From lkcl at lkcl.net  Mon Feb  1 14:14:56 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 14:14:56 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem report
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwXfd321kzbavOxjAVMTpgWs1x9tN-m5jyQdhassVjzsw@mail.gmail.com>

http://rhombus-tech.net/articles/fosdem2016/

awesome.  i'm completely out of steam now, happily relaxing at the
2go4 hostel, going ice-skating this evening and back in den haag
tomorrow :)

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


From paul at boddie.org.uk  Mon Feb  1 15:56:28 2016
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 16:56:28 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem report
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwXfd321kzbavOxjAVMTpgWs1x9tN-m5jyQdhassVjzsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwXfd321kzbavOxjAVMTpgWs1x9tN-m5jyQdhassVjzsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201602011656.30143.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Monday 1. February 2016 15.14.56 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> http://rhombus-tech.net/articles/fosdem2016/
> 
> awesome.  i'm completely out of steam now, happily relaxing at the
> 2go4 hostel, going ice-skating this evening and back in den haag
> tomorrow :)

Nice report and a nice experience, it would seem! Hopefully, a lot more people 
see the point in doing this now.

Thinking back to your interview the other day, you mentioned using EOMA-68 (or 
another EOMA specification) with digital cameras, and I must admit to have 
been thinking about this myself recently, what with the "cameras are just 
computers now" rhetoric one reads when perusing camera/photography discussion 
forums (along with the retort that certain cameras "are only computers, not 
cameras"). Matters got compounded somewhat when Samsung decided to retreat 
from interchangeable lens camera production, according to vague announcements, 
behavioural observations, and the occasional rumour.

I'd also been thinking a bit about existing PCMCIA/CardBus devices, and your 
mention of a card that fits into a camera and which provides ports for USB 
devices finally reminded me to dig out a card that I'd been thinking of, one 
that you might be amused/interested to see again. So I took the liberty of 
adding a page to the wiki:

http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/usb_port_card

Feel free to move or remove it if you don't think it fits in. (Or, indeed, to 
copy the image into the wiki as an attachment to keep the content in one 
place.)

The PCMCIA card size occupies about the same area as the screen on my camera, 
which is smaller than many DSLRs, and so the idea shouldn't be regarded as 
particularly crazy.

Paul


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Mon Feb  1 21:16:37 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 21:16:37 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem report
In-Reply-To: <201602011656.30143.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <CAPweEDwXfd321kzbavOxjAVMTpgWs1x9tN-m5jyQdhassVjzsw@mail.gmail.com>
	<201602011656.30143.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDyJXUvppzaDB592n4ap0y-1Ur4cy0HE7DFtQ_StVT0Rww@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:56 PM, Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk> wrote:
> On Monday 1. February 2016 15.14.56 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>> http://rhombus-tech.net/articles/fosdem2016/
>>
>> awesome.  i'm completely out of steam now, happily relaxing at the
>> 2go4 hostel, going ice-skating this evening and back in den haag
>> tomorrow :)
>
> Nice report and a nice experience, it would seem! Hopefully, a lot more people
> see the point in doing this now.
>
> Thinking back to your interview the other day, you mentioned using EOMA-68 (or
> another EOMA specification) with digital cameras, and I must admit to have
> been thinking about this myself recently, what with the "cameras are just
> computers now" rhetoric one reads when perusing camera/photography discussion
> forums (along with the retort that certain cameras "are only computers, not
> cameras"). Matters got compounded somewhat when Samsung decided to retreat
> from interchangeable lens camera production, according to vague announcements,
> behavioural observations, and the occasional rumour.

 someone suggested doing digital-signing of pictures so that the
editor (or the BBC) would know that it was an official journalist who
took the picture.  imagine a riot where the journalist takes pictures
uploaded in real-time over 3G or WIFI, then converts to taking
camcorder style, and gathers evidence of police brutality.  but
because it is in real-time the police commisioner calls up urgently to
the riot police to stop their attacks... because the pictures are
going out live in real-time.


> I'd also been thinking a bit about existing PCMCIA/CardBus devices, and your
> mention of a card that fits into a camera and which provides ports for USB
> devices finally reminded me to dig out a card that I'd been thinking of, one
> that you might be amused/interested to see again. So I took the liberty of
> adding a page to the wiki:
>
> http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/usb_port_card
>
> Feel free to move or remove it if you don't think it fits in. (Or, indeed, to
> copy the image into the wiki as an attachment to keep the content in one
> place.)

yeah this is basically the pass-through concept.

> The PCMCIA card size occupies about the same area as the screen on my camera,
> which is smaller than many DSLRs, and so the idea shouldn't be regarded as
> particularly crazy.
>
> Paul
>
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk


From wookey at wookware.org  Mon Feb  1 22:22:53 2016
From: wookey at wookware.org (Wookey)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 22:22:53 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>

+++ Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton [2016-01-26 09:50 +0000]:
> wookey do you know if anyone from the arm64 vero team are going to be
> in brussels?  it would be nice to be able to say "hello this is a
> low-power laptop blah blah... and if you want a higher-end one you
> want to talk to _these_ people right here..." - i'll ask the
> powerpc-laptop people as well

Sorry - didn't see this message in time. The main drivers (Andy
Simpkins, Steve McIntyre and Daniel Silverstone) were all not there
this year. Leif Lindholm was present.

Thing is, that project is stalled because a) Andy is working on both
another project and deisgning/building a new house and b) they have
failed to get AMD to commit to chip supply. So currently your design
is looking a lot more like it might actually happen than theirs.

Good to see you at the weekend, and have a 'heft' of the machine. It
was nice :-) I feel inspired to update my eoma card and print some
parts...

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM
http://wookware.org/
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From lkcl at lkcl.net  Tue Feb  2 20:10:27 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 20:10:27 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 10:22 PM, Wookey <wookey at wookware.org> wrote:
> +++ Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton [2016-01-26 09:50 +0000]:
>> wookey do you know if anyone from the arm64 vero team are going to be
>> in brussels?  it would be nice to be able to say "hello this is a
>> low-power laptop blah blah... and if you want a higher-end one you
>> want to talk to _these_ people right here..." - i'll ask the
>> powerpc-laptop people as well
>
> Sorry - didn't see this message in time. The main drivers (Andy
> Simpkins, Steve McIntyre and Daniel Silverstone) were all not there
> this year. Leif Lindholm was present.

 if you speak to them please do mention that the casework's there for
them to adapt.  i honestly doubt very much that they will be able to
source the required connectors that will be the right height.  laptops
are designed PCB+case+connectors - many connectors are *custom-made*
so that they fit exactly at the right height (mid-mounted), and the
tooling is often scrapped when the laptop itself is end-of-life.

> Thing is, that project is stalled because a) Andy is working on both
> another project and deisgning/building a new house and b) they have
> failed to get AMD to commit to chip supply. So currently your design
> is looking a lot more like it might actually happen than theirs.

*sigh* yeahh, it's quite likely that AMD hasn't actually got *anyone*
who's committed to it... which is precisely why they should give them
some ICs due to the extremely high strategic value (debian developers
for goodness sake!!)... but can you get that across to AMD's marketing
and Directors?  mmm...

> Good to see you at the weekend, and have a 'heft' of the machine.

 yeah you too - it's been a bit weird focussing so heavily on this
stuff for such a long time.

 1.1kg - it's peanuts.  i'm kinda confused as to why 15.6in laptops
are 2.3kg and above.

> It was nice :-) I feel inspired to update my eoma card and print some
> parts...

 awesome.  well, the rev 1.1 card that you have should work with a bit
of modification - there's a couple of jumper leads you need to run,
i've modded one here - you'll only be able to run the LCD at 100%
brightness unless you compile up a software-PCM linux kernel module
and do a few other tricks.... just running 3.3v to the pin that's now
allocated as "PWM0" is the easiest temporary solution.

 but, it would only be needed for a few months: i need to do another
production run (rev 2.5) of the EOMA68-A20 PCB so there are more on
the way.  ethernet is going, so you need to be prepared for that, and
have a USB-ETH dongle kicking around.

l.


From wookey at wookware.org  Wed Feb  3 18:33:32 2016
From: wookey at wookware.org (Wookey)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 18:33:32 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>

+++ Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton [2016-02-02 20:10 +0000]:
> > Thing is, that project is stalled because a) Andy is working on both
> > another project and deisgning/building a new house and b) they have
> > failed to get AMD to commit to chip supply. So currently your design
> > is looking a lot more like it might actually happen than theirs.
> 
> *sigh* yeahh, it's quite likely that AMD hasn't actually got *anyone*
> who's committed to it... 

Softiron is selling hardware based on the AMD seattle,
http://softiron.co.uk/products/ and there are 96board husky prototypes
which I expect to be actually available as a board 'RSN'.
So they have at least one real customer.

> which is precisely why they should give them
> some ICs due to the extremely high strategic value (debian developers
> for goodness sake!!)... but can you get that across to AMD's marketing
> and Directors?  mmm...

They did indeed agree in priciple but it neve actually
happenned. There was much ructions at ADM last year I think. They had
more important things to worry about.

> > Good to see you at the weekend, and have a 'heft' of the machine.
> 
>  yeah you too - it's been a bit weird focussing so heavily on this
> stuff for such a long time.
> 
>  1.1kg - it's peanuts.  i'm kinda confused as to why 15.6in laptops
> are 2.3kg and above.

More performance, bigger batteries, fans, heatsinks, ABS cases, metal
frame in decent ones (the PItop shows how much heavier an ABS
injection-moulded case is - A brick in comparison). Yours feels too
light to be very robust, but I guess we'll see. The lightness helps
itself to some degree, in the way of insects being unaffected by
falls.

I'm used to a solid lenovo X-series...
 
> > It was nice :-) I feel inspired to update my eoma card and print some
> > parts...
> 
>  awesome.  well, the rev 1.1 card that you have should work with a bit
> of modification - there's a couple of jumper leads you need to run,
> i've modded one here - you'll only be able to run the LCD at 100%
> brightness unless you compile up a software-PCM linux kernel module
> and do a few other tricks.... just running 3.3v to the pin that's now
> allocated as "PWM0" is the easiest temporary solution.

I had a quick look but failed to find details of the screen, keyboard,
boards and 3D parts online, other than scattered through many mailing
list-messages. Never mind info like the above. Is there a page that
actually has the info someone keen would need to get started?
 
>  but, it would only be needed for a few months: i need to do another
> production run (rev 2.5) of the EOMA68-A20 PCB so there are more on
> the way.  ethernet is going, so you need to be prepared for that, and
> have a USB-ETH dongle kicking around.

