy. (And yes, > it would be funding EOMA68, regardless of whatever kind of weaseling you > might do to say it isn't. If you depend on it to work on EOMA68, it's > funding EOMA68.) > > Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an > option if you go through with this? I’m quoting this, because I very much agree with Julie and others who oppose Bitcoin. Whatever perceived advantages Bitcoin may seem to provide, I oppose it for a number of reasons, and I’d be very unhappy and disappointed if you went along with this plan. (There’s no need to insult us by insisting that we simply don’t get the advantages of Bitcoin.) -- Ricardo GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC https://elephly.net From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 31 10:17:40 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 10:17:40 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: <87r2rb9pph.fsf@elephly.net> References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> <87r2rb9pph.fsf@elephly.net> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 10:06 AM, Ricardo Wurmus wrote: > Hi Luke, >> Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an >> option if you go through with this? > > I’m quoting this, because I very much agree with Julie and others who > oppose Bitcoin. ricardo: it's a little late... and also no longer relevant. it's too late because i had *already* - 34 days ago - used personal bitcoin mined over five years ago that has absolutely no connection WHATSOEVER to the EOMA68 project's (cash, USD/RMB) funds, and second it's no longer relevant because it's been established that it's a long-term investment not an "immediate financing of this and all possible projects we ever wanted to be funded" opportunity. so your opposition is noted, respected... and at the same time can be disregarded. l. From raphael.melotte at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 16:40:54 2017 From: raphael.melotte at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?UmFwaGHDq2wgTcOpbG90dGU=?=) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 17:40:54 +0100 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-12-30 11:01 GMT+01:00 : > > One option is, lkcl sets a monthly required amount of > money for the next 6 months. I am prepared to pay > lkcl 5usd a month. > Great idea ! 5USD per month is also all I can afford for now, but on the other hand if half of the backers could afford it that would be ~5000USD per month ! I never used Liberapay before, but it seems interesting, I'm signing up now. Thanks to who mentioned it From desttinghimgame at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 19:21:39 2017 From: desttinghimgame at gmail.com (Louis Pearson) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 13:21:39 -0600 Subject: [Arm-netbook] Libre RISC-V RV64GC SoC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 29, 2017 8:39 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" wrote: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:25 PM, mike.valk at gmail.com wrote: > 2017-12-29 6:48 GMT+01:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton : >> On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 9:56 PM, Bill Kontos wrote: > 2D: Skip. AMD and Vivante already do so, NVIDIA will too IIRC. The 2D > accelerators were mostly for windowing systems now replaced by > composting systems, including MS Windows, and other means, Androids > SurfaceFlinger, etc. The missing functions are now done on 3D or CPU. yyeah which i'm not keen on (critically relying on 3D) - that means you *have* to have OpenGL. plus if using ORSOC Graphics Accelerator it would actually be necessary to rip those features *out* of it. ORSOC GPU is smart, it has scalable vector font support, z-buffer support, 3D polygon display and much more. really cool. Don't know if opengl is a hard dependency now that vulkan is out there. From calmstorm at posteo.de Sun Dec 31 20:31:53 2017 From: calmstorm at posteo.de (zap) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 15:31:53 -0500 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> <87r2rb9pph.fsf@elephly.net> Message-ID: On 12/31/2017 05:17 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 10:06 AM, Ricardo Wurmus wrote: >> Hi Luke, > >>> Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an >>> option if you go through with this? >> I’m quoting this, because I very much agree with Julie and others who >> oppose Bitcoin. > ricardo: it's a little late... and also no longer relevant. it's too > late because i had *already* - 34 days ago - used personal bitcoin > mined over five years ago that has absolutely no connection WHATSOEVER > to the EOMA68 project's (cash, USD/RMB) funds, and second it's no > longer relevant because it's been established that it's a long-term > investment not an "immediate financing of this and all possible > projects we ever wanted to be funded" opportunity. > > so your opposition is noted, respected... and at the same time can be > disregarded. I must admit, I would not trust bitcoin either, but if you think its a good idea to use, that's your prerogative. I just think you should use liberapay for the majority of your donations.  and avoid bitcoin when possible.  But since you have already have an account, I just ask you to be careful. It may not be very stable.  > > l. > > _______________________________________________ > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook > Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk From lkcl at lkcl.net Sun Dec 31 23:37:46 2017 From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 23:37:46 +0000 Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 / Libre RISC-V team financing In-Reply-To: References: <87shbwifcg.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi63s0hg.fsf@whist.hands.com> <287f0486-e220-e57e-dc85-1d3970ad4ffe@riseup.net> <87r2rb9pph.fsf@elephly.net> Message-ID: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 8:31 PM, zap wrote: > > > On 12/31/2017 05:17 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> --- >> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 10:06 AM, Ricardo Wurmus wrote: >>> Hi Luke, >> >>>> Just one question: is canceling support for the CrowdSupply campaign an >>>> option if you go through with this? >>> I’m quoting this, because I very much agree with Julie and others who >>> oppose Bitcoin. >> ricardo: it's a little late... and also no longer relevant. it's too >> late because i had *already* - 34 days ago - used personal bitcoin >> mined over five years ago that has absolutely no connection WHATSOEVER >> to the EOMA68 project's (cash, USD/RMB) funds, and second it's no >> longer relevant because it's been established that it's a long-term >> investment not an "immediate financing of this and all possible >> projects we ever wanted to be funded" opportunity. >> >> so your opposition is noted, respected... and at the same time can be >> disregarded. > > I must admit, I would not trust bitcoin either, but if you think its a > good idea to use, that's your prerogative. I just think you should use > liberapay for the majority of your donations. and avoid bitcoin when > possible. the other difference here is - was (before i had enough information to be able to ascertain that it was not feasible to do so): * when i believed that bitclub was a high-exponential curve payout *I* intended *TO FUND* software libre projects with it * now that i *KNOW* that bitclub is a LONG TERM investment, i am back - once again - to being DEPENDENT on donations and sponsorship and, once a fucking gain getting money from contract work and/or having to consider enslavement i mean employment which i know that people will say "you're wasting your time, you're a threat to our jobs". door number one: financially independent and able to fund all projects i ever wanted to fund door number two: not financially independent and back to having to listen to people telling me i'm being a fucking idiot and incapable of making decisions. l.