Boo. But yes OK, that's do-able.

What I really want is either an A64 EOMA68 board, or a baseboard
that'll take the pine64...(as discussed, subject to heat
limits). Still, that's all 'just hardware' (ha ha).

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM
http://wookware.org/
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From lkcl at lkcl.net  Wed Feb  3 19:02:10 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 19:02:10 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 6:33 PM, Wookey <wookey at wookware.org> wrote:
> +++ Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton [2016-02-02 20:10 +0000]:
>> > Thing is, that project is stalled because a) Andy is working on both
>> > another project and deisgning/building a new house and b) they have
>> > failed to get AMD to commit to chip supply. So currently your design
>> > is looking a lot more like it might actually happen than theirs.
>>
>> *sigh* yeahh, it's quite likely that AMD hasn't actually got *anyone*
>> who's committed to it...
>
> Softiron is selling hardware based on the AMD seattle,

 ok great!

>>  yeah you too - it's been a bit weird focussing so heavily on this
>> stuff for such a long time.
>>
>>  1.1kg - it's peanuts.  i'm kinda confused as to why 15.6in laptops
>> are 2.3kg and above.
>
> More performance, bigger batteries, fans, heatsinks, ABS cases, metal
> frame in decent ones (the PItop shows how much heavier an ABS
> injection-moulded case is - A brick in comparison). Yours feels too
> light to be very robust, but I guess we'll see. The lightness helps
> itself to some degree, in the way of insects being unaffected by
> falls.

 i kinda intuitively / subconsciously must have thought of that, i did
know of the concept of "mass decompounding" as applied to cars.  the
hinge part is my main concern - but i guess that one part could always
be either cast in aluminium (look up julia longtin's work - phil
mentioned her to me a while back) or just done in either the
high-temperature ABS from proto-pasta or perhaps the 300C
polycarbonate used for plastic bottles... lots of experimenting,
plenty of time.

> I'm used to a solid lenovo X-series...
>
>> > It was nice :-) I feel inspired to update my eoma card and print some
>> > parts...
>>
>>  awesome.  well, the rev 1.1 card that you have should work with a bit
>> of modification - there's a couple of jumper leads you need to run,
>> i've modded one here - you'll only be able to run the LCD at 100%
>> brightness unless you compile up a software-PCM linux kernel module
>> and do a few other tricks.... just running 3.3v to the pin that's now
>> allocated as "PWM0" is the easiest temporary solution.
>
> I had a quick look but failed to find details of the screen, keyboard,
> boards and 3D parts online, other than scattered through many mailing
> list-messages. Never mind info like the above. Is there a page that
> actually has the info someone keen would need to get started?

 eek - sorry :)  i usually maintain a page that has them but haven't
put it together yet - give me a mo and it'll be at
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/

 the boards i want to do another run in the next few weeks, wookey, so
if you'd like to buy some you'd be most welcome.  i don't want to get
too many done in case they need modifications.  they're only
single-sided 2-layer 1.5mm thick so are "bog standard" i.e. dirt
cheap.  i think this time i'll get them made up rather than do the
component assembly myself.

>>  but, it would only be needed for a few months: i need to do another
>> production run (rev 2.5) of the EOMA68-A20 PCB so there are more on
>> the way.  ethernet is going, so you need to be prepared for that, and
>> have a USB-ETH dongle kicking around.
>
> Boo. But yes OK, that's do-able.

 (i put USB 3.1 which is 10gbit/sec in place instead - 8 wires for
only GbE or 8 wires for a general-purpose 10gbit/sec bus.... no
contest)

> What I really want is either an A64 EOMA68 board, or a baseboard
> that'll take the pine64...(as discussed, subject to heat
> limits). Still, that's all 'just hardware' (ha ha).

 yeh the EOMA68-A64 is on the cards.... i even have a pine64 on order
so i can check GPL compliance... *but* i just learned from someone at
fosdem2016 that f*****g allwinner have done it *again* - this time
something related to DDR3 RAM initialisation.  i can't recall the
exact details (was a bit of a mad rush) but i am *not* going to waste
my time any more on pursuing GPL violations.

 so if someone can confirm whether this is true or not, i'll
re-prioritise the allwinner A64 board back to the top of the TODO
list.

l.


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Wed Feb  3 19:28:20 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 19:28:20 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDw_FTakGnjKq+rusTDVPDO-2yE9JOA-27o83SQryHLzDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
<lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 6:33 PM, Wookey <wookey at wookware.org> wrote:
>> More performance, bigger batteries, fans, heatsinks, ABS cases, metal
>> frame in decent ones (the PItop shows how much heavier an ABS

 ... i also am relying on the (unnecessarily overengineered) solid
strength of the 1.5mm PCBs themselves, and will use double-sided tape
to stick the bamboo plywood to it. i'm not expecting anything to
break, there.

 also, the front and back parts i use the same internal buttressing
that you get inside old cathedrals.  it's pretty freakishly strong,
and the profile is dual-curved anyway.  to get a 5mm bend i have to
apply enough pressure so that my thumbs actually hurt.  the screen
edges however i'm relying on the metal case of the LCD, which i
believe is pretty much the case for every single LCD lid out there.

>> I had a quick look but failed to find details of the screen, keyboard,
>> boards and 3D parts online, other than scattered through many mailing
>> list-messages. Never mind info like the above. Is there a page that
>> actually has the info someone keen would need to get started?
>
>  eek - sorry :)  i usually maintain a page that has them but haven't
> put it together yet - give me a mo and it'll be at
> http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/

 ok that's done - if you want some schematics etc give me a bit longer
as i have to redo all three PCBs, as they all need corrections.

 * PCB1 i've almost finished the 2nd revision, it was actually only
minor changes needed (except for getting the USB and LVDS connectors
backwards... *sigh*...)

 * PCB2 i have to redo to use the new Frida LCD.  the one from the old
supplier, bless 'em, they _just_ didn't get it that you actually have
to provide... y'know... feedback to the customer, and an accurate
datasheet?

 * PCB3 i have to almost completely redo from scratch, using the
bq24193 and an appropriate QFN coulomb battery monitor IC.  it's only
2 ICs and about 40 components but i need clarification from TI on how
to deal with the I2C interface (which appears to be a fixed 1.8v
design... *sigh*...)

 l.


From wookey at wookware.org  Wed Feb  3 22:52:08 2016
From: wookey at wookware.org (Wookey)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 22:52:08 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160203225208.GK19984@mail.wookware.org>

+++ Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton [2016-02-03 19:02 +0000]:
> > I had a quick look but failed to find details of the screen, keyboard,
> > boards and 3D parts online, other than scattered through many mailing
> > list-messages. Never mind info like the above. Is there a page that
> > actually has the info someone keen would need to get started?
> 
>  eek - sorry :)  i usually maintain a page that has them but haven't
> put it together yet - give me a mo and it'll be at
> http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/

OK, cheers. So battery and touchpad not available in ones and keyboard
suppiers are idiots. So some associated faff there :-)

>  the boards i want to do another run in the next few weeks, wookey, so
> if you'd like to buy some you'd be most welcome.  i don't want to get
> too many done in case they need modifications.  they're only
> single-sided 2-layer 1.5mm thick so are "bog standard" i.e. dirt
> cheap.  i think this time i'll get them made up rather than do the
> component assembly myself.

I am interested, but I was a little put off by the prices you listed
last time at $120-150 per board and 3 boards. I don't call that 'dirt
cheap'. That's $430 + screen+keyboard+panel+printing, which is a
little more than I want to pay for just 'mucking about'. I could
afford it but a) I'm tight and b) I don't like buying electronics
unless I'm fairly sure I'm going to get decent use out of it (all that
eco-thinking). And ultimately a 2G RAM laptop is 'toy' these days,
because 'browsers'. So I was waiting to see if the upgradability
aspect looked likely to actually solve this issue, and I have a pile
of other half-started projects so don't _actually_ need any more :-)

So, er. 'maybe' :-) How much and when?

>  (i put USB 3.1 which is 10gbit/sec in place instead - 8 wires for
> only GbE or 8 wires for a general-purpose 10gbit/sec bus.... no
> contest)

Makes sense.
 
> > What I really want is either an A64 EOMA68 board, or a baseboard
> > that'll take the pine64...(as discussed, subject to heat
> > limits). Still, that's all 'just hardware' (ha ha).
> 
>  yeh the EOMA68-A64 is on the cards.... i even have a pine64 on order
> so i can check GPL compliance... *but* i just learned from someone at
> fosdem2016 that f*****g allwinner have done it *again* - this time
> something related to DDR3 RAM initialisation.  i can't recall the
> exact details (was a bit of a mad rush) but i am *not* going to waste
> my time any more on pursuing GPL violations.

>  so if someone can confirm whether this is true or not, i'll
> re-prioritise the allwinner A64 board back to the top of the TODO
> list.

Karsten Merker explained this at some length after my talk (he has a
pine). Allwinner's first-stage (non free, probbaly not even
redistributable) bootloader initialises the RAM, but we have no docs
to do it in uboot/uefi. Someone cut out the blob and linked it in
which works, but that's not redistributable either. So yes RAM init is
a roadblock until we can get someone at AW to tell us how to do it, or
it's otherwise revenged.

I was going to try and lean on them from the Linaro end (Connect in
March) and see if we can get any joy, but it may well be difficult.

Doing your own A64 board may well not help as I think the RAM is in
the A64 package and they'll no doubt give you the same magic
bootloader and no real docs.

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM
http://wookware.org/
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From lkcl at lkcl.net  Wed Feb  3 23:47:20 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 23:47:20 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <20160203225208.GK19984@mail.wookware.org>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203225208.GK19984@mail.wookware.org>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 10:52 PM, Wookey <wookey at wookware.org> wrote:
> +++ Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton [2016-02-03 19:02 +0000]:
>> > I had a quick look but failed to find details of the screen, keyboard,
>> > boards and 3D parts online, other than scattered through many mailing
>> > list-messages. Never mind info like the above. Is there a page that
>> > actually has the info someone keen would need to get started?
>>
>>  eek - sorry :)  i usually maintain a page that has them but haven't
>> put it together yet - give me a mo and it'll be at
>> http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/
>
> OK, cheers. So battery and touchpad not available in ones and keyboard
> suppiers are idiots. So some associated faff there :-)

 yyeahh... there's a whole stack of that

>>  the boards i want to do another run in the next few weeks, wookey, so
>> if you'd like to buy some you'd be most welcome.  i don't want to get
>> too many done in case they need modifications.  they're only
>> single-sided 2-layer 1.5mm thick so are "bog standard" i.e. dirt
>> cheap.  i think this time i'll get them made up rather than do the
>> component assembly myself.
>
> I am interested, but I was a little put off by the prices you listed
> last time at $120-150 per board and 3 boards.

 a qty 5 figure is $1700 for the CPU Cards (including components and
assembly).  a qty 5 figure for these 2-layer single-sided PCBs is
going to be waaay less than that.  i'd put a guess of around $60 for
PCB1, $50 for PCB2 and $50 for PCB3.  massive difference - just
because of using simple 2-layer and 1.5mm.

 the $120-150 was because i was using eurocircuits.  i think it was
around that much for PCB1 (qty 2).  i'll get everything done in china
this time.

> I don't call that 'dirt
> cheap'. That's $430 + screen+keyboard+panel+printing, which is a
> little more than I want to pay for just 'mucking about'.

 i added up a rough MOQ 200-1k figure today and it came out to a BOM
of around $190, excluding assembly costs.  which honestly isn't that
big a difference from the qty5 figure.

> I could
> afford it but a) I'm tight and b) I don't like buying electronics
> unless I'm fairly sure I'm going to get decent use out of it (all that
> eco-thinking).

 good for you!  so the question becomes: is it worthwhile for you to
spend the time as an early adopter, to help "prove the concept" - i'm
pretty sure it'd be possible to find a home for the end result (i have
to give one to dr stallman for example).

> And ultimately a 2G RAM laptop is 'toy' these days,
> because 'browsers'.

 *sigh* tell me about it...  bear in mind this is only a 1366x768 LCD.

> So I was waiting to see if the upgradability
> aspect looked likely to actually solve this issue, and I have a pile
> of other half-started projects so don't _actually_ need any more :-)
>
 haha

> So, er. 'maybe' :-) How much and when?

 let me work it out more accurately, likely timeframe 2-3 months.  i'd
like it to be before 2 months as i'm leaving den haag end of march.

>>  so if someone can confirm whether this is true or not, i'll
>> re-prioritise the allwinner A64 board back to the top of the TODO
>> list.
>
> Karsten Merker explained this at some length after my talk (he has a
> pine). Allwinner's first-stage (non free, probbaly not even
> redistributable) bootloader initialises the RAM, but we have no docs
> to do it in uboot/uefi. Someone cut out the blob and linked it in
> which works, but that's not redistributable either. So yes RAM init is
> a roadblock until we can get someone at AW to tell us how to do it, or
> it's otherwise revenged.

 you've seen the lichee A64 source code from the a64 sdk, right?
links and mirrors were discussed here about 2 months ago, but i'm
seeing full source including "init_DRAM" which all looks fine... i
mean they forgot (again) to put a GPL header on the file (mctl_hal.c)
but other than that it looks fine... let me just upload the u-boot
source that i have here to hands.com... here y'go:

http://hands.com/~lkcl/u-boot-2014.07.tgz

can you put me in touch with karsten?

> I was going to try and lean on them from the Linaro end (Connect in
> March) and see if we can get any joy, but it may well be difficult.

 well let's see if that source (which includes boot0 full source, it
seems - no .o or .a files) does the trick, first.

l.


From wookey at wookware.org  Thu Feb  4 00:27:32 2016
From: wookey at wookware.org (Wookey)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 00:27:32 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203225208.GK19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160204002731.GN19984@mail.wookware.org>

+++ Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton [2016-02-03 23:47 +0000]:
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 10:52 PM, Wookey <wookey at wookware.org> wrote:

> a qty 5 figure for these 2-layer single-sided PCBs is
> going to be waaay less than that.  i'd put a guess of around $60 for
> PCB1, $50 for PCB2 and $50 for PCB3. 

OK, that's a lot more doable.

> > I could
> > afford it but a) I'm tight and b) I don't like buying electronics
> > unless I'm fairly sure I'm going to get decent use out of it (all that
> > eco-thinking).
> 
>  good for you!  so the question becomes: is it worthwhile for you to
> spend the time as an early adopter, to help "prove the concept" - i'm
> pretty sure it'd be possible to find a home for the end result (i have
> to give one to dr stallman for example).

verses debian cross-compilers, fixing troggle, drawing up a major cave
survey backlog, insulating the rest of this house, flogging the
e-moped taking up space in the shed or getting my humidity/temp
sensors and LED lighting finished :-) I need to retire, and then learn
to start projects at a lower rate than finishing them for a while. :-)

>  you've seen the lichee A64 source code from the a64 sdk, right?
> links and mirrors were discussed here about 2 months ago,

I downloaded it after those mails yes. But not looked inside. 

The sunxi people must know about that?


> can you put me in touch with karsten?

Karsten Merker <merker at debian.org> (be nice to him :-)
 
Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM
http://wookware.org/
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From lkcl at lkcl.net  Thu Feb  4 08:56:48 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 08:56:48 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <20160204002731.GN19984@mail.wookware.org>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203225208.GK19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160204002731.GN19984@mail.wookware.org>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDyER43CVkqmAdUOUUXpBv3TP_wkAfdzGdKW3LRmcrq2iw@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Wookey <wookey at wookware.org> wrote:

> verses debian cross-compilers, fixing troggle, drawing up a major cave
> survey backlog, insulating the rest of this house, flogging the
> e-moped taking up space in the shed or getting my humidity/temp
> sensors and LED lighting finished :-) I need to retire, and then learn
> to start projects at a lower rate than finishing them for a while. :-)

 i have - had - lots of those.  i figured that the ones i never
finished were the ones that were just useful to be because they were
different enough to keep me from going bananas.  the ones that i did
finish were the ones that were _driving_ me bananas... but had some
specific purpose (beyond relaxation / hey-this-is-fun).

 i'm just damn lucky that for this project, it's fun, there's so many
different things to do that i can switch from one to the other and
still not go completely nuts.  i think that might appeal to you too,
wookey.

>>  you've seen the lichee A64 source code from the a64 sdk, right?
>> links and mirrors were discussed here about 2 months ago,
>
> I downloaded it after those mails yes. But not looked inside.
>
> The sunxi people must know about that?

 no idea - when they are running their mailing list on non-SAASS
infrastructure i'll subscribe to it.

>> can you put me in touch with karsten?
>
> Karsten Merker <merker at debian.org> (be nice to him :-)

awesome - turns out i have him in email history so i appear to have
talked with him before.  i wonder how long i can resist the temptation
to do a search through old mail to find out what... :)

 l.


From gacuest at gmail.com  Thu Feb  4 18:08:39 2016
From: gacuest at gmail.com (GaCuest)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 19:08:39 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203225208.GK19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.56b393a8.6b8b4567.121@MBPdeMiaMendoza>

En 4 de febrero de 2016 en 0:47:41, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton (lkcl at lkcl.net) escrito:
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 10:52 PM, Wookey wrote:
> > +++ Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton [2016-02-03 19:02 +0000]:
> >> > I had a quick look but failed to find details of the screen, keyboard,
> >> > boards and 3D parts online, other than scattered through many mailing
> >> > list-messages. Never mind info like the above. Is there a page that
> >> > actually has the info someone keen would need to get started?
> >>
> >> eek - sorry :) i usually maintain a page that has them but haven't
> >> put it together yet - give me a mo and it'll be at
> >> http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/
> >
> > OK, cheers. So battery and touchpad not available in ones and keyboard
> > suppiers are idiots. So some associated faff there :-)
>  
> yyeahh... there's a whole stack of that
>  
> >> the boards i want to do another run in the next few weeks, wookey, so
> >> if you'd like to buy some you'd be most welcome. i don't want to get
> >> too many done in case they need modifications. they're only
> >> single-sided 2-layer 1.5mm thick so are "bog standard" i.e. dirt
> >> cheap. i think this time i'll get them made up rather than do the
> >> component assembly myself.
> >
> > I am interested, but I was a little put off by the prices you listed
> > last time at $120-150 per board and 3 boards.
>  
> a qty 5 figure is $1700 for the CPU Cards (including components and
> assembly). a qty 5 figure for these 2-layer single-sided PCBs is
> going to be waaay less than that. i'd put a guess of around $60 for
> PCB1, $50 for PCB2 and $50 for PCB3. massive difference - just
> because of using simple 2-layer and 1.5mm.
>  
> the $120-150 was because i was using eurocircuits. i think it was
> around that much for PCB1 (qty 2). i'll get everything done in china
> this time.
>  
> > I don't call that 'dirt
> > cheap'. That's $430 + screen+keyboard+panel+printing, which is a
> > little more than I want to pay for just 'mucking about'.
>  
> i added up a rough MOQ 200-1k figure today and it came out to a BOM
> of around $190, excluding assembly costs. which honestly isn't that
> big a difference from the qty5 figure.
>  
> > I could
> > afford it but a) I'm tight and b) I don't like buying electronics
> > unless I'm fairly sure I'm going to get decent use out of it (all that
> > eco-thinking).
>  
> good for you! so the question becomes: is it worthwhile for you to
> spend the time as an early adopter, to help "prove the concept" - i'm
> pretty sure it'd be possible to find a home for the end result (i have
> to give one to dr stallman for example).
> 

Well, maybe the problem is that the project initially was too ambitious 
for a small company.

I remember when EOMA-68 would be sold in stores and you could 
put it on any kind of device. It was a very good idea, but very difficult 
to do (at least without the money of a big company).

The problem is that people will be reluctant to buy a computer with 
Allwinner A20. Even the people will be reluctant to buy a computer 
without Windows or Linux (x86).

Perhaps it would be interesting to establish requirements for 
software and minimum hardware requirements as did 96boards.

> > And ultimately a 2G RAM laptop is 'toy' these days,
> > because 'browsers'.
>  
> *sigh* tell me about it... bear in mind this is only a 1366x768 LCD.
>  
> > So I was waiting to see if the upgradability
> > aspect looked likely to actually solve this issue, and I have a pile
> > of other half-started projects so don't _actually_ need any more :-)
> >
> haha
>  
> > So, er. 'maybe' :-) How much and when?
>  
> let me work it out more accurately, likely timeframe 2-3 months. i'd
> like it to be before 2 months as i'm leaving den haag end of march.
>  
> >> so if someone can confirm whether this is true or not, i'll
> >> re-prioritise the allwinner A64 board back to the top of the TODO
> >> list.
> >
> > Karsten Merker explained this at some length after my talk (he has a
> > pine). Allwinner's first-stage (non free, probbaly not even
> > redistributable) bootloader initialises the RAM, but we have no docs
> > to do it in uboot/uefi. Someone cut out the blob and linked it in
> > which works, but that's not redistributable either. So yes RAM init is
> > a roadblock until we can get someone at AW to tell us how to do it, or
> > it's otherwise revenged.
>  
> you've seen the lichee A64 source code from the a64 sdk, right?
> links and mirrors were discussed here about 2 months ago, but i'm
> seeing full source including "init_DRAM" which all looks fine... i
> mean they forgot (again) to put a GPL header on the file (mctl_hal.c)
> but other than that it looks fine... let me just upload the u-boot
> source that i have here to hands.com... here y'go:
>  
> http://hands.com/~lkcl/u-boot-2014.07.tgz
>  
> can you put me in touch with karsten?
>  
> > I was going to try and lean on them from the Linaro end (Connect in
> > March) and see if we can get any joy, but it may well be difficult.
>  
> well let's see if that source (which includes boot0 full source, it
> seems - no .o or .a files) does the trick, first.
>  
> l.
>  
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk



From lkcl at lkcl.net  Thu Feb  4 18:31:08 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 18:31:08 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <etPan.56b393a8.6b8b4567.121@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203225208.GK19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<etPan.56b393a8.6b8b4567.121@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwUHD2PJu-dbQzHihEV-P39ANpeahqr8APD5t1e5COoVw@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 6:08 PM, GaCuest <gacuest at gmail.com> wrote:

>> good for you! so the question becomes: is it worthwhile for you to
>> spend the time as an early adopter, to help "prove the concept" - i'm
>> pretty sure it'd be possible to find a home for the end result (i have
>> to give one to dr stallman for example).
>>
>
> Well, maybe the problem is that the project initially was too ambitious
> for a small company.
>
> I remember when EOMA-68 would be sold in stores and you could
> put it on any kind of device. It was a very good idea, but very difficult
> to do (at least without the money of a big company).

 not really.  remember that i am doing this as a very long-term
project.  it's not a "if it doesn't succeed in the first 8 months give
up and go do something else" project.

> The problem is that people will be reluctant to buy a computer with
> Allwinner A20. Even the people will be reluctant to buy a computer
> without Windows or Linux (x86).

 the entire EOMA68 concept is based around upgradeability.  i *don't
care* that the A20 is "old" - it's "good enough".  and in the future,
because of the upgradeability, other SoCs will be along and will fit
into the form-factor - double the RAM, double the speed, double the
storage.

 remember, this is *not* a "give up after 6-8 months" project, it's a
"remain committed for the next 10-12 years" project.

> Perhaps it would be interesting to establish requirements for
> software and minimum hardware requirements as did 96boards.

 no.  absolutely not.  ok, clarification: the standard defines the
minimum hardware requirements, in terms of what interfaces MUST be
provided (even if they're lower speed).

 but software-wise: how can you define minimum software requirements
for a pass-through card?  you can't.  how can you define minimum
software requirements for an FPGA-based card?  you can't.

 the whole point of the exercise is that there should be a *range* of
CPU Cards.  i've discovered a $3.50 SoC from Ingenic that has 128mb of
built-in RAM.  it's possible to create a 2-layer PCB based around it.
total BOM could well be around the $8 mark.

 ... should i define "minimum software requirements" that exclude the
possibility of creating such a low-cost CPU Card?  hell no!!

 now, if that $3.50 SoC happened not to have the required SD/MMC
interface, or happened not to have 18-pin RGB/TTL which could do
1366x768, or anything else, *then* it automatically gets excluded.

 bottom line i'm happy with the way things are with EOMA68, and i
trust that there will be a huge range of SoCs in the future that will
fit even the highest-end requirements and cost well over $200, as well
as fitting people's needs at the lower end as well.

l.


From paul at boddie.org.uk  Thu Feb  4 20:10:33 2016
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 21:10:33 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <etPan.56b393a8.6b8b4567.121@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<etPan.56b393a8.6b8b4567.121@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
Message-ID: <201602042110.34438.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Thursday 4. February 2016 19.08.39 GaCuest wrote:
> 
> Well, maybe the problem is that the project initially was too ambitious 
> for a small company.
> 
> I remember when EOMA-68 would be sold in stores and you could 
> put it on any kind of device. It was a very good idea, but very difficult 
> to do (at least without the money of a big company).
> 
> The problem is that people will be reluctant to buy a computer with 
> Allwinner A20. Even the people will be reluctant to buy a computer 
> without Windows or Linux (x86).

I think we may be moving away from the brand-obsessed era of Wintel once 
again, where people can be persuaded that they don't need Windows or "Intel 
Inside". Indeed, on mainstream news sites, any mention of Windows these days 
seems to be accompanied by hordes of angry people complaining about XP being 
"end-of-lifed".

Although I'm not a fan of the way things like Android have been done, one 
thing that it and other mobile systems have achieved is to make people care 
rather less about the brand name and more about what you can do with the 
device, even if the obsession has now shifted to "app stores" and "app 
ecosystems".

I'd really like to see things like EOMA-68 enable "appliances" and devices 
that serve people's needs quite directly, as opposed to selling them a box of 
tricks and indoctrinating them into believing that technological solutions 
have to be complicated and unreliable.

> Perhaps it would be interesting to establish requirements for 
> software and minimum hardware requirements as did 96boards.

I see that Luke has responded quite robustly to this, but with this initiative 
being rather open-ended, the idea of software requirements sounds like big-
company-consortium material where people write criteria like this to look as 
if they have something to do.

It also provokes a lot of squabbling between people about the "official" 
choice, reminding me a bit of initiatives like Linux Standards Base (if I 
remember it right) where Red Hat technologies were chosen, thus alienating 
everyone else and diminishing the importance of the whole thing.

On Thursday 4. February 2016 19.08.39 GaCuest wrote:
> En 4 de febrero de 2016 en 0:47:41, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
(lkcl at lkcl.net) escrito:
> > On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 10:52 PM, Wookey wrote:
> > >
> > > And ultimately a 2G RAM laptop is 'toy' these days,
> > > because 'browsers'.

I think it's appalling that when you consider the actual information on most 
Web sites, teletext/viewdata pages would get the same job done of 
communicating the information, minus the images, I guess. All of this 
complexity being upheld so that any element in the page can be nudged by one 
pixel at any time for a completely dynamic layout. (Annoyingly, what with the 
"full screen mobile" experience being increasingly the new normal, things like 
needing to reformat the page in real time as windows get gradually resized is 
becoming something of an archaic feature.)

On my 1GB machine, the biggest problems I have, apart from rampant scripts and 
resources needing to be loaded from tens of tracking sites and silos, is the 
depositing of large images that appear to be dynamically scaled in the 
browser, supposedly so that mobile users get the right format served up to 
them, or something. (Responsive design or whatever it is called.)

Anyway, I'll let you get flamed for bringing up the 2GB limit this time. For 
me, it would be easily enough for my needs, which is what I wrote on the topic 
last time for all the good it did me.

Paul


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Thu Feb  4 20:17:05 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2016 20:17:05 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <201602042110.34438.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<etPan.56b393a8.6b8b4567.121@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
	<201602042110.34438.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDyrwPeLc9ec7zYYbywAJSbEaz_1fhfuYfrF01zFjLWjrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk> wrote:

>> Perhaps it would be interesting to establish requirements for
>> software and minimum hardware requirements as did 96boards.

> It also provokes a lot of squabbling between people about the "official"
> choice, reminding me a bit of initiatives like Linux Standards Base (if I
> remember it right) where Red Hat technologies were chosen, thus alienating
> everyone else and diminishing the importance of the whole thing.

 yeah - the arguments all stop when each company can go "mmm.... i
want to create our own branded CPU Card" and they find, amazingly,
that they can do exactly that and nobody's going to stop them.

 at some point i will actually create executable business cards that
have a presentation pre-loaded, and the "traditional" business bits
printed out as a label on the metal case :)


> On my 1GB machine, the biggest problems I have, apart from rampant scripts and
> resources needing to be loaded from tens of tracking sites and silos, is the
> depositing of large images that appear to be dynamically scaled in the
> browser, supposedly so that mobile users get the right format served up to
> them, or something. (Responsive design or whatever it is called.)

 there was an article on slashdot about exactly this, someone released
a variant of a desktop thingy which, by cutting out the crap, reduced
the package size from something mad like 600mb down to only 23mb.

 so you're definitely not the only person to have noticed the madness
of rampant-sized images.

l.


From gacuest at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 09:34:11 2016
From: gacuest at gmail.com (GaCuest)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 10:34:11 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwUHD2PJu-dbQzHihEV-P39ANpeahqr8APD5t1e5COoVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203225208.GK19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<etPan.56b393a8.6b8b4567.121@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
	<CAPweEDwUHD2PJu-dbQzHihEV-P39ANpeahqr8APD5t1e5COoVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.56b46c93.6b8b4567.140@MBPdeMiaMendoza>

En 4 de febrero de 2016 en 19:31:29, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton (lkcl at lkcl.net) escrito:
> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>  
>  
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 6:08 PM, GaCuest wrote:
>  
> >> good for you! so the question becomes: is it worthwhile for you to
> >> spend the time as an early adopter, to help "prove the concept" - i'm
> >> pretty sure it'd be possible to find a home for the end result (i have
> >> to give one to dr stallman for example).
> >>
> >
> > Well, maybe the problem is that the project initially was too ambitious
> > for a small company.
> >
> > I remember when EOMA-68 would be sold in stores and you could
> > put it on any kind of device. It was a very good idea, but very difficult
> > to do (at least without the money of a big company).
>  
> not really. remember that i am doing this as a very long-term
> project. it's not a "if it doesn't succeed in the first 8 months give
> up and go do something else" project.
>  
> > The problem is that people will be reluctant to buy a computer with
> > Allwinner A20. Even the people will be reluctant to buy a computer
> > without Windows or Linux (x86).
>  
> the entire EOMA68 concept is based around upgradeability. i *don't
> care* that the A20 is "old" - it's "good enough". and in the future,
> because of the upgradeability, other SoCs will be along and will fit
> into the form-factor - double the RAM, double the speed, double the
> storage.
>  
> remember, this is *not* a "give up after 6-8 months" project, it's a
> "remain committed for the next 10-12 years" project.


The problem is that if you sell a few units will not have 
money to make more EOMA-68 (or devices) and will also 
be difficult to attract more investors. For example, Aaron sold 
slow and left the project.

And in addition to paying the hardware, you have to pay 
salaries for people who develop software, advertising, and so on. 
So you need a lot of money.

I guess you maybe think the community develop the software, 
but if you sell little units, it is difficult to attract the scene. 
For example, only devices that sell a lot like Raspberry have 
a good scene.


>  
> > Perhaps it would be interesting to establish requirements for
> > software and minimum hardware requirements as did 96boards.
>  
> no. absolutely not. ok, clarification: the standard defines the
> minimum hardware requirements, in terms of what interfaces MUST be
> provided (even if they're lower speed).
>  
> but software-wise: how can you define minimum software requirements
> for a pass-through card? you can't. how can you define minimum
> software requirements for an FPGA-based card? you can't.
>  
> the whole point of the exercise is that there should be a *range* of
> CPU Cards. i've discovered a $3.50 SoC from Ingenic that has 128mb of
> built-in RAM. it's possible to create a 2-layer PCB based around it.
> total BOM could well be around the $8 mark.
>  
> ... should i define "minimum software requirements" that exclude the
> possibility of creating such a low-cost CPU Card? hell no!!
>  
> now, if that $3.50 SoC happened not to have the required SD/MMC
> interface, or happened not to have 18-pin RGB/TTL which could do
> 1366x768, or anything else, *then* it automatically gets excluded.


I understand what you say. I mean that much variety can 
confuse non-expert people. For example, a classification. 
Can anyone buy an EOMA-68 destined for a router and put 
it in a laptop? Not now.

Or you create an OS that suits each device, or you create a 
classification or similar.


>  
> bottom line i'm happy with the way things are with EOMA68, and i
> trust that there will be a huge range of SoCs in the future that will
> fit even the highest-end requirements and cost well over $200, as well
> as fitting people's needs at the lower end as well.
>  
> l.
>  
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk



From lkcl at lkcl.net  Fri Feb  5 11:36:00 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 11:36:00 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <etPan.56b46c93.6b8b4567.140@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203225208.GK19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<etPan.56b393a8.6b8b4567.121@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
	<CAPweEDwUHD2PJu-dbQzHihEV-P39ANpeahqr8APD5t1e5COoVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<etPan.56b46c93.6b8b4567.140@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwbWF-SxCFOwvn2V5q9E_DmwH4AN9RghczEFmN_cZUqRQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 9:34 AM, GaCuest <gacuest at gmail.com> wrote:

>> remember, this is *not* a "give up after 6-8 months" project, it's a
>> "remain committed for the next 10-12 years" project.
>
>
> The problem is that if you sell a few units will not have
> money to make more EOMA-68 (or devices) and will also
> be difficult to attract more investors.

 that is not a problem, because i have sponsors - not investors.
investors demand short-term profits and dividends.  there is a place
for investors, but that place is later.

 also for example: i met someone at fosdem2016 who is willing to pay
cash up-front to purchase a number of early-adopter kits, and he will
go round the world selling those kits, arranging workshops where
people may come along and assemble their products.  those people will
be *delighted* to assemble their own eco-conscious laptop, and the
person sponsoring the kits loves to see that sort of thing happen.

 where you perceive there to be "problem" there is in fact no such
thing.  that is just one door closing and saying "you don't do it this
way, because that's not good for the project.  find another way".

> For example, Aaron sold slow and left the project.

 which says "this is not the right way", and in fact that turns out to
be absolutely correct.  if you recall, aaron's associates attempted to
become the world leading authority on the EOMA68 standard, telling
people for example that "Multi-port SATA would be supported in a
future version of EOMA68".  they were NOT AUTHORISED to make ANY such
misleading statements that could completely destroy four years of
extremely thorough and careful analysis.

 basically they thought that they could take control of the entire
project, and they did not listen to my advice.  many of the lessons
that i had already learned (which took time to learn) they ignored.
and because of the mistakes, aaron ran out of funds before we could
solve the mistakes that had been made.

 but that's ok - we learned some important lessons.  we learned the
ways how *not* to succeed.  and, critically, the people who had tried
to take control of the project were no longer interested in it.


> And in addition to paying the hardware, you have to pay
> salaries for people who develop software, advertising, and so on.
> So you need a lot of money.

 no, not really.  there are other business models.   creative
solutions come out of *not* having a lot of money.  wealth comes from
your own mind, *not* from actual physical cash.

 business is defined as "providing a service and being financially
adequately rewarded for doing so".  there are many many ways to
provide a service that achieves the end-goal.  those ways do not
necessarily *have* to involve "having a lot of money, personally".

 in the past few weeks it's become clear to me that "money" equates
pretty much directly proportionally to "environmental impact".  even
in the case of the ipad 1 which cost only $USD 125 to make, foxconn
charged apple $140, and apple sold it for a whopping $700+, the
discrepancy between the purchase price and the sale price is *still*
an environmental impact because apple had to (a) pay engineers (b) pay
investors (c) invest in environmentally-damaging silicon fabs for the
next generation SoC that went into the iphones and the ipad2.

 so when you say "you need a lot of money", what you are actually
indirectly saying is "you need to make a large amount of environmental
damage in order to get this project off the ground".

 and it is my responsibility to ensure that this project, which is an
eco-conscious one, carefully evaluates options which minimise
environmental impact - i.e. minimise everyone's costs.

 so that's why we're looking at crowd-funding, and the "open hardware"
model, which i've been faithfully following.


> I guess you maybe think the community develop the software,

 i'm *inviting* them to - but if they do not wish to have the exciting
opportunity of being involved with the project, then i will do it
instead.  they will lose the enjoyment of being an early stage
developer, but that's not my problem.

> but if you sell little units, it is difficult to attract the scene.
> For example, only devices that sell a lot like Raspberry have
> a good scene.

 again, you're forgetting that it's important to ramp things up in
stages.  i have mentioned this many many times: i would say that i am
curious as to why you are perceiving that there are only roadblocks
and problems instead of envisioning success, but i'm actually *not*
interested in hearing about the roadblocks and problems that you
envisage.... *UNLESS* you are interested to hear of possible SOLUTIONS
to those roadblocks and problems.

 so i am going to ask you to do something very specific.  if during
the development of the project that you are doing, you have any
specific problems or roadblocks, please discuss them here with an open
mind.

 however if you wish to only say "the EOMA68 project is a failure
because of X Y and Z could not possibly work" i.e. the only thoughts
in your mind are "failure failure failure omg crash problem problem
problem no money no money no money" then i'm going to have to ask you
to stop doing that, ok?

 right now, in the past two messages, they basically summarise as
"this project is a failure, i can't see how it can possibly succeed".
i'm inviting you to turn your thoughts around, and to begin asking, "i
see there is this problem: how do you envision it being solved?" or "i
see this happened, do you perceive it to be a problem or not - what
insights can you share about it?"

 i trust that this is absolutely clear.  if it is not, PLEASE ASK
before sending another message in which you imply that there must be
"no possible solutions", ok?

>>
>> > Perhaps it would be interesting to establish requirements for
>> > software and minimum hardware requirements as did 96boards.
>>
>> no. absolutely not. ok, clarification: the standard defines the
>> minimum hardware requirements, in terms of what interfaces MUST be
>> provided (even if they're lower speed).
>>
>> but software-wise: how can you define minimum software requirements
>> for a pass-through card? you can't. how can you define minimum
>> software requirements for an FPGA-based card? you can't.
>>
>> the whole point of the exercise is that there should be a *range* of
>> CPU Cards. i've discovered a $3.50 SoC from Ingenic that has 128mb of
>> built-in RAM. it's possible to create a 2-layer PCB based around it.
>> total BOM could well be around the $8 mark.
>>
>> ... should i define "minimum software requirements" that exclude the
>> possibility of creating such a low-cost CPU Card? hell no!!
>>
>> now, if that $3.50 SoC happened not to have the required SD/MMC
>> interface, or happened not to have 18-pin RGB/TTL which could do
>> 1366x768, or anything else, *then* it automatically gets excluded.
>
>
> I understand what you say. I mean that much variety can
> confuse non-expert people. For example, a classification.

 such as labels being put on the outside of the boxes, in
colour-coding and so on, and then that colour-coding becomes a
de-facto part of the standard or a pre-arranged part of the standard.
yes, the idea was discussed four years ago.

> Can anyone buy an EOMA-68 destined for a router and put
> it in a laptop? Not now.

 no of course not, because the OS on the router would turn the laptop
*into* a router!  exactly as the product you are developing (a "games
CPU Card") would turn a laptop into a games laptop.  that's the whole
idea: the CPU Cards, with pre-installed OSes, you can buy for specific
purposes and they are less money than they would be to buy the same
monolithic devices from other manufacturers.

 let's envisage the scenario the other way round: why would you put a
dual or quad-core laptop CPU Card into a router "base"?  because you
would want the faster CPU Card to handle traffic encryption, that's
why.  the kinds of 400mhz MIPS processors that go into the low-cost
4-port routers simply cannot handle the decrypt/encrypt of end-to-end
traffic at 100mbit/sec speeds let alone gigabit, whereas a dual or
quad-core processor could easily handle it, especially if it has an
on-board hardware crypto unit.

 would a "traditional" manufacturer make a quad-core router monolithic
box?  of COURSE NOT!  the number of people who would understand its
benefits are not big enough to justify the cost.  however, creative
people such as those we encounter at FOSDEM2016 (one of whom
immediately "got" the concept of using high-end CPU Cards for
end-to-end traffic encryption including WIFI, and running TOR and VPNs
as well) *DO* get it, and they *REALLY* appreciate the freedom and
flexibility that comes with this concept.

 basically there are limitless scenarios that we could not possibly
envisage, which are suddenly opened up, as 3rd party base units are
combined with 3rd party CPU Cards in ways that were never imagined by
*either* manufacturer.

 when i described the "3G CPU Card with Digital SLR Camera" scenario
to someone at FOSDEM2016, the person i told the story to went, "oh
that's really cool, a journalist being able to upload images and video
footage in real-time to their editor and also to the BBC and to
Reuters.  how about adding GPG Digital-Signing to the photos and the
video, so that the BBC and Reuters can tell that the images are coming
from a known journalist's camera?"

 can you imagine approaching a Digital SLR Camera company and saying,
"we'd like you to add GPG Digital-Signing to your Camera OS"???
they'd look at you like you had 2 heads and had your hair tie-dyed in
psychedelic patterns.

 so the only way to achieve that goal on a monolithic designed camera
would be to reverse-engineer the camera.... only to find that the
processor is totally incapable of handling the encryption speed of
real-time video traffic.

 whereas, with a 3rd party general-purpose CPU Card with a
general-purpose OS (such as android, linux or even windows), the BBC,
Reuters, the Journalist or their News Agency could conceivably pay
someone to write the general-purpose software to do the encryption....
*OR* they could most likely find, online, a pre-existing app that does
the job.

 does this start to make it clear?

l.


From gacuest at gmail.com  Fri Feb  5 12:20:07 2016
From: gacuest at gmail.com (GaCuest)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 13:20:07 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwbWF-SxCFOwvn2V5q9E_DmwH4AN9RghczEFmN_cZUqRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203225208.GK19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<etPan.56b393a8.6b8b4567.121@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
	<CAPweEDwUHD2PJu-dbQzHihEV-P39ANpeahqr8APD5t1e5COoVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<etPan.56b46c93.6b8b4567.140@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
	<CAPweEDwbWF-SxCFOwvn2V5q9E_DmwH4AN9RghczEFmN_cZUqRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.56b49377.327b23c6.140@MBPdeMiaMendoza>

En 5 de febrero de 2016 en 12:36:19, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton (lkcl at lkcl.net) escrito:
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 9:34 AM, GaCuest wrote:
>  
> >> remember, this is *not* a "give up after 6-8 months" project, it's a
> >> "remain committed for the next 10-12 years" project.
> >
> >
> > The problem is that if you sell a few units will not have
> > money to make more EOMA-68 (or devices) and will also
> > be difficult to attract more investors.
>  
> that is not a problem, because i have sponsors - not investors.
> investors demand short-term profits and dividends. there is a place
> for investors, but that place is later.
>  
> also for example: i met someone at fosdem2016 who is willing to pay
> cash up-front to purchase a number of early-adopter kits, and he will
> go round the world selling those kits, arranging workshops where
> people may come along and assemble their products. those people will
> be *delighted* to assemble their own eco-conscious laptop, and the
> person sponsoring the kits loves to see that sort of thing happen.
>  
> where you perceive there to be "problem" there is in fact no such
> thing. that is just one door closing and saying "you don't do it this
> way, because that's not good for the project. find another way".
>  
> > For example, Aaron sold slow and left the project.
>  
> which says "this is not the right way", and in fact that turns out to
> be absolutely correct. if you recall, aaron's associates attempted to
> become the world leading authority on the EOMA68 standard, telling
> people for example that "Multi-port SATA would be supported in a
> future version of EOMA68". they were NOT AUTHORISED to make ANY such
> misleading statements that could completely destroy four years of
> extremely thorough and careful analysis.
>  
> basically they thought that they could take control of the entire
> project, and they did not listen to my advice. many of the lessons
> that i had already learned (which took time to learn) they ignored.
> and because of the mistakes, aaron ran out of funds before we could
> solve the mistakes that had been made.
>  
> but that's ok - we learned some important lessons. we learned the
> ways how *not* to succeed. and, critically, the people who had tried
> to take control of the project were no longer interested in it.
>  
>  
> > And in addition to paying the hardware, you have to pay
> > salaries for people who develop software, advertising, and so on.
> > So you need a lot of money.
>  
> no, not really. there are other business models. creative
> solutions come out of *not* having a lot of money. wealth comes from
> your own mind, *not* from actual physical cash.
>  
> business is defined as "providing a service and being financially
> adequately rewarded for doing so". there are many many ways to
> provide a service that achieves the end-goal. those ways do not
> necessarily *have* to involve "having a lot of money, personally".
>  
> in the past few weeks it's become clear to me that "money" equates
> pretty much directly proportionally to "environmental impact". even
> in the case of the ipad 1 which cost only $USD 125 to make, foxconn
> charged apple $140, and apple sold it for a whopping $700+, the
> discrepancy between the purchase price and the sale price is *still*
> an environmental impact because apple had to (a) pay engineers (b) pay
> investors (c) invest in environmentally-damaging silicon fabs for the
> next generation SoC that went into the iphones and the ipad2.
>  
> so when you say "you need a lot of money", what you are actually
> indirectly saying is "you need to make a large amount of environmental
> damage in order to get this project off the ground".
>  
> and it is my responsibility to ensure that this project, which is an
> eco-conscious one, carefully evaluates options which minimise
> environmental impact - i.e. minimise everyone's costs.
>  
> so that's why we're looking at crowd-funding, and the "open hardware"
> model, which i've been faithfully following.
>  
>  
> > I guess you maybe think the community develop the software,
>  
> i'm *inviting* them to - but if they do not wish to have the exciting
> opportunity of being involved with the project, then i will do it
> instead. they will lose the enjoyment of being an early stage
> developer, but that's not my problem.
>  
> > but if you sell little units, it is difficult to attract the scene.
> > For example, only devices that sell a lot like Raspberry have
> > a good scene.
>  
> again, you're forgetting that it's important to ramp things up in
> stages. i have mentioned this many many times: i would say that i am
> curious as to why you are perceiving that there are only roadblocks
> and problems instead of envisioning success, but i'm actually *not*
> interested in hearing about the roadblocks and problems that you
> envisage.... *UNLESS* you are interested to hear of possible SOLUTIONS
> to those roadblocks and problems.
>  
> so i am going to ask you to do something very specific. if during
> the development of the project that you are doing, you have any
> specific problems or roadblocks, please discuss them here with an open
> mind.
>  
> however if you wish to only say "the EOMA68 project is a failure
> because of X Y and Z could not possibly work" i.e. the only thoughts
> in your mind are "failure failure failure omg crash problem problem
> problem no money no money no money" then i'm going to have to ask you
> to stop doing that, ok?
>  
> right now, in the past two messages, they basically summarise as
> "this project is a failure, i can't see how it can possibly succeed".
> i'm inviting you to turn your thoughts around, and to begin asking, "i
> see there is this problem: how do you envision it being solved?" or "i
> see this happened, do you perceive it to be a problem or not - what
> insights can you share about it?"
>  
> i trust that this is absolutely clear. if it is not, PLEASE ASK
> before sending another message in which you imply that there must be
> "no possible solutions", ok?
>  
> >>
> >> > Perhaps it would be interesting to establish requirements for
> >> > software and minimum hardware requirements as did 96boards.
> >>
> >> no. absolutely not. ok, clarification: the standard defines the
> >> minimum hardware requirements, in terms of what interfaces MUST be
> >> provided (even if they're lower speed).
> >>
> >> but software-wise: how can you define minimum software requirements
> >> for a pass-through card? you can't. how can you define minimum
> >> software requirements for an FPGA-based card? you can't.
> >>
> >> the whole point of the exercise is that there should be a *range* of
> >> CPU Cards. i've discovered a $3.50 SoC from Ingenic that has 128mb of
> >> built-in RAM. it's possible to create a 2-layer PCB based around it.
> >> total BOM could well be around the $8 mark.
> >>
> >> ... should i define "minimum software requirements" that exclude the
> >> possibility of creating such a low-cost CPU Card? hell no!!
> >>
> >> now, if that $3.50 SoC happened not to have the required SD/MMC
> >> interface, or happened not to have 18-pin RGB/TTL which could do
> >> 1366x768, or anything else, *then* it automatically gets excluded.
> >
> >
> > I understand what you say. I mean that much variety can
> > confuse non-expert people. For example, a classification.
>  
> such as labels being put on the outside of the boxes, in
> colour-coding and so on, and then that colour-coding becomes a
> de-facto part of the standard or a pre-arranged part of the standard.
> yes, the idea was discussed four years ago.
>  
> > Can anyone buy an EOMA-68 destined for a router and put
> > it in a laptop? Not now.
>  
> no of course not, because the OS on the router would turn the laptop
> *into* a router! exactly as the product you are developing (a "games
> CPU Card") would turn a laptop into a games laptop. that's the whole
> idea: the CPU Cards, with pre-installed OSes, you can buy for specific
> purposes and they are less money than they would be to buy the same
> monolithic devices from other manufacturers.
>  
> let's envisage the scenario the other way round: why would you put a
> dual or quad-core laptop CPU Card into a router "base"? because you
> would want the faster CPU Card to handle traffic encryption, that's
> why. the kinds of 400mhz MIPS processors that go into the low-cost
> 4-port routers simply cannot handle the decrypt/encrypt of end-to-end
> traffic at 100mbit/sec speeds let alone gigabit, whereas a dual or
> quad-core processor could easily handle it, especially if it has an
> on-board hardware crypto unit.
>  
> would a "traditional" manufacturer make a quad-core router monolithic
> box? of COURSE NOT! the number of people who would understand its
> benefits are not big enough to justify the cost. however, creative
> people such as those we encounter at FOSDEM2016 (one of whom
> immediately "got" the concept of using high-end CPU Cards for
> end-to-end traffic encryption including WIFI, and running TOR and VPNs
> as well) *DO* get it, and they *REALLY* appreciate the freedom and
> flexibility that comes with this concept.
>  
> basically there are limitless scenarios that we could not possibly
> envisage, which are suddenly opened up, as 3rd party base units are
> combined with 3rd party CPU Cards in ways that were never imagined by
> *either* manufacturer.
>  
> when i described the "3G CPU Card with Digital SLR Camera" scenario
> to someone at FOSDEM2016, the person i told the story to went, "oh
> that's really cool, a journalist being able to upload images and video
> footage in real-time to their editor and also to the BBC and to
> Reuters. how about adding GPG Digital-Signing to the photos and the
> video, so that the BBC and Reuters can tell that the images are coming
> from a known journalist's camera?"
>  
> can you imagine approaching a Digital SLR Camera company and saying,
> "we'd like you to add GPG Digital-Signing to your Camera OS"???
> they'd look at you like you had 2 heads and had your hair tie-dyed in
> psychedelic patterns.
>  
> so the only way to achieve that goal on a monolithic designed camera
> would be to reverse-engineer the camera.... only to find that the
> processor is totally incapable of handling the encryption speed of
> real-time video traffic.
>  
> whereas, with a 3rd party general-purpose CPU Card with a
> general-purpose OS (such as android, linux or even windows), the BBC,
> Reuters, the Journalist or their News Agency could conceivably pay
> someone to write the general-purpose software to do the encryption....
> *OR* they could most likely find, online, a pre-existing app that does
> the job.
>  
> does this start to make it clear?
>  
> l.
> 


I may have misspoke. In my opinion, the EOMA-68 project is very 
good. The problem is that I see it from a very ambitious view, a 
project to change the world.

Perhaps your view is better. We must be realistic. It is a small 
company, so we have to do the simplest project. First do simple 
devices (one EOMA-68 basic with Allwinner A20 with a simple 
notebook, a simple tablet, a simple games console...) to sell 
between developers and fans of the genre, and then expand 
the concept to ordinary people with more complex and powerful 
devices. And try to do cheap products (at first) to avoid losing 
money if very few units sold.


> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk



From lkcl at lkcl.net  Fri Feb  5 13:21:26 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 13:21:26 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] fosdem2016
In-Reply-To: <etPan.56b49377.327b23c6.140@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
References: <CAPweEDwvO=at_VYuo7fc8D+hwNQAT=q_c3Q5-wBr9HXJ12w_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160125175237.GO29847@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDxW5qnCyBWv_4iayn9KWz-i3c_+YHSi68JtoCSEmaVaZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160201222253.GA17118@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDzk6mk1eGxYnV2OJca1oO0sy=iM38SMbdHHB4WNBjGLsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203183332.GJ19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDyOs09+wqmQPFuwL2RRTkX_Y2XXj=LqyZHB+L83N8L3nA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20160203225208.GK19984@mail.wookware.org>
	<CAPweEDwJEsajNavRw6aTA8i3+ifeLX__TqpacTrBv2pReBH5DQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<etPan.56b393a8.6b8b4567.121@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
	<CAPweEDwUHD2PJu-dbQzHihEV-P39ANpeahqr8APD5t1e5COoVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<etPan.56b46c93.6b8b4567.140@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
	<CAPweEDwbWF-SxCFOwvn2V5q9E_DmwH4AN9RghczEFmN_cZUqRQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<etPan.56b49377.327b23c6.140@MBPdeMiaMendoza>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDyZCgHV6G+uzctpq6mcZfykSyixUSiwNzHV-rK5mtfzEw@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 12:20 PM, GaCuest <gacuest at gmail.com> wrote:

> I may have misspoke. In my opinion, the EOMA-68 project is very
> good. The problem is that I see it from a very ambitious view, a
> project to change the world.

 indeed.  there are a huge number of steps, but the goal is very very
clear to me.

i am not known for thinking small.  i took on microsoft [and they
didn't hire a contract killer to have me taken out - but they _did_
call my boss at Internet Security Systems and ask if they could fire
me.  my boss said, "if we do that, he's just going to carry on.  now,
do you want him on the inside where we can keep an eye on him pissing
out, or do you want him on the outside, annoyed, and pissing in?"] by
network-reverse-engineering their flagship Operating System, NT.

> Perhaps your view is better. We must be realistic. It is a small
> company, so we have to do the simplest project. First do simple
> devices (one EOMA-68 basic with Allwinner A20 with a simple
> notebook, a simple tablet, a simple games console...) to sell
> between developers and fans of the genre, and then expand
> the concept to ordinary people with more complex and powerful
> devices.

 exactly.  and why is this still good? because there is an upgrade
path.  products bought now can be repaired indefinitely (with the
laptop you can go to a public library in the U.S. and 3D-print a
replacement bit of the casework).

 but, also, it's actually really important to start off slow.
problems that occur early on can be fixed.  even a 0.1% returns rate
on mass-volume products is too much, because of the sheer volume
involved that 0.1% means "100,000 products returned".  to get there,
things have to be ramped up carefully.

> And try to do cheap products (at first) to avoid losing
> money if very few units sold.

 or, more to the point, that there are not too many early adopters who
feel that they've been "ripped off", because they instead love the
idea of supporting this project, they have some spare income, they're
happy to put that towards being part of a much larger picture which
will make a positive difference in the world.

 one of the crucial things here is never to think of it as being
"money lost".  money is *never* lost - money is "stored energy"
(potential energy) that empowers people to do things.  money is a
representation of the "value" of the "service" that you (or i)
provide.  we provide "service" to others, and they give us "stored
potential energy" in return.  that "stored potential energy" is equal
(ish) to the *actual* kinetic energy needed to provide that "service".

 once you start thinking of money in terms of "potential [stored]
energy", the mystique and fear - phrases like "losing money" - all
disappear.  you can instead think of a project's goal as being "how
much kinetic and potential energy is needed" and "where is that going
to come from?"

 and it turns out that great ideas have a way of coming together, if
you are persistent enough, and can communicate them well to others.
that's what i did at FOSDEM2016, and i was confident of what i was
talking about because i had the prototype right there in front of me.
*i* believed in what i was doing, so they did as well.

 l.


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sun Feb 14 16:33:43 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 16:33:43 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre laptop early kits: planning
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwrVCYdx2+rgsPX2hNM6uY9T7OObVoeg_P3BUgfsSpeeg@mail.gmail.com>

ok, so in about 2 months i'll be doing a SMALL production run -
absolute maximum of 20 units - of the latest revision EOMA68-A20 CPU
Cards as well as putting together some 2nd revision laptop kits.  it
*might* also be the case - i have to check how many - that we have a
sponsor (a 3d-printer company) for printing out the casework parts,
primarily because these are exceptionally challenging parts and the
sponsor would like to show that the quality of their printers is up to
the task (which it is).  certainly i am pushing the limits of the
mendel90 which is in essence a significantly-improved reprap, as it
is.

at this very early stage i don't want to go above 20 units just in
case i have to do modifications by hand to the PCBs - which, if it
becomes necessary won't be hard (with the 2-layer single-sided
boards): i just don't want to have to spend that much time.

now, i'm *estimating* that the kits will be around the $EUR 400 to
$500 mark, if we _can_ get to 20 then it may be less than that.  i
also have another sponsor who is prepared to buy some kits to sell, so
that the per-unit cost can come down - we just have to see, based on
who'd be interested.

so... who's interested?

l.

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


From laserhawk64 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 14 16:37:33 2016
From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 11:37:33 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre laptop early kits: planning
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwrVCYdx2+rgsPX2hNM6uY9T7OObVoeg_P3BUgfsSpeeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwrVCYdx2+rgsPX2hNM6uY9T7OObVoeg_P3BUgfsSpeeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+kEFNK34QYH1Wk+Wk4bsJEyJJhdwjGyPq-Fw=KS-vFRohKw2Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'd love to have one -- but you'd have to knock a zero off, which I know
ain't gonna happen -- and with good reason!

Grumble grumble mumble I hate having no money grumble mumble grumble.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <
lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:

> ok, so in about 2 months i'll be doing a SMALL production run -
> absolute maximum of 20 units - of the latest revision EOMA68-A20 CPU
> Cards as well as putting together some 2nd revision laptop kits.  it
> *might* also be the case - i have to check how many - that we have a
> sponsor (a 3d-printer company) for printing out the casework parts,
> primarily because these are exceptionally challenging parts and the
> sponsor would like to show that the quality of their printers is up to
> the task (which it is).  certainly i am pushing the limits of the
> mendel90 which is in essence a significantly-improved reprap, as it
> is.
>
> at this very early stage i don't want to go above 20 units just in
> case i have to do modifications by hand to the PCBs - which, if it
> becomes necessary won't be hard (with the 2-layer single-sided
> boards): i just don't want to have to spend that much time.
>
> now, i'm *estimating* that the kits will be around the $EUR 400 to
> $500 mark, if we _can_ get to 20 then it may be less than that.  i
> also have another sponsor who is prepared to buy some kits to sell, so
> that the per-unit cost can come down - we just have to see, based on
> who'd be interested.
>
> so... who's interested?
>
> l.
>
> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>
> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk
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From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sun Feb 14 17:23:06 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 17:23:06 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre laptop early kits: planning
In-Reply-To: <CA+kEFNK34QYH1Wk+Wk4bsJEyJJhdwjGyPq-Fw=KS-vFRohKw2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwrVCYdx2+rgsPX2hNM6uY9T7OObVoeg_P3BUgfsSpeeg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+kEFNK34QYH1Wk+Wk4bsJEyJJhdwjGyPq-Fw=KS-vFRohKw2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDxR5Mpg_eKk6MMwa8ojQ5-tPod+kOQuLZK=RKNZ4_-caw@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Christopher Havel
<laserhawk64 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd love to have one -- but you'd have to knock a zero off, which I know
> ain't gonna happen -- and with good reason!
>
> Grumble grumble mumble I hate having no money grumble mumble grumble.

chris! go get some books on the definition of wealth and on money!
contact me off-list if you're interested.

l.


From laserhawk64 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 14 17:35:56 2016
From: laserhawk64 at gmail.com (Christopher Havel)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 12:35:56 -0500
Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre laptop early kits: planning
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDxR5Mpg_eKk6MMwa8ojQ5-tPod+kOQuLZK=RKNZ4_-caw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwrVCYdx2+rgsPX2hNM6uY9T7OObVoeg_P3BUgfsSpeeg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+kEFNK34QYH1Wk+Wk4bsJEyJJhdwjGyPq-Fw=KS-vFRohKw2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPweEDxR5Mpg_eKk6MMwa8ojQ5-tPod+kOQuLZK=RKNZ4_-caw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+kEFNLERjdsxHBL7dZYuheRoT8aq58tPD2mxC2yF86kKpoyZg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <
lkcl at lkcl.net> wrote:

> ---
> chris! go get some books on the definition of wealth and on money!
> contact me off-list if you're interested.


Isn't it enough to know that I have none of the first and precious little
of the second? ;) Then again, there is such a thing as "too much" -- I
don't fancy being at /either/ extreme...

$50 is one month's entire disposable income, BTW -- so it would have to
include both goods and shipping. It would also leave me with no 'padding'
for 'oops I didn't plan on dropping that' sort of issues... I could live
with that, though, I guess. (Just continuing with the plumbing-grade
reverie, BTW, I fully expect absolutely nothing to come of it.)

...meh, that's enough off-topic material from me for one day, I think.
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From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me  Sun Feb 14 19:08:53 2016
From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander .S.T. Ross)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 19:08:53 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre laptop early kits: planning
In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwrVCYdx2+rgsPX2hNM6uY9T7OObVoeg_P3BUgfsSpeeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPweEDwrVCYdx2+rgsPX2hNM6uY9T7OObVoeg_P3BUgfsSpeeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56C0D0C5.8090406@aross.me>

I'm very keen. priority for my slot goes to devs but other wise ill very
happy have one :D.  Though I would need the laptop case, can pay extra
for that. I assume its better to piggy back on the print job than to try
to print it my self :) or at least it would be a lot more convenient for
me :).

Software wise things are nearly there right?

Looking forward to the day of taking lots of photos of #ILoveEOMA heh


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sun Feb 14 19:49:10 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 19:49:10 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] libre laptop early kits: planning
In-Reply-To: <56C0D0C5.8090406@aross.me>
References: <CAPweEDwrVCYdx2+rgsPX2hNM6uY9T7OObVoeg_P3BUgfsSpeeg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56C0D0C5.8090406@aross.me>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDysaAaNM=gCUMuHH5MbbJ1jzFkt39LQCDBi0gqB73VMCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross
<maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me> wrote:
> I'm very keen. priority for my slot goes to devs but other wise ill very
> happy have one :D.  Though I would need the laptop case, can pay extra
> for that.

 well i'll see how many we get, and we'll see how many the sponsor can do.

> I assume its better to piggy back on the print job than to try
> to print it my self :) or at least it would be a lot more convenient for
> me :).

 honestly it'll save a huge amount of hassle - you will however need
to trim the parts [key files, scalpel] - there are underside supports
that will need removing.  the alternative is to use that water-soluble
plastic as underside support, which also would save a lot of time.

 example: i just printed the BASE_MID part at 0.1mm layer resolution:
it just took 3h15m.  the most extreme part (at 0.1mm layer height) is
the BASE_BACK part (qty 2) which takes just over 4 hours.

 those times can be pretty much cut in 1/2 (or more) by using 0.2mm
layer height... but i found that the curving on the corners means that
you then need extra time "trimming" to get them to fit together,
whereas at 0.1mm layer height it's just a quick "swipe with the file".

 on the new sponsor's 3d printers, it's highly likely that even "swipe
with the file" won't be needed.

 short answer: yes, saves a looot of time if someone else can print
these parts - 0.2mm you're looking at around 8 hours, 0.1mm almost 20
hours.

> Software wise things are nearly there right?

 i've got working keyboard firmware - working being "if you don't type
200wpm it's fine".  trackpad needs doing - it's possible to talk I2C.
about a week's worth of software-writing there and it's all good.

 micro-sd, usb hub, LCD screen, audio - demo'd well over a month ago,
all working.

> Looking forward to the day of taking lots of photos of #ILoveEOMA heh

 :)

> _______________________________________________
> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook at lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netbook at files.phcomp.co.uk


From maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me  Sat Feb 20 17:56:46 2016
From: maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me (Alexander .S.T. Ross)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:56:46 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] VISION | POC21
Message-ID: <56C8A8DE.6040807@aross.me>

http://www.poc21.cc/vision/

"Our objective is to create a space and long-term process that will
unite these pioneers and bring their efforts into a mainstream audience"

thought it might be of interest and to chuck it your way


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sat Feb 20 20:15:38 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 20:15:38 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] tp-link's response to the FCC's new WIFI rules
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwjyYG68M-gkVH2KBGx4TvsNLwBEUOLx+5nPBeh3A8NDw@mail.gmail.com>

http://slashdot.org/submission/5574003/tp-link-confirms-wifi-freedom-is-dead--all-routers-to-be-locked-down%26gpsrc%3Dgplp0&btmpl=popup#identifier

any chance people could click "+" on the "submission" button on this?
the FCC's screwed up - ignored comments from a bunch of experts - and
gone ahead "oh nooo nooo problemmm, nooobody will just lock down the
entire embedded OS" and of course that's exactly what TP-Link has
done, because it's the easiest thing to do.

this applies to embedded boards just as much.  it's now a legal
requirement to DRM-lock the *entire OS* - kernel, bootloader, OS -
*everything* - on embedded boards that happen to have WIFI modules on
them.

l.

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sun Feb 21 07:45:10 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2016 07:45:10 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] VISION | POC21
In-Reply-To: <56C8A8DE.6040807@aross.me>
References: <56C8A8DE.6040807@aross.me>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDw_yWNTsFaE5xCVFAHA=Gs5e3ZGa-iBTnK=W=egTcQEvw@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross
<maillist_arm-netbook at aross.me> wrote:
> http://www.poc21.cc/vision/
>
> "Our objective is to create a space and long-term process that will
> unite these pioneers and bring their efforts into a mainstream audience"
>
> thought it might be of interest and to chuck it your way

appreciated


From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sun Feb 28 03:32:50 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 03:32:50 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] eoma68 laptop casework progress
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwpNaBCmsuOHiGwTVC_CngiSCK8BXGDP3uqGM-LxUoyzw@mail.gmail.com>

hi folks sorry been extremely busy.

i've managed to work out some superb settings for the mendel90, it's
currently operating at *200*mm/sec, with a layer height of 0.15mm, and
the prints are coming out with smooth walls most of the time.  i'm
deeply impressed with the mendel90, now - it's only taken me 18 months
(!!) to get the right settings.

the bamboo plywood is in place, successfully - i put a diagonal cut on
each edge, and a matching groove into each piece of 3d-printed
plastic, only about 0.8mm depth (it's supposed to be 1.4mm but it
prints out at less than that) - and the panels hold perfectly.

not only that but they hold sufficiently well that i decided to use
them for structural support on the screen edge.  the screen hinge has
proved particularly tricky: it's quite a small piece, taking a huge
load because it contains the friction hinge.  turns out that if i jam
the bamboo panel into it (and its neighbouring pieces), the screen
hinge stays still under load.  i'd previously tried all sorts of
tricks to get the screen hinge to "lock" into its neighbouring pieces
and it wasn't working: the plywood does a really good job.

am still making minor adjustments, chewing through PLA like it's no
tomorrow, photos to follow, then they can be sent to crowdsupply.

l.


---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


From kaklik at mlab.cz  Sun Feb 28 19:25:39 2016
From: kaklik at mlab.cz (=?UTF-8?Q?Jakub_K=C3=A1kona?=)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 20:25:39 +0100
Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 integration in to MLAB modular system.
Message-ID: <CAFMG7N6rKtXERo8yqvmCf502mwyyiNP2FvYqorGXyFSEn=7u8A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I am coming to this forum trough that page:
https://www.youmagine.com/designs/libre-hardware-licensed-parametric-laptop-design#activity--comment-create--6082
<https://www.youmagine.com/designs/libre-hardware-licensed-parametric-laptop-design#activity--comment-create--6082
Thanks> Thanks
very much for this great work!

I am interested in EOMA68 project for several years. Althought I am
currently using the ODROID boards in my projects -  one  example is radio
meteor detection station:
http://wiki.mlab.cz/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=cs:designs:rmds:rmds02d_station.jpg

This is a typical candidate of electronic computing device which needs
occasional  hardware upgrade or rapid firmware and configuration change..
Therefore I looking forward for moment when we could integrate the EOMA68
cpu card in our modular system http://www.mlab.cz/
<http://www.mlab.cz/ and> and
after that in to related designs which already exists.

Therefore you can count on me if there were a group order of EOMA68 cards
or an crowdfunding campaign.

We have a long term electronics design experience and quite good contacts
to other electronics manufacturers here in the Czech Republic. I would like
to ask if there were some subtask which we could help with?  If none,  I
will continue to work on related problems such as open-source battery
management and effective solar charging system for portable devices.

But the cooperative development will be the best solution because there are
huge tasks which we need to overcome. Uniform 3D printable laptop is one of
the things which could bring together the open-hardware design community. I
expected it even in case of Novena laptop, but they go to the different
direction focused on performance needed for hacking.

Kaklik
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From lkcl at lkcl.net  Sun Feb 28 22:54:31 2016
From: lkcl at lkcl.net (Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 22:54:31 +0000
Subject: [Arm-netbook] EOMA68 integration in to MLAB modular system.
In-Reply-To: <CAFMG7N6rKtXERo8yqvmCf502mwyyiNP2FvYqorGXyFSEn=7u8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFMG7N6rKtXERo8yqvmCf502mwyyiNP2FvYqorGXyFSEn=7u8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPweEDwC9RELjyqe23nsj+azESEeW_58CXHRnzzvufKuqxQFtw@mail.gmail.com>

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 7:25 PM, Jakub Kákona <kaklik at mlab.cz> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I am coming to this forum trough that page:
> https://www.youmagine.com/designs/libre-hardware-licensed-parametric-laptop-design#activity--comment-create--6082
> Thanks very much for this great work!

 :)

> I am interested in EOMA68 project for several years. Althought I am
> currently using the ODROID boards in my projects -  one  example is radio
> meteor detection station:
> http://wiki.mlab.cz/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=cs:designs:rmds:rmds02d_station.jpg

 cool.  that actually looks really sophisticated, and extremely tidy.

> This is a typical candidate of electronic computing device which needs
> occasional  hardware upgrade or rapid firmware and configuration change..
> Therefore I looking forward for moment when we could integrate the EOMA68
> cpu card in our modular system http://www.mlab.cz/ and after that in to
> related designs which already exists.

 awesome.  you probably get the whole concept, then, and are happy
with the EOMA68 interfaces, and the idea of using low-cost ECs at
around $1.50 to do tasks that are just out of reach of the [simple,
straightforward] EOMA68 set.  ironic that an entire EC is coming in at
a price that's similar to what SPI-based dedicated I/O ICs come in at,
but hey.


> Therefore you can count on me if there were a group order of EOMA68 cards or
> an crowdfunding campaign.

 great - that's really good to hear.

> We have a long term electronics design experience and quite good contacts to
> other electronics manufacturers here in the Czech Republic. I would like to
> ask if there were some subtask which we could help with?  If none,  I will
> continue to work on related problems such as open-source battery management
> and effective solar charging system for portable devices.

 ok, well actually there is a sub-task that i could do with your help
on: i need a 15 watt *single-cell* battery charger / monitor board
which is compliant with the USB-OTG Power specification up to 3A @
5.0V and can be controlled via I2C as to which direction the power
goes... *and* can take DC input at the same time.  i've found the
bq24193, it's the best i could yet find that will do the job.  the
only thing is, its I2C interface is hard-wired to 1.8v and i need 3.0
to 3.3v, so there will be some level-shifting needed there.  it also
will need a battery monitor (coulomb counter) - the STC3115 QFN is
what i had in mind, but if you have something better please do say so.

PCB size needs to be no bigger than 32 x 85mm, 1.5mm thickness, 2
layer *ONLY*, components *ONLY* on one side, no through-hole
components or connectors are allowed, and there is a severe [hard]
height limit of 5.5mm so the only DC connector i could find which can
handle 5A and is within that limit is the PJ-018H-SMT from CUI Inc.

 also, i really loved the solar panel idea and it turns out that the
PJ-018H-SMT has a 3-pin arrangement, so in theory a diode and a solar
panel in series between pins 2 and 3 would provide solar power when
the DC-jack is disconnected.  pin 3 (to which the solar panel would be
wired) would be disconnected when the DC jack is in.  pin 2 is GND.


> But the cooperative development will be the best solution because there are
> huge tasks which we need to overcome. Uniform 3D printable laptop is one of
> the things which could bring together the open-hardware design community. I
> expected it even in case of Novena laptop, but they go to the different
> direction focused on performance needed for hacking.

 i know.  i've spoken to bunnie before.  he is specifically *not*
interested in taking the novena to large volume manufacturing.

 this laptop is designed as a mass-volume user-serviceable
eco-conscious laptop which is continuously repairable and upgradeable,
so that it remains out of landfill for the longest possible length of
time.

l